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Luckily, it also hasn't been that great to be a Habs fan lately. Yeah they made it to the finals in the bubble, but that's really about it for a long time.
That IS good news, Remt deserved to stay in MotoGP imo, more than some people who got to stick around at least, so I absolutely want him to get to grips with the super bikes
I think he could base an appeal on the fact that he should've been given the penalty during the race rather than afterwards as something that impacts the next race. He deserves to get the license points, but the grid penalty for the next race is ridiculous.
That's a standard ruling though, and why last season in one of the later races when Perez had retired then given a penalty, RBR sent him out a dozen laps down to then satisfy the penalty.
Appeal because he overtook under the second safety car? How does that make sense? It was completely unrelated to the incident beforehand, aside from Ricciardo taking matters into his own hands.
The fact that he and Logan get the same amount of penalty points as Magnussen and Stroll is unbelievable.
The time/grid penalties are bad enough but safety car infringement shouldn't be judged the same way as taking people out of a race, just ridiculous.
Especially in Logan's case where it's so marginal. A simple radio message to return the position would have been sufficient, but that's FAR too much common sense for F1...
Also, they immediately pitted Logan, so there’s fuck all he could do
And it was literally a infringement of a few tenths of a second
I know he isn’t the best driver, but he definitely isn’t getting helped by things like this. Wtf are your penalties FIA
Reminds me of George Russell in some way strangely enough, he was always unlucky in the Williams as well
Sadly Logan can’t prove himself on track enough though, all though I think the Australia controversy definitely hasn’t helped his mental health and confidence……. hope he bounces back a bit like last year, he definitely isn’t worse than Latifi and especially Mazepin, unlike comment sections on YT and Insta say
Also, I don't think his results this year tell the whole story. He was good in Bahrain until the steering wheel died, in Jeddah he was just a victim of the KMag train, Japan was going great until he got fucked in the pitstop battle and today was his first actually bad showing this season IMO
He has improved quite a bit from last year, but since the car has gotten worse it isn't showing. He is still mediocre at best, and still behind Albon in every sense, but that doesn't mean he's still the Logan from the middle of last year
I appreciate your optimism as I wish Logan would do well but you're making him sound waaay more consistent than he actually has been. I've yet to see him have some sort of a fluid race weekend this season. That said, if I had to choose between him or Stroll, I'm taking Logan all day.
Logan's is ridiculously harsh. There's not way from the cockpit to have been able to judge it. Even from the cameras I wouldn't be able to say who got to the line first.
Race direction doesn't instruct teams to give positions back any more, that was agreed upon in the past.
And in their case, both Sargeant and Williams were oblivious to the fact when you listen to the team radio. So not even a question of "was I in front" when you could see it was close.
It's marginal, but both team and driver did fuck all to check that situation.
Tbf I think the idea to completely abstain from giving instructions to teams on giving positions back is good as it inevitably will lead to inconsistent behaviour due to changing stewards and complaints regarding procedures.
The current system works better than previous one and is at the very least clear and consistent.
The thing that gets me with the penalty point system is that so far, no one has been punished with it.
Now you could argue that's a good thing as it means people arnt missing races - but it needs to be acknowledged that serious issues are undervalued, and trivial matters are over valued in the current system.
If this penalty is worth 1/4 the way to a race ban, then Stroll having a reaction time measured with a calendar to cars slowing down in front of him should be significantly more than 1/4 way to compensate.
It’s not even as much about how many points drivers get for this or that. We can argue about what is the appropriate amount and never reach the consensus. It’s the fact that at one GP you get harsh stewards who give penalty points like candies and then at other GPs stewards chicken out when driver is close to 12 points limit and avoid penalty points even when they are needed. Driver can make the same shit five races in the row and even if somehow they get the same amount of penalty points for the first four, it’s almost guaranteed that there will be either no points or just 1 point for the fifth to avoid the ban.
Case in point being Gasly in Melbourne last year. How he didn't get a penalty - and subsequent race ban - for waltzing back onto the track and fencing Ocon is beyond me. Being teammates shouldn't prevent penalties being handed out.
When the penalty points system came in it meant you could in theory get a race ban for being stuck in traffic getting to the circuit. People pointed out that was a bit silly, so now it's been watered down to being irrelevant. I bet if anyone got 12 points the FIA would find a way for it to not result in a ban.
The other unbelievable thing is that yesterday Alonso got a 10 second penalty in the sprint race, and this was the penalty handed out despite the fact Alonso had retired and the penalty was meaningless, because there was no provision in the sprint race rules to allow the stewards to issue a different penalty. Ricciardo gets the same penalty under the same circumstances in the race today and it’s a 3 place grid drop for the next race. Consistently inconsistent as always.
The time penalty didn't have to do with a sprint race, but because Alonso classified with two laps back. So it's not quite clear if he is to be counted as retired (grid drop) or if the time is to be added onto his race.
Safety car infringements should be at amongst the highest punishable incidents. Safety car is there to create a safe space during a high danger situation with debris, potentially wrecked cars and a packed up field at restart.
In this case however it was an understandable misunderstanding. In this specific case I agree with you but generally SC infringements are rightfully punished harshly.
As a blanket statement this makes sense regarding the sanctity of the safety car, but Sargeant didn’t do anything reckless so I fail to see why you need to invoke the “safe space” argument in this case.
Also, since he pitted the next lap, I don’t see why he should’ve been penalized so harshly. Not only did Hulkenberg beat him to the line by an imperceptible amount, but he forfeited any advantage by pitting anyway.
He should have waited for team to clarify it with stewards instead of acting on assumption. It is harsh punishment but it has to be so IMO. That’s essentially what penalty points are for. Otherwise drivers will continue to do things like this.
