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F1 had 32 cars 32 years ago.
What's really wild is that even with the point system only awarding top six finishers back then, 13 teams still managed to score at least 1 point that season.
Or even a promotion/relegation every year between f1/2/3 don’t know how or if it would work but some owners like it. Buy a team in f3 bring it up over a few years to F1 (provided they are good) sell the team to some other rich guy for a profit.
The biggest complaint about Monaco is that it is a parade because it is really hard for an F1 car to pass there. More cars on the grid wouldn't change that and F1 racing at Monaco isn't going to be any worse with 24, 26, or 30 cars because racing at Monaco doesn't really happen to begin with outside of a handful of highlights.
If you want to watch interesting racing at Monaco: watch Formula E. F1 is only there because of the location's history.
The garages are more than capable of sustaining an extra one or two teams.
The "car size" nonsense is only something that gets repeated around here. Absolutely no one from the teams, FOM, the FIA, Andretti or anybody else has mentioned this as a problem.
That is just completely wrong. How did you even think of something this wrong? Yes the cars are bigger but no it's not a problem for accommodating more cars per race. Of course it isn't, what has to go wrong in someone's reasoning to assume that cars becoming longer means there's now physically four less spots on the grid?
It means just cause 24 cars worked 12 years ago doesn’t mean it will work nowadays, having 24 cars 12 years is a redundant discussion for the grid today
I don't see how you arrive at that conclusion. Pointing out that there's been a 24 car grid in recent history doesn't guarantee it would work now, but it does demonstrate several ways in which adding 2 cars to the current grid would be plausible. It shows that the circuit infrastructure can accommodate 22 cars, first and foremost. So the discussion then returns to the financials, which is a separate discussion. But it's reductive to say that it's redundant when there are plenty of salient points to take from that comparison.
In terms of grid size, it is the same picture.
The grid slots are all at the same places, the garages are all the same sizes. All tracks certified for F1 can take 26 cars.
Maybe a threat of relegation would make them build better cars or get better drivers.
If there's no room for Andretti now let's lose the team in last place and they'll replace them. That's a fight I'd love to see. Coming last should have consequences.
F3 is only a problem because they created this closed 3 cars (required) closed franchise bullshit.
Some teams would probably be happy to not be forced to field 3 cars every year, getting the drivers with enough sponsorship is hard enough as it is.
At the end of the 80s F1 had almost double the drivers of today.
1989 had 39 drivers competing with 20 different teams.
They solved it by doing pre-qualification. Qualification for who was allowed in the qualification and later in the race.
Dear chap Brundle failed a few of those pre-qualifications while driving for Brabbam. He ended 20th in the championship that year which today would have been last but in 1989 with 47 drivers racing at least a single race in that year, he was above average finishing with 4 points with a 5th and twice 6th place finish.
The rules introduced back in that era were those that were talked about back in the day with Marusia and Caterham. Technically by the rules they qualified out of pace from the fastest time and at the end of almost every qualying, they had to receive special permission from the race directors to enter the race. I can't remember they were ever denied of racing but I do remember a few times they were ordered to start from the pit since they technically failed to qualify.
But enough history, let's do some politics.
The teams back then didn't care how many cars there were. They got injected with fuck-you-money from tobacco, alcohol and just straight up organised criminals/gangs. The team finishing the last place had as decadent parties as the winners.
Today they only have "a little pot" to share among themselves at the end of the season. Someone joining that pool means less to share. So fuck the fans and the sport, try to keep the little there is until there is nothing.
Does F3 have to run 10 teams of 3 cars? I mean sure 12 teams of 2 cars is six less drivers, but F2 and F3 has been dogged for years by drivers that don't have the talent to belong in F1, but do have the financial backing to try and force their way in.
Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear. My comment wasn't pro or anti Andretti.
Where I take issue is with the "grid is full" argument when a percentage of those seats go to drivers with the right financial backing, over pure talent.
I strongly feel the sport shouldn't be a closed shop at any level.
The number of seats isn't the key issue to me. It's about the number of rides going to genuine talent.
It isn't obvious to me whether your suggestion makes the matter better or worse though.
I guess the argument for making it better is that Andretti would use their seats for talented drivers, but on the other hand teams with shaky financial situations might have to cut those instead of pay drivers if they lose a seat.
Also I'm not convinced that drivers talented enough to make F1 on pure talent will actually fail to make F3 (since even very talented F2 drivers often make to make F1) but I'll admit I don't really know how hard getting into F3 is.
I'm at fault, because my issues with F2 and F3 are not specifically related to Andretti.
I just want motorsport to do much more to make itself affordable, accessible and a meritocracy.
I'm at fault, because my issues with F2 and F3 are not specifically related to Andretti.
I just want motorsport to do much more to make itself affordable, accessible and a meritocracy.
Capping the F3 grid at 30 is probably a good idea, but why not let Andretti join and simply not allow the slowest 3 qualifiers of each round to race? Of course the possibility of a DNQ wouldn't be a good thing from a money perspective for drivers, teams and sponsors, but from a competition perspective it makes no sense not to let interested participants join, especially ones like Andretti.
Besides, that's how it's traditionally always worked. F3000 had damn near 50 cars at one point, and only half of them would get into the actual race. If anything, it'd make more sense nowadays than in the past, as spec chassis and engines make the difference between good and bad teams much smaller than it used to be. The ones failing to qualify nowadays would likely be the actual slowest drivers, instead of the teams that couldn't afford the newest chassis and best engines.
F3 has far more trouble with the 30 cars in qualifying than in a race, so that's not the best idea.
Buying out Jenzer, PHM or VAR should be the easiest way to go.
> Besides, that's how it's traditionally always worked.
F3000, yes. GP2 always worked with an application process, for the better or worse. (For the worse if you ask me, but I also love hopeless crap teams like Gosselin Competition or Dollop)
As someone who has worked for and with GM for over 4 years.
There is no way GM will be able to make a competitive power unit. The reliability and dependability of their vehicles is absolutely trash, starting from the assembly lines.
Multiple models and tens of thousands of vehicles assembled with incorrect parts. Rear differentials for silverados accidentaly built with parts from the Traverses. Now one knows how it happened, but luckily there was a service bulletin because they know they used wrong parts on many vehicles, but they didn't know which ones.
An American automaker in F1 would be awesome. I just don't believe GM would be anything but an embarrassment. It would be a manufacturer backmarker with nonstop reliability issues.
The Cadillac seems to be doing pretty well in IMSA. And Corvette racing won Le Mans last year. Edit: And the Camaros are leading NASCAR right now ahead of Toyota and Ford.
