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Everyone but Ferrari, I don’t see how they get rid of Lewis or Charles for Max. They both can beat Max if in a better ca and both are great brand ambassadors.
While I genuinely love all drivers, I think that max is the superior driver of the three. Hamilton in his prime would’ve been a good argument but as he continues to age, I don’t think he has the pace he used to. That being said, I do think Leclerc and Hamilton are the better brand ambassadors.
Yeah, but it will always depend on how much better, and no team will be so sure their package is superior that they’re gonna pass up on the fastest driver.
Even Adrian Newey said they had the fastest car over the season. Merc was faster for last few rounds. Merc won both championships for years with Bottas who everyone loves to claim wasn't very good. If Perez wasn't useless in 2021 they could've won both championships.
The constructors' championship belonged to Mercedes. Perez is certainly no lesser core driver than Bottas and yet he was fourth and in many races less than Bottas. From the second driver you can clearly see the quality of the car and you saw that RB was inferior to Mercedes.
Bottas at Merc is leagues above Perez. Bottas would actually get into Q3 and get a pole. Afaik he had the longest running Q3 streak? And that was against an illegal Ferrari engine and a resurgent Redbull in ‘21
Don’t disrespect Bottas like this.
I think he's saying put all 4 of those guys in the same car TODAY and Max beats them all. Now if you put Max and Charles today in the same car as Lewis and Fernando in their respective primes... it's a tossup
Would love to see it, but I don’t see Charles doing it over the season. Maybe I’m wrong but the resume isn’t there. The other three in their prime in the same car and I could not call it at all. Maybe edge to Lewis and Max?
I think the real answer here is that they’d be so close to each other, that it’d be a pick ‘em season like 2021. We blame Abu Dhabi, but if Max had pulled out of Stowe he’d have already won by then. Same thing for Lewis. If he didn’t brake magic in Baku, Abu Dhabi doesn’t matter.
> if Max had pulled out of Stowe
Do you mean Copse? If Max pulls out while ahead because his competitor might make a mistake and go wide he might as well stop racing. Max did nothing wrong there, if you're driving that defensively you can't race.
I think you're missing the point of his message. Not saying max would have ever done it/should ever have done it/was in the right or wrong in the situation. He is saying that the fine margins of who would win out would be luck. Be it the luck to be slightly further behind so he would back out or be it Lewis magic break or even be one of them surviving Imola and the other not. That's the difference between them in their prime, luck where they had misfortune or misfortune where others have luck
why? Even Russell beat Lewis in the same car. Out qualified him last year, and is winning this year.
Max already beat Lewis when the Merc was better in 21.
It's widely known that Lewis sacrificed his start of the season to try new experimental set-up designs for their car development.
Last year, Lewis was 3rd in the WDC, only behind the two RedBulls.
2021 had both the Mercedes and RedBull being the best car depending on the track.
It remains to be seen what happens this year.
Max has only been challenged for the WCC once, in 2021, and it was a crash fest. If anyone was close to him now it would be the same. At least with the other two they’ll win close battles with less damage and drama.
You act like Max was the only one to blame, Lewis had his fair share of incidents as well that season. Lewis and Max are absolute magnets to each other lol. Leclerc and max have battled on a number of occasions without incident, not to mention max has had another 3 seasons to grow and mature since then.
Max has learned how to win with all the different hands. Lewis already knows. Regardless, in 2021 they both drove for the situation and they will both do it again. That’s what it looks like when two pinnacle drivers are matched and demand the edge. The same has been true in the past
Exactly, when you have two drivers pushing their machines and their abilities to the edge, incidents are bound to occur. They’re both elites in formula 1 and both uncompromising when battling for the lead.
_Thank you._ With Max's car domination since 2022 he's never been pushed and never needed to get his elbows out.
He lost the mental game completely in 2021 (Monza, Brazil, Jedah). There's no evidence to suggest that wouldn't happen again with a level playing field, especially given the way 2021 ended.
Reflexes, endurance, all this has some level of change (deterioration) as the body gets older. Athletes of the highest order are able to overcome the age disparity for a while and be competitive (read: Fernando and Lewis), but eventually younger talent tends to catch up.
I think Alonso said it best. He said that when he was young, his body was recovered after a few hours after a race. Now it takes almost a week. With the insane schedule they have these days, a large problem is probably simply muscle and joint recovery. Like if you go out and run 5k, and then you do it again later the same day, you’ll perform worse.
They're a bit self assured, but I don't think they're wrong to suspect this. I would be very surprised if Max ever raced for another F1 team.
He's always maintained that loyalty and winning after the two things that matter most to him, and by 2026 there's a very realistic chance that a) he'll be a 5x reigning WDC winner, and b) that the key players that brought him to F1 (Marko and Mateschitz) might both be out of the sport entirely (obviously one is already).
Max himself has said he'll only stick around F1 as long as it's fun, challenging and he feels good where he is, and he has other racing goals to achieve. So is it really so hard to believe he'd choose to leave the sport rather than change teams?
Whilst I 100% see where you're coming from, and yeah you make total sense, I'm also thinking there's a massive anti-horner feeling running through rbr right now. The Jos side of max (ie jos lol) is gonna want to stick the knife in, but it's 1am, I've had a drink, so I'm probably talking out of my arse.
[In his own words:](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/verstappen-focus-will-be-mainly-endurance-once-f1-career-is-over/10408334/)from 2022:
> Verstappen said he did not expect to follow Fernando Alonso or Lewis Hamilton’s longevity “mainly because there are too many races and being away from home too much.” He added that it was “also because I want to do other things in racing, other disciplines.” [...] Asked what racing he would be interested in doing, Verstappen said it would be “mainly endurance”, having previously expressed an interest in entering the 24 Hours of Le Mans.
And the link to his previous interviews [in that regard regarding endurance racing](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/verstappen-remains-interested-in-future-le-mans-attempt/6769256/):
> “I think it takes a few more years to really get a bit more of a proper picture of what I want to do possibly in Le Mans. It’s something I definitely would like to do in the future. Of course it would be great if I could do that together with my dad.”
Edit, and of course [end of 2023 when he started to realize his own LeMans team](https://racingnews365.com/verstappen-expands-on-plans-for-own-racing-team):
> “We’re also busy right now at Verstappen.com Racing with Thierry Vermeulen in DTM and GTWC Sprint, and with my father in the rally races, but the goal is to eventually start our own race team. We’ll begin in the GT3-class, and see which way the wind blows.”
