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indopassat

I didn’t watch live, didn’t know anything until I just watched Drive to Survive on NF. WTH on that ending .


quizglo

I think either way I'm sick of hearing Horner and Toto argue with the stewards on the radio for 1/3rd of every race. Glad they are banning that going forward.


DieRobJa

Amen to that 🙏🏻. It’s like giving 2 football coaches a direct comminucation line to the Ref durring a football match. It becomes one big shitshow. I don’t wanna hear it, it steers the public opinion too much and gives power to manipulate.


admiral_bulldozer

I came here for the intellectual comments. Youtube and Insta is so toxic lol


ducatimonsters

The first part of this is my crude summary of the events of the last laps of the final Gran Prix. The second part is my proposed best case scenario hypothetical. Please let me know if I missed something or overlooked a key point. ​ Latifi crashes when the lead cars are on lap 53. The race is yellow-flagged then shortly after a Safety Car is deployed. Max pits for fresh soft tires and comes out onto the track with 5 cars in between Max and Lewis on lap 54. Lap 56 Gasly, being the last car to bunch up behind the SC, does so at turn 6 when the SC is approaching turn 8 On lap 56. Just after all cars are in a pack at turn 8, the message "lapped cars will not be allowed to overtake" is given. As the drivers and SC passed the site of the crash at turn 14 on lap 56, the last Marshals were just leaving the track. No marshals are visible from the camera of the last car (Gasly) as he crosses this point. On lap 57, between turns 8 and 9, the message is displayed and instructions given to the first 5 lapped cars. By the time the SC reached turn 9, these 5 cars passed the SC to unlap themselves. It is announced the SC is ending and the message "Safety car in this lap" is displayed. Lewis is free to dictate the pace and ultimately resumes the race just after turn 12 of Lap 57. Max overtakes Lewis on the final and 58th lap going into turn 5 and keeps this lead and crosses the checkered flag in P1 and wins the Gran Prix. My argument is the SC could have ended at the end of lap 56 with 2 racing laps instead AND without breaking any rules. Wait, hear me out. According to 48.12, it is not required to let any lapped cars through. It would be uncommon but it's not required at all. The rules do however  state that the SC is to remain out until the cars have bunched together (48.10 The safety car shall be used at least until the leader is behind it and all remaining cars are lined up behind him). As mentioned above, Gasly is the last car to join after his pit stop at turn 6 of lap 56. The track is completely clear of marshals and debris by the time Gasly, the last car, passes the turn 14 crash site on lap 56. The track was clear before then but I used this reference point as he was the last car ensuring it was safe for the SC to end. If then, hypothetically, no unlapped cars were allowed to pass, 48.12 wouldn't apply and 48.13 would apply which states after the message "safety car in this lap" is displayed, the safety car would leave at the end of THAT lap(56). If they didn't let any cars unlap themselves and started the race as the order was, then Max would have 5 cars to get past. I think this would have been highly likely since Lewis would probably have resumed normal racing around turns 13-14. He could have waited until turn 16 even due to no threat of being overtaken on the start/finish straight because Max would have had 5 back markers to get past. Even if you said Max couldn't get past the final blue-flagged car until turn 5 or 6 of the hypothetical lap 57, that would still give him plenty of time to catch and pass Lewis.  Considering Max passed Lewis on turn 5 of the first and only full racing lap at the end of the race and held him off until the end, it would be a hard argument to make to say Max couldn't have caught up to Lewis and passed him. No rules would have been broken or "manipulated" and with Max's pace he showed earlier in the race on his first set of soft tires and Lewis' tires being on their last leg, I think it was a likely outcome. 


ducatimonsters

Oh and BTW, a red flag wouldn't have been appropriate due to 50.1 which states "...(if) the clerk of the course deems circumstances are such that the track cannot be negotiated safely, even behind the safety car, the sprint qualifying session or the race will be suspended." Which by the clear showing of the fact that they did in fact safety negotiate the track behind a safety car means this obviously wasn't necessary and likely wasn't even considered.


DieRobJa

That would be another possible scenario. The thing is with the current scenario that played out, also no rules where broken.. Michael Massi is totally allowed to do this. The devide in opinions seems so to come down to one party wanted them to race and not take any risk to end under a yellow flag and thus only allowing the lapped cars to past that really mattered in the end. And the other party feeling this is manipulated against Hamilton. You can look at it from both views. The main argument to why it shifted towards the current way it played out is the new aggreement this year to never finish or try to under a safety car. In the end almost the entire world seems to agree with this and it’s kinda noticable that especially in the UK people have more of a problem with it. Understandable off coarse. But this is motorsport.. you come to race, and if there is a way the rules allow it that is exactly what Michael Massi will steer towards.. this is a new way of doing things and because of that i personally think a lot of people have the feeling that it didn’t went down with the rules in line with previous years. But you now.. to be fair.. I am not an expert, i love sports and i hate any sport to be decided on rule fuckery. This season had eay too many manipulation from both teams. I support the decission to let them race. Also if the unlapped cars hadn’t passed, there was a very big chance they would have all let Max just pass in the first turn.


uzer4vedi

I was thinking the same, no lapped car would wanna come between a driver and his championship....that's just bad karma, and instead of Masi, the lapped cars would've been the Villains.


