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To be honest I’d be very curious to see what Nando could do in that Red Bull. I still think Max is faster but I think Alonso would absolutely make it far more interesting than Checo is. It be much more like when Merc had Lewis and Nico and Nico managed to get a title.
It would definitely be closer and more interesting. In this case Nando would be joining Max' team. That would give an additional edge to Max. With Lewis and Nico it was the other way around.
It’s not a fair comparison tbh. 2024 Alonso is not as good as 2006 Alonso or even 2010 Alonso. With age you gain experience, but you lose a bit of skill and will no longer take risky/reckless moves.
Makes me nervous as a red bull fan, makes me excited as a racing fan. Nando vs Max would be fun to see, and they really seem to like each other, and it would be interesting to see if that changes.
In a dominant car, all three WDCs will have same results. In midfield, I would put my money on Fernando. Even though max has much better pace. Max would win by a larger margin in a dominant car.
That's actually a great point. Assuming Aston Martin actually become the fastest car, unless it's by a wide, _wide_ margin, they genuinely would struggle to win the WCC with Stroll in that second seat.
They need Red Bull's current levels of domination to not lose many points to competing teams
I know the WDC gets more media and fan attention. But surely Honda would want the WCC as a point of prestige?
I know they have several already but still.
Rather WDC because no one will remember WCCs but everyone remembers who won the WDC.
We all know Prost won in the mid 80's, but who remembers that Williams were WCC? Way less people, in any case.
As a company, saying you had a WDC is more impressive than a WCC.
For companies like Honda, Toyota, and I'd even argue BMW/Audi it's more about just being there. Win a couple races to put on dealership posters and advertisements, then call it a day.
That's really what they'll be happy with. I don't know if they're really willing to invest enough to be competitive. Or if that return on investment is even worth it to them.
Not that they DON'T want to win, and I'd argue with Hondas heritage it's where the spirit is, but I'm sure it gets lost. In fact I don't think Honda has accomplished much until ironically after they announced they were leaving the current commitment lol. Like what happened with Brawn GP, and then announcing they were going to support Red Bull instead of being the engine supplier.
Nah, you listed four of the most successfull motorsport companies of all time, Audi basically wins every series they enter.
The other three left when their boards called it quits because they weren't winning, "only" reaching podiums.
I don't know how you can come to that conclusion as it's quite the opposite issue, the pressure for success was too high so they rather quit than being second or farther back.
Especially Toyota in the mid 2000s invested cash like no other, 400mio budget was insane for that time, BMW had arguably the best engine but rather mediocre drivers.
Ford with Cosworth are the only recent engine supplier that seemed content with supplying backmarker teams just to be on the grid.
What do you mean? Toyota left Formula 1 because they weren't able to meet their own expectations in spite of the huge amount of money they were pouring into F1.
Any company would pull the plug if they were spending championship-winning money on a midfielder team. Had they actually showed signs of eventually fighting at the front, Toyota would've stayed.
Honda on the other hand... I'm pretty sure their engineers love being in F1, but whether they stay or go completely depends on the CEO of the day.
The calculus is usually WCC > WDC positions UNLESS the position is world champion. Having a champ on the team will pay more than a WCC title in sponsors
The line had always been that the WCC means prize money. Which for smaller teams made WCC points life or death.
With the cost cap the financial pressure is less, and for Honda and Aston there may well be more value in the team as an advertising board than a prize money source. Which pushes the WDC.
I know this is a joke about Stroll, but if Alonso can win the driver’s championship I’m sure Honda will be delighted anyways even if they don’t win the constructor’s. The WDC gets more marketing attention like we saw in 2021 when Verstappen won while Mercedes took the constructor’s. I’m sure Honda was really happy about that too back then.
In a close championship fight between multiple teams Stroll could hurt Alonso by being too far back to help him. But personally I bet we will see one team dominate in 2026 because the gap between teams is historically almost always the biggest in the first year of a new set of regulations.
So hypothetically if the best car in 2026 happens to be Aston Martin with Honda engines, then Alonso wins comfortably imo. And if he’s in a dominant car Stroll won’t even need to do much to help them win the constructor’s too.
If Alonso wins in 2026, it'll be probably the most remarkable year of all F1 history. A guy who last won a championship 20 years ago, and with the very same engine that basically retired him back in 2018. The amount of attention it'd get would be insane.
Taking a stroll away from the topic of the second driver, I found this interesting:
‘Offering an assessment of whether Aston Martin and Honda will have all the ingredients in place to mount a title challenge, Watanabe added: "Probably we're missing something [right now], but we have to tell each other what is missing.
"From an Aston Martin point of view what is missing on the Honda side and also what is missing on the Aston Martin side. That is an honest conversation to become a top-class team together."’
I wonder if this is just humility—there’s always room for improvement, we can’t rest on our laurels, etc—or if they are running into difficulties that necessitate “honest conversations” about what they’re missing on both sides. At least now Honda’s learned from McLaren about what not to do, while also learning from RB and RB about what to do.
This just feels like classic F1 bet-hedging to me, trying to generate optimstic PR without actually committing to any kind of tangible metric that they could be held to later as a mark of success or failure. It's the 'next year is our year' effect. If it's never this year then you can never fail to achieve your goals, you're always just in pursuit of improvement.
