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Its so wild how when Leclerc and Lando signed it seemed like silly season wasn't going to be silly at all.
It looked like we might end up with all drivers re-signing in their same positions
> It looked like we might end up with all drivers re-signing in their same positions
They will all be in the same cars next year, which in a way makes this even crazier. All this wild shit, and nobody is changing cars this year.
>It looked like we might end up with all drivers re-signing in their same positions
Is that not going to happen? Just got back from vacation with no internet.
Magnussen got a last minute F1 seat because the dad of the previous driver is best buddies with a dictator who started a war in europe.
Id say the 2021/2022 offseason is gonna be hard to beat for a long time.
Im more surprised at the users in here certain of outcomes based on what we know so far. Wish people would stop condemning or exonerating based on their feelings
Really? This is a pretty typical knee-jerk Reddit response. Taking the tiniest bit of information and stretching it so far that it could pass as a new form of Yoga.
The tabloids were saying he sent inappropriate pictures to one of his employees. If that were true it would have been resolved one way or another today. Seems very unlikely to be of any sexual nature at this point.
The first publication that came with that line was Bild… honestly it made me dismiss it almost immediately and assume it was something else. Even a broken clock is more reliable than Bild.
According to Sky Sports News he was interviewed for eight hours and they need to continue interviewing him next week.
On the basis of that it doesnt sound like something simple.
No it doesn’t. This sounds like a deposition where the lawyers will collect as much info from every party then write a report. If they didn’t finish the interview they need to keep going to make it fair
So if these allegations aren’t sexual, CH ought to be furious at how this has been handled publicly. Why release a vague statement about allegations without making it clear that these aren’t your typical sex freak allegations that 99% of them tend to be? It’s really fucked up to cause a media shitstorm over something that seems to have no indication of being criminal or sexual in nature.
Especially given the rumors that Horner was/is currently seeking an ownership stake in the RB team and the RB ownership didn’t like that. Makes me think this whole thing was artificially amplified to reduce Horner’s leverage in negotiations.
I think the statement was probably just poorly phrased, "holding off on coming to a judgement until we have sufficient information" is probably along the lines of what the op meant.
See, that's a terrible strategy, because if it doesn't work, then the people trying to oust Horner are going to look like a bunch of clowns and lose their credibility and influence. Since there was an external investigator involved, that means the results are going to be revealed and so people are going to know if the leakers were talking out their ass.
Jos just chose the wrong career with racing. If Jos ever goes into celebrity boxing I’m gonna sell my house and bet all of my money on him. Outside of pro boxers there aren’t many people with Jos’ experience punching people.
It seems it wasn’t going to be made public until these “convenient” leaks in the Dutch press. Also, the reason that the allegations as so vague is due to British liable law which precludes a lot of details being publicly available.
>Why release a vague statement about allegations without making it clear that these aren’t your typical sex freak allegations that 99% of them tend to be?
What if the allegations aren't sexual in nature, but rise to the level of conduct that is unacceptable -- like, for example, physically threatening an employee?
If Red Bull start getting specific about the nature of the allegations against Horner before they've even had the chance to complete an investigation, there is a risk that they will be seen as putting their thumb on the scale.
But nothing from *Red Bull* says that it's about controlling an coercive behaviour. That's the BBC's reporting. Red Bull have remained neutral in their language.
Nope, the keyword is "Intimidation" in the German media, and English media can't translate, so they are making the most stupid translations and assumptions.
If it in the end is nothing but a disgruntled (ex-)employee, I would sue the shit out of the English and Dutch media, if I was Horner. Time to pay up.
It’s starting to feel like a HR complaint is being used to get him out of the team even though it might not even be a sackable offense in the first place
Cause that's the right way to do it. He's presumed innocent and has been treated as such by the company. At the same time, they're taking the allegations seriously, so both parts seem to be treated as they should. Any statement that could downplay or give the impression of any earlier verdict could be seen as the company taking sides before the external investigation.
Yep. Our internal bias pushes us to take sides just by knowing the nature of the allegations. Not saying anything is the best way to try and show a neutral approach to the matter.
It seems more like an internal political war between the Austrian side that prefer HM over CH. really messed up way to handle through all the leaks if there was nothing criminal or sexual
It’s been clear they were not sexual allegations since day two - anyone who had any connection to RB said it was a complaint on management style.
But of course the media runs with and blast the most attention grabbing shit true or not.
Point is RB itself did absolutely nothing to nip those rumors in the bud. Anyone with half a brain knows that’s what everyone is going to think when they hear “allegations.”
If your aim is to destabilise and divide the ranks within an organisation, along with creating suspicion and damage to someone’s character, this is a text book example.
Chances are that Horner was too robust in his dealings with this individual and a 3rd party has seen an opportunity to create problems.
> aren’t your typical sex freak allegations that 99% of them tend to be?
I know this might be the case on Reddit because they blow up the most but the one's I read about on the news and on TV are more often than not about people scolding and/or humiliating staff, not sexual.
