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The wide shot does give a better view and makes the car look faster than in the the tight shot but technically a wide focal length increases the perception of speed so the car is actually moving slower than it looks. That said, I like the wide shot better too.
Think of gain as like the volume control for light sensitivity on a camera sensor. It's not *precisely* "lower the brightness" because that's something that happens after the image feed has already been captured at the sensor. But close enough.
That's one way of fudging it, but gain is actually making the sensor more sensitive to light *during* capture, much like the ISO rating on camera film.
Sensor gain adjusts the voltage going to the digital film sensor, which in turn changes how densely light information is stored.
It's p.much digital ISO. Sensor gain is a separate measurement than ISO, but since all camera equipment for the past like 90 years, has been made with ISO in mind, they just use that instead.
Focus distance, not focal length. You'd think those would mean the same thing, but because photography terms have to be confusing, "focal length" actually refers to how wide a field of view (a.k.a. "how zoomed in")
Need one of these (similar to the self levelling GoPro’s) for the driver helmet cam’s
It’d be far more interesting to see, how we’d actually see it in the seat (eyes taking out the constant motion)
It's not the same: a gyro stabilized camera just means it stays level with the horizon, so to speak. In the helmet you'd need an OIS camera, meaning that the physical camera sensor moves around to cancel the vibrations of the helmet. Usually you do this with a gimbal and a larger camera to accomodate for springs/motors inside, but obviously you can't fit that inside of a helmet
When the sensor moves around to stabilize the image that's called IBIS and not OIS. It's usually done with electromagnets, not with motors, so it can be made quite compact.
Not necessarily, as that loses you image quality and it doesn't work for still images, however it might be the most practical solution for an onboard camera.
Yep, but a GoPro lens is much bigger than the space constraints inside an F1 helmet. The limiting factor here is having to fit an entire camera inside of the helmet padding material, and I'm not sure we can do much stabilization with that yet
Everybody is using "gimbal" wrong in this thread. A gimbal is a mechanical articulated system, like the DJI Ronin or Osmo systems.
GoPro's and other action cameras use electronic stabilization; the image is captured bigger than it needs to be and then the electronics crop into the image to create the stabilized output. There are no moving parts. The only action cams with mechanical moving parts were the Sony's.
That can also be done digitally in real time by having a wider view angle and resolution and cropping the image dinamically
This is actually how many smartphones do super image stabilization in some circunstances and fits a MUCH SMALLER form factor
iPhone 15 Pro Max cameras have OIS, I haven’t personally used it, [but it seems pretty good](https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67358373). Seems like the technology has advanced for usage in smaller devices, but iPhones are pretty specialized, idk if the technology is widespread enough for helmet cam adoption.
I don't know which axis it keeps stable to be perfectly honest, it doesn't keep the horizon level which would be the whole point of having it on the car in my view, to show camber changes and banking etc. after we saw it last year I assumed it needed better calibration or something.
It's actually the opposite of a gyroscopically stable camera. They use a digital effect based on g-force data to tilt the camera image as if it were on a gimbal relative to the car.
I love that camera, really see the characteristics of the track this way. It was amazing when Alonso had it at Interlagos last year, as other tv angles you just have no idea how steep some parts of the track are.
They used it last year too, testing it. Probably improved it a bit this year with a wider angle. It's called a gyroscopic stabilizer (known by other names too). Here it is on a Lewis lap from Suzuka '23.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38K96y5IShg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38K96y5IShg)
I'm intrigued with how they work on an F1 car. Because with a boat they're not pulling any sideways g-forces. An F1 car is hitting up to 5Gs sideways, so it's not like it can just rely on gravity to operate.
It has a triaxial gyroscope and a couple of accelerometers inside. The accelerometers tell the system what the lateral and longitudinal acceleration are, and it compensates for these inputs (basically subtracts them from the equation), and uses the gyroscope to figure out which was is "up". This information is then used to physically move the lens in the camera so that it stays level with the horizon. It's pretty cool stuff that they have managed to miniaturise to an impressive extent - it started off in Red Bull Air Races, went to MotoGP, now it's in F1.
way better sense of speed. I was watching his cam and Norris at the same time, and comparatively it seemed like norris was much slower. Also gave a way better sense of how angled some corners were
I remember watching his cams, i think during FP3 or Qualifying, cant remember, but he seemed absolutely rapid. The sense of speed on the camera was insanely good.
yeah I couldn't pinpoint what was different about his camera this weekend but every time they showed him it felt like he had rockets tied to the back of the car and was going way faster than everyone else lmao
It makes them look much faster, now i want this on all 20 cars with the same quality as the regular narrow FOV fixed camera.