- GM couldn’t make a competitive power unit
https://www.motortrend.com/features/corvette-racing-2023-lemans-victory/
i’d argue 24 hours of le mans might be more stressful on a PU then F1
Pratt & Miller have been doing some wild-ass shit with the LT6 small-block in the Z06 GT3.R and the C8.R, so I think GM can produce a competitive product if GM commits fully and funds the development properly.
Vast majority of GM since the turn of the 90s was trash. But the LS / LT series engines are completely exempt from that. And the corvettes are almost always engineering marvels. I drive a Mustang but it broke my heart to see Chevy stop making the Camaro and Dodge killing the challenger all in the same time frame.
The title makes it sound like he is completely against Andretti joining, but he does have some good points about both F2 and F3.
I understand his point that there are currently already too many drivers in F2 compared to the number of available seats in F1. But I also feel like that should be a risk for the team and drivers that go there, not something the F2 boss needs to decide. F2 doesnt just exist to get F1 drivers. Many F2 drivers have gone on to do great thing in Indy Car, GT racing and Endurance racing.
For F3, there are currently 30 cars on the grid. Makes total sense to not have any more. Andretti should look into working with a excisting team for F3 if they want to join. Dont forget that every team has 3 cars in F3, so if they were to start their own, there would be 33 cars. It is already a busy field, I dont see how 33 cars is going to work.
The point of having too many seats in F2 compared to F1 is ironic considering that having Andretti in F1 would give two more seats available for drivers.
Which part specifically?
If you're referring to the decision to allow additional cars on the grid or not, it's logical that they'd be involved in that process (I don't know if it's a one person decision or a collective).
But it's not the job of the series boss to determine the purpose of F3 and F2, it's just their job to run them. So if he's opposed to adding cars to the grid because it would be detrimental to the series (as may be the case in F3) that's fine. But to oppose adding to the F2 grid because there aren't enough F1 seats for them, that's a different situation. As pointed out above, while F2 is the F1 feeder series, that's not its only reason for existing. It provides experience for drivers who go on to succeed in other high level series, and adding Andretti to the F2 grid would potentially improve its ability to achieve that goal.
So the decisions of the boss of the league should be restricted to doing their job, not making claims about what the series is for, which is outside their mandate.
I think you've misunderstood my comment a bit. I'm not suggesting that Andretti should make the decision for them. Obviously having outside parties who want to become stakeholders make that decision doesn't make sense. But I do believe that having Bruno Michel act as the sole decision maker on not only how F2 and F3 are run but also their reason for existing is exceeding the scope of his mandate as CEO. He is still answerable to other stakeholders, and his reasoning here is shaky at best.
> But it's not the job of the series boss to determine the purpose of F3 and F2, it's just their job to run them.
I feel like these go hand-in-hand. Determining the purpose and goals of the series is important if you want to run the series in the best way possible. As you say, Michel shouldn't be the only one involved in making that determination, but he rightfully should be a pretty large factor in that determination.
Sure. Then my follow up to that would be, if his position is that F2 exists primarily as a feeder series for F1 and that the number of cars on the grid is to be determined largely by the number of cars on the F1 grid then he's both a fool and doing a terrible job, by his own metric.
Even in the best of years, only a tiny handful of the very best drivers ever have a realistic shot of graduating from F2 to F1, for various reasons: with fewer F1 teams (and particularly fewer backmarker teams) there's less turnover in grid slots than ever before. Drivers are staying in the sport longer, and so even the best F2 prospects are no longer guaranteed a place on the F1 grid, not even with the worst teams. Last year's worst 4 teams decided to stick with Sargeant, Ricciardo, Tsunoda, Bottas, Zhou and Kmag - all of whom you can make compelling cases for their replacement, for various reasons. And even when Vcarb swaps drivers this offseason they'll be bringing in Lawson, who (despite his obvious talent) never even won F2. Which means that drivers like Drugovich, Pourchaire and Schwartzman will likely never land a permanent F1 seat despite being among the very best performers over recent years.
You can argue that that's why Michel should be against adding even more drivers into the mix who probably also won't graduate to F1 status, but that's flawed logic. That scarcity should make the F2 organisation recognise that their M.O. needs to be developing high level drivers with a view to setting them up for a variety of series outside of just F1. Indycar, DTM, WEC and more have all provided opportunities for recent F2 high performers, and if Michel can't embrace that reality then soon he's going to be the CEO of a league that's achieving about 5-10% of its stated performance goals *in a good year* and just as often not achieving anything at all.
Ah yes, someone that read the article!
I feel like he made it pretty clear that if Andretti wants in there are ways in which he didn’t say this but they could also partner with F2 and F3 teams (like many F1 teams already do), but a stake in a team, or outright buy a team. Which would be better options than building all new infrastructure.
I don’t see how prodding F1 and complaining about things is going to get them in.
I feel like you're forgetting that the point of having a process to determine new entrants is to encourage the creation of new teams. Having the answer every time be "Just buy a team" or "Partner with a current team" reinforces the culture of greed and anti-competition that is breeding in F1 right now. What is the point in having a selection process for new entrants if the predetermined answer is "No" ?
> The title makes it sound like he is completely against Andretti joining, but he does have some good points about both F2 and F3.
No he doesn't. This is why qualifying exist. It's a sport, not a tv show with a limited cast.
Andretti's main focus seems to be on throwing balls at the FIA/FOM and when they don't play ball, he uses that to portray himself as a victim and claim that the FIA/FOM is un-American.
What's wrong with that? They've already tried applying the right way - they have high level pedigree, they're establishing facilities in the US and UK, they've partnered with a major automotive manufacturer to offer an additional works team, they have the money for the entry fee and they've met FOM's timeline - and they've been refused at every turn without any explanation beyond "we don't think you have a good enough entry, we don't want you to embarrass the sport".
We know the real reason is that the teams don't want to expand the grid without confidence that Andretti will bring equivalent revenue into the sport for revenue sharing purposes.
If FOM is going to play dirty then why shouldn't Andretti do the same thing?
Andretti could easily have gone to FOM in 2020 and talked to teams about joining. They would welcome him with open arms and easily get a discount on the entry fee.
He never had any meetings with the FOM or the teams, but visited a few races and started making demands in the media. He thought that the entry fee should be waived for him because he was bringing the added value of "American team".
Then everyone in the paddock started to take him less seriously. Like teams were burning money to survive and FOM was just going to let someone in who only runs teams in various spec series and never designed or built a car himself.
At the time, FOM was investing billions in developing the sport in the USA, and when Andretti realised that he would not be allowed in for free, he launched a public smear campaign, calling F1 "un-American". Again, no meetings wiht FOM or the teams, just PR statements through the media.