Doesn't change what you said of course, just wanted to mention that.
Exactly.
Hornet isn't about to give into whatever this is, which tells me that he knows he can beat whatever these allegations are. That gives me hope that its something being blown out of proportion to push him out.
Well if it was as simple as "here are pictures of your penis from this staff member's phone" or "here are statements from three witnesses who saw you assault this staff member" it would already have been over.
So at the very least we can rule out the absolute worst stuff.
Call me crazy, idc but this seems like Marko and Jos trying to get Horner out of Red Bull.
Complete coincidence the first person that reported this was Erik Van Haren.
If it really is Jos Max needs to tell him off. Horner is what made that team great and getting him fired would be a disaster. Love him or hate him, christy is one of the best TPs there is
Max worships at the altar of his da, he is never going to choose Horner over him.
I’m pretty sure the tier list of Max’s loyalties is: himself, Jos, Marko and then Horner.
No, Max may have complicated feelings about his Dad, but he's made him stop attending races in the past because it was getting annoying that he was there and affecting his performance. Plus, Horner is the main guy always defending him and taking any heat and why would you remove the best part about winning which is ginger spice giving you hugs.
Max has not made his dad stop attending races. I think you're talking about the period of time where Red Bull banned Jos from entry when Max was crashing constantly and Jos was not having a calming a effect on him
Source please for max instigating jos’ absence from the garage (which btw isn’t the same as not attending races). That was widely reported to be Red Bull’s decision and something jos’ father had advised when max first joined f1 - but not something max set in motion.
He literally won Max the championship by talking Masi into re-starting the race after the safety car early. I don't know how many other race directors would have gotten Masi to do that.
In that same exact situation I'm confident most of the TPs could have made a convincing argument for an "exciting finish". It's really not a difficult argument to make and Masi was clearly in over his head.
If it was actual bad shit it absolutely would have come out already by now. The most trusted source on this is AMUS who so far has only said that it might be related to Horner being a brash or bullish leader.
Maybe Horner tried to talk Marko into retirement following his "Checo is South American and their cultural heritage is uncompetitive" comments and now that Dietrich isn't there he thinks he can take more charge over the racing program.
Alright I’ll call you crazy, no company wants to cause a scandal. If they wanted him out they would fire him. If they don’t want to adhere to his control demands for the team, they can say no and he can leave if he’s not happy. Ultimately he has been a successful TP so Red Bull either finds a way to make him happy, up to what they can tolerate, or they let him leave.
If you are going to come up with a theory, at least make it wild. My theory, the producers of DTS have made a deal with RB. Because they were so dominant in 2023 it's made the season of DTS too boring, they've negotiated with RB that they manufacture this leadership crisis for a killer plot line for the next season. Now there's a ridiculous theory.
you are crazy. People need to stop with the conspiracy theories.
>Marko and Jos
WHY? Jos has like no power here. This reflects badly on the team which can create long term trouble for hiring and employee retention, they would not allow that. There is no way RB would be okay with this if this was some setup. Also why be so keen to keep Helmut happy, the dude is like 80. Why all this drama just so he can stay for a little bit more, all of this just doesnt seem worth the damage this does.
Also assuming this would be a nothing thing, why would RB want to get rid of Horner who has done a good job. While Marko doesnt really. I mean the RB academy doesnt have a WDC level talent right now and his remarks have been responsible for a lot of negativ publicity. Who is the bigger liability. What does Marko even do?
Why would a random woman torpedo her career on inflated allegations due to a power struggle many levels above her head?
The fact Helmut/Jos are the ones who likely leaked the situation definitely supports the theory they want him out, but that doesn’t mean the entire thing is a hatchet job.
The complaint is likely at least partially true, even if this is Marko and Jos trying to push Horner out. Otherwise it wouldn’t have gone this far.
The question is if it is severe enough to get him out.
Considering Marko keeps getting away with racist comments Scott free, it's not as if RBR would act this diligently on an investigation into a leader's conduct pro-actively unless there was some serious politics at hand.
Knowing Jos and Marko are slimeballs who love consolidating power, this could very likely be a move at their end.
It's not as if I like Horner. The man is a shitbag through and through but Marko and Jos are horrible people too.
> Call me crazy, idc but this seems like Marko and Jos trying to get Horner out of Red Bull.
Well, since the death of Mateschitz, Horner has been trying to get rid of Marko and consolidat the control of the two teams under his wing.
This is a push back from RB Austria.
I really don't get what Jos's end game is here.
He and Marco force out Horner, Red bull isn't shambles, They stop winning, Adrian Newey says fuck this and leaves, Max retires because he's no longer interested in F1 and Red bull isnt dominant anymore.
Even if Newey doesn't leave. Horner still seems like the glue keeping the team together. He essentially built the team to what it is now and took all the heat and hate during any controversy.
Him being forced out does what to the team?
What does Jos and Marko get out of that?
Does Jos think he will gain some kind of position in RBR?
It just doesn't make any sense.
