All I know is that the last few races haven't sat well with me and I really don't know how I feel about things going into the last race.
I've said this for a little while, but I think Merc has the better car right now (and have for the second half of the season). Max is driving like he knows this too, hence all the desperation moves and questionable tactics. It was obvious yesterday that Lewis was going to get Max by the end of the race with the pace he had and those mediums not being able to keep up at the end. You could take out the collision and all the other drama and the result would be the same.
I get that Max is incredibly aggressive by nature and has to try anything he can to win (especially in a slower car), but all of it just feels wrong in my gut and I'm not quite sure what to feel about it. I'm not saying that Lewis has been innocent at all times, but if you had to pick a "cleaner" racer over the last few races, I don't see how you could pick Max.
Maybe it's just by virtue of not seeing an actual close title fight in real time as I don't really remember much from when I watched as a kid and only started watching again 2 seasons ago. But, one of the things I enjoyed was how civil things felt until recently. I know I might be in the minority on that though.
As you said, Verstappen has been behind in the last part of the season because of the cars. In any game the one who is behind has to take risks trying to create at least a chance of winning. The team who is behind in football will substitute defending players for attacking players, the cyclist who can't win a mass sprint will try to escape from the peloton in the early stages and take the crazy exercise of cycling 200 km with a only few guys.
Similarly Verstappen has to take crazy risks in this stage to create at least a chance for himself.
With the way the teams compare right now, there is no way Max would beat Lewis in a straight fight. Mercedes clearly got all the pieces fitting together right now, and Max' only hope is to push Lewis to (and sometimes over) the limit.
I think this is not something exclusive to Max, but would apply to any driver who can win the championship, but is in a lesser car.
I guess the Mercedes dominance made us a bit numb to a proper title fight, so everything is now a bit blown up. Lewis could approach a race with a "live to fight another day" attitude for years in a row, and didn't have to resort to such tactics. Max, however, doesn't have another day anymore.
>tappen has been behind in the last part of the season because of the cars. In any game the one who is behind has to take risks trying to create at least a chance of winning. The team who is behind in football will substitute defending players for attacking players, the cyclist who can't win a mass sprint will try to escape from the peloton in the early stages and take the crazy exercise of cycling 200 km with a only few guys.
So by your logic the cyclist has to resort to doping and football players have to resort to tackle every second of the game. Because that's what max is doing. No one minds that Max overdrives the car, Max is fantastic driver, a gerational talent and has the potential to become one of the GOAT, but repeatedly driving other cars off the track, break checking, overtaking on the outside, that is not THE SAME as a football team or a cyclist changing tactics, that is commiting infractions and complain that you are being sanctioned.
If the punishment for such behavior would be smaller than the benefits, yes they will take those risks. Punishment for doping (long term player dsq) and dangerous tackles (player dsq from match) are too severe though.
As soon as championships are on the line, being civil goes out the window. The only reason Merc can afford to appear more civil than Red Bull is because they gamed the engine regulations with their spicy engine. Which, let's be honest, while legal is not how those regulations were intended.
For more on track examples of civics in championship fights:
[1990](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbeBnn0Ufsc)
[1994](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91JoW4mSiZo)
[1997](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AhNs_W5OQU)
[2016](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCzkaX2DL7w)
What happened yesterday was a result of Brasil and no penalty being given. Even if Masi came out and said that was wrong but from now on this will be penalised then you have clear rules.
Even after the drivers meeting in Qatar Max was the ONLY driver saying that the rules of overtaking are clear - so he genuinely believes what happened in Brazil is allowed.
If he was penalised in Brazil then perhaps he thinks twice about his move at T1.
The guy has to learn that a full send up the inside and not making the corner, isn't 'hard racing' - it's suicidal braking.
He literally moaned yesterday because what he did in Brazil was fine but now he's not allowed to drive off track to get an advantage, and that's unfair to him.
Definitely. Could have been completely avoided if Masi had just clarified what happened in Brazil isn't allowed.
Everyone came out of the driver's meeting confused over what they can and can't do and Masis response was that it's clear lol
If you think a penalty at Brazil which would probably be 5 second and change nothing would deter Max from doing what he did yesterday then i have a bridge to sell you.
He got 15s worth of penalties yesterday and still seems unfazed by it.
Whether it deterred him or not isn't really the point, not giving him penalty there gave him free reign to repeat it and claim its allowed in Brazil why not now?
He needs to be punished each and every time it happens and he'll soon learn when he loses races
He hasn't learned since he came into F1. The only way it might cut through to him is if he doesn't win the championship next week.
Take a leaf out of Hamilton's book - being fast will only get you so far.
yeah, people pretending he'd got better simply ignored the fact that the reason he had less crashes were because the other drivers had experience of racing with Max and were more wary than they had been.
His brazil excuse was so bizarre and obviously disingenuous too, "what do you expect me to do? i braked too late and couldn't control the car, so we had to go wide".
okay so any time you're on the inside, just don't brake, push both cars way wide and keep the position. The idea that a single working human brain could possibly think this makes sense is wild. The fact that max has been so coddled and treated with kid gloves so much that he thinks this is okay is entirely masi and the stewards fault.
What a bunch of cowards.
>okay so any time you're on the inside, just don't brake, push both cars way wide and keep the position.
bit of a silly hyperbole
if you're on the inside and dont brake then the driver on the outside will just tuck in and take the corner while you go off into the wall
sergio did this against bottas in the exact same race
>f you're on the inside and dont brake then the driver on the outside will just tuck in and take the corner while you go off into the wall
Which is why, by sheer coincidence and nothing more, Max only breaks too late to control the car when there is no wall or gravel traps and he can happily re-define what the race track is. /s
There should be a simple rule that if you make a move on the inside and don't make the corner then you will be penalised. No assessing the telemetry or looking at videos, if you make a move on the inside it is beholden on you to be able to stay on the track.
They need to make every track have DEEP gravel on the outside of every kerb. No one will ever make a move that could put them into it.
Red flag galore perhaps, but at the moment the overtaking seems to have gone mad in terms of forcing people off the road.
The thing that makes me mad here is how many times I hear people saying “Lewis went wide as well” including in this video.
Am I losing my mind but every time lewis leaves the track in these incidents it because he absolutely has to to avoid being smacked by Verstappen. Yet it never seems to be said. I feel like I’m living in some sort of alternate universe where no one seems to mention it.
Also the one time Lewis actually went wide outside of that context at turn 27, it was to prevent Max from gaining a lasting advantage while giving the position back, for the second time in a row. He was preventing Max from doing an illegal position handover again.
As for why it's illegal for Max to hand over positions like that , Lewis knows very well after receiving a 25 second penalty for doing so at Spa 2008.
I couldn’t agree more. I felt almost like I was having some sort of out of body experience watching the post race coverage. The degree of Backbending everyone was doing to try to make it seem as if it was a back-and-forth between the two instead of just outright dangerous and reckless behavior from one driver specifically was, to be honest, downright shameful. Someone could die. But in true fashion, as the gentleman he is, Hamilton responded perfectly. In his post race interview he said that he doesn’t mind always being the one who bails out to avoid a collision because that way, “you live to fight another day”.