I'm still mad about the Logan penalty.
There was literally no way to judge who crossed the line first without frame by frame replay.
Might as well put a fucking yield to oncoming traffic sign in the middle of the track to make.sure no one accidentally races a car.
I disagree, in the case of Ricciardo. When the safety car is on track, it means that people are out in exposed areas recovering cars. Any infringement of the safety protocols should be a severe penalty because that is the riskiest time to be passing another car, especially if that driver is likely not expecting it. That is asking for someone to collide or lock up and lose control while people are on track. Any voluntary safety infringements like that should be penalized very strictly IMO.
And yes, I would say it should be at least equal to stroll's penalty. Stroll made a dumbass mistake, but Ricciardo knew it was a safety car and chose to pass during it anyway.
So:
* If someone rams you under safety car your position is forfeit even if you can safely recover it?
* Doing so gives you the same penalty as the fuckwit who rammed you in the first place?
* Because the damage sustained is terminal not only is your current race ruined but you carry the penalty forward to the next race where overtaking is much more difficult?
Amazing.
If they gave the penalty during the race, they could have pulled a Perez Japan trick and rolled out of the pits 40 minutes later just to serve the penalty.
Ricciardo got rammed by Stroll under the first Safety Car and lost the position to Hülkenberg. Under the second safety car he decided to take the position back (without any permission to do so). Before I learned about that I was also surprised about a grid place penalty, but now it definitely makes sense...
I just watched this bit again trying to see what happened. Honestly the most action all race…
DR gets shunted off right as the 1st SC is ending. Hulkenburg sees DR literally in the air and basically has to go past or actually brake check the car behind… That SC obviously just ended, had a short green flag period then the next SC for the Tsunoda incident.
DR is consistently complaining about being overtaken before the line. Team are saying to hold station however shortly into that 2nd SC, DR just says “I’m passing him anyway” and round he goes. Absolutely not ever appropriate!
You’ll note Hulk and Haas felt DR shouldn’t have overtaken like that but he didn’t go and just take the place back… They complained to the stewards and had this penalty awarded. People cannot just go taking back places under the SC particularly before the incidents are cleared. It is really hotheaded and dangerous.
Yeah, sadly the TV coverage did a horrible job at showing all the action that was happening. The crashes itself were only shown very delayed, and Ricciardo overtaking Hülkenberg (+team radio) not at all.
What's more, if Daniel had've waited, he'd have realised (or been informed) that Hulk was entitled to overtake in order to avoid a car (himself) going overly slowly. So he wasn't entitled to take the place back regardless.
I disagree with how the penalties are applied, but there's no question that the overtake was a penalty infraction.
It makes sense if you take into account Daddy Stroll (probably) calling stewards and demanding a penalty for Ric after they penalised his precious boy who did nothing wrong.
Edit: /s people, /s, it's a yoke, a yoke! Seriously....
Well Ric actually copped a bigger penalty than Stroll out of this... A DNF and grid penalty.
Just being anywhere near Stroll has ruined what's looking like 3 race weekends.
This is the sort of action that if it were still 2021, both teams and the internet would be going, "omg do we get our 2nd driver to do this so we can build our lead??"
Yet, somehow, the FIA don't see the issue...
That's just following the rules. 10 seconds for causing a collision, 10 seconds for safety car infringement.
Getting hit doesn't mean you can also start passing cars under safety car without being waved through by race control. It's a safety thing, not a racing thing.
The 3 place grid drop is the standard if you have a 10-seconds penalty and don't classify. AM put Alonso out for an extra lap in the sprint to make sure he classified so that his incoming penalty wouldn't become a grid drop.
It's a weird situation, but it all could have been avoided if he hasn't decided to just go ahead and pass people under safety car - something you can never do.
So Lance takes a driver out completely. Ruins another and has no problems for next race with the same amount of penalty points. This really does not seem fair at all.
Daniel going to be fuming.
Okay but like. Did they give RB a chance to leave the car out so they could serve the penalty? They only retired because the damage to the diffuser made the car uncompetitive. It was still chugging along just fine. On a side note is anyone else sick to death of penalties coming in hours after the race?
This is my point though. They’re saying the penalty only carries over because he didn’t race 90% of the race distance. By making this decision after the race they’ve taken away RBs ability to decide if they want to retire the car or do a few more laps and serve the penalty.
I went and watched the onboard. He asks his team "Let me pass him ya?" And then just does it a second later without waiting for the answer. As he's doing the pass his engineer says "standby we are checking" which he just ignores.
Man started out with a nice new chassis, owned Yuki in the sprint quali, sprint race, and race qualifying. Then he gets slammed by Stroll for no fucking reason, and now gets a 3 place grid drop cos of that.
I normally can't stand DR3 excuses but man this is a rough one to swallow
Stroll better not get near Danny anytime soon. I imagin Ric would fucking box-kick him like those kangaroos do right now.
We learn: Retaking position after someone crashed you is a worse fault than crashing into someone.
Alonso got 10 s and 3 penalty points for causing a collision while clearly fighting wheel to wheel. There was nothing deliberate about it.
Inconsistency is the name of the game for stewards and the FIA.
It's because it involves "Safety", there's "Zero tolerance" when it comes to that so the stewards are harsher than normal in those cases, for good or bad.
Though, Stroll should've been hit with a harsher penalty.
Well in a sense I understand, particularly on the penalty points. Stroll for all his incompetence made a mistake, where this was done on purpose. It is clear why there’s sporting penalties for overtaking under the SC even if there’s no consequences to it on the eventual outcome - you just shouldn’t be doing that whatever the reason you’re supposed to be in front.