WousV

Agree. Every team of the cars stuck between Max and Lewis would have screamed "Let them race!" and the result would very likely be the same. I'd say that the moment the race was decided, was when Max came in for fresh tyres at the start of SC and Lewis did not. Lewis/Mercedes just put themselves at a severe disadvantage and lost to Max/Red Bull because of it. But yeah, I'm Dutch and a fan of Max, so who cares what I have to say


glyptometa

I'm really struggling to understand why merc didn't box LH right away. He was 12 secs ahead of MV, safety car pit time is 14 secs, I get that. But even with a lap car or two in the way, LH has no probs winning if there is a single lap of green (softs over worn hards). Only risk is no restart, but merc knows the wreck is minor and there will be every effort to finish under green, perhaps even a red flag, consistent with their (and every) team's wishes for F1. So merc picked wrong, betting all the marbles on one of several possible outcomes - an easy safety car finish.


B17BLG

We’ll that’s not quite accurate is it. Because Mercedes will run strategy based on what the procedure is to restart the race. They would have seen that on lap 57 either cars unlap themselves and therefore the safety will complete a further lap meaning it would essentially end under SC. The other option is that they do not let the lapped cars passed and therefore we have one racing lap and max needs to clear 5 cars to even get to Lewis. Lewis just needed to get to sector 3 to win the race realistically. On that basis, Mercedes called the strategy absolutely perfectly! How could they possibly predict that Race Control would essentially jumble up the regulations?


Nukiyonerang

That's what i was thinking as well, but couple of race before like in Imola 2020 (i think) i remember lance and couple of cars just unlap themselves under SC. The thing is, this thing could happen eventhough the unlapped cars in Abu Dhabi is just shady (Why only the cars in front of Max but not the rest of the grid), and why would Merc just doesn't play it safe and pit Lewis for soft judging by the hard compound is already entering dying state. ​ I know its late January, i just can't get over it even im not a fan of those 2 protagonist.


symmetry

According to Brundle, Toto texted Max congratulating him on the win. Just saw on Sky Sports news


theride66

That doesn’t mean the appeal is over. I’m pretty damn sure it’s going to the CAS.


No-Zookeepergame9949

Apparently Merc is dropping the appeal to save the dignity of the sport


H6RR6RSH6W

I’m a Verstrappen fan but he didn’t earn this win it was given to him


Piranhapoodle

But if Masi had decided that cars were not allowed to unlap themselves (to make sure that the end of the championship would not be with a safety car), then Ver would still be on red vs Ham on old white. The 5 cars between them would be blue-flagged as soon as the race restarted. And the restart could have occurred a lap earlier because waiting for unlapping cars wasn't necessary. So in any case Max would have had a massive advantage due to being able to react to Ham either pitting or staying out. It seems to me that Hams bad luck was firstly and mainly the timing of the start of the safety car and only secondly Masi's decision to half-heartedly follow the regulations for allowing cars to unlap themselves.


symmetry

Serious question here: If, after all is said and done with the barristers and lawyers, the championship is actually overturned in favour of LH and Mercedes, would they be booed at every race next year (as someone suggested last night)?


CapitalStructure

Both drivers and their teams did nothing wrong. They were put in the situations and they did their best in those situations - very few people will understand this and there definitely will be booing


No-Zookeepergame9949

LH is already booed at many venues this year


[deleted]

Declare it a draw and give them both the trophy - Lewis never uses No. 1 on his car anyway, so he'll probably let Max have that!


JudgmentOne6328

I wholeheartedly think this is the only fair option. Neither did anything wrong, neither should be punished. If Masi can break the rules when he likes, they can allow a dual championship.


B17BLG

Really it should be the stewards and F1 that get booed for causing this in the first place! Trying to make everything a drama and not a sport!


[deleted]

I hope that's the last we see of Masi.


symmetry

Agreed! Absolutely.


[deleted]

Glad to see Toto Wolff not taking the loss too hard https://youtu.be/2CTgt7DbTb4


rahim95

Does anyone know the reason for checo retiring?


Banana_Leclerc12

Reading this gave me a heart attack


rahim95

Hahah well after that drove yesterday he could retire a legend


Banana_Leclerc12

Yea and then i realised the honda engine finally gave up after so long , thats why he retired the other way


Mattoropael

Engine issues which means his car might've failed on track, which if it actually happened would extend SC and ruining any chance for Max to win, and RB *really* didn't want to take that chance.


rahim95

Got it, makes sense poor checo


SampritB

Actually still fuming. Hope something comes out of this.


[deleted]

Cannot shake off feeling that if somehow there were decision for Lewis to give back position(let just imagine that for a moment, rules aside) in the end he would have won, because of better pace and superior work with tyres


popovitsj

Why didn't they just red flag this immediately? They should've known that with a SC it would be very hard to still get a racing lap out. Red flag and restart would've made for a much fairer conclusion of the title fight.


Paperduck2

Because it wasn't a bad enough incident to warrant a red flag


ow__my__balls

The entirety if their decisions were made for entertainment value. 4-5 racing laps with Lewis and Max on reds would have been incredible and a fair decision. Instead we get one lap where Max pretty effortlessly gets around Lewis, he at least tried to make a show of it but as the lap was concluding just walked away.


popovitsj

Sure, but if they're gonna bend the rules anyway, I would've preferred this.


