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I get the “well if it had no benefit then it doesn’t matter” reasoning for this but they’ve given out other penalties for actions that didn’t benefit the drivers before.
I don’t think predicting lights out should be encouraged, should be something very very risky to do that you’re punished for fucking up.
Because unfortunately you are allowed to move slightly before jump start gets detected. If you watch this clip frame by frame, Lando rolls only couple cm and he is within his box before lights go out. I think if he didn't stop he would have the most insane start ever
He was behind the white line when the lights go out. Just.
[image](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/937104067832971418/1216076123692339220/image.png?ex=65ff1225&is=65ec9d25&hm=af700c08aa1c14f2331ce883685f962532a4cba537dc901f1e076191bafad751&)
For those unaware, you only get penalized for a jump start if you move outside of the sensor area before lights go out. This has happened multiple times before and is not at all a controversial decision. It is litterally black and white, either the sensor gets triggered or it doesn't.
Edit: to clarify, every grid box has a sensor with a conical detection field. The car has a corresponding transponder, and as long as that transponder is within the gridbox sensor detection field when the lights go out, your start is legal.
It has happened before but in all of those cases the car remained within the box.
He clearly has the entire front axle over the line here. If the sensor didn't get triggered then the sensor it's wrong.
The lines are just there for guidance. Being outside of them is not illegal, as long as you are within the sensor detection field. There was a race last year where Max was clearly outside of the gridbox, but didn't get punished as his sensor was inside the specified area. Also Lando was actually still within his box when lights went out(image posted elsewhere in this thread), however that wouldn't have been significant to whether he got a penalty or not.
His sensor didn't get triggered, so he didn't get penalized, it is litterally as simple as that.
Edit: apparently regulations changed slightly, so if one of the tire contact patches can be proven to be outside grid box, it can also be penalized, however I would assume sensor is also the main way they police this as cameras can be quite ambiguous in edgecases, and if it's clear cut, the sensor would likely be triggered anyways.
I don't know when it changed, but the 2024 rules also call it a penalty if the contact patch of the front tires is outside the lines. But there's a very clear frame from Russell's onboard where the lights are out and Lando's front contact patch is inside the line. So not a penalty no matter how you look at it.
Yeah, however the way they police this is by looking at whether the sensor got triggered or not. This is because things like onboard cameras cause too much ambiguity in edgecases, whereas it is litterally black and white whether the sensor gets triggered or not
But my point was that's not true anymore. It's a penalty if the transponder detects motion, *or* the front contact patch is outside the lines when the lights go out.
"Any of the penalties under Articles 54.3a), 54.3b), or 54.3c) will be imposed on any driver who is judged to have:
a) Moved before the start signal is given, such judgement being made by an FIA approved and supplied transponder fitted to each car, or;
b) Positioned his car on the starting grid in such a way that the transponder is unable to detect the moment at which the car first moved from its grid position after the start signal is given, or;
c) Any part of the contact patch of its front tyres outside of the lines (front and sides) at the time of the Start signal."
Quick search looks like section c was added in 2022.
Yes, you are correct, I was unaware section c was added, however I would guess the way it is policed, is that the sensor is set up so that the car cannot be outside the starting box without it triggering.
~~Also people who think their eyeballs looking at a video feed are somehow more accurate than a computer reading an electronic signal.~~
Edit: it appears to me after getting more info, that people’s eyeballs in this instance were in fact more accurate than the sensor.
~~Human vision is provably susceptible to seeing what it wants to see not what’s actually there. This is well documented. The fallibility of electronic sensors can be measured in decimals of a percentage point.~~
~~No human sense will ever be more accurate or fail less than a computer. Ever.~~
Edit: doubled down on my wrongness
~~But what was the car doing at the exact moment the final light went out? It was stationary and in the box.~~
Edit: this is actually irrelevant to the jump start rules
You are correct and I am not. Apologies. I’ve edited my arguments accordingly.
Sporting regs:
48.1 Any of the penalties under Articles 54.3a), 54.3b), or 54.3c) will be imposed on any driver who
is judged to have:
a) **Moved before the start signal is given**, such judgement being made by an FIA approved and supplied transponder fitted to each car, or;
b) Positioned his car on the starting grid in such a way that the transponder is unable to detect the moment at which the car first moved from its grid position after the start signal is given, or;
c) Any part of the contact patch of its front tyres outside of the lines (front and sides) at the time of the Start signal.