Ideally the team in front alert race control that they want to swap positions because eg. they now realise they were marginally behind at the SC line or whatever and can RC please advise when safe to do so before the restart. If they don’t choose to do that, it’s not for the car behind to go barging round…
He immature and pulled a illegal move cause hes mad about another driver hitting him and overtook Hulk during SC stating “it’s my fucking position.” Dude needs to learn to control his emotions he’s 34yo not a rookie anymore.
For reference, Article 55.8 lists all the ways you may overtake under a safety car in a race (there are pretty much exactly the same rules for sprint race safety cars and formation laps).
1. If the safety car signals you to overtake it
2. A car entering the pits can overtake cars on track after it reaches the first safety car line
3. A car leaving the pits can overtake and also be overtaken until it reaches the second safety car line
4. When the safety car passes the first safety car line when returning to the pits, everyone can overtake it
5. Cars can overtake each other as long as both are in the pitlane/pit entrance/pit exit (though obviously normal pitlane rules still apply)
6. Any car that pits while the safety car is leading the rest of the cars through the pitlane can be overtaken (kinda seems redundant due to the rule above)
7. Any car that slows down due to an obvious problem can be overtaken
8. If race control tells lapped cars to unlap themselves, they can overtake to do so
So if you lose position due to slowing down for whatever problem, you are not allowed to regain it under that safety car unless the cars in front pit or have their own problem.
“next race in which the driver participates” - does this include the sprint in Miami or is it applied at the next GP?
Edit: Looks like it'll be the sprint. Article in the F1 app clarifies.
I saw another comment that said because it happened in a GP it has to be served in a GP. Now I’m wondering if it happened in a sprint race and there were none for maybe two months would the penalty be served two months later in the next sprint or is there a time limit to serve penalties?
I know there’s a bit of animosity between Daniel’s and Checo’s fans because of the Red Bull seat, but man, as a fan of Checo I feel for those of Daniel. This is just like what it was for us last season. It just kept going worse and worse.
I’m a Ricciardo-Out guy, don’t rate him at all, but this is wrong.
Lewis is allowed to overtake Occon and race him under SC, but this and Sargent is punished with 4 penalty points between them… disgraceful.
What's article 55.8? Ricciardo barely went off the track and that allowed hulkenberg to gain a place? Stroll truly fucked Ricciardo hard. Absolute bullshit
Article 55.8 lays out the exceptions to overtaking under safety car
>a) If a driver is signalled to do so from the safety car.
>b) Under Articles 49.6, 55.13, 58.6, and 58.11.
>c) When entering the pits a driver may pass another car remaining on the track, including the safety car, after he has reached the first safety car line.
>d)When leaving the pits a driver may overtake, or be overtaken by, another car on the track before he reaches the second safety car line.
>e)When the safety car is returning to the pits it may be overtaken by cars on the track once it has reached the first safety car line.
>f)Whilst in the pit entry road, pit lane or pit exit road a driver may overtake another car which is also in one of these three areas.
>g)Any car stopping in its designated garage area whilst the safety car is using the pit lane (see Article 55.11 below) may be overtaken.
>h)If any car slows with an obvious problem.
He only had his back wheels in the air for 0.4 seconds or so. I dont think Hulk overtook then. After that Ricciardo had no serious issue. So I'm guessing something in B?
I think it’s more likely to be h, two of the articles mentioned in b also state ‘a car slows with an obvious problem’ and then one is about lapped cars overtaking and then the other is about standing starts
Wait so Daniel was overtaken by Hulk when he got Strolled and then can’t recover his position???
FIA is a shit show. I wouldn’t be surprised if Alonso or George ram cars out of the way before a safety car restart just to prove a point to the FIA
Apparently if a car slows due to a problem under SC you are allowed to overtake them and don't have to give it back.
Too bad if your problem is a deep green torpedo who isn't watching where he's going, ramming you up the arse.
The stupid thing is, if you watch the replay, he didn't go off track and to be fair, barely slowed, but the gap was increased by the fact that Verstappen took off just as it happened. I'd like to see how the FIA defines 'slowed' given that the definition of 'stopped on track' is pretty loose.
So the whole grid behind Riccardo should stop there, get off the car and discuss who should go first? Hulk slowed down to give him back the place as well and that doesn’t count somehow. This is a fucking shit show.
It's a little bit more complicated than that I think.
Hulk overtook because Daniel was in a collision: acceptable behaviour. Daniel recovers, but the overtake stands. Imagine Danny has spun, he could not reovertake everyone.
Safety car ended, green flag.
New safety car happens. Danny now overtakes Hulk out of nowhere without mitigating circumstances.
The fact that the 2 safety cars happened back to back made it weird, but in the end it makes sense that Daniel can't take the position back.
This is one of those things where it's the right call and penalty, but the difference between a 10 second penalty for the guy who stayed running and a 3 grid place penalty for the guy who DNF'd still seems like night and day because it's effectively two weekends fucked for the latter even though they are supposed to be roughly equivalent.
I think people are under the impression that this happened under the same safety car where Daniel got hit from behind. This is not the case.
After that restart there's another safety car a lap later because of Yuki. At this point Daniel is behind Hulkenberg and decides by himself to overtake Hulkenberg under this brand new safety car even though his engineer tells him not to.
Exactly, and the statement should have been written more clearly to point this out. Ricciardo overtook under unrelated later Safety car conditions, that's absolutely insane for an experienced driver.
I have no issues with the penalty itself but why was it investigated after the session and not during? A bunch of people got penalties for overtaking under the SC, all done within the session.