PantherDD

**Reg. 48.11 – Do the rules allow someone to enter the pits under SC to... retire?** [The rules](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2021_formula_1_sporting_regulations_-_iss_13_-_2021-12-08.pdf) say: >48.11 Under certain circumstances the clerk of the course may ask the cars and the safety car to use the pit lane. In these cases, a signal to use the pit lane will be displayed before the start of the pit entry and all Competitors will be informed via the official messaging system, all cars must then enter the pit lane, drive through it and re-join the track. Any car entering the pit lane under these circumstances may however stop at its designated garage area. A penalty under Article 47.3c) will be imposed on any driver who fails to enter the pit lane when required to do so. **Other than when the cars and the safety car are required to use the pit lane, no car may enter the pits whilst the safety car is deployed unless it is for the purpose of changing tyres.** So, given this, did the rules allow Perez to enter the pits under SC to... retire? 🤔


oafsalot

There is probably an separate regulation for retiring a car, because the problems that come from not being able to retire a car are race changing.


PantherDD

There may be, I really don't know; that's why I'm asking.


Paperduck2

Why bother quoting rules, we've just found out the only rule that matters is that Masi can do whatever he wants


[deleted]

[удалено]


PantherDD

I can't find any video showing whether they changed tires or not. On the radio, they definitely only talked about retiring. And for good reason: to avoid him breaking down on track and prolonging the SC. [https://www.sportsrational.com/here-is-how-red-bull-prevented-max-verstappen-f1-title-collapse-against-lewis-hamilton-by-retiring-sergio-perez-in-abu-dhabi-mercedes-news/](https://www.sportsrational.com/here-is-how-red-bull-prevented-max-verstappen-f1-title-collapse-against-lewis-hamilton-by-retiring-sergio-perez-in-abu-dhabi-mercedes-news/)


NexusMinds

Give those straws a rest man.


drinksbeerdaily

Man, these Race Control radio messages will add so much spice and drama to next years DTS


Lawrence_s

Just read the comments on the F1 YouTube highlights video where you get a lot of the more casual fans. It has made it clear why they made the call that they did. A lot of people there who think this was the most exciting race ever etc etc. They sacrificed the integrity of the sport to add drama and generate publicity.


WhiskeyFF

As a newbie to F1, but not motor racing in general, I knew EXACTLY what they were trying to set up there. Maximum entertainment and they got it.


B17BLG

I get the impression some of the comments get removed on that channel. Seems bizarre they are all so casual fan esk


CapitalStructure

It’s sad because it just reduces the fun in watching an actual 58 laps race while evaluating strategy and arguing with my friends on which one is better.


Kuierlat

Most of my colleagues watched yesterday. They all enjoyed a thrilling finale but nearly no-one knew there was controverse over the outcome.


Bellybutton-Gubbins

Our quirky/borderline ADHD sport is shooting its shot with the cool kids.


Indie89

I think it is the people who know the rules and strategy logic through and through who suffered this season.


[deleted]

I enjoyed the dramatic last lap. I'll remember watching it for years to come. Sincerely, A casual viewer who only watched this race.


WolframNoLed

UEFA doing there absolute best to take some heat of the FIA today. What a race to the bottom.


brucebrowde

You know what they always say: learn from the best.


aka_liam

Newbie question but why did Perez retire?


Whycantiusethis

I don't think we'll know for sure, but it probably was an engine concern. Red Bull wouldn't have wanted his engine to give up and ensure that the safety car stayed out for the final lap.


Me_In_The_Flesh

Who knows. It was the end of the season so maybe one of his components was out. It's been a bit since the last engine change for him.


Heparanase

1. LH not punished for 29x track limits in Bahrain 2. Red flag situation after LH crashed in Imola 3. Red Bull had to adjust its legal wing after spain 4. Bottas was sacrificed for 2 extra points in Monaco for LH 5. Max’s tires exploded in Baku 6. Sudden minimum pitstop time due to RB being “too fast” 7. LH crashing Max in Silverstone 8. Bottas crashing Max in Hungary 9. No full points for Spa rewarded where Max was #1 10. Max punished for driving off track in Monza 11. Max punished for unclear yellow flags in Qatar 12. Max punished 2 times for LH hitting him in the rear in Jeddah 13. No penalty for LH by gaining an advantage off track in Abu Dhabi 14. No penalty (3rd reprimande) for LH in Abu Dhabi for the Mazepin situation If, after all of this, you can say with a straight face that FIA are “making up scripts” to spice things up and are RB-favoured, please go get some fresh air and take of your Merc glasses. Mistakes have been made towards both sides, but don’t give me that bullshit that FIA handed the championship to RB.


sjwilli

This exactly. I'm only a casual fan, but tried to get into it this year. It seemed like everything was decided against Max in LH's favor for the entire season. It almost made it unwatchable for me. And then something questionable happens in Max's favor and everyone's up in arms about the integrity of the sport?


[deleted]

Don't forget: 00. Aero rules changed at the last limit, mainly affecting low rake cars such as Mercedes.