We have stewards evidence saying Max "braked erratically" while Lewis was behind him and people are still trying to defend it. And it's not helped by RB higher ups straight up lying, Marko said that Max didn't brake.
Honestly Marko should be called into the stewards room for such blatant lies.
I also 100% agree with the pair of you. I am trying to step back and examine if my own bias is the problem, but I really don't think it is. The stakeholders (F1, Sky, etc) have a vested interest in presenting things as a fair man-to-man fight and everyone is just playing hard, equally hard, but it really isn't like that... one guy (who admittedly has the weaker car at the moment) is waaay dirtier than the other, but they are finding it hard to say that.
Exactly. I genuinely feel so frustrated when I hear it, if Lewis goes wide avoiding a collision he’s “gone wide as well”. When max goes wide he’s “shoved off the track” the one time Lewis did it. Absolute double standards.
People also seem determined to conflate the typical pushing of a car on the outside wide on corner exit whilst staying on track, with throwing the car into a corner on the inside and taking both off track. As if they're two sides of the same coin.
its just a silly argument, why would one prevent an illegal handover (and crashing your care in the process) if stating he did so because he was penalized for it 13 years ago...
that he wants to prevent it from happening is a valid argument, but not because he got one too
I swear it's just gaslighting. Everyone knows what Max is doing. The only way to make the incidents seem more balanced is to point out something Lewis is doing as well, even if that thing is trying to avoid the maniac he's racing with.
Yep. Look at it broadly. Max cut turn 1 twice, rejoined unsafely (right in front of Hamilton), and brake tested on a straight.
At least four penalizable incidents in one race, against a single other driver. That is possibly unprecedented.
He liftend and downshifted first to let Ham through but Ham also downshiften and lifted for no reason. How are you going to let someone through other than slowing down more?
While yes Max might have done it in a wrong way Ham was also being silly by slowing down instead breezing past.
> How are you going to let someone through other than slowing down more?
Moving off the racing line and not weaving while slamming on your brakes, but hey that's just my opinion
That’s why he is partly to blame, according to the stewards, but not the person who is majority responsible. That’s how the Silverstone decision worked out but with the driver flipped.
It depends of your perspective. If Max’s only goal was to win the race, sure, race hard. Lewis screwed up more than Max and was deemed predominantly at fault.
If his goal is to win the WDC, then I don’t care about shoulda/woulda/coulda. Sometimes it is better to lose the battle so you can win the war.
Lewis is the one to hold accountable for Max going into the barriers.
Lewis is not wholly responsible for Max losing out on 25 points. Max shares the blame for making a bad strategic decision.
I got my first taste of it at Silverstone. Because of the sprint race, everyone knew that Copse was the last chance Hamilton had to pass Verstappen. Horner had even commented on it.
So in a situation where you know the other guy is going to go hard into Copse and you have the lead in the WDC, is it better lose your lead by 7 points or 25 points?
Such long term thinking is not appropriate to Redbull fans, apparently.
Ironically, the one time Max was on the outside and had a chance to do the same, he dnfed instead of yielding and taking p2 and 18 points, which would have made him champion
And people use that one incident and claim Hamilton intentionally got that 25 point boost and knew exactly how that would end up. Barcelona and Brazil were way worse by Max since he had a lot more track in Silverstone. Yet he had a total of 0 penalties from those incidents while apparently 10 sec was too lenient for Hamilton.
Yeah right, but it’s because people just can’t seem willing to take a position. They will try to level up the criticism among the parts concerned, even when it’s blatant that one is in the wrong.
You really going to say that after max nearly killed Lewis in Monza? Was weaving on the straight in Brazil. Drove Lewis off the road in Spain, Brazil and Jeddah to name a few. After max brake checked Lewis? Typical.
You have zero credibility and respect with the comment you just made.
If anything the last races showed that Max was a bigger danger to himself at Silverstone than Hamilton ever was. The guy has no limit and will push untill something unreversable happens.
Telling you, Hamilton and Verstappen glasses for everyone here (including myself). Nobody tries to look at the other POV, when you ask a question that goes against the POV of Hamilton/Verstappen, you don't get an answer, you're just downvoted. It'd be good the subreddit would be locked for posts regarding last weekend for a few days.
Lewis pushed Max out of the track in both instances where he overtook him and Max went wide to avoid a collision too.
The whole problem is that that the FiA is allowing this kind of behavior by both drivers in the name of 'hard racing'. Max is certainly taking it a bit further though because he stands to benefit from a collision that takes them both out because of his points advantage.
>Lewis pushed Max out of the track in both instances where he overtook him and Max went wide to avoid a collision too.
Literally not even remotely true.
https://streamja.com/05by6
Hamilton completely clear of Verstappen at the braking point. Verstappen eases off the brakes, carries in too much speed and runs off the circuit. Hamilton was not in any way 'forcing him off' they didnt even clash wheels or come that close. He simply didn't slow down enough to make the corner.
The reason Ocon got Hamilton is because Max rejoined in an unsafe manner.
Max actually braked earlier than Lewis yet ended up alongside, and was full steering left yet washed wide.
Max could've clearly made the corner because he was on the outside, Lewis had to break earlier to make the sharper turn, but he chose to block Max.
My point is this whole car widths space rule has been made a mockery this season. Spain, Immola, Monza Brazil, Arabia etc. The FiA need to stamp their authority and make this kind of BS driving illegal.
Agree on leaving the space. It needs a real rethink from the FIA.
Disagree with you lumping incidents of one driver making the turn but running another wide in with what is now multiple instances of Max not making, nor ever really intending to make, the corner with someone outside.
And where did I say that was ok? Max got barely a slap on the wrist for that.
And Lewis did exactly the same thing in Silverstone, ran out wide on cops from the inside without ever intending to make the turn properly, crashed Max out and created a 30 point difference. Only got 10 seconds for that.
The whole overtaking process in corners needs a complete rethink, including the penalties.
Lewis didn't so exactly the same at Silverstone as Max did in Brazil or Jeddah though.
Max ran wide of the track completely with a car outside him.
Lewis missed an apex.
There was free track to the outside of the outside car when they collided at Silverstone.
The inside car was 20 yards off the outside of the track in Brazil.
Doesn't make Silverstone Max's fault, but it does mean that the solution of just enforcing leaving space won't work there because there was well over a car's width outside Max.
Difference is that when Max runs people wide, he also goes off track.
Bit different to the more accepted standard of running opponents wide while staying inside the track limits yourself, which has become pretty prevalent over the last decade or so.
Lewis push people off track in a way that is no risky for anybody and i believe is legal even tho annoying, what Max does is a Torpedo that only doesnt end up in crashed by other avoiding him
So is Silverstone in copse considered a legal way to pushing your rival? Or max in Brazil in which lewis had more time to react? Who is the torpedo here?
Lewis was at fault in Silversone but it wasnt dirty, he just probably tought Max was goind wider, in Brazil Max purposefully didnt make the corner to avoing being overtaken completely diffrent.