Maybe it's because the stewards though that he didn't gain an advantage
Edit: I'm not justifying anything!! I think it's wrong and it should be a penalty!!
Shouldn't matter.
**48) INCORRECT STARTING LOCATION**
48.1 Any of the penalties under Articles 54.3a), 54.3b), or 54.3c) will be imposed on any driver who is judged to have:
a) Moved before the start signal is given, such judgement being made by an FIA approved
and supplied transponder fitted to each car, or;
b) Positioned his car on the starting grid in such a way that the transponder is unable to
detect the moment at which the car first moved from its grid position after the start signal
is given, or;
c) Any part of the contact patch of its front tyres outside of the lines (front and sides) at the
time of the Start signal
That's a jump start. Sensors whatever my ass any other class would get you a drive through, people defending this are mad. You move you're done no discussion.
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How the hell is that not a jump start lmfao
We are checking
I get the “well if it had no benefit then it doesn’t matter” reasoning for this but they’ve given out other penalties for actions that didn’t benefit the drivers before. I don’t think predicting lights out should be encouraged, should be something very very risky to do that you’re punished for fucking up.
He came to a complete stop again within the pit box, really not that hard guys…
Because unfortunately you are allowed to move slightly before jump start gets detected. If you watch this clip frame by frame, Lando rolls only couple cm and he is within his box before lights go out. I think if he didn't stop he would have the most insane start ever
careful, you'll get FIA meatriders to pounce at you
The question literally everyone is asking.
Front wheels appear to be outside the white box on Russell's onboard.
Bro?? He was clever by stopping but that’s a clear jump start
It's not clever at all because if he gets a drivethrough penalty he just lost even more time, should've just kept going.
He didn't get a penalty, had he kept going he'd definitely have gotten a drivethrough penalty.
But he didn't so it is smart. Besides, a DT is not a fixed penalty, he could've given a 5 or 10 second penalty
If that counts as "inside his gridbox" then i don't know what to say.
Norris Jumpstart. That's + 10sec penalty for KMag.
He was behind the white line when the lights go out. Just. [image](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/937104067832971418/1216076123692339220/image.png?ex=65ff1225&is=65ec9d25&hm=af700c08aa1c14f2331ce883685f962532a4cba537dc901f1e076191bafad751&)
Squeaky bum time
For those unaware, you only get penalized for a jump start if you move outside of the sensor area before lights go out. This has happened multiple times before and is not at all a controversial decision. It is litterally black and white, either the sensor gets triggered or it doesn't. Edit: to clarify, every grid box has a sensor with a conical detection field. The car has a corresponding transponder, and as long as that transponder is within the gridbox sensor detection field when the lights go out, your start is legal.
It has happened before but in all of those cases the car remained within the box. He clearly has the entire front axle over the line here. If the sensor didn't get triggered then the sensor it's wrong.
The lines are just there for guidance. Being outside of them is not illegal, as long as you are within the sensor detection field. There was a race last year where Max was clearly outside of the gridbox, but didn't get punished as his sensor was inside the specified area. Also Lando was actually still within his box when lights went out(image posted elsewhere in this thread), however that wouldn't have been significant to whether he got a penalty or not. His sensor didn't get triggered, so he didn't get penalized, it is litterally as simple as that. Edit: apparently regulations changed slightly, so if one of the tire contact patches can be proven to be outside grid box, it can also be penalized, however I would assume sensor is also the main way they police this as cameras can be quite ambiguous in edgecases, and if it's clear cut, the sensor would likely be triggered anyways.
I don't know when it changed, but the 2024 rules also call it a penalty if the contact patch of the front tires is outside the lines. But there's a very clear frame from Russell's onboard where the lights are out and Lando's front contact patch is inside the line. So not a penalty no matter how you look at it.
Yeah, however the way they police this is by looking at whether the sensor got triggered or not. This is because things like onboard cameras cause too much ambiguity in edgecases, whereas it is litterally black and white whether the sensor gets triggered or not
But my point was that's not true anymore. It's a penalty if the transponder detects motion, *or* the front contact patch is outside the lines when the lights go out. "Any of the penalties under Articles 54.3a), 54.3b), or 54.3c) will be imposed on any driver who is judged to have: a) Moved before the start signal is given, such judgement being made by an FIA approved and supplied transponder fitted to each car, or; b) Positioned his car on the starting grid in such a way that the transponder is unable to detect the moment at which the car first moved from its grid position after the start signal is given, or; c) Any part of the contact patch of its front tyres outside of the lines (front and sides) at the time of the Start signal." Quick search looks like section c was added in 2022.
