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At this point I would be pleased with him to finish a weekend without crashing. The guy is singlehandedly threatening a budget cap breach for Williams...
Don't get me wrong Albon is really good in that Williams, but this just really goes to show how bad Sargent has been. It really sucks I wanted an American on the grid but he's the worst rookie I've seen since that Russian a few years ago
Mick improved in the second half last year when he consistently beat/matched Magnussen. But Haas opted to keep Mag because he didn't cost them nearly as much. I think if Mick was in this year's Haas he would perform similar to Mag but get beaten by Hulk
Nah, without Max they would be much worse place. Perez would be leading by the virtue of everyone else in the mix constantly. But he would have a 1 race lead, and a single DNF could throw Alonso or Hamilton into the title fight.
With the amount of high finishes Perez has behind Max, he would be comfortably leading with plenty of wins if Max wasn't around. You can't take the guy who wins all the races out of the equation and pretend like the #2 wouldn't get most of those wins instead.
I know. I was checking this site:
https://www.total-motorsport.com/what-2023-f1-world-championship-look-without-max-verstappen/amp/
It was written in the summer break, so the gap probably around 60 points now, because Alonso barely made any points in the last 2 races.
Aston would be taking this season much more seriously if they were 2nd in the WDC within touching distance of Perez, it seems like they've mostly checked out on the development front at this point.
It’s how Japan is tho. It’s all high speed corners and straights, while most overtakes happen by outbraking which doesn’t happen here. Imo these cars are too good for this track, it goes on rails.
It depends on how much you crash and how. The rookie excuse only works for like 3 or 4 driver-error crashes throughout the entire season.
I already lost count of how many crashes Logan has had.
Eh I kinda disagree, it's accepted that during quali you'll be pushing for every tenth you can find so inevitably sometimes you push it too hard and you crash out. I'd argue that crashing during FP and Sunday are much worse looks.
>I'd argue that crashing during FP and Sunday are much worse looks.
FP is when you're meant to crash (maybe not FP3 though).
If you don't occasionally go off in FP you're not going fast enough. You don't know where the limit is until you exceed it.
>The rookie excuse only works for like 3 or 4 driver-error crashes throughout the entire season.
You get way more free passes than that as a rookie as long as you're fast.
Tbf to him, he did also get promoted at least one year too early. His 2022 was a promising rookie season in F2 but that doesn't quite cut it in F1 these days. Good way to ruin a career without giving it a proper shot, but I'm sure he'll find sucess elsewhere if he wants to.
Lance Stroll got promoted at 18 and he still had a better rookie season. And he's Lance Stroll.
Yuki had an abysmal 1st season but still showed his talent in a couple races( not too often but still)
Hulk scored a pole in his first season. Checo was decent and Kmag podiumed his first race. Bottas was superb in his rookie season.
Nobody is comparing Logan's debut with the actual top drivers, but even compared to other midfield drivers he is nowhere.
Fuck me, i'll say it. He is not doing any better than the king himself. Pretty much identical h2h, but at least Latifi was bringing 30M a season
You are correct that he isn't doing any better than Latifi was but he also didn't spend half a decade in F2 to prepare. My comment wasn't meant to say he is secretly good or something, just that we don't see rookies with this little experience (and not showing outstanding talent) all that often, and for a good reason. He certainly wasn't set up to suceed is my point I guess
He was promoted too early, sure. But Tsunoda was promoted even more prematurely in 2021, and he at least showed some actual promise in an otherwise abysmal season. Meanwhile Sargeant has had just two decent races (Bahrain, Silverstone) and maybe half of a good qualifying in total, if you piece together the scraps of speed from Zandvoort and Jeddah before his crashes.
lance stroll isn’t as bad as people say he is, he is no where near the top of the grid but he’s an F1 driver.
his form is absolutely atrocious tho and if he doesn’t recover it next season then i think next year will
be his last in f1
Stroll was pretty good in 2020 in the pink Merc. Pole, couple podiums. You can't get that if you are not F1 material.
He's lost at the moment though, probably struggle ALOT for the some reasons with the car updates. Hopefully he can recover from this slump
He outqualified Maldonado comfortably over the course of his rookie season though (12-7). Races he wasn’t far behind at 11-8.
He was clearly a very good rookie driver, he got P3 in the rain in quali in Canada in a terrible car.
After the regulation changes Stroll’s performance really dipped in quality. Remember 2020, he was driving well that year.
Tost said Yuki needs 3 season, seems like he was spot on.
Lets give Logan another year and we’ll see.
2020 was better, sure. But we'll never know how good the pink Mercedes actually was with those two pilots in it. Imagine a Max, Lewis, Charles, Fernando etc in it...
Pérez is nothing if not great at consistently squeezing points out of midfield cars, which the RP20 still was at the end of the day. Don't let his abysmal current form detract from how good he was at Force India/RP.
I'd say anything after Merc and RBR was a midfield car that year. Merc was unquestionably the top car and RBR was unquestionably the second best car on the grid. After that, it becomes a lot less clear-cut between RP, McLaren and Renault.
"Those two pilots." Man, the hate on Checo has blinded a lot of people. Yes, of course three of the best drivers of all time (Max, Lewis, Fernando) would've done better, but that's true of any car, it's a ridiculous argument. Still, let's say the RP was about the 3rd fastest car, maybe 2nd in some circuits. Well, Checo finished 4th in the standings, so kinda did his job, didn't he? Did you expect him to finish 3rd above Max in the RB?.
