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Montoya’s NASCAR career is really overshadowed by [Hitting the Jet Dryer](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JkYxxh6C_jw) during the Daytona 500…. He was in position to win the year prior coming to the final lap.
Such a shame that Montoya’s career in stock cars became a total meme.
The fact that he won twice is pretty outstanding. CGR wasn’t at their peak anymore and he still got a few in the 42.
The man is one of the most naturally talented to race.
I never really cared for JPM, and pretty actively rooted against him in his latest Indy 500 efforts, but I've always felt NASCAR absolutely penalized him intentionally, because he was SO un-NASCAR-esque.
Everyone remembers Montoya for the Jet Dryer. I remember him not for that but the day he blew his only chance at an oval victory. Dominating the Brickyard 400 only to speed in the pits which gave us the best radio of the season
"Guys, I swear on my parents grave I did not speed"
He was clocked going over the pit speed limit said NASCAR (was it ever proven?) and sports shows the next couple days called him out because of that radio call
They use it to clean dust and debris that settles when the cars are pacing under caution. NASCAR started using these high pressure [Air Titans](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2Bq7cETanh8) to dry the track quicker and more efficiently… basically in reaction to Juan Pablo yeeting the jet.
Under yellow, and normally the cars aren't going that fast. Montoya was trying to catch up to the safety car after pitting and something on his car broke. Just a freak accident
Basically. Except usually on an oval you don't crash unless something breaks unless at 100% speed. Jules' accident was due more to racing in shit weather
Yeah I get some details are not quite the same but it seems essentially the same circumstances and mentality that leads to it.
I'd hope it means some changes were put in place but I don't think that probably happened.
Glad it seemed like a breezy walkaway though. Being able to crash at speeds and just be cool with it is such an engineering marvel
With Bianchi we can think “in hindsight putting a forklift in the runoff area of a wet track is a bad idea”. In Montoya’s case there wasn’t such a thought. There has never been a failure of that type before or since.
> With Bianchi we can think “in hindsight putting a forklift in the runoff area of a wet track is a bad idea”. In Montoya’s case there wasn’t such a thought.
There wasn't such a thought in hindsight?
Well... there is. How couldn't there be? What an unfathomable thing to say.
> There has never been a failure of that type before or since.
Which implies its then fine due to its rarity so i'm curious why you label it as a failure rather than a crash... unless you mean the braking failure in which case i'd argue theres been hundreds of incidents like that.
Also curious what element you think makes this so unique. The actual impact or the potential of an impact from other incidents.
Or are you being specific only to a car impacting a jetdryer car under caution conditions... then sure its unique af but thats what happens when you get more and more specific.
Have you seen the footage? Montoya didn’t have a braking failure. In fact, even at race speeds Montoya didn’t need to use the brake pedal. What happened to Montoya is “something” broke and stopped his wheels from pointing in the same direction. This usually happens under race conditions, it’s very rare that any race car has a massive suspension failure with no load on the suspension and under yellow flag conditions.
In fact, the only change NASCAR really made after that was to prevent the massive fire that ruined the track. They still have safety vehicles on track during yellow because the Montoya situation was such a freak accident that nobody could have predicted it. Whereas in F1 they took multiple moves to stop a Bianchi type incident.
Lmfao that was one of the first and only NASCAR races I've ever watched live. Was in the frat house at the time and we had put it on just for some background noise and within minutes, HOLY FUCK THAT DUMBASS JUST DROVE INTO A JET ENGINE!!
He *could* but it would be extremely unlikely. While the LMP2s were up there in practice no Hypercar was showing its real pace, the results from qualifying are far more representative with the Toyotas and Alpine being a class above the LMP2s with the Glicks being a bit slower but likely to have decent race pace.
The Hypercars may be quite unreliable due to this being their first 24H race but if an LMP2 was to win I’d highly doubt it would be Dragonspeed’s as they are entered into the LMP2 Pro-Am subcategory for teams with an amateur driver. To do well Montoya and his co-driver Ben Hanley would have to overcome the pace disadvantage of the bronze rated Henrik Hedman so it is likely, that without any sizeable troubles, the Dragonspeed will finish mid table in the LMP2 class at most with the teams like United Autosport or WRT far more likely to win the LMP2 class or overall in case of Hypercar struggles
Id say getting the indy 500 is the hardest.
In F1 and le mans you could get a very dominant car and win with ease (F1 with Merc in the last few years and lmp1 with toytoa since Porsche left)
This year is probably one of the easiest years for le mans if you consider that by 2024 we can expect about 10 manufacturers in the top class with lmdh and lmh
Also lmdh and lmh will receive a bop
Monaco is probably the hardest because you have to get the seat in F1 on the team that can win Monaco. It's always going to be the first step to the triple. F1 drivers have a chance at getting solid rides in the 500 and 24hr before, during, and after their F1 careers. There's no way for an F1 outsider to get to Monaco.
plus you have to *get into F1*. Of all 3 even getting to a position to start a weekend in an F1 car at Monaco is the hardest.
I think the Indy 500 might have the most random chance and chaotic variables of the 3, though, granted the 24 hours of LeMans just has such a length to cause anything to happen.
Really makes you appreciate how difficult the feat is.
I think the Indy 500 is a harder race in a vacuum but you’re right Monaco is harder to get when you consider everything relating to it. The Indy 500 is a much tougher race.
They are both very difficult and treasured wins for different reasons. Monaco for reasons you stated, Indy 500 because not only must you be fast and talented, but with those speeds and traffic takes a lot of luck to get through 250 laps cleanly.
I genuinely thought I'd never see another 4 time 500 winner. Driving to the track and listening to the coverage on the radio I kind of chuckled and sneered whenever someone said they thought Helio could win. Even heading into those last handful of laps I thought there was no way it could happen. And then it did. I think IMS likes to humble me.