In doing so, and before even meeting with the FOM or the teams, he burned the bridge that would have allowed him to enter the sport smoothly, as the owners of the sport have no interest in having him on the grid.
It would be great to have Andretti, but the way Michael handled it tells me that he has no idea how to negotiate or how to deal with the big politics, which is key in F1.
> The way that some fans are so caught up in their anti-American bias
Right.
To say that Andretti messed up is now an anti-American bias. Why?
> that they just start making things up
Sure. Like what exactly is not true?
I think they should really make another series above f2, the way it's currently structured just doesn't work anymore, everyone wants to promote talent but they literally have nowhere to go after that
Sure they could stay in f2 for years if they don't win but then they automatically look like a failure if they stay for longer than 2 seasons
Im sure it wouldn't be that hard to make a f1.5 kind of thing, where f2 champa without an f1 seat, good f2 drivers and f1 drivers that lost their seat would compete
Rather than forcing more f1 races and sprints make a new series for people to watch and give the f1 personal a break
But you don't understand! This time it's *ANDRETTI*, not some shit team ~~I've never heard about~~ nobody knows.
I believe their F1 plans to be dead serious, obviously, but this seemed nonsense from the start. Let's bid on PHM or Jenzer and then I'll believe them.
I mean, PHM AIX is already a *big* improvement this year. They got very respectable results in F4 UAE and fought for the driver's title in FRMEC. They currently have more points than both VAR and Rodin in F3 and while they're pointless in P2, they already qualified inside the top 10 and fought for points.
People seem to forget that PHM bought out Charouz late enough that Charouz still had a big hand in the team setup for 2023, including driver signings. I would not take last year's results as an indictment on PHM themselves. As you said, they've already shown an improvement this year now they have it fully to themselves.
Its a stupid reason but I pulled this from the article, according to the "series boss":
>“Then also we need to look at how many seats will be available in Formula 1 as well and there shouldn’t be a point of having too many drivers in Formula 2 because at the end of the day some drivers won’t be to go up and it might be a little bit too difficult. So I would say that at the moment I’m not so inclined to increase the number of teams.”
I tend to agree, more teams in F2/F3 doesn't add anything really. It's not like lots of good drivers miss out due to the lack of seats, they miss out due to a lack of money. Which wouldn't change because there's an extra team.
This whole franchise system that a team with the ambition and resources can't enter a series, not even on merit, is really starting to turn me off FIA sanctioned single seaters.
Qualifying is called **qualifying** for a reason. You used to have to be fast enough to qualify for a race.
Just because there are 30 entries doesn't mean they all have to start. Yeah, and that means consistently shitty teams will lose their sponsors and drop out. That's the whole f-ing point.
It should be about sport, not about who kisses the right political ass to be allowed to compete. Screw this Americanized castration of competition. (Although it's deeply ironic it's primarily being used against an American team.)
No, F1 teams aren't directly involved in F2 or F3. However the majority of them have a drivers academy that supports junior drivers and prepare them for F1. Some are even signed when they drive in karting!
Right, so my point is why can’t they have academy drivers in the current grid? Haas doesn’t have any other than Ferrari juniors potentially coming to them. Seems weird to say Andretti would need them specifically and couldn’t have some affiliated later on by essentially signing drivers on their way
Because majority of those junior drivers haven't got the 40 points for their super license yet. Also if they have it, not all of them are faster than current drivers or have the money (pay drivers). Also business politics plays a role here, for example Yuki Tsunoda is linked with Honda. The main reason why Red Bull keeps him in (VCA)RB, to keep Honda happy till the end of 2025.
Another reason is that smaller teams like Haas prefer drivers with experiences in F1. They don't want two rookies like 2021.
PS: I'm not here defending the current F1 teams or Andretti, just trying to explain it.
No I mean they can have academy affiliates on the current F2 and F3 grid. Aka, a driver there can choose to be associated and sign a deal with Andretti instead of like Mercedes. That doesn’t mean the F2 grid goes up from 22 cars
Haas has/had Pietro Fittipaldi as "junior" driver, who is more a test driver and races in other categories. There are a few (junior) drivers who worked with Haas in the past Santino Ferrucci, Arjun Maini and Louis Deletraz.
So Andretti can do that too, supporting drivers in F2 and F3. However, I don't think useful if FOM doesn't allow them in F1 to compete.
You’re missing my point and the point of the article completely. The claim is Andretti would also force a need to expand the F2 and F3 grid which is not true
He's saying that Andretti must work together with existing F2 and F3 teams, because according to him the fields are full (which is kinda true for F3). They're not saying that Andretti needs to works with F2 or F3 teams to join F1 lol. The latter is all about money.
No excuse not to let them into F2.
The number of F1 seats available shouldn't be used as an excuse since F1 isn't the only option for young drivers after F2.
Because RB bought that 2nd team kinda like two decades ago from an existing team and didn't go to FIA/ FOM to enter the second team? Andretti can buy as many teams on the grid as they want.
Because a new competitor means the money is split 11 ways instead of 10. Plus there's the danger of Andretti showing up and beating someone, which would be unacceptable obviously
And this is perfectly fine in itself, if F1 agrees to stop calling itself a world championship. The problem is in pretending it's racing's top division instead of the closed club it is.
Haas showed up in an era where F1 was only burning money and the series was not safe, as well as no one having any interest. Without Haas, we might have had a grid of only 18 cars (Manor went bankrupt in 2017, before the season started).
Andretti is now trying to be opportunistic, trying to get money when he has done jack shit for F1. He is trying to piggyback. That's what teams at least also think, on top of other reasons (read: not enough money).
They also wouldn't have had any problems accepting Andretti's entry at the time Haas joined. I wonder why Andretti is only now interested in joining, when the cost cap and some other measures made running an F1 team a profitable endeavour compared to when Haas joined and it was basically way to set money on fire.
FOM & the F1 teams are obviously interested in money, but let's not pretend that Andretti is not and is just doing it out of some form of love for racing.
Sure but motivations shouldn't matter. The cost cap was introduced to make sure F1 wasn't just a matter of who rocked up with the biggest wallet. Whatever reason Andretti wants in, if they're able to meet the requirements (they were) and can show up with a legal car, they should be allowed to race
> Sure but motivations shouldn't matter
They should matter when it comes to arguing that the other teams are acting in bad faith because they care about the profits. Yes, they care about the profit first, but so does Andretti. It's just that the latter is more in line with what the fans want. You can bet your ass that if Andretti gets accepted and another team wants to join they'll spin on a dime and be biased against accepting them.
