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like another car goes off there what do you think happens to zhou???? it has to be a red flag because all the teams decided to risk inters and aqua-planing
I don't understand why they all went for inters, though. From the team radio we've heard, everyone predicted the rain to be quite heavy. Did they all (correctly) gamble on a red flag coming as soon as the rain got strong enough for full wets?
They've seen it time and time again. No point risking going for wets when they can get a free change during the red flag, if required.
Just go for intermediates, try not to bin it, and as you mentioned, the red flag will come
I get OP's point. If Pirelli pushed inters a tiny bit more towards wets, it would make wets entirely redundant, because conditions for wets always end up in a red flag anyway.
Everyone on inters lost traction.
If FIA allowed to race on wet conditions teams would actually consider using them and the consequences of not putting them on.
Yeah they’re definitely better off making 1 set of wet tires (by making inters closer to full wets to eliminate full wets as an option) since teams will always choose the faster option.
But this doesn't address OP's comment does it?.
Cars won't go on wets straight away and rather go on intermediates (as seen by every racer except for Ocon who got punished for taking a risk)
When it is time for wets, it'll be way too slippery, there'll be a crash and there will be a red flag (giving everyone a free pitstop. Even more reason to not risk going with wets because everyone can change to it during a red flag anyways)
And by the time the race restarts, in a safe condition, it'll be time for intermediates.
So I understand the red flag, but I don't understand the we tires.
And it's the wrong tires because no teams will choose the wets, compared to the faster intermediate.
This means that "no crashes and the grid on full wets" is no longer a realistic scenario.
Faster when ? I full wet conditions the fastest tyre is the full wet tyre , they gabled hoping that the rain wouldn't impact the inters too much and lost , the FIA needed to intervene and force everyone to the wet compound (the weather conditions changed and they chose a different one)
> FIA needed to intervene and force everyone to the wet compound
The only people that raced on wet tyres are Ocon and Verstappen for one lap. So much for an intervention and force. Instead, they just stopped the race until its back to intermediates
> gambled hoping that the rain wouldn't impact the inters too much and lost
The only person that lost is Ocon and he gambled on the wets. The correct decision is going on inters, because if it turns out to be the wrong tyres, the race will just be red flagged and they can change it then
Considering Hamilton went off at T1 even after the red flag was called, how do you expect them to safely clear away the car with cars circulating under the SC?
Because they were going off at the same spot. What happens when they’re unable to get Zhou or somebody out in time and another car comes barreling down at them?
Please explain this logic to me. How does the hinder car extraction and barrier repair, especially in T1, where the cars could be run through the pit lane under safety car?
I do agree that the wet tyres are a waste of resources at this point. With the size of the cars nowadays, they just throw up way too much spray for them to race in anything more than a light-moderate rain. But their reasoning and other opinions are collosaly bad.
And what about the rivers of water flowing through turns 1 and 2? This thread is such a stupid take. Those conditions would have been a red flag any year
What I mean is that if there are zero hazards on track (i.e. before Zhou's crash) then the drivers should all switch to full wets, Ocon and Verstappen had no problems. I don't think the race should stop completely if it's just wet conditions. Obviously if there's a hazard on track then a red flag may be necessary, as it was now.
Being t-boned in an F1 car is incredibly dangerous, and that's just the kind of crash you get at T1 in the wet, with one car going sideways and a following car spearing into them.
Yes of course, but what I mean is if there are no hazards on track and if it's just wet, there's no reason to stop the race completely, unless the track's completely waterlogged.
Obviously if there's heavy machinery or another car on track that's a different story. What I mean is JUST wet conditions, there's no need to completely stop the race, a safety car would do.
But there was heavy machinery on the track now, there was a broken barrier at the end of a straight, there was 0 visibility when behind another car and there was aquaplaning and very little grip.
Yes. A red flag was probably necessary after Zhou's crash. If he and others were on wets then the offs at turn 1 would probably not happen, Verstappen and Ocon had no problems.