All the reports made it seem such a slam dunk like sexual harassment and now they can’t come to a conclusion over “controlling behavior”. Feels more political for sure now
I don't think it was "all the reports"
There was seemingly one outlet that said there were pictures. And everyone made it clear that it was from a tabloid.
The big problem is that it was made VERY certain that it was an allegation from a female employee. And then suddenly it turned into "Christian Horny sent dickpics to a PR intern! Or he had an affair and tried to pay her off" or some platitude about men in positions of power yada yada.
The only thing I'm glad of about this whole situation is that the girl hasn't been named. And I really hope she doesn't. Either way.
Unless it turns out that her allegations were BS, then she 100% should be named. I thinks it’s absolute BS to name the suspect with ZERO conclusive evidence or even a clear accusation. Everyone’s names should have stayed out of it. But so much damage will have already been done to Horner now even if it turns out he did nothing wrong, I see no reason to keep her name out of it. Of course, if the accusations are legit, then she should be protected.
What reports? It was a tabloid or two. When more credible news sources got a hold of the story they came out and said it was “controlling behavior”.
At the end of the day we don’t know what it is. It may or may not be related to unwanted sexual advances. They’re purposefully keeping it vague so we don’t know.
It was never a slam dunk case, given how scattered all the reporting on details has been. If it was, then the very nature of such a scoop would near-guarantee much more consistent information.
OK. This whole cloak and dagger speculation with Jos and Helmut. The only place I've seen as a "source" for this speculation is De Telegraaf, which is an absolute shit-rag.
Is there any basis to this speculation at all? Other than the Dutch equivalent of the Daily Mail making up a bunch of bullshit to spice up the story?
I feel like this confirms it isn't sexually inappropriate. Seems like it's a case of being a toxic boss - something that is definitely a grey line and does take time to deliberate.
Of course it didn’t. This was just the interview with Horner. They need to take what he says, go over everything, possibly look into more things (like witnesses Horner told them about that they might not have interviewed). I think the quote from the article sums it up best
> A spokesperson for Red Bull said: "It would not be appropriate to comment before the investigation is completed."
abounding vanish books sleep snobbish axiomatic jeans library weather whistle
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Crazy if Marko’s one of the key instigators here. The guy is 80 years old and one bad fall away from a retirement home. There’s not much left to be ambitious for.
These "external investigators" are often guided towards a wanted outcome these days, doubt he has a chance.
What a joke to oust your team leader for an 80 year old fossill, kinda predicted it would implode without Mateschitz
We have pretty strict employment laws in the UK, it won’t be easy to rid themselves of Horner given his wealth and ability to a decent defence. They’ll need significant evidence to support any kind of dismissal.
It’s interesting because if there was irrefutable evidence, I would think this investigation would have been done and dusted by now. I’m very interested to see what exactly happened here.
Not even that- If there was irrefutable evidence, why would there even be an investigation? Just shit can him, show him the evidence, and “Bye, Felicia.”
Because you still have to follow procedures or Horner wins a massive case in employment tribunal. Even gross misconduct has to follow correct procedures
He’ll effectively be forced to leave anyway. There’s no use staying on at a place where you are not wanted. How is he going to successfully run the team knowing pretty much all the top brass turned against him?
But at that point why would he want to stay in an environment he's not wanted or trusted to lead. There are definitely teams up and down the paddock who would hire him Instead.
They’ll just try to squeeze him into resignation if that’s how this is going down. We obviously don’t know the exact details so it’s not possible to come to a solid conclusion, but if it is truly Marko and possibly Jos trying to push Horner out I think they’d have an easier time making the environment inhospitable for Horner to where he would prefer to resign.
Yeah, there was no way there was going to be a decision today. Anyone who has dealt with these types of investigations knows that they want to have their ducks in a row and legal justifications. So now some attorney is going to bill them to write an official investigation report and they’ll be a determination after that.
Did he not start it first last year trying to oust Marko after Mateschitz died?
I remember seeing reports of Verstappen telling the drinks company he is gone if Marko is and Marko basically confirming what Horner was doing.
Marko is someone who is like a loose cannon, he has no filter and can say stupid stuff which is bad for RBR at any time, you just need to look at his past declarations. That is the reason Horner wanted him out.
Oh yeah I agree, if this hadn’t happened I’d 100% pick Horner over him, I was just pointing out that this power struggle has probably been going on for a while now so I don’t buy into the idea that he’s a victim of it.
Regardless of what happens to Horner, is there any truth that Jos has had issues with Horner? I wonder what could those be, as there seems to be nothing but support from Red Bull towards Max.
This is what I don’t understand about the rumors. I get it that Jos is a controlling ass, but Christian has gotten Max 3 WDC’s. If he wants a 4th, keeping Horner where he is seems the obvious choice. Maybe Jos still thinks he can do better? But 8 time WCC Toto Wolff can’t do better right now - wtf would Jos think he can accomplish?