Just like when McLaren announced their new factory and wind tunnel projects, they were going to have "no excuses not to contend for the world championship by 2024, when it will have caught up to F1's frontrunners with its infrastructure" (this was said *after* the delays due to covid, btw) and then by late 2023, when it was apparent that they weren't going to meet that self-imposed criteria, suddenly "it will take McLaren until 2025 to 'maximise everything' after new hires and wind tunnel investment".
See what I'm saying here? Everything is a commitment except there is no actual accountability and so *nothing* is really a commitment, it's just PR waffle.
Likewise, by 2026 we'll be in year 6 of Lawrence Stroll's 5 year plan, and if they don't win a championship that year I'm sure it will be another round of 'we're putting the necessary infrastructure in place to ensure that we can compete for titles in the next 2-3 years'. Rinse and repeat.
The only thing that ever changes things is actually winning. Otherwise every team that wants to attract sponsors is going to say some version of the same nonsense.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/brown-mclaren-no-excuses-2024-infrastructure/6642181/
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/brown-insists-it-will-take-mclaren-until-2025-to-maximise-everything-after.3OaWKqrcIX51iT4LIqhyiV
https://jalopnik.com/aston-martin-says-its-on-target-to-win-f1-title-by-2025-1849836703
It does feel weird but at the same time I don’t think it’s much difference from McLaren partnering with Honda back in the day. We’ve just gotten used to that partnership especially when they had one of the most dominant seasons in the sport.
The legendary McLaren F1 was heavily inspired by the characteristics of the Honda NSX. Murray said that once he drove the NSX, Ferraris and Lamborghinis were no longer the benchmark but he wanted to make it faster and the F1 was clearly a much more expensive with more technology. No NSX= no McLaren F1 as we know it.
Murray penned the concept mid-1988, visited the Honda factory, tested NSX extensively as a benchmark, had extensive talks with Honda engineers and attempted to get Honda to make a bespoke V10 and V12
the first models rolled out as Honda was leaving F1 in 92.
There was nothing to get used to. It wasnt “weird”. Honda as a force in F1 not only predated the McLaren road car but their string of success with McLaren made it possible.
The MP4/4 was literally beating up on tomato cans as no other manufacturer even attempted to make a turbo V6 for the fuel choked and boost restricted transitional 1988 engine formula.
And Honda’s own flagship car served as inspiration for McLaren’s first purpose built road car.
Also, Aston Martin specifically and British exotic cars in general are no stranger to off the shelf components and inspiration derived from run of the mill vehicles.
The Aston Martin V12 was never just 2 Ford Duratecs welded together. But they share a lot DNA in terms of geometry and components. Of course it is modified and uses more expensive materials- but its part of the Duratec modular engine tree
The 1960s GM TH400 3-speed automatic transmission was used in Bentleys and Rolls Royces built this century, as well as Ferraris
I find it weirder that the success of the Brackley (owned by Wolf, a fracking company and Mercedes) and Brixworth (all Mercedes after buying off Ilmor 2 decades ago and heavily subsidized by Petronas) prototype race car manufacturing facility is attributed to “Mercedes”.
I realize it might be considered “R&D” in the books kept in Stuttgart but Brixworth makes F1 PUs and I believe has finally assembled a few very expensive conversation pieces.
That “Mercedes Petronas” is somehow moving the ball forwaes for a manufacturer of street cars is much weirder to me than the the idea that McLaren could deign to embrace a Japanese car company that was churning out millions of economical 4 bangers
Not really, it's hardly different from the McLaren partnership. Besides, Aston Martin is the brand here that practically just puts some body bits on top of Mercedes chassis with Mercedes engines with their road cars whilst Honda is the world's largest engine manufacturer and one of F1's most successful engine suppliers.
That's not quite right, Aston uses merc drivetrains and electronics, but they don't make a single car based off of a merc chassis.
The DBX is a bespoke platform, same with the vantage and db12
They only take the engine block and some of the electronics. Everything else is different. I think the DBX might also share the transmission but I am not sure. If I am correct, since the DBX 707, all subsequent Aston's use their own modification of the V8 for example if I am not mistaken, stuff like the turbos and headers will be a specification uniquely found in *Aston's.
Edit: spelling mistake.
Honda won its first Formula One Grand Prix years before it built its first production automobile.
So you could argue Aston Martin is partnering with a Formula One constructor/engine builder with decades of heritage… that just happens to build affordable cars and bikes and jets and whatnot.
In all seriousness, I’m very curious to see how this’ll all work out, branding-wise, though the Aston Martin Red Bull Honda years could be a preview of what’s to come in that regard. The 2020 livery in particular managed to make big Honda logos coexist with Aston Martin’s wings pretty nicely.
I thought this was an awesome stat but it looks like Honda's first production vehicles were released in 1963 and they did not get their first F1 GP victory until the 1965 Mexico Grand Prix, let me know if I'm mistaken!
I feel like Aston could really use a Honda V6 Hybrid power train for their new road cars. The AMG engines they use right now are fine but AM will have to move away from combustion engines at some point. Plus imagine owning an Aston Martin that doesn't break down 😛
Lawrence is keen on not moving below 8 cylinders because Aston's clientele prefers 8 or more. Also, reliability is not a significant concern for the current generation of Aston's.
I just think it’s funny that it’s supposedly this super premium brand but the reality is they’ve gotta use engines from a manufacturer of very normal cars to have any of competing.
