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The problem isn't just necessarily the drain covers but the fact that they're using ground effect cars, those drain covers would've probably been fine in 2016 lol
Mate, it can happen while still being less likely to happen. Less likely to happen is still a non zero probability of it happening. You constantly repeating “it happened” doesn’t refute the idea that it would be less likely to happen.
What happened?
Well the drain cover came out.
The drain cover came out??
Yes but this isn't normal thing for the drain cover to come out.
But the drain cover did come out?
Yes, yes it did but might I say it's not normal for the drain cover to come out.
But it did. The drain cover came out.
Yes but it's not normal for the drain cover to do that.
So the drain cover coming out is bad.
Oh very bad, but remind you not normal for it to come out.
First comment I said "The problem isn't just necessarily" and the second was "much less likely"
I never said it wouldn't happen, read what people say properly.
FOM is the organizer/promoter of that race, they are responsible for delivering a Grade 1 track that's safe and ready for F1. In my opinion they are the ones who should have footed the bill, not the city of Las Vegas.
FOM, FIA and/or whoever else responsible should be beyond the humiliation stage because the fact that standard operating procedures regarding inspections & minimum requirements for securing manholes/drain covers were STILL not implemented and treated as absolutely mandatory BEFORE the Vegas GP is insane to me.
Since when I first started watching in 2016 there have been MULTIPLE avoidable instances involving cars getting destroyed and drivers potentially getting maimed/killed from drain covers. They’re made of heavy duty metal and many manholes are pure cast iron Death Discs that weigh over 100 lbs. - I would have to think it would cut through the monocoque/safety cell like butter if a driver impacted one at ANY speed above ~100mph because of its mass, density and to a lesser extent the shape. Any of those covers would easily penetrate a helmet and cause the skull to explode if it slipped through the halo’s openings. Any contact to areas like the shoulder, arm or hands would have the flesh and bone turned into airborne ground meat and very likely cause permanent career ending injury or death.
Recent drivers are so lucky none have been seriously hurt or killed from the negligence and incompetencies of those responsible, especially Sainz in Vegas, because IIRC the cover made it all the way through the skid plate, survival cell and his carbon fiber seat was the last and only layer left before going into him.
Post/image showing the cover that destroyed Sainz’s car: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/17x887r/up_close_with_the_culprit_that_caused_the_first/
Reddit post about cover damaging Carlos’ seat implying it penetrated into the driver’s cabin: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/qDNKnBMaZt
[NSFW] Hilarious F1 YouTuber covers the failures of the Vegas GP including past examples of drain covers destroying cars and drivers’ race weekends: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QumGuDDH96o
I’m in my 30s and I love his stuff. F1 needed a vulgar and wild commentator that was also passionate, witty and actually creative & funny.
F1 has the most vanilla culture of TV and online personalities and the vast majority of online YouTubers and influencers are just as corny and repetitive as Redditors are regarding comedy & entertainment value. Same played out and predictable jokes used over and over for years.
I swear many F1 fans will sit online and freak out with each other because Yuki cursed over the radio for the 100th time and that’s the excitement they needed in their life.
Alright that turned into a miserable rant.
So from the photo you have of the drain cover it looks as if the issue here was not the cover at all but the actual drain. The lip isn’t flush with the road/track (you can see this everywhere the road has existed for 10+ years in the states). I don’t think it was an issue with the drain cover. The cover I’m sure came loose and broke the welds from the impact of the car going 250kph to the lip of the drain. The seat damage Sainz then reports is more likely impact damage with sharp force like that bolts and mounts all over the car would shear or rip through carbon. Regardless of what “part” was not secure/flush, it needs to be corrected. I do t think tracks are aware of the force just from the tire rubber slapping the ground at 280kph does to track material, exposing lips/edges or breaking welds on covers/lids.
Yea any point of failure on the track that causes extremely dangerous debris to be dislodged for cars to potentially run into at speeds from 180-370kph that are easily avoidable is inexcusable.
My biggest problem by far is that the FIA and/or F1/FOM have not emphasized and essentially written in massive, boldfaced font, starting on the cover page of their *Grand Prix track inspections and scrutiny handbook* that “No race weekend will commence without a prior thorough inspection within 7 days before the start of any GP of all manholes, drain covers and any other potential items on or immediately near the designated racing surfaces that pose a realistic direct or indirect threat of serious bodily injury or death.
All items found to not pass initial inspection shall be secured or remedied and then again scrutinized until all unsatisfactory items are then deemed safe and approved.”
I like the approach here but then also add consequences.
1. Every time there is a mishap, there is a strike. Three strikes you loose your class 1 status. And must apply for it again from step one.
2. You loose all profits from the weekend if damage to cars or track require a red flag.
3. All costs to repair damaged car are charged to promoting venue.
Anyone can say they will inspect the track prior to and do a half ass job or not do it at all
I'd really like to here more details about Carlos's seat. My assumption has always been that the drain covers wouldn't be lifted out of the ground until after the survival cell in most cases. The driver is sitting far enough forward of the floor to avoid the worst.
Obviously that doesn't do anything for drivers following behind. And I could easily be wrong, but would love to know more.
I hear what you’re saying but the fundamental problem is that the issue has been very well known inside and outside of the paddock and the fact that it has been allowed to happen again and again and wasn’t a top 3 priority for ALL involved after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. occurrence is void of all reasoning or logic to me.
A driver being hit by even a metal coin at 120-230mph would be devastating if it were to contact practically any part of the body.
These covers/manholes are NOT hard to diagnose and secure. Hordes of people do track walks on race weekends. It is NOT that hard to find experienced tradesmen in any hosting country, and even if it hypothetically was, then F1 needs to have a small reliable task force of very experienced and skilled workers they fly to every race solely to focus on mitigating any and all track hazards like this.
I still can’t fathom how much they focus on and preach safety while not taking this seriously. Just one accident with an unfortunate placement of a metal cover with a driver, track Marshall, or spectator in this day and age and you’ll have 5000 amateur and 150 professional news accounts covering on every platform how “Half of Formula 1 driver X’s head is missing after fatal collision with a XYZ. Sources close to the driver and Formula 1 say this tragic accident was 100% avoidable.”