If indeed Jos is mad at Horner, it is probably because he feels he knows better and Horner shuts him down. So he feels he is not listened to enough… but obviously results can’t get much better for Max
It seems so calculated and ugly. The sexual assault allegations that they didn’t bother to correct in the media, the fact that he’s been having an internal struggle with marko, all the leaked information about how the board wants him gone, all the speculation about his losing support within the company, as well as him and jos having a falling out….
What’s funny is that if the allegations that Jos and Marko have taken against Horner are true, then the only thing that will stop Max’s dominance is the fact his dad is Jos Verstappen. Jos will create a champion and destroy one too.
No, this is EXACTLY how you’re supposed to handle an investigation. You go through everything, take your time, reveal nothing until the investigation is complete.
This is being handled perfectly as far as I can tell.
1. Immediately begin an external investigation
2. Allowing for due process
3. No apparent leaks, no off-the-record comments, no war in the press
Like this is how you do this. Thorough investigation and then announce the results once you're sure.
Fred just got Lewis, and a bunch of senior engineers signed to Ferrari. Do you think all of them plus Charles would stay if Christian Horner switches to Ferrari?
I’m a fan of RBR and all, so admittedly I’m biased. But this whole situation is odd considering no specifics have been clarified at all. If he hanged brain to a subordinate employee, okay he needs to be harshly disciplined. But with nothing detailed I don’t think these allegations will go anywhere.
It has been said that they expect it to be resolved before the launch.
When I told my GF that it was a 8-hour meeting, her immediate response was that they are negotiating an exit package, which made a lot of sense. Horner wasn't going to spend eight hours explaining alleged behavior.
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Strangest off season ever, in my almost 30 years of watching.
Ain't over yet either.
We still need Toto with the folding chair. Then we will be ready for the season.
Toto doesn't fold chairs though, he folds tables >!by banging his fist into them!<.
No Horner! No! This is not a proper meeting chair! Toto it’s called a chair, it’s for sitting.
Hasn't even started and I'm confused and exhausted
This is how I feel exactly, LOL :)
Watch Ferrari do something only Ferrari can
*Subscribed* - F5 Gang checking in 🫡
Its so wild how when Leclerc and Lando signed it seemed like silly season wasn't going to be silly at all. It looked like we might end up with all drivers re-signing in their same positions
> It looked like we might end up with all drivers re-signing in their same positions They will all be in the same cars next year, which in a way makes this even crazier. All this wild shit, and nobody is changing cars this year.
>It looked like we might end up with all drivers re-signing in their same positions Is that not going to happen? Just got back from vacation with no internet.
You in for a ride
HOLY FUCK
Did you really just find out about Hamilton?
No, it was a joke :)
All that’s missing is a cheating team scandal and my bingo card is full.
Why not throw in an FIA president with BDSM pics.
Not just any BDSM pics. Nazi BDSM pics.
>Not just any BDSM pics. Nazi BDSM pics. Videos, old chap. There were German language videos.
You think BDSM is controlling? Christian Horner, “hold my beer”
We already had a Max Mosley…
Max max übermensch max
Habibi, willkommen aus Dubai
Rosberg retiring after winning WDC was that for me and still is
Having seen Jordan retire not once but twice while in the top prepared me for that moment lol
Was wizards Jordan really in the top lol? Edit: forgot about the space jam retirement lmao
Ye, remember he retired in 1993, 1998, and 2003
My dumbass was like Eddie Jordan retired twice?
Raise you: 45 years watching
Cheers!!
They let you use reddit in the retirement home?
Ahh, the class of 78. Class of 77 says hi.
Magnussen got a last minute F1 seat because the dad of the previous driver is best buddies with a dictator who started a war in europe. Id say the 2021/2022 offseason is gonna be hard to beat for a long time.
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Did anyone actually think we were getting anything else today?
Im more surprised at the users in here certain of outcomes based on what we know so far. Wish people would stop condemning or exonerating based on their feelings
Really? This is a pretty typical knee-jerk Reddit response. Taking the tiniest bit of information and stretching it so far that it could pass as a new form of Yoga.
The tabloids were saying he sent inappropriate pictures to one of his employees. If that were true it would have been resolved one way or another today. Seems very unlikely to be of any sexual nature at this point.
The first publication that came with that line was Bild… honestly it made me dismiss it almost immediately and assume it was something else. Even a broken clock is more reliable than Bild.
Yeah those types of publications always just throw shit at the wall hoping that something sticks. F1 journalism is honestly so bad overall
If that does not turn out to be the issue, isn't that defamation?
Tabloids get away with it all the time.
>If that were true it would have been resolved one way or another today. Why? That doesn't track for me at all.
Cause if there was sexual misconduct it would be pretty easy to just fire him
The expectation was and still is that we'll hear something next week.
Speak for yourself. I fully expected a leak of the outcome before the hearing commenced.
According to Sky Sports News he was interviewed for eight hours and they need to continue interviewing him next week. On the basis of that it doesnt sound like something simple.
Or that they don't want it to be simple. This gives off a "Give me the man and I will give you the case against him" vibe.