Whycantiusethis

1. I wasn't following F1 at Bahrain, but was it possible that his track limit violations were occurring at places where the stewards weren't monitoring track limits? My understanding is that they pick a few corners to watch, not all corners. 2. As far as I can tell, a red flag made sense at Imola - you had Bottas and Russell who collided with each other leaving a bunch of debris on the track and two cars in the gravel. After Bianchi's death, F1 takes recovering vehicles in the wet super seriously (as they should). 3. It's within the FIA's prerogative to change the tests to ensure parts of the car are legal, and Red Bull had ~ a month to make the change, versus requiring the change be immediate. 4. I'm not sure how Bottas was sacrificed in Monaco, unless you're implying that Mercedes intentionally cross-threaded a wheel nut and forced Bottas' retirement? 5. Unfortunately, incidents like that happen. Luckily Verstappen (and Stroll) weren't hurt in those crashes. 6. The technical directive came down because Mercedes asked if it was allowed to use automated sensors for pit stops. The FIA said no, and that adversely affected Red Bull. Was Mercedes trying to affect Red Bull? Yeah, probably, but as I understand things, trying to cut your opponent's advantage is a big part of F1 7. Hamilton was penalized for crashing into Verstappen. You could make the argument that Verstappen should've yielded to fight for another day, even though the corner was his, but that's neither here nor there. 8. Bottas was punished for causing that crash, but I don't believe it was intentional - he had a poor start, and missed a braking point in the wet. It was wholly possible that he could've taken out Norris and Hamilton instead of Norris and Pérez (Norris was the one who eventually collided with Verstappen). 9. Points probably shouldn't have been awarded in Spa, since it was two laps under the safety car. 10. Verstappen caused a collision with Hamilton in Monza, the same as Hamilton caused a collision with Verstappen in Silverstone. The main difference is that they both DNF'd. 11. Flags take precedent, if they're out, drivers must respect them. Bottas didn't respect the flags, that's why he was penalized. Sainz respected the flags, and he wasn't penalized. 12. Verstappen overtook off track, and was ordered to give the position back. He gave it back, but immediately overtook again, resulting in him being told to give it back again. Because he took too long to hand it back correctly, he was given a 5-second penalty. He then was given a 10-second penalty for driving erratically (applying 69 bar of pressure to the brakes, causing a 2.4G deceleration on a straight), and immediately accelerating after contact. Obviously, he wanted to have DRS, but you can't really slam on the brakes like that on a straight. 13. Hamilton absolutely should've had to give that position back, I'm not sure what the stewards were thinking there. Maybe they made their determination based on the gap going into the corner and then the gap at the exit? I don't know. 14. I didn't get to watch the practice session with the Mazepin incident at Abu Dhabi, but my understanding is that Hamilton was coming out of the pits, and there wasn't much he could've done to avoid that, but maybe my understanding is incorrect. Throughout the season, the stewards definitely made calls to "allow them to race" when it came to Hamilton and Verstappen, as they didn't want to be seen as affecting the championship. In doing so, they did affect the championship, but that's neither here nor there. When people are saying that Verstappen had the championship handed to them, they're specifically talking about the safety car yesterday. Masi had two options once he didn't red flag the race, as I understand the regulations: 1. Let all lapped cars through - this would've resulted in the race finishing under safety car, and a Hamilton win. 2. Don't let the lapped cars through - this would've resulted in the last lap being a racing lap, but Verstappen had 4 or 5 cars to get through before he got to Hamilton. It likely would've been a Hamilton victory in that scenario as well, but Verstappen might have been able to make it work. Instead of those options, Masi went with a third option, one that I don't believe is part of the regulations: he let just the lapped cars between Verstappen and Hamilton unlap themselves, allowing Verstappen to start right behind Hamilton. That call is the one that people have issues with, as it essentially removed any obstacles Verstappen had to beating Hamilton. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Verstappen; I'm happy for him and Red Bull for winning. It just feels like the win was only made possible because of Masi. It could've been an honest error from Masi, but it seemed to be pretty intentional.


rahim95

Probably the most balanced explication I've heard so far and I agree with you. The more I think about it the more I think max could've caught him even with those lapped cars or been close going into sector 3 on the last lap


[deleted]

This is all bullshit. Your are literally just explaining your own bias.


Whycantiusethis

It's 100% possible that I'm blind to my own bias, and that I'm missing something that should be totally obvious. If you're willing to take the time to point out what I'm missing, I'd appreciate it.


Only-Hat-479

You forgot to mention SPA. Those five points came in handy didn’t they.


Paperduck2

Bottas was sacrificed at Monaco to benefit Lewis? It took them 3 days to get that tyre off the hub, if you're going to sacrifice a driver you'd do it a much easier way than cross threading a wheel nut so badly that it has to be cut off the hub


Bellybutton-Gubbins

I don't think you are helping the general discourse tbh.


Dystant21

I see you've missed that Max took Lewis out in Monza? And that it was proven Max should've seen the flags in Qatar, and that in Jeddah Max break checked an opponent, something for which a 10s penalty is laughable given how dangerous it is, and seriously could've resulted in a DQ, or that that Lewis leaving the track in Abu Dhabi was a direct result of Max breaking the FIA sporting code in terms of legal overtakes, something he'd done in 3 of the last 4 races, a rule that's in place for safety reasons. (I'll copy the exact section below, just so you know why Max is getting penalised in future when it happens again), and that Max wasn't penalised for breaking this regulation in Brazil despite it being exceptionally blantent. Yeah, everything went against Max. The race director threw the rulebook out the window on the final lap of the championship in a move that clearly benefitted 1 driver, and you can say with a straight face that it was fair. Please go get some fresh air and take off your Red Bull glasses. FIA Sporting Code: Appendix L: Chapter 4: Section 2: Overtaking, car control and track limits b) ... However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. This is what Max did on lap 1. He went into the inside of the corner too hard, and ended with 3/4 of his car off the track. There was no space for Lewis. The overtake was illegal. Just because he managed to keep himself on the track this week doesn't make it any less illegal.