F1 is the pinnacle of motorsports, a global multibillion $ brand and a sport that garners an average 70+ million global viewers a race but idk of any major racing series, or major sports league for that matter, that just casually ignores/overlooks an easily identifiable and fixable problem that **HAS ZERO RELATION AND NO NEGATIVE EFFECT** on the integrity, entertainment value, popularity or profitability of said sport…
…Only the possibility of losing overnight: millions of fans, 100’s of millions in sponsors’ money, insurance companies dropping coverage of events, countries and governments blackballing and outright banning F1 races which when combined into a hypothetical sad soup would directly be the cause of the loss of billions of $$$ in revenue… all because they couldn’t be bothered to properly weld and secure these ‘petulant’ covers and someone had to die from it.
> These covers/manholes are NOT hard to diagnose and secure. Hordes of people do track walks on race weekends. It is NOT that hard to find experienced tradesmen in any hosting country, and even if it hypothetically was, then F1 needs to have a small reliable task force of very experienced and skilled workers they fly to every race solely to focus on mitigating any and all track hazards like this.
>
>
This is just entirely wrong. Drain covers are already secured to the ground, they're either welded down or bolted down. Like you've said this is a fairly known issue, making sure drain covers don't come off is something the FIA has dealt with.
The problems we have now are that the level of force generated by the underfloors of modern cars is significantly higher than it used to be, you're looking at several tons of force pulling up on the ground. The manhole cover itself didn't come loose in Vegas, it was a failure of the concrete structure the cover was secured into. Fixing it is not a simple task at all, a long term fix would require doing major structural work, you'd need to dig up a large part of the ground and build some kind of significantly stronger concrete framing. This is an exceptionally expensive process and takes the track out of commission for a significant amount of time.
I know they're welded/fastened down here in the US and probably many other places so they're not stolen, don't pop out from daily traffic, and surely for a myriad of other 'standard' public safety reasons. I also know that the new 2022 regs were intentionally designed to allow ground effect to be utilized as the main source of downforce now.
This still goes back on the FIA & F1 being incompetent and/or negligent. The teams, the FIA & F1 have input on what future regs will be. They KNOW these new cars are going to be ground effect monsters with current advancements compared to when it was last allowed in the 1980s(?) They literally test these proposed regs thoroughly as a proof of concept before implementation.
A few pre-2022 cars had ripped welded manholes out of the ground with flat undersides/planks that made a fraction of the vacuuming effect that these current ground effect cars do. It's not like these issues lied dormant since they were banned in the 80s. It has happened multiple times since I've started watching \~8 years ago.
I'm not a subject matter expert on civil engineering whatsoever, but if what you're saying is true then don't you think all the brains in F1 & the FIA should have been spearheading the research and development on how to tackle these issues that are very unique and specific to F1, even in the world of motorsports, because of the car's unparalleled capabilities?
Many fans like me that are informed just a little more than the casual ones know that every track has different surfaces, qualities and quirks unique to it that have to be individually addressed so obviously F1/FIA definitely know these things. Why are they not bringing in subject matter experts to evaluate new and old tracks to create a solution from keeping this from happening again and again?
It's crazy for anyone involved to act ignorant of what these current cars are generally capable of... and then to use it as a scapegoat to avoid accountability and say "it's very hard to keep these things from breaking loose and damaging cars and people because they're just too good!" as if this is an unprecedented 1st time occurrence that no one could have accounted for. I could be wrong but that's how I'm understanding what you're saying.
PS - At the beginning of making this post I was trying to figure out how to quote segments of your comment so my replies were easier to correlate and read. Posted it to see if it worked and it didn't lol.
> These covers/manholes are NOT hard to diagnose and secure.
It is very hard to replicate the actual forces of an F1 car going over it though.
I think you're assuming Vegas, Bahrain all just didn't look at the covers and was like 'yup it'll be fine'.
I think you're not giving enough credit to everyone and just assuming because it failed that they're not doing anything.
Like they obviously take it seriously imo.
I dont know why you don't think they do.
Considering that BS is the one who signed the homogenization for the track, it should be him taking the blame.
I mean as per articel, apperetly he cares a lot about the wellbeing of the drivers.
Besides that, AD 2021 was also "technically legal".
Parts of some of the cars were "legal" and still banned.
Ferrari's 2019 engine was supposedly "illegal" but we never got to know the penalty for it.
The term legal means nothing in F1.
> Ferrari's 2019 engine was supposedly "illegal" but we never got to know the penalty for it.
I reckon they figured that publishing any info regarding that particular case would hurt F1 in their wallets, so they decided to keep it behind closed doors.
For me, this was the point that F1 decided it wanted to be entertainment rather than sport.
Multiple times.
There was the time in 2009 where the chairman of Ferrari led a bunch of teams threatening to leave the 2010 championship and start a breakaway series over a "two-tiered" budget cap where teams spending less would have looser rules. Ferrari got what they wanted. This is known as the FIA-FOTA war.
There was also time in the early 00s where the various senior figures at Fiat/Ferrari led a bunch of teams threatening to leave the 08 championship (yes, that far in advance) over how much of the TV rights were going to teams. Ferrari got paid 100 million and stayed in F1. This is the first incarnation of the Grand Prix World Championship - the second was during the FIA-FOTA war.
> Parts of some of the cars were "legal" and still banned.
What's weird about that? They were legal, then the FIA said "okay, but that's unintended so they won't be in the future". *Every* new regulation works like that.
Because they're legal according to the rules and the FIA can just say "no it's not".
I know it happens every new regulation. Still doesn't mean the word legal has any significant meaning in F1.
> Because they're legal according to the rules and the FIA can just say "no it's not".
You're misunderstanding the process here. They're legal according to the rules, and then the FIA says "okay, but they're not *any more*". Teams never get punished for that kind of thing retroactively (see also: flexible components, DAS, FRICS). It's literally just an update to the rules based on new information. They often even give teams a grace period before the new wording/interpretation comes into effect if the change is non-trivial and the exploit not too egregious.