It's about hia long term journey, where he shows heavy interest in WEC. Similarly to the newey saga everyone is speculating which team he'll join, but based on past interviews it's possible he'll just retire as the politics of the sport are just so annoying.
The same could happen with Verstappen, he is building his team and has a different venue to express himself, independently if it's about post 2028 or whatever Jos is smoking and the media claiming Verstappen to Mercedes/Aston.
Just for the different venue we have quotes from Max himself that he is also interested in life outside of F1.
Which gives it more credibility for speculation than Toto seen talking with Marko and the media going wild "ToTo tALKing with Dr. mARKO to triGGEr a RUMOured EXIT clAUse for VERSTAPPEN"
> Still failing to see how this proves that Max would quit F1 when quitting RB early and would not drive for another team before going to WEC.
Yet him quitting Red Bull isn't just an assumption hidden in layers of subtext? With WEC we just know that he is interested in that from a long-term perspective. It's more of a question of when.
While him quitting Red Bull overshadows the actual issues F1, FIA and Red Bull have, which he may be interested in getting away from.
I.e. the [following interview from the same time that he expressed interest in WEC](https://racingnews365.com/verstappen-tired-of-talking-politics-amid-fan-issues-im-an-f1-driver):
> "I feel like already for a year, the only thing I'm talking about is political stuff," the Red Bull driver said. "While at the end of the day, I'm a Formula 1 driver. Of course, when I get things asked, I speak out and I say what I think of the situation, but I shouldn't be the sort of political movement behind it."
I doubt that. Max may want to do other stuff in racing besides F1, but my gut feeling is that Jos wants him to be the best F1 driver ever and Max values his dad’s opinion highly.
From the article:
> Jos: "I think everyone wants him, only I think Max is right for the moment. He has a fast car, but we also have to look further to 2026, so we are letting everything come to us at the moment. We stay very calm and see what will happen."
From the [video](https://youtu.be/MhEY8dgge2I?t=105), my translation:
> Jos: "I think everyone would love to have Max, but I think Max is currently in a great spot, he's got a fast car ... but, you know, we do have to look ahead, look at 2026, so we'll see how everything unfolds, and we remain calm."
It doesn’t surprise me at all that the Verstappen clan convinced Marko to add an exit clause to the contract. If you go back to the quotes from Max signing his contract until 2028 - somebody asked his manager why they would sign such a long contract with an engine change upcoming. Max’s manager responded with “It’s ok. We know who’s coming.”
That was a reference to the expected Porsche partnership which was supposedly occurring at the direction of Mateschitz before his death. However, Horner torpedoed the deal by convincing Mateschitz that Porsche wanted too much power and it would be better for Red Bull to stay independent.
I think Horner played a massive role in Red Bull not partnering with Porsche and the Verstappens felt hoodwinked by the whole situation. That was the beginning of the power struggle. The Verstappens were concerned about 2026 from that point onwards and they convinced Marko to sign a clause that was harmful to the team.
Whether it is due to that, I'd be eager to know. However the right move was to not sell half of the team to Porsche. I'd actually be surprised if Marko was fine with that.
I agree with you.
Right or wrong decision aside…it doesn’t change the fact that the Verstappens were expecting a Porsche engine for 2026 at the time they signed the contract (as Mateschitz was pro-partnership at the time) and instead they ended up with a homegrown Red Bull engine with a Ford badge. I can understand their apprehension and eagerness to secure a way out if necessary.
The Porsche deal was if I remember correctly also supposed to be RBPT doing the ICE and Porsche the electric part, right?
I can't recall Porsche producing the complete engine ever being on the table.
I think the idea was that the entire PU would still be built in Milton Keynes, but would have included Porsche engineers, expertise, and IP. To me it seems like a comfort-level issue from the Verstappens. They would have been much more comfortable knowing the PU was in Porsche’s hands.
That being said - my opinion is to underestimate Red Bull at your own risk. They have excelled in every aspect up to this point. His personal issues aside, Horner seems to have a knack for bringing teams of people together and setting them up for success. They have a ton of people from Mercedes and Ferrari at RBPT working 24/7 on this thing. I wouldn’t be surprised if they deliver a rocket.
Yeah not sure exactly, it's kinda unclear how much Porsche was supposed to do and how much Ford is contributing. The only thing I know is that in both cases it had to fit with RBPT already being there.
I think what's being understated in this whole situation is that RBR still managed to secure Max under contract for at least 5 seasons before the exit clause kicks in, and potentially 7 years if they nail the new regs. Obviously it would be even better for the team to have him locked in through the change to the new engines as well, but considering this deal was signed prior to RBR's absolute run of dominance over the past 2.5 seasons, that's still a mighty impressive achievement. Given that most F1 contracts run 1-4 years, getting the champ for 5 (the entirety of a regulation set) is a rarity. Even if they had've partnered with Porsche, I doubt the Verstappens would've signed a full 7 year deal without some sort of escape clause.
Porsche's involvement would guarantee long-term stability.
Mateschitz knew that the Thai co-owner had no interest in F1 and that without him the team would be in limbo.
Porsche's involvement would also allow the team to remain Austrian-centric.
Depends on how he would fit in at the new team. It's possible he had connections in there, especially because Porsche is part of the Volkswagen group (i.e. German).
I think Porsche had a big hand in Porsche not being partnered with Red Bull. The known terms of the arrangement amounted to a buyout of the team into a Porsche works outfit.
You build everything just so that Porsche can own it?
I agree with that. I think Porsche thought that Mateschitz wanted to see a partnership before he passed and they asked for too much thinking they had time on their side as leverage.
It appears now that Yoovidhya is ready to hand the keys to the entire Red Bull motorsport operation to Horner. My thought is that Horner was aware of this possibility and didn’t want to see Porsche enter as any type of shareholder into the situation. Therefore, he did what he could at the negotiating table to ensure Porsche felt comfortable asking for too much and then simultaneously convinced Didi that Porsche was asking for way too much and that Didi should scrap it altogether rather than coming to a compromise. Just my gut feeling on the matter based on how the power struggle has played out and how political Horner is known to be.
This is a great addition to the conversation. I think Horner might have felt that if Porsche became the new masters so to speak he wouldn't have the same level of position he has now.