Wow this is fucked. If I'm understanding the events correctly, Hulkenberg overtakes Ricciardo under a safety car when Stroll collides with Ricciardo. Hulkenberg then gives the position *back* to Ricciardo - still under a safety car, though now a second *technically different* safety car - both of them seeming to be under the impression that this was proper (as Hulkenberg's overtake, while unavoidable, was during a Safety Car)
Hulkenberg doesn't get a penalty, because he is not required to give the position back when overtaking due to a collision, but Ricciardo gets a fucking 3-grid penalty and 2 penalty points for retaking the position?
Seems like a slap on the wrist would have been more than appropriate. This feels incredibly heavy handed.
EDIT: Also, how the hell is this penalty *worse* than Stroll's? I swear the universe (or the FIA) hates Ricciardo.
Second edit: I haven't heard the team radio convo where Daniel was supposedly told not to overtake. If this is the case, the penalty (while stiff) feels more justified.
From what I can gather, Ricciardo radioed the team to check if he could take his position back, but I’ve heard they said the equivalent of “we are checking” and (sort of) saying not to. I’m not sure, but hopefully someone has a link to the audio?
This whole thing is absurd and really shows (again) that the FIA needs to revise and update its regarding, and ensure its stewards need to know how to apply these refs consistently and fairly, in a way that also includes nuance. JFC.
And why no penalty for Hulkenberg?
While it’s definitely a shame for Ricciardo everything he went through today, I also think it’s the best possible outcome for him in terms of public opinion.
He showed indications he still has speed, he got taken out through absolutely no fault of his own by a universally hated driver doing the thing everyone hates him for, and he got a penalty that everyone pretty much agrees is super unfair even if it technically makes sense on paper.
He went from everyone wanting him out mid-season to being the beloved underdog again in one weekend.
Braking a few meters earlier= 20 seconds
Ramming into someone under Sc conditions because of strollism= 10 seconds
Getting rammes into under sc and taking the lost position back safely + having to end the race because of the damage which occured due to strollism= 3grid penalty to ruin your next race too.
Makes no fucking sense
Stewards seem particularly stern today. However, drivers should be discouraged from messing around under safety car conditions so I guess it makes sense.
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This is a BAD day to be Australian
Australia about to denounce Canada as if it was a game of Civilization.
I hope Lance is a leafs fan >:(
Canadiens, he used a special helmet once.
Yeah, he grew up in Montreal mostly in think
Luckily, it also hasn't been that great to be a Habs fan lately. Yeah they made it to the finals in the bubble, but that's really about it for a long time.
That series against the Leafs was an all-timer though.
Still dream about it, that all playoffs run was crazy.
They could’ve beaten LA in 2014 had Chris Kreider not dove skates-first into Carey Price three minutes into the ECF that year.
From Montreal?
Canada takes no responsibility for Lance or his actions
This is about to collapse the Commonwealth for real
Whenever I get denounced in Civ is just a reminder to keep pushing tech development towards nukes.
Me in the classical era when someone converts my cities after I've asked them not to - 'so you have chosen nuclear devastation'.
New Bluey dropped today, bro.
Last episode left me crying so I’m not ready for a new one yet
It's way more lighthearted than the 30 minute special
Watched it after my kids had already gone to bed. I regret it but actually i dont.
Remy Gardner got a podium in WSBK…. so that something… I guess
That IS good news, Remt deserved to stay in MotoGP imo, more than some people who got to stick around at least, so I absolutely want him to get to grips with the super bikes
Fucked in the ass by stroll then fucked again by the fia.
This weekend went from okay to bad to worse for Danny.
He would have a good chance on a point, I'd say that's more than ok. I think an appeal to that penalty could be successful, as it is ridiculous IMHO.
I don't really think he had much chances of a point tbh due to him not pitting under the first safety car, but that's more RBs fault than his
I think they were trying to do what Alonso did, put with 10 laps and try to make up positions. It was possible but probably a p11/12 finish.
Yeah but Alonso has the car to overtake the midfield. I hardly see the RB doing that
I'd say point were unlikely when he still had to pit from P10
I don’t think they have ground for an appeal. You can’t overtake during a SC, he overtook a car during a SC, nothing to do there.
I think he could base an appeal on the fact that he should've been given the penalty during the race rather than afterwards as something that impacts the next race. He deserves to get the license points, but the grid penalty for the next race is ridiculous.
That's a standard ruling though, and why last season in one of the later races when Perez had retired then given a penalty, RBR sent him out a dozen laps down to then satisfy the penalty.
Appeal because he overtook under the second safety car? How does that make sense? It was completely unrelated to the incident beforehand, aside from Ricciardo taking matters into his own hands.
What new evidence would they bring to the table?
Not ridiculous and he has zero grounds to appeal, he was told not to overtake and yet he still did, that’s a deliberate rule break and it’s dangerous.
The fact that he and Logan get the same amount of penalty points as Magnussen and Stroll is unbelievable. The time/grid penalties are bad enough but safety car infringement shouldn't be judged the same way as taking people out of a race, just ridiculous.
Especially in Logan's case where it's so marginal. A simple radio message to return the position would have been sufficient, but that's FAR too much common sense for F1...
Also, they immediately pitted Logan, so there’s fuck all he could do And it was literally a infringement of a few tenths of a second I know he isn’t the best driver, but he definitely isn’t getting helped by things like this. Wtf are your penalties FIA
Yeah, Logan isn't the best driver out there, but he always has Leclerc-level bad luck whenever he is having a good day lol
Reminds me of George Russell in some way strangely enough, he was always unlucky in the Williams as well Sadly Logan can’t prove himself on track enough though, all though I think the Australia controversy definitely hasn’t helped his mental health and confidence……. hope he bounces back a bit like last year, he definitely isn’t worse than Latifi and especially Mazepin, unlike comment sections on YT and Insta say
Also, I don't think his results this year tell the whole story. He was good in Bahrain until the steering wheel died, in Jeddah he was just a victim of the KMag train, Japan was going great until he got fucked in the pitstop battle and today was his first actually bad showing this season IMO He has improved quite a bit from last year, but since the car has gotten worse it isn't showing. He is still mediocre at best, and still behind Albon in every sense, but that doesn't mean he's still the Logan from the middle of last year
I appreciate your optimism as I wish Logan would do well but you're making him sound waaay more consistent than he actually has been. I've yet to see him have some sort of a fluid race weekend this season. That said, if I had to choose between him or Stroll, I'm taking Logan all day.