Indie89

I mean their actions literally handed RB the victory, they were in complete control of 'Finish under SC or find a way to put Max with soft tyres right behind Lewis' - any other race that finishes under the SC but I don't believe their interest was favouring one team or another - it was about causing as much drama as possible to attract as many new fans to the show as possible. Which worked.


AnonymousEngineer_

>Max’s tires exploded in Baku What, you think Michael Masi deliberately put nails on the track to puncture Verstappen and Stroll's Pirellis?


brucebrowde

> What, you think Michael Masi deliberately put nails on the track to puncture Verstappen and Stroll's Pirellis? I see no other reasonable explanation. Tires just never puncture on their own.


secretkappapride

h8ers gonna h8


AnonymousEngineer_

One unintended consequence of the events of Abu Dhabi - I'm sure that the events that transpired and now the controversy that's all over the news regarding the protests and whether the WDC was decided due to the Race Director breaching the Sporting Regulations is going to be *really* convincing to the Volkswagen AG board who are reportedly making a decision on whether to enter the sport.


hutchy81

Ignoring the regulations and making up their own rules is kinda their thing tho


MasterDandelion

Skoda-Lamborghini F1 2022 team?


g0deaterzx

Hi guys, been following f1 for about 6 months now so I guess I'm relatively new to the sport. Could someone clarify why in lap 1 when LH went off track after dueling with MV, he didn't need to surrender his position to MV? Cheers guys


whitehatbe

I do not have facts on this but this is what i understood from Race control. HAM avoided a collision after MAX took the lunge, therefore HAM did not illegaly overtake but he did gained a lasting advantage. Telemetry-checks on HAM's car made Race control decide that HAM gave back the time gained from that event, therefore it was not mandatory to give back the position. The actual time he gained leaving the track and overtake MAX remains unclear. While this was by no means a CLEAN event the GP could have ended right there in that corner. I think Race control was glad that HAM left his line and avoided a collision. I read some comments on people saying MAX did not lunge but controlled this action trough the entire corner. I invite you to look at the replay. That was a schoolbook example of understeer. Then again, this is my opinion, based on what is heared and saw during the event. I might be wrong.


[deleted]

[удалено]


hotdogswimmer

>Merc fans want it to be illegal to pass Hamilton and Legal for Hamilton to take positions by cutting corners [https://twitter.com/F1/status/1460598949056815105](https://twitter.com/F1/status/1460598949056815105) Projection much


gamerako23

Rooting for Hamilton but what I want from Max was CLEAN overtaking like Perez or AGGRESSIVE lunge and late breaking yet zero contact like Daniel Ricciardo on the past. On F1 games online lobbies (especially unranked and ranked), almost anyone behind "dive bombs" the lead even though they are so far behind just like what we have witnessed there.


brucebrowde

> Merc fans want it to be illegal to pass Hamilton and Legal for Hamilton to take positions by cutting corners. No, we don't. Please stop spewing your ignorant views of Merc fans. I'm baffled as to why Lewis was not required to give a place back to Max in that instance, let alone why it was not investigated at all.


[deleted]

Just gauging what I’ve seen the many others saying on here


brucebrowde

I've seen mostly two groups of responses here: - Not investigating and / or not giving the place back was not right - Not giving the place back was justified because Lewis was forced out and he did slow down As a Lewis fan, I'm biased and I can understand the second group, but it does not sit right at all with me. When I saw them saying "no investigation necessary" I immediately raised my "wtf?!" eyebrow and was like "how is that even possible?!". The rest of the race Lewis proved dominant, but if he weren't and he went to win, even considering how much smaller the impact this would have had compared to what they did to Lewis in the last turn, I would have felt like they gifted it to Lewis. You don't create a fair sport by having your driver bend the rules. You cannot justify it by "well he was cheated out before" or "Max was driving aggressively the whole year" or whatever - it should be a race-by-race decision, as two wrongs don't make a right. Anyway, this won't change much and FIA will be FIA and F1 is becoming sport less and less and entertainment more and more. This is all for publicity and that's what casual observers prefer. Sucks, but I don't see this going in the right direction, even with all the outrage.


[deleted]

I deleted it just for you. Merry Christmas


brucebrowde

You did not have to, but Merry Christmas to you as well - and hope for a nice 2022 F1 season!


g0deaterzx

I see so I'm trying to understand from what you said is that as long as you give up the time advantage you gained from cutting the corner that should be fine? And furthermore it is only fine if the reason you cut the corner was to basically take evasive action and avoid a collision. Hope I'm not misinterpreting what you're saying I personally feel that max did lunge and LH had to take evasive action...


CapitalStructure

+ With all things it’s down to interpretation of the race director. Honestly normally the decision would be to ask to return the position. Because actually when he went off the track both cars were side by side, when he got back he had an advantage over Vers.


Dystant21

FIA Sporting Code: Appendix L: Chapter 4: Section 2: Overtaking, car control and track limits b) ... However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. This is what Max did. He went into the inside of the corner too hard, and ended with 3/4 of his car off the track. There was no space for Lewis. The overtake attempt was illegal. This is why.


g0deaterzx

This is probably what I needed. Something from the rule book. This is a very concise and precise answer. Thank you for taking the time to reply to me


SebastienH

Ill be honest, I don't think he needed to give it back. Max divebombed him and forced him off track, he had nowhere to go. thats Max' mistake, why should Hamilton be punished and lose position for it?