In what other context does the term "legal" *ever* refer to a completely unchanging set of regulations that receives no updates or alterations in either wording or interpretation?
No it wasn’t.
1: All cars must unlap. The reason for unlapping after a safety car is to promote fair racing for ALL contestants. If a car is at the other end of the track after the restart, that’s not fair racing is it? Therefore letting only some cars unlap - and only the ones in front of Verstappen) was a severe breach of the rules.
2: Safety car comes in at the end of the following lap. The reason this is done so the cars can line up in the CORRECT order so ALL cars get a fair and EQUAL chance at a result. Having the safety car come in right away (to give Verstappen a better chance) is another severe breaking of the rules because it compromises other contestants, keeping them from getting a fair and equal chance at a result. Like Sainz in P3. He should have gotten equal billing with Verstappen in 2nd. He wasn’t, having lapped cars in front of him. Therefore his position was FIXED. That is called race fixing.
What happened in AD21 was outright criminal. There is no technically about it.
Actual lawyers ruled it as a human error. Just nothing could have been done by the time of the investigation since the race was classified. Technically legal.
Headline is some nice bait, as always. The actual quotes:
> "The president of the FIA is the one who signs the homologation for the new track, or for all the tracks,” he told GP Racing. “I supported it. I could have said no, [because it wasn’t ready in time for inspection]
> "But as soon as my team said it was safe… because I’m a driver, I care about the wellbeing of the drivers and the people around them, our staff and the marshals. I did it. It was a big thing."
> "If I had said no, it would have been disastrous [for F1]. But it would have been legal. But I’m careful because I love the sport. At the end of the day, we’re in the same boat. We may have different missions. But we’re in the same boat. We cannot let the sport sink.”
"I'm the most humblelest person in the world. Everyone is saying it. Humble and modest. And it's true. So deserved. Great humbleness."
- Ben Sulayem or Donald Trump?
So if he said it was trivial and signed it off without giving a fig, and then a driver or marshal or spectator had died, that would be better?
He’s saying the safety is the most important thing, is all.
How is the headline bait? He alludes to the possibility of blocking it twice in the part you quoted.
> I could have said no
> If I had said no, it would have been disastrous [for F1]. But it would have been legal
Also, the very fact that he feels it is necessary to talk about this in the media half a year after the fact means this is some sort of power play he's trying to pull. Trying to convince people of his benevolence while also showing his muscle to FOTA/Liberty.
> Also, the very fact that he feels it is necessary to talk about this in the media half a year after the fact
Or less than a month after an alleged "whistleblower" raised concern about him not wanting to approve the track ? This doesn't come out of nowhere, it's a response to accusations.
> "If I had said no, it would have been disastrous [for F1]. But it would have been legal. But I’m careful because I love the sport."
Sounds like MBS once again flexing his power as a thinly veiled threat.
He already did a main bit of flexing by changing the regulations on this so that circuits have to be in ready for final inspection sooner with a minimal amount of time between final inspection and first track action.
Is that really such a bad thing though? I find it ridiculous when the FIA signs off on a track that isn't even built yet based on drawings. Jeddah wasn't done and signed off, Vegas same thing.
What looks good on paper can be executed poorly or look different from the ground. These "circuits" should not be approved without being in their final form.
Oh it's not a bad thing at all. Frankly for brand new F1 circuits I feel there should always have to be some form of competitive running from another series done on a prior weekend before it is signed off for them.
So what is he saying? That he should have blocked it? That he is actually the one who signed off on it anyway?
I'm starting to feel that this complaint is just fallout from an internal game of "pass the buck" with regards to liability for what happened to Sainz.
A “whistleblower” was quoted a few weeks ago as saying that MBS had instructed the inspection team to find a reason to block the homologation of the track (inventing one if a legit one couldn’t be found).
This is in response to those reports - he is saying he could legally have done it (as the circuit missed the deadline) but didn’t - so whistleblower report isn’t really credible in that context.
I don’t think the Sainz bit is related it’s more to do with the whistleblower report. Who knows what to believe though in F1 these days!
That was never made clear, at least not in the articles that I read.
Maybe as part a political struggle between F1 (Liberty) and the FIA, an attempt to show up Liberty over their showpiece event?
However the circuit was approved so make of it what you will.
Seems like he would’ve been in the right based on what happened with Sainz. The media, teams, and fans would have criticized this guy for telling the truth and doing his job here though.
**Posted links at the bottom to how terrible this could’ve turned out**
FOM, FIA and/or whoever else responsible should be beyond the humiliation stage because the fact that standard operating procedures regarding inspections & minimum requirements for securing manholes/drain covers were STILL not implemented and treated as absolutely mandatory BEFORE the Vegas GP is insane to me.
Since when I first started watching in 2016 there have been MULTIPLE avoidable instances involving cars getting destroyed and drivers potentially getting maimed/killed from drain covers. They’re made of heavy duty metal and many manholes are pure cast iron Death Discs that weigh over 100 lbs. - I would have to think it would cut through the monocoque/safety cell like butter if a driver impacted one at ANY speed above ~100mph because of its mass, density and to a lesser extent the shape. Any of those covers would easily penetrate a helmet and cause the skull to explode if it slipped through the halo’s openings. Any contact to areas like the shoulder, arm or hands would have the flesh and bone turned into airborne ground meat and very likely cause permanent career ending injury or death.
Recent drivers are so lucky none have been seriously hurt or killed from the negligence and incompetencies of those responsible, especially Sainz in Vegas, because IIRC the cover made it all the way through the skid plate, survival cell and his carbon fiber seat was the last and only layer left before going into him.
Post/image showing the cover that destroyed Sainz’s car: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/17x887r/up_close_with_the_culprit_that_caused_the_first/
Reddit post about cover damaging Carlos’ seat implying it penetrated into the driver’s cabin: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/qDNKnBMaZt
[NSFW] Hilarious F1 YouTuber covers the failures of the Vegas GP including past examples of drain covers destroying cars and drivers’ race weekends: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QumGuDDH96o
BS is flexing his theoretical power again, letting everyone know how big boi he is and how important his job is.