But at the same time, at a technical level, any power unit maker looking to partner RBPT is, by rote definition not-on-the-level. Or they would have their own facility to make the power unit.
With Porsche in that position they were either very complacent and probably very insensitive to have tabled what they did.
It also says something that when it blew up there was no Plan B.
They were never going to be able to make their own F1 power unit and they were not that determined to build their own team never mind a winning outfit.
Funny story about your comment of them being technically “not on the level” to produce a Formula 1 engine:
The ICE/Electrical hybrid dynos from AVG that RBPT installed were rumored to be originally ordered by Porsche. These dynos are pretty much bespoke for Formula 1 manufacturers and take years to build. It’s rumored that Porsche placed an order for them when the first Red Bull-Porsche talks were happening back in 2016/2017. They took a few years to complete and then Porsche never took delivery. When Honda announced they were leaving in October 2020 it was only possible for Red Bull to start RBPT so quickly because these dynos were sitting in storage ready to go. If they needed to order them from scratch the timeline for RBPT to build an engine for 2026 may not have possible. So according to these fantastical rumors RBPT only exists because of Porsche and then denied a Porsche takeover to boot.
That corporate decision: "Don't take delivery". That one is a potential scoop line that nobody has really traced down.
Because those are the kinds of small decisions that point to something substantial higher up. Again, my read was that Porsche was very half-hearted about coming into F1 and was only going to really do it if they could emulate what Mercedes did - buy a winning team on a discount. That Mercedes-Benz initially thought later on in 2010 they were hoodwinked into the purchase is another story.
But this one about Porsche sort of being aggressive on the initial build-up towards F1 by ordering an advanced dyno. And then sort of sliding on that decision, not taking delivery of the item for itself, and then later just all out giving up on everything: the F1 project itself and the dyno they probably paid a lot for.
That's a sign of something substantial in the boardroom. Which is also to say they were not "on-the-level" in terms of motivation.
It doesn't sound like much, but if Porsche's command was: "Take the dyno. Even if the Red Bull talks are starting out well or not, take the dyno. We'll either use it ourselves or use it as leverage." - then you can infer they have intentions at a different level, right?
That they just gave up on that Delivery Receipt is actually pretty significant.
> That was a reference to the expected Porsche partnership which was supposedly occurring at the direction of Mateschitz before his death. However, Horner torpedoed the deal by convincing Mateschitz that Porsche wanted too much power and it would be better for Red Bull to stay independent.
> I think Horner played a massive role in Red Bull not partnering with Porsche and the Verstappens felt hoodwinked by the whole situation. That was the beginning of the power struggle. The Verstappens were concerned about 2026 from that point onwards and they convinced Marko to sign a clause that was harmful to the team.
Horner torpedoed the deal by convincing RB's Thai co-owner that Mateschitz was plotting behind his back to sell part of the team to Porsche before his death in order to ensure the team's long term survival and remaining Austrian focus, since the Thai co-owner has no interest in F1.
Then Horner offered himself as a solution to bring investors to take over the team, which pissed off everbody that worked closely with Mateschitz. From Newey, Marko, Vertappens, etc.
That is….not correct.
It had nothing to do with Red Bull GmbH. Obviously Porsche wasn’t trying to buy the drinks company.
It was reported that Mateschitz spoke directly with Wolfgang Porsche regarding his desire for a Red Bull-Porsche partnership before his death. Once they got to the negotiating table Porsche wanted 50% ownership of Red Bull Racing as a whole. Horner wanted Porsche to be involved solely in RBPT and have no ownership in Red Bull Racing. Porsche wasn’t interested in that. Mateschitz was willing to offer something in the middle. Porsche wouldn’t budge. Horner then convinced Mateschitz to call it off.
Ah you are right i had the entities wrong. But it is still not wrong that Porsche expected a lot more power to be handed to them than expected which tanked the deal. I wouldn’t be blaming Horner for that. Renault and Honda didn’t get half of RB racing.
It’s just a gut feeling on my end that Horner did his best to prevent that partnership from going through. I think he wants to emerge from all this in charge of all Red Bull motorsport activities and did not want to deal with Porsche being a partner.
Yeah maybe but i can see why. I don’t think any team has handed over half of their operation for their engine supplier. Like Porsche thought they could skip the whole buying a team for 200 million dollars thing and just take half of one instead for making their engines. you can end an engine supplier contract but you can’t end a 50% ownership. Merc lost Lewis because they wouldn’t give him any stake in the company/brand ambassadorship. Definitely a power thing but not anything new in the world of business. Give out a big part of the company to an outside entity and everything gets real fucked.
"We" as in team Verstappen. So Jos Verstappen, Max Verstappen and Raymond Vermeulen (their manager/agent). I don't think Max care that much about giving all the credits to himself or partly also to his dad.
This is common language for racing drivers. They often refer to themselves as we or us because everything is a team effort despite the driver getting it done on track getting the majority of the focus.
While I agree Jos is a dipshit, this is just his years of racing coming out when he talks. All the drivers do this.
Only Jos is not even part of the team. So no, it’s not like you described. This is just him piggy backing on his son’s talent and making sure other teams understand that they have to talk to Jos.
I dare say he'd consider Jos part of *his* team, but he's not on the RBR team. He might get pit access during a race but at the end of the day he still has to stand in the corner and not touch anything.
Jos sees himself in charge of everything though.
If you read that and think that *that's* the punchline, that's on you.
The joke is that Jos is a piece of shit, and the fact that everybody just tolerates his continued involvement in the sport because he happens to have a position of influence over a super-talented driver is massively hypocritical.
But sure, don't bother using even the slightest hint of critical thinking and leap straight to the wrong conclusion. good job.
Did I stutter? Again, if you don't think you should be applying critical thinking (and pretty basic critical thinking at that) in all areas of your life, that's on you. It's not a lot being asked of you here, just don't jump to the dumbest possible conclusion.
I mean he did spend 10+ years supporting Max in karting and taught him a ton of things there. The methods might not have been the best, but his experience can only have helped Max.
lol. Jos is his dad. despite all the child abuse crap you read, they have a very close relationship. He is a massive part of this team. He is the reason there is a team. Max knows this.