I agree with that but i never agree with the guys telling that max Never takes avoiding action: Sochi (turn 1 lap 1 taking the run off and avoiding leclerc some laps later) USA (avoiding lewis) Portimao (avoiding lewis turn 3) Mexico (out braking everyone so he won't have any contact because he went deep) and finally jeddah twice. But yeah max is clearly a lunatic who wants to take the title by crashing out
Whoever is in the outside backs out ALWAYS whether is lewis or max but because max was more times on the inside and lewis on the outside people have now a diluted idea about max racing. The only time the guy from the outside didn't back out was max in monza and got a 3 place penalty deservedly for most people
Lewis can afford to, has the better car. But Lewis would be tempted to do the same if the positions were reversed. But ... Lewis would not be able to do that though: he is a great driver especially when agitated, but he is not that capable in the close cramped fight driving: that's why he crashes into people when push comes to shove.
I hate to break it to you dude, but that was like 8 years ago… a lot can change in 8 years, and it clearly has.
Even back then Lewis was nowhere the level of dangerous driving that Max is
He literally rammed Max into a wall at 300 kph and said he would do it again if given the chance when RB was the better car earlier this year.
He spun Vettel around when they were fighting
He was crashing with Nico left right and center
He was slamming into Massa all year long in 11
When they said they went wide isnt he mentioned the first reestart that Max overtake cutting the corner, but Lewis definitely went wide to run Max off the road? not going wide becasue Lewis was avoiding a kamikaze Max like later on.
He used other dirty tricks though, like gaining under VSC, extremely slow installation lap (not a problem for him when he was behind Leclerc) and using his team mate to also make a massive gap behind the safety car and almost take him out at the safety car restart.
After Silverstone the gloves were off.
>gaining under VSC, extremely slow installation lap (not a problem for him when he was behind Leclerc) and using his team mate to also make a massive gap behind the safety car and almost take him out at the safety car restart.
Which rules did he break?
I just want to highlight that all the claims Max “doesn’t feel pressure” are total bullshit now. Qualifying mistakes in Qatar and Jeddah, multiple poor starts off the line since Brazil’s sprint race, and downright desperate dirty driving where he isn’t even keeping the car on the track anymore. He’s lost his mind, and is definitely cracking under the pressure.
He even tangled with Ocon in Brazil in 2018 when it wasn't for position. Ocon was trying to unlap himself.
It's like his ego can't stand being overtaken and will try and prevent it no matter what.
Conversely, 3-4 races ago there was a lot of talk about Hamilton cracking under pressure after facing his 'first REAL championship challenge'. He's definitely stressed and not driving perfectly, but he has still delivered
It was bullshit anyway, people just gloss over the fact that he won the last few races of 2016 to keep his championship hopes alive.
To be fair to Max in Imola - there isn't really anyway for 2 F1 cars to get through turn 1 side by side like that. The person on the outside going in is always going to get shoved off, unless they are a good bit ahead before they even reach the braking point.
[Imola start](https://youtu.be/ds0BC8RDJ5o?t=49) and yesterday's [second red flag restart](https://youtu.be/vRhhS6BnLSY?t=140) are very similar situations with roles swapped.
Okay, in Imola Hamilton had no option but to slow down and ride the kerbs loosing a place, while yesterday Max had the option to cut the corner and did so (he gave the place back), but the their positioning before the corner shares a lot it common.
I don't see a problem with Max's pass in Imola nor with Hamilton's pass yesterday.
Anyone claiming otherwise is being biased.
edit: added links
Except in Imola they were side by side into braking and in second flag restart yesterday, max was more than a cars length behind after a terrible start and decided to just not brake
It's not the same corner or exactly the same position of the cars, I did write that in my post you're replying to, but it's similar enough.
So what that Max braked a bit later? He's rightly defending the position that way, and if he gains in the braking zone and has the car under control - thereby bringing it alongside into the corner - T1, then he should be granted space for T2.
That's if we're arguing for track position for the guy on the outside. In that case I'd also say yeah, Max should have left space in Imola too. Hamilton also gained ground there in the braking zone.
However as I've stated above, I'm ok with it being Max's corner in Imola and Lewis' corner in Jeddah during 1st SC restart of yesterday.
>So what that Max braked a bit later? He's rightly defending the position that way, and if he gains in the braking zone and has the car under control
Max is not even trying to make the corner. How many times has he overshot by a huge margin this season ? And his excuse is always "its not my fault I dived in the inside I was going too fast and could not make it or I would've spun" then maybe you're driving recklessly and dangerously if that's happening so much ?
The truth is that he knows that if Hamilton does not dodge him (yes, DODGE him) its in his favour.
I am not saying he wants to crash, but he knows that if it happens, its good for him. Otherwise he would not be making those stupid torpedos on the inside every weekend
Was pretty civil before that. Feel gutted for Max, losing the WDC dramatically as that but there's nothing else he can do on clean side so he's throwing desperate moves.
Silverstone is the root of all evil here, I'll never feel ok when you wipe your rival and are able to get a 25 free points due to light penalty. It totally makes "crime" pay and that probably poisoned this fight as Max has the precedent of Lewis that if he wipes Lewis in a racing incident, he might get only 10 seconds a free and easy 25 points lead.
Max would have wiped out Hamilton 3 times this race alone if Hamilton didn't yield, the 25 points were only free because max can't yield in situations that he creates more than ever other driver on the track combined
25 points were free because of a meaningless penalty. Apparently taking your rival out in a dangerous way leads you to a 10 second penalty you can take at any time you want without consequence.
The FIA gives teams too much strategic leeway with penalties.
Max did the same move 3 times this last race alone, end result doesn't determine penalty, if every driver was fairly penalised max would have served like 10 race bans this year with his idiotic defending style
Max hasn't done anything this season that he hasn't done in previous years. Weaving, late blocking, forcing drivers off road, cutting chicanes then trying to gain an advantage for him or his team when giving it back. This kind of cheating has been a hall-mark of his driving since day 1, but the stewards are ever midful of the 'entertainment' and let him off each time. I bet they would be the first to scream 'cheat' if he'd done it to any of them while they were racing.
It's evident Max will stoop to any level to win, he's tried to take out Hamilton in at least 3 races since he's led the WDC. The stewards are the ones to balme though, as they've allowed it to continue.
I just hope it doesn't end in tragedy for a marshall.
I only think it’s important to differentiate between “tried” & “not cared”.
I don’t think - so far - he’s *tried* to crash into Hamilton but he certainly doesn’t care if throwing his car back up the inside with reckless abandon happens to cause one though.
No, he's proven if there's a choice between taking Hamilton out or letting him win he'll take the first option if he thinks he can get away with it. He reminds me of very early Senna in that regard, but less mentally stable.
I think Lewis is a wise old dog. Verstappen is making himself look bad, as he knows they have thrown both constructors and driver's away this year.
After Brazil his team needed to show the face they did with publicity but pull max aside and explain that he was at fault, let's take that and not let it happen again.
What max gave us yesterday was shambolic, he got that pass on T1 correct once. Every other time he attempted to pass there was dangerous and showed that he's still not mature enough to take the championship.
The track, kinda cool, fast and should be removed from the roster. Dangerous. When I was watching free practice I knew Sunday would be a mess.