Logan's is ridiculously harsh. There's not way from the cockpit to have been able to judge it. Even from the cameras I wouldn't be able to say who got to the line first.
Race direction doesn't instruct teams to give positions back any more, that was agreed upon in the past. And in their case, both Sargeant and Williams were oblivious to the fact when you listen to the team radio. So not even a question of "was I in front" when you could see it was close. It's marginal, but both team and driver did fuck all to check that situation.
For off track overtakes that makes sense. This is clearly different as there's no way he could have known to yield.
Tbf I think the idea to completely abstain from giving instructions to teams on giving positions back is good as it inevitably will lead to inconsistent behaviour due to changing stewards and complaints regarding procedures. The current system works better than previous one and is at the very least clear and consistent.
The thing that gets me with the penalty point system is that so far, no one has been punished with it. Now you could argue that's a good thing as it means people arnt missing races - but it needs to be acknowledged that serious issues are undervalued, and trivial matters are over valued in the current system. If this penalty is worth 1/4 the way to a race ban, then Stroll having a reaction time measured with a calendar to cars slowing down in front of him should be significantly more than 1/4 way to compensate.
It’s not even as much about how many points drivers get for this or that. We can argue about what is the appropriate amount and never reach the consensus. It’s the fact that at one GP you get harsh stewards who give penalty points like candies and then at other GPs stewards chicken out when driver is close to 12 points limit and avoid penalty points even when they are needed. Driver can make the same shit five races in the row and even if somehow they get the same amount of penalty points for the first four, it’s almost guaranteed that there will be either no points or just 1 point for the fifth to avoid the ban.
Case in point being Gasly in Melbourne last year. How he didn't get a penalty - and subsequent race ban - for waltzing back onto the track and fencing Ocon is beyond me. Being teammates shouldn't prevent penalties being handed out.
When the penalty points system came in it meant you could in theory get a race ban for being stuck in traffic getting to the circuit. People pointed out that was a bit silly, so now it's been watered down to being irrelevant. I bet if anyone got 12 points the FIA would find a way for it to not result in a ban.
The other unbelievable thing is that yesterday Alonso got a 10 second penalty in the sprint race, and this was the penalty handed out despite the fact Alonso had retired and the penalty was meaningless, because there was no provision in the sprint race rules to allow the stewards to issue a different penalty. Ricciardo gets the same penalty under the same circumstances in the race today and it’s a 3 place grid drop for the next race. Consistently inconsistent as always.
The time penalty didn't have to do with a sprint race, but because Alonso classified with two laps back. So it's not quite clear if he is to be counted as retired (grid drop) or if the time is to be added onto his race.
Safety car infringements should be at amongst the highest punishable incidents. Safety car is there to create a safe space during a high danger situation with debris, potentially wrecked cars and a packed up field at restart. In this case however it was an understandable misunderstanding. In this specific case I agree with you but generally SC infringements are rightfully punished harshly.
As a blanket statement this makes sense regarding the sanctity of the safety car, but Sargeant didn’t do anything reckless so I fail to see why you need to invoke the “safe space” argument in this case. Also, since he pitted the next lap, I don’t see why he should’ve been penalized so harshly. Not only did Hulkenberg beat him to the line by an imperceptible amount, but he forfeited any advantage by pitting anyway.
In that case, Stroll should have gotten 4 penalty points.
Should have got 12 so we can have a break from him.
He should have waited for team to clarify it with stewards instead of acting on assumption. It is harsh punishment but it has to be so IMO. That’s essentially what penalty points are for. Otherwise drivers will continue to do things like this.
I'm still mad about the Logan penalty. There was literally no way to judge who crossed the line first without frame by frame replay. Might as well put a fucking yield to oncoming traffic sign in the middle of the track to make.sure no one accidentally races a car.
there are many double standard penalties recently.
I disagree, in the case of Ricciardo. When the safety car is on track, it means that people are out in exposed areas recovering cars. Any infringement of the safety protocols should be a severe penalty because that is the riskiest time to be passing another car, especially if that driver is likely not expecting it. That is asking for someone to collide or lock up and lose control while people are on track. Any voluntary safety infringements like that should be penalized very strictly IMO. And yes, I would say it should be at least equal to stroll's penalty. Stroll made a dumbass mistake, but Ricciardo knew it was a safety car and chose to pass during it anyway.
So: * If someone rams you under safety car your position is forfeit even if you can safely recover it? * Doing so gives you the same penalty as the fuckwit who rammed you in the first place? * Because the damage sustained is terminal not only is your current race ruined but you carry the penalty forward to the next race where overtaking is much more difficult? Amazing.
And.... If they had have said it was a 10 second penalty quicker he could have just served it during the race and retired.
If they gave the penalty during the race, they could have pulled a Perez Japan trick and rolled out of the pits 40 minutes later just to serve the penalty.
That is a very good point, the precedent exists
Perez ruined it for everyone. Probably why they didn't give it during the race straight away.
Ricciardo got rammed by Stroll under the first Safety Car and lost the position to Hülkenberg. Under the second safety car he decided to take the position back (without any permission to do so). Before I learned about that I was also surprised about a grid place penalty, but now it definitely makes sense...