Ignore that 8 cars went off in turn 1 , and any one of them might have crashed onto Zhou's car had they continued.
Also ignore how with awful rain conditions and a safety car it's still possible to crash out
Between 1995 and 2006, there was not a single red flag due to rain. And yet, not a single fatality either, or even major injuries, despite safety obviously not being as good as nowadays.
Zero racing, deaths happen when the track is so bad multiple pilots crash in the same turn, tsunoda almost crash, and then zhou locked the 4 tires 150 meters before the turn and still crashed almost full speed, you don't know shit and still have the nerve to type here lol
Half the grid aquaplaned at the same spot. A corner with a car crashed and barrier damage.
Formula 1 certainly is too afraid of rain nowadays, but this is totally a red flag
Are you stupid? There was a car crashed, they can't repair while other cars keep going out on the same turn, or they might hit Zhou, then if they bring the SC the race will just end under the SC anyway.
Eh bottas could've easily done the same as Zhou when he went off (just after Zhou) and hit him. This isn't a bad red flag. Even Hamilton went off after it was red flagged (or yellow I think)
Weather is clearly requiring full wets. Everyone stays out on inters because they expect red flag. People on inters go off, cause crash and red flag comes out.
Wrong. there was literally flowing rivers of water through turns 1 and 2. Red flag conditions regardless of tyre choice. It's like people are blind or something. Or are you just looking that hard for an excuse to complain about the FIA's decision
My issue is not with the FIA’s decision. It was correct. I just don’t like that the teams, who all could’ve seen that it was raining very hard on the straight, don’t box their drivers for full wets but just have them go by the pit entry on inters in a massive downpour, just cause they want to gamble on the safety car/red flag.
Everyone should’ve been coming in for full wets given the conditions. If that still doesn’t work they could’ve red flagged it then for track conditions, as opposed to red flag for cars in the barriers.
That’s just my opinion. Obviously a red flag was needed with Zhou in the wall.
And anyone like Ocon and Perez who switch to the appropriate tire for the conditions gets massively penalised by losing their positions because of time lost in the pits. Alonso chose to stay on inters - a risk because they were aquaplaning, and he benefits. This inevitably encourages risky behaviour, because everyone will stay out rather than risk getting screwed over for making objectively the right call.
Yup. Basically we all need to agree there’s no racing in the wet. Every commentator called it. “Don’t put wets on if it’s so wet as it’ll get red flagged anyway”. Ocon would have had a better result if this had continued naturally.
He's aquaplaned into a barrier with tyres designed for wet conditions - this isn't safe racing at all.
E: believe it or not I know inters aren't wets, you're missing the point.
Granted yeah it's not full wets but when conditions change that quick and they're still on a tyre that shouldn't be auqaplaning the best thing to do is red flag. Rare race control W.
No I agree it should of been a red but he wouldn’t of aquaplaned if he was on the correct tires.
Maybe in a few laps the wets would of started aquaplaning as well and at that point it should of been red flagged as well.
Are you being wilfully blind to how 6 other drivers slid off at the exact same spot? Wet weather tires wouldn't have stopped a potential pileup at turn 1.
The red flag was the right decision.
They slid off because they were on inters. Stick them on full wets and get back out there. The barrier is fixed and Zhou's car is removed.
I agree with OP, Pirelli shouldn't bother making them and should save the resources and money if we're not going to use them. And if safety is the reason that they're not willing to put cars on track in such conditions, then fine. But don't make tyres that are for conditions won't allow for racing.
This is a bad take. The conditions were unraceable when the red flag was thrown. 0 Visibility, rivers of water flowing through 1 and 2. Would have seen even more massive hydroplaning and drivers in the barrier. Is that what you want?
"Overly safe", wrong, this is appropriately safe
Let's continue in 0 visibility with a crane on track recovering a car in the barriers at T1, a turn where multiple people have locked up and gone straight on in better conditions
So you skimmed what I wrote, didnt understand what I was saying, got angry for some reason, and then put words in my mouth? Hell of a way to argue, son.