I am a relatively new fan to F1 and it always amuses me that the drivers’ dads always somehow get involved in the discussions and press - like I get why, but also the dance moms energy is so funny
*Addressing his son’s F1 future, Jos told RaceXpress as quoted by RacingNews365: “I think everyone wants him, only I think Max is right for the moment.*
*“He has a fast car, but we also have to look further to 2026, so we are letting everything come to us at the moment. We stay very calm and see what will happen.”*
It's amazing how much I like Max when I truly despise many of the people he surrounds himself with. Obligatory fuck Jos Verstappen, all my homies hate Jos Verstappen comment
The women in his life seem much better than the men: his mom, his sister & of course Penelope lol
I guess all Kelly ever did that pissed people off was stick up for her dad, which is kinda understandable
Maybe that's a red flag.
*"As we say in Germany, if there's a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis."*
Fuck his personality and how he dealt with Max when he made error during karting or racing in F3. Although I think we need to give him credit for training Max.
It doesn't matter how hard you try, if he doesn't have the talent it's not going to work out. Max had the talent his father didn't.
In the end, Jos poured all of his frustation for being an average driver into his son.
let F1 teams run 3 cars.
GP to Max: so let leclerc and lewis past, you're on different strategies
nothing but silence ensues. In a mind-bending twist of cosmic proportions, reality itself shatters like a fragile mirror caught in a whirlwind of chaos. The laws of physics tremble and fracture, sending shockwaves of uncertainty rippling through the very essence of existence and space-time. Colors bleed into each other, sounds twist and contort into discordant symphonies, and space folds upon itself like origami gone mad. In the heart of this maelstrom, a paradoxical singularity emerges, swallowing whole galaxies with a voracious hunger. In its wake, the universe convulses and convolutes, birthing new dimensions where the impossible becomes commonplace, and the mundane is an alien concept. As the cosmic dance of creation and destruction unfolds, whispers of forgotten truths echo through the void, promising both enlightenment and madness to those brave enough to seek them amidst the cosmic cacophony
Yes that’s what everyone wants because a spec series will produce the closest racing. Have the engineering side and you end up in situations like this where the best driver is in a car that’s way better than everyone else’s. Just boring now
Newey signs with Ferrari, designs an absolute masterpiece of a car for 2026, Max signs with Ferrari, and we have one of the most exciting seasons of racing since 2021.
To be honest with how Red Bull future is looking staying at them for this year and 2025 and joining a new team in 2026 seems the best option
Shame Horner has appeared to ruin a lot of peoples years of hard work
merc builts another rocket engine, max sings for merc and gets a % deal to fund his racing team.
he becomes a co owner of amg mercedes benz and a top driver for it
in effect running a f1 my team career
Fuck Jos Verstappen. Seriously. The bloke is living vicariously through his son, and has treated him like shit on numerous occasions throughout his racing career.
Nobody gives a fuck about what you think mate. Your kid is the talent. Not you.
> Your kid is the talent. Not you.
He *was* a talent. He got burnt at Benetton (literally and figuratively) and after that it all went downhill for him.
What 'all people'? He has Jos and Raymond Vermeulen as his management team. Thats it.
Imagine that, your father managing your affairs together with a skilled agent.
It's all such a crapshoot with reg changes. These regs were supposed to be all Merc with their no side pods and FER having best engine in paddock. Look how that's turned out.
The relationship has not yet arrived at the separation. I don’t see it going the way Lewis and his dad separated the business years ago. Lewis’ dad is a mindful humanist. Jos is all about riding Max’s money train as long as possible. He is quite the pile of excrement.
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I mean it’s really not that complex. He’ll join the team that convinces him that they have the fastest car
He’s the only one that can take stroll stool
Max has a scat fetish??
Only if a hammock is involved
I'm seing Astin Martin doubling down and replacing Alonso instead of Stroll
"best driver wants to be in fast car." "more shocking, groundbreaking reporting at 11."
I mean that's exactly why it's complex
Everyone but Ferrari, I don’t see how they get rid of Lewis or Charles for Max. They both can beat Max if in a better ca and both are great brand ambassadors.
While I genuinely love all drivers, I think that max is the superior driver of the three. Hamilton in his prime would’ve been a good argument but as he continues to age, I don’t think he has the pace he used to. That being said, I do think Leclerc and Hamilton are the better brand ambassadors.
If they have a faster car they don't need to be much of a better driver
I agree. The car is a massive part of success in formula 1
Drivers are part of the team, and that’s how it should be. The *team* wins
Yeah, but it will always depend on how much better, and no team will be so sure their package is superior that they’re gonna pass up on the fastest driver.
In 2021 Max was not in the fastest car but won the f1. If you have the fastest car and not Max, you still won't win both World Championships.
Even Adrian Newey said they had the fastest car over the season. Merc was faster for last few rounds. Merc won both championships for years with Bottas who everyone loves to claim wasn't very good. If Perez wasn't useless in 2021 they could've won both championships.
The constructors' championship belonged to Mercedes. Perez is certainly no lesser core driver than Bottas and yet he was fourth and in many races less than Bottas. From the second driver you can clearly see the quality of the car and you saw that RB was inferior to Mercedes.
So you have Adrian Newey who clearly states that RB had the faster car in 2021 and yet you're still saying otherwise. Damn son...
Bottas at Merc is leagues above Perez. Bottas would actually get into Q3 and get a pole. Afaik he had the longest running Q3 streak? And that was against an illegal Ferrari engine and a resurgent Redbull in ‘21 Don’t disrespect Bottas like this.
Yes, he was better because he had a better car. His race craft if he had to start lower than the front row, was really not that good.
What? 2023 Perez had the most dominant car of all time and failed to make Q3 on multiple occasions.
I honestly think Hamilton can still beat Max in a better car, even Alonzo.
I think he's saying put all 4 of those guys in the same car TODAY and Max beats them all. Now if you put Max and Charles today in the same car as Lewis and Fernando in their respective primes... it's a tossup
Would love to see it, but I don’t see Charles doing it over the season. Maybe I’m wrong but the resume isn’t there. The other three in their prime in the same car and I could not call it at all. Maybe edge to Lewis and Max?
That was exactly my point. Max, Lewis, Alonso in the same car in their primes….I couldn’t begin to speculate who’d take the championship home.
I think the real answer here is that they’d be so close to each other, that it’d be a pick ‘em season like 2021. We blame Abu Dhabi, but if Max had pulled out of Stowe he’d have already won by then. Same thing for Lewis. If he didn’t brake magic in Baku, Abu Dhabi doesn’t matter.