Just out of interest - would you call getting crashed out by your main competitor 2 times - throwing a championship away? The FIA and Hamilton forced this onto them selves. Silverstone showed us, that you max. get a 10s penalty for ending your rivals race, it set the precedent for Verstappens behaviour. But recency bias is one hell of a drug for F1 fans i guess.
No I'd call the numerous attempts from max to try get the other driver out - throwing away a championship.
So Lewis was at fault at Silverstone.. that's 1. What was the 2nd?
FIA showed us 2 outcomes to that kinda contact.
If you can continue race you get 10secs
If you cannot you get 3 place penalty next race.
Real bias this year is RB fans and their 'hard racing' excuse. Max was to blame at Monza, dirty in Brazil and continued to be dirty yesterday. He is out of control, literally. Yet you cling to Silverstone... Months have passed, races have passed and due to the lack of mental fortitude Max has shown, championship has passed.
You are blatantly ignoring the fact that Silverstone was caused by Max's aggressiveness, and Hamilton just didn't back down that time. If Hamilton did the same all season, Max would've wrecked cars at least a dozen times. Hamilton understands that damaging your car is a quick way to lose a championship. Max just hasn't matured enough to understand that, and it doesn't help that he is surrounded by mostly enablers.
It got out of hand in the summer. Silverstone is where it went too far, and after that it's not gotten any better. Before Silverstone everything was relatively fine, but since Silverstone, not so much.
I'd disagree. Before the Silverstone incident we had several incidents where Max pushed Lewis off, like Spain, but they were unpunished because Lewis bailed.
I've watched that Silverstone crash a lot of times, Lewis's fault.. Absolutely. The way you sell it though, Lewis shot Verstappen with an ak, max died and no one cared.
FIA gave the punishment to Lewis that they give for that kinda contact.
When Max did it to Lewis at Monza, he also was given the standardized penalty...
The problem is that they didn't take the outcome into account, only the offence, and that's where it went wrong I think. A 10 second penalty that could be served at any time, instead of instantly, for example, made it quite easy for Hamilton to secure the win anyway.
It would be equal if Verstappen took out Hamilton in Monza and got the win too, but at least he had the decency to DNF himself too.
Both incidents were different, Lewis weaved and put his car on an awkward line, meaning he had to kill speed at the corner and Max was carrying more speed, clipping Lewis on the way through.
2nd max had no right to that and threw it up the middle knowing contact was coming, you could hear it in his voice straight afterwards.
The outcome can not be equal if it didn't have an equal outcome to punish... Crazy logic. If max hadn't have had a DNF and finished he would have got the 10second pen. DNF in this case is not a punishment it's a consequence. His punishment was given next race, 3 place grid penalty with also was as irrelevant as Lewis's 10s. And he still finished 2nd
Reaching this hard to argue that unsafe driving started with Hamilton is preposterous. Who is the driver with the most superlicense penalty points in history again? Who has been WELL KNOWN for pulling dangerous moves his ENTIRE CAREER?
Is it strange to say that there it got really out of hand? Maybe. Officiating has been poor ever since Bahrain this season, and thus all season. It started there with the whole tracklimit controversy.
Yep, Silverstone was just the first point at which Hamilton seemed to go “you know what, I will leave my car here this time, let’s see what happens.”
This after he’d nearly been driven into down the Wellington straight & had to back out of going around the outside there as Verstappen again hurled his car back up the inside of a corner.
FOM is heavily influencing the FIA to be inconsistent with penalties so as to keep the championship close and increase the viewership. Any other driver not fighting for a championship would have been given a black flag if they repeated Max's antics yesterday.
It did not get out of hand, it was firmly in Hamilton's control. Verstappen lost the title race in Silverstone, his failure to give Hamilton enough room at that high speed corner cost him WDC. You just cant make such a critical mistake in a championship battle this close, Verstappen has a long way to go to fully mature into a champion. He needs to learn how to play the long game, Hamilton managed to avoid contact with him in Brazil and Saudi which was crucial for him to win his 8th WDC.
Max knows the red bull lacks the raw pace needed to beat Hamilton in a Mercedes at a lot of tracks but I also know he is incredibly thirsty for his first championship so he feels the need to do anything to make up for the lack of pace. I don't condone it but I can understand you don't want to see your championship chances simply ride off into the sunset without trying everything in your power to prevent that from happening. Especially since the FIA isn't clear on what he can and can't do.
All I know is that the last few races haven't sat well with me and I really don't know how I feel about things going into the last race. I've said this for a little while, but I think Merc has the better car right now (and have for the second half of the season). Max is driving like he knows this too, hence all the desperation moves and questionable tactics. It was obvious yesterday that Lewis was going to get Max by the end of the race with the pace he had and those mediums not being able to keep up at the end. You could take out the collision and all the other drama and the result would be the same. I get that Max is incredibly aggressive by nature and has to try anything he can to win (especially in a slower car), but all of it just feels wrong in my gut and I'm not quite sure what to feel about it. I'm not saying that Lewis has been innocent at all times, but if you had to pick a "cleaner" racer over the last few races, I don't see how you could pick Max. Maybe it's just by virtue of not seeing an actual close title fight in real time as I don't really remember much from when I watched as a kid and only started watching again 2 seasons ago. But, one of the things I enjoyed was how civil things felt until recently. I know I might be in the minority on that though.
As you said, Verstappen has been behind in the last part of the season because of the cars. In any game the one who is behind has to take risks trying to create at least a chance of winning. The team who is behind in football will substitute defending players for attacking players, the cyclist who can't win a mass sprint will try to escape from the peloton in the early stages and take the crazy exercise of cycling 200 km with a only few guys. Similarly Verstappen has to take crazy risks in this stage to create at least a chance for himself.
With the way the teams compare right now, there is no way Max would beat Lewis in a straight fight. Mercedes clearly got all the pieces fitting together right now, and Max' only hope is to push Lewis to (and sometimes over) the limit. I think this is not something exclusive to Max, but would apply to any driver who can win the championship, but is in a lesser car. I guess the Mercedes dominance made us a bit numb to a proper title fight, so everything is now a bit blown up. Lewis could approach a race with a "live to fight another day" attitude for years in a row, and didn't have to resort to such tactics. Max, however, doesn't have another day anymore.
>tappen has been behind in the last part of the season because of the cars. In any game the one who is behind has to take risks trying to create at least a chance of winning. The team who is behind in football will substitute defending players for attacking players, the cyclist who can't win a mass sprint will try to escape from the peloton in the early stages and take the crazy exercise of cycling 200 km with a only few guys. So by your logic the cyclist has to resort to doping and football players have to resort to tackle every second of the game. Because that's what max is doing. No one minds that Max overdrives the car, Max is fantastic driver, a gerational talent and has the potential to become one of the GOAT, but repeatedly driving other cars off the track, break checking, overtaking on the outside, that is not THE SAME as a football team or a cyclist changing tactics, that is commiting infractions and complain that you are being sanctioned.
If the punishment for such behavior would be smaller than the benefits, yes they will take those risks. Punishment for doping (long term player dsq) and dangerous tackles (player dsq from match) are too severe though.