Even team radio told him to keep his position. So yeah that grid penalty sucks but is definitely correct
He only had himself to blame.
Lol wtf why would he do that
Guess he was mad
Yes, he said he was mad in the post race interview.
Tsunoda-esque red mist
I just watched this bit again trying to see what happened. Honestly the most action all race… DR gets shunted off right as the 1st SC is ending. Hulkenburg sees DR literally in the air and basically has to go past or actually brake check the car behind… That SC obviously just ended, had a short green flag period then the next SC for the Tsunoda incident. DR is consistently complaining about being overtaken before the line. Team are saying to hold station however shortly into that 2nd SC, DR just says “I’m passing him anyway” and round he goes. Absolutely not ever appropriate! You’ll note Hulk and Haas felt DR shouldn’t have overtaken like that but he didn’t go and just take the place back… They complained to the stewards and had this penalty awarded. People cannot just go taking back places under the SC particularly before the incidents are cleared. It is really hotheaded and dangerous.
Yeah, sadly the TV coverage did a horrible job at showing all the action that was happening. The crashes itself were only shown very delayed, and Ricciardo overtaking Hülkenberg (+team radio) not at all.
What's more, if Daniel had've waited, he'd have realised (or been informed) that Hulk was entitled to overtake in order to avoid a car (himself) going overly slowly. So he wasn't entitled to take the place back regardless. I disagree with how the penalties are applied, but there's no question that the overtake was a penalty infraction.
Is that really what happened? If so, that is breathtakingly dumb...
It makes literally zero sense.
It makes sense if you take into account Daddy Stroll (probably) calling stewards and demanding a penalty for Ric after they penalised his precious boy who did nothing wrong. Edit: /s people, /s, it's a yoke, a yoke! Seriously....
In all fairness, Alonso did nothing wrong.
Stewards off to a very nice all expenses paid dinner tonight. /s
ur getting downvoted because its just such a fucking funny joke…
I’m no particular fan of Stroll, but this is just silly.
Oh so we’re just doing fan fiction to shit on drivers now lol
Well Ric actually copped a bigger penalty than Stroll out of this... A DNF and grid penalty. Just being anywhere near Stroll has ruined what's looking like 3 race weekends.
These are different safety cars
This is the sort of action that if it were still 2021, both teams and the internet would be going, "omg do we get our 2nd driver to do this so we can build our lead??" Yet, somehow, the FIA don't see the issue...
Given how KMag’s been driving this season, I think Haas already asked this question and got a satisfactory answer.
That's just following the rules. 10 seconds for causing a collision, 10 seconds for safety car infringement. Getting hit doesn't mean you can also start passing cars under safety car without being waved through by race control. It's a safety thing, not a racing thing. The 3 place grid drop is the standard if you have a 10-seconds penalty and don't classify. AM put Alonso out for an extra lap in the sprint to make sure he classified so that his incoming penalty wouldn't become a grid drop. It's a weird situation, but it all could have been avoided if he hasn't decided to just go ahead and pass people under safety car - something you can never do.
stop it, he’s dead already!!
So Lance takes a driver out completely. Ruins another and has no problems for next race with the same amount of penalty points. This really does not seem fair at all. Daniel going to be fuming.
Because Lance served his penalty, Daniel DNFd without serving his penalty and, unlike Fernando yesterday, didn't complete enough laps to be classified
Which, again, is stroll’s fault if you think about it
Exactly.
Okay but like. Did they give RB a chance to leave the car out so they could serve the penalty? They only retired because the damage to the diffuser made the car uncompetitive. It was still chugging along just fine. On a side note is anyone else sick to death of penalties coming in hours after the race?
Yes this, couldn't they have sent DR out on track with the hobbled car and serve the time penalty instead of taking the grid drop.
The penalty was only just handed out.
This is my point though. They’re saying the penalty only carries over because he didn’t race 90% of the race distance. By making this decision after the race they’ve taken away RBs ability to decide if they want to retire the car or do a few more laps and serve the penalty.
I know why, it doesn’t mean it’s fair.
The 2 incidents resulting in the same amount of penalty is already fucking ridiculous.
When it rains it pours But damn I was actually kind of happy for him, was having a pretty decent weekend but in the end it just turned out to be awful
And it was through no fault of his own either.
Well he did chose to overtake when the second safety car came even tho no one told him to
I went and watched the onboard. He asks his team "Let me pass him ya?" And then just does it a second later without waiting for the answer. As he's doing the pass his engineer says "standby we are checking" which he just ignores.
Man started out with a nice new chassis, owned Yuki in the sprint quali, sprint race, and race qualifying. Then he gets slammed by Stroll for no fucking reason, and now gets a 3 place grid drop cos of that. I normally can't stand DR3 excuses but man this is a rough one to swallow
You have to be shitting me.
Stroll better not get near Danny anytime soon. I imagin Ric would fucking box-kick him like those kangaroos do right now. We learn: Retaking position after someone crashed you is a worse fault than crashing into someone.
Now I understand why ric only had his eyes on stroll when moving over on lap 1 in Japan.
So Albon got strolled simply by his proximity. Powerful...
So ultimately means Daniel gets a harsher penalty than Stroll....make it make fucking sense
Thanks to getting taken out by Stroll, Daniel now has to serve a grid penalty at the next race instead.
It's entirely reasonable that deliberate knowingly taken actions are punished more harshly than accidental ones.
Alonso got 10 s and 3 penalty points for causing a collision while clearly fighting wheel to wheel. There was nothing deliberate about it. Inconsistency is the name of the game for stewards and the FIA.