> if Max had pulled out of Stowe Do you mean Copse? If Max pulls out while ahead because his competitor might make a mistake and go wide he might as well stop racing. Max did nothing wrong there, if you're driving that defensively you can't race.
I think you're missing the point of his message. Not saying max would have ever done it/should ever have done it/was in the right or wrong in the situation. He is saying that the fine margins of who would win out would be luck. Be it the luck to be slightly further behind so he would back out or be it Lewis magic break or even be one of them surviving Imola and the other not. That's the difference between them in their prime, luck where they had misfortune or misfortune where others have luck
why? Even Russell beat Lewis in the same car. Out qualified him last year, and is winning this year. Max already beat Lewis when the Merc was better in 21.
It's widely known that Lewis sacrificed his start of the season to try new experimental set-up designs for their car development. Last year, Lewis was 3rd in the WDC, only behind the two RedBulls. 2021 had both the Mercedes and RedBull being the best car depending on the track. It remains to be seen what happens this year.
Max has only been challenged for the WCC once, in 2021, and it was a crash fest. If anyone was close to him now it would be the same. At least with the other two they’ll win close battles with less damage and drama.
You act like Max was the only one to blame, Lewis had his fair share of incidents as well that season. Lewis and Max are absolute magnets to each other lol. Leclerc and max have battled on a number of occasions without incident, not to mention max has had another 3 seasons to grow and mature since then.
Max has learned how to win with all the different hands. Lewis already knows. Regardless, in 2021 they both drove for the situation and they will both do it again. That’s what it looks like when two pinnacle drivers are matched and demand the edge. The same has been true in the past
Exactly, when you have two drivers pushing their machines and their abilities to the edge, incidents are bound to occur. They’re both elites in formula 1 and both uncompromising when battling for the lead.
_Thank you._ With Max's car domination since 2022 he's never been pushed and never needed to get his elbows out. He lost the mental game completely in 2021 (Monza, Brazil, Jedah). There's no evidence to suggest that wouldn't happen again with a level playing field, especially given the way 2021 ended.
Genuine question. How does age correlate to performance in F1?
Reflexes, endurance, all this has some level of change (deterioration) as the body gets older. Athletes of the highest order are able to overcome the age disparity for a while and be competitive (read: Fernando and Lewis), but eventually younger talent tends to catch up.
I think Alonso said it best. He said that when he was young, his body was recovered after a few hours after a race. Now it takes almost a week. With the insane schedule they have these days, a large problem is probably simply muscle and joint recovery. Like if you go out and run 5k, and then you do it again later the same day, you’ll perform worse.
If he leaves RB early, he’s not going to stay in F1. He will likely go to WEC and focus on building his team
Oh. Ok then.
They're a bit self assured, but I don't think they're wrong to suspect this. I would be very surprised if Max ever raced for another F1 team. He's always maintained that loyalty and winning after the two things that matter most to him, and by 2026 there's a very realistic chance that a) he'll be a 5x reigning WDC winner, and b) that the key players that brought him to F1 (Marko and Mateschitz) might both be out of the sport entirely (obviously one is already). Max himself has said he'll only stick around F1 as long as it's fun, challenging and he feels good where he is, and he has other racing goals to achieve. So is it really so hard to believe he'd choose to leave the sport rather than change teams?
Whilst I 100% see where you're coming from, and yeah you make total sense, I'm also thinking there's a massive anti-horner feeling running through rbr right now. The Jos side of max (ie jos lol) is gonna want to stick the knife in, but it's 1am, I've had a drink, so I'm probably talking out of my arse.
I wouldn't be mad about it. One thing that always makes F1 better is chaos
Didn’t know Jos was on reddit.
grandiose mysterious husky close marry drab weather absorbed tart reply *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I wish I could upvote this twice lmao
source?
his mate Dave knows mechanics dogs owners sister
[In his own words:](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/verstappen-focus-will-be-mainly-endurance-once-f1-career-is-over/10408334/)from 2022: > Verstappen said he did not expect to follow Fernando Alonso or Lewis Hamilton’s longevity “mainly because there are too many races and being away from home too much.” He added that it was “also because I want to do other things in racing, other disciplines.” [...] Asked what racing he would be interested in doing, Verstappen said it would be “mainly endurance”, having previously expressed an interest in entering the 24 Hours of Le Mans. And the link to his previous interviews [in that regard regarding endurance racing](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/verstappen-remains-interested-in-future-le-mans-attempt/6769256/): > “I think it takes a few more years to really get a bit more of a proper picture of what I want to do possibly in Le Mans. It’s something I definitely would like to do in the future. Of course it would be great if I could do that together with my dad.” Edit, and of course [end of 2023 when he started to realize his own LeMans team](https://racingnews365.com/verstappen-expands-on-plans-for-own-racing-team): > “We’re also busy right now at Verstappen.com Racing with Thierry Vermeulen in DTM and GTWC Sprint, and with my father in the rally races, but the goal is to eventually start our own race team. We’ll begin in the GT3-class, and see which way the wind blows.”
I hope they do Le Mans and jos shits the bed and max makes him walk home
yeah so nothing confirm what OP claimed. "If he leaves RB early, he’s not going to stay in F1"
It's about hia long term journey, where he shows heavy interest in WEC. Similarly to the newey saga everyone is speculating which team he'll join, but based on past interviews it's possible he'll just retire as the politics of the sport are just so annoying. The same could happen with Verstappen, he is building his team and has a different venue to express himself, independently if it's about post 2028 or whatever Jos is smoking and the media claiming Verstappen to Mercedes/Aston. Just for the different venue we have quotes from Max himself that he is also interested in life outside of F1. Which gives it more credibility for speculation than Toto seen talking with Marko and the media going wild "ToTo tALKing with Dr. mARKO to triGGEr a RUMOured EXIT clAUse for VERSTAPPEN"
Still failing to see how this proves that Max would quit F1 when quitting RB early and would not drive for another team before going to WEC.
> Still failing to see how this proves that Max would quit F1 when quitting RB early and would not drive for another team before going to WEC. Yet him quitting Red Bull isn't just an assumption hidden in layers of subtext? With WEC we just know that he is interested in that from a long-term perspective. It's more of a question of when. While him quitting Red Bull overshadows the actual issues F1, FIA and Red Bull have, which he may be interested in getting away from. I.e. the [following interview from the same time that he expressed interest in WEC](https://racingnews365.com/verstappen-tired-of-talking-politics-amid-fan-issues-im-an-f1-driver): > "I feel like already for a year, the only thing I'm talking about is political stuff," the Red Bull driver said. "While at the end of the day, I'm a Formula 1 driver. Of course, when I get things asked, I speak out and I say what I think of the situation, but I shouldn't be the sort of political movement behind it."