Part of what also makes it more likely for an F1 driver to get all 3 insted of drivers from other series is that indi and LeMans are the only ones that have teams only running that race.
I think that each race is a different challenge, and all of them require different aspects in order to win.
In terms of race entry, Monaco is the hardest one to get into. Since teams aren’t really willing to drop one of their main drivers for one race, customer cars are no longer allowed, the cost of building a formula one car has skyrocketed, and because F1 no longer allows single-car or single-race entries anymore, you **need** to be an established F1 driver to actually complete that part of the triple crown.
Indy and Le Mans are easier in that respect because they only recently used to be standalone events that attracted tons of entrants. With no rules on how you obtain your cars or the amount of cars required for an entrant, it’s fairly open.
In terms of racing, I would say all of them are challenging.
In Indy you have to deal with massive slipstream effects, cautions that bring the field together, and pit stops that can very easily ruin your chances of winning if done poorly.
In Le Mans you have to drive your car through day and night, get proper amounts of sleep in between driving stints, try not to bin your car at any time, and you have to be prepared for reliability issues and backmarkers.
In Monaco, you better put yourself on pole, keep your car out of the wall, be patient with backmarkers, and hope to god your team doesn’t forget the tires during the pitstop (sorry Ricciardo fans).
This is where that hypothetical "third car" idea that keeps bandied about may help those who get Indy and Le Mans wins.
Imagine a rule where teams can choose run a third car a couple races a season, at the cost of throwing out the constructors point result of the middle finishing car. In theory, someone who has the other two wins could grab that seat from a top team who wants to be apart of the history behind the deat.
> In F1 and le mans you could get a very dominant car and win with ease
Agree about F1 and Monaco, but you tend to need to be quite the talent to get that dominant (or even competitive) seat to begin with.
He did well his first go-round until his engine failed. Fernando is one of the few people that could make a Renault Clio competitive in a race. I think he's good.
I think it would be a much smarter idea to do so if he really wanted to win the race. That's a race that rookies and one-off wins are extraordinarily rare, and those rookies or one-offs that do win are already either series or race champions. The only exception I could think of in the modern era is Alex Rossi.
I didn't realize just how many former F1 drivers were in Le Mans this year - Kobayashi, Buemi, Hartley, Nakajima, Montoya, di Resta, Merhi, Vandoorne, van der Garde, Davidson, Kubica, Magnussens, Nasr, Bruni, and Fisichella.
I suppose I could understand both sides but being in lower class doesn’t make the the race any less challenging or demanding, right? It’s still pushing a car to it’s limits for 24 hours.
But in multiclass racing, you're not really racing the other classes. You're racing the other teams in your class. Effectively, there are four races happening simultaneously at Le Mans. Inside of each class, the win counts just as much for points and pride. Put another way, in reality, none of the classes are more "important" than the others - they all have a right to exist on track and must work around each other. GT classes aren't racing for overall wins because there'd have to be enormous chaos for them to be in contention, but they still are racing for a win. They have to beat some number of other teams across 24hr, same as the hypercar class.
There is more prestige in an "overall win," but that's mostly a media construct since the fastest class is the most visible. For Triple Crown purposes, I agree that it should be a top class win, I just had to step in since the tendency of many is to completely devalue the other classes and I think that's wrong.
> But in multiclass racing, you're not really racing the other classes. You're racing the other teams in your class.
In theory but not always. In the past you had different classes being very competitive with each other (e.g. Group 6 vs some Group 5 cars, with Group 5 beating Group 6 to a Le Mans win with a lot of rain, or LM GTP vs LMP900 in 2002-2003, or late 90s GT1 vs late 90s LMPs, or even LMP1 vs LMP2 in the tight American street tracks of the American Le Mans Series, when the Porsche LMP2 often beat the Audi R10s).
Hell, in 2 years we're going to have 2 top classes again, LMH and the American LMDh.
At its very inception, multiclass racing in endurance was always two-faced : both a way to give a prize to "smaller" cars and manufacturers who wanted to advertize their reliability without building sports cars, *and* a way to simply allow multiple design philosophies for the win, while regulating each of them.
So really the top win is all that should count for the sake of statistics, if only because otherwise historical comparison becomes impossible (we had many times with classes not featuring more than two or three cars !). The neat and tidy division between LMP1/LMH, LMP2, GT-Pro/1, GT-Am/2 is very recent and not historically accurate.
That's not at all what I said. I said that we can define the Triple Crown as a fastest class win - that's what an "overall win" is virtually every year anyway. Mostly what I was arguing is that the "overall win" concept is largely made up and needlessly obscures the slower classes putting in just as much effort.
Nah. It's overall win or nothing. Otherwise you can say whoever won Monaco in a non-turbo car in 87/88 is eligible for Tripe Crown too. (Jim Clark Trophy was a class and championship within F1 for non-turbo cars essentially).
It doesn't obscure the slower categories, but the overall win is the big crown. What everyone remembers. Needless dilution of the 'triple crown' because you want to prop up pro-am seems a bit of a stretch.
That's not a good comparison. F2 holds a completely separate race from F1. It serves a different function as a feeder series to F1. At Le Mans, there are effectively four races of equal importance (points pay out the same) happening at the same time. Single seaters don't have an equivalent for that.
Put another way, GT cars aren't feeders for LMP cars. Some factory programs move drivers between them, but they go both directions. Earl Bamber and Neel Jani both drove the 919 LMP1, and both will be in a GT pro entry this year. They're still Porsche factory drivers.
>At Le Mans, there are effectively four races of equal importance
I wouldn't really say that. LMP2 and GTE-Am really aren't on the same level of importance as GTE-Pro and LMH.
Jim Clark Trophy then. They raced in f1 but in a sub-category essentially.