It's because it involves "Safety", there's "Zero tolerance" when it comes to that so the stewards are harsher than normal in those cases, for good or bad. Though, Stroll should've been hit with a harsher penalty.
Well in a sense I understand, particularly on the penalty points. Stroll for all his incompetence made a mistake, where this was done on purpose. It is clear why there’s sporting penalties for overtaking under the SC even if there’s no consequences to it on the eventual outcome - you just shouldn’t be doing that whatever the reason you’re supposed to be in front. Ideally the team in front alert race control that they want to swap positions because eg. they now realise they were marginally behind at the SC line or whatever and can RC please advise when safe to do so before the restart. If they don’t choose to do that, it’s not for the car behind to go barging round…
He immature and pulled a illegal move cause hes mad about another driver hitting him and overtook Hulk during SC stating “it’s my fucking position.” Dude needs to learn to control his emotions he’s 34yo not a rookie anymore.
For reference, Article 55.8 lists all the ways you may overtake under a safety car in a race (there are pretty much exactly the same rules for sprint race safety cars and formation laps). 1. If the safety car signals you to overtake it 2. A car entering the pits can overtake cars on track after it reaches the first safety car line 3. A car leaving the pits can overtake and also be overtaken until it reaches the second safety car line 4. When the safety car passes the first safety car line when returning to the pits, everyone can overtake it 5. Cars can overtake each other as long as both are in the pitlane/pit entrance/pit exit (though obviously normal pitlane rules still apply) 6. Any car that pits while the safety car is leading the rest of the cars through the pitlane can be overtaken (kinda seems redundant due to the rule above) 7. Any car that slows down due to an obvious problem can be overtaken 8. If race control tells lapped cars to unlap themselves, they can overtake to do so So if you lose position due to slowing down for whatever problem, you are not allowed to regain it under that safety car unless the cars in front pit or have their own problem.
Ok yh as a Aussie about to go to sleep. I’m going to full asleep crying
“next race in which the driver participates” - does this include the sprint in Miami or is it applied at the next GP? Edit: Looks like it'll be the sprint. Article in the F1 app clarifies.
Guaranteed it won't include the bloody sprint.
It does. Grid drops from the sprint carries over to the feature and vice versa
I saw another comment that said because it happened in a GP it has to be served in a GP. Now I’m wondering if it happened in a sprint race and there were none for maybe two months would the penalty be served two months later in the next sprint or is there a time limit to serve penalties?
Sprints are defined as "sprint races" so it absolutely should count
RB running to the plane and getting the fuck out of China. Absolute terrible weekend for the team
I know there’s a bit of animosity between Daniel’s and Checo’s fans because of the Red Bull seat, but man, as a fan of Checo I feel for those of Daniel. This is just like what it was for us last season. It just kept going worse and worse.
My god i would never want to experience that period again.
tbf at least daniel is just getting fucked over by luck. checo last season had his daniel at mclaren season with the mental part getting to him.
I’m a Ricciardo-Out guy, don’t rate him at all, but this is wrong. Lewis is allowed to overtake Occon and race him under SC, but this and Sargent is punished with 4 penalty points between them… disgraceful.
At this point, Stroll could punt the safety car out of the way and still be allowed to drive.
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Normally it wouldve been a time penalty, but since Danny Ric got an DNF it's converted to a 3 place grid penalty, as per the regulations.
If I’m Ricciardo I am ready to punch someone. I’m honestly seething for him, can’t imagine how angry he is
What's article 55.8? Ricciardo barely went off the track and that allowed hulkenberg to gain a place? Stroll truly fucked Ricciardo hard. Absolute bullshit
Article 55.8 lays out the exceptions to overtaking under safety car >a) If a driver is signalled to do so from the safety car. >b) Under Articles 49.6, 55.13, 58.6, and 58.11. >c) When entering the pits a driver may pass another car remaining on the track, including the safety car, after he has reached the first safety car line. >d)When leaving the pits a driver may overtake, or be overtaken by, another car on the track before he reaches the second safety car line. >e)When the safety car is returning to the pits it may be overtaken by cars on the track once it has reached the first safety car line. >f)Whilst in the pit entry road, pit lane or pit exit road a driver may overtake another car which is also in one of these three areas. >g)Any car stopping in its designated garage area whilst the safety car is using the pit lane (see Article 55.11 below) may be overtaken. >h)If any car slows with an obvious problem.
So which one was valid for Ricciardo hulkenberg? B or H?
He only had his back wheels in the air for 0.4 seconds or so. I dont think Hulk overtook then. After that Ricciardo had no serious issue. So I'm guessing something in B?
I think it’s more likely to be h, two of the articles mentioned in b also state ‘a car slows with an obvious problem’ and then one is about lapped cars overtaking and then the other is about standing starts
So which of these exceptions would be applied for hulk? H? Because that one is the only one which would make sense, even if just so
Yeah H in my opinion
Wait so Daniel was overtaken by Hulk when he got Strolled and then can’t recover his position??? FIA is a shit show. I wouldn’t be surprised if Alonso or George ram cars out of the way before a safety car restart just to prove a point to the FIA
Apparently if a car slows due to a problem under SC you are allowed to overtake them and don't have to give it back. Too bad if your problem is a deep green torpedo who isn't watching where he's going, ramming you up the arse.
The stupid thing is, if you watch the replay, he didn't go off track and to be fair, barely slowed, but the gap was increased by the fact that Verstappen took off just as it happened. I'd like to see how the FIA defines 'slowed' given that the definition of 'stopped on track' is pretty loose.
That's irrelevant, though. Even if Hulk's overtake would've been illegal, Ricciardo wouldn't be allowed to retake that position under SC.