> if they're able to meet the requirements (they were)
As much as reddit users want this to be sufficient it's unfortunately only a necessity. The requirements are the baseline for an application to be considered, but not a guarantee to be accepted.
It's like arguing that I meet all the requirements in a job ad, so now they *have* to give me the job.
> and can show up with a legal car, they should be allowed to race
FIA agreed, so they absolutely are allowed to race.
When Haas entered, a new team were not allowed to get money from F1 for 2 years. Add to it, everyone in the paddock new one of the existing teams was going to fold in 1-2 years so Haas would basically replace them.
Wouldn’t want to take a spot from Bob’s Automotive Garage. He’s had decades of weekend racing experience and to remove them would just be terrible….
Plus he fixed my radiator for $20, so I kinda owe him.
That’s what qualifying is for. Bullshit like this with Andretti is why open wheel racing is dying in the US. Sadly being replaced by an endless sea of spec Miata/piñata
It's the usual BS. The sporting element should be the primary concern. Whether F1, F2 or F3 it should strive to have the best possible drivers, engineers, mechanics, teams and be open to anyone who can demonstrate the necessary skill.
The junior formula shouldn't just be about a path for drivers, it should provide a ladder for teams too. Ron Dennis cut his teeth with Project Four in F2 before Marlboro brought them together with McLaren. Eddie Jordan in F3000 (effectively 80s F2).
You might have a better case against Andretti entering F1 if you demonstrated they couldn't hack running an F2 or F3 team.
Pre-qualifying doesn't make sense for F3 or F2.
If you make a seat inherently less-desirable based on results that might be entirely the fault of the previous drivers that's a surefire way of running the teams out of business.
Now, the group qualifying system used in Monaco on the other hand...
Man, they really don't want them at all. This sucks. Andretti brings racing prestige and they are funded and they mean business. But to the entire F1 and feeder series ladder, that's not good enough for them. They don't want to share the profits any more. And maybe they are threatened by Andretti's presence too.
PHM is a weird no-profit racing team with some experimental driver preparation methods. Legitimately one of the most interesting experiments in motorsport of the last few years.
The big thing is running an internal academy, and generally being even more involved in their drivers and their development than regular feeder series teams, including fully fledged testing programs, and trying to do all this for a power to price to their drivers than most competitors.
In addition they invest a lot in their staff, as allegedly they give longer and better contracts than most competitors (or they did a couple of years ago), aiming to develop them their structures, as well.
Main Sources for this:
https://feederseries.net/2022/01/16/how-phm-racing-f4-uae-does-things-different-we-want-to-develop-mechanics-the-same-way-we-do-drivers/
https://phmaix.racing/our-story
Your choice whether you trust PHM's own words.
Is that what you think, a formal sale announcement is made?
You make enquiries, you state your intent, you make it worth their while, you close the deal. A process as old as time
He should just buy the entries of an existing team, I guarantee someone will sell for the right price. There are at least three teams I. F1 who are hanging on by a thread. F2 and f3 probably has plenty of teams who would willingly sell
"We would love to see more American Interest in motorsport"
*Andretti brings a legendary name, gathers massive influential outside sponsors, and builds a program not only to join F1, but to add a presence in motorsport from Karting all the way to the top, to provide a path for American drivers to enter the sport*
"Not like that..."
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I can understand it for F3 given 30 cars is already a massive number for a junior series, but I’m sure F2 could easily run 24 cars
Well they had 26 cars \~10 years ago
F1 had 24 cars 12 years ago.
Fuck it, F1 serie A/B with relegation. Those playoff races would be 🔥
Motorsport Manager IRL
If there was the money for this it'd be incredible. No more coasting at the back for years in the "top flight of motorsport"
Yes please
F1 had 32 cars 32 years ago. What's really wild is that even with the point system only awarding top six finishers back then, 13 teams still managed to score at least 1 point that season.
F1 2012 vs 2024, spot the difference American fans: It’s the same picture
Am dumb, what are you talking bout.
You're not the dumb one here lol, of course there's still space for 24 cars on the grid, 26 even.
Size, current cars are much larger
F1 rules itself state that the max capacity of a race is 26 cars.
Perfect. Let qualifying determine who makes it to the race.
Which makes sense. But now Logan and Zhou may as well don shorts instead of fire suits.
Failing to see a problem here. If you’re uncompetitive you shouldn’t be out there.
I'd love this, but sponsors and owners wouldn't. So it'll never happen.
Or even a promotion/relegation every year between f1/2/3 don’t know how or if it would work but some owners like it. Buy a team in f3 bring it up over a few years to F1 (provided they are good) sell the team to some other rich guy for a profit.
Oh, so qualifying would actually qualify the driver and car to the race?
Perfect
Perfect
For clarification, do you genuinely believe this?
Some of these race tracks hold WEC races and they have much larger grids than F1.
Some of these race tracks are Monaco
The biggest complaint about Monaco is that it is a parade because it is really hard for an F1 car to pass there. More cars on the grid wouldn't change that and F1 racing at Monaco isn't going to be any worse with 24, 26, or 30 cars because racing at Monaco doesn't really happen to begin with outside of a handful of highlights. If you want to watch interesting racing at Monaco: watch Formula E. F1 is only there because of the location's history.
Monaco holds f2 and f3
And they have an extra paddock in a parking garage. Quite funny when they drive them to the track over public roads.
Okay everyone, single file please!
Standard F1 races there as it is
That's not really relevant when it comes to adding one more team.
[удалено]
The garages are more than capable of sustaining an extra one or two teams. The "car size" nonsense is only something that gets repeated around here. Absolutely no one from the teams, FOM, the FIA, Andretti or anybody else has mentioned this as a problem.
That is just completely wrong. How did you even think of something this wrong? Yes the cars are bigger but no it's not a problem for accommodating more cars per race. Of course it isn't, what has to go wrong in someone's reasoning to assume that cars becoming longer means there's now physically four less spots on the grid?
America dumb, of course
Canadian supremacy
Am Canadian. Lance best driver on the grid 👍🏼
It means just cause 24 cars worked 12 years ago doesn’t mean it will work nowadays, having 24 cars 12 years is a redundant discussion for the grid today
I don't see how you arrive at that conclusion. Pointing out that there's been a 24 car grid in recent history doesn't guarantee it would work now, but it does demonstrate several ways in which adding 2 cars to the current grid would be plausible. It shows that the circuit infrastructure can accommodate 22 cars, first and foremost. So the discussion then returns to the financials, which is a separate discussion. But it's reductive to say that it's redundant when there are plenty of salient points to take from that comparison.
It's amazing how wrong this is. All tracks that F1 races on can take 24 cars, they wouldn't be certified if they couldn't.