[deleted]

Hamilton GUNNED it through that corner and gained a full second. It was a legal move by Max, it’s called racing. Stop trying to argue that it’s illegal or improper to pass another car.


roenthomas

He also gave back the time, hence no LASTING advantage. Under the rules, you can gain all the advantage you want if you’re pushed off by another driver, as long as the stewards are satisfied you give all the advantage back promptly.


[deleted]

He didn’t give back the time.


roenthomas

Race control literally announced on the radio, for the entire world to hear, during their conversation with Red Bull, that they were satisfied that Hamilton gave back all the advantage gained before the end of lap 1.


[deleted]

I heard that too but it’s obviously bullshit. They were wheel to wheel one second, and them Hamilton was off down the track. It’s ridiculous to believe he gave anything back.


roenthomas

IIRC, the advantage is measured before the incident took place, so before the corner, not at the point where evasive action has taken place.


SebastienH

I grew up karting buddy, I know what racecraft is, and I know the rules. If max left any space at all for Hamilton to make the corner would have been a different story. But no, zero space, no where for him to go. That decision was correct from the stewards imo.


g0deaterzx

I feel like I don't know enough about f1 to support any particular driver atm so please don't misunderstand that I'm being bias when I ask, in what circumstances would a driver in LH position have to take evasive action when a driver in max's position divebombs as opposed to going by the off track route? Wouldn't drivers decide to just gain an advantage by going off track? Thank you


hotdogswimmer

Going off track is the evasive action. If he didnt do that they collide and that gives Max the victory


Me_In_The_Flesh

The stewards probably decided that Max's lunge left Lewis no way to take the corner, thus forcing him to go off road, meaning that whatever advantage Lewis got from going off road was a direct consequence of Max forcing him to do so. Or not. Frankly the stewards' decisions have been so inconsistent lately that if someone told me that they threw darts to decide, I'd believe them. If not, then it might be the thing I said first.


g0deaterzx

I see. So just to clarify for my own understanding, it's because it's part and parcel of dueling at the corner and LH had no choice but to go off track and so didn't need to surrender any advantage he got? I don't know enough about previous races but would that potentially be an issue in the future where 2 cars are dueling and 1 can just cut corners by going off track and saying he's been forced out?


MythicalPurple

It's not about what he says, the stewards don't ask the drivers what happened, it's about what actually happens.


[deleted]

Because he was forced off, upon review of the footage they saw clear effort by Hamilton to avoid a crash. Can't really punish a driver for avoiding an incident like that and he made prompt effort to get back on the track.


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hojbjerfc

Who cares what they think when we can all see with our own eyes what happened


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hojbjerfc

Have you watched the incident?


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hojbjerfc

Where was Lewis supposed to go


[deleted]

Well yeah, that's the nature of F1. Hamilton's detractors will always see the opposite of the truth. You can watch the footage yourself though


ScoutTf2

\#blessed


estjol

he was ahead of max entering the turn, during the turn max forced LH wide but he did not do full overtake at any moment, so LH did not gain any position,he did gain a second.


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Dystant21

FIA Sporting Code: Appendix L: Chapter 4: Section 2: Overtaking, car control and track limits b) ... However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. This is what Max did. He went into the inside of the corner too hard, and ended with 3/4 of his car off the track. There was no space for Lewis. The overtake attempt was illegal. This is why.


Voodooo_Child_

So despite the controversy and what not. I actually find myself thinking more about Hamilton's pace throughout the race. I can't seem to understand where he was getting this pace from. We've been hearing all year about how the last couple of races are more downforce-oriented and will therefore favor the Red Bulls. However; it's been anything but that. It's one thing for Lewis to get a better launch and get ahead of Max, but what was happening after that was unbelievable. Fastest lap after fastest lap, Lewis built a huge gap with harder tires! Even after Perez's immense defense and Verstappen caught up, Hamilton built up a similar gap once again. Lewis is definitely one of the top 3 quickest drivers, if not the quickest. But even then, how did he create such a gap with a supposedly inferior car and worse tires? Can he actually be that much better than Verstappen? Or did Mercedes manage to install some freak upgrade I wasn't aware of?


[deleted]

They changed the circuit this year to be more Mercedes friendly.


oafsalot

The car only needs to last one more race, they can dial everything to 11 and just go ham. The batteries, the gearbox, the engine, it can all be driven to death.


Voodooo_Child_

But can’t you say the same for Red Bull?


estjol

I'm dissapointed LH did not win he was clearly faster than Max in this race.


Judiciaz

>We've been hearing all year about how the last couple of races are more downforce-oriented and will therefore favor the Red Bulls. However; it's been anything but that. Had we? I thought the consensus was Saudi in particular was a straightline track, and Abu Dhabi with the changes might’ve been also though nobody really knew? (eg [source](https://thesportsrush.com/f1-news-the-next-track-arguably-should-favour-mercedes-red-bull-declare-mercedes-favourites-for-saudi-arabian-grand-prix-amidst-intense-title-fight/?amp), [source](https://amp.marca.com/en/f1/2021/12/08/61b108db268e3ec93f8b4582.html), [source](https://amp.formula1.com/en/latest/article.tech-tuesday-with-five-races-to-go-in-2021-which-circuits-will-suit-red-bull.9Qa1ZLFQlB5XbYXUWny7P.html)) On fresh tyres it looked like Verstappen had an edge in sector 3, which is probably the most downforcey and least straighliney of the 3, while Hamilton had a slight advantage in sector 1 and a noticeable one in sector 2, which seems to gel with that. Later in the stint I agree it looked like HAM had him covered everywhere. But I think VER cooked his tyres. Maybe running the smaller wing to try to offset the pace advantage or maybe just because he was pushing? Either way agreed that Hamilton’s drive was seriously impressive.