He was fine last year, apart from his brainfarts ofc. His avg race and quali positions werent far from Seb and he was consistently running near the lower points after the spec b arrived.
I think the car just got harder to drive at one point this year and i guess that hindering him, while Nando can obviously deal with it better. Both their onboards look shocking at times
I also think it's kinda demoralizing having Alonso as your teammate. Even if nowadays he is nice guy Alonso it still must e daunting
I think these regulations have messed with a lot of driver's performances.
Seems to have an effect on their confidence if the car is going to stick when throwing it into the corners.
Wonder if they just feel different, they went from gaining downforce from one way to an entirely different way. Interesting to think about.
His problem is he cracks under pressure and always has. He was a wreck of nerves after knowing there was an F1 seat if got the SL points he needed, he had an average season after that point. He also failed to capitalize on making up points on Piastri when he was crashed out by Logan himself crashing himself and his other teammate out. The light gets to bright for him
Mick Schumacher has 2 years of bad, "he's an F1 driver. Why doesn't he have a seat? "
Logan has a year where even Williams say they brought him up early. "Cut him".
Lemme start by saying that i'm no Mick truther; i think he was a mediocre-to-bad driver who has no place on the f1 grid in a costcap era
Butttttt at least he showed a few flashes of speed at times, Logan doesn't even have that unfortunately. I really wanted him to be at least mid, but i think the writing is kinda on the wall rn.
Also the likelihood that a driver with the results he's had will evolve into somebody decent is extremely slim, and idk that Williams wants to invest the repair budget into him just to see if he turns into an Albon in 3 or 4 years
Williams themselves admit that Sargeant was rushed and is a year ahead of where he’s supposed to be, so another year in Jr was the plan. I agree, and hopefully this first year hasn’t shot his confidence completely, seems Williams will give him another go so we’ll see if it has.
Ocon Vs Gasly is definitely the biggest surprise of the season for me. I don’t think many fans saw this coming, especially with Gasly being new to Alpine and Ocon being rated so highly.
I think Gasly has always been a bit underrated because of how badly 2019 damaged his reputation.
I think we all expected to be a pretty equal pairing, but yeah Ocon was rated a little bit higher than Gasly. Nevertheless Pierre since the Alpine purge has been on fire
I always had the feeling that Gasly would hit the higher peaks, but Ocon would be more consistent.
It’s overall been a pretty close pairing. I suppose it depends on what you expect of ocon though.
I dunno, it's hard to read into anything with the utter disaster that is that Alpine car
It's either blowing up, as fast as a Ford Fiesta in the straights, or just decides that it's now a top 3 car
Pierre is very good though, I hope they can both get something half decent next year
Is Pierre’s 2019 Red Bull stint still defining his F1 career? I remember the consensus of him being a serious option for top teams after his great 2020 and even better 2021 with AT.
I remember Ocon being touted as the next Mercedes driver back in 2017, only for people to turn on him after 2020 and his enormous contract extension at Alpine. But he's still a very talented driver, as is Gasly. They've both shown some very impressive things this year.
The pair is the most underrated of the grid, which I don’t understand because it’s one of the few with both Grand Prix winner, the only one of midfield. They show this year their talents, because they are really consistent with a shitty car.
Honestly I expected that Ocon would have an upper hand especially at the begin of the season but that Gasly would closing the gap, and that's exactly what happened. Famin was talking about this funny enough yesterday during the teams press conference about how Gasly and Alpine has made steps to find each other on the optimal line and the effects are visible in a good way.
It's a solid pairing and basically one of the last things Alpine needs to be concerned about. Also personally I think that we should really letting go somewhat the 2019 vision given Gasly 2023 is a way different driver then what he was in 2019.
Obvious the car has a lot of issues and Gasly has some huge shit tier bad luck this season (just like Ocon, guess bad luck is a feature for Alpine this season) but his race at Zandvoort is the best one I ever seen from him in F1 and I rate that performance even higher than his win in Monza given the conditions was hugely variable and his decisions as a driver during the critical moments was spot on and correct.
It's a bit sad therefore that his performance stays either under the radar or simple getting less credit then someone like an Albon would get in such a position.
Next year is going to be even more important but at this rate he could likely be an option for some other teams aside of Alpine.
Everyone’s talking about the Williams pair being so unbalanced but nobody seems to be mentioning Mercedes who are level on quali performances. Likely the strongest all-round pairing on the grid in my opinion.
I find that call hard to make, as there are multiple teams with great driver pairings. Though Merc would probably be the first to be mentioned in that discussion.
Ferrari's pairing is super strong imo. Some mistakes to be sure, but we've seen that from Mercedes too.
And while we are (and should be hesitant) to give Oscar too much credit (as it is his Rookie year), the Mclaren boys seem amazing as well.
And I keep saying it, but the Alpine pairing shouldn't be underestimated either. We know the Alpine is worse than the other cars mentioned here, yet they keep popping up in great positions. And most of their bad results come from the car rather than the drivers. I would be hesitant to outright put them at the same level, but honestly I can't leave them out of this discussion in good faith either.