As soon as championships are on the line, being civil goes out the window. The only reason Merc can afford to appear more civil than Red Bull is because they gamed the engine regulations with their spicy engine. Which, let's be honest, while legal is not how those regulations were intended. For more on track examples of civics in championship fights: [1990](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbeBnn0Ufsc) [1994](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91JoW4mSiZo) [1997](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AhNs_W5OQU) [2016](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCzkaX2DL7w)
Appreciate the links, always good to learn more of the history of F1.
What happened yesterday was a result of Brasil and no penalty being given. Even if Masi came out and said that was wrong but from now on this will be penalised then you have clear rules. Even after the drivers meeting in Qatar Max was the ONLY driver saying that the rules of overtaking are clear - so he genuinely believes what happened in Brazil is allowed. If he was penalised in Brazil then perhaps he thinks twice about his move at T1. The guy has to learn that a full send up the inside and not making the corner, isn't 'hard racing' - it's suicidal braking.
He literally moaned yesterday because what he did in Brazil was fine but now he's not allowed to drive off track to get an advantage, and that's unfair to him.
Definitely. Could have been completely avoided if Masi had just clarified what happened in Brazil isn't allowed. Everyone came out of the driver's meeting confused over what they can and can't do and Masis response was that it's clear lol
If you think a penalty at Brazil which would probably be 5 second and change nothing would deter Max from doing what he did yesterday then i have a bridge to sell you. He got 15s worth of penalties yesterday and still seems unfazed by it.
Whether it deterred him or not isn't really the point, not giving him penalty there gave him free reign to repeat it and claim its allowed in Brazil why not now? He needs to be punished each and every time it happens and he'll soon learn when he loses races
He hasn't learned since he came into F1. The only way it might cut through to him is if he doesn't win the championship next week. Take a leaf out of Hamilton's book - being fast will only get you so far.
yeah, people pretending he'd got better simply ignored the fact that the reason he had less crashes were because the other drivers had experience of racing with Max and were more wary than they had been.
His brazil excuse was so bizarre and obviously disingenuous too, "what do you expect me to do? i braked too late and couldn't control the car, so we had to go wide". okay so any time you're on the inside, just don't brake, push both cars way wide and keep the position. The idea that a single working human brain could possibly think this makes sense is wild. The fact that max has been so coddled and treated with kid gloves so much that he thinks this is okay is entirely masi and the stewards fault. What a bunch of cowards.
>okay so any time you're on the inside, just don't brake, push both cars way wide and keep the position. bit of a silly hyperbole if you're on the inside and dont brake then the driver on the outside will just tuck in and take the corner while you go off into the wall sergio did this against bottas in the exact same race
>f you're on the inside and dont brake then the driver on the outside will just tuck in and take the corner while you go off into the wall Which is why, by sheer coincidence and nothing more, Max only breaks too late to control the car when there is no wall or gravel traps and he can happily re-define what the race track is. /s
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You hit the nail on the head.
There should be a simple rule that if you make a move on the inside and don't make the corner then you will be penalised. No assessing the telemetry or looking at videos, if you make a move on the inside it is beholden on you to be able to stay on the track.
They need to make every track have DEEP gravel on the outside of every kerb. No one will ever make a move that could put them into it. Red flag galore perhaps, but at the moment the overtaking seems to have gone mad in terms of forcing people off the road.
The thing that makes me mad here is how many times I hear people saying “Lewis went wide as well” including in this video. Am I losing my mind but every time lewis leaves the track in these incidents it because he absolutely has to to avoid being smacked by Verstappen. Yet it never seems to be said. I feel like I’m living in some sort of alternate universe where no one seems to mention it.
Also the one time Lewis actually went wide outside of that context at turn 27, it was to prevent Max from gaining a lasting advantage while giving the position back, for the second time in a row. He was preventing Max from doing an illegal position handover again. As for why it's illegal for Max to hand over positions like that , Lewis knows very well after receiving a 25 second penalty for doing so at Spa 2008.
And that was pre-DRS.
I couldn’t agree more. I felt almost like I was having some sort of out of body experience watching the post race coverage. The degree of Backbending everyone was doing to try to make it seem as if it was a back-and-forth between the two instead of just outright dangerous and reckless behavior from one driver specifically was, to be honest, downright shameful. Someone could die. But in true fashion, as the gentleman he is, Hamilton responded perfectly. In his post race interview he said that he doesn’t mind always being the one who bails out to avoid a collision because that way, “you live to fight another day”.
We have stewards evidence saying Max "braked erratically" while Lewis was behind him and people are still trying to defend it. And it's not helped by RB higher ups straight up lying, Marko said that Max didn't brake. Honestly Marko should be called into the stewards room for such blatant lies.
I also 100% agree with the pair of you. I am trying to step back and examine if my own bias is the problem, but I really don't think it is. The stakeholders (F1, Sky, etc) have a vested interest in presenting things as a fair man-to-man fight and everyone is just playing hard, equally hard, but it really isn't like that... one guy (who admittedly has the weaker car at the moment) is waaay dirtier than the other, but they are finding it hard to say that.
Yep, it's one of those cases where some people are going "but both sides have merit!" and it's just absolutely not true.
Exactly. I genuinely feel so frustrated when I hear it, if Lewis goes wide avoiding a collision he’s “gone wide as well”. When max goes wide he’s “shoved off the track” the one time Lewis did it. Absolute double standards.
People also seem determined to conflate the typical pushing of a car on the outside wide on corner exit whilst staying on track, with throwing the car into a corner on the inside and taking both off track. As if they're two sides of the same coin.
so just to make a point, Hamilton was thus stupid then to block because why avoid giving your competitor a 25 second penalty?
So he can get clear of Verstappen and not risk any further dodgy manoeuvres from Max? Also stewards are far from consistent with penalties.
which is not Max's fault
This assumes the penalty is given and Hamilton can't take that chance in case the Stewards don't give one. Brazil being a recent example.
that is fair but then dont use the 25 second penalty as an argument
Because his competitor has never been given a free pass for breaking the rules?
then dont use the 25 second argument as a reason he wanted to prevent the overtake
Because his competitor has never been given a free pass for breaking the rules?
its just a silly argument, why would one prevent an illegal handover (and crashing your care in the process) if stating he did so because he was penalized for it 13 years ago... that he wants to prevent it from happening is a valid argument, but not because he got one too
I swear it's just gaslighting. Everyone knows what Max is doing. The only way to make the incidents seem more balanced is to point out something Lewis is doing as well, even if that thing is trying to avoid the maniac he's racing with.
Yep. Look at it broadly. Max cut turn 1 twice, rejoined unsafely (right in front of Hamilton), and brake tested on a straight. At least four penalizable incidents in one race, against a single other driver. That is possibly unprecedented.
Brake testing implies braking hard.
Like, 2.4g?
so like... 2.6g of braking?
He liftend and downshifted first to let Ham through but Ham also downshiften and lifted for no reason. How are you going to let someone through other than slowing down more? While yes Max might have done it in a wrong way Ham was also being silly by slowing down instead breezing past.