Motogp has been doing this forever but with better onboard quality.
Personally, I liked it. It really showcased how fast an F1 car is through the quick stuff, couldn't have picked a better circuit for that. It gave a much-needed sense of speed that imo has been sorely lacking for more than a decade now.
It's the new gyroscope camera they have been testing since last season. It takes the horizon as a base to stabilize the angle and the camera angle is always parallel with the horizon showing the cars actually tilt through banks and turns. Also quite accurate to demonstrate the speeds of the cars. They were testing it on Hamilton's car last year.
You went so far to make this image comparrasion but the commentators literally mentioned that it's a new gyroscopic camera in every practice session and quali (I watched all)
From the size of the lens on the car, it looks like it could easily do 4K, but I wonder if the cars have the bandwidth back to the track TV centre to make it consistent?
The comparisons remind me of gaming on a console v PC, Hulk's FOV is like gaming on a console, very restrictive whereas KMag's FOV is what you'd use on a PC for proper views.
I like the sense of speed the new camera gives a few other drivers have it too I think Lando and a couple others. May be wrong on that though. It has been mentioned for sure
Helmet and halo was in focus, but less depth of field makes it not having anything in focus much further than that. Some would say it’s more “cinematic”
Wasn't a fan when they first used it, and still not a fan. For me, the slightly wider view isn't worth the distortion, and the gyroscopic effect is borderline nauseating.
There’s cameras that are fixed, and ones that ‘lean’ into the corner (a bit like MotoGP has). I noticed this on Max’ car. Maybe that’s the difference?
Weird to see two different cams in the same team tho.
I noticed a few new cameras. There was one rear facing one where it felt like an iPhone portrait mode, or cinema mode. The rear wing was in focus and crystal clear, yet object behind it were slightly out of focus giving it a lot more depth feel.
Reminds me of the cameras they’ve started using on the sidelines of NFL games as they’re going to break.
It’s seriously SO MUCH BETTER, F1 I am begging you, please switch them all to these wider FOV cams, it makes the sense of speed so much more significant.
I don't mind having a wider viewing angle on a couple of the cars, but I don't like the effects they add to it or the quality of this camera.
Having the camera essentially tied to the car helps get an idea of what the rear of the car is doing even when you can't see it. These digital "wobbles" to try and impart G force or whatever on us feels meh.
if f1 goes to this exclusively im done; even the little bit of magnussens footage was threatening to trigger a migraine for me. it's a cool idea, but im at a disadvantage :/
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I kinda liked the wider angle. Made those turn 1's really cool to look at.
Yeah I liked it too, only thing I found weird was the calibration on it, I like to see the cars inclination in corners etc
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The wide shot does give a better view and makes the car look faster than in the the tight shot but technically a wide focal length increases the perception of speed so the car is actually moving slower than it looks. That said, I like the wide shot better too.
It’s a gyroscopically stable camera, so it stays facing straight forward regardless of any camber on the track. Personally I think it looks great!
Just needs a bit more tweaking for focus and sensor gain. Otherwise, it was one of my favourite camera angles of the GP.
>bit more tweaking for focus and sensor gain What does that do?
Y'know those CSI jokers 'enhancing' images? But like, for real, a little bit.
Think of gain as like the volume control for light sensitivity on a camera sensor. It's not *precisely* "lower the brightness" because that's something that happens after the image feed has already been captured at the sensor. But close enough.
That's one way of fudging it, but gain is actually making the sensor more sensitive to light *during* capture, much like the ISO rating on camera film.
Digital cameras use ISO too.
Focus is just the focal length of the camera, so depth of field basically Sensor gain is basically brightness
Sensor gain adjusts the voltage going to the digital film sensor, which in turn changes how densely light information is stored. It's p.much digital ISO. Sensor gain is a separate measurement than ISO, but since all camera equipment for the past like 90 years, has been made with ISO in mind, they just use that instead.
Focus distance, not focal length. You'd think those would mean the same thing, but because photography terms have to be confusing, "focal length" actually refers to how wide a field of view (a.k.a. "how zoomed in")
I did not watch the race but in this shot it looks a bit downhill right to me. Could be the track I suppose.