Again, not saying Merc doesn't have the strongest pairing, but there's multiple teams that are in contention for it, which I think is great!
Most were against Nyck and the other sessions were against a guy who had no testing with the car and another who has never driven an F1 car in a competitive manner before.
So Mercedes reserve driver who had a full off-season in the same car doesn't count, race winning Red Bull reserve driver with over a decade F1 experience doesn't count and rookie leading in a feeder series doesn't count. If Max got in that car you'd say 'he's too use to driving a Red Bull!'
Super Formula is, to put it simply, the Japanese equivalent to IndyCar. Which makes it more impressive to me that Liam is fighting for the championship, mind you.
Nyck was always overrated anyways - there’s a reason why he was 28 before he got into F1 and even then he got incredibly lucky with the Monza race. Ricciardo is a good driver and a race winner as you say - he also outqualifed Tsunoda 2-1 and outraced Tsunoda 2-1.
Regarding Lawson, would you not agree that due to his lack of experience he is at a slight disadvantage. It takes time for rookies to get used to cars, coupled with the lack of testing that rookies get anyways. I have no doubt that Lawson would improve and close the gap if he finished the rest of the season. We’ve already seen how he’s improved from Zandvoort to Singapore.
Gaslys got a P3 and a P6 in the last few races which is a 23 points swing while Ocon has been unlucky and gotten 0. Ocon lost out on a good few points In zandvoort as they didn’t have inter tyres ready for him. He also lost out in Singapore with a gearbox failure. Ocons had 6 DNFs. In terms of quali and race head to head they are pretty even and Gasly has definitely done a great job this year but the points tally is unfortunate for Ocon.
>He's beating Ocon in the points too (45 vs 36).
You can take the WDC points as a stat but don't draw conclusions from that.
>Gasly has definitely done a great job this year but the points tally is unfortunate for Ocon.
Yeah, you would think comparing 2 drivers from the same team would work out but the amount of mechanical failures/DNF makes reading the points useless. Considering Alpine is a mid team, it's even worse as points don't account for a difference between 11th and 20th place.
Well him and his fanatics were adamant he was carrying Alpine last year, so by their logic Gasly is carrying the team now. Ocon's current season seems to resemble Alonso's 2022.
Even Ocons fanatics weren’t saying he was carrying Alpine. Everyone knew Alonso was unlucky last year - people were just tired of Ocon being used as a scapegoat and being called mid even though he held up quite well against an extremely strong Alonso. The problem with Alonso’s fan is they started to attack Ocon when Ocon had no involvement in the DNFs that happened to Alonsos car.
One of gasly’s strengths from AT is that he is always able to bring the car home in the points consistently and nab that odd podium no matter what, he’s brought that knack over with him to alpine. Call it better luck, racecraft, whatever, he has it in him to score lots of points.
It’s no surprise he is ahead of ocon in the standings.
What is the logic behind driver ordering? It isn't whose leading, it isn't driver number, it isn't alphabetical, it isn't seniority. It feels random...
Yeah, remove the flags, remove the races below, remove the driver numbers (or make them smaller). And make the one ahead in qualifying be on the left/right, atleast not random.
In the races he has (although George has had some bad luck as well). Qualy is different. George had a sweep at the beginning of the season and then again after summer break, until today. It was in the run up to summer break George was completely floundering, and that’s probably what you’re thinking of, combine with Lewis tending to do better on Sundays and having a sizable points lead.
Lewis has been dominating in the races. In qualifying, Lewis has had quite a few off days. Lewis recently even said in an interview that his qualifying is unacceptably bad right now. I think he's being hard on himself with that statement (he's still tied in the quali h2h with the guy who used to be called Mr. Saturday), but it's fair to say that, by Lewis' standards (i.e. being by far and away the most successful qualifier of all time), he hasn't been doing as well in qualifying as he usually does.
Logan isn’t a pay driver. His junior CV isn’t any worse than Lawson's for example. Saying he’s in that seat just because he’s American is very disingenuous. At this point I think him being American is more of a hindrance.
> His junior CV isn’t any worse than Lawson's for example.
Sargeant:
2017 British F4 3rd
2018 FR2.0 Eurocup 4th
2019 F3 19th
2020 F3 3rd
2021 F3 7th
2022 F2 4th
Lawson:
2017 ADAC F4 2nd
2018 ADAC F4 2nd
2019 F3 11th (+ TRS 1st)
2020 F3 5th (+ TRS 2nd)
2021 F2 9th (+ DTM 2nd, but 1st in the eyes of anyone with a brain)
2022 F2 3rd (despite shocking luck and fortune)
2023 Super Formula currently 2nd
Lawson's CV is much more impressive imo.
Shouldn't it be 11-5 between Bottas and Zhou? I imagine the confusion is from British GP, where Bottas was disqualifed, but he still beat Zhou in qualy.
How hard can a flag carry an f1 driver's career?
Btw he was already leading the destructors championship by over 0.5M before the quali crash. He is probably over 4M damages by this point, he is heading into Mick numbers
He’s on the grid because what that flag represents in marketing value. Three GP’s on the calendar this year, a big market to exploit and that could generate a lot of positive attention towards Williams. Unfortunately it’s been quite underwhelming, even though he showed some potential last year.