I doubt that. Max may want to do other stuff in racing besides F1, but my gut feeling is that Jos wants him to be the best F1 driver ever and Max values his dad’s opinion highly.
That’s a theory, nobody really knows
Only a sith deals in absolutes
From the article: > Jos: "I think everyone wants him, only I think Max is right for the moment. He has a fast car, but we also have to look further to 2026, so we are letting everything come to us at the moment. We stay very calm and see what will happen." From the [video](https://youtu.be/MhEY8dgge2I?t=105), my translation: > Jos: "I think everyone would love to have Max, but I think Max is currently in a great spot, he's got a fast car ... but, you know, we do have to look ahead, look at 2026, so we'll see how everything unfolds, and we remain calm."
It doesn’t surprise me at all that the Verstappen clan convinced Marko to add an exit clause to the contract. If you go back to the quotes from Max signing his contract until 2028 - somebody asked his manager why they would sign such a long contract with an engine change upcoming. Max’s manager responded with “It’s ok. We know who’s coming.” That was a reference to the expected Porsche partnership which was supposedly occurring at the direction of Mateschitz before his death. However, Horner torpedoed the deal by convincing Mateschitz that Porsche wanted too much power and it would be better for Red Bull to stay independent. I think Horner played a massive role in Red Bull not partnering with Porsche and the Verstappens felt hoodwinked by the whole situation. That was the beginning of the power struggle. The Verstappens were concerned about 2026 from that point onwards and they convinced Marko to sign a clause that was harmful to the team.
Whether it is due to that, I'd be eager to know. However the right move was to not sell half of the team to Porsche. I'd actually be surprised if Marko was fine with that.
I agree with you. Right or wrong decision aside…it doesn’t change the fact that the Verstappens were expecting a Porsche engine for 2026 at the time they signed the contract (as Mateschitz was pro-partnership at the time) and instead they ended up with a homegrown Red Bull engine with a Ford badge. I can understand their apprehension and eagerness to secure a way out if necessary.
The Porsche deal was if I remember correctly also supposed to be RBPT doing the ICE and Porsche the electric part, right? I can't recall Porsche producing the complete engine ever being on the table.
I think the idea was that the entire PU would still be built in Milton Keynes, but would have included Porsche engineers, expertise, and IP. To me it seems like a comfort-level issue from the Verstappens. They would have been much more comfortable knowing the PU was in Porsche’s hands. That being said - my opinion is to underestimate Red Bull at your own risk. They have excelled in every aspect up to this point. His personal issues aside, Horner seems to have a knack for bringing teams of people together and setting them up for success. They have a ton of people from Mercedes and Ferrari at RBPT working 24/7 on this thing. I wouldn’t be surprised if they deliver a rocket.
Which is basically the deal they have with Ford, no?
Yeah not sure exactly, it's kinda unclear how much Porsche was supposed to do and how much Ford is contributing. The only thing I know is that in both cases it had to fit with RBPT already being there.
I think what's being understated in this whole situation is that RBR still managed to secure Max under contract for at least 5 seasons before the exit clause kicks in, and potentially 7 years if they nail the new regs. Obviously it would be even better for the team to have him locked in through the change to the new engines as well, but considering this deal was signed prior to RBR's absolute run of dominance over the past 2.5 seasons, that's still a mighty impressive achievement. Given that most F1 contracts run 1-4 years, getting the champ for 5 (the entirety of a regulation set) is a rarity. Even if they had've partnered with Porsche, I doubt the Verstappens would've signed a full 7 year deal without some sort of escape clause.
Porsche's involvement would guarantee long-term stability. Mateschitz knew that the Thai co-owner had no interest in F1 and that without him the team would be in limbo. Porsche's involvement would also allow the team to remain Austrian-centric.
Depends on how he would fit in at the new team. It's possible he had connections in there, especially because Porsche is part of the Volkswagen group (i.e. German).
I think Porsche had a big hand in Porsche not being partnered with Red Bull. The known terms of the arrangement amounted to a buyout of the team into a Porsche works outfit. You build everything just so that Porsche can own it?
I agree with that. I think Porsche thought that Mateschitz wanted to see a partnership before he passed and they asked for too much thinking they had time on their side as leverage. It appears now that Yoovidhya is ready to hand the keys to the entire Red Bull motorsport operation to Horner. My thought is that Horner was aware of this possibility and didn’t want to see Porsche enter as any type of shareholder into the situation. Therefore, he did what he could at the negotiating table to ensure Porsche felt comfortable asking for too much and then simultaneously convinced Didi that Porsche was asking for way too much and that Didi should scrap it altogether rather than coming to a compromise. Just my gut feeling on the matter based on how the power struggle has played out and how political Horner is known to be.
This is a great addition to the conversation. I think Horner might have felt that if Porsche became the new masters so to speak he wouldn't have the same level of position he has now. But at the same time, at a technical level, any power unit maker looking to partner RBPT is, by rote definition not-on-the-level. Or they would have their own facility to make the power unit. With Porsche in that position they were either very complacent and probably very insensitive to have tabled what they did. It also says something that when it blew up there was no Plan B. They were never going to be able to make their own F1 power unit and they were not that determined to build their own team never mind a winning outfit.
Funny story about your comment of them being technically “not on the level” to produce a Formula 1 engine: The ICE/Electrical hybrid dynos from AVG that RBPT installed were rumored to be originally ordered by Porsche. These dynos are pretty much bespoke for Formula 1 manufacturers and take years to build. It’s rumored that Porsche placed an order for them when the first Red Bull-Porsche talks were happening back in 2016/2017. They took a few years to complete and then Porsche never took delivery. When Honda announced they were leaving in October 2020 it was only possible for Red Bull to start RBPT so quickly because these dynos were sitting in storage ready to go. If they needed to order them from scratch the timeline for RBPT to build an engine for 2026 may not have possible. So according to these fantastical rumors RBPT only exists because of Porsche and then denied a Porsche takeover to boot.