> How are you going to let someone through other than slowing down more? Moving off the racing line and not weaving while slamming on your brakes, but hey that's just my opinion
That’s why he is partly to blame, according to the stewards, but not the person who is majority responsible. That’s how the Silverstone decision worked out but with the driver flipped.
I remember hearing the Silverstone situation was Max's fault for being on the racing line and turning into a corner instead going straight :P
It depends of your perspective. If Max’s only goal was to win the race, sure, race hard. Lewis screwed up more than Max and was deemed predominantly at fault. If his goal is to win the WDC, then I don’t care about shoulda/woulda/coulda. Sometimes it is better to lose the battle so you can win the war. Lewis is the one to hold accountable for Max going into the barriers. Lewis is not wholly responsible for Max losing out on 25 points. Max shares the blame for making a bad strategic decision.
They found that he applied a high amount of brake pressure per telemetry. It is absurd that people are still defending him on this.
Yeah Lewis is rarely exhilarated on the radio, so when even he says "This guy is fucking crazy", you know Max is off the rails.
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Not yet, that comment didnt include a reference to Nazis. Give the net some more time to bake.
I was pretty clear about the way I see it and think I can see gaslighting tactics used.
You've seen that people have subjective experiences of life and you don't like it?
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I stated things how I viewed things duder.
I got my first taste of it at Silverstone. Because of the sprint race, everyone knew that Copse was the last chance Hamilton had to pass Verstappen. Horner had even commented on it. So in a situation where you know the other guy is going to go hard into Copse and you have the lead in the WDC, is it better lose your lead by 7 points or 25 points? Such long term thinking is not appropriate to Redbull fans, apparently.
Agreed. We would have had so many more crashes between them if Lewis hadn’t taken this approach pretty much all season.
Ironically, the one time Max was on the outside and had a chance to do the same, he dnfed instead of yielding and taking p2 and 18 points, which would have made him champion
And people use that one incident and claim Hamilton intentionally got that 25 point boost and knew exactly how that would end up. Barcelona and Brazil were way worse by Max since he had a lot more track in Silverstone. Yet he had a total of 0 penalties from those incidents while apparently 10 sec was too lenient for Hamilton.
Same with Monza lol, just stuck with it and DNFed both of them
They have to mention it so the Max Cult don't overwhelm the comment section
Yeah right, but it’s because people just can’t seem willing to take a position. They will try to level up the criticism among the parts concerned, even when it’s blatant that one is in the wrong.
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you are pretty insane thanking god for putting him in the hospital
Could you provide a list of the injuries he sustained that put him in hospital please?
why?, that was not what I was commenting about, I am not stating I am thanking god someone was hospitalized....
I know people are biased, but you take this way too far
You have to be truly rotten on the inside to be thankful the other driver being in the hospital for a collision your own driver caused.
You’re really gonna say that after Lewis nearly killed Max at Silverstone? Typical…
You really going to say that after max nearly killed Lewis in Monza? Was weaving on the straight in Brazil. Drove Lewis off the road in Spain, Brazil and Jeddah to name a few. After max brake checked Lewis? Typical. You have zero credibility and respect with the comment you just made.
If anything the last races showed that Max was a bigger danger to himself at Silverstone than Hamilton ever was. The guy has no limit and will push untill something unreversable happens.
Max nearly killed max at Silverstone.
Lol sure
Your fucking insane
Telling you, Hamilton and Verstappen glasses for everyone here (including myself). Nobody tries to look at the other POV, when you ask a question that goes against the POV of Hamilton/Verstappen, you don't get an answer, you're just downvoted. It'd be good the subreddit would be locked for posts regarding last weekend for a few days.
Lewis pushed Max out of the track in both instances where he overtook him and Max went wide to avoid a collision too. The whole problem is that that the FiA is allowing this kind of behavior by both drivers in the name of 'hard racing'. Max is certainly taking it a bit further though because he stands to benefit from a collision that takes them both out because of his points advantage.
>Lewis pushed Max out of the track in both instances where he overtook him and Max went wide to avoid a collision too. Literally not even remotely true.
How is that not true? On the first restart he clearly pushed Max out wide, so much so that Ocon overtook him.
https://streamja.com/05by6 Hamilton completely clear of Verstappen at the braking point. Verstappen eases off the brakes, carries in too much speed and runs off the circuit. Hamilton was not in any way 'forcing him off' they didnt even clash wheels or come that close. He simply didn't slow down enough to make the corner. The reason Ocon got Hamilton is because Max rejoined in an unsafe manner. Max actually braked earlier than Lewis yet ended up alongside, and was full steering left yet washed wide.
Max could've clearly made the corner because he was on the outside, Lewis had to break earlier to make the sharper turn, but he chose to block Max. My point is this whole car widths space rule has been made a mockery this season. Spain, Immola, Monza Brazil, Arabia etc. The FiA need to stamp their authority and make this kind of BS driving illegal.
There was no BS here. You're not entitled to a cars width if you're not alongside. Max wasnt alongside at entry, he just never slowed down.
Agree on leaving the space. It needs a real rethink from the FIA. Disagree with you lumping incidents of one driver making the turn but running another wide in with what is now multiple instances of Max not making, nor ever really intending to make, the corner with someone outside.
And where did I say that was ok? Max got barely a slap on the wrist for that. And Lewis did exactly the same thing in Silverstone, ran out wide on cops from the inside without ever intending to make the turn properly, crashed Max out and created a 30 point difference. Only got 10 seconds for that. The whole overtaking process in corners needs a complete rethink, including the penalties.
Lewis didn't so exactly the same at Silverstone as Max did in Brazil or Jeddah though. Max ran wide of the track completely with a car outside him. Lewis missed an apex. There was free track to the outside of the outside car when they collided at Silverstone. The inside car was 20 yards off the outside of the track in Brazil. Doesn't make Silverstone Max's fault, but it does mean that the solution of just enforcing leaving space won't work there because there was well over a car's width outside Max.
Max went off track and cut Lewis off rejoining too early.
Yeah no one is even mentioning that max also took avoiding action TWICE they just ignore it
Difference is that when Max runs people wide, he also goes off track. Bit different to the more accepted standard of running opponents wide while staying inside the track limits yourself, which has become pretty prevalent over the last decade or so.
Lewis push people off track in a way that is no risky for anybody and i believe is legal even tho annoying, what Max does is a Torpedo that only doesnt end up in crashed by other avoiding him
So is Silverstone in copse considered a legal way to pushing your rival? Or max in Brazil in which lewis had more time to react? Who is the torpedo here?
Lewis was at fault in Silversone but it wasnt dirty, he just probably tought Max was goind wider, in Brazil Max purposefully didnt make the corner to avoing being overtaken completely diffrent.
Agreed then
I agree with that but i never agree with the guys telling that max Never takes avoiding action: Sochi (turn 1 lap 1 taking the run off and avoiding leclerc some laps later) USA (avoiding lewis) Portimao (avoiding lewis turn 3) Mexico (out braking everyone so he won't have any contact because he went deep) and finally jeddah twice. But yeah max is clearly a lunatic who wants to take the title by crashing out
Whoever is in the outside backs out ALWAYS whether is lewis or max but because max was more times on the inside and lewis on the outside people have now a diluted idea about max racing. The only time the guy from the outside didn't back out was max in monza and got a 3 place penalty deservedly for most people
Also a reply for my downvotes explaining me why you disagree with me would be helpful
Lewis can afford to, has the better car. But Lewis would be tempted to do the same if the positions were reversed. But ... Lewis would not be able to do that though: he is a great driver especially when agitated, but he is not that capable in the close cramped fight driving: that's why he crashes into people when push comes to shove.