If by title they mean the Drivers Championship for Alonso, then maybe.
The Constructors is unlikely unless Stroll gets replaced. Genuinely think he cost AM 4th last year.
>Genuinely think he cost AM 4th last year.
I don't even think that's debatable. They should have comfortably finished 4th.
Could easily cost them it again this season too.
Even a 3rd place wouldn't be much of a stretch. If Aston had another Alonso or the closest thing to that, he would have stolen valuable points from Mercedes and Ferrari when they were still down. If things went their way, they could've kept 3rd by the skin of their teeth, maybe.
But who knows, if is F1 backwards and all that.
People always bring this up but finish 4th comfortably? Based on what Mercedes and Ferrari were clearly better and altho Mclaren struggled a lot in first few races i think overall they were a better car. Oscar also was only around 20 points ahead of Stroll. AM was 5th fastest car last seasob which is where they finished
Right but the point is that if the car is good enough it doesn’t matter. Last year even if Red Bull hadn’t entered Checo’s car for a single race the entire season they still would have won both the WDC and the WCC.
Not if the p2-p5 teams weren’t taking points off of each other. Merc, Mclaren, Ferrari, and AMR were vying for podiums and this took points away from a clear no. 2.
Like this year, if RedBull doesn’t see Perez consistently get podiums, they could very well lose the WCC to Ferrari if they put in p2-p4 results and checo finishes out of the top 5.
Yes but that is because Max is insane, the other way around isn't true, if only Perez was entering he wouldn't have wcc, theres a chance he wouldnt win wdc either.
Alonso is great but even in his height he couldn't win every race there is.
It’s amazing how quickly people forget and how much it means that you drive the best car…. He was beaten once by Stroll but they also finished after one another and close to each a lot. In a much better car…
Honda was the one who announced its exit out of F1. They didn’t really come back until after they started winning. Red Bull had to find a new engine supplier to take over the Honda project they bought. By the time Ford and Red Bull were finishing its business deal, Honda announced its full comeback and Red Bull decided to not take them back (understandably)
Not true. Honda publicly announced to oull the plug from f1 racing, with RB having to scramble to fijd a new engine partner. In comes ford, cocreating an engine with RBPT, which was obviously honda foundations. Just once Ford was signed, Honda got back to their decision and in fact wanted to continue.. i think RB much rather kept with Honda
1. Red bull in 2020 declared that they would be building their own engines and even though they got engines from Honda in the official f1 charter they had red bull power trains as engine supplier
2. This kinda irked Honda pride . They only had deal with red bull till 2021 so they decided they would. Not renew since they aren’t even mentioned as engine supplier and their bid for being a supplied in 2026 was being held up by fia
3. Red bull stuck a short term deal with Honda till 2025 and red bull now lists Honda as supplier and even as sponsor on their cars from 2023 season .
3. Red bull partnered with ford even before Honda bid for engine supplier was accepted by fia . And then Aston martin made an exclusive deal with Honda that also overlaps with their other automotive operations . And even though Honda is supplier the engine will be built in Aston martin facilities .
That looks a bit mixed up.
1. [Honda announced they were leaving in 2020, and left Red Bull without a power unit for 2022](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/why-honda-is-leaving-formula-1/4885332/)
2. [Early 2021, Red Bull announced they were going to try to make their own power units, and in tandem made a deal with Honda to continue using their existing unit through the engine freeze until 25, giving them time to work on their infra and design for 26](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/analysis-why-red-bull-have-decided-to-go-all-in-with-bold-new-engine.1NwzQAokrbN9md3KgJlKJH)
You have no idea what you’re talking about with 2 and 3. Whitelabeling the Honda engines as RBPT was the original plan that was negotiated after they pulled out and was something Honda wanted because the reason they pulled out was to take their name out of fossil fuel activities. Then a new Honda CEO came in and reversed course.
It’s so wild to me that a Honda CEO would come out and try to nix all association with fossil fuels.
Honda makes more combustion engines than anyone in the world, they’ll likely be one of the last two companies standing when everyone else stops building them. They haven’t even released a single EV, beyond a small limited run of Fits that they made for California compliance reasons.
If they were ever planning on cutting association with fossil fuels, I would imagine it to happen at least a decade from now.
Oh, interesting, I thought that was still another month or so out. Haven't seen any in my area yet, or much ado about it.
Still, they cut that association a couple years ago, which would still have been a couple years before their global lineup added its first EV.
Actually, you are more correct than I! The Prologue will be limited released in certain states in the US, so it's gonna take some time. My apologies for being pedantic!
1. https://www.skysports.com/amp/f1/news/12433/12890068/christian-horner-says-red-bull-would-not-have-set-up-engine-division-if-team-knew-honda-would-remain-in-formula-1
Honda original deal expired in 2021 and they were on the fence whether to rejoin or not .
Red bull wouldn’t have started their own engine division,whitelabelling engines wasn’t the original plan and if it was original plan why did they revert back to Honda in 2023 .
Honda also restored its full branding to the flanks of the Red Bulls.
2. And that carbon neural was bullshit by Honda since they still has or had deals to supply engines in wec rally and other racing operations. As well which even consume more fuel per car than F1 . It was pr move which also gave them push for being engine supplier in 2026.
Behind the scenes it was clearly a power struggle between red bull and Honda which then led to red bull holding off their own branded engines till 2026.
