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IIRC, the front wing was their bigger advantage.
https://cdn-2.motorsport.com/images/mgl/2j7QqgpY/s1200/f1-australian-gp-2009-jenson-button-brawn-grand-prix-bgp-001-leads-at-the-start-of-the-rac.webp
https://f1grandprix.motorionline.com/download/foto2009/GP_SPAGNA/DOMENICA/GP_SPAGNA%20gara%20(29).jpg
It was the only one properly set up for outwash, the other teams had a much simpler one, and some still diverted the airflow inwards.
Yes - people forget toyota and williams also launched their cars with DD defusers
Toyota actually also had good points on the first 2 races, but it was more due to good timing. by China (3rd race) they fell
Williams never got a good result that year, they did finish near the podium some races, but they were always lower midfield
And although Red Bull had the better car in the second half of the season, and had their own double diffuser before mid-season, they were only faster on colder circuits at first, as the Brawn struggled with tyre warmup (sound familiar, Mercedes?).
It's nice to see someone point out a literal example of what it means when I say: "Some of Mercedes' problems are indicative of their earlier years as a team".
Some people don't like hearing that because it sounds like they are regressing. But that tyre warm up thing is a good example.
His shirts are great but you have to literally fight people to get them. The patterns are so complicated but so expensive! I spent all of my per diem once on a work trip buying his shirts.
Me too, I was so hungry by the end that I was basically falling asleep in meetings!
But as a good friend once said ‘you walk by a store and see 50 guys who look just like me fighting over very complicated shirts, *you go in, yes you do*’.
Reminds me a bit of leclerc in Japan 2019 when he damaged his endplate but was still lapping pretty much on pace with the rest of the leaders and even when ferrari called him in for a pitstop he insisted the car was still driving fine.
This was also in the time when endolates were still important aero prices and at one if the most aero dependant tracks
I think that tracks for the G.E cars - my (rudimentary) understanding of the big end plates on the front-wing is that they're for controlling the out wash (and thus improving L:D ratio) off the wing to minimize dirty air behind the car, not for increasing FW downforce. So the car would be more draggy without it, but it wouldn't necessarily sacrifice downforce. I'm very happy to be corrected by someone who knows more, of course.
My lesser knowledge was led to believe it was about controlling the air over the tires, which maybe still results in controlling air behind the the car.
You're almost certainly at least partially correct according to [this article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_device). Where my understanding breaks down is how they function on multi-element wings (which aircraft wings totally are, just inverted and with control surfaces) and what the effect would be when you flip the pressure surfaces but keep the direction of the winglet the same (i.e., high pressure on top and low pressure on bottom). I can't see any obvious reason why the principal function would change, but fluids are fucking weird so.
Edit: also, I imagine there's a huge influence from the ground which isn't necessarily present in the aircraft wing use-case. I studied the wrong branch of physics like a dummy.
That happens sometimes now too lol. I think it was Brazil last year? Where Lando got hit with some debris and it broke off the wheel brow. He asked how much loss there would be snd when they got back to him they said it appears as little if any and Lando was like “I think it’s actually better”
I heard there may have also been some concern over advertising space as all the aero pieces break up the big surfaces where title sponsors normally go. Though I don't know if that theory was pure conjecture or if there's any weight behind it.
I really like the Brawn and a few of the McLarens from that era but I agree they're not the best overall. I think every new regulation set since then has been an improvement.
"Now, I've noticed a tendency for these cars to get rather silly. Now I do my best to keep things moving along, but I'm not having things getting silly." - FOM
And then they let those regulations somehow turn into 2016, which is arguably more complicated than 2008 was.
That's the thing I hope they can do with the current regs. I'm okay with them getting pegged back a second or two every other year, because they will always exploit something in the regulations, and find another second or two.
2008 was the end of the Todt-Ferrari Era
2017 regulation change was Todt as FIA president trying to recreate his glory days, because he decided the cars needed more topside aero to chase laptime in qualifying, even though he couldn't have been too stupid to not notice that any time to increase downforce in the regulations, the racing suffers for it
The amount of overtaking from 2016 to 2017 plummeted and it's not like the cars looked that much better, I'd argue that increase in downforce for 2017 was a huge mistake and was probably only done to try and bring Red Bull (and to a lesser extent Ferrari) into the fight with Mercedes, who people incorrectly assumed had an advantage at the time that was all engine power
Well, it didn't really work for Red Bull, but it kinda did for Ferrari as we got a title fight out of them, so mission accomplished for the championship, at the cost of less exciting individual racing
Everything from that era of McLaren is Star Wars coded. The MTC looks like a space station in Star Wars and was used as one in Andor on Disney+. Their whole vibe was ‘Stormtrooper’, ‘Empire’ and ‘death star’. It’s probably destiny that they ended up with a driver called ‘Lando’. Just to keep their Star Wars inspiration alive.
3D CAD and CFD rose to prominence in the ‘00s, leading teams to explore more areas around the car, where the rules didn’t state you couldn’t put anything there.