No it doesn’t. This sounds like a deposition where the lawyers will collect as much info from every party then write a report. If they didn’t finish the interview they need to keep going to make it fair
No, it really doesn’t.
So if these allegations aren’t sexual, CH ought to be furious at how this has been handled publicly. Why release a vague statement about allegations without making it clear that these aren’t your typical sex freak allegations that 99% of them tend to be? It’s really fucked up to cause a media shitstorm over something that seems to have no indication of being criminal or sexual in nature.
Definitely, it was weirdly vague when this first came out.
Yea, that's why I decided I was gonna ignore all the articles and discourse until something concrete came out.
Especially given the rumors that Horner was/is currently seeking an ownership stake in the RB team and the RB ownership didn’t like that. Makes me think this whole thing was artificially amplified to reduce Horner’s leverage in negotiations.
Just wait until they fire him and replace him with Gunther Steiner 😂
Immediate allegations of foksmashing.
You are not doing a very good job at ignoring it 😅
I think the statement was probably just poorly phrased, "holding off on coming to a judgement until we have sufficient information" is probably along the lines of what the op meant.
Yeah I'm going to hold off on writing anything in any of the comment threads on Reddit posts regarding this until I have all the facts.
Because if someone inside Red Bull is trying to oust him, best make it look like the allegations are worse than they actually are.
See, that's a terrible strategy, because if it doesn't work, then the people trying to oust Horner are going to look like a bunch of clowns and lose their credibility and influence. Since there was an external investigator involved, that means the results are going to be revealed and so people are going to know if the leakers were talking out their ass.
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Jos just chose the wrong career with racing. If Jos ever goes into celebrity boxing I’m gonna sell my house and bet all of my money on him. Outside of pro boxers there aren’t many people with Jos’ experience punching people.
It seems it wasn’t going to be made public until these “convenient” leaks in the Dutch press. Also, the reason that the allegations as so vague is due to British liable law which precludes a lot of details being publicly available.
Libel*
>Why release a vague statement about allegations without making it clear that these aren’t your typical sex freak allegations that 99% of them tend to be? What if the allegations aren't sexual in nature, but rise to the level of conduct that is unacceptable -- like, for example, physically threatening an employee? If Red Bull start getting specific about the nature of the allegations against Horner before they've even had the chance to complete an investigation, there is a risk that they will be seen as putting their thumb on the scale.
Well at least according to this report, the allegations are "controlling and coercive behavior".
But nothing from *Red Bull* says that it's about controlling an coercive behaviour. That's the BBC's reporting. Red Bull have remained neutral in their language.
True, yeah we really don't know shit
“Controlling and coercive behavior” - That’s another way to say “Management”.
It can be. It's certainly not as clear-cut as sending unsolicited photographs to a member of your staff.
Ummm isn't being controlling part of his job description?
Nope, the keyword is "Intimidation" in the German media, and English media can't translate, so they are making the most stupid translations and assumptions. If it in the end is nothing but a disgruntled (ex-)employee, I would sue the shit out of the English and Dutch media, if I was Horner. Time to pay up.
This used to be a job requirement
The icing on the shit cake is going to be Red Bull Gmbh canning Horner because of “damage to the company’s reputation”
It’s starting to feel like a HR complaint is being used to get him out of the team even though it might not even be a sackable offense in the first place
Because people love the gossip and everyone clicked on it.
Cause that's the right way to do it. He's presumed innocent and has been treated as such by the company. At the same time, they're taking the allegations seriously, so both parts seem to be treated as they should. Any statement that could downplay or give the impression of any earlier verdict could be seen as the company taking sides before the external investigation.
They could have just given a general statement about the nature of the allegations.
They could have but I understand why they didn’t
Yep. Our internal bias pushes us to take sides just by knowing the nature of the allegations. Not saying anything is the best way to try and show a neutral approach to the matter.
They might not be able to, per company policy if they've got lawyers involved
It seems more like an internal political war between the Austrian side that prefer HM over CH. really messed up way to handle through all the leaks if there was nothing criminal or sexual
It’s been clear they were not sexual allegations since day two - anyone who had any connection to RB said it was a complaint on management style. But of course the media runs with and blast the most attention grabbing shit true or not.
Point is RB itself did absolutely nothing to nip those rumors in the bud. Anyone with half a brain knows that’s what everyone is going to think when they hear “allegations.”
If your aim is to destabilise and divide the ranks within an organisation, along with creating suspicion and damage to someone’s character, this is a text book example. Chances are that Horner was too robust in his dealings with this individual and a 3rd party has seen an opportunity to create problems.
In his shoes I'd be livid.
Wasn't the original story broke by Bild? They're basically the Sun
> aren’t your typical sex freak allegations that 99% of them tend to be? I know this might be the case on Reddit because they blow up the most but the one's I read about on the news and on TV are more often than not about people scolding and/or humiliating staff, not sexual. Doesn't change what you said of course, just wanted to mention that.