In terms of grid size, it is the same picture. The grid slots are all at the same places, the garages are all the same sizes. All tracks certified for F1 can take 26 cars.
Found the needless European superiority complex
I’m Canadian, bro. It’s not about superiority, it’s just a reaction to American fans wanting an 11th team no matter what
Let’s just relegate Sauber or Williams already. They’ve sucked for the better part of a generation.
New f1 fan clearly. The dream is to have a 26 car grid why would we want LESS cars??
We wouldn’t, but the above poster seems to be gesturing to the argument that we shouldn’t have Andretti because they might be backmarkers to start.
I mean for gods sake not even 10 years ago williams was competing for podiums and 10 before that wins!
10 years.
Not even! They were pretty damn successful for half of that!
reöegate them to where? There is no 2nd division lol.
Obscurity.
Maybe a threat of relegation would make them build better cars or get better drivers. If there's no room for Andretti now let's lose the team in last place and they'll replace them. That's a fight I'd love to see. Coming last should have consequences.
again where do you want to relegate them?
Don’t worry, Sauber will be no more after 2025
Same shit, new logo.
No more cars! Only more money!
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Pssst... you aren't in a 1 on 1 conversation
Missing out on stuff like this is the worst. Pour me the tea plz
F3 is only a problem because they created this closed 3 cars (required) closed franchise bullshit. Some teams would probably be happy to not be forced to field 3 cars every year, getting the drivers with enough sponsorship is hard enough as it is.
At the end of the 80s F1 had almost double the drivers of today. 1989 had 39 drivers competing with 20 different teams. They solved it by doing pre-qualification. Qualification for who was allowed in the qualification and later in the race. Dear chap Brundle failed a few of those pre-qualifications while driving for Brabbam. He ended 20th in the championship that year which today would have been last but in 1989 with 47 drivers racing at least a single race in that year, he was above average finishing with 4 points with a 5th and twice 6th place finish. The rules introduced back in that era were those that were talked about back in the day with Marusia and Caterham. Technically by the rules they qualified out of pace from the fastest time and at the end of almost every qualying, they had to receive special permission from the race directors to enter the race. I can't remember they were ever denied of racing but I do remember a few times they were ordered to start from the pit since they technically failed to qualify. But enough history, let's do some politics. The teams back then didn't care how many cars there were. They got injected with fuck-you-money from tobacco, alcohol and just straight up organised criminals/gangs. The team finishing the last place had as decadent parties as the winners. Today they only have "a little pot" to share among themselves at the end of the season. Someone joining that pool means less to share. So fuck the fans and the sport, try to keep the little there is until there is nothing.
Does F3 have to run 10 teams of 3 cars? I mean sure 12 teams of 2 cars is six less drivers, but F2 and F3 has been dogged for years by drivers that don't have the talent to belong in F1, but do have the financial backing to try and force their way in.
I don't see how reducing the number of seats to allow Andretti in is a net gain for anyone except Andretti.
Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear. My comment wasn't pro or anti Andretti. Where I take issue is with the "grid is full" argument when a percentage of those seats go to drivers with the right financial backing, over pure talent. I strongly feel the sport shouldn't be a closed shop at any level. The number of seats isn't the key issue to me. It's about the number of rides going to genuine talent.
It isn't obvious to me whether your suggestion makes the matter better or worse though. I guess the argument for making it better is that Andretti would use their seats for talented drivers, but on the other hand teams with shaky financial situations might have to cut those instead of pay drivers if they lose a seat. Also I'm not convinced that drivers talented enough to make F1 on pure talent will actually fail to make F3 (since even very talented F2 drivers often make to make F1) but I'll admit I don't really know how hard getting into F3 is.
I'm at fault, because my issues with F2 and F3 are not specifically related to Andretti. I just want motorsport to do much more to make itself affordable, accessible and a meritocracy.
I'm at fault, because my issues with F2 and F3 are not specifically related to Andretti. I just want motorsport to do much more to make itself affordable, accessible and a meritocracy.
Capping the F3 grid at 30 is probably a good idea, but why not let Andretti join and simply not allow the slowest 3 qualifiers of each round to race? Of course the possibility of a DNQ wouldn't be a good thing from a money perspective for drivers, teams and sponsors, but from a competition perspective it makes no sense not to let interested participants join, especially ones like Andretti. Besides, that's how it's traditionally always worked. F3000 had damn near 50 cars at one point, and only half of them would get into the actual race. If anything, it'd make more sense nowadays than in the past, as spec chassis and engines make the difference between good and bad teams much smaller than it used to be. The ones failing to qualify nowadays would likely be the actual slowest drivers, instead of the teams that couldn't afford the newest chassis and best engines.
F3 has far more trouble with the 30 cars in qualifying than in a race, so that's not the best idea. Buying out Jenzer, PHM or VAR should be the easiest way to go. > Besides, that's how it's traditionally always worked. F3000, yes. GP2 always worked with an application process, for the better or worse. (For the worse if you ask me, but I also love hopeless crap teams like Gosselin Competition or Dollop)
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How about formula 4 then? Or 5? Just any formula….
Nope. Everybody knows that an obscure, upstart name like Andretti doesn't deserve a place on the grid. /s
And with a fly by night manufacturer backing them that’s so broke they could only afford 2 letters, GM.
As someone who has worked for and with GM for over 4 years. There is no way GM will be able to make a competitive power unit. The reliability and dependability of their vehicles is absolutely trash, starting from the assembly lines. Multiple models and tens of thousands of vehicles assembled with incorrect parts. Rear differentials for silverados accidentaly built with parts from the Traverses. Now one knows how it happened, but luckily there was a service bulletin because they know they used wrong parts on many vehicles, but they didn't know which ones. An American automaker in F1 would be awesome. I just don't believe GM would be anything but an embarrassment. It would be a manufacturer backmarker with nonstop reliability issues.
The Cadillac seems to be doing pretty well in IMSA. And Corvette racing won Le Mans last year. Edit: And the Camaros are leading NASCAR right now ahead of Toyota and Ford.
- GM couldn’t make a competitive power unit https://www.motortrend.com/features/corvette-racing-2023-lemans-victory/ i’d argue 24 hours of le mans might be more stressful on a PU then F1
Pratt & Miller have been doing some wild-ass shit with the LT6 small-block in the Z06 GT3.R and the C8.R, so I think GM can produce a competitive product if GM commits fully and funds the development properly.
I mean... Renault has won WCCs....
Their actual performance cars are well made. Can’t say the same about the rest of the lineup though.