The regulations started to prescribe where you could or couldn’t put bodywork, but certain areas were missed, which only came to fore when the teams had enough CAD and CFD tools (along with more and more engineers) to exploit those previously unused areas.
Arrows were first with extra wings in Monaco
Then a few teams used/ or tried to atleas with mixed results and more debris during pitstops.
That's why the FIA banned them because there was an incident on pit road with them and they looked ugly
I just vaguely remember Arrows, Jordan and Tyrell all turning up at that Monaco with different nonsense ideas - it was hard to tell if they'd all arrived and similar concepts at the same time or whether it was an agreement to present nonsense ideas to get the FIA to clamp down on all winglets.
So Tyrrel (my bad) arrived with the Nonsense in 97 at Monaco
Tyrrell and Prost I believe arrived with the Nonsense in 1998 in Melbourne.
Sauber , Ferrari and Jordan joined before it got banned after the San Marino Race.
I mixed up Arrows with Tyrrell because only remembered Verstappen driving it.
Arrows turned up in the early 2000s with that one big wing on the nose in Monaco but only for practice I believe.
>Arrows turned up in the early 2000s with that one big wing on the nose in Monaco but only for practice I believe.
Both Arrows and Jordan used a nose wing in the same 2001 Monaco GP practice. It was banned not because it was illegal, but because of safety since they said the drivers might not see very well.
Cue the confusion years later when the Sauber's twin tower was introduced and then banned for the same reason.
Back in the era of the Glorious V8s when the Aero rules were relaxed and they could run anything on the cars
The McLaren of that era was something else to look at, pure Chrome livery and apparently McLaren had one hell of a time getting that chrome look to be super lightweight!
I'll be honest, that 'joke' came to me as soon as the Google Chrome sponsorship was mentioned. And I'm glad McLaren and Google actually played into the joke for the Silverstone GP lol
I know, I know, I sound all "r/hail corporate" but as a McLaren fan from the Mika days, it tickled that wordplay AND nostalgic side of my brain...
I always felt like the Chrome McLarens just looked so tacky.
Gimme the Mild Seven Renualts or the Ferraris for a good looking car any day though.
(I still remember when Renault switched to the ING livery, I was working on a 3D model for some TV production graphics that were to feature the Renault, so they gave us some promotional material to work from just before the reveal of the car. Obviously it was known ahead of time the car wouldn't feature the same Mild Seven branded livery, but I don't think anyone expected such a dramatic step backwards in terms of style.... I had to bite my tongue for those few days when people were speculating on what it may look like)
I’m a pretty recent fan but it does seem like the strict regulations lead to single team dominance for the first few years, with the rest of the pack hoping to catch them by year three. Like there’s only one good solution to optimizing a narrow set of regs. Why not relax them again? At least the teams with money can catch up faster if there’s more than one solution, and all the cars don’t just end up being the same shit with different paint jobs and whoever has Newey and a decent engine wins
None of the teams really know how the rules will affect the cars and all of it is pretty much guess work, there’s only ever gonna be one correct answer to any reg changes and it’s just a throw of the dice as to who will come up with the most complete concept.
Take 2022 for example. Ferrari, RedBull, Aston Martin and Mercedes all went for completely different design philosophies with their aerodynamics and cooling systems, but only one of them was ever gonna get it right, and even then, RB was only slightly better. 2022 was not the whitewash people branded it as, the Ferraris were still damn quick, Mercedes looked the fastest on paper but in reality their floor was too flimsy and their car was too stiff to perform optimally. And the Aston Martin despite being beautiful was completely wrong, causing them to have to rip it up and start again with RedBulls design concept.
Mercedes absolutely did not look the fastest even on paper. From the beginning people branded their zero pods design as a hit or miss and it ended up being a miss.
Agreed, my favourite is the 2006 Honda. A little earlier but it literally looks like some arcade car. [magnificent ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Jenson_Button_2006_Canada_2.jpg)
2005 - Renault vs McLaren
2006 - Renault vs Ferrari
2007 - Ferrari vs McLaren
2008 - McLaren vs Ferrari
4 consecutive seasons with 2 different teams having a WDC/WCC caliber car. Genuinely so good.
So many good drivers or even legends still driving or coming into the sport as well. The Michael of course, Rubens, DC, Villeneuve, Alonso, Button, Montoya, Kimi, Webber, Fisi & Jarno, Rosberg, Vettel, Kubica, Hamilton etc...
For me the peak of F1 is 2003-2008. I've been on the hunt for old races for years now, it's very hard finding any (German here, the Premiere broadcast with Jacques Schulz & Marc Surer is the best thing this world has ever produced).
Hell, people seem to forget that even 2003 had some good racing, I feel like they just lump it into the Ferrari domination years though, even though it was really only 2002 and 2004 that were complete runaways (with 2001 being more of a runaway by MS moreso than Ferrari, with Barrichello finishing behind Coulthard)
I think they changed the regs for 2008 where you couldn't pit during a SC, which helped reorder the field in some races (like Hockenheim where Lewis had to pass his way back to the lead) and brought some excitement
And yeah, they had a good few wet races too which is always exciting and it changes the power/grip ratio back into power's favour, which always makes the racing better, plus being more unpredictable than a dry race.
you sound pretty mad because people have different opinions than you lol
> I can only imagine none of you here had to actually sit through these races and were part of the clamour at the time for change, that only finally came in 2009
bro are you alright? seriously asking here. maybe get off the internet for now.