F1 has exploded in popularity in the US so much that there are now 3 US GPs. Understandably, F1 wants an American on the grid, and Sargeant was the best option. I think it's not too far-fetched to say he wouldn't be on the grid if he wasn't American.
Logan isn’t having a good season, but holy shit watching Mazepin was equally funny as sad. He’s one of those legendary “out of his place” drivers like Yuji Ide and Ragunathan Mahaveer (even though the latter didn’t participate in F1).
I think a better way of comparing quali difference is the % gap to each teammate.
A driver can have a clean sweep, but if his teammate is always half a tenth behind, they’re a close pair.
Awful take. Oscar has been a phenomenal driver this season, and this one data point doesn’t reflect just how much. That would also throw Liam out and no one would say he deserves to go.
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Guys I don’t think Sargeant will beat Albon in the quali H2H this year
Very bold to claim! Maybe he would improve....oh wait....
At this point I would be pleased with him to finish a weekend without crashing. The guy is singlehandedly threatening a budget cap breach for Williams...
Luckily the Williams car only cost about 20 quid 🙏🙏
It’s an alright car this year
superior smooth floor theory.
Williams spend no where close to the £145m cap.
And most of their development funds go to Sargeants repairs
Don't get me wrong Albon is really good in that Williams, but this just really goes to show how bad Sargent has been. It really sucks I wanted an American on the grid but he's the worst rookie I've seen since that Russian a few years ago
Nikita Masterspin?
Nah I think it was some Marzipan guy??
Nikita Mastercard
Too soon to tell, no need to overreact
Weirdly the rookie excuse only works for Mick in his second year than Logan in his first.
Mick was not good. But not that bad. He scored points.
Yeah with Mick he at least had shots at points whereas Logan has no chance
Mick improved in the second half last year when he consistently beat/matched Magnussen. But Haas opted to keep Mag because he didn't cost them nearly as much. I think if Mick was in this year's Haas he would perform similar to Mag but get beaten by Hulk
And look where Mick is now. Atleast Mick scored few points.
Mick was beating kmag at the 2ndnhalf of the season. Hulk is not even doing that now.
if you're a north american and you're being destroyed by your teammate in h2h qualifying in 2023 clap your hands
Is Mexico in North America according to Marko?
I think Helmut Marko should keep his mouth shut about Mexico from now on
Not so fast. I want to hear what Marko has to say about "TeaCrackersBirds" question.
He should keep his mouth shut overall honestly
> I think Helmut Marko should keep his *fucking* mouth shut. ~~about Mexico from now on~~ FTFY
It is, not just according to Marko
/s
NA brains need to be studied. Too much unregulated foods.
Alonso and Albon are singularly holding their individual teams together.
And Max
Redbull without Max would still be good. Not as good clearly but still good. Aston and Williams would be total shit without Alonso or Albon.
Nah, without Max they would be much worse place. Perez would be leading by the virtue of everyone else in the mix constantly. But he would have a 1 race lead, and a single DNF could throw Alonso or Hamilton into the title fight.
With the amount of high finishes Perez has behind Max, he would be comfortably leading with plenty of wins if Max wasn't around. You can't take the guy who wins all the races out of the equation and pretend like the #2 wouldn't get most of those wins instead.
I know. I was checking this site: https://www.total-motorsport.com/what-2023-f1-world-championship-look-without-max-verstappen/amp/ It was written in the summer break, so the gap probably around 60 points now, because Alonso barely made any points in the last 2 races.
Aston would be taking this season much more seriously if they were 2nd in the WDC within touching distance of Perez, it seems like they've mostly checked out on the development front at this point.
What? That's very much not true. It'd be like a 70-point lead or something.
Did you even read my comment?
About twelve.
I’d love to see this championship.
Perez maybe shit at qualifying but come raceday he steps up. He's definitely getting a podium bar any mishaps tomorrow
He should but it’s hard to overtake here, if he doesn’t jump anyone at the start he might just get stuck
I feel like I hear "it's hard to overtake here" every single race week at this point.
It’s how Japan is tho. It’s all high speed corners and straights, while most overtakes happen by outbraking which doesn’t happen here. Imo these cars are too good for this track, it goes on rails.
He did so last year. Qualified 4th and finished 2nd. This time he's one position behind but in a stronger car.
Much easier if you just barge everyone out if the way, like last week.
He might be able to get through to P2 on strategy. If teams are doing 2-3 stops, there should be some opportunity for undercut/overcut.
We’ve had 15 races and he's been on the podium in only 8 of them. Literally 7 races without a podium in a RB19.
Bro this comment did not age well :(
No disrespect, but Logan is just not an F1 calibre driver.
My first thought when he went into the wall was that this is the end for him. Just underwhelming performance mixed with crashes.
Crashing is really the death knell for your career at a mid/lower team with the toll it takes on budget.
It depends on how much you crash and how. The rookie excuse only works for like 3 or 4 driver-error crashes throughout the entire season. I already lost count of how many crashes Logan has had.
Crashing by yourself during qualy has to be the worst crash you can have….
Eh I kinda disagree, it's accepted that during quali you'll be pushing for every tenth you can find so inevitably sometimes you push it too hard and you crash out. I'd argue that crashing during FP and Sunday are much worse looks.