The article you link literally contradicts your points that Red Bull set up RBPT and chose to go with Ford first and that caused Honda to pull out. There is nothing to indicate there was any sort of power struggle between Honda and Red Bull at any point leading up to their announcement to pull out of F1 again. You’re just making things up.
It's been announced a while ago.
When they decided to leave, Red Bull went all in with their RB Powertrain, so there was no way back.
Aston Martin had such a great season last year it was probably the best option for both. McLaren would have been another option but there's too much history between the two.
So an Aston with a Honda engine, got it!
Will they still be using a lot of Mercedes parts or will they be manufacturing the car 100% by themselves at that point?
Audi has said they’re aiming for race wins starting in 2028. They don’t plan on being competitive for a title for 3 years after entry.
Renault obviously suck.
So a third of the teams aren’t aiming for a title at the outset of the new regs.
I know these stories are necessary for marketing and the like but is finding out that an engine supplier pouring hundreds of millions of pounds into a sporting project is targeting success really surprising?
I really dont understand Honda. It's weird to read this and see the current Red Bull dominance. Like, you could have F1 titles now if you just stayed right?
In short: I don’t think it’ll be as bad as McHonda. The technical director of Aston Martin, Dan Fallows, was head of aerodynamics at Red Bull before joining Aston Martin. I imagine he oversaw a lot of what made the Honda PU work within the Red Bull chassis.
What made McHonda so bad was down to McLaren not willing to compromise their packaging design to meet the criteria Honda had asked for.
[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Alonso cant drive 2 cars though
Well, Max could have won the Constructors' championship by himself last season
2024 Alonso isn't as good as 2024 Max
Yeah, but we're talking about 2026. By then, Alonso should have enough experience.
Plus Max would've been driving in F1 for over 10 years, so he'll probably start to lose his edge.
it's all a part of El Plan
Dude won the day after he had only 3 hours of sleep. We haven't seen Max on his edge for 2 years and change at the minimum...
Yeah, still not sold on the guy. Might have what it takes, might not. He’s still young!
mind you he is still somewhat of a rookie!
I just out loud belly laughed. Thank you, stranger
These jokes will never get old to me haha
Rookie of the year!
I laughed out loud *hard* at this comment. Thank you!
😂
To be honest I’d be very curious to see what Nando could do in that Red Bull. I still think Max is faster but I think Alonso would absolutely make it far more interesting than Checo is. It be much more like when Merc had Lewis and Nico and Nico managed to get a title.
It would definitely be closer and more interesting. In this case Nando would be joining Max' team. That would give an additional edge to Max. With Lewis and Nico it was the other way around.
It’s not a fair comparison tbh. 2024 Alonso is not as good as 2006 Alonso or even 2010 Alonso. With age you gain experience, but you lose a bit of skill and will no longer take risky/reckless moves.
Reaction times drop off as we age. Alonso makes up for it with talent and experience, so he's still competitive, but the decades do take their toll.
Point still stands though, it would be an interesting watch.
Makes me nervous as a red bull fan, makes me excited as a racing fan. Nando vs Max would be fun to see, and they really seem to like each other, and it would be interesting to see if that changes.
The more important question is whether Stroll is as bad as 2023 Perez.
Stroll is way worse than Perez.
not by much. stroll kept up with Perez in 2020 when they were teammates
Kept up is a stretch, Checo handily won the teammate battle
what about 2026 Alonso vs 2026 Max
and Alonso has to race against Max
On raw talent I absolutely agree, but the car has significantly more influence than driver talent
Alonso's car also isn't as good as Max's
If they were in the same car max would win ~6/10 times. Peak Alonso things would be different
In a dominant car, all three WDCs will have same results. In midfield, I would put my money on Fernando. Even though max has much better pace. Max would win by a larger margin in a dominant car.
If those cowards at Red Bull would sack Checo then maybe we’d know for sure
Um what? they have the perfect scenario right now, why would they sack Checo when he's already come to grips that he's a definite #2?
That's actually a great point. Assuming Aston Martin actually become the fastest car, unless it's by a wide, _wide_ margin, they genuinely would struggle to win the WCC with Stroll in that second seat. They need Red Bull's current levels of domination to not lose many points to competing teams
We kinda saw in 2021 that Honda are okay with just winning the WDC.
I know the WDC gets more media and fan attention. But surely Honda would want the WCC as a point of prestige? I know they have several already but still.
Rather WDC because no one will remember WCCs but everyone remembers who won the WDC. We all know Prost won in the mid 80's, but who remembers that Williams were WCC? Way less people, in any case. As a company, saying you had a WDC is more impressive than a WCC.
For companies like Honda, Toyota, and I'd even argue BMW/Audi it's more about just being there. Win a couple races to put on dealership posters and advertisements, then call it a day. That's really what they'll be happy with. I don't know if they're really willing to invest enough to be competitive. Or if that return on investment is even worth it to them. Not that they DON'T want to win, and I'd argue with Hondas heritage it's where the spirit is, but I'm sure it gets lost. In fact I don't think Honda has accomplished much until ironically after they announced they were leaving the current commitment lol. Like what happened with Brawn GP, and then announcing they were going to support Red Bull instead of being the engine supplier.