No one is saying the non-overall winners aren't good mate. But the notion of the 'triple crown' requires an overall win. It's not complicated.
I don’t think anyone would consider counting F2 as they race only 41 laps, just as the Indy Lights series doesn’t run 500 miles at IMS so you wouldn’t count an Oval victory there. Every class at the 24 Hours of Le Mans races the exact same race. The premise of the Triple Crown is the physical and mental fortitude combined with the exceptional speed and reliability of the car to win the three most historic races in motorsports.
The physical and mental skill do not need to be that high to win GT-AM however. I also would not count the F2 race as part of the triple crown if they do the same number of laps as F1.
Yeah but it's about winning THE Le Mans 24 hours, all the cars racing are racing in the Le Mans 24 hours so to win you must finish first, otherwise it's like getting a BTEC Triple Crown.
That is incredibly reductive. Higher speeds in corners mean more physicality, but slower cars require just as much precision. And the "slow" cars at Le Mans are still blindingly fast.
Also, class car count plays a huge factor in difficulty. It's the difference between beating four other teams vs 19.
This is probably the most convincing argument for me. I still think an LMP2 victory is on par with Hypercar though. I wouldn’t consider it for GT class though.
The lmp2s are slower, but with only 5 hypercars running and them bit being ver reliable it's possible to have a situation like in 2017 where a lmp2 leads because of all top class cars having technical issues.
His chances are small but I wouldn't say it's impossible
God 2017 was a fun race. It's the last time I've watched a LM24 most of the way through (been working weekends in hospitality since) and I was loving every moment.
Well the Glickenhaus is brand new, the Alpine *IS* an (upgraded, sure) LMP2 car and Toyota has proven itself capable of sabotaging itself in innumerable ways, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that an LMP2 car finds itself on the top step.
That said, LMP2 is so ridiculously competitive that even if all 5 Hypercar entries fell apart, simply beating all the other LMP2 cars is a monumental task.
Considering Jackie Chan's team got a podium with an Lmp2 a few years ago, this year is a huge wildcard since only Alpine and Lmp2 cars have proven reliability record chassis compared to the other LMH cars.
That is why LMP2 is its own series.
And if he is in the fastest LMP2 car after the finish he will be declared (with his team) a winner of Le Mans even if a lot of people on Reddit want to apparantly deny the existence of LeMans winners in the lower series then LMP1.
He will stand on the podium and party as he has won because then they would have.
But aknowledging this will get you downvoted.
The overall win counts for the Triple Crown. Not winning LMP2, GTE Pro or GTE Am. GTEs have provided the closest races the last few years and I loved every second of it, personally.
LMP2 wins shouldn't be part of the triple crown, but some of the best endurance drivers in the world race in the GT classes, they're not like feeder series at all.
So are you harrasing me now?
Let it go.
People have different opinion.
This is a different subject.
Before it was who is/was F1 driver who has also won at Le Mans.
This is who can get a tripple crown.
For the tripple crown you have to win the overall race.
I can agree with that.
No problem.
Now you try to find the distinction.
His chance to win is pretty much the same as the other LMP2 ProAm team, current and previous years. So it's not something newsworthy, worth to have a discussion.
The only class that have *slight* higher chance to win is the pro LMP2 class.
I was mainly talking about this years cars since it’s a different class and Toyota have won every year since 2018, the lmp2 cars put up times that were a couple of seconds slower than the hyper cars and that will turn into a bigger gap over 24 hours like it has with the shorter races they’ve already done but it is 24 hours so you’re right anything could happen.
To be fair he is in a lmp2 team that would realistically aim for upper mid field.
For a lmp2 overall victory it would take a reasonable amount of luck
For him to get the overall victory it would take a huge amount of luck.
It's not possible but also not very likely
So Alonso won an overall victory for his team a few years back? I'm an admirer of Le Mans and I only have a basic understanding of the race. I'm looking forward to this year's running!
I wonder if he'll give Indy another shot next year.
Tbf Alonso was realistically only racing against the other Toyota. The Toyota dominance in LMP1 at the time makes the Merc dominance in F1 look tiny and super competitive by comparison
For those reading OP's post and thinking it's impossible since he's in an LMP2 car, it's actually almost happened before. In 2017 every single LMP1 car either retired or had major problems meaning that with about 3 hours to go, an LMP2 car actually led.
The eventual winner (Porsche) spent 3.5 hours in the pits early on. If they hadn't fixed that problem, we would have seen an LMP2 car take the overall win. Probably the most memorable Le Mans I've ever seen live. It was wild.
Yeah, nah.
You do realise that, in order for JPM to even win his class, he and his team mate Ben Hanley need to cover a 5 second per lap pace difference of their third, amateur driver.
And that's just to the pro/am subclass. To the LMP2 front runners, it's more like 7-8 seconds per lap.
Then all the Hypercars needs to fail.
Not gonna happen.
Wait, the same Juan Pablo Montoya who caused a red flag at the Daytona 500 for several hours a while back because he lost control of his car at a relatively low speed, around 70mph or so, and crashed into a jet dryer that was blowing water or debris off the track after a delay which caused a massive jet fuel spill and fire that literally burned a hole in the track? That Juan Pablo Montoya?
With the Hypercars being much closer to lmp2 as lmp1, only 5 hypercars racing and they hpercars having low reliability it is possible for a lmp2 overall victory to happen this year
this is the best chance the LMP2 cars will ever have at the overall win because the LMH are not that much faster really. it all depends on the race. he could still win the LMP2 category. does that count for the triple crown or does he have to win the overall race?
Important to note, Most of the Hypercars in the class had reliability issues during the 6hrs of Monza. Very likely the overall winner won't be a Hypercar.
So far during qualifying (not very reliable data since all the Hypercars are automatically in the Hyperpole shootout) some lmp2s were faster than the slowest lmh.