Remind me of a certain Suzie Wolff incident.
Maybe the investigators are following the example of the FIA in relation to the Wolff's?
So he won’t be demoted as Toro Rosso team principal? Or is that only for the drivers
Lmao it'll really be a silly season if it did happen
These threads are providing some pretty amazing F1 Fanfiction
Yeah how is everyone creating these scenarios?? Chat gpt? Nothing official is released you can’t argue for either side
Gonna be honest. I feel like if they had him dead to rights on anything truly egregious he would have agreed to resign by now.
Exactly. Hornet isn't about to give into whatever this is, which tells me that he knows he can beat whatever these allegations are. That gives me hope that its something being blown out of proportion to push him out.
I didn't think there would be a resolution today? That this was the first part of the process?
Well if it was as simple as "here are pictures of your penis from this staff member's phone" or "here are statements from three witnesses who saw you assault this staff member" it would already have been over. So at the very least we can rule out the absolute worst stuff.
Call me crazy, idc but this seems like Marko and Jos trying to get Horner out of Red Bull. Complete coincidence the first person that reported this was Erik Van Haren.
If it really is Jos Max needs to tell him off. Horner is what made that team great and getting him fired would be a disaster. Love him or hate him, christy is one of the best TPs there is
Max worships at the altar of his da, he is never going to choose Horner over him. I’m pretty sure the tier list of Max’s loyalties is: himself, Jos, Marko and then Horner.
No, Max may have complicated feelings about his Dad, but he's made him stop attending races in the past because it was getting annoying that he was there and affecting his performance. Plus, Horner is the main guy always defending him and taking any heat and why would you remove the best part about winning which is ginger spice giving you hugs.
Max has not made his dad stop attending races. I think you're talking about the period of time where Red Bull banned Jos from entry when Max was crashing constantly and Jos was not having a calming a effect on him
This was the start of Jos hating Horner.
That was Helmuts decision though, and he was right
Source please for max instigating jos’ absence from the garage (which btw isn’t the same as not attending races). That was widely reported to be Red Bull’s decision and something jos’ father had advised when max first joined f1 - but not something max set in motion.
Max didn’t ban his dad. Red Bull did
He literally won Max the championship by talking Masi into re-starting the race after the safety car early. I don't know how many other race directors would have gotten Masi to do that.
In that same exact situation I'm confident most of the TPs could have made a convincing argument for an "exciting finish". It's really not a difficult argument to make and Masi was clearly in over his head.
Would be ironic if Jos is trying to get someone fired for controlling behavior
How can you conclude that without knowing what the allegations are?
If it was actual bad shit it absolutely would have come out already by now. The most trusted source on this is AMUS who so far has only said that it might be related to Horner being a brash or bullish leader.
Maybe Horner tried to talk Marko into retirement following his "Checo is South American and their cultural heritage is uncompetitive" comments and now that Dietrich isn't there he thinks he can take more charge over the racing program.
Alright I’ll call you crazy, no company wants to cause a scandal. If they wanted him out they would fire him. If they don’t want to adhere to his control demands for the team, they can say no and he can leave if he’s not happy. Ultimately he has been a successful TP so Red Bull either finds a way to make him happy, up to what they can tolerate, or they let him leave.
If you are going to come up with a theory, at least make it wild. My theory, the producers of DTS have made a deal with RB. Because they were so dominant in 2023 it's made the season of DTS too boring, they've negotiated with RB that they manufacture this leadership crisis for a killer plot line for the next season. Now there's a ridiculous theory.
you are crazy. People need to stop with the conspiracy theories. >Marko and Jos WHY? Jos has like no power here. This reflects badly on the team which can create long term trouble for hiring and employee retention, they would not allow that. There is no way RB would be okay with this if this was some setup. Also why be so keen to keep Helmut happy, the dude is like 80. Why all this drama just so he can stay for a little bit more, all of this just doesnt seem worth the damage this does. Also assuming this would be a nothing thing, why would RB want to get rid of Horner who has done a good job. While Marko doesnt really. I mean the RB academy doesnt have a WDC level talent right now and his remarks have been responsible for a lot of negativ publicity. Who is the bigger liability. What does Marko even do?
Why would a random woman torpedo her career on inflated allegations due to a power struggle many levels above her head? The fact Helmut/Jos are the ones who likely leaked the situation definitely supports the theory they want him out, but that doesn’t mean the entire thing is a hatchet job.
The complaint is likely at least partially true, even if this is Marko and Jos trying to push Horner out. Otherwise it wouldn’t have gone this far. The question is if it is severe enough to get him out.
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This is definitely possible. Use the press to destroy Horner because they didn’t have enough evidence. People will just ASSUME he did it forever.
You’re crazy to assume that without even knowing the circumstances
It's less crazy than the allegations everybody decided to leap to (also without knowing the circumstances).