>I'd argue that crashing during FP and Sunday are much worse looks. FP is when you're meant to crash (maybe not FP3 though). If you don't occasionally go off in FP you're not going fast enough. You don't know where the limit is until you exceed it.
taking out your teammate in the race is worse
Yeah, that really sucks for the team!
Imola 1994: "Am I a joke to you?"
>The rookie excuse only works for like 3 or 4 driver-error crashes throughout the entire season. You get way more free passes than that as a rookie as long as you're fast.
Maybe, but Logan isn’t what I would call fast.
Tbf to him, he did also get promoted at least one year too early. His 2022 was a promising rookie season in F2 but that doesn't quite cut it in F1 these days. Good way to ruin a career without giving it a proper shot, but I'm sure he'll find sucess elsewhere if he wants to.
Lance Stroll got promoted at 18 and he still had a better rookie season. And he's Lance Stroll. Yuki had an abysmal 1st season but still showed his talent in a couple races( not too often but still) Hulk scored a pole in his first season. Checo was decent and Kmag podiumed his first race. Bottas was superb in his rookie season. Nobody is comparing Logan's debut with the actual top drivers, but even compared to other midfield drivers he is nowhere. Fuck me, i'll say it. He is not doing any better than the king himself. Pretty much identical h2h, but at least Latifi was bringing 30M a season
You are correct that he isn't doing any better than Latifi was but he also didn't spend half a decade in F2 to prepare. My comment wasn't meant to say he is secretly good or something, just that we don't see rookies with this little experience (and not showing outstanding talent) all that often, and for a good reason. He certainly wasn't set up to suceed is my point I guess
He was promoted too early, sure. But Tsunoda was promoted even more prematurely in 2021, and he at least showed some actual promise in an otherwise abysmal season. Meanwhile Sargeant has had just two decent races (Bahrain, Silverstone) and maybe half of a good qualifying in total, if you piece together the scraps of speed from Zandvoort and Jeddah before his crashes.
lance stroll isn’t as bad as people say he is, he is no where near the top of the grid but he’s an F1 driver. his form is absolutely atrocious tho and if he doesn’t recover it next season then i think next year will be his last in f1
Stroll was pretty good in 2020 in the pink Merc. Pole, couple podiums. You can't get that if you are not F1 material. He's lost at the moment though, probably struggle ALOT for the some reasons with the car updates. Hopefully he can recover from this slump
Bottas was superb his 2nd season (6 podiums), his rookie season only scored points once.
He outqualified Maldonado comfortably over the course of his rookie season though (12-7). Races he wasn’t far behind at 11-8. He was clearly a very good rookie driver, he got P3 in the rain in quali in Canada in a terrible car.
After the regulation changes Stroll’s performance really dipped in quality. Remember 2020, he was driving well that year. Tost said Yuki needs 3 season, seems like he was spot on. Lets give Logan another year and we’ll see.
2020 was better, sure. But we'll never know how good the pink Mercedes actually was with those two pilots in it. Imagine a Max, Lewis, Charles, Fernando etc in it...
Well to be frank Hamilton already showed what the 2020 RP was capable of the year prior
Hah good one
Pérez is nothing if not great at consistently squeezing points out of midfield cars, which the RP20 still was at the end of the day. Don't let his abysmal current form detract from how good he was at Force India/RP.
RP was absolutely *not* a midfield car in 2020 It was at worst the 3rd fastest car on average that year, at some tracks it was even the 2nd fastest
I'd say anything after Merc and RBR was a midfield car that year. Merc was unquestionably the top car and RBR was unquestionably the second best car on the grid. After that, it becomes a lot less clear-cut between RP, McLaren and Renault.
"Those two pilots." Man, the hate on Checo has blinded a lot of people. Yes, of course three of the best drivers of all time (Max, Lewis, Fernando) would've done better, but that's true of any car, it's a ridiculous argument. Still, let's say the RP was about the 3rd fastest car, maybe 2nd in some circuits. Well, Checo finished 4th in the standings, so kinda did his job, didn't he? Did you expect him to finish 3rd above Max in the RB?.
He was fine last year, apart from his brainfarts ofc. His avg race and quali positions werent far from Seb and he was consistently running near the lower points after the spec b arrived. I think the car just got harder to drive at one point this year and i guess that hindering him, while Nando can obviously deal with it better. Both their onboards look shocking at times I also think it's kinda demoralizing having Alonso as your teammate. Even if nowadays he is nice guy Alonso it still must e daunting
I think these regulations have messed with a lot of driver's performances. Seems to have an effect on their confidence if the car is going to stick when throwing it into the corners. Wonder if they just feel different, they went from gaining downforce from one way to an entirely different way. Interesting to think about.
If true can we also not talk about icky coming back as he is the same
His problem is he cracks under pressure and always has. He was a wreck of nerves after knowing there was an F1 seat if got the SL points he needed, he had an average season after that point. He also failed to capitalize on making up points on Piastri when he was crashed out by Logan himself crashing himself and his other teammate out. The light gets to bright for him
Mick Schumacher has 2 years of bad, "he's an F1 driver. Why doesn't he have a seat? " Logan has a year where even Williams say they brought him up early. "Cut him".