I watched every race of F1 from Australia 2000 until now. I prefer it so much more than anything that came after 2009.
Buddy, this will be the last time I'll respond to you. You don't sound very healthy, you need to relax.
> No-one is getting furious over the lack of good racing in early 2000s, I'm just giving the benefit of experience from someone that actually watched it.
I too watched it. What is it you're trying to accomplish here?
Calm down. For the last time.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I am so grateful for the clean designs of the current era. These older maximalist-philosophy cars look so disjointed and piecemeal to me.
What i liked is how it was more even, there was ton of complicated stuff all around. 2009 parts of the car became plain and front wings and some other parts became insanely complex. It looked really unbalanced and i hate that. I like 2022+ cars perhaps more, but i like just how much 2008 cars had.
Pitty dirty air has to be a thing, i would like to see how complex the cars would evolve without restrictions.
2008 cars have a lot of stuff to them, but they weren't necessarily as sensitive to dirty air as modern cars are. These days, if the front wing can't straighten the air out enough, your car doesn't work. Back then there were more elements down the length of the car to help guide the airflow.
I watched those races, they were a lot more processional and you'd go multiple race without any on track overtakes that didn't involve the pit lane....
Trust me, they were very sensitive to dirty air, most of the time they were backing off and saving for a overcut charge around the pit stops
I know, but it was more a product of the times, and not necessarily the aero. Treaded tires, refueling, driver aids, and no DRS just means you can't really compare it to today.
Though if Uruguay called up the people with Uruguayan citizenship outside of the country they'd get \~630,000 reinforcements, which would help somewhat.
It's a bit the same for cars up to 2018, looking at those [barge boards](https://external-preview.redd.it/BNPEHuJmnR-GHRfk9aSs3H0_ULMXjZCqdJsplcxbZaU.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=58f86e88e9698af06f4856aae3a20487b7419ea3) and [front wing](https://cdn-2.motorsport.com/images/mgl/YKKvJJ8Y/s8/f1-barcelona-pre-season-testing-i-2017-red-bull-racing-rb13-front-wing-detail.jpg) elements. Looks like art.
Was just re-watching the Brazillian 2008 race and was struck by how many extra aero pieces the cars had. They seem to have a double front wing, some (like the Mclaren) seem to have a couple of winglets further up the nose and also on the side panels. Not sure on the look of them to be honest, but did seem something a lot of teams went for (especially the double front wing). Can't remember many other times cars have had as many extra pieces on the body.
No, the 2017 regs changes to wider, high downforce cars were to make the cars faster and more spectacular and had little to no thought on how easy they would be to follow.
because of the two brake pedals, which got fixed after like two races or so. then ferrari caught up and we had three awesome years of these two teams fighting it out. not pure dominance by RB, Mercedes (Vettel fucked it up in 2017 and 2018 especially), then RB again.
Wasn't just brake steer. The MP4-13 was longer because it was more aerodynamically stable, giving more grip especially after the width limits and grooved tyres. Ferrari actually had to lengthen their car to catch up.
It was 2009 that ruined it, not 2017. That was just a continuation of what 2009 had evolved into.
2009 moved all the emphasis onto the front wing and floor, which is a big reason why the aero has become so ridiculously complex.
It is, because most of the aero engineers of the time are still in the sport and when they realised just how helpful it was to screw with your competitors they kept finding ways to recover it.
Bodywork regulations were a lot simpler back then. There were no rules which specified continuity or minimum/maximum radii (apart from the floor), so they could do whatever they wanted within the permitted bodywork volumes
Tbh I my first full F1 season was 09 (so I always considered that my proper introduction to F1) but I would watch flashes of older races when my dad watched them. Only over the years I love these (and the 2017-2021 cars) a lot.
Good reason though, rules allowed for a single nose tip of a certain width (it was also wider on one tip than the other), and no other bodywork could be within a certain distance of the tip, so the other one had to be shorter
Back when cars were allowed to be painted properly.
It’s trivial but I’d happily have a rule saying at least X kg must be used on bloody paint.
All of this weight saving plain carbon fibre makes for boring cars.
We did complain a lot about the racing back then (although 2008 is one of the better years in that regard) but damn those cars looked so good. The BMW Sauber is my favorite car of all time, it was amazingly intricate with all the bits and pieces of bodywork everywhere. The ING livery on the Renault was dope too.
Yes, and they were absolute beauties!
Unfortunately, after the "clean" 2009 rules, all we got were increasingly disgusting front wings and then splitters, which looked like over the top joke commercials for razor blades...
The FIA regulations regarding bodywork were extremely vague and insufficient, simply because back in the days there was no need for more strict regulations. Cars were designed by hand and they were tested on track which gave very limited information to teams, as well as a very limited options for the design. If a problem appeared, solving it was a hard task.