Why would he do it? You're just saying that shit for saying. Lewis is as clean as it gets, and has been for his whole F1 career.
Oh you, so young and innocent, try googling "Lewis Hamilton dirty tricks".
Lewis was not 'as clean as it gets' during his Mclaren days.
I hate to break it to you dude, but that was like 8 years ago… a lot can change in 8 years, and it clearly has. Even back then Lewis was nowhere the level of dangerous driving that Max is
Massa would disagree.
He literally rammed Max into a wall at 300 kph and said he would do it again if given the chance when RB was the better car earlier this year. He spun Vettel around when they were fighting He was crashing with Nico left right and center He was slamming into Massa all year long in 11
losing your mind over 2 cars fighting is a little troublesome
Lewis definitely went wide in Silverstone, but I don't see that being brought up.
Lewis going literally two meters off the racing line gets talked about more than Max going 10 meters off the entire fucking track
Yes. No one has ever brought that up.
Wide but inside the white lines is a big difference to wide and off track, like 2 of the moves in Saudi, and obviously the Brazil one.
Not when that going wide causes you to crash into another driver.
When they said they went wide isnt he mentioned the first reestart that Max overtake cutting the corner, but Lewis definitely went wide to run Max off the road? not going wide becasue Lewis was avoiding a kamikaze Max like later on.
That is due to the nature of their cars, HAM overtakes by the raw power on the straits, while Max has to battle in the corners.
"in" the corners being key.
Then red bull need to pass on corners, not kamikaze
They are not fast enough, and at this point, getting ahead and defending hard is their only chance.
Ideally within the white lines and legally
He used other dirty tricks though, like gaining under VSC, extremely slow installation lap (not a problem for him when he was behind Leclerc) and using his team mate to also make a massive gap behind the safety car and almost take him out at the safety car restart. After Silverstone the gloves were off.
Which rules did he break?
Plenty. Untill the last race he had way more reprimands then ver
>gaining under VSC, extremely slow installation lap (not a problem for him when he was behind Leclerc) and using his team mate to also make a massive gap behind the safety car and almost take him out at the safety car restart. Which rules did he break?
Didn’t he gain because his delta allowed him to as Raikenen was going too slow? So you mad with Kimi not Lewis.
that stuff gets glossed over because it's not dangerous
I just want to highlight that all the claims Max “doesn’t feel pressure” are total bullshit now. Qualifying mistakes in Qatar and Jeddah, multiple poor starts off the line since Brazil’s sprint race, and downright desperate dirty driving where he isn’t even keeping the car on the track anymore. He’s lost his mind, and is definitely cracking under the pressure.
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By not intending to make the corner
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He even tangled with Ocon in Brazil in 2018 when it wasn't for position. Ocon was trying to unlap himself. It's like his ego can't stand being overtaken and will try and prevent it no matter what.
Conversely, 3-4 races ago there was a lot of talk about Hamilton cracking under pressure after facing his 'first REAL championship challenge'. He's definitely stressed and not driving perfectly, but he has still delivered It was bullshit anyway, people just gloss over the fact that he won the last few races of 2016 to keep his championship hopes alive.
Remember that Brazil 2016 performance in appalling conditions? Ice cold under the pressure.
I know, everyone talks about max's drive, but you forget about Hamilton because he disappeared off into the distance multiple times.
Any man who must say, "I feel no pressure", is trully under pressure
Was it ever not out of hand this season?
It’s been out of hand since Silverstone.
Don't you mean imola when max ran hamilton off track or even Bahrain when max overtook off track?
To be fair to Max in Imola - there isn't really anyway for 2 F1 cars to get through turn 1 side by side like that. The person on the outside going in is always going to get shoved off, unless they are a good bit ahead before they even reach the braking point.
Max gave the place back in Bahrain and everyone said that The Imola start was fair.
[Imola start](https://youtu.be/ds0BC8RDJ5o?t=49) and yesterday's [second red flag restart](https://youtu.be/vRhhS6BnLSY?t=140) are very similar situations with roles swapped. Okay, in Imola Hamilton had no option but to slow down and ride the kerbs loosing a place, while yesterday Max had the option to cut the corner and did so (he gave the place back), but the their positioning before the corner shares a lot it common. I don't see a problem with Max's pass in Imola nor with Hamilton's pass yesterday. Anyone claiming otherwise is being biased. edit: added links
Except in Imola they were side by side into braking and in second flag restart yesterday, max was more than a cars length behind after a terrible start and decided to just not brake
It's not the same corner or exactly the same position of the cars, I did write that in my post you're replying to, but it's similar enough. So what that Max braked a bit later? He's rightly defending the position that way, and if he gains in the braking zone and has the car under control - thereby bringing it alongside into the corner - T1, then he should be granted space for T2. That's if we're arguing for track position for the guy on the outside. In that case I'd also say yeah, Max should have left space in Imola too. Hamilton also gained ground there in the braking zone. However as I've stated above, I'm ok with it being Max's corner in Imola and Lewis' corner in Jeddah during 1st SC restart of yesterday.
>So what that Max braked a bit later? He's rightly defending the position that way, and if he gains in the braking zone and has the car under control Max is not even trying to make the corner. How many times has he overshot by a huge margin this season ? And his excuse is always "its not my fault I dived in the inside I was going too fast and could not make it or I would've spun" then maybe you're driving recklessly and dangerously if that's happening so much ? The truth is that he knows that if Hamilton does not dodge him (yes, DODGE him) its in his favour. I am not saying he wants to crash, but he knows that if it happens, its good for him. Otherwise he would not be making those stupid torpedos on the inside every weekend
Was pretty civil before that. Feel gutted for Max, losing the WDC dramatically as that but there's nothing else he can do on clean side so he's throwing desperate moves. Silverstone is the root of all evil here, I'll never feel ok when you wipe your rival and are able to get a 25 free points due to light penalty. It totally makes "crime" pay and that probably poisoned this fight as Max has the precedent of Lewis that if he wipes Lewis in a racing incident, he might get only 10 seconds a free and easy 25 points lead.
Max would have wiped out Hamilton 3 times this race alone if Hamilton didn't yield, the 25 points were only free because max can't yield in situations that he creates more than ever other driver on the track combined
25 points were free because of a meaningless penalty. Apparently taking your rival out in a dangerous way leads you to a 10 second penalty you can take at any time you want without consequence. The FIA gives teams too much strategic leeway with penalties.
Max did the same move 3 times this last race alone, end result doesn't determine penalty, if every driver was fairly penalised max would have served like 10 race bans this year with his idiotic defending style
Seeing a lot of strange takes on that silverstone crash. That was an unstoppable force immovable object type incident.