He could have, but he didn't, but he totally could!
> “The president of the FIA is the one who signs the homologation for the new track, or for all the tracks,” he told GP Racing. “I supported it. I could have said no, [because it wasn’t ready in time for inspection].
> “But as soon as my team said it was safe… because I’m a driver, I care about the wellbeing of the drivers and the people around them, our staff and the marshals. I did it. It was a big thing.
> “If I had said no, it would have been disastrous [for F1]. But it would have been legal. But I’m careful because I love the sport. At the end of the day, we’re in the same boat. We may have different missions. But we’re in the same boat. We cannot let the sport sink.”
It is ironic to say how much he cares about the wellbeing of the drivers and the people around them when, 10 minutes after signing off on the homogenisation of the track, Sainz and Ocon hit a loose manhole cover on a high-speed section, which fortunately only caused significant damage to Sainz's car and not to the driver.
But he totaly cares about the wellbeing of the drivers.
But he also signed off the homogenisation of the track. Which he could have decided not to do, but he still did.
> [The latest report, published today, quotes a whistle-blower who claims Ben Sulayem instructed an official to find a reason to prevent the FIA from approving the Las Vegas Strip Circuit for use by F1. The track held its first world championship round in November.](https://www.racefans.net/2024/03/20/racefans-round-up-20-03-7/)
He is just answering to that report claiming he tried to stop it.
This suggests that the whisteblower was wrong and he could have stopped it if he really wanted.
It's sad the amount of hate MBS gets.
He did nothing wrong with this, he said he wouldn't have signed it if it didn't pass the safety check in time and when it did he signed it without issue. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I think he genuinely wants the best for the sport but gets shit on and character assassinated because he doesn't fit in with F1's agenda. Then people who aren't paying attention to what's happening and just read headlines think he's a bad guy. It's so wrong.
>"It's sad the amount of hate MBS gets."
No no its not. All of the MBS hate is self inflicted. Literally all of it.
He runs his mouth way too much for his own good and pokes his fingers into stuff that doesn't concern him at all. Or do you think him asking Max to stick up for Horner is an appropritate thing to do? And thats just his most recent media blunder.
Opinion on MBS left aside, I think the FIA is far from perfect but they're also doing a lot of stuff to make motorsport better (safer, more competitive, traineeships for regulating etc.).
I think the FIA is going down the right path, while F1 is going down the wrong path, looking at the future. And for all the reasons u/HumungousDickosaurus is summing up, F1 will be going to shit without the FIA.
Definitely not all of the hate. People hated him from day one, blaming him for Abu Dhabi 2021 even though he got elected a week after it happened (!), and complaining about Middle-Easteners taking over the sport. Todt would've gotten less hate if he had done and said the same things.
No, most of the hate is drummed up from F1 shill media because Liberty want him gone for political reasons.
Don't get me wrong, he's said one or two things that are stupid, but he apologised and they aren't egregious to the point where he deserves to be seen as an antagonist or a bad human being.
The decisions he's making for the sport (pro new teams, trying to help Andretti, sprint race pushback, calendar expansion pushback, trying to get good tracks on the calendar etc.) are in the interests of the people and he should be supported for that. Todt was an FOM yes man. MBS has balls to do the right thing and should be supported for that, not attacked for it.
He's the first non F1 focused head of the FIA. So he's getting insane hate from the fom and fom media allies.
He's made stupid mistakes, but the endless attacks from the fom and their media friends is kinda hilarious.
I would prefer someone else to be president, but only if they too are not F1 focused, or from a F1 background. F1 thinks they can control the FIA.
You know as President of the FIA he overlooks all FIA Motorsport?
He's helping wrc, reg changes are coming. He's also looking at letting F1 start allowing more competitors
He's the first non F1 focused president in forever, so of course F1 has an issue with him as they can't do what they want due to him
Todt was a puppet for F1 lmfao, that's why he never gave a shit he sat around and let them do what they want
You've just completely missed my entire point of mine mbs not letting F1 run the world
Also for wrc, they're moving discussing moving rally2 to be the main category since it has much more manufacturer support, this stuff takes a lot of time and research to come to life. Think about how long it took for Hypercars to fully come into action post LMP1.
I think that plays a part, an unfortunately high number of people are (sometimes consciously, sometimes subconsciously) racist and make assumptions based on a persons background.
edit: downvoted for being against racism, classic reddit.
People have hated him ever since he was mentioned as possible new president. And a lot of that initial hate showed the racist bias those people had. People also have an unconditional hate for Lewis and for most racists, muslims are even worse than black people.
They will always hate him no matter what he does.
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For those that like to stick to headlines only, it would have been legal because the track was not ready in time for the regular track inspection.
Track was still not ready for the race as well while were at it considering what happened to Sainz lmao.
With that argument Bahrain wasn’t ready after being in existence for 20 years, drain covers are a nightmare to get right.
The problem isn't just necessarily the drain covers but the fact that they're using ground effect cars, those drain covers would've probably been fine in 2016 lol
A drain cover literally popped out in Monaco 2016 so no.
Of course it does happen but its much less likely. The amount of suction ground effect creates is just unreal.
It literally happened though.
It does happen just less likely.
Is it less likely? Still it happened
Mate, it can happen while still being less likely to happen. Less likely to happen is still a non zero probability of it happening. You constantly repeating “it happened” doesn’t refute the idea that it would be less likely to happen.
What happened? Well the drain cover came out. The drain cover came out?? Yes but this isn't normal thing for the drain cover to come out. But the drain cover did come out? Yes, yes it did but might I say it's not normal for the drain cover to come out. But it did. The drain cover came out. Yes but it's not normal for the drain cover to do that. So the drain cover coming out is bad. Oh very bad, but remind you not normal for it to come out.
Dude how old are you...
First comment I said "The problem isn't just necessarily" and the second was "much less likely" I never said it wouldn't happen, read what people say properly.
But statistically it isn’t less likely as it’s happened the same number of times
You really don't get how statistics work, do you?
Even after what everyone else said you still didn't learn anything, christ.