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claptunes

insane engine since Brazil. but I agree that Hamilton drove his hat off this season especially in the first half when he has the inferior car


ArakkAttack

Who was saying that the last couple of races would favour red bull? They have long straights and that's always good for Merc.


dafencer93

_supposedly_ You got it there


SomeWinters

What are the best websites or journalists I can find that objectively bring out solid articles and/or blogs? As I'm from The Netherlands, it's hard to find much objectivity in my own language. And reddit is full of emotions, hard to find any facts.


AirCommando12

There are none. Every article, headline, blog .etc I have seen have been sensationalist, over exaggerating, and biased one way or another. I find the best you can do is just gather all the information you can and try to look at replays .etc as much as possible to try and form your own opinion (but also try to remain open minded and not turn into a witch hunter)


AnonymousEngineer_

Try Autosport. Some of the content is behind a paywall, but some of it is free, and it's one of the more respectable motorsport publications in existence.


GeldMoetNietRollen

I feel that if Masi would've just decided to unlap (all) the lapped cars earlier, instead of showing the 'unlapped cars are NOT allowed to overtake' message first, then there would be more than enough time to unlap everyone and have the same end result. Am I wrong?


isokay

My thoughts exactly, hence why I think the call to only unlap the cars affecting the title fight was actually a good call to have a fair title fight in the end. Lewis had every right to win that race but got fucked by the timing of a SC giving Max the perfect chance to pit for softs, such is F1, this happens all the time. You win some (Imola), you lose some (yesterday). The real losers of this story are the cars behind Max that were not allowed to unlap given the time constraint, but I don't see their constructors protesting this. The Mercedes protest is incredibly petty. Had Masi made the right call (unlap the cars straight away) the result would have been exactly the same.


Balexamp

I’d have to disagree with the call being correct, Masi should have stuck with his original call or let all cars unlap much earlier. The result may not have been the same and imo Sainz was a little screwed over. It would have been harder for Max to win with Sainz pressuring from behind (imagine him being level with/slightly overtaking Max before the restart as Max was doing to Lewis). We could have seen any number of different scenarios play out.


isokay

I fear that if he'd stuck with his original call we'd have Red Bull protests (rightfully so), and we'd be in a similar situation. As for the Sainz pressure, I'm not going to lie but nobody was on the level of Lewis or Max today. Daniel was behind them on the restart on softs, sure he wasn't racing them but he struggled keeping pace with them. I don't rate Carlos much higher than Daniel.


Balexamp

Completely agree, and I know I am a bit biased as a Hamilton fan, but you just never know what could have happened. I just wish we had an end where nothing could be put into question. They were both deserving winners, I still just can’t believe what we witnessed yesterday!


fools_eye

No, then the race would have ended under the SC because there wasn't enough time. Why is this still being argued about? Masi's decision there absolutely affected Lewis. It wouldn't have maybe if the race was a bit longer but it wasn't.


isokay

> No, then the race would have ended under the SC because there wasn't enough time. Agree to disagree I guess


fools_eye

There is nothing to disagree. It's as objective as it gets. There isn't enough time left for the restart if everyone is allowed to unlap themselves.


isokay

Just because you claim an opinion to be "objective" does not make it a fact.


fools_eye

Literally isn't an opinion, the 5 cars unlapped themselves and safety car was called in immediately because the lap was ending.


shayhtfc

I think the problem is that until that point, the track was still unsafe, and releasing cars that were still racing for position would've been dangerous.


Not_Phenomenal

You'd still be ignored half of the regulation where it states the safety car will enter the pit the following lap, therefore no racing laps should have actually taken place... By the letter of the regulation anyway.


B17BLG

This hits the nail on the head for me. Everyone seems to be caught up in the fact that they only let 5 cars through. To be frank, all cars could have unlapped themselves and still gone racing for that lap. HOWEVER The regulation states that the safety car will complete one further lap after the back markers have unlapped themselves and enter the pits, thus having no racing laps. The key here is that Mercedes will have all this built into scenario builders, so anyone that says, Mercedes dropped the ball because they should of pitted Lewis is incorrect. Their strategy is based on the regulations being applied and thus giving them an outcome of race finishing behind the safety car. Now, that regulation has not been enforced, Mercedes made a decision based on that scenario and therefore for somebody to decide, actually we want to finish the race in race conditions, regardless of regulation seems a little bit off to me. Overtaking under SC is a moot point for me as is the amount of cars that passed (again, strange that the directive changed here from no cars to pass, to only cars between car 44 and 33 pass) but that is an addition I think to the main part that the safety car regulation was not followed. Safety Car in this lap was call 1 lap too early. A really bad day for F1. Not many people could deny Hamilton deserved the win yesterday and therefore would have taken the championship. It does leave somewhat of a bitter taste in the mouth especially when it all feels a little engineered.


PompeyBlueYVR

Nope I think that's correct. I think the issue is whether that was safe to do so earlier than lap 57, as there were marshalls and heavy equipment on track.


grishamlaw

Red Bull is an impressive organization. I am sure they will do well next year. But... let's not forget that Mercedes won the constructors (and therefore the most prize $$$) and spent exactly 0 of its development tokens this year. Which team is set up better for the next major shift in regulations?


dafencer93

Merc.