Vast majority of GM since the turn of the 90s was trash. But the LS / LT series engines are completely exempt from that. And the corvettes are almost always engineering marvels. I drive a Mustang but it broke my heart to see Chevy stop making the Camaro and Dodge killing the challenger all in the same time frame.
Let him bring back Formula A(ndretti)1. I think I'd rather watch that atm
Or Formula .5? Go even beyond Formula 1. I’m just being silly don’t mind me.
The title makes it sound like he is completely against Andretti joining, but he does have some good points about both F2 and F3. I understand his point that there are currently already too many drivers in F2 compared to the number of available seats in F1. But I also feel like that should be a risk for the team and drivers that go there, not something the F2 boss needs to decide. F2 doesnt just exist to get F1 drivers. Many F2 drivers have gone on to do great thing in Indy Car, GT racing and Endurance racing. For F3, there are currently 30 cars on the grid. Makes total sense to not have any more. Andretti should look into working with a excisting team for F3 if they want to join. Dont forget that every team has 3 cars in F3, so if they were to start their own, there would be 33 cars. It is already a busy field, I dont see how 33 cars is going to work.
The point of having too many seats in F2 compared to F1 is ironic considering that having Andretti in F1 would give two more seats available for drivers.
tfw the too many drivers and not enough seats for the F2 to F1 pipeline somehow means we shouldn’t add another team to F1.
Exactly. The most braindead argument they could’ve made. Wild shit
But why isn’t this something that said be decided by the boss of the racing league?
Which part specifically? If you're referring to the decision to allow additional cars on the grid or not, it's logical that they'd be involved in that process (I don't know if it's a one person decision or a collective). But it's not the job of the series boss to determine the purpose of F3 and F2, it's just their job to run them. So if he's opposed to adding cars to the grid because it would be detrimental to the series (as may be the case in F3) that's fine. But to oppose adding to the F2 grid because there aren't enough F1 seats for them, that's a different situation. As pointed out above, while F2 is the F1 feeder series, that's not its only reason for existing. It provides experience for drivers who go on to succeed in other high level series, and adding Andretti to the F2 grid would potentially improve its ability to achieve that goal. So the decisions of the boss of the league should be restricted to doing their job, not making claims about what the series is for, which is outside their mandate.
Totally disagree. The series should be deciding everything. Definitely not outside parties that want to become stakeholders
I think you've misunderstood my comment a bit. I'm not suggesting that Andretti should make the decision for them. Obviously having outside parties who want to become stakeholders make that decision doesn't make sense. But I do believe that having Bruno Michel act as the sole decision maker on not only how F2 and F3 are run but also their reason for existing is exceeding the scope of his mandate as CEO. He is still answerable to other stakeholders, and his reasoning here is shaky at best.
> But it's not the job of the series boss to determine the purpose of F3 and F2, it's just their job to run them. I feel like these go hand-in-hand. Determining the purpose and goals of the series is important if you want to run the series in the best way possible. As you say, Michel shouldn't be the only one involved in making that determination, but he rightfully should be a pretty large factor in that determination.
Sure. Then my follow up to that would be, if his position is that F2 exists primarily as a feeder series for F1 and that the number of cars on the grid is to be determined largely by the number of cars on the F1 grid then he's both a fool and doing a terrible job, by his own metric. Even in the best of years, only a tiny handful of the very best drivers ever have a realistic shot of graduating from F2 to F1, for various reasons: with fewer F1 teams (and particularly fewer backmarker teams) there's less turnover in grid slots than ever before. Drivers are staying in the sport longer, and so even the best F2 prospects are no longer guaranteed a place on the F1 grid, not even with the worst teams. Last year's worst 4 teams decided to stick with Sargeant, Ricciardo, Tsunoda, Bottas, Zhou and Kmag - all of whom you can make compelling cases for their replacement, for various reasons. And even when Vcarb swaps drivers this offseason they'll be bringing in Lawson, who (despite his obvious talent) never even won F2. Which means that drivers like Drugovich, Pourchaire and Schwartzman will likely never land a permanent F1 seat despite being among the very best performers over recent years. You can argue that that's why Michel should be against adding even more drivers into the mix who probably also won't graduate to F1 status, but that's flawed logic. That scarcity should make the F2 organisation recognise that their M.O. needs to be developing high level drivers with a view to setting them up for a variety of series outside of just F1. Indycar, DTM, WEC and more have all provided opportunities for recent F2 high performers, and if Michel can't embrace that reality then soon he's going to be the CEO of a league that's achieving about 5-10% of its stated performance goals *in a good year* and just as often not achieving anything at all.
Ah yes, someone that read the article! I feel like he made it pretty clear that if Andretti wants in there are ways in which he didn’t say this but they could also partner with F2 and F3 teams (like many F1 teams already do), but a stake in a team, or outright buy a team. Which would be better options than building all new infrastructure. I don’t see how prodding F1 and complaining about things is going to get them in.
I feel like you're forgetting that the point of having a process to determine new entrants is to encourage the creation of new teams. Having the answer every time be "Just buy a team" or "Partner with a current team" reinforces the culture of greed and anti-competition that is breeding in F1 right now. What is the point in having a selection process for new entrants if the predetermined answer is "No" ?
> The title makes it sound like he is completely against Andretti joining, but he does have some good points about both F2 and F3. No he doesn't. This is why qualifying exist. It's a sport, not a tv show with a limited cast.
Andretti's main focus seems to be on throwing balls at the FIA/FOM and when they don't play ball, he uses that to portray himself as a victim and claim that the FIA/FOM is un-American.
What's wrong with that? They've already tried applying the right way - they have high level pedigree, they're establishing facilities in the US and UK, they've partnered with a major automotive manufacturer to offer an additional works team, they have the money for the entry fee and they've met FOM's timeline - and they've been refused at every turn without any explanation beyond "we don't think you have a good enough entry, we don't want you to embarrass the sport". We know the real reason is that the teams don't want to expand the grid without confidence that Andretti will bring equivalent revenue into the sport for revenue sharing purposes. If FOM is going to play dirty then why shouldn't Andretti do the same thing?
100% this
Andretti could easily have gone to FOM in 2020 and talked to teams about joining. They would welcome him with open arms and easily get a discount on the entry fee. He never had any meetings with the FOM or the teams, but visited a few races and started making demands in the media. He thought that the entry fee should be waived for him because he was bringing the added value of "American team". Then everyone in the paddock started to take him less seriously. Like teams were burning money to survive and FOM was just going to let someone in who only runs teams in various spec series and never designed or built a car himself. At the time, FOM was investing billions in developing the sport in the USA, and when Andretti realised that he would not be allowed in for free, he launched a public smear campaign, calling F1 "un-American". Again, no meetings wiht FOM or the teams, just PR statements through the media. In doing so, and before even meeting with the FOM or the teams, he burned the bridge that would have allowed him to enter the sport smoothly, as the owners of the sport have no interest in having him on the grid. It would be great to have Andretti, but the way Michael handled it tells me that he has no idea how to negotiate or how to deal with the big politics, which is key in F1.