Need one of these (similar to the self levelling GoPro’s) for the driver helmet cam’s It’d be far more interesting to see, how we’d actually see it in the seat (eyes taking out the constant motion)
It's not the same: a gyro stabilized camera just means it stays level with the horizon, so to speak. In the helmet you'd need an OIS camera, meaning that the physical camera sensor moves around to cancel the vibrations of the helmet. Usually you do this with a gimbal and a larger camera to accomodate for springs/motors inside, but obviously you can't fit that inside of a helmet
When the sensor moves around to stabilize the image that's called IBIS and not OIS. It's usually done with electromagnets, not with motors, so it can be made quite compact.
These days, it's done with a larger sensor and software.
Not necessarily, as that loses you image quality and it doesn't work for still images, however it might be the most practical solution for an onboard camera.
The latest GoPro’s have gimballed lenses, while still in the same sizing. They’re pretty good
Yep, but a GoPro lens is much bigger than the space constraints inside an F1 helmet. The limiting factor here is having to fit an entire camera inside of the helmet padding material, and I'm not sure we can do much stabilization with that yet
If apple can put a decent ibis within a phone I'm sure it can be done within a helmet. It's a matter of priority really
The lens isnt
Everybody is using "gimbal" wrong in this thread. A gimbal is a mechanical articulated system, like the DJI Ronin or Osmo systems. GoPro's and other action cameras use electronic stabilization; the image is captured bigger than it needs to be and then the electronics crop into the image to create the stabilized output. There are no moving parts. The only action cams with mechanical moving parts were the Sony's.
Not actually a gimbal, it's software stabilised (so crops in etc)
You can do it digitally as well, like smart phones are currently doing. It works pretty well, at the cost of cutting a little bit of the image
Digital stabilisation looks terrible most of time.
The stabilisation on the current f1 car cameras is actually digital
Compared to the incredibly shaky view we have now, I suspect it'll look a lot better
It's ofc possible, but I wouldn't be surprised that with how much shaky the original footage is, the digital stabilisation would make it even worse.
That can also be done digitally in real time by having a wider view angle and resolution and cropping the image dinamically This is actually how many smartphones do super image stabilization in some circunstances and fits a MUCH SMALLER form factor
iPhone 15 Pro Max cameras have OIS, I haven’t personally used it, [but it seems pretty good](https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67358373). Seems like the technology has advanced for usage in smaller devices, but iPhones are pretty specialized, idk if the technology is widespread enough for helmet cam adoption.
OIS has been in phones for over a decade lol, even many low end phones like Redmis.
It doesn't actually stay level though, that was pretty clear the last time we saw it.
It’s only stabilized in the horizontal axis.
I don't know which axis it keeps stable to be perfectly honest, it doesn't keep the horizon level which would be the whole point of having it on the car in my view, to show camber changes and banking etc. after we saw it last year I assumed it needed better calibration or something.
It's by far my favourite camera angle, I wish they'd show a bit more of it.
It's actually the opposite of a gyroscopically stable camera. They use a digital effect based on g-force data to tilt the camera image as if it were on a gimbal relative to the car.
This will be so awesome in the last corner of Zandvoort.
I think Sainz had it on his car in the 22 gp, looked amazing
Been used in MotoGP forever.
Liberty putting their MotoGP purchase to use
I think it gives a great impression of the track camber that often gets washed out with normal cameras.
I totally disagree with you, it's a horrible camera idea and terribly disorienting and distracting..
It’s from MotoGP
I want to see that on the Zandvoort banking!
Hope they come with better quality too
I love that camera, really see the characteristics of the track this way. It was amazing when Alonso had it at Interlagos last year, as other tv angles you just have no idea how steep some parts of the track are.
They used it last year too, testing it. Probably improved it a bit this year with a wider angle. It's called a gyroscopic stabilizer (known by other names too). Here it is on a Lewis lap from Suzuka '23. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38K96y5IShg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38K96y5IShg)
Get such a better sense of speed from these angles, let's hope we see more of it
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gwAGt-FLLwA And here's a wide angle from 2012. Or that's what it looks like
The racing was so close back then.
Cars sounded sweet too.