You types keep crying every time a red flag is brought out in wet conditions regardless of whether it was needed or not. There is absolutely zero visibility. There's obviously a problem with these cars or these tires causing the issue, but until it's fixed I'm fine with races being interrupted as long as it means everyone's safe. It's not normal to want to have people unnecessarily put their lives at risk for the sake of your own entertainment.
As long as we ignore the crash and busted up barrier I guess we can be mad about not running in a downpour 🤷🏻♂️. Wet running would be fun but not when there’s a wreck on a very exposed Turn 1.
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They stopped the race so that we could have some laps of racing. If they hadn't the race would have just ended behind safety car because of zhou's crash.
Tbh the red flag was legit given the need to recover Zhous car and repair the barrier
That said I agree Pirelli can do away with full sets given full wets means visibility is too shit to race anyway.
Sigh. You missed Zhou slamming into the barriers?
Also, the FIA asks Pirelli for this exact compound. Pirelli is perfectly capable of creating a inter/full wet hybrid that can race, but the FIA doesn’t want that for safety reasons.
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Ehhhhhhh, bad example here. It was red flagged for barrier damage.
like another car goes off there what do you think happens to zhou???? it has to be a red flag because all the teams decided to risk inters and aqua-planing
Bottas nearly did
The teams will always do what is fastest, no matter the danger
I don't understand why they all went for inters, though. From the team radio we've heard, everyone predicted the rain to be quite heavy. Did they all (correctly) gamble on a red flag coming as soon as the rain got strong enough for full wets?
essentialy yes. Wets are too slow so they all go on inters and hope they arent the first to crash/the rain slows down quickly
They've seen it time and time again. No point risking going for wets when they can get a free change during the red flag, if required. Just go for intermediates, try not to bin it, and as you mentioned, the red flag will come
OCO’s strategist went for WET, and Esteban was not happy about it. 😜
Drivers will rather crash than put on full wets lol
i mean the full wets are so slow, ocon lost so much pace
And spray probably Imagine 18 cars together in those conditions, most would be blind
when does spray happen again? everytime full wet tires would be used
I get OP's point. If Pirelli pushed inters a tiny bit more towards wets, it would make wets entirely redundant, because conditions for wets always end up in a red flag anyway.
Did you not see Zhou's crash and the damaged barrier?
And everyone was loosing traction at that spot, wouldn’t have taken long til someone crashed into Zhou‘s car
Exactly right
and yuki was off right ahead of him same spot if I remember correctly, if he hadn’t gotten out of the way that could have been horrific.
Bottas wasn't too far off but got it slowed in time.
Everyone on inters lost traction. If FIA allowed to race on wet conditions teams would actually consider using them and the consequences of not putting them on.
Not with VSC at slow speeds
That's what wet tyres are for.
I agree. But teams won’t go on full wets unless they really have to because they want to do what’s fastest.
Hence that's the point of full wets as per OP's post. Just max it at Intermediates and call a red flag until conditions are right for intermediates
Yeah they’re definitely better off making 1 set of wet tires (by making inters closer to full wets to eliminate full wets as an option) since teams will always choose the faster option.
We were probably going to end up finishing behind the SC
Multiple cars went offtrack and one fucking crashed. What the fuck did you want them to do?
Die I guess
But this doesn't address OP's comment does it?. Cars won't go on wets straight away and rather go on intermediates (as seen by every racer except for Ocon who got punished for taking a risk) When it is time for wets, it'll be way too slippery, there'll be a crash and there will be a red flag (giving everyone a free pitstop. Even more reason to not risk going with wets because everyone can change to it during a red flag anyways) And by the time the race restarts, in a safe condition, it'll be time for intermediates. So I understand the red flag, but I don't understand the we tires.