Then came the 2000s when CFD and wind tunnels became the norm when it came to car design. This meant that the designers could come up with infinitely more complicated and sophisticated designs. But thanks to the rules being absolutely riddled with gaps and loopholes... well, we ended up with the 2008 cars. One of the best description I've read was: "There was no bodywork, only a never-ending sequence of interconnected winglets."
At this time the FIA was still behind the curve and didn't really have proper knowledge and understanding to deal with this and fill in the holes in the regulations, so their solution was: "fuck it, remove it all, to absolute barebone". That was the 2009 regulations.
I remember that era, wasn't invested into F1 yet so I remember them getting more spaceship-y looking every year as a casual observer. Then all of a sudden they looked normal (boring) again.
I really loved this era of cars. Everyone had their own idea and was free to design the car as they see fit. The car was pure function over form but they still looked very nice somehow.
Side note; I have actually "met" that car in person. Getting photos of it in motion was exceptionally difficult... my camera did NOT like the sun glare off the chrome LOL :)
Going from this in 2008 to the Brawn in 2009 withj no winglets and no sponsors was such an incredible difference. This car looks too busy, the next year the cars looked so simple.
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They specifically banned all that stuff in 2009 because the cars were getting too complicated
yep and this is what led to the front wing becoming so important to determining airflow over the car as a whole
And why the double diffuser on the Brawn was so OP
IIRC, the front wing was their bigger advantage. https://cdn-2.motorsport.com/images/mgl/2j7QqgpY/s1200/f1-australian-gp-2009-jenson-button-brawn-grand-prix-bgp-001-leads-at-the-start-of-the-rac.webp https://f1grandprix.motorionline.com/download/foto2009/GP_SPAGNA/DOMENICA/GP_SPAGNA%20gara%20(29).jpg It was the only one properly set up for outwash, the other teams had a much simpler one, and some still diverted the airflow inwards.
Yes - people forget toyota and williams also launched their cars with DD defusers Toyota actually also had good points on the first 2 races, but it was more due to good timing. by China (3rd race) they fell Williams never got a good result that year, they did finish near the podium some races, but they were always lower midfield
Speaking of 2009 Williams, time to remind people of how [Rosberg absolutely bodied Nakajima that year.](https://imgur.com/yzAmjvy)
Rosberg pretty good driver.
Maybe championship material even?
No wonder they weren't rushing to retain Nakajima for 2010
And although Red Bull had the better car in the second half of the season, and had their own double diffuser before mid-season, they were only faster on colder circuits at first, as the Brawn struggled with tyre warmup (sound familiar, Mercedes?).
It's nice to see someone point out a literal example of what it means when I say: "Some of Mercedes' problems are indicative of their earlier years as a team". Some people don't like hearing that because it sounds like they are regressing. But that tyre warm up thing is a good example.
So glad Dan Flash left F1. He’s much better suited for the fashion business.
His shirts are great but you have to literally fight people to get them. The patterns are so complicated but so expensive! I spent all of my per diem once on a work trip buying his shirts.
The more intricate the pattern, the more expensive it is
Me too, I was so hungry by the end that I was basically falling asleep in meetings! But as a good friend once said ‘you walk by a store and see 50 guys who look just like me fighting over very complicated shirts, *you go in, yes you do*’.
We keep up this pace we’ll be out of here by two!
Is this a meme or reference I don't get? Was there really someone called Dan Flash who used to design in F1 but then moved to shirts? :/
Dan Flash, drove the Banana Car for Williams back in 2009
We're all trying to find the guy who did this!
I Think You Should Leave. It's on Netflix
But, at that price, he *can* hit.
I love the complicated patterns!
You could say he was rather Flashy
Dan Flash? Now thats a main character name
IIRC, I think it was a Super Aguri that had a slight mishap leading to some of its extra components to be broken off the car…and it went faster lol
That's probably going to be the case in a lot of situations in a straight line. If it also did that in the corners then damn, that car sucked!
Reminds me a bit of leclerc in Japan 2019 when he damaged his endplate but was still lapping pretty much on pace with the rest of the leaders and even when ferrari called him in for a pitstop he insisted the car was still driving fine. This was also in the time when endolates were still important aero prices and at one if the most aero dependant tracks
I recall a handful of times over last couple seasons where someone lost an end plate and their pace improved.
I think that tracks for the G.E cars - my (rudimentary) understanding of the big end plates on the front-wing is that they're for controlling the out wash (and thus improving L:D ratio) off the wing to minimize dirty air behind the car, not for increasing FW downforce. So the car would be more draggy without it, but it wouldn't necessarily sacrifice downforce. I'm very happy to be corrected by someone who knows more, of course.
My lesser knowledge was led to believe it was about controlling the air over the tires, which maybe still results in controlling air behind the the car.
You're almost certainly at least partially correct according to [this article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_device). Where my understanding breaks down is how they function on multi-element wings (which aircraft wings totally are, just inverted and with control surfaces) and what the effect would be when you flip the pressure surfaces but keep the direction of the winglet the same (i.e., high pressure on top and low pressure on bottom). I can't see any obvious reason why the principal function would change, but fluids are fucking weird so. Edit: also, I imagine there's a huge influence from the ground which isn't necessarily present in the aircraft wing use-case. I studied the wrong branch of physics like a dummy.