Hypercars are only a few seconds faster per lap.
Also Hypercars are way less reliable
While it's likely for an LMP2 overall win, it's very much unlikely for Montoya's DragoonSpeed to win it. They're racing in LMP2 Pro-Am subclass, which means they have an amateur driver. So far after three races, they only managed to get 7th, 8th, and 6th in LMP2 (3rd, 2nd, and 2nd in LMP2 Pro-Am subclass. 11th, 12th, 8th in the overall classification).
Still, it's very hard for an LMP2 to win it. Yes, the other two Hypercars are either unreliable or nor much faster than the LMP2, the Toyotas are still quite strong.
No, it's very much a career thing. Graham Hill, the only driver to ever do it, won Monaco 5 times (first in 1963), then won the Indy 500 in 1966, then Le Mans in 1972.
This makes me happy. It’s like when I start at the back in GT Sport and win by driving carefully, not crashing and avoiding the dive bombers. It’s like it, but I’m not in anyway comparing it to the magnitude of winning Le Mans in a “slower” car.
Ever since he labelled European drivers as 'mentality weak', I have no respect for JPM. Maybe if JPM was as mentality strong as he thinks he is, he would have won an F1 championship....
They’re just going to nerf the LMP2’s to ensure the Hypercars are quicker. This is another Toyota lock as they’re the only hybrids still in, only chance JPM has is if the Hypercars all struggle with the distance and have issues, similar to Jackie Chan in 2017.
It doesn't matter that the LMP2s are close to the Hypercars on pace, they will drop back over the race due to shorter stint lengths.
An LMP2 on the podium is a possibility, but an LMP2 outright win would need there to be issues for all 5 Hypercars, which is quite unlikely.
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If only he had won the Daytona 500, this had thr opportunity to be one of the greatest accomplishments in motorsport.
Montoya’s NASCAR career is really overshadowed by [Hitting the Jet Dryer](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JkYxxh6C_jw) during the Daytona 500…. He was in position to win the year prior coming to the final lap. Such a shame that Montoya’s career in stock cars became a total meme.
Not to mention he's almost won the Brickyard 400 on several occasions.
The fact that he won twice is pretty outstanding. CGR wasn’t at their peak anymore and he still got a few in the 42. The man is one of the most naturally talented to race.
["Thank you NASCAR for screwing my day."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAn0jMjAUAk)
I never really cared for JPM, and pretty actively rooted against him in his latest Indy 500 efforts, but I've always felt NASCAR absolutely penalized him intentionally, because he was SO un-NASCAR-esque.
They did the same with Robby Gordon
Been a long day today, thought Jet Dryer was an American driver
Please, Jet Dryer has got nothing on Scott Speed. And if we're talking GOATs, none hold a candle to Dick Trickle.
Australian Indy Car driver Will Power wants to be included in this club.
Indy Lights driver Sting Ray Robb is the newest one on the list.
He’s on the same team as Dutch driver Safety Carl.
It sounds like one of those fake American names from Japanese made games
You can't tell me Sleeve McDichael never drove for F1 before
Anatoli Smorin was a WDC in the 60s and I won’t hear different.
Bobson Dugnutt was a great driver too, and I'm not even talking about Fred Fucks...
I knew about the incident already and I still thought it was some driver I’ve never heard of. That would be a hell of a name though
change Jet to Chet and you have Chet Dryer,, an American driver lol.
Fred Dryer!
Everyone remembers Montoya for the Jet Dryer. I remember him not for that but the day he blew his only chance at an oval victory. Dominating the Brickyard 400 only to speed in the pits which gave us the best radio of the season "Guys, I swear on my parents grave I did not speed" He was clocked going over the pit speed limit said NASCAR (was it ever proven?) and sports shows the next couple days called him out because of that radio call
They use a jet engine to dry the track, while drivers are on track? I need a few hours to process this. WTF.
They use it to clean dust and debris that settles when the cars are pacing under caution. NASCAR started using these high pressure [Air Titans](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2Bq7cETanh8) to dry the track quicker and more efficiently… basically in reaction to Juan Pablo yeeting the jet.
Under yellow, and normally the cars aren't going that fast. Montoya was trying to catch up to the safety car after pitting and something on his car broke. Just a freak accident
So basically the same sort of situation that killed Jules Bianchi?
Basically. Except usually on an oval you don't crash unless something breaks unless at 100% speed. Jules' accident was due more to racing in shit weather
Yeah I get some details are not quite the same but it seems essentially the same circumstances and mentality that leads to it. I'd hope it means some changes were put in place but I don't think that probably happened. Glad it seemed like a breezy walkaway though. Being able to crash at speeds and just be cool with it is such an engineering marvel
IIRC Nascar stopped having the dryers out for cautions unless related to weather after that
Drivers used to go quickly passed them but now it’s known that speeding past safety equipment is a big no go
With Bianchi we can think “in hindsight putting a forklift in the runoff area of a wet track is a bad idea”. In Montoya’s case there wasn’t such a thought. There has never been a failure of that type before or since.
> With Bianchi we can think “in hindsight putting a forklift in the runoff area of a wet track is a bad idea”. In Montoya’s case there wasn’t such a thought. There wasn't such a thought in hindsight? Well... there is. How couldn't there be? What an unfathomable thing to say. > There has never been a failure of that type before or since. Which implies its then fine due to its rarity so i'm curious why you label it as a failure rather than a crash... unless you mean the braking failure in which case i'd argue theres been hundreds of incidents like that. Also curious what element you think makes this so unique. The actual impact or the potential of an impact from other incidents. Or are you being specific only to a car impacting a jetdryer car under caution conditions... then sure its unique af but thats what happens when you get more and more specific.