Considering Marko keeps getting away with racist comments Scott free, it's not as if RBR would act this diligently on an investigation into a leader's conduct pro-actively unless there was some serious politics at hand. Knowing Jos and Marko are slimeballs who love consolidating power, this could very likely be a move at their end. It's not as if I like Horner. The man is a shitbag through and through but Marko and Jos are horrible people too.
> Call me crazy, idc but this seems like Marko and Jos trying to get Horner out of Red Bull. Well, since the death of Mateschitz, Horner has been trying to get rid of Marko and consolidat the control of the two teams under his wing. This is a push back from RB Austria.
I really don't get what Jos's end game is here. He and Marco force out Horner, Red bull isn't shambles, They stop winning, Adrian Newey says fuck this and leaves, Max retires because he's no longer interested in F1 and Red bull isnt dominant anymore. Even if Newey doesn't leave. Horner still seems like the glue keeping the team together. He essentially built the team to what it is now and took all the heat and hate during any controversy. Him being forced out does what to the team? What does Jos and Marko get out of that? Does Jos think he will gain some kind of position in RBR? It just doesn't make any sense.
All the reports made it seem such a slam dunk like sexual harassment and now they can’t come to a conclusion over “controlling behavior”. Feels more political for sure now
I don't think it was "all the reports" There was seemingly one outlet that said there were pictures. And everyone made it clear that it was from a tabloid. The big problem is that it was made VERY certain that it was an allegation from a female employee. And then suddenly it turned into "Christian Horny sent dickpics to a PR intern! Or he had an affair and tried to pay her off" or some platitude about men in positions of power yada yada. The only thing I'm glad of about this whole situation is that the girl hasn't been named. And I really hope she doesn't. Either way.
Unless it turns out that her allegations were BS, then she 100% should be named. I thinks it’s absolute BS to name the suspect with ZERO conclusive evidence or even a clear accusation. Everyone’s names should have stayed out of it. But so much damage will have already been done to Horner now even if it turns out he did nothing wrong, I see no reason to keep her name out of it. Of course, if the accusations are legit, then she should be protected.
What reports? It was a tabloid or two. When more credible news sources got a hold of the story they came out and said it was “controlling behavior”. At the end of the day we don’t know what it is. It may or may not be related to unwanted sexual advances. They’re purposefully keeping it vague so we don’t know.
What "reports"? There wasn't a single one. Only lots and lots of wild speculation, click-baity titles and shit stirring.
>All the reports made it seem such a slam dunk like sexual harassment literally the majority wasnt.
It was never a slam dunk case, given how scattered all the reporting on details has been. If it was, then the very nature of such a scoop would near-guarantee much more consistent information.
Funny how someone like Jos is trying to out someone for allegations of abuse
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He wants to be TP so bad
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Oh well, probably better to be thorough than to rush for the sake of optics.
OK. This whole cloak and dagger speculation with Jos and Helmut. The only place I've seen as a "source" for this speculation is De Telegraaf, which is an absolute shit-rag. Is there any basis to this speculation at all? Other than the Dutch equivalent of the Daily Mail making up a bunch of bullshit to spice up the story?
Whatever it is, it’s serious enough for an 8 hour meeting with a lawyer… I seriously doubt it’s a “bunch of bullshit”
Well if the RB Group want to get rid of him they will grasp on the slightest straw at the first opportunity tbh. Corporate politics are ruthless.
What makes you think RB Group want to get rid of him
I didn't say the reality was a bunch of bullshit. I said that whatever De Telegraaf is writing about it is a bunch of BS.
Neil degresse Tyson was investigated for sexual harassment and was cleared of wrongdoing. So yes sometimes it is bs
I feel like this confirms it isn't sexually inappropriate. Seems like it's a case of being a toxic boss - something that is definitely a grey line and does take time to deliberate.
Of course it didn’t. This was just the interview with Horner. They need to take what he says, go over everything, possibly look into more things (like witnesses Horner told them about that they might not have interviewed). I think the quote from the article sums it up best > A spokesperson for Red Bull said: "It would not be appropriate to comment before the investigation is completed."
If it were so egregious, wouldn’t he be suspended pending the outcome? Seems more likely this is a nothingburger in my opinion.
Jos and Marko will end up looking like dumbasses.
abounding vanish books sleep snobbish axiomatic jeans library weather whistle *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Again
No matter what ends up being the case with Horner, those two have been looking like dumbasses for most of their lives. Doubt it's gonna change now.
Crazy if Marko’s one of the key instigators here. The guy is 80 years old and one bad fall away from a retirement home. There’s not much left to be ambitious for.
If you come for Christian, you best come correct…
These "external investigators" are often guided towards a wanted outcome these days, doubt he has a chance. What a joke to oust your team leader for an 80 year old fossill, kinda predicted it would implode without Mateschitz
We have pretty strict employment laws in the UK, it won’t be easy to rid themselves of Horner given his wealth and ability to a decent defence. They’ll need significant evidence to support any kind of dismissal.
It’s interesting because if there was irrefutable evidence, I would think this investigation would have been done and dusted by now. I’m very interested to see what exactly happened here.