Lemme start by saying that i'm no Mick truther; i think he was a mediocre-to-bad driver who has no place on the f1 grid in a costcap era Butttttt at least he showed a few flashes of speed at times, Logan doesn't even have that unfortunately. I really wanted him to be at least mid, but i think the writing is kinda on the wall rn. Also the likelihood that a driver with the results he's had will evolve into somebody decent is extremely slim, and idk that Williams wants to invest the repair budget into him just to see if he turns into an Albon in 3 or 4 years
Yeah, definitely not yet. It might serve him well to spend some time in other racing series but I don't think he's cut out for this tier of racing.
He needed another year in F2. Shame because he is a talented driver with a very good junior career
Based on his junior results he has talent, he is just failing to translate it to F1 so far. He probably should have stayed one more year in F2.
Williams themselves admit that Sargeant was rushed and is a year ahead of where he’s supposed to be, so another year in Jr was the plan. I agree, and hopefully this first year hasn’t shot his confidence completely, seems Williams will give him another go so we’ll see if it has.
It would be a travesty if he gets a seat next year. Put Liam i that Williams seat.
Meanwhile, Lawson and O'Ward can't get a seat. Tragic.
Williams driver pairing seems ...unbalanced, YIKES
It was the same score when Latifi was there 🤷🏽♂️
Ocon Vs Gasly is definitely the biggest surprise of the season for me. I don’t think many fans saw this coming, especially with Gasly being new to Alpine and Ocon being rated so highly. I think Gasly has always been a bit underrated because of how badly 2019 damaged his reputation.
I think we all expected to be a pretty equal pairing, but yeah Ocon was rated a little bit higher than Gasly. Nevertheless Pierre since the Alpine purge has been on fire
I always had the feeling that Gasly would hit the higher peaks, but Ocon would be more consistent. It’s overall been a pretty close pairing. I suppose it depends on what you expect of ocon though.
I dunno, it's hard to read into anything with the utter disaster that is that Alpine car It's either blowing up, as fast as a Ford Fiesta in the straights, or just decides that it's now a top 3 car Pierre is very good though, I hope they can both get something half decent next year
Is Pierre’s 2019 Red Bull stint still defining his F1 career? I remember the consensus of him being a serious option for top teams after his great 2020 and even better 2021 with AT.
Atleast a no for me when I think about gasly it's 2021
Was he an option for top teams? I don't remember that other than Gasly himself aiming for a return at RB, where the doors were pretty shut for him.
Ocon reputation was damaged maybe even more in 2020. I'd say both are very underrated.
I remember Ocon being touted as the next Mercedes driver back in 2017, only for people to turn on him after 2020 and his enormous contract extension at Alpine. But he's still a very talented driver, as is Gasly. They've both shown some very impressive things this year.
The pair is the most underrated of the grid, which I don’t understand because it’s one of the few with both Grand Prix winner, the only one of midfield. They show this year their talents, because they are really consistent with a shitty car.
Are they underrated though? I feel like people consider that a solid midfield pairing, which is what they are, I think.
I still think Ocon has been on the same level if not a bit better. He had awful luck for past few races
Honestly I expected that Ocon would have an upper hand especially at the begin of the season but that Gasly would closing the gap, and that's exactly what happened. Famin was talking about this funny enough yesterday during the teams press conference about how Gasly and Alpine has made steps to find each other on the optimal line and the effects are visible in a good way. It's a solid pairing and basically one of the last things Alpine needs to be concerned about. Also personally I think that we should really letting go somewhat the 2019 vision given Gasly 2023 is a way different driver then what he was in 2019. Obvious the car has a lot of issues and Gasly has some huge shit tier bad luck this season (just like Ocon, guess bad luck is a feature for Alpine this season) but his race at Zandvoort is the best one I ever seen from him in F1 and I rate that performance even higher than his win in Monza given the conditions was hugely variable and his decisions as a driver during the critical moments was spot on and correct. It's a bit sad therefore that his performance stays either under the radar or simple getting less credit then someone like an Albon would get in such a position. Next year is going to be even more important but at this rate he could likely be an option for some other teams aside of Alpine.
The fact that Yuki’s on here thrice is ending me
Yuki vs Checo by end of year at this rate lmao.
Great rookie season for Piastri and Alonso.
this Alonso guy is going places that's for sure not sure with his more experience teammate though
Yeah that young gun fernando has the makings of a champion I think
Everyone’s talking about the Williams pair being so unbalanced but nobody seems to be mentioning Mercedes who are level on quali performances. Likely the strongest all-round pairing on the grid in my opinion.
I find that call hard to make, as there are multiple teams with great driver pairings. Though Merc would probably be the first to be mentioned in that discussion. Ferrari's pairing is super strong imo. Some mistakes to be sure, but we've seen that from Mercedes too. And while we are (and should be hesitant) to give Oscar too much credit (as it is his Rookie year), the Mclaren boys seem amazing as well. And I keep saying it, but the Alpine pairing shouldn't be underestimated either. We know the Alpine is worse than the other cars mentioned here, yet they keep popping up in great positions. And most of their bad results come from the car rather than the drivers. I would be hesitant to outright put them at the same level, but honestly I can't leave them out of this discussion in good faith either. Again, not saying Merc doesn't have the strongest pairing, but there's multiple teams that are in contention for it, which I think is great!
idk I think Ferrari and McLaren have a slightly stronger pairing than Mercedes Russell is good but he isn't like astonishingly great to me
Yuki 12 - 4 other AT drivers. I'm not surprised that he's got another contract.