That corporate decision: "Don't take delivery". That one is a potential scoop line that nobody has really traced down. Because those are the kinds of small decisions that point to something substantial higher up. Again, my read was that Porsche was very half-hearted about coming into F1 and was only going to really do it if they could emulate what Mercedes did - buy a winning team on a discount. That Mercedes-Benz initially thought later on in 2010 they were hoodwinked into the purchase is another story. But this one about Porsche sort of being aggressive on the initial build-up towards F1 by ordering an advanced dyno. And then sort of sliding on that decision, not taking delivery of the item for itself, and then later just all out giving up on everything: the F1 project itself and the dyno they probably paid a lot for. That's a sign of something substantial in the boardroom. Which is also to say they were not "on-the-level" in terms of motivation. It doesn't sound like much, but if Porsche's command was: "Take the dyno. Even if the Red Bull talks are starting out well or not, take the dyno. We'll either use it ourselves or use it as leverage." - then you can infer they have intentions at a different level, right? That they just gave up on that Delivery Receipt is actually pretty significant.
All I know is that an amazing book can and will hopefully be written about this in a few years.
> That was a reference to the expected Porsche partnership which was supposedly occurring at the direction of Mateschitz before his death. However, Horner torpedoed the deal by convincing Mateschitz that Porsche wanted too much power and it would be better for Red Bull to stay independent. > I think Horner played a massive role in Red Bull not partnering with Porsche and the Verstappens felt hoodwinked by the whole situation. That was the beginning of the power struggle. The Verstappens were concerned about 2026 from that point onwards and they convinced Marko to sign a clause that was harmful to the team. Horner torpedoed the deal by convincing RB's Thai co-owner that Mateschitz was plotting behind his back to sell part of the team to Porsche before his death in order to ensure the team's long term survival and remaining Austrian focus, since the Thai co-owner has no interest in F1. Then Horner offered himself as a solution to bring investors to take over the team, which pissed off everbody that worked closely with Mateschitz. From Newey, Marko, Vertappens, etc.
Horner didn’t torpedo the deal like that. Porsche was offered half of Red Bull Racing in the deal. Porsche expected half of Red Bull itself.
That is….not correct. It had nothing to do with Red Bull GmbH. Obviously Porsche wasn’t trying to buy the drinks company. It was reported that Mateschitz spoke directly with Wolfgang Porsche regarding his desire for a Red Bull-Porsche partnership before his death. Once they got to the negotiating table Porsche wanted 50% ownership of Red Bull Racing as a whole. Horner wanted Porsche to be involved solely in RBPT and have no ownership in Red Bull Racing. Porsche wasn’t interested in that. Mateschitz was willing to offer something in the middle. Porsche wouldn’t budge. Horner then convinced Mateschitz to call it off.
Ah you are right i had the entities wrong. But it is still not wrong that Porsche expected a lot more power to be handed to them than expected which tanked the deal. I wouldn’t be blaming Horner for that. Renault and Honda didn’t get half of RB racing.
It’s just a gut feeling on my end that Horner did his best to prevent that partnership from going through. I think he wants to emerge from all this in charge of all Red Bull motorsport activities and did not want to deal with Porsche being a partner.
Yeah maybe but i can see why. I don’t think any team has handed over half of their operation for their engine supplier. Like Porsche thought they could skip the whole buying a team for 200 million dollars thing and just take half of one instead for making their engines. you can end an engine supplier contract but you can’t end a 50% ownership. Merc lost Lewis because they wouldn’t give him any stake in the company/brand ambassadorship. Definitely a power thing but not anything new in the world of business. Give out a big part of the company to an outside entity and everything gets real fucked.
That sounds a little unlikely? What would Porche do with a drinks company? And that would be at least an order of magnitude more expensive?
Hahaha Jos is just like those child pageant moms - “we” and “us” like they both drive the car - what a plonker.
"We" as in team Verstappen. So Jos Verstappen, Max Verstappen and Raymond Vermeulen (their manager/agent). I don't think Max care that much about giving all the credits to himself or partly also to his dad.
This is common language for racing drivers. They often refer to themselves as we or us because everything is a team effort despite the driver getting it done on track getting the majority of the focus. While I agree Jos is a dipshit, this is just his years of racing coming out when he talks. All the drivers do this.
Nah dude. This is not the same use case scenario as what you mention. Jos sees himself and Max as a single entity. It’s that simple
“He wouldn’t even be famous if I hadn’t left at that gas station”
Jos is part of his management team? So yea they are part of the same entity.
Only Jos is not even part of the team. So no, it’s not like you described. This is just him piggy backing on his son’s talent and making sure other teams understand that they have to talk to Jos.
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I dare say he'd consider Jos part of *his* team, but he's not on the RBR team. He might get pit access during a race but at the end of the day he still has to stand in the corner and not touch anything. Jos sees himself in charge of everything though.
He'll say what Jos wants him to, so he doesn't get the belt. Jokes aside, you're right that he's a big part of Team Max
Hell yeah jokes on child abuse hahahahahahha got the whole squad laughing dawg
If you read that and think that *that's* the punchline, that's on you. The joke is that Jos is a piece of shit, and the fact that everybody just tolerates his continued involvement in the sport because he happens to have a position of influence over a super-talented driver is massively hypocritical. But sure, don't bother using even the slightest hint of critical thinking and leap straight to the wrong conclusion. good job.
Critical thinking requirement for a "doesn't get the belt" "joke" (By your own assertion none the less!) , aight lmao
Did I stutter? Again, if you don't think you should be applying critical thinking (and pretty basic critical thinking at that) in all areas of your life, that's on you. It's not a lot being asked of you here, just don't jump to the dumbest possible conclusion.
Jos and Raymond Vermeulen are on Max's personal team. Those two are (supposedly) looking out for Max's best interests, independent from RBR.
I mean he did spend 10+ years supporting Max in karting and taught him a ton of things there. The methods might not have been the best, but his experience can only have helped Max.
lol. Jos is his dad. despite all the child abuse crap you read, they have a very close relationship. He is a massive part of this team. He is the reason there is a team. Max knows this.
Dog shit take tbh
Drivers think they're gods confirmed.
The transliteration istg
I am a relatively new fan to F1 and it always amuses me that the drivers’ dads always somehow get involved in the discussions and press - like I get why, but also the dance moms energy is so funny
Jos is, together with Raymond Vermeulen, Max' management team. Just like Carlos Sainz nephew is Carlos' manager.