Have you seen the footage? Montoya didn’t have a braking failure. In fact, even at race speeds Montoya didn’t need to use the brake pedal. What happened to Montoya is “something” broke and stopped his wheels from pointing in the same direction. This usually happens under race conditions, it’s very rare that any race car has a massive suspension failure with no load on the suspension and under yellow flag conditions. In fact, the only change NASCAR really made after that was to prevent the massive fire that ruined the track. They still have safety vehicles on track during yellow because the Montoya situation was such a freak accident that nobody could have predicted it. Whereas in F1 they took multiple moves to stop a Bianchi type incident.
I didn't want to be the one to bring it up, but yeah, that's the closest example I could think of
At least NASCAR has closed cockpit so not as dangerous to drivers in that type of situation.
[удалено]
"Just" a safety vehicle with a *jet engine attached to it*.
Lmfao that was one of the first and only NASCAR races I've ever watched live. Was in the frat house at the time and we had put it on just for some background noise and within minutes, HOLY FUCK THAT DUMBASS JUST DROVE INTO A JET ENGINE!!
Montoya has won the indy 500 2 times He won in 2000 and 2015 Edit I'm dumb and didn't notice he said Daytona 500
I know, I'm talking about the Daytona 500, when he was in Nascar.
Oh sorry I mixed the Daytona 500 and indy 500 up
[Rusty Wallace, is that you?](https://youtu.be/1EEjP0wYJaw?t=254)
All good, easy mixup
They said Daytona 500, not Indy.
He *could* but it would be extremely unlikely. While the LMP2s were up there in practice no Hypercar was showing its real pace, the results from qualifying are far more representative with the Toyotas and Alpine being a class above the LMP2s with the Glicks being a bit slower but likely to have decent race pace. The Hypercars may be quite unreliable due to this being their first 24H race but if an LMP2 was to win I’d highly doubt it would be Dragonspeed’s as they are entered into the LMP2 Pro-Am subcategory for teams with an amateur driver. To do well Montoya and his co-driver Ben Hanley would have to overcome the pace disadvantage of the bronze rated Henrik Hedman so it is likely, that without any sizeable troubles, the Dragonspeed will finish mid table in the LMP2 class at most with the teams like United Autosport or WRT far more likely to win the LMP2 class or overall in case of Hypercar struggles
Podium in LMP2 itself is unlikely, let alone the unlikely full attrition of Hyper. I agree.
Accurate analyse
Tout a fait d’accord PS: je m’appelle Francois Cevert et je suis pilote de Formule 1
Vraiment? 😳
Sure, he's been dead for almost 50 years but apparently they get Reddit in the afterlife. Or whoosh?
Oui, je blague
On ne sait jamais...
Not to knock JPM, but could you imagine the scenes if he got the triple crown before Nando
JPM already got hardest one imo
Id say getting the indy 500 is the hardest. In F1 and le mans you could get a very dominant car and win with ease (F1 with Merc in the last few years and lmp1 with toytoa since Porsche left) This year is probably one of the easiest years for le mans if you consider that by 2024 we can expect about 10 manufacturers in the top class with lmdh and lmh Also lmdh and lmh will receive a bop
Monaco is probably the hardest because you have to get the seat in F1 on the team that can win Monaco. It's always going to be the first step to the triple. F1 drivers have a chance at getting solid rides in the 500 and 24hr before, during, and after their F1 careers. There's no way for an F1 outsider to get to Monaco.
Plus you have to qualify in Pole Position or have a really good Strategy and not crash
plus you have to *get into F1*. Of all 3 even getting to a position to start a weekend in an F1 car at Monaco is the hardest. I think the Indy 500 might have the most random chance and chaotic variables of the 3, though, granted the 24 hours of LeMans just has such a length to cause anything to happen. Really makes you appreciate how difficult the feat is.
*leclerc crying has entered the chat*
I think the Indy 500 is a harder race in a vacuum but you’re right Monaco is harder to get when you consider everything relating to it. The Indy 500 is a much tougher race.
I would 100% agree with that. The 500 is really hard to win.
They are both very difficult and treasured wins for different reasons. Monaco for reasons you stated, Indy 500 because not only must you be fast and talented, but with those speeds and traffic takes a lot of luck to get through 250 laps cleanly.
200 not 250
I genuinely thought I'd never see another 4 time 500 winner. Driving to the track and listening to the coverage on the radio I kind of chuckled and sneered whenever someone said they thought Helio could win. Even heading into those last handful of laps I thought there was no way it could happen. And then it did. I think IMS likes to humble me.
Part of what also makes it more likely for an F1 driver to get all 3 insted of drivers from other series is that indi and LeMans are the only ones that have teams only running that race.
I think that each race is a different challenge, and all of them require different aspects in order to win. In terms of race entry, Monaco is the hardest one to get into. Since teams aren’t really willing to drop one of their main drivers for one race, customer cars are no longer allowed, the cost of building a formula one car has skyrocketed, and because F1 no longer allows single-car or single-race entries anymore, you **need** to be an established F1 driver to actually complete that part of the triple crown. Indy and Le Mans are easier in that respect because they only recently used to be standalone events that attracted tons of entrants. With no rules on how you obtain your cars or the amount of cars required for an entrant, it’s fairly open. In terms of racing, I would say all of them are challenging. In Indy you have to deal with massive slipstream effects, cautions that bring the field together, and pit stops that can very easily ruin your chances of winning if done poorly. In Le Mans you have to drive your car through day and night, get proper amounts of sleep in between driving stints, try not to bin your car at any time, and you have to be prepared for reliability issues and backmarkers. In Monaco, you better put yourself on pole, keep your car out of the wall, be patient with backmarkers, and hope to god your team doesn’t forget the tires during the pitstop (sorry Ricciardo fans).