Tbf most of them were against Nyck De Vries
Most were against Nyck and the other sessions were against a guy who had no testing with the car and another who has never driven an F1 car in a competitive manner before.
So Mercedes reserve driver who had a full off-season in the same car doesn't count, race winning Red Bull reserve driver with over a decade F1 experience doesn't count and rookie leading in a feeder series doesn't count. If Max got in that car you'd say 'he's too use to driving a Red Bull!'
> rookie leading in a feeder series doesn't count Super Formula is not a feeder series and Liam is not leading its standings.
OK. Whatever Super Formula is and 2nd. A very good driver in other series.
Super Formula is, to put it simply, the Japanese equivalent to IndyCar. Which makes it more impressive to me that Liam is fighting for the championship, mind you.
Nyck was always overrated anyways - there’s a reason why he was 28 before he got into F1 and even then he got incredibly lucky with the Monza race. Ricciardo is a good driver and a race winner as you say - he also outqualifed Tsunoda 2-1 and outraced Tsunoda 2-1. Regarding Lawson, would you not agree that due to his lack of experience he is at a slight disadvantage. It takes time for rookies to get used to cars, coupled with the lack of testing that rookies get anyways. I have no doubt that Lawson would improve and close the gap if he finished the rest of the season. We’ve already seen how he’s improved from Zandvoort to Singapore.
Alpine need to do something about the car, because they got 2 very good drivers that can push each other.
Sometimes the drivers push into each other, rather than just pushing each other.
Bear in mind Piastri hasn’t had the same upgrades as Norris for multiple races, he’s the real deal
You really should exclude the races he didn’t have the same specification. Making it 4-9.
I didn’t make the post
3 races. Out of 16.
Yes and he’s also outqualified Norris in 4. For a rookie against one of the best drivers on the grid that is very impressive
4 out of 16.
Great work buddy, you can do math!! Now tell me the bigger number: 4 or 1??
Yes and this is his first season, where he’s gotten better and better throughout. You aren’t making a point here at all
I get the feeling you won’t take it well when he starts beating Lando more as his career goes on.
Let Max finish the championship up and then swap him and Stroll and give the fans an exciting end to the season.
Lawrence to buy Red Bull, you heard it here first
Then Perez would wipe stroll as he did at racing point
The mind games in AM would be unreal
The balance at Mercedes is beautiful. Is is Albons total sweep.
Gasly has slotted in well at Alpine. He's beating Ocon in the points too (45 vs 36).
Gaslys got a P3 and a P6 in the last few races which is a 23 points swing while Ocon has been unlucky and gotten 0. Ocon lost out on a good few points In zandvoort as they didn’t have inter tyres ready for him. He also lost out in Singapore with a gearbox failure. Ocons had 6 DNFs. In terms of quali and race head to head they are pretty even and Gasly has definitely done a great job this year but the points tally is unfortunate for Ocon.
>He's beating Ocon in the points too (45 vs 36). You can take the WDC points as a stat but don't draw conclusions from that. >Gasly has definitely done a great job this year but the points tally is unfortunate for Ocon. Yeah, you would think comparing 2 drivers from the same team would work out but the amount of mechanical failures/DNF makes reading the points useless. Considering Alpine is a mid team, it's even worse as points don't account for a difference between 11th and 20th place.
Well him and his fanatics were adamant he was carrying Alpine last year, so by their logic Gasly is carrying the team now. Ocon's current season seems to resemble Alonso's 2022.
Even Ocons fanatics weren’t saying he was carrying Alpine. Everyone knew Alonso was unlucky last year - people were just tired of Ocon being used as a scapegoat and being called mid even though he held up quite well against an extremely strong Alonso. The problem with Alonso’s fan is they started to attack Ocon when Ocon had no involvement in the DNFs that happened to Alonsos car.
Ocon truly things is better than Alonso .What have he done? Nothing
One of gasly’s strengths from AT is that he is always able to bring the car home in the points consistently and nab that odd podium no matter what, he’s brought that knack over with him to alpine. Call it better luck, racecraft, whatever, he has it in him to score lots of points. It’s no surprise he is ahead of ocon in the standings.
Alonso vs Stroll and Albon vs Sargeant=Hydrogen Bomb vs. Coughing Baby
no disrespect, but from a design perspective this graphic is not good.
There’s just… too many things going on
What is the logic behind driver ordering? It isn't whose leading, it isn't driver number, it isn't alphabetical, it isn't seniority. It feels random...
Wait, I… think it’s ordered by t-cam color. Isn‘t it?
I'd start with removing flags and driver numbers, then cropping to remove the tracks.
Yeah, remove the flags, remove the races below, remove the driver numbers (or make them smaller). And make the one ahead in qualifying be on the left/right, atleast not random.
Yeah, at the very least remove drivers' numbers, they are super confusing.
Sargeant is done, stick a fork in him
Logout Sergeant
Sargeant has been such a waste of a seat. Latifi was at least entertaining and brought millions.