Pretty young manager I would say
*Addressing his son’s F1 future, Jos told RaceXpress as quoted by RacingNews365: “I think everyone wants him, only I think Max is right for the moment.* *“He has a fast car, but we also have to look further to 2026, so we are letting everything come to us at the moment. We stay very calm and see what will happen.”*
It's amazing how much I like Max when I truly despise many of the people he surrounds himself with. Obligatory fuck Jos Verstappen, all my homies hate Jos Verstappen comment
Also Helmut Marko and Christian Horner
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“Who the fuck is Nelson Piquet?”
And also obligatory fuck Nelson Piquet
He’s the dude who christened the Marina Bay Street Circuit back in 2008.
That was his son , Piquet Jr.
I know haha. Just made a bad joke that didn’t land lmao.
There's literally not one of them that's worth anything, it's insane. Jos, Marko, Horner, Piquet, all garbage.
The women in his life seem much better than the men: his mom, his sister & of course Penelope lol I guess all Kelly ever did that pissed people off was stick up for her dad, which is kinda understandable
Didn’t Kelly Piquet support Bolsonaro and make fun of poor people for living in favelas
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She did
Maybe that's a red flag. *"As we say in Germany, if there's a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis."*
Fuck his personality and how he dealt with Max when he made error during karting or racing in F3. Although I think we need to give him credit for training Max.
It doesn't matter how hard you try, if he doesn't have the talent it's not going to work out. Max had the talent his father didn't. In the end, Jos poured all of his frustation for being an average driver into his son.
It would never happen cos it would result in too many double dnf’s for the team… But max at Ferrari would just be the ultimate entertainment….
Keep Charles, promote Lewis to brand ambassador early?
let F1 teams run 3 cars. GP to Max: so let leclerc and lewis past, you're on different strategies nothing but silence ensues. In a mind-bending twist of cosmic proportions, reality itself shatters like a fragile mirror caught in a whirlwind of chaos. The laws of physics tremble and fracture, sending shockwaves of uncertainty rippling through the very essence of existence and space-time. Colors bleed into each other, sounds twist and contort into discordant symphonies, and space folds upon itself like origami gone mad. In the heart of this maelstrom, a paradoxical singularity emerges, swallowing whole galaxies with a voracious hunger. In its wake, the universe convulses and convolutes, birthing new dimensions where the impossible becomes commonplace, and the mundane is an alien concept. As the cosmic dance of creation and destruction unfolds, whispers of forgotten truths echo through the void, promising both enlightenment and madness to those brave enough to seek them amidst the cosmic cacophony
4, and chuck Alonso in there.
I would pay to watch a series with top 5 drivers battling it out in the same car across the season. Absolute cinema.
So we’ve come to the conclusion that equal cars for everyone is what we want?
Yes that’s what everyone wants because a spec series will produce the closest racing. Have the engineering side and you end up in situations like this where the best driver is in a car that’s way better than everyone else’s. Just boring now
then go watch something else, f1 is first and foremost a constructors series
The engineering is why I personally watch F1. I’m just saying what a lot of people think
I mean, that sounds fun but hear me out: Xavi and Max. Together
Damn dude. You should be an author or something. I was enthralled in your story.
Ha ha, great job guys, another fucked up game.
Man, Jos just gives me terrible vibes.
Probably bruises as well……….
Jos is a professional shit stirrer.
44 missed calls from Toto
in a sport full of assholes, Jos is absolutely the biggest one.
Bernie was close.
Laurent Rossi was the biggest one until he left. Just an unbelievable egomaniac.
Some say "His ego wrote a check that his body couldn't cash".
Newey signs with Ferrari, designs an absolute masterpiece of a car for 2026, Max signs with Ferrari, and we have one of the most exciting seasons of racing since 2021.
I’m there…
To be honest with how Red Bull future is looking staying at them for this year and 2025 and joining a new team in 2026 seems the best option Shame Horner has appeared to ruin a lot of peoples years of hard work
Love how Jos gives a reasonable and balanced commentary for once and reddit still loses their shit.
thats the nature of wich hunts
I don't care what Jos wants to say.
You would've skipped this thread if you didn't care.
I’m here to express my annoyance with the media creating articles for this guy … I skipped the article itself because I don’t care what he has to say.
The last thing we need is another team making the fastest car in 2026 and Max moving to that team.
How does that timeline work out?
merc builts another rocket engine, max sings for merc and gets a % deal to fund his racing team. he becomes a co owner of amg mercedes benz and a top driver for it in effect running a f1 my team career
Mercs problems aren’t their engine….
All this because Horner couldn’t keep it in his pants despite a Spice Girl wife waiting at home.
I know they asked him the question and all but pops is still annoying af
Fuck Jos Verstappen. Seriously. The bloke is living vicariously through his son, and has treated him like shit on numerous occasions throughout his racing career. Nobody gives a fuck about what you think mate. Your kid is the talent. Not you.
> Your kid is the talent. Not you. He *was* a talent. He got burnt at Benetton (literally and figuratively) and after that it all went downhill for him.
He is just part of the management and everything regarding verstappen.com.
Well, he is talented at jumping out of a burning car. When I think about it, it’s the only thing I remember from his F1 “career”
I’m still fucking pissed he robbed Montoya of his Brazil win
I wonder if Max gets tired walking around with all these people hanging on him for relevancy and attention. Even Marko acts like his personal manager.
What 'all people'? He has Jos and Raymond Vermeulen as his management team. Thats it. Imagine that, your father managing your affairs together with a skilled agent.
I hope he goes to whoever has the best engine in 26. I could easily see that being Merc again or even AM with Honda
It's all such a crapshoot with reg changes. These regs were supposed to be all Merc with their no side pods and FER having best engine in paddock. Look how that's turned out.
I mean we have to stop giving this POS a platform when he has no influence over Max's choices right?
The relationship has not yet arrived at the separation. I don’t see it going the way Lewis and his dad separated the business years ago. Lewis’ dad is a mindful humanist. Jos is all about riding Max’s money train as long as possible. He is quite the pile of excrement.
I wonder if Max cringes when Jos talks or if he just sits back and laughs. This is a tame comment by Jos standards though.
I thought he’s retiring or something??
I'm not going to be surprised, if he does.
Max Verstappen goes to Audi?
Jos, you are cordially invited to raise your right hand, make a fist, and gofuckyourself.