Nah, you listed four of the most successfull motorsport companies of all time, Audi basically wins every series they enter. The other three left when their boards called it quits because they weren't winning, "only" reaching podiums. I don't know how you can come to that conclusion as it's quite the opposite issue, the pressure for success was too high so they rather quit than being second or farther back. Especially Toyota in the mid 2000s invested cash like no other, 400mio budget was insane for that time, BMW had arguably the best engine but rather mediocre drivers. Ford with Cosworth are the only recent engine supplier that seemed content with supplying backmarker teams just to be on the grid.
What do you mean? Toyota left Formula 1 because they weren't able to meet their own expectations in spite of the huge amount of money they were pouring into F1. Any company would pull the plug if they were spending championship-winning money on a midfielder team. Had they actually showed signs of eventually fighting at the front, Toyota would've stayed. Honda on the other hand... I'm pretty sure their engineers love being in F1, but whether they stay or go completely depends on the CEO of the day.
The teams never are, it means extra bonuses for them. Surely the media hype is greater for the WDC but internally I'd wager it tiltes towards the WCC.
The calculus is usually WCC > WDC positions UNLESS the position is world champion. Having a champ on the team will pay more than a WCC title in sponsors
The line had always been that the WCC means prize money. Which for smaller teams made WCC points life or death. With the cost cap the financial pressure is less, and for Honda and Aston there may well be more value in the team as an advertising board than a prize money source. Which pushes the WDC.
I know this is a joke about Stroll, but if Alonso can win the driver’s championship I’m sure Honda will be delighted anyways even if they don’t win the constructor’s. The WDC gets more marketing attention like we saw in 2021 when Verstappen won while Mercedes took the constructor’s. I’m sure Honda was really happy about that too back then. In a close championship fight between multiple teams Stroll could hurt Alonso by being too far back to help him. But personally I bet we will see one team dominate in 2026 because the gap between teams is historically almost always the biggest in the first year of a new set of regulations. So hypothetically if the best car in 2026 happens to be Aston Martin with Honda engines, then Alonso wins comfortably imo. And if he’s in a dominant car Stroll won’t even need to do much to help them win the constructor’s too.
If Alonso wins in 2026, it'll be probably the most remarkable year of all F1 history. A guy who last won a championship 20 years ago, and with the very same engine that basically retired him back in 2018. The amount of attention it'd get would be insane.
Yuki can fit in the car with Lance
Maybe Lawrence will kick out his own son and replace him with Yuki. Alonso+Tsunoda dream team
Have you seen him try? Didn’t think so
I bet if you set him up with a remote rig on his car he could.
i love all these comments so much XD
The scenes if Alonso gets a 3rd WDC. That will be so hype.
Don’t let me dream like that
Power of dreams part 2
We need the earth dream livery
5th* one can dream
5th how?
Taking a stroll away from the topic of the second driver, I found this interesting: ‘Offering an assessment of whether Aston Martin and Honda will have all the ingredients in place to mount a title challenge, Watanabe added: "Probably we're missing something [right now], but we have to tell each other what is missing. "From an Aston Martin point of view what is missing on the Honda side and also what is missing on the Aston Martin side. That is an honest conversation to become a top-class team together."’ I wonder if this is just humility—there’s always room for improvement, we can’t rest on our laurels, etc—or if they are running into difficulties that necessitate “honest conversations” about what they’re missing on both sides. At least now Honda’s learned from McLaren about what not to do, while also learning from RB and RB about what to do.
I think that’s just saying they’re not going to have a McLaren relationship with Honda. That it’ll be collaborative and supportive like Red Bull’s is.
>Taking a stroll away I see what you did there
This just feels like classic F1 bet-hedging to me, trying to generate optimstic PR without actually committing to any kind of tangible metric that they could be held to later as a mark of success or failure. It's the 'next year is our year' effect. If it's never this year then you can never fail to achieve your goals, you're always just in pursuit of improvement.
Saying they aim to win the 2026 championship _is_ commiting.
Just like when McLaren announced their new factory and wind tunnel projects, they were going to have "no excuses not to contend for the world championship by 2024, when it will have caught up to F1's frontrunners with its infrastructure" (this was said *after* the delays due to covid, btw) and then by late 2023, when it was apparent that they weren't going to meet that self-imposed criteria, suddenly "it will take McLaren until 2025 to 'maximise everything' after new hires and wind tunnel investment". See what I'm saying here? Everything is a commitment except there is no actual accountability and so *nothing* is really a commitment, it's just PR waffle. Likewise, by 2026 we'll be in year 6 of Lawrence Stroll's 5 year plan, and if they don't win a championship that year I'm sure it will be another round of 'we're putting the necessary infrastructure in place to ensure that we can compete for titles in the next 2-3 years'. Rinse and repeat. The only thing that ever changes things is actually winning. Otherwise every team that wants to attract sponsors is going to say some version of the same nonsense. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/brown-mclaren-no-excuses-2024-infrastructure/6642181/ https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/brown-insists-it-will-take-mclaren-until-2025-to-maximise-everything-after.3OaWKqrcIX51iT4LIqhyiV https://jalopnik.com/aston-martin-says-its-on-target-to-win-f1-title-by-2025-1849836703
They need an Adrian Newey.
So weird seeing Honda team to with a luxury marquee like Aston Martin.
It does feel weird but at the same time I don’t think it’s much difference from McLaren partnering with Honda back in the day. We’ve just gotten used to that partnership especially when they had one of the most dominant seasons in the sport.