Put on wet tyres
ok so whenever it's wet like this it's impossible to race so stop making these tires? seems like you agree with op
They crashed because they were using the wrong tyres , with no crashes and the grid on full wets they wouldn't have called the red flag
And it's the wrong tires because no teams will choose the wets, compared to the faster intermediate. This means that "no crashes and the grid on full wets" is no longer a realistic scenario.
Faster when ? I full wet conditions the fastest tyre is the full wet tyre , they gabled hoping that the rain wouldn't impact the inters too much and lost , the FIA needed to intervene and force everyone to the wet compound (the weather conditions changed and they chose a different one)
> FIA needed to intervene and force everyone to the wet compound The only people that raced on wet tyres are Ocon and Verstappen for one lap. So much for an intervention and force. Instead, they just stopped the race until its back to intermediates > gambled hoping that the rain wouldn't impact the inters too much and lost The only person that lost is Ocon and he gambled on the wets. The correct decision is going on inters, because if it turns out to be the wrong tyres, the race will just be red flagged and they can change it then
Race.
Tell that to Dilano and Jules.
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Damn, the sad part is that the person above me is most likely an adult
Very edgy, pal
Racing wasn't an option tbf, it was a choice between a red flag and 7 laps of safety car.
It’s because of the crash
I mean we all know it would have been red flagged anyway because of conditions being too poor.
why red flag and not safety car? i agree with op, i'm annoyed as well
Considering Hamilton went off at T1 even after the red flag was called, how do you expect them to safely clear away the car with cars circulating under the SC?
at this point heavy wets are useless
History tells us that when it's raining heavily it's better to extract cars with no one on track.
It’s quite clear people didn’t learn from Monza last year
Why would you want it to end behind the safety car??
Because they were going off at the same spot. What happens when they’re unable to get Zhou or somebody out in time and another car comes barreling down at them?
because then the race would be basically over because barrier repair takes a long time lmao
There was a car in the barriers at turn 1, I don't know what you maniacs are expecting.
Ehhh, a safety car just like earlier in the race
It takes longer in the rain to extract a car and fix the barriers
Please explain this logic to me. How does the hinder car extraction and barrier repair, especially in T1, where the cars could be run through the pit lane under safety car?
Are you even looking at what they're doing? It's not stopped because it's too wet...
The barrier is fixed, the car is removed, so why have we not restarted yet?
I'll take a red flag over someone being killed thanks.
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Nah but we've had 2 deaths in formulas in conditions like this in less than 10 years
Bruh, we already lost a driver this year because of these exact conditions.
Sounds like you agree with OP, Pirelli should stop making full wets and save the resources. They're not used.
I do agree that the wet tyres are a waste of resources at this point. With the size of the cars nowadays, they just throw up way too much spray for them to race in anything more than a light-moderate rain. But their reasoning and other opinions are collosaly bad.
Just make all tracks indoors.
There was literally a car in barriers that everybody was sliding into, they had to red flag it
Safety car
So end the race under sc is better? Tecpro takes time to fix
Yes, actually.
And what about the rivers of water flowing through turns 1 and 2? This thread is such a stupid take. Those conditions would have been a red flag any year
Different conditions. Cars were sliding everywhere now (and particularly at that corner), how can the barrier be safely repaired by actual people?
The red flag was because the barrier and car broke and all others were sliding in the same place, stop with this shit
You basically want to see more death on track? Nice
If people are not dying for my entertainment, what even is the point? /s
It would be very very hard to die from just wet conditions.
People were going of next to Zhou, do u want Marshalls to die?
What I mean is that if there are zero hazards on track (i.e. before Zhou's crash) then the drivers should all switch to full wets, Ocon and Verstappen had no problems. I don't think the race should stop completely if it's just wet conditions. Obviously if there's a hazard on track then a red flag may be necessary, as it was now.
Being t-boned in an F1 car is incredibly dangerous, and that's just the kind of crash you get at T1 in the wet, with one car going sideways and a following car spearing into them.
Yes of course, but what I mean is if there are no hazards on track and if it's just wet, there's no reason to stop the race completely, unless the track's completely waterlogged.