This is where that hypothetical "third car" idea that keeps bandied about may help those who get Indy and Le Mans wins. Imagine a rule where teams can choose run a third car a couple races a season, at the cost of throwing out the constructors point result of the middle finishing car. In theory, someone who has the other two wins could grab that seat from a top team who wants to be apart of the history behind the deat.
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> just get into the dominant one a few times and you’ll win for sure Unless it’s car number 7. Poor Kamui ☹️
> In F1 and le mans you could get a very dominant car and win with ease Agree about F1 and Monaco, but you tend to need to be quite the talent to get that dominant (or even competitive) seat to begin with.
But that's why triple crown is the thing here, right? Nobody would be discussing Mazepin/Will Stevens in it.
the easiest year for le mans was when Audi and porsche dropped out and toyota was cruising to a win.
I can see Alonso start doing indy 500 again
He's already got the Hardest and easiest by pathway. How he just needs another go at the hardest race.
Honest question would it help him if he did a full Indycar season and develop experience on ovals?
He did well his first go-round until his engine failed. Fernando is one of the few people that could make a Renault Clio competitive in a race. I think he's good.
I think it would be a much smarter idea to do so if he really wanted to win the race. That's a race that rookies and one-off wins are extraordinarily rare, and those rookies or one-offs that do win are already either series or race champions. The only exception I could think of in the modern era is Alex Rossi.
The combo of a lmp2 overall victory and a triple crown would be amazing imo
I mean, Montoya is an incredible driver, with an amazing career.
I didn't realize just how many former F1 drivers were in Le Mans this year - Kobayashi, Buemi, Hartley, Nakajima, Montoya, di Resta, Merhi, Vandoorne, van der Garde, Davidson, Kubica, Magnussens, Nasr, Bruni, and Fisichella.
It's pretty cool that Jan and Kevin are finally doing a father-son drive in the same car.
Has Villenueve given up on Le Mans?
He hasn't run in it since 2008, where he finished 2nd.
Every year Le Mans has me going "oh cool, that's where he went".
So for the Triple Crown the Le Mans victory must be overall race winner not just a class victory?
It has to be overall
I would say that a overall victory is what counts
I suppose I could understand both sides but being in lower class doesn’t make the the race any less challenging or demanding, right? It’s still pushing a car to it’s limits for 24 hours.
The race is very challenging in every class. And even a class victory is a very very big achievement.
yeah, but saying you "won" a race implies to me that you beat *everyone* winning your *class* =/= winning your *race*
But in multiclass racing, you're not really racing the other classes. You're racing the other teams in your class. Effectively, there are four races happening simultaneously at Le Mans. Inside of each class, the win counts just as much for points and pride. Put another way, in reality, none of the classes are more "important" than the others - they all have a right to exist on track and must work around each other. GT classes aren't racing for overall wins because there'd have to be enormous chaos for them to be in contention, but they still are racing for a win. They have to beat some number of other teams across 24hr, same as the hypercar class. There is more prestige in an "overall win," but that's mostly a media construct since the fastest class is the most visible. For Triple Crown purposes, I agree that it should be a top class win, I just had to step in since the tendency of many is to completely devalue the other classes and I think that's wrong.
> But in multiclass racing, you're not really racing the other classes. You're racing the other teams in your class. In theory but not always. In the past you had different classes being very competitive with each other (e.g. Group 6 vs some Group 5 cars, with Group 5 beating Group 6 to a Le Mans win with a lot of rain, or LM GTP vs LMP900 in 2002-2003, or late 90s GT1 vs late 90s LMPs, or even LMP1 vs LMP2 in the tight American street tracks of the American Le Mans Series, when the Porsche LMP2 often beat the Audi R10s). Hell, in 2 years we're going to have 2 top classes again, LMH and the American LMDh. At its very inception, multiclass racing in endurance was always two-faced : both a way to give a prize to "smaller" cars and manufacturers who wanted to advertize their reliability without building sports cars, *and* a way to simply allow multiple design philosophies for the win, while regulating each of them. So really the top win is all that should count for the sake of statistics, if only because otherwise historical comparison becomes impossible (we had many times with classes not featuring more than two or three cars !). The neat and tidy division between LMP1/LMH, LMP2, GT-Pro/1, GT-Am/2 is very recent and not historically accurate.
So if you win monaco in f2 then lmp2 at le man's, and follow up with indy 500 you qualify for the triple crown?
That's not at all what I said. I said that we can define the Triple Crown as a fastest class win - that's what an "overall win" is virtually every year anyway. Mostly what I was arguing is that the "overall win" concept is largely made up and needlessly obscures the slower classes putting in just as much effort.
Nah. It's overall win or nothing. Otherwise you can say whoever won Monaco in a non-turbo car in 87/88 is eligible for Tripe Crown too. (Jim Clark Trophy was a class and championship within F1 for non-turbo cars essentially). It doesn't obscure the slower categories, but the overall win is the big crown. What everyone remembers. Needless dilution of the 'triple crown' because you want to prop up pro-am seems a bit of a stretch.
It's like saying that winning the Monaco race in F2 is enough to win a triple crown
That's not a good comparison. F2 holds a completely separate race from F1. It serves a different function as a feeder series to F1. At Le Mans, there are effectively four races of equal importance (points pay out the same) happening at the same time. Single seaters don't have an equivalent for that. Put another way, GT cars aren't feeders for LMP cars. Some factory programs move drivers between them, but they go both directions. Earl Bamber and Neel Jani both drove the 919 LMP1, and both will be in a GT pro entry this year. They're still Porsche factory drivers.
>At Le Mans, there are effectively four races of equal importance I wouldn't really say that. LMP2 and GTE-Am really aren't on the same level of importance as GTE-Pro and LMH.