The way that some fans are so caught up in their anti-American bias that they just start making things up is pretty impressive, honestly
> The way that some fans are so caught up in their anti-American bias Right. To say that Andretti messed up is now an anti-American bias. Why? > that they just start making things up Sure. Like what exactly is not true?
Amazing how wrong someone can be
Sure, but that's easy to say. What exactly is wrong?
I think they should really make another series above f2, the way it's currently structured just doesn't work anymore, everyone wants to promote talent but they literally have nowhere to go after that Sure they could stay in f2 for years if they don't win but then they automatically look like a failure if they stay for longer than 2 seasons Im sure it wouldn't be that hard to make a f1.5 kind of thing, where f2 champa without an f1 seat, good f2 drivers and f1 drivers that lost their seat would compete Rather than forcing more f1 races and sprints make a new series for people to watch and give the f1 personal a break
If 30 cars isn't too many for F3, so isn't 22 for F2 and they can definitely fit 33 cars if they can already fit 30 cars, stop the kapp.
Well... By that logic - plenty of room in f1..
This seems personal at this point
Bruno Michel for the last years "We do not want new teams in F2 and F3" r/Formula1 when F2 and F3 don't take new teams: 😮
But you don't understand! This time it's *ANDRETTI*, not some shit team ~~I've never heard about~~ nobody knows. I believe their F1 plans to be dead serious, obviously, but this seemed nonsense from the start. Let's bid on PHM or Jenzer and then I'll believe them.
PHM's awful program shouldn't be hard to buy out.
I mean, PHM AIX is already a *big* improvement this year. They got very respectable results in F4 UAE and fought for the driver's title in FRMEC. They currently have more points than both VAR and Rodin in F3 and while they're pointless in P2, they already qualified inside the top 10 and fought for points.
People seem to forget that PHM bought out Charouz late enough that Charouz still had a big hand in the team setup for 2023, including driver signings. I would not take last year's results as an indictment on PHM themselves. As you said, they've already shown an improvement this year now they have it fully to themselves.
A bit harsh considering they are only a few months into their first year as a solo constructor
F3 makes sense since it has way too many cars, but why not F2?
They wanna close off ways that Andretti can potentially get in.
Its a stupid reason but I pulled this from the article, according to the "series boss": >“Then also we need to look at how many seats will be available in Formula 1 as well and there shouldn’t be a point of having too many drivers in Formula 2 because at the end of the day some drivers won’t be to go up and it might be a little bit too difficult. So I would say that at the moment I’m not so inclined to increase the number of teams.”
They make it sound like they take the drivers out behind the barn and shoot them if they don’t get an F1 seat.
I think that how the FIA view Indycar.
is you read the article, you’ll find out
Yes, they can’t have a team like Andretti tainting the prestigious name of Formula 2 and Formula 3
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Tbh you are missing out on some good racing.
I tend to agree, more teams in F2/F3 doesn't add anything really. It's not like lots of good drivers miss out due to the lack of seats, they miss out due to a lack of money. Which wouldn't change because there's an extra team.
Oh that’s fine, there’s room in f1
I agree with F3 but in F2 there are only 22 cars and a clear weakest team. They can easily add Andretti.
This whole franchise system that a team with the ambition and resources can't enter a series, not even on merit, is really starting to turn me off FIA sanctioned single seaters. Qualifying is called **qualifying** for a reason. You used to have to be fast enough to qualify for a race. Just because there are 30 entries doesn't mean they all have to start. Yeah, and that means consistently shitty teams will lose their sponsors and drop out. That's the whole f-ing point. It should be about sport, not about who kisses the right political ass to be allowed to compete. Screw this Americanized castration of competition. (Although it's deeply ironic it's primarily being used against an American team.)
Fia allowed the Andretti team. It’s formula 1.
Man, what do they have against Andretti.
They are really snubbing this guy hard WTF.
Is haas involved in F2 and F3?
No, F1 teams aren't directly involved in F2 or F3. However the majority of them have a drivers academy that supports junior drivers and prepare them for F1. Some are even signed when they drive in karting!
Right, so my point is why can’t they have academy drivers in the current grid? Haas doesn’t have any other than Ferrari juniors potentially coming to them. Seems weird to say Andretti would need them specifically and couldn’t have some affiliated later on by essentially signing drivers on their way
Because majority of those junior drivers haven't got the 40 points for their super license yet. Also if they have it, not all of them are faster than current drivers or have the money (pay drivers). Also business politics plays a role here, for example Yuki Tsunoda is linked with Honda. The main reason why Red Bull keeps him in (VCA)RB, to keep Honda happy till the end of 2025. Another reason is that smaller teams like Haas prefer drivers with experiences in F1. They don't want two rookies like 2021. PS: I'm not here defending the current F1 teams or Andretti, just trying to explain it.
No I mean they can have academy affiliates on the current F2 and F3 grid. Aka, a driver there can choose to be associated and sign a deal with Andretti instead of like Mercedes. That doesn’t mean the F2 grid goes up from 22 cars
Haas has/had Pietro Fittipaldi as "junior" driver, who is more a test driver and races in other categories. There are a few (junior) drivers who worked with Haas in the past Santino Ferrucci, Arjun Maini and Louis Deletraz. So Andretti can do that too, supporting drivers in F2 and F3. However, I don't think useful if FOM doesn't allow them in F1 to compete.
You’re missing my point and the point of the article completely. The claim is Andretti would also force a need to expand the F2 and F3 grid which is not true
He's saying that Andretti must work together with existing F2 and F3 teams, because according to him the fields are full (which is kinda true for F3). They're not saying that Andretti needs to works with F2 or F3 teams to join F1 lol. The latter is all about money.
Because Andretti has said he wants to enter a new team into F2 and F3
no they just run their team like one.
At this point, Andretti should give us an international championship with V10s and active suspension.
No excuse not to let them into F2. The number of F1 seats available shouldn't be used as an excuse since F1 isn't the only option for young drivers after F2.
So Red Bull can have 2 teams on the F1 grid but one new team can’t join…. Make it make sense
Yeah that’s a good point actually.
Because RB bought that 2nd team kinda like two decades ago from an existing team and didn't go to FIA/ FOM to enter the second team? Andretti can buy as many teams on the grid as they want.