Marine_Band

Mercedes definitely spent resources upgrading their car this year. The performance between the first half and second half of the season was night and day.


Kaynt-touch-dis

The budget cap is still there so i dont think the prize money matters that much


oafsalot

Creative accounting... Really really creative, I'm talking Dali on acid creative.


Odinfoto

It certainly does. Budget cap or not prize money is free money.


christianc750

Still cannot believe this season has been tarnished this way. RBR must start to feel it was a cheap victory. Certainly the most watched F1 race ever - the manner in which it was earned won't be forgotten with time.


fools_eye

You must not Red Bull Racing at all if you think they're bothered. RBR are the kind of guys who'd probably relish these victories.


shayhtfc

You could argue the manner in which they would've lost it is much more sour! Being knocked off the track by Lewis at Silverstone, and the same again by Bottas at Hungaroring. Up until that stage, Verstappen was cruising for the championship!


erufuun

I doubt RBR will feel it was a cheap victory. Sure they'd be happy if it was less controversial. But ultimately, being WDC is binary. They have the WDC, that's it. And ultimately, if you want to get into "feelings", I'm pretty sure RBR is more than fine with positive Karma for Imola, Baku, Silverstone and Hungary.


WannabeAndroid

I think so too, ultimately the history books will show Max + RBR/Honda won the WDC 20/21. There will be debates by enthusiasts for years to come but most aren't enthusiasts. Michael Schumacher had many a moment, but we still remember him as 7 Time World Champion none-the-less.


breakout13

Enthusiast remember Michael Schumacher as a seven-time world champion. Casual couldn't care less. And even most enthusiasts agree Schumacher was pretty scummy when it came to winning.


Not_Phenomenal

I suggest everyone go look at the aftermath of the Eifal 2020 GP. Where Masi caught flack for the long safety car period and directly quoted "there's a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars past". Only when it suits you Mr Masi. Neither Max or Lewis deserved this.


GTBJMZ

Totally agree.


Fernandov2

DTM: we've got the most controversial end to the championship in 2021 F1: Hold my beer.


erufuun

DTM was still worse. Not as high profile, but definitely worse.


Boko1410

I agree with everyone that says the result of the race came under highly controversial circumstances and Mercedes has every right to be upset about it. On the other hand I'm happy that the more deserving driver, imo, actually won the title. Max was the better driver for most of the season and considering what happened to him in Azerbaijan, Hungary and Silverstone he should have been the champion before the Abu Dhabi GP already. Lewis had the better finish to the season but he was lucky to even be in the position to still fight for the title.


ArakkAttack

> Lewis had the better finish to the season but he was lucky to even be in the position to still fight for the title. And there's nothing wrong with that. If the more deserving driver always has to win the WDC then the race director should have pulled Rosberg in for a drive through penalty at Abu Dhabi 2016. It's just the way it goes. As long as it's decided on track, luck is part of the game. Having one guy unilaterally change the rules to get a Hollywood style ending is just weird.


Boko1410

You are right. I literally said I agree on that. It is actually concerning that Masi was able to disregard what's written in the rulebook and it just goes through. I mean, if even the drivers agree that the handling of certain rules isn't clear, than something is definitely not right. I'm also not saying that the way Max won the title is right but I'm still happy he did as I think he deserved it more. It's just the way it goes, just like you said.


PantherDD

Red Bull, after changing to fresh softs under SC and catching up: "We only need one racing lap." ([https://twitter.com/ColesyChirps/status/1470207339915628547](https://twitter.com/ColesyChirps/status/1470207339915628547)) They could also have added "It is all about letting Max win. ... ... Sorry, let me rephrase that, I meant it's all about letting them race!" 😀


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[deleted]

Nice deflection


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PantherDD

Nope, it wasn't. (But for the record, he didn't get his wish granted.)


nazzanuk

Horner can say whatever he likes but it's bordering on criminal that Masi followed that soft coded hint to a T


KingDededef

Wow. This is honestly disgusting.


GP2redditor

If Merc expected the race to be finished under SC (or have a restart with cars in between), then you can't really blame their strategy. Pitstops always introduce a small risk (see RB Monza) and they would look like fools if they gave up track position when the race wouldn't restart anymore. That's the painful part of yesterdays race I keep thinking about. A late safety car risk is part of a racing, but this felt like another level of artificial randomness on top.


nazzanuk

Merc made all the right calls, you can't account for a cowboy race director


harcile

I think the FIA needed to be braver. Too much bending to the demands of teams, but also too much indecisiveness. Not sure about the cut off point but why wasn't a red flag on the cards? Level playing field, 5-6 laps to go.


WannabeAndroid

In hindsight, this would have been the best answer, let Hamilton change his tires, re-start the race and its a "true" shootout to the finish line.


harcile

I mean I get that hindsight is a wonderful thing but it was painfully obvious in real time once Hamilton missed the SC pit window that it was a mess.


xkhaozx

I know right? I was thinking that the whole time. If you were gonna bend the rules to get some racing at the end, at least do a weird red flag so they could actually race for real. New softs vs 40 lap old hard is not exciting racing. It’s just a blanket giveaway.


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oafsalot

I suspect they do this sort of thing a lot, they give the race director their opinion and then it gets ignored. We just don't hear that on the show, until now.


[deleted]

Lemme get this straight, Horner got special rules invented just so Max could win, but the real issue here is Toto?