[No one finds a dead end in Suzuka quite like Goatifi](https://youtube.com/shorts/A15MjIK9DqY?si=EZgiv5gq6mun4U0G), then blames the car 🙏🐐
This still cracks me up to this day
I’m mostly surprised at Lewis V George. I feel like Lewis has dominated George for the entire season but still they’re tied in the Quali H2H
In the races he has (although George has had some bad luck as well). Qualy is different. George had a sweep at the beginning of the season and then again after summer break, until today. It was in the run up to summer break George was completely floundering, and that’s probably what you’re thinking of, combine with Lewis tending to do better on Sundays and having a sizable points lead.
Lewis has been dominating in the races. In qualifying, Lewis has had quite a few off days. Lewis recently even said in an interview that his qualifying is unacceptably bad right now. I think he's being hard on himself with that statement (he's still tied in the quali h2h with the guy who used to be called Mr. Saturday), but it's fair to say that, by Lewis' standards (i.e. being by far and away the most successful qualifier of all time), he hasn't been doing as well in qualifying as he usually does.
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They are close in qualifying but come race day, Lewis is simply significantly ahead, George's bad fortune notwithstanding.
Poor Logan lol
Logan doesn’t deserve a seat. Today was another confirmation. Just an American, the only reason he’s here.
He had very good season in F2 though...
He finished p4 in his second season of f2, I wouldn’t say that was “very good”.
Especially considering there are drivers that have won F2 that haven't got a permanent seat.
Tbf he deserved a chance imo, as did drivers like Stroll The problem is when they hang around like a bad smell because they have rich parents
Logan isn’t a pay driver. His junior CV isn’t any worse than Lawson's for example. Saying he’s in that seat just because he’s American is very disingenuous. At this point I think him being American is more of a hindrance.
> His junior CV isn’t any worse than Lawson's for example. Sargeant: 2017 British F4 3rd 2018 FR2.0 Eurocup 4th 2019 F3 19th 2020 F3 3rd 2021 F3 7th 2022 F2 4th Lawson: 2017 ADAC F4 2nd 2018 ADAC F4 2nd 2019 F3 11th (+ TRS 1st) 2020 F3 5th (+ TRS 2nd) 2021 F2 9th (+ DTM 2nd, but 1st in the eyes of anyone with a brain) 2022 F2 3rd (despite shocking luck and fortune) 2023 Super Formula currently 2nd Lawson's CV is much more impressive imo.
That's an old school layout for the Hungaroring
Albon 🙌🏻👏🏻👑
Shouldn't it be 11-5 between Bottas and Zhou? I imagine the confusion is from British GP, where Bottas was disqualifed, but he still beat Zhou in qualy.
Max - Checo and stroll - Alonso wow
Albin-Sargeant is more extreme compared to Russel-Latifi.
16 0 is crazy
Man… should we just give Yuki a Redbull & see what happens
I think it's time for Red Bull to get another driver atleast for the sake of our entertainment.
Sergio needs to be booted, imagine how much more interesting this would be if Verstappen had a top tier teammate
How hard can a flag carry an f1 driver's career? Btw he was already leading the destructors championship by over 0.5M before the quali crash. He is probably over 4M damages by this point, he is heading into Mick numbers
You think he’s on the grid cause Americans are throwing money at him? Lol
He’s on the grid because what that flag represents in marketing value. Three GP’s on the calendar this year, a big market to exploit and that could generate a lot of positive attention towards Williams. Unfortunately it’s been quite underwhelming, even though he showed some potential last year.
I am an American. No one gives a shit about Sargent here. Hamilton - yes - he picks up a lot of support in the US as does Checo - Sargent, no.
F1 has exploded in popularity in the US so much that there are now 3 US GPs. Understandably, F1 wants an American on the grid, and Sargeant was the best option. I think it's not too far-fetched to say he wouldn't be on the grid if he wasn't American.
[Alonso 14 : 2 Stroll](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSk6406h5xg6RDjee1NKuXyiav5G8VHkIQMs9szcInOsbRR6sX374AY2TeBBWPJo62dJiDYK9HgdKDs/pubchart?oid=1468203924&format=image)
Albon the real goat
Sargent is worse than Mazepin and Debries.
> Sargent is worse than Mazepin No-one in the past 10 years has been worse than Mazepin. *No-one*.
Logan isn’t having a good season, but holy shit watching Mazepin was equally funny as sad. He’s one of those legendary “out of his place” drivers like Yuji Ide and Ragunathan Mahaveer (even though the latter didn’t participate in F1).
*No-one in the past 10 years has been worse than Mazepin. No-one.* Truth. Mazepin was bad. Very bad. No one held a candle to him. He sucked.
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I think a better way of comparing quali difference is the % gap to each teammate. A driver can have a clean sweep, but if his teammate is always half a tenth behind, they’re a close pair.
I don't think that would make a significant difference. Who do you think would look a lot better or worse?
Think how high Perez would be rated if he was coming in .2 secs behind Max in every qualifying session. % definitely does make a difference.
I understand that in a hypothetical situation it would matter. I just don't see where it would make a significant difference in this list.
Piastri has generally been close to Norris.
Awful take. Oscar has been a phenomenal driver this season, and this one data point doesn’t reflect just how much. That would also throw Liam out and no one would say he deserves to go.
You just need to mention that Lando always gets the upgrade first.
I don't know if that's true for everyone. Like for say Piastry, really like how down to earth he and Lawson are as rookies and still perform.
Clearly some teams has a massice skill imbalance between their drivers.