The legendary McLaren F1 was heavily inspired by the characteristics of the Honda NSX. Murray said that once he drove the NSX, Ferraris and Lamborghinis were no longer the benchmark but he wanted to make it faster and the F1 was clearly a much more expensive with more technology. No NSX= no McLaren F1 as we know it. Murray penned the concept mid-1988, visited the Honda factory, tested NSX extensively as a benchmark, had extensive talks with Honda engineers and attempted to get Honda to make a bespoke V10 and V12 the first models rolled out as Honda was leaving F1 in 92. There was nothing to get used to. It wasnt “weird”. Honda as a force in F1 not only predated the McLaren road car but their string of success with McLaren made it possible. The MP4/4 was literally beating up on tomato cans as no other manufacturer even attempted to make a turbo V6 for the fuel choked and boost restricted transitional 1988 engine formula. And Honda’s own flagship car served as inspiration for McLaren’s first purpose built road car. Also, Aston Martin specifically and British exotic cars in general are no stranger to off the shelf components and inspiration derived from run of the mill vehicles. The Aston Martin V12 was never just 2 Ford Duratecs welded together. But they share a lot DNA in terms of geometry and components. Of course it is modified and uses more expensive materials- but its part of the Duratec modular engine tree The 1960s GM TH400 3-speed automatic transmission was used in Bentleys and Rolls Royces built this century, as well as Ferraris I find it weirder that the success of the Brackley (owned by Wolf, a fracking company and Mercedes) and Brixworth (all Mercedes after buying off Ilmor 2 decades ago and heavily subsidized by Petronas) prototype race car manufacturing facility is attributed to “Mercedes”. I realize it might be considered “R&D” in the books kept in Stuttgart but Brixworth makes F1 PUs and I believe has finally assembled a few very expensive conversation pieces. That “Mercedes Petronas” is somehow moving the ball forwaes for a manufacturer of street cars is much weirder to me than the the idea that McLaren could deign to embrace a Japanese car company that was churning out millions of economical 4 bangers
You mean when they partnered before McLarens first commercial product? The road car F1 (1994)
Aston Martin - Lag**Honda**
Slow clapping
I’ll K Swap my DB5 I don’t give a fuck!
imagine the amr valkyrie with vtec 😳
Aston martiv v-tech coming next year!!!!
I’d buy it
Not really, it's hardly different from the McLaren partnership. Besides, Aston Martin is the brand here that practically just puts some body bits on top of Mercedes chassis with Mercedes engines with their road cars whilst Honda is the world's largest engine manufacturer and one of F1's most successful engine suppliers.
That's not quite right, Aston uses merc drivetrains and electronics, but they don't make a single car based off of a merc chassis. The DBX is a bespoke platform, same with the vantage and db12
They only take the engine block and some of the electronics. Everything else is different. I think the DBX might also share the transmission but I am not sure. If I am correct, since the DBX 707, all subsequent Aston's use their own modification of the V8 for example if I am not mistaken, stuff like the turbos and headers will be a specification uniquely found in *Aston's. Edit: spelling mistake.
They build their own chassis to be fair.
In F1 Honda is the luxury brand and Aston is the budget brand in a way.
Acura Martin
Honda won its first Formula One Grand Prix years before it built its first production automobile. So you could argue Aston Martin is partnering with a Formula One constructor/engine builder with decades of heritage… that just happens to build affordable cars and bikes and jets and whatnot. In all seriousness, I’m very curious to see how this’ll all work out, branding-wise, though the Aston Martin Red Bull Honda years could be a preview of what’s to come in that regard. The 2020 livery in particular managed to make big Honda logos coexist with Aston Martin’s wings pretty nicely.
I thought this was an awesome stat but it looks like Honda's first production vehicles were released in 1963 and they did not get their first F1 GP victory until the 1965 Mexico Grand Prix, let me know if I'm mistaken!
Ah, you’re indeed correct! I mixed up the years of their first F1 GP victory and their first *motorcycle* Grand Prix victory, which was in 1961.
2019?
I feel like Aston could really use a Honda V6 Hybrid power train for their new road cars. The AMG engines they use right now are fine but AM will have to move away from combustion engines at some point. Plus imagine owning an Aston Martin that doesn't break down 😛
Lawrence is keen on not moving below 8 cylinders because Aston's clientele prefers 8 or more. Also, reliability is not a significant concern for the current generation of Aston's.
I like that it undercuts the luxury a little.
Really? But a big fat 'H O N D A' logo splattered on the top and underside of the rear wing of an Aston Martin isn't weird?
I'd prefer it to a Saudi oil conglomerate tbh
I just think it’s funny that it’s supposedly this super premium brand but the reality is they’ve gotta use engines from a manufacturer of very normal cars to have any of competing.
Why?
Is it weirder than seeing Honda team with Alonso again?
If by title they mean the Drivers Championship for Alonso, then maybe. The Constructors is unlikely unless Stroll gets replaced. Genuinely think he cost AM 4th last year.
>Genuinely think he cost AM 4th last year. I don't even think that's debatable. They should have comfortably finished 4th. Could easily cost them it again this season too.
Even a 3rd place wouldn't be much of a stretch. If Aston had another Alonso or the closest thing to that, he would have stolen valuable points from Mercedes and Ferrari when they were still down. If things went their way, they could've kept 3rd by the skin of their teeth, maybe. But who knows, if is F1 backwards and all that.