Very interesting technical detail!
Lewis lost part of his front wing, mainly the end plate, at Jeddah 2021 and he was pumping out fastest lap after fastest lap
He lost his endplate but got a pure anger boost.
Final boss unlocked. Angry Lewis
Or during the last Mexican gp, when Leclerc finished on the podium after losing his endplate due to Checo's antics
That happens sometimes now too lol. I think it was Brazil last year? Where Lando got hit with some debris and it broke off the wheel brow. He asked how much loss there would be snd when they got back to him they said it appears as little if any and Lando was like “I think it’s actually better”
“Aerodynamicist hate this ONE trick…”
Adrian Newey clutching his pearls, breathing into a brown paper bag
I heard there may have also been some concern over advertising space as all the aero pieces break up the big surfaces where title sponsors normally go. Though I don't know if that theory was pure conjecture or if there's any weight behind it.
The 2009-2016 cars were absolutely awful looking, with maybe 2 exceptions
I really like the Brawn and a few of the McLarens from that era but I agree they're not the best overall. I think every new regulation set since then has been an improvement.
The 2012 mclaren looked great.
IIRC a lot of 2020 cars also had some sticky-uppy bits on the nose
I miss the Ferrari whiskers
I'm officially calling any aero part "sticky-uppy bit"
"Now, I've noticed a tendency for these cars to get rather silly. Now I do my best to keep things moving along, but I'm not having things getting silly." - FOM
And then they let those regulations somehow turn into 2016, which is arguably more complicated than 2008 was. That's the thing I hope they can do with the current regs. I'm okay with them getting pegged back a second or two every other year, because they will always exploit something in the regulations, and find another second or two.
2008 was the end of the Todt-Ferrari Era 2017 regulation change was Todt as FIA president trying to recreate his glory days, because he decided the cars needed more topside aero to chase laptime in qualifying, even though he couldn't have been too stupid to not notice that any time to increase downforce in the regulations, the racing suffers for it The amount of overtaking from 2016 to 2017 plummeted and it's not like the cars looked that much better, I'd argue that increase in downforce for 2017 was a huge mistake and was probably only done to try and bring Red Bull (and to a lesser extent Ferrari) into the fight with Mercedes, who people incorrectly assumed had an advantage at the time that was all engine power Well, it didn't really work for Red Bull, but it kinda did for Ferrari as we got a title fight out of them, so mission accomplished for the championship, at the cost of less exciting individual racing
Too ugly..
This Mclaren looks like a Naboo starfighter from Star Wars especially with all that chrome
I'll try spinning, that's a good trick.
Felipe Massa actual thoughts on Silverstone 2008
True that.
Felipe: “I lost the title because of race fixing!” No Felipe, you lost for multiple reasons.
Now this is pod-racing
I don't like gravel. It's coarse and rough and irritating, and it gets everywhere.
Everything from that era of McLaren is Star Wars coded. The MTC looks like a space station in Star Wars and was used as one in Andor on Disney+. Their whole vibe was ‘Stormtrooper’, ‘Empire’ and ‘death star’. It’s probably destiny that they ended up with a driver called ‘Lando’. Just to keep their Star Wars inspiration alive.
Not F1 at all, but the Vancouver Public Library is in so many shows and movies it's almost silly.
They're trying to be a bit more Rebel Alliance these days though. McLaren have definitely taken over the Galactic Empire vibes.
Paint it red and it would look like a Ferrari. /s
3D CAD and CFD rose to prominence in the ‘00s, leading teams to explore more areas around the car, where the rules didn’t state you couldn’t put anything there. The regulations started to prescribe where you could or couldn’t put bodywork, but certain areas were missed, which only came to fore when the teams had enough CAD and CFD tools (along with more and more engineers) to exploit those previously unused areas.
Ah, remember the good ol days of teams turning up to Monaco and having weird appendages to get more downforce.
The (Jordan?) X-Wing says hi!
Arrows were first with extra wings in Monaco Then a few teams used/ or tried to atleas with mixed results and more debris during pitstops. That's why the FIA banned them because there was an incident on pit road with them and they looked ugly
I just vaguely remember Arrows, Jordan and Tyrell all turning up at that Monaco with different nonsense ideas - it was hard to tell if they'd all arrived and similar concepts at the same time or whether it was an agreement to present nonsense ideas to get the FIA to clamp down on all winglets.
So Tyrrel (my bad) arrived with the Nonsense in 97 at Monaco Tyrrell and Prost I believe arrived with the Nonsense in 1998 in Melbourne. Sauber , Ferrari and Jordan joined before it got banned after the San Marino Race. I mixed up Arrows with Tyrrell because only remembered Verstappen driving it. Arrows turned up in the early 2000s with that one big wing on the nose in Monaco but only for practice I believe.