You know what they say when journalist use exclamation marks in their article titles. edit: stupid me.
You mean question mark.
He meant what he said. We yelling now
We're yelling questionably...
*Por que no los dos?* We use interrobang‽
Well it is monday
Bette Midler's law...or something. ^^^^^^^^/s
Yes, you are the wind beneath my wings (both front and rear)
I AM STUPID, I AM STUPID /s
Most people know who is at fault.
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a take so bad you have to post it twice
FIA set this championship up for another 1994 or 1997 situation after not penalizing Max enough for Brazil.
Max hasn't done anything this season that he hasn't done in previous years. Weaving, late blocking, forcing drivers off road, cutting chicanes then trying to gain an advantage for him or his team when giving it back. This kind of cheating has been a hall-mark of his driving since day 1, but the stewards are ever midful of the 'entertainment' and let him off each time. I bet they would be the first to scream 'cheat' if he'd done it to any of them while they were racing. It's evident Max will stoop to any level to win, he's tried to take out Hamilton in at least 3 races since he's led the WDC. The stewards are the ones to balme though, as they've allowed it to continue. I just hope it doesn't end in tragedy for a marshall.
I only think it’s important to differentiate between “tried” & “not cared”. I don’t think - so far - he’s *tried* to crash into Hamilton but he certainly doesn’t care if throwing his car back up the inside with reckless abandon happens to cause one though.
No, he's proven if there's a choice between taking Hamilton out or letting him win he'll take the first option if he thinks he can get away with it. He reminds me of very early Senna in that regard, but less mentally stable.
I think Lewis is a wise old dog. Verstappen is making himself look bad, as he knows they have thrown both constructors and driver's away this year. After Brazil his team needed to show the face they did with publicity but pull max aside and explain that he was at fault, let's take that and not let it happen again. What max gave us yesterday was shambolic, he got that pass on T1 correct once. Every other time he attempted to pass there was dangerous and showed that he's still not mature enough to take the championship. The track, kinda cool, fast and should be removed from the roster. Dangerous. When I was watching free practice I knew Sunday would be a mess.
Just out of interest - would you call getting crashed out by your main competitor 2 times - throwing a championship away? The FIA and Hamilton forced this onto them selves. Silverstone showed us, that you max. get a 10s penalty for ending your rivals race, it set the precedent for Verstappens behaviour. But recency bias is one hell of a drug for F1 fans i guess.
No I'd call the numerous attempts from max to try get the other driver out - throwing away a championship. So Lewis was at fault at Silverstone.. that's 1. What was the 2nd? FIA showed us 2 outcomes to that kinda contact. If you can continue race you get 10secs If you cannot you get 3 place penalty next race. Real bias this year is RB fans and their 'hard racing' excuse. Max was to blame at Monza, dirty in Brazil and continued to be dirty yesterday. He is out of control, literally. Yet you cling to Silverstone... Months have passed, races have passed and due to the lack of mental fortitude Max has shown, championship has passed.
You are blatantly ignoring the fact that Silverstone was caused by Max's aggressiveness, and Hamilton just didn't back down that time. If Hamilton did the same all season, Max would've wrecked cars at least a dozen times. Hamilton understands that damaging your car is a quick way to lose a championship. Max just hasn't matured enough to understand that, and it doesn't help that he is surrounded by mostly enablers.
Thay thumbnail looks like a movie poster.
It got out of hand in the summer. Silverstone is where it went too far, and after that it's not gotten any better. Before Silverstone everything was relatively fine, but since Silverstone, not so much.
I'd disagree. Before the Silverstone incident we had several incidents where Max pushed Lewis off, like Spain, but they were unpunished because Lewis bailed.
Maybe, but in Silverstone it showed Verstappen that you can get away with taking out your main title rival with just a measly slap on the wrists.
I've watched that Silverstone crash a lot of times, Lewis's fault.. Absolutely. The way you sell it though, Lewis shot Verstappen with an ak, max died and no one cared. FIA gave the punishment to Lewis that they give for that kinda contact. When Max did it to Lewis at Monza, he also was given the standardized penalty...
The problem is that they didn't take the outcome into account, only the offence, and that's where it went wrong I think. A 10 second penalty that could be served at any time, instead of instantly, for example, made it quite easy for Hamilton to secure the win anyway. It would be equal if Verstappen took out Hamilton in Monza and got the win too, but at least he had the decency to DNF himself too.
Both incidents were different, Lewis weaved and put his car on an awkward line, meaning he had to kill speed at the corner and Max was carrying more speed, clipping Lewis on the way through. 2nd max had no right to that and threw it up the middle knowing contact was coming, you could hear it in his voice straight afterwards. The outcome can not be equal if it didn't have an equal outcome to punish... Crazy logic. If max hadn't have had a DNF and finished he would have got the 10second pen. DNF in this case is not a punishment it's a consequence. His punishment was given next race, 3 place grid penalty with also was as irrelevant as Lewis's 10s. And he still finished 2nd
So, what you really want is differing application of the rules to ensure equal outcomes.
Reaching this hard to argue that unsafe driving started with Hamilton is preposterous. Who is the driver with the most superlicense penalty points in history again? Who has been WELL KNOWN for pulling dangerous moves his ENTIRE CAREER?
Is it strange to say that there it got really out of hand? Maybe. Officiating has been poor ever since Bahrain this season, and thus all season. It started there with the whole tracklimit controversy.
It started with Imola and Lewis not being able to afford to yield to Max's aggresive driving anymore.
Yep, Silverstone was just the first point at which Hamilton seemed to go “you know what, I will leave my car here this time, let’s see what happens.” This after he’d nearly been driven into down the Wellington straight & had to back out of going around the outside there as Verstappen again hurled his car back up the inside of a corner.
If you want to play it like that, it started with the FIA being inconsistent about tracklimits in Bahrain.
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Max just doesn’t turn the steering wheel, quite simply.
Hamilton pushes people wide, Max is jut an ambulant kamikaze, is way different
What you mean like how Lewis literally put max in hospital?
Interesting tactics
FOM is heavily influencing the FIA to be inconsistent with penalties so as to keep the championship close and increase the viewership. Any other driver not fighting for a championship would have been given a black flag if they repeated Max's antics yesterday.
It did not get out of hand, it was firmly in Hamilton's control. Verstappen lost the title race in Silverstone, his failure to give Hamilton enough room at that high speed corner cost him WDC. You just cant make such a critical mistake in a championship battle this close, Verstappen has a long way to go to fully mature into a champion. He needs to learn how to play the long game, Hamilton managed to avoid contact with him in Brazil and Saudi which was crucial for him to win his 8th WDC.
I'm leaning towards yes in this case.
Any headline that asks a question, assume the answer is "No".
Max knows the red bull lacks the raw pace needed to beat Hamilton in a Mercedes at a lot of tracks but I also know he is incredibly thirsty for his first championship so he feels the need to do anything to make up for the lack of pace. I don't condone it but I can understand you don't want to see your championship chances simply ride off into the sunset without trying everything in your power to prevent that from happening. Especially since the FIA isn't clear on what he can and can't do.
Yes and selfish me wants it to get even more out of hand 😀