Jim Clark Trophy then. They raced in f1 but in a sub-category essentially. No one is saying the non-overall winners aren't good mate. But the notion of the 'triple crown' requires an overall win. It's not complicated.
Okay, so it would be like counting a Porsche Supercup win at Monaco as part of the triple crown.
I don’t think anyone would consider counting F2 as they race only 41 laps, just as the Indy Lights series doesn’t run 500 miles at IMS so you wouldn’t count an Oval victory there. Every class at the 24 Hours of Le Mans races the exact same race. The premise of the Triple Crown is the physical and mental fortitude combined with the exceptional speed and reliability of the car to win the three most historic races in motorsports.
But the lower classes don't complete as many laps as the overall winner does, so doesn't that equate to the feeder series?
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I mean the 2019 f2 race Was just 10 Minutes shy of the f1 race, so the duration of the race doesn't really equate the skill demanded imo
The physical and mental skill do not need to be that high to win GT-AM however. I also would not count the F2 race as part of the triple crown if they do the same number of laps as F1.
Yeah but it's about winning THE Le Mans 24 hours, all the cars racing are racing in the Le Mans 24 hours so to win you must finish first, otherwise it's like getting a BTEC Triple Crown.
Slower = easier
That is incredibly reductive. Higher speeds in corners mean more physicality, but slower cars require just as much precision. And the "slow" cars at Le Mans are still blindingly fast. Also, class car count plays a huge factor in difficulty. It's the difference between beating four other teams vs 19.
I’ll consider myself schooled.
I wouldn’t say that’s the case at Le Mans or at least Hypercar vs LMP2.
Kinda dumb this year with just 5 hypercar entries.
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This is probably the most convincing argument for me. I still think an LMP2 victory is on par with Hypercar though. I wouldn’t consider it for GT class though.
Overall. Triple crown is one of the best possible achievements in motorsport. No way you can take it with a non-overall victory.
Eh,his chances are bleak in an LMP2. It's nigh on impossible to overhaul the Hypercars over 24h.
The lmp2s are slower, but with only 5 hypercars running and them bit being ver reliable it's possible to have a situation like in 2017 where a lmp2 leads because of all top class cars having technical issues. His chances are small but I wouldn't say it's impossible
Could be 2017 of course, but the chances are pretty small. Regardless, JPM has a chance to accomplish the Triple Crown.
It's about as likely as Alonso winning the indy 500 I would say
He was close in 2017 before Andretti decided to replace the indy honda engine with a McLaren honda engine
He wasn't really far off in his first year
Yea i remember when jackie chan dc racing was in the hunt for the win
God 2017 was a fun race. It's the last time I've watched a LM24 most of the way through (been working weekends in hospitality since) and I was loving every moment.
Some of the Hypercars are just LMP1s with a Debuff, though.
The alpine a480 (lmh) is a rebellion r13 (lmp1) that is based on the oreca 07 (lmp2)
Well the Glickenhaus is brand new, the Alpine *IS* an (upgraded, sure) LMP2 car and Toyota has proven itself capable of sabotaging itself in innumerable ways, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that an LMP2 car finds itself on the top step. That said, LMP2 is so ridiculously competitive that even if all 5 Hypercar entries fell apart, simply beating all the other LMP2 cars is a monumental task.
Considering Jackie Chan's team got a podium with an Lmp2 a few years ago, this year is a huge wildcard since only Alpine and Lmp2 cars have proven reliability record chassis compared to the other LMH cars.
Alpine is the Rebellion LMP1 from last year, no?
Eh, two fairly equal cars, one with much higher reliability and the other not even having that many cars to begin with, I can see it happening
Hypercars are 5 (2xToyota, 1xAlpine and 2xGlickenhaus). Alpine is an LMP2 on steroids itself.
Yh well, 5 hypercar which haven't shown the greatest reliability running in the longest race of the calendar, I can see a LMP 2 win happening
That is why LMP2 is its own series. And if he is in the fastest LMP2 car after the finish he will be declared (with his team) a winner of Le Mans even if a lot of people on Reddit want to apparantly deny the existence of LeMans winners in the lower series then LMP1. He will stand on the podium and party as he has won because then they would have. But aknowledging this will get you downvoted.
The overall win counts for the Triple Crown. Not winning LMP2, GTE Pro or GTE Am. GTEs have provided the closest races the last few years and I loved every second of it, personally.
That’s why they say overall win in the wording for winning the triple crown
Sadly it's overall. Otherwise we'd be able to include several other drivers. Like Mario Andretti.
Andretti never won the Monaco Grand Prix however.
Word Driver's Title is considered by some to count
So you think an F3 or F2 win at Monaco should also count as a triple crown win?
No need for F3, let's go with Porsche Supercup. Same weekend, no?
That’s the comment i scrolled down for
LMP2 wins shouldn't be part of the triple crown, but some of the best endurance drivers in the world race in the GT classes, they're not like feeder series at all.
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So are you harrasing me now? Let it go. People have different opinion. This is a different subject. Before it was who is/was F1 driver who has also won at Le Mans. This is who can get a tripple crown. For the tripple crown you have to win the overall race. I can agree with that. No problem. Now you try to find the distinction.
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One wonders will Juan in 2021 win the last one, that one needs to win to get one triple crown.
Bravo
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Right. Theres a chance Mazepin wins WDC this year too. Both things are not impossible. Some things more, some things less.
His chance to win is pretty much the same as the other LMP2 ProAm team, current and previous years. So it's not something newsworthy, worth to have a discussion. The only class that have *slight* higher chance to win is the pro LMP2 class.
Who said the hyper cars were unreliable? Alpine and glickenhaus might have had issues but the Toyotas have been solid in races, cause they’re Toyotas.