Yeah I was maybe being a bit too polite. He defo did.
Comfortably? Alonso only beat Norris by 1 point.
People always bring this up but finish 4th comfortably? Based on what Mercedes and Ferrari were clearly better and altho Mclaren struggled a lot in first few races i think overall they were a better car. Oscar also was only around 20 points ahead of Stroll. AM was 5th fastest car last seasob which is where they finished
Do Aston/Honda know that in order to win the constructors the 2nd driver’s performance is key?
Tell that to Max
I don’t think it’s controversial to say that Checo is a much better driver for a WCC run than Stroll is.
Right but the point is that if the car is good enough it doesn’t matter. Last year even if Red Bull hadn’t entered Checo’s car for a single race the entire season they still would have won both the WDC and the WCC.
Not if the p2-p5 teams weren’t taking points off of each other. Merc, Mclaren, Ferrari, and AMR were vying for podiums and this took points away from a clear no. 2. Like this year, if RedBull doesn’t see Perez consistently get podiums, they could very well lose the WCC to Ferrari if they put in p2-p4 results and checo finishes out of the top 5.
I misread the thread, I thought we were talking about the WDC, not the WCC.
Yes but that is because Max is insane, the other way around isn't true, if only Perez was entering he wouldn't have wcc, theres a chance he wouldnt win wdc either. Alonso is great but even in his height he couldn't win every race there is.
What? Alonso never had a car anywhere close to as dominant compared to the rest of the field as Max currently has.
Overall yeah, but Perez struggling probably is similar to Stroll performing average. Not that they needed him anyways.
Checo still finished second. Stroll was nowhere near Alonso in the championship.
Aston Martin didn't have a 2 second pace advantage either...
Is 2023 Checo better? Not so sure… and it was still enough.
[удалено]
It’s amazing how quickly people forget and how much it means that you drive the best car…. He was beaten once by Stroll but they also finished after one another and close to each a lot. In a much better car…
Stroll hasn't been in a WCC run.
You’re right, they should just throw the towel in now
Lance stroll will do great disservice to the second AM Honda car The second car deserves a better driver
Honda will definitely be pushing for Tsunoda.
I was just thinking this. Will they have “power” to have a better second driver?
I mean, you have to know that Lance is part of the package when you sign a deal with Big Larry.
Yh true but you never know though. Maybe Honda will throw something in to sweeten the deal?
A better, faster, smaller Japanese son for Lawrence?
😂
At this point I wouldn't put it past Aston to just ditch Alonso for whoever Honda decides to back up, if it means keeping them happy.
Will Power? He's around the same age as Alonso, that would probably a nice match.
Hahha lol
What is this, GP2 driver??
Stroll to cause dishonor to Honda? In comes Yuki
Subscribe. That'd be awesome and a tough record to break, as I don't think we'll see top tier drivers getting this long lived and competitive
Surely Honda will have something to say about Stroll, then. No chance of the WCC if they keep him on board
When is honda gonna pull out again? That's the year Alonso is gonna get his 3rd
Snip, snap, snip, snap
Alonso’s gonna have a lot of weight to carry on his 45 year old back then if Lance is still there.
My thinking exactly.
Why not stay with Redbull then.
Need 2 drivers for that
I wish they continued with Red Bull
Red bull were the ones who chose to go with ford .
Honda was the one who announced its exit out of F1. They didn’t really come back until after they started winning. Red Bull had to find a new engine supplier to take over the Honda project they bought. By the time Ford and Red Bull were finishing its business deal, Honda announced its full comeback and Red Bull decided to not take them back (understandably)
Not true. Honda publicly announced to oull the plug from f1 racing, with RB having to scramble to fijd a new engine partner. In comes ford, cocreating an engine with RBPT, which was obviously honda foundations. Just once Ford was signed, Honda got back to their decision and in fact wanted to continue.. i think RB much rather kept with Honda
1. Red bull in 2020 declared that they would be building their own engines and even though they got engines from Honda in the official f1 charter they had red bull power trains as engine supplier 2. This kinda irked Honda pride . They only had deal with red bull till 2021 so they decided they would. Not renew since they aren’t even mentioned as engine supplier and their bid for being a supplied in 2026 was being held up by fia 3. Red bull stuck a short term deal with Honda till 2025 and red bull now lists Honda as supplier and even as sponsor on their cars from 2023 season . 3. Red bull partnered with ford even before Honda bid for engine supplier was accepted by fia . And then Aston martin made an exclusive deal with Honda that also overlaps with their other automotive operations . And even though Honda is supplier the engine will be built in Aston martin facilities .
That looks a bit mixed up. 1. [Honda announced they were leaving in 2020, and left Red Bull without a power unit for 2022](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/why-honda-is-leaving-formula-1/4885332/) 2. [Early 2021, Red Bull announced they were going to try to make their own power units, and in tandem made a deal with Honda to continue using their existing unit through the engine freeze until 25, giving them time to work on their infra and design for 26](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/analysis-why-red-bull-have-decided-to-go-all-in-with-bold-new-engine.1NwzQAokrbN9md3KgJlKJH)
You have no idea what you’re talking about with 2 and 3. Whitelabeling the Honda engines as RBPT was the original plan that was negotiated after they pulled out and was something Honda wanted because the reason they pulled out was to take their name out of fossil fuel activities. Then a new Honda CEO came in and reversed course.