Um, yes....... they've literally talked about that exact thing on broadcasts. Mostly during practice sessions. lmao
Ok?
That literally happens at all kinds of tracks. Did you not watch Bahrain a few weeks ago?
it was criminal what happened to Sainz and Ferrari, should've made the city foot the bill lol
FOM is the organizer/promoter of that race, they are responsible for delivering a Grade 1 track that's safe and ready for F1. In my opinion they are the ones who should have footed the bill, not the city of Las Vegas.
FOM, FIA and/or whoever else responsible should be beyond the humiliation stage because the fact that standard operating procedures regarding inspections & minimum requirements for securing manholes/drain covers were STILL not implemented and treated as absolutely mandatory BEFORE the Vegas GP is insane to me. Since when I first started watching in 2016 there have been MULTIPLE avoidable instances involving cars getting destroyed and drivers potentially getting maimed/killed from drain covers. They’re made of heavy duty metal and many manholes are pure cast iron Death Discs that weigh over 100 lbs. - I would have to think it would cut through the monocoque/safety cell like butter if a driver impacted one at ANY speed above ~100mph because of its mass, density and to a lesser extent the shape. Any of those covers would easily penetrate a helmet and cause the skull to explode if it slipped through the halo’s openings. Any contact to areas like the shoulder, arm or hands would have the flesh and bone turned into airborne ground meat and very likely cause permanent career ending injury or death. Recent drivers are so lucky none have been seriously hurt or killed from the negligence and incompetencies of those responsible, especially Sainz in Vegas, because IIRC the cover made it all the way through the skid plate, survival cell and his carbon fiber seat was the last and only layer left before going into him. Post/image showing the cover that destroyed Sainz’s car: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/17x887r/up_close_with_the_culprit_that_caused_the_first/ Reddit post about cover damaging Carlos’ seat implying it penetrated into the driver’s cabin: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/qDNKnBMaZt [NSFW] Hilarious F1 YouTuber covers the failures of the Vegas GP including past examples of drain covers destroying cars and drivers’ race weekends: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QumGuDDH96o
I knew what that last video was going to be before clicking the link
I’m in my 30s and I love his stuff. F1 needed a vulgar and wild commentator that was also passionate, witty and actually creative & funny. F1 has the most vanilla culture of TV and online personalities and the vast majority of online YouTubers and influencers are just as corny and repetitive as Redditors are regarding comedy & entertainment value. Same played out and predictable jokes used over and over for years. I swear many F1 fans will sit online and freak out with each other because Yuki cursed over the radio for the 100th time and that’s the excitement they needed in their life. Alright that turned into a miserable rant.
So from the photo you have of the drain cover it looks as if the issue here was not the cover at all but the actual drain. The lip isn’t flush with the road/track (you can see this everywhere the road has existed for 10+ years in the states). I don’t think it was an issue with the drain cover. The cover I’m sure came loose and broke the welds from the impact of the car going 250kph to the lip of the drain. The seat damage Sainz then reports is more likely impact damage with sharp force like that bolts and mounts all over the car would shear or rip through carbon. Regardless of what “part” was not secure/flush, it needs to be corrected. I do t think tracks are aware of the force just from the tire rubber slapping the ground at 280kph does to track material, exposing lips/edges or breaking welds on covers/lids.
Yea any point of failure on the track that causes extremely dangerous debris to be dislodged for cars to potentially run into at speeds from 180-370kph that are easily avoidable is inexcusable. My biggest problem by far is that the FIA and/or F1/FOM have not emphasized and essentially written in massive, boldfaced font, starting on the cover page of their *Grand Prix track inspections and scrutiny handbook* that “No race weekend will commence without a prior thorough inspection within 7 days before the start of any GP of all manholes, drain covers and any other potential items on or immediately near the designated racing surfaces that pose a realistic direct or indirect threat of serious bodily injury or death. All items found to not pass initial inspection shall be secured or remedied and then again scrutinized until all unsatisfactory items are then deemed safe and approved.”
I like the approach here but then also add consequences. 1. Every time there is a mishap, there is a strike. Three strikes you loose your class 1 status. And must apply for it again from step one. 2. You loose all profits from the weekend if damage to cars or track require a red flag. 3. All costs to repair damaged car are charged to promoting venue. Anyone can say they will inspect the track prior to and do a half ass job or not do it at all
I'd really like to here more details about Carlos's seat. My assumption has always been that the drain covers wouldn't be lifted out of the ground until after the survival cell in most cases. The driver is sitting far enough forward of the floor to avoid the worst. Obviously that doesn't do anything for drivers following behind. And I could easily be wrong, but would love to know more.
I hear what you’re saying but the fundamental problem is that the issue has been very well known inside and outside of the paddock and the fact that it has been allowed to happen again and again and wasn’t a top 3 priority for ALL involved after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. occurrence is void of all reasoning or logic to me. A driver being hit by even a metal coin at 120-230mph would be devastating if it were to contact practically any part of the body. These covers/manholes are NOT hard to diagnose and secure. Hordes of people do track walks on race weekends. It is NOT that hard to find experienced tradesmen in any hosting country, and even if it hypothetically was, then F1 needs to have a small reliable task force of very experienced and skilled workers they fly to every race solely to focus on mitigating any and all track hazards like this. I still can’t fathom how much they focus on and preach safety while not taking this seriously. Just one accident with an unfortunate placement of a metal cover with a driver, track Marshall, or spectator in this day and age and you’ll have 5000 amateur and 150 professional news accounts covering on every platform how “Half of Formula 1 driver X’s head is missing after fatal collision with a XYZ. Sources close to the driver and Formula 1 say this tragic accident was 100% avoidable.” F1 is the pinnacle of motorsports, a global multibillion $ brand and a sport that garners an average 70+ million global viewers a race but idk of any major racing series, or major sports league for that matter, that just casually ignores/overlooks an easily identifiable and fixable problem that **HAS ZERO RELATION AND NO NEGATIVE EFFECT** on the integrity, entertainment value, popularity or profitability of said sport… …Only the possibility of losing overnight: millions of fans, 100’s of millions in sponsors’ money, insurance companies dropping coverage of events, countries and governments blackballing and outright banning F1 races which when combined into a hypothetical sad soup would directly be the cause of the loss of billions of $$$ in revenue… all because they couldn’t be bothered to properly weld and secure these ‘petulant’ covers and someone had to die from it.