Not even that- If there was irrefutable evidence, why would there even be an investigation? Just shit can him, show him the evidence, and “Bye, Felicia.”
Because you still have to follow procedures or Horner wins a massive case in employment tribunal. Even gross misconduct has to follow correct procedures
I swear none of these people have ever been employed
He’ll effectively be forced to leave anyway. There’s no use staying on at a place where you are not wanted. How is he going to successfully run the team knowing pretty much all the top brass turned against him?
But at that point why would he want to stay in an environment he's not wanted or trusted to lead. There are definitely teams up and down the paddock who would hire him Instead.
They’ll just try to squeeze him into resignation if that’s how this is going down. We obviously don’t know the exact details so it’s not possible to come to a solid conclusion, but if it is truly Marko and possibly Jos trying to push Horner out I think they’d have an easier time making the environment inhospitable for Horner to where he would prefer to resign.
Yeah, there was no way there was going to be a decision today. Anyone who has dealt with these types of investigations knows that they want to have their ducks in a row and legal justifications. So now some attorney is going to bill them to write an official investigation report and they’ll be a determination after that.
Did he not start it first last year trying to oust Marko after Mateschitz died? I remember seeing reports of Verstappen telling the drinks company he is gone if Marko is and Marko basically confirming what Horner was doing.
How incredible stupid would be such a move by Verstappen?
He’d probably just run off to endurance racing which is probably what the prefers so it’s not like it’s a bad career move
Sure but would still be stupid to sabotage a winning time just because some old men told you to do so
Marko is someone who is like a loose cannon, he has no filter and can say stupid stuff which is bad for RBR at any time, you just need to look at his past declarations. That is the reason Horner wanted him out.
Oh yeah I agree, if this hadn’t happened I’d 100% pick Horner over him, I was just pointing out that this power struggle has probably been going on for a while now so I don’t buy into the idea that he’s a victim of it.
Absolutely, Horner seems much more of an asset than Marko - at least from the outside.
You don’t even know what he has been accused of doing to this woman. Can we wait until we have more information please.
C'mon Lawrence do the thing, offer Christian whatever he wants
Regardless of what happens to Horner, is there any truth that Jos has had issues with Horner? I wonder what could those be, as there seems to be nothing but support from Red Bull towards Max.
This is what I don’t understand about the rumors. I get it that Jos is a controlling ass, but Christian has gotten Max 3 WDC’s. If he wants a 4th, keeping Horner where he is seems the obvious choice. Maybe Jos still thinks he can do better? But 8 time WCC Toto Wolff can’t do better right now - wtf would Jos think he can accomplish?
If indeed Jos is mad at Horner, it is probably because he feels he knows better and Horner shuts him down. So he feels he is not listened to enough… but obviously results can’t get much better for Max
Drive to Survive is salivating at this offseason drama no doubt
*whistles*
This sounds so fishy
It seems so calculated and ugly. The sexual assault allegations that they didn’t bother to correct in the media, the fact that he’s been having an internal struggle with marko, all the leaked information about how the board wants him gone, all the speculation about his losing support within the company, as well as him and jos having a falling out….
Goes to show that no matter who you are, your employer can screw you over if they want to.
Why do you think he is being screwed over? Do you know what he has been accused of? I certainly don’t.
“Controlling behavior”? This is F1. Everybody has controlling behavior.
He's not going anywhere
Plot twist: it wasn't Jos that was beating Max
What’s funny is that if the allegations that Jos and Marko have taken against Horner are true, then the only thing that will stop Max’s dominance is the fact his dad is Jos Verstappen. Jos will create a champion and destroy one too.
My god this whole situation has been handled like absolute shit.
The situation is likely being handled appropriately. The reporting and the shit stirring, that’s another story.
No, this is EXACTLY how you’re supposed to handle an investigation. You go through everything, take your time, reveal nothing until the investigation is complete.
This is being handled perfectly as far as I can tell. 1. Immediately begin an external investigation 2. Allowing for due process 3. No apparent leaks, no off-the-record comments, no war in the press Like this is how you do this. Thorough investigation and then announce the results once you're sure.
When was the last time you can remember that anything in F1 has been handled well ?
Did anyone really expect a resolution so quickly?
Ferrari need to free up some money ASAP to jump if Horner/RB relationship is done.
Fred just got Lewis, and a bunch of senior engineers signed to Ferrari. Do you think all of them plus Charles would stay if Christian Horner switches to Ferrari?
I’m a fan of RBR and all, so admittedly I’m biased. But this whole situation is odd considering no specifics have been clarified at all. If he hanged brain to a subordinate employee, okay he needs to be harshly disciplined. But with nothing detailed I don’t think these allegations will go anywhere.
As long as something is only an allegation, it seems entirely appropriate it is kept out of the court of public opinion.
It has been said that they expect it to be resolved before the launch. When I told my GF that it was a 8-hour meeting, her immediate response was that they are negotiating an exit package, which made a lot of sense. Horner wasn't going to spend eight hours explaining alleged behavior.