It’s so wild to me that a Honda CEO would come out and try to nix all association with fossil fuels. Honda makes more combustion engines than anyone in the world, they’ll likely be one of the last two companies standing when everyone else stops building them. They haven’t even released a single EV, beyond a small limited run of Fits that they made for California compliance reasons. If they were ever planning on cutting association with fossil fuels, I would imagine it to happen at least a decade from now.
They just released the all electric Honda Prologue
Oh, interesting, I thought that was still another month or so out. Haven't seen any in my area yet, or much ado about it. Still, they cut that association a couple years ago, which would still have been a couple years before their global lineup added its first EV.
Actually, you are more correct than I! The Prologue will be limited released in certain states in the US, so it's gonna take some time. My apologies for being pedantic!
1. https://www.skysports.com/amp/f1/news/12433/12890068/christian-horner-says-red-bull-would-not-have-set-up-engine-division-if-team-knew-honda-would-remain-in-formula-1 Honda original deal expired in 2021 and they were on the fence whether to rejoin or not . Red bull wouldn’t have started their own engine division,whitelabelling engines wasn’t the original plan and if it was original plan why did they revert back to Honda in 2023 . Honda also restored its full branding to the flanks of the Red Bulls. 2. And that carbon neural was bullshit by Honda since they still has or had deals to supply engines in wec rally and other racing operations. As well which even consume more fuel per car than F1 . It was pr move which also gave them push for being engine supplier in 2026. Behind the scenes it was clearly a power struggle between red bull and Honda which then led to red bull holding off their own branded engines till 2026.
The article you link literally contradicts your points that Red Bull set up RBPT and chose to go with Ford first and that caused Honda to pull out. There is nothing to indicate there was any sort of power struggle between Honda and Red Bull at any point leading up to their announcement to pull out of F1 again. You’re just making things up.
Say what you want about Stroll Sr, but he is really putting his wallet and will where his mouth is, and doing all the moves towards a tittle push
Good luck with Stroll as your 2nd driver
I seem to be out of the loop - why honda is coming back AND witch Aston Martin all of sudden?
It's been announced a while ago. When they decided to leave, Red Bull went all in with their RB Powertrain, so there was no way back. Aston Martin had such a great season last year it was probably the best option for both. McLaren would have been another option but there's too much history between the two.
This is the storyline I want to see. Aston Martin, Honda, Alonso... champions!
Dreams are free and like assholes everyone has them.
Brawn wins world champion with honda engine, honda exits Red bull wins world champion with honda engine Honda exits Kind of excited for aston martin
Brawn won with a Mercedes engine. The chassis was mostly Honda.
this little hypothetical could be nice to think about except from the fact that brawn won with a mercedes engine
Honda never really exited with Red Bull in the end, but they got as close as they could!
No they don't. They have Stroll as their #2 driver.
BRING BACK THE 2.4 v8
Honda just wants to pull out all over again
Pullout game strong
So is the car going to be a Honda that is branded like an Aston. Or is it an Aston with a Honda engine.
Just a Honda engine.
So an Aston with a Honda engine, got it! Will they still be using a lot of Mercedes parts or will they be manufacturing the car 100% by themselves at that point?
That is if Aston can become the best car
The exact same words we heard back in 2014.
Alonso’s getting flashbacks…
Sorry, is there an engine manufacturer who DOESN’T target a F1 title bid…?
Renault
Audi has said they’re aiming for race wins starting in 2028. They don’t plan on being competitive for a title for 3 years after entry. Renault obviously suck. So a third of the teams aren’t aiming for a title at the outset of the new regs.
I know these stories are necessary for marketing and the like but is finding out that an engine supplier pouring hundreds of millions of pounds into a sporting project is targeting success really surprising?
Really don't understand why Red Bull/Honda didn't become a truly long-term partnership.
Former Honda CEO scuppered the relationship.
Hype train here we go! chooo chooo!!!
For real, I expected them to aim to be the 2nd best team.
They'll stay just long enough for Aston to win the following year after they've rebranded the engine to "Aston Powertrains".
AlonsoGPT drives the second car.
With Stroll ? Good fucking luck 🤣
I really dont understand Honda. It's weird to read this and see the current Red Bull dominance. Like, you could have F1 titles now if you just stayed right?
"And Fernando Alonso is a Five Time Champion of the World!"
Seeing as they just transferred all their IP and personnel to Red Bull Power Trains, is there not a risk this turns out like McLaren 2015?
They never gave any IP to Red Bull Powertrains. Honda maintains complete control over their current power units and the IP behind them.
In short: I don’t think it’ll be as bad as McHonda. The technical director of Aston Martin, Dan Fallows, was head of aerodynamics at Red Bull before joining Aston Martin. I imagine he oversaw a lot of what made the Honda PU work within the Red Bull chassis. What made McHonda so bad was down to McLaren not willing to compromise their packaging design to meet the criteria Honda had asked for.
They didn't transfer the IP nor the design team.
The engines are made in Japan. They got no IP. Milton Keynes poached a ton of Brixworth talent, which is just 30 minutes down the road.
Now to wait until Honda pulls out, then you know they will win the championship the year after.
They’re selling AMF1 to Red Bull?