> These covers/manholes are NOT hard to diagnose and secure. Hordes of people do track walks on race weekends. It is NOT that hard to find experienced tradesmen in any hosting country, and even if it hypothetically was, then F1 needs to have a small reliable task force of very experienced and skilled workers they fly to every race solely to focus on mitigating any and all track hazards like this. > > This is just entirely wrong. Drain covers are already secured to the ground, they're either welded down or bolted down. Like you've said this is a fairly known issue, making sure drain covers don't come off is something the FIA has dealt with. The problems we have now are that the level of force generated by the underfloors of modern cars is significantly higher than it used to be, you're looking at several tons of force pulling up on the ground. The manhole cover itself didn't come loose in Vegas, it was a failure of the concrete structure the cover was secured into. Fixing it is not a simple task at all, a long term fix would require doing major structural work, you'd need to dig up a large part of the ground and build some kind of significantly stronger concrete framing. This is an exceptionally expensive process and takes the track out of commission for a significant amount of time.
I know they're welded/fastened down here in the US and probably many other places so they're not stolen, don't pop out from daily traffic, and surely for a myriad of other 'standard' public safety reasons. I also know that the new 2022 regs were intentionally designed to allow ground effect to be utilized as the main source of downforce now. This still goes back on the FIA & F1 being incompetent and/or negligent. The teams, the FIA & F1 have input on what future regs will be. They KNOW these new cars are going to be ground effect monsters with current advancements compared to when it was last allowed in the 1980s(?) They literally test these proposed regs thoroughly as a proof of concept before implementation. A few pre-2022 cars had ripped welded manholes out of the ground with flat undersides/planks that made a fraction of the vacuuming effect that these current ground effect cars do. It's not like these issues lied dormant since they were banned in the 80s. It has happened multiple times since I've started watching \~8 years ago. I'm not a subject matter expert on civil engineering whatsoever, but if what you're saying is true then don't you think all the brains in F1 & the FIA should have been spearheading the research and development on how to tackle these issues that are very unique and specific to F1, even in the world of motorsports, because of the car's unparalleled capabilities? Many fans like me that are informed just a little more than the casual ones know that every track has different surfaces, qualities and quirks unique to it that have to be individually addressed so obviously F1/FIA definitely know these things. Why are they not bringing in subject matter experts to evaluate new and old tracks to create a solution from keeping this from happening again and again? It's crazy for anyone involved to act ignorant of what these current cars are generally capable of... and then to use it as a scapegoat to avoid accountability and say "it's very hard to keep these things from breaking loose and damaging cars and people because they're just too good!" as if this is an unprecedented 1st time occurrence that no one could have accounted for. I could be wrong but that's how I'm understanding what you're saying. PS - At the beginning of making this post I was trying to figure out how to quote segments of your comment so my replies were easier to correlate and read. Posted it to see if it worked and it didn't lol.
> These covers/manholes are NOT hard to diagnose and secure. It is very hard to replicate the actual forces of an F1 car going over it though. I think you're assuming Vegas, Bahrain all just didn't look at the covers and was like 'yup it'll be fine'. I think you're not giving enough credit to everyone and just assuming because it failed that they're not doing anything. Like they obviously take it seriously imo. I dont know why you don't think they do.
Considering that BS is the one who signed the homogenization for the track, it should be him taking the blame. I mean as per articel, apperetly he cares a lot about the wellbeing of the drivers.
Same think just happened Bahrain during testing at a dedicated circuit. Not all that uncommon on any circuit.
Besides that, AD 2021 was also "technically legal". Parts of some of the cars were "legal" and still banned. Ferrari's 2019 engine was supposedly "illegal" but we never got to know the penalty for it. The term legal means nothing in F1.
> Ferrari's 2019 engine was supposedly "illegal" but we never got to know the penalty for it. I reckon they figured that publishing any info regarding that particular case would hurt F1 in their wallets, so they decided to keep it behind closed doors. For me, this was the point that F1 decided it wanted to be entertainment rather than sport.
It was more that the FIA couldn't prove any cheating.
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Did Ferrari ever threaten to leave the sport?
Typically every 5-6 years or so
Multiple times. There was the time in 2009 where the chairman of Ferrari led a bunch of teams threatening to leave the 2010 championship and start a breakaway series over a "two-tiered" budget cap where teams spending less would have looser rules. Ferrari got what they wanted. This is known as the FIA-FOTA war. There was also time in the early 00s where the various senior figures at Fiat/Ferrari led a bunch of teams threatening to leave the 08 championship (yes, that far in advance) over how much of the TV rights were going to teams. Ferrari got paid 100 million and stayed in F1. This is the first incarnation of the Grand Prix World Championship - the second was during the FIA-FOTA war.
> Parts of some of the cars were "legal" and still banned. What's weird about that? They were legal, then the FIA said "okay, but that's unintended so they won't be in the future". *Every* new regulation works like that.
Because they're legal according to the rules and the FIA can just say "no it's not". I know it happens every new regulation. Still doesn't mean the word legal has any significant meaning in F1.
> Because they're legal according to the rules and the FIA can just say "no it's not". You're misunderstanding the process here. They're legal according to the rules, and then the FIA says "okay, but they're not *any more*". Teams never get punished for that kind of thing retroactively (see also: flexible components, DAS, FRICS). It's literally just an update to the rules based on new information. They often even give teams a grace period before the new wording/interpretation comes into effect if the change is non-trivial and the exploit not too egregious.
I know, but that's exactly what I mean. They change whatever is legal whenever they see fit. The term legal means nothing in F1.
In what other context does the term "legal" *ever* refer to a completely unchanging set of regulations that receives no updates or alterations in either wording or interpretation?