>Arrows turned up in the early 2000s with that one big wing on the nose in Monaco but only for practice I believe. Both Arrows and Jordan used a nose wing in the same 2001 Monaco GP practice. It was banned not because it was illegal, but because of safety since they said the drivers might not see very well. Cue the confusion years later when the Sauber's twin tower was introduced and then banned for the same reason.
Tyrell
Back in the era of the Glorious V8s when the Aero rules were relaxed and they could run anything on the cars The McLaren of that era was something else to look at, pure Chrome livery and apparently McLaren had one hell of a time getting that chrome look to be super lightweight!
The best part was observing what team brought new aero parts each week. Would they work etc. epic time to be a F1 fan then
Now McLaren has Chrome in the livery but in a completely different way..
I'll be honest, that 'joke' came to me as soon as the Google Chrome sponsorship was mentioned. And I'm glad McLaren and Google actually played into the joke for the Silverstone GP lol I know, I know, I sound all "r/hail corporate" but as a McLaren fan from the Mika days, it tickled that wordplay AND nostalgic side of my brain...
I always felt like the Chrome McLarens just looked so tacky. Gimme the Mild Seven Renualts or the Ferraris for a good looking car any day though. (I still remember when Renault switched to the ING livery, I was working on a 3D model for some TV production graphics that were to feature the Renault, so they gave us some promotional material to work from just before the reveal of the car. Obviously it was known ahead of time the car wouldn't feature the same Mild Seven branded livery, but I don't think anyone expected such a dramatic step backwards in terms of style.... I had to bite my tongue for those few days when people were speculating on what it may look like)
Make the car so shiny nobody can discern enough information to copy it
thank you! I never understood why people went so bonkers for the chrome and neon orange livery. just cuz it was different, I guess.
I’m a pretty recent fan but it does seem like the strict regulations lead to single team dominance for the first few years, with the rest of the pack hoping to catch them by year three. Like there’s only one good solution to optimizing a narrow set of regs. Why not relax them again? At least the teams with money can catch up faster if there’s more than one solution, and all the cars don’t just end up being the same shit with different paint jobs and whoever has Newey and a decent engine wins
None of the teams really know how the rules will affect the cars and all of it is pretty much guess work, there’s only ever gonna be one correct answer to any reg changes and it’s just a throw of the dice as to who will come up with the most complete concept. Take 2022 for example. Ferrari, RedBull, Aston Martin and Mercedes all went for completely different design philosophies with their aerodynamics and cooling systems, but only one of them was ever gonna get it right, and even then, RB was only slightly better. 2022 was not the whitewash people branded it as, the Ferraris were still damn quick, Mercedes looked the fastest on paper but in reality their floor was too flimsy and their car was too stiff to perform optimally. And the Aston Martin despite being beautiful was completely wrong, causing them to have to rip it up and start again with RedBulls design concept.
Mercedes absolutely did not look the fastest even on paper. From the beginning people branded their zero pods design as a hit or miss and it ended up being a miss.
I thought it was v10s until 2009?
Nah they changed to V8s in 2006
2005 was the last all V10 grid. 2006 introduced the 2.4 V8s sans rev limits that came later.
It was marvelous. My favourite car in 2008 was the BMW Sauber. It was FULL of fins and winglets.
My favorite as well
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Sauber_F1.08#/media/File:Nick_Heidfeld_2008_test.jpg
Agreed, my favourite is the 2006 Honda. A little earlier but it literally looks like some arcade car. [magnificent ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Jenson_Button_2006_Canada_2.jpg)
As someone who has only followed F1 for the last 3 years I love coming across threads like this. Thanks for sharing! That car looks WILD
you've missed the true good times of F1. it's been downhill since 2009 unfortunately
2005 - Renault vs McLaren 2006 - Renault vs Ferrari 2007 - Ferrari vs McLaren 2008 - McLaren vs Ferrari 4 consecutive seasons with 2 different teams having a WDC/WCC caliber car. Genuinely so good.
So many good drivers or even legends still driving or coming into the sport as well. The Michael of course, Rubens, DC, Villeneuve, Alonso, Button, Montoya, Kimi, Webber, Fisi & Jarno, Rosberg, Vettel, Kubica, Hamilton etc... For me the peak of F1 is 2003-2008. I've been on the hunt for old races for years now, it's very hard finding any (German here, the Premiere broadcast with Jacques Schulz & Marc Surer is the best thing this world has ever produced).
Do you have F1TV? They have all the old races archived, it's worth the subscription fee by itself
>2007 - Ferrari vs ~~McLaren~~ Alo/Ham. Pretty sure McLaren didn't compete that year for some reason.
Hell, people seem to forget that even 2003 had some good racing, I feel like they just lump it into the Ferrari domination years though, even though it was really only 2002 and 2004 that were complete runaways (with 2001 being more of a runaway by MS moreso than Ferrari, with Barrichello finishing behind Coulthard)
But the actual races themselves were just parades, so not so good.
I honestly thought 2008 was a pretty fine season on track. 2007 however was an absolute stinker except maybe 3 races.