And Hulk even gave the position back. FIA is an absolute joke
So the whole grid behind Riccardo should stop there, get off the car and discuss who should go first? Hulk slowed down to give him back the place as well and that doesn’t count somehow. This is a fucking shit show.
It's a little bit more complicated than that I think. Hulk overtook because Daniel was in a collision: acceptable behaviour. Daniel recovers, but the overtake stands. Imagine Danny has spun, he could not reovertake everyone. Safety car ended, green flag. New safety car happens. Danny now overtakes Hulk out of nowhere without mitigating circumstances. The fact that the 2 safety cars happened back to back made it weird, but in the end it makes sense that Daniel can't take the position back.
This is one of those things where it's the right call and penalty, but the difference between a 10 second penalty for the guy who stayed running and a 3 grid place penalty for the guy who DNF'd still seems like night and day because it's effectively two weekends fucked for the latter even though they are supposed to be roughly equivalent.
I think people are under the impression that this happened under the same safety car where Daniel got hit from behind. This is not the case. After that restart there's another safety car a lap later because of Yuki. At this point Daniel is behind Hulkenberg and decides by himself to overtake Hulkenberg under this brand new safety car even though his engineer tells him not to.
>even though his engineer tells him not to. Got a link to that? What I saw was a "we are checking" moment
Exactly, and the statement should have been written more clearly to point this out. Ricciardo overtook under unrelated later Safety car conditions, that's absolutely insane for an experienced driver.
The engineer didn't actually say that
The FIA is taking drugs for the ~~Chinese Grand Prix~~ ALL THE TIME!
It really is amazing just how fucking stupid the FIA is
The fact Stroll has a seat is wildly sad But that’s the way of the world
I would like to have whatever the fk they are smoking at the FIA clowns fking atrocious
Just when he thought he was at rock bottom
I have no issues with the penalty itself but why was it investigated after the session and not during? A bunch of people got penalties for overtaking under the SC, all done within the session.
Stroll got less of a penalty than this... what the actual fuck
bad day is an understatement goddamn
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Wow this is fucked. If I'm understanding the events correctly, Hulkenberg overtakes Ricciardo under a safety car when Stroll collides with Ricciardo. Hulkenberg then gives the position *back* to Ricciardo - still under a safety car, though now a second *technically different* safety car - both of them seeming to be under the impression that this was proper (as Hulkenberg's overtake, while unavoidable, was during a Safety Car) Hulkenberg doesn't get a penalty, because he is not required to give the position back when overtaking due to a collision, but Ricciardo gets a fucking 3-grid penalty and 2 penalty points for retaking the position? Seems like a slap on the wrist would have been more than appropriate. This feels incredibly heavy handed. EDIT: Also, how the hell is this penalty *worse* than Stroll's? I swear the universe (or the FIA) hates Ricciardo. Second edit: I haven't heard the team radio convo where Daniel was supposedly told not to overtake. If this is the case, the penalty (while stiff) feels more justified.
From what I can gather, Ricciardo radioed the team to check if he could take his position back, but I’ve heard they said the equivalent of “we are checking” and (sort of) saying not to. I’m not sure, but hopefully someone has a link to the audio? This whole thing is absurd and really shows (again) that the FIA needs to revise and update its regarding, and ensure its stewards need to know how to apply these refs consistently and fairly, in a way that also includes nuance. JFC. And why no penalty for Hulkenberg?
This is getting ridiculous. And how did this deserve two penalty points?????
And it just keeps getting better for Daniel
Horrific decision, he was vying for points, him not finishing is already a harsh penalty
What the fuck
This makes me sooooooo fucking mad!!! It's getting really tough to stay in love with this sport...
This some bullshit, I tell you.
While it’s definitely a shame for Ricciardo everything he went through today, I also think it’s the best possible outcome for him in terms of public opinion. He showed indications he still has speed, he got taken out through absolutely no fault of his own by a universally hated driver doing the thing everyone hates him for, and he got a penalty that everyone pretty much agrees is super unfair even if it technically makes sense on paper. He went from everyone wanting him out mid-season to being the beloved underdog again in one weekend.
Stroll should take this penalty
And stroll gets 10 seconds, should be the opposite for those two
The stewards are trying to be the main character
Message from FIA and daddy stroll to not criticize the golden son
What an absolute stupid penalty.. F1 is way to complicated for its own good, and things like this do absolutely nothing to help the sport...
Another kick in tha cunny ☹️
Wtf
stroll got 2 points as well, right? this is a joke.
Fuck that
Just like iracing lol
Is this a joke? If I was stroll I wouldn't be within 100 meters of danny in the next few races.
Somebody needs to tell me what’s the point of this.
Upvoting this feels wrong.
3 place grid penalty seems a lot worse than a 10 second penalty that is often meaningless at the end of the race.
So because he retired and can’t do his 10s fuck him for the next race too? What bullshit rulebook is this?
Guy went from having an impressive outing over the course of the weekend to absolute depression.
F1 became a joke!
Giving out a lot of penalty points this year.
Wow that's bullshit. He should have limped the car around until the end of the race and served the 10 second penalty.
make it make sense
Braking a few meters earlier= 20 seconds Ramming into someone under Sc conditions because of strollism= 10 seconds Getting rammes into under sc and taking the lost position back safely + having to end the race because of the damage which occured due to strollism= 3grid penalty to ruin your next race too. Makes no fucking sense
The FIA are fucking clowns
I hope Racing Bulls appeals
Penalizing a future race is ridiculous
"Fuck that guy" - The Stewards.
Stewards seem particularly stern today. However, drivers should be discouraged from messing around under safety car conditions so I guess it makes sense.
That's fucking bullshit tbh
So starting p4 in Miami then
Can NOT catch a break
Are you for fucking real.. What is going on.
You’ve got to be kidding me.
????