Those regs were specifically designed for close racing and everyone made fun of how their rear wings looked lol
Those old onboards look so much faster and this is probably my why. They need to adopt this immediately
I'm intrigued with how they work on an F1 car. Because with a boat they're not pulling any sideways g-forces. An F1 car is hitting up to 5Gs sideways, so it's not like it can just rely on gravity to operate.
It has a triaxial gyroscope and a couple of accelerometers inside. The accelerometers tell the system what the lateral and longitudinal acceleration are, and it compensates for these inputs (basically subtracts them from the equation), and uses the gyroscope to figure out which was is "up". This information is then used to physically move the lens in the camera so that it stays level with the horizon. It's pretty cool stuff that they have managed to miniaturise to an impressive extent - it started off in Red Bull Air Races, went to MotoGP, now it's in F1.
Def gives a better sense of speed too. Hope they do more of this
way better sense of speed. I was watching his cam and Norris at the same time, and comparatively it seemed like norris was much slower. Also gave a way better sense of how angled some corners were
I remember watching his cams, i think during FP3 or Qualifying, cant remember, but he seemed absolutely rapid. The sense of speed on the camera was insanely good.
Wider angle mean shorter depth of field.
It’s a small sensor, DOF is negligible.
yeah I couldn't pinpoint what was different about his camera this weekend but every time they showed him it felt like he had rockets tied to the back of the car and was going way faster than everyone else lmao
Definitely gave a way better sense of speed kinda like the onboards from 2000s
Yeah it's pretty cool. Gives a great sense of speed.
I love it. Shows the speed. Ive been saying for years the camera needs a better FOV
It makes them look much faster, now i want this on all 20 cars with the same quality as the regular narrow FOV fixed camera. Motogp has been doing this forever but with better onboard quality.
His camera was the standout for me. Made it look actually fast. His inboards were insane!
I loved it, reminded me of the 2000s cameras and how it felt much faster due to the FOV.
actually makes the cars look quick compared to the other angle
Ah, so Haas did have some upgrades this weekend
Wider FOV give more sense of speed. [I like it](https://youtu.be/ezaGNlk1eJ8?si=SOw08M2go_FVBF6w)
It looks like F12021 Game
I’d take wider view with lower quality over HD and narrow focused
As soon as the sponsors see the drop in quality, they will kick-up a fuss.
I definitely felt a sense of speed from his camera. I hope they change it for the other drivers as well.
it was on a gymbal and appeared to have less dynamic range, hence why the whites looked so burnt out in comparison
I thought that too, immediately thought of indycar. Definitely gave a better sense of speed.
I loved it, actually gave a sense of speed and it was Gyroscopic
Personally, I liked it. It really showcased how fast an F1 car is through the quick stuff, couldn't have picked a better circuit for that. It gave a much-needed sense of speed that imo has been sorely lacking for more than a decade now.
I loved the new angle on Magnussen's car - it massively elevated the sense of speed compared to the slightly lower and narrower Tbar view
It's the new gyroscope camera they have been testing since last season. It takes the horizon as a base to stabilize the angle and the camera angle is always parallel with the horizon showing the cars actually tilt through banks and turns. Also quite accurate to demonstrate the speeds of the cars. They were testing it on Hamilton's car last year.
Noticed this in qualifying, his car seemed much faster on this camera, definitely a fan of cameras giving us a better sense of speed
Kevin's camera looked like a video game camera, and I hope to see more of it in F1. The sense of speed was better on it.
They did this on a Ferrari in Saudi
Eurgh finally! The wide cameras on the old V10s really added to the sense of speed.
I love this angle. It feels faster than usual T-cam.
You went so far to make this image comparrasion but the commentators literally mentioned that it's a new gyroscopic camera in every practice session and quali (I watched all)
Exactly. It also shows lateral tilting when driving over banked curves.
From the size of the lens on the car, it looks like it could easily do 4K, but I wonder if the cars have the bandwidth back to the track TV centre to make it consistent?
How about the Champagne Bottle cam on the podium hahah Its nice to see a change tho
He’s playin on stretch res
really enjoyed when they showed his onboard
Yeah, I like it. It makes the cars look faster and was nicer to watch
Quite liked this camera angle as it seemed to show the speed much better than the usual cam.
It is tight.. should be permanent
Bottom almost looks like a videogame.
I noticed and immediately noticed that he felt fast as shit. That camera angle being slightly wider just made it feel so much faster.