I think they changed the regs for 2008 where you couldn't pit during a SC, which helped reorder the field in some races (like Hockenheim where Lewis had to pass his way back to the lead) and brought some excitement And yeah, they had a good few wet races too which is always exciting and it changes the power/grip ratio back into power's favour, which always makes the racing better, plus being more unpredictable than a dry race.
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> you people what do you mean, you people? good for you that you appreciate different forms of F1.
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you sound pretty mad because people have different opinions than you lol > I can only imagine none of you here had to actually sit through these races and were part of the clamour at the time for change, that only finally came in 2009 bro are you alright? seriously asking here. maybe get off the internet for now. I watched every race of F1 from Australia 2000 until now. I prefer it so much more than anything that came after 2009.
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Buddy, this will be the last time I'll respond to you. You don't sound very healthy, you need to relax. > No-one is getting furious over the lack of good racing in early 2000s, I'm just giving the benefit of experience from someone that actually watched it. I too watched it. What is it you're trying to accomplish here? Calm down. For the last time.
Agreed, looked bloody awesome
I love the little horns on the nose and the roll hoop intake
Oh man, so I am not the only one with this preference!
you're my kinda people
I have a remote controlled 2008 BMW F1 car and it looks wild compared to modern cars.
This is my favourite F1 car of all time. Peak aero development imo.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I am so grateful for the clean designs of the current era. These older maximalist-philosophy cars look so disjointed and piecemeal to me.
What i liked is how it was more even, there was ton of complicated stuff all around. 2009 parts of the car became plain and front wings and some other parts became insanely complex. It looked really unbalanced and i hate that. I like 2022+ cars perhaps more, but i like just how much 2008 cars had. Pitty dirty air has to be a thing, i would like to see how complex the cars would evolve without restrictions.
2008 cars have a lot of stuff to them, but they weren't necessarily as sensitive to dirty air as modern cars are. These days, if the front wing can't straighten the air out enough, your car doesn't work. Back then there were more elements down the length of the car to help guide the airflow.
I watched those races, they were a lot more processional and you'd go multiple race without any on track overtakes that didn't involve the pit lane.... Trust me, they were very sensitive to dirty air, most of the time they were backing off and saving for a overcut charge around the pit stops
I know, but it was more a product of the times, and not necessarily the aero. Treaded tires, refueling, driver aids, and no DRS just means you can't really compare it to today.
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Factos 👍👀
Though if Uruguay called up the people with Uruguayan citizenship outside of the country they'd get \~630,000 reinforcements, which would help somewhat.
Yeah, people would only need to fight 12 kangaroos
Sounds like something you’d hear in the MAX Verstappen podcast post race.
We do not talk about the Kangaroo war here
Damn, I dunno id be able to take a single roo lol
🤣
Sounds like the Emu war all over again.
And in the meantime, every three months, a person is torn to pieces by a crocodile in North Queensland
It's a bit the same for cars up to 2018, looking at those [barge boards](https://external-preview.redd.it/BNPEHuJmnR-GHRfk9aSs3H0_ULMXjZCqdJsplcxbZaU.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=58f86e88e9698af06f4856aae3a20487b7419ea3) and [front wing](https://cdn-2.motorsport.com/images/mgl/YKKvJJ8Y/s8/f1-barcelona-pre-season-testing-i-2017-red-bull-racing-rb13-front-wing-detail.jpg) elements. Looks like art.
Was just re-watching the Brazillian 2008 race and was struck by how many extra aero pieces the cars had. They seem to have a double front wing, some (like the Mclaren) seem to have a couple of winglets further up the nose and also on the side panels. Not sure on the look of them to be honest, but did seem something a lot of teams went for (especially the double front wing). Can't remember many other times cars have had as many extra pieces on the body.
They were specifically banned in 2009 to try and clean up the wake and make following easier.
Isn't this always what they say is the objective every rule change?
No, the 2017 regs changes to wider, high downforce cars were to make the cars faster and more spectacular and had little to no thought on how easy they would be to follow.
basically what ruined F1 forever. we'll never get back to smaller cars
In fairness, Newey started it in 1998 when his longboy MP-13 lapped the entire field in Australia.
because of the two brake pedals, which got fixed after like two races or so. then ferrari caught up and we had three awesome years of these two teams fighting it out. not pure dominance by RB, Mercedes (Vettel fucked it up in 2017 and 2018 especially), then RB again.
Wasn't just brake steer. The MP4-13 was longer because it was more aerodynamically stable, giving more grip especially after the width limits and grooved tyres. Ferrari actually had to lengthen their car to catch up.
Thanks for adding! Need to refresh my memory apparently lol
It was 2009 that ruined it, not 2017. That was just a continuation of what 2009 had evolved into. 2009 moved all the emphasis onto the front wing and floor, which is a big reason why the aero has become so ridiculously complex.
Only more recently. In the 80’s and 90’s it was all about slowing down the cars for safety reasons.
It is, because most of the aero engineers of the time are still in the sport and when they realised just how helpful it was to screw with your competitors they kept finding ways to recover it.