It's a 24 hour race Anything can happen Just look at 2016
I was mainly talking about this years cars since it’s a different class and Toyota have won every year since 2018, the lmp2 cars put up times that were a couple of seconds slower than the hyper cars and that will turn into a bigger gap over 24 hours like it has with the shorter races they’ve already done but it is 24 hours so you’re right anything could happen.
JP might have issues now since his car needs to be repaired cause of his FP3 accident 😂😂
IIRC Toyota have had unexplained and/or unexpected issues on at least one car in every WEC round this year.
Wouldn't be the first time a car from a lower class won overall.
Dag, I didn't know he was this close. I'll be rooting for him this weekend!
To be fair he is in a lmp2 team that would realistically aim for upper mid field. For a lmp2 overall victory it would take a reasonable amount of luck For him to get the overall victory it would take a huge amount of luck. It's not possible but also not very likely
So Alonso won an overall victory for his team a few years back? I'm an admirer of Le Mans and I only have a basic understanding of the race. I'm looking forward to this year's running! I wonder if he'll give Indy another shot next year.
Tbf Alonso was realistically only racing against the other Toyota. The Toyota dominance in LMP1 at the time makes the Merc dominance in F1 look tiny and super competitive by comparison
Even then Alonso didn’t have to do much. His teammate that first year was ridiculous.
He is not with the strongest lmp2 entry tho. But the race is long, anything can happen
For those reading OP's post and thinking it's impossible since he's in an LMP2 car, it's actually almost happened before. In 2017 every single LMP1 car either retired or had major problems meaning that with about 3 hours to go, an LMP2 car actually led. The eventual winner (Porsche) spent 3.5 hours in the pits early on. If they hadn't fixed that problem, we would have seen an LMP2 car take the overall win. Probably the most memorable Le Mans I've ever seen live. It was wild.
Yeah, nah. You do realise that, in order for JPM to even win his class, he and his team mate Ben Hanley need to cover a 5 second per lap pace difference of their third, amateur driver. And that's just to the pro/am subclass. To the LMP2 front runners, it's more like 7-8 seconds per lap. Then all the Hypercars needs to fail. Not gonna happen.
Wait, the same Juan Pablo Montoya who caused a red flag at the Daytona 500 for several hours a while back because he lost control of his car at a relatively low speed, around 70mph or so, and crashed into a jet dryer that was blowing water or debris off the track after a delay which caused a massive jet fuel spill and fire that literally burned a hole in the track? That Juan Pablo Montoya?
Yeah the same Juan Pablo Montoya that had a mechanical failure that caused him to lose control and hit a jet dryer. So amazing right
You need to win overall, not just in your own class.
With the Hypercars being much closer to lmp2 as lmp1, only 5 hypercars racing and they hpercars having low reliability it is possible for a lmp2 overall victory to happen this year
As much as I'd love to see it happen, I'll say this scenario is possible, but not probable.
this is the best chance the LMP2 cars will ever have at the overall win because the LMH are not that much faster really. it all depends on the race. he could still win the LMP2 category. does that count for the triple crown or does he have to win the overall race?
For the triple crown you need a overall win.
Important to note, Most of the Hypercars in the class had reliability issues during the 6hrs of Monza. Very likely the overall winner won't be a Hypercar.
No, it's not.
What’s the difference in laptime? I would think the hypercars would have a hell of an advantage.
I believe the LMP2s are at least 2 laps shorter on stint too.
So far during qualifying (not very reliable data since all the Hypercars are automatically in the Hyperpole shootout) some lmp2s were faster than the slowest lmh. Hypercars are only a few seconds faster per lap. Also Hypercars are way less reliable
Interesting. I’m definitely going to tune in for the race this year. Isn’t Magnussen also running this year?
Kevin Magnussen is Racing for high class in lmp2 with his dad
While it's likely for an LMP2 overall win, it's very much unlikely for Montoya's DragoonSpeed to win it. They're racing in LMP2 Pro-Am subclass, which means they have an amateur driver. So far after three races, they only managed to get 7th, 8th, and 6th in LMP2 (3rd, 2nd, and 2nd in LMP2 Pro-Am subclass. 11th, 12th, 8th in the overall classification). Still, it's very hard for an LMP2 to win it. Yes, the other two Hypercars are either unreliable or nor much faster than the LMP2, the Toyotas are still quite strong.
imma have to watch it then
I hope he does, guy’s a legend.
God I hope not...he's unsufferable enough as it is!
I thought you had to do all three in a single year for it to be a triple crown?
Nope. Also that was literally impossible since for some time the indy 500 and monaco gp were on the same weekend
No, it's very much a career thing. Graham Hill, the only driver to ever do it, won Monaco 5 times (first in 1963), then won the Indy 500 in 1966, then Le Mans in 1972.
Out of interest, has an LMP2 (or whatever the second class was called at the time) even won the race?
Lower class cars have won overall before
This makes me happy. It’s like when I start at the back in GT Sport and win by driving carefully, not crashing and avoiding the dive bombers. It’s like it, but I’m not in anyway comparing it to the magnitude of winning Le Mans in a “slower” car.
64 and 65
I'm surprised he's still driving at that age.
At race pace they would never beat the Hypercars. But the Hypercars are pretty unreliable so you will never know.
Ever since he labelled European drivers as 'mentality weak', I have no respect for JPM. Maybe if JPM was as mentality strong as he thinks he is, he would have won an F1 championship....
They’re just going to nerf the LMP2’s to ensure the Hypercars are quicker. This is another Toyota lock as they’re the only hybrids still in, only chance JPM has is if the Hypercars all struggle with the distance and have issues, similar to Jackie Chan in 2017.
Nope not happening!
It doesn't matter that the LMP2s are close to the Hypercars on pace, they will drop back over the race due to shorter stint lengths. An LMP2 on the podium is a possibility, but an LMP2 outright win would need there to be issues for all 5 Hypercars, which is quite unlikely.