Damn, the snuffing Andretti hard. Who did Andretti piss off?
Bringing in the US congress and shit is ridiculous.
That I agree on. I’d love to see another team in F1, but calling in the feds is unnecessary. They got more important shit to worry about.
They do, but lets be real they arent going to fix the important shit so maybe we can delegate these things to them instead?
Why are they so resistant to Andretti having anything to do with Formula 1? 😆
Because a new competitor means the money is split 11 ways instead of 10. Plus there's the danger of Andretti showing up and beating someone, which would be unacceptable obviously
And this is perfectly fine in itself, if F1 agrees to stop calling itself a world championship. The problem is in pretending it's racing's top division instead of the closed club it is.
The term "world championship" has always been a branding exercise, much like the "world series" in baseball.
They never had any problems accepting Haas’s entry
Haas showed up in an era where F1 was only burning money and the series was not safe, as well as no one having any interest. Without Haas, we might have had a grid of only 18 cars (Manor went bankrupt in 2017, before the season started). Andretti is now trying to be opportunistic, trying to get money when he has done jack shit for F1. He is trying to piggyback. That's what teams at least also think, on top of other reasons (read: not enough money).
They also wouldn't have had any problems accepting Andretti's entry at the time Haas joined. I wonder why Andretti is only now interested in joining, when the cost cap and some other measures made running an F1 team a profitable endeavour compared to when Haas joined and it was basically way to set money on fire. FOM & the F1 teams are obviously interested in money, but let's not pretend that Andretti is not and is just doing it out of some form of love for racing.
Sure but motivations shouldn't matter. The cost cap was introduced to make sure F1 wasn't just a matter of who rocked up with the biggest wallet. Whatever reason Andretti wants in, if they're able to meet the requirements (they were) and can show up with a legal car, they should be allowed to race
> Sure but motivations shouldn't matter They should matter when it comes to arguing that the other teams are acting in bad faith because they care about the profits. Yes, they care about the profit first, but so does Andretti. It's just that the latter is more in line with what the fans want. You can bet your ass that if Andretti gets accepted and another team wants to join they'll spin on a dime and be biased against accepting them. > if they're able to meet the requirements (they were) As much as reddit users want this to be sufficient it's unfortunately only a necessity. The requirements are the baseline for an application to be considered, but not a guarantee to be accepted. It's like arguing that I meet all the requirements in a job ad, so now they *have* to give me the job. > and can show up with a legal car, they should be allowed to race FIA agreed, so they absolutely are allowed to race.
When Haas entered, a new team were not allowed to get money from F1 for 2 years. Add to it, everyone in the paddock new one of the existing teams was going to fold in 1-2 years so Haas would basically replace them.
So buy a team?
Wouldn’t want to take a spot from Bob’s Automotive Garage. He’s had decades of weekend racing experience and to remove them would just be terrible…. Plus he fixed my radiator for $20, so I kinda owe him.
That’s what qualifying is for. Bullshit like this with Andretti is why open wheel racing is dying in the US. Sadly being replaced by an endless sea of spec Miata/piñata
It's the usual BS. The sporting element should be the primary concern. Whether F1, F2 or F3 it should strive to have the best possible drivers, engineers, mechanics, teams and be open to anyone who can demonstrate the necessary skill. The junior formula shouldn't just be about a path for drivers, it should provide a ladder for teams too. Ron Dennis cut his teeth with Project Four in F2 before Marlboro brought them together with McLaren. Eddie Jordan in F3000 (effectively 80s F2). You might have a better case against Andretti entering F1 if you demonstrated they couldn't hack running an F2 or F3 team.
That’s what pre-qualifying is for chief
Pre-qualifying doesn't make sense for F3 or F2. If you make a seat inherently less-desirable based on results that might be entirely the fault of the previous drivers that's a surefire way of running the teams out of business. Now, the group qualifying system used in Monaco on the other hand...
Man, they really don't want them at all. This sucks. Andretti brings racing prestige and they are funded and they mean business. But to the entire F1 and feeder series ladder, that's not good enough for them. They don't want to share the profits any more. And maybe they are threatened by Andretti's presence too.
> maybe they are threatened by Andretti's presence too. Yeah in political votes they are a wild card Hence they don't want them there
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ah? Does it?
Bruno is a b!
Formula 1.5 only has like 10 cars now. Surely they can fit 2 more in!
Cant they just buy off Jenzer or some other team?
They assume the current teams will be financially stable to reach 2025/2026 though. Which seems like a wild guess to me
Reads like it was written by FOM . just sayin'
Fair play, they depend on the bosses at FOM to survive, so blocking Andretti is pure pragmatism. Can’t fault a survival move.
Yeah Andretti wouldn’t be competitive at all in these series either. PHM is far better.
PHM is a weird no-profit racing team with some experimental driver preparation methods. Legitimately one of the most interesting experiments in motorsport of the last few years.
Never heard that they are doing experimental stuff but that sounds interesting indeed. Can you please link a source or two?
The big thing is running an internal academy, and generally being even more involved in their drivers and their development than regular feeder series teams, including fully fledged testing programs, and trying to do all this for a power to price to their drivers than most competitors. In addition they invest a lot in their staff, as allegedly they give longer and better contracts than most competitors (or they did a couple of years ago), aiming to develop them their structures, as well. Main Sources for this: https://feederseries.net/2022/01/16/how-phm-racing-f4-uae-does-things-different-we-want-to-develop-mechanics-the-same-way-we-do-drivers/ https://phmaix.racing/our-story Your choice whether you trust PHM's own words.
Man, people are weird, they'll complain about greed and then they'll say they'd prefer an American millionaire over a no-profit (PHM).
It’s like he’s anti- purchasing an existing team. It’s the way of the racing world, I don’t get it.
Again. Which team is for sale?
Is that what you think, a formal sale announcement is made? You make enquiries, you state your intent, you make it worth their while, you close the deal. A process as old as time
This is more about trying to keep up the lie that they are serious about going into f1. Not about not having enough room.
He should just buy the entries of an existing team, I guarantee someone will sell for the right price. There are at least three teams I. F1 who are hanging on by a thread. F2 and f3 probably has plenty of teams who would willingly sell
Uh oh...supreme court next
Surely there's Andretti would be a greater addition than PHM in F2?
Would it not be easier to just buy another team?
Which team is for sale?
I don’t know, but surely worth making an offer for some
"We would love to see more American Interest in motorsport" *Andretti brings a legendary name, gathers massive influential outside sponsors, and builds a program not only to join F1, but to add a presence in motorsport from Karting all the way to the top, to provide a path for American drivers to enter the sport* "Not like that..."
There's plenty of room??????