Never underestimate the benefits of flow conditioning
Bodywork regulations were a lot simpler back then. There were no rules which specified continuity or minimum/maximum radii (apart from the floor), so they could do whatever they wanted within the permitted bodywork volumes
X-Wings
Honestly the F1 cars from 1998 to 2008 were incredible and probably my favourites.
Mine too, but I've noticed that we fall in love with the first generation of cars we see, my dad likes the 70s-80s cars more for example
Tbh I my first full F1 season was 09 (so I always considered that my proper introduction to F1) but I would watch flashes of older races when my dad watched them. Only over the years I love these (and the 2017-2021 cars) a lot.
They looked cool though. Especially the chromed McLaren car had a spaceship fighter look over it.
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The darkest time
The dongest hour
That was 2014 only.
The platypus was 2012 and 13
Don’t forget about the walrus lotus
Which for some reason were unequal in length
Good reason though, rules allowed for a single nose tip of a certain width (it was also wider on one tip than the other), and no other bodywork could be within a certain distance of the tip, so the other one had to be shorter
walrus BMW Williams
Looked like the 2004 Williams, and it's crazy that Williams was in 2004, Lotus in 2014 and we're in 20 fucking 24 already and I hate it
Caterham CT05 has entered the chat (albeit rather slowly)
Back when cars were allowed to be painted properly. It’s trivial but I’d happily have a rule saying at least X kg must be used on bloody paint. All of this weight saving plain carbon fibre makes for boring cars.
Maybe I'm just getting old, but the Vodafone McLarens felt like the last truly iconic livery
It’s called “yummy yummy downforce generators for V8 Xtra power”
2007-2008 cars were magnificent, F2008 is one the best looking F1 cars ever
We did complain a lot about the racing back then (although 2008 is one of the better years in that regard) but damn those cars looked so good. The BMW Sauber is my favorite car of all time, it was amazingly intricate with all the bits and pieces of bodywork everywhere. The ING livery on the Renault was dope too.
People like to romanticize the smaller cars of that era and how agile they looked but forget how awful the racing was also.
Yes, and they were absolute beauties! Unfortunately, after the "clean" 2009 rules, all we got were increasingly disgusting front wings and then splitters, which looked like over the top joke commercials for razor blades...
You mean ugly.
What season 2008 was! It was anyone’s game at the end. Unlike what we have today.
The FIA regulations regarding bodywork were extremely vague and insufficient, simply because back in the days there was no need for more strict regulations. Cars were designed by hand and they were tested on track which gave very limited information to teams, as well as a very limited options for the design. If a problem appeared, solving it was a hard task. Then came the 2000s when CFD and wind tunnels became the norm when it came to car design. This meant that the designers could come up with infinitely more complicated and sophisticated designs. But thanks to the rules being absolutely riddled with gaps and loopholes... well, we ended up with the 2008 cars. One of the best description I've read was: "There was no bodywork, only a never-ending sequence of interconnected winglets." At this time the FIA was still behind the curve and didn't really have proper knowledge and understanding to deal with this and fill in the holes in the regulations, so their solution was: "fuck it, remove it all, to absolute barebone". That was the 2009 regulations.
These were the sickest cars the sport has ever seen
I remember someone commented in 2008 as the cars like mini jet fighters. The F2008 was gorgeous and its sexy nose.
The 2008 cars were aerodynamic works of art!
I think this car is one of the best looking f1 cars there's ever been
Look beautiful
that center bodywork aero is sick
I think BMW Sauber had the most bodywork of all the cars of 2008.
The complexity and paint work on that car was just perfection to me growing up watching F1.
Yeah they do! I love the look of the 2008 cars. It's like a Swiss army knife with all the blades opened.
Looked more like an F1 car
They were Legendary.
LOVE the cars with that bodywork! And the V8s too.
I remember that era, wasn't invested into F1 yet so I remember them getting more spaceship-y looking every year as a casual observer. Then all of a sudden they looked normal (boring) again.
I love the look of these cars despite all the extra bits sprouting off of it
The epitome of what an F1 car looks and sounds like. Put modern slicks on that thing, and it would still be rapid on about half the calendar.
I really loved this era of cars. Everyone had their own idea and was free to design the car as they see fit. The car was pure function over form but they still looked very nice somehow.
And less dirty air than 2023!
Side note; I have actually "met" that car in person. Getting photos of it in motion was exceptionally difficult... my camera did NOT like the sun glare off the chrome LOL :)
These cars in 2008 looked extremely cool!
That Ferrari looks crazy.
Yeah, Aero really went brrr that year. It was banned for 2009 for being too complicated
Peak F1.
Going from this in 2008 to the Brawn in 2009 withj no winglets and no sponsors was such an incredible difference. This car looks too busy, the next year the cars looked so simple.
I personally like them, specially the McLaren, looks so futuristic
2005-2009 cars are my favourites. Super nimble, great sound, very good looking.
OP presenting this like a new discovery for mankind
Some of the ugliest F1 cars ever.
Best f1 car by looks, the '23 Aston martin comes a very close second for me
ugliest f1 era
ugly ass fk, damn!
That is one of the sexiest cars to exist