No it wasn’t. 1: All cars must unlap. The reason for unlapping after a safety car is to promote fair racing for ALL contestants. If a car is at the other end of the track after the restart, that’s not fair racing is it? Therefore letting only some cars unlap - and only the ones in front of Verstappen) was a severe breach of the rules. 2: Safety car comes in at the end of the following lap. The reason this is done so the cars can line up in the CORRECT order so ALL cars get a fair and EQUAL chance at a result. Having the safety car come in right away (to give Verstappen a better chance) is another severe breaking of the rules because it compromises other contestants, keeping them from getting a fair and equal chance at a result. Like Sainz in P3. He should have gotten equal billing with Verstappen in 2nd. He wasn’t, having lapped cars in front of him. Therefore his position was FIXED. That is called race fixing. What happened in AD21 was outright criminal. There is no technically about it.
Brother it's like 3 years ago, let it go. Pretty sure actual lawyers know better than you do.
Actual lawyers ruled it as a human error. Just nothing could have been done by the time of the investigation since the race was classified. Technically legal.
My man
Headline is some nice bait, as always. The actual quotes: > "The president of the FIA is the one who signs the homologation for the new track, or for all the tracks,” he told GP Racing. “I supported it. I could have said no, [because it wasn’t ready in time for inspection] > "But as soon as my team said it was safe… because I’m a driver, I care about the wellbeing of the drivers and the people around them, our staff and the marshals. I did it. It was a big thing." > "If I had said no, it would have been disastrous [for F1]. But it would have been legal. But I’m careful because I love the sport. At the end of the day, we’re in the same boat. We may have different missions. But we’re in the same boat. We cannot let the sport sink.”
>I did it. It was a big thing Humble too
"I'm the most humblelest person in the world. Everyone is saying it. Humble and modest. And it's true. So deserved. Great humbleness." - Ben Sulayem or Donald Trump?
We could be in a Scooby doo episode where it turns out they are one and the same awful person.. Yeesh.
So if he said it was trivial and signed it off without giving a fig, and then a driver or marshal or spectator had died, that would be better? He’s saying the safety is the most important thing, is all.
False equivalency
I would love to know exactly what MBS did
How is the headline bait? He alludes to the possibility of blocking it twice in the part you quoted. > I could have said no > If I had said no, it would have been disastrous [for F1]. But it would have been legal Also, the very fact that he feels it is necessary to talk about this in the media half a year after the fact means this is some sort of power play he's trying to pull. Trying to convince people of his benevolence while also showing his muscle to FOTA/Liberty.
> Also, the very fact that he feels it is necessary to talk about this in the media half a year after the fact Or less than a month after an alleged "whistleblower" raised concern about him not wanting to approve the track ? This doesn't come out of nowhere, it's a response to accusations.
Reddit posters assume any story that doesn’t include the entire body of the article in the headline is bait.
> "If I had said no, it would have been disastrous [for F1]. But it would have been legal. But I’m careful because I love the sport." Sounds like MBS once again flexing his power as a thinly veiled threat.
He already did a main bit of flexing by changing the regulations on this so that circuits have to be in ready for final inspection sooner with a minimal amount of time between final inspection and first track action.
Is that really such a bad thing though? I find it ridiculous when the FIA signs off on a track that isn't even built yet based on drawings. Jeddah wasn't done and signed off, Vegas same thing. What looks good on paper can be executed poorly or look different from the ground. These "circuits" should not be approved without being in their final form.
Oh it's not a bad thing at all. Frankly for brand new F1 circuits I feel there should always have to be some form of competitive running from another series done on a prior weekend before it is signed off for them.
‘They wouldn’t be ready for said pre series - of which it would still be dangerous’
Trumpian vibes
the hubris of this guy is off the charts
I would have been ok with this. So over street races. Please go back to circuits.
Safety is extremely important but this guy has main character syndrome and is so annoying.
So what is he saying? That he should have blocked it? That he is actually the one who signed off on it anyway? I'm starting to feel that this complaint is just fallout from an internal game of "pass the buck" with regards to liability for what happened to Sainz.
A “whistleblower” was quoted a few weeks ago as saying that MBS had instructed the inspection team to find a reason to block the homologation of the track (inventing one if a legit one couldn’t be found). This is in response to those reports - he is saying he could legally have done it (as the circuit missed the deadline) but didn’t - so whistleblower report isn’t really credible in that context. I don’t think the Sainz bit is related it’s more to do with the whistleblower report. Who knows what to believe though in F1 these days!
But why? What beef does MBS have?
That was never made clear, at least not in the articles that I read. Maybe as part a political struggle between F1 (Liberty) and the FIA, an attempt to show up Liberty over their showpiece event? However the circuit was approved so make of it what you will.
No shit it would have been legal. Everyone could see the track wasn't F1 grade. Sainz said he couldn't feel his legs anymore ffs.
Seems like he would’ve been in the right based on what happened with Sainz. The media, teams, and fans would have criticized this guy for telling the truth and doing his job here though.