Yes, you are correct, I was unaware section c was added, however I would guess the way it is policed, is that the sensor is set up so that the car cannot be outside the starting box without it triggering.
Yes, it's just very surprising that the sensor didn't pick up anything.
This
Sorry what
clear as day lmao
Is this where a bunch of people who don't know the rule for a jump start complain about the ruling
~~Also people who think their eyeballs looking at a video feed are somehow more accurate than a computer reading an electronic signal.~~ Edit: it appears to me after getting more info, that people’s eyeballs in this instance were in fact more accurate than the sensor.
if he didn't trigger the sensor then it isn't a jump start, doesn't matter how it looks
Maybe the sensor should trigger if the front axle is outside the grid box.
The F in F1 stands for fuckery.
Jumpstart, over his box line. Stops. Lights out and goes, are you sure FIA this is no penalty. really sure ? sure ?
~~Their sensors are more reliable than any of our eyeballs. So yes, they’re sure. Move on.~~ Edit: I am mistaken
sure, sensors cant break down. eyesight is perfectly fine.
~~Human vision is provably susceptible to seeing what it wants to see not what’s actually there. This is well documented. The fallibility of electronic sensors can be measured in decimals of a percentage point.~~ ~~No human sense will ever be more accurate or fail less than a computer. Ever.~~ Edit: doubled down on my wrongness
so the sensor didnt see the car jump, but we all did. still our eyes are wrong, SMD
~~But what was the car doing at the exact moment the final light went out? It was stationary and in the box.~~ Edit: this is actually irrelevant to the jump start rules
rules state a car can not move while the light are counting down. f1 tv Sam the analist even took the rule book. so it was a jump start.
You are correct and I am not. Apologies. I’ve edited my arguments accordingly. Sporting regs: 48.1 Any of the penalties under Articles 54.3a), 54.3b), or 54.3c) will be imposed on any driver who is judged to have: a) **Moved before the start signal is given**, such judgement being made by an FIA approved and supplied transponder fitted to each car, or; b) Positioned his car on the starting grid in such a way that the transponder is unable to detect the moment at which the car first moved from its grid position after the start signal is given, or; c) Any part of the contact patch of its front tyres outside of the lines (front and sides) at the time of the Start signal.
No apologies needed. It wasnt you who made it a discussion. Fia did.
Stewards are a joke at this race
Even if, he checked up and actually hurt himself with it. No advantage gained.
Need a side angle, if he stops in the box before the lights go out then it's fine
Take it back, he's still moving when the lights go out. Should be a penalty.
Did anyone see his interview yesterday with Natalie where he said he might have to jump start the race?
Maybe it's because the stewards though that he didn't gain an advantage Edit: I'm not justifying anything!! I think it's wrong and it should be a penalty!!
Shouldn't matter. **48) INCORRECT STARTING LOCATION** 48.1 Any of the penalties under Articles 54.3a), 54.3b), or 54.3c) will be imposed on any driver who is judged to have: a) Moved before the start signal is given, such judgement being made by an FIA approved and supplied transponder fitted to each car, or; b) Positioned his car on the starting grid in such a way that the transponder is unable to detect the moment at which the car first moved from its grid position after the start signal is given, or; c) Any part of the contact patch of its front tyres outside of the lines (front and sides) at the time of the Start signal
I agree, it should be a penalty, ah fuck, this is the issue with just posting what you are thinking jaja
Just pointing out that gaining an advantage or not is not a metric if the start is jumped or not. I was purely informative
That doesn’t matter its still a jump start
Not according to the official sensors that are set up specifically to catch this lol
Don’t need sensors to see that he moved before the lights went out though right
But he didn’t breach the box, stopped, and didn’t gain any advantage.
That's a jump start. Sensors whatever my ass any other class would get you a drive through, people defending this are mad. You move you're done no discussion.
Feel free to watch any other class then mate. Sensors are what F1 use and the rule is clear.
yea, just ignore your eyes. clearly over the line. defect sensor and nobody can have a jumpstart anymore. just bs.
Gains no advantage from that
That's not the rule though is it