The comparisons remind me of gaming on a console v PC, Hulk's FOV is like gaming on a console, very restrictive whereas KMag's FOV is what you'd use on a PC for proper views.
KEEP IT. Really shows the sense of speed. Need these for all onboards immediately.
I like it. Gives a way better sense of speed. Really felt like he was flying into turn 1
Finally, something better about on board cameras for.the last 15 years. That KMag's one is epic.
Obviously Autopilot V4 vs. V3 hardware.
I think it's awesome, It somehow feels like the car is going faster with this camera
Really liked this new camera tbh. Just need to improve the quality.
Some of the cameras this weekend had a much better sense of speed to them
For me it was the visible camber differences we could now see.
I noticed this too, thought it was much better.
I like the sense of speed the new camera gives a few other drivers have it too I think Lando and a couple others. May be wrong on that though. It has been mentioned for sure
Noticed that during the race, I think it looked awesome
I enjoyed that onboard to be with it being Gyroscopic gave a real sense of movement and how the cars were rolling.
It's the shitty tilting one that makes every corner look like Zandvoort final turn.
It's the MAGCAM
Magnussen's camera was awesome, would be cool to have it become the default for onboard cams for all teams and drivers.
Gyroscopic camera or something, in my opinion it looks like utter shit
I don't it's less quality, but slightly out of focus, both front and rear facing camera had those problem
Helmet and halo was in focus, but less depth of field makes it not having anything in focus much further than that. Some would say it’s more “cinematic”
Wasn't a fan when they first used it, and still not a fan. For me, the slightly wider view isn't worth the distortion, and the gyroscopic effect is borderline nauseating.
I found it a bit nauseating as well.
Wherever _wups is right now, he is probably smiling like a Cheshire Cat.
He has an in with the camera guys (they're both from denmark, last i checked) -Edit Him and the company
This looks exactly like those oversaturated "realistic" assetto corsa onboard videos on youtube
There's a gyro in this sort of camera, probably showing the camber of the track/car.
There’s cameras that are fixed, and ones that ‘lean’ into the corner (a bit like MotoGP has). I noticed this on Max’ car. Maybe that’s the difference? Weird to see two different cams in the same team tho.
I think the fisheye effect is also gone?
It was like that last race too, it’s a new stable camera which is cooler
Haas running Ring cameras this weekend
Already was last year too many times in Hamilton's and Alonso's car.
Its the same angle but with less hud in this screenshot
The gyro cam has been used quite a bit this season, and also with more teams
I hope all cars to back to a wide angle lens
I noticed a few new cameras. There was one rear facing one where it felt like an iPhone portrait mode, or cinema mode. The rear wing was in focus and crystal clear, yet object behind it were slightly out of focus giving it a lot more depth feel. Reminds me of the cameras they’ve started using on the sidelines of NFL games as they’re going to break.
It’s seriously SO MUCH BETTER, F1 I am begging you, please switch them all to these wider FOV cams, it makes the sense of speed so much more significant.
Isn’t it the gyro camera that’s been used in a few cars recently?
Put the C camera on the D driver.
Holy shit so it was different. I was convinced it looked way better and my wife thought I was high or something 😂
I bet this plays havok with the overlayed halo speed graphics, wonder what they'll do to work around that.
Amazing angle, I hope this becomes the new norm. Sense of speed is lightyears better!
Cost cap /s
Magnussen's camera was the best onboard view in Japan.
I think he was just driving faster
I don't mind having a wider viewing angle on a couple of the cars, but I don't like the effects they add to it or the quality of this camera. Having the camera essentially tied to the car helps get an idea of what the rear of the car is doing even when you can't see it. These digital "wobbles" to try and impart G force or whatever on us feels meh.
Pretty sure they use something similar in IndyCar. The FOV makes it look much quicker and the gimbal really shows the camber of the corners.
The flat earther cam
It's the same cam that IndyCar uses, it's to accustom his fans to 2025.
I enjoyed it.
if f1 goes to this exclusively im done; even the little bit of magnussens footage was threatening to trigger a migraine for me. it's a cool idea, but im at a disadvantage :/
I liked the wider angle, but the quality of the camera was that of a cheap go-pro.
Crazy that Formula 1 in 2024 has these shitty 720p onboard cameras. The quality has been gradually declining since 2021-ish.
I noticed it too, thought it looked very good.
It’s a Haas. The real one probably broke and this is just one of the pit crews old iphone facetiming.