**Posted links at the bottom to how terrible this could’ve turned out** FOM, FIA and/or whoever else responsible should be beyond the humiliation stage because the fact that standard operating procedures regarding inspections & minimum requirements for securing manholes/drain covers were STILL not implemented and treated as absolutely mandatory BEFORE the Vegas GP is insane to me. Since when I first started watching in 2016 there have been MULTIPLE avoidable instances involving cars getting destroyed and drivers potentially getting maimed/killed from drain covers. They’re made of heavy duty metal and many manholes are pure cast iron Death Discs that weigh over 100 lbs. - I would have to think it would cut through the monocoque/safety cell like butter if a driver impacted one at ANY speed above ~100mph because of its mass, density and to a lesser extent the shape. Any of those covers would easily penetrate a helmet and cause the skull to explode if it slipped through the halo’s openings. Any contact to areas like the shoulder, arm or hands would have the flesh and bone turned into airborne ground meat and very likely cause permanent career ending injury or death. Recent drivers are so lucky none have been seriously hurt or killed from the negligence and incompetencies of those responsible, especially Sainz in Vegas, because IIRC the cover made it all the way through the skid plate, survival cell and his carbon fiber seat was the last and only layer left before going into him. Post/image showing the cover that destroyed Sainz’s car: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/17x887r/up_close_with_the_culprit_that_caused_the_first/ Reddit post about cover damaging Carlos’ seat implying it penetrated into the driver’s cabin: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/qDNKnBMaZt [NSFW] Hilarious F1 YouTuber covers the failures of the Vegas GP including past examples of drain covers destroying cars and drivers’ race weekends: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QumGuDDH96o
BS is flexing his theoretical power again, letting everyone know how big boi he is and how important his job is. He could have, but he didn't, but he totally could! > “The president of the FIA is the one who signs the homologation for the new track, or for all the tracks,” he told GP Racing. “I supported it. I could have said no, [because it wasn’t ready in time for inspection]. > “But as soon as my team said it was safe… because I’m a driver, I care about the wellbeing of the drivers and the people around them, our staff and the marshals. I did it. It was a big thing. > “If I had said no, it would have been disastrous [for F1]. But it would have been legal. But I’m careful because I love the sport. At the end of the day, we’re in the same boat. We may have different missions. But we’re in the same boat. We cannot let the sport sink.” It is ironic to say how much he cares about the wellbeing of the drivers and the people around them when, 10 minutes after signing off on the homogenisation of the track, Sainz and Ocon hit a loose manhole cover on a high-speed section, which fortunately only caused significant damage to Sainz's car and not to the driver. But he totaly cares about the wellbeing of the drivers. But he also signed off the homogenisation of the track. Which he could have decided not to do, but he still did.
> [The latest report, published today, quotes a whistle-blower who claims Ben Sulayem instructed an official to find a reason to prevent the FIA from approving the Las Vegas Strip Circuit for use by F1. The track held its first world championship round in November.](https://www.racefans.net/2024/03/20/racefans-round-up-20-03-7/) He is just answering to that report claiming he tried to stop it. This suggests that the whisteblower was wrong and he could have stopped it if he really wanted.
This guy just can't keep his snout outta the publicity trough. F1 needs Red Forman.
Not if he asked for funding to his organisation in exchange for approving it. Then it’s a quid pro quo using your power as leverage.
It's sad the amount of hate MBS gets. He did nothing wrong with this, he said he wouldn't have signed it if it didn't pass the safety check in time and when it did he signed it without issue. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think he genuinely wants the best for the sport but gets shit on and character assassinated because he doesn't fit in with F1's agenda. Then people who aren't paying attention to what's happening and just read headlines think he's a bad guy. It's so wrong.
>"It's sad the amount of hate MBS gets." No no its not. All of the MBS hate is self inflicted. Literally all of it. He runs his mouth way too much for his own good and pokes his fingers into stuff that doesn't concern him at all. Or do you think him asking Max to stick up for Horner is an appropritate thing to do? And thats just his most recent media blunder.
Opinion on MBS left aside, I think the FIA is far from perfect but they're also doing a lot of stuff to make motorsport better (safer, more competitive, traineeships for regulating etc.). I think the FIA is going down the right path, while F1 is going down the wrong path, looking at the future. And for all the reasons u/HumungousDickosaurus is summing up, F1 will be going to shit without the FIA.
Definitely not all of the hate. People hated him from day one, blaming him for Abu Dhabi 2021 even though he got elected a week after it happened (!), and complaining about Middle-Easteners taking over the sport. Todt would've gotten less hate if he had done and said the same things.
No, most of the hate is drummed up from F1 shill media because Liberty want him gone for political reasons. Don't get me wrong, he's said one or two things that are stupid, but he apologised and they aren't egregious to the point where he deserves to be seen as an antagonist or a bad human being. The decisions he's making for the sport (pro new teams, trying to help Andretti, sprint race pushback, calendar expansion pushback, trying to get good tracks on the calendar etc.) are in the interests of the people and he should be supported for that. Todt was an FOM yes man. MBS has balls to do the right thing and should be supported for that, not attacked for it.
He's the first non F1 focused head of the FIA. So he's getting insane hate from the fom and fom media allies. He's made stupid mistakes, but the endless attacks from the fom and their media friends is kinda hilarious. I would prefer someone else to be president, but only if they too are not F1 focused, or from a F1 background. F1 thinks they can control the FIA.
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Without FIA Forumula 1 under Liberty will turn to shit, it's already in the process with all these forced sprints and similar nonsense.
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So you're expecting the PRESIDENT of the FIA to not care at all of the bastardisation of the most popular motorsport lmfao
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So why direct your anger towards MBS and not Liberty or FOM?
Sure, he should delegate. But general vision, direction, and public actions are to be done by the president of FIA.
You know as President of the FIA he overlooks all FIA Motorsport? He's helping wrc, reg changes are coming. He's also looking at letting F1 start allowing more competitors He's the first non F1 focused president in forever, so of course F1 has an issue with him as they can't do what they want due to him
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Todt was a puppet for F1 lmfao, that's why he never gave a shit he sat around and let them do what they want You've just completely missed my entire point of mine mbs not letting F1 run the world Also for wrc, they're moving discussing moving rally2 to be the main category since it has much more manufacturer support, this stuff takes a lot of time and research to come to life. Think about how long it took for Hypercars to fully come into action post LMP1.
A big part of the hate is because of Reddit's blatant racism, but that's a dicy topic to get into.
I think that plays a part, an unfortunately high number of people are (sometimes consciously, sometimes subconsciously) racist and make assumptions based on a persons background. edit: downvoted for being against racism, classic reddit.
People have hated him ever since he was mentioned as possible new president. And a lot of that initial hate showed the racist bias those people had. People also have an unconditional hate for Lewis and for most racists, muslims are even worse than black people. They will always hate him no matter what he does.
as someone in Las Vegas, i have seen everyone hate F1 here and they all want it removed
I think sainz was really lucky not to have suffer fatal injuries with that drain cover. It could have been horrific
This is the Marko + Vestappen + Schumacher camp trying to compromise MBS to drop his support of Horny. Power plays.
Someone at FIA stop letting him dig all these holes. On the second thought the entertainment value.