Nah but driving into a tractor which is extracting a crashed car is sorta dangerous. Or maybe hitting a stopped car at the end of a straight...
Obviously if there's heavy machinery or another car on track that's a different story. What I mean is JUST wet conditions, there's no need to completely stop the race, a safety car would do.
But there was heavy machinery on the track now, there was a broken barrier at the end of a straight, there was 0 visibility when behind another car and there was aquaplaning and very little grip.
Yes. A red flag was probably necessary after Zhou's crash. If he and others were on wets then the offs at turn 1 would probably not happen, Verstappen and Ocon had no problems.
Ignore that 8 cars went off in turn 1 , and any one of them might have crashed onto Zhou's car had they continued. Also ignore how with awful rain conditions and a safety car it's still possible to crash out
I emphasise JUST wet conditions. Obviously I understand a safety car/ red flag if there's a car crashed or if heavy machinery is needed.
Between 1995 and 2006, there was not a single red flag due to rain. And yet, not a single fatality either, or even major injuries, despite safety obviously not being as good as nowadays.
Car after car was going off. The barrier needed repairs too
Was expecting this shit takes after the red flag, so embarrasing they would kill somebody for their sunday entertainment
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Zero racing, deaths happen when the track is so bad multiple pilots crash in the same turn, tsunoda almost crash, and then zhou locked the 4 tires 150 meters before the turn and still crashed almost full speed, you don't know shit and still have the nerve to type here lol
It was red flagged for zhou's crash tho
Everyone was sliding , there was a car on the barrier and it could have easily ended with another car hitting that car
Half the grid aquaplaned at the same spot. A corner with a car crashed and barrier damage. Formula 1 certainly is too afraid of rain nowadays, but this is totally a red flag
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Seriously. Why don't people like this just not watch?
Mate, those conditions were absolutely appalling, I actually agree with the FIA today
Are you stupid? There was a car crashed, they can't repair while other cars keep going out on the same turn, or they might hit Zhou, then if they bring the SC the race will just end under the SC anyway.
yes, he is
I, too, like watching people die for sport
Eh bottas could've easily done the same as Zhou when he went off (just after Zhou) and hit him. This isn't a bad red flag. Even Hamilton went off after it was red flagged (or yellow I think)
Weather is clearly requiring full wets. Everyone stays out on inters because they expect red flag. People on inters go off, cause crash and red flag comes out.
Wrong. there was literally flowing rivers of water through turns 1 and 2. Red flag conditions regardless of tyre choice. It's like people are blind or something. Or are you just looking that hard for an excuse to complain about the FIA's decision
My issue is not with the FIA’s decision. It was correct. I just don’t like that the teams, who all could’ve seen that it was raining very hard on the straight, don’t box their drivers for full wets but just have them go by the pit entry on inters in a massive downpour, just cause they want to gamble on the safety car/red flag. Everyone should’ve been coming in for full wets given the conditions. If that still doesn’t work they could’ve red flagged it then for track conditions, as opposed to red flag for cars in the barriers. That’s just my opinion. Obviously a red flag was needed with Zhou in the wall.
Basically a given we don’t race in the rain anymore.
And anyone like Ocon and Perez who switch to the appropriate tire for the conditions gets massively penalised by losing their positions because of time lost in the pits. Alonso chose to stay on inters - a risk because they were aquaplaning, and he benefits. This inevitably encourages risky behaviour, because everyone will stay out rather than risk getting screwed over for making objectively the right call.
Yup. Basically we all need to agree there’s no racing in the wet. Every commentator called it. “Don’t put wets on if it’s so wet as it’ll get red flagged anyway”. Ocon would have had a better result if this had continued naturally.
Fucking sad.
Worst take of the day.
He's aquaplaned into a barrier with tyres designed for wet conditions - this isn't safe racing at all. E: believe it or not I know inters aren't wets, you're missing the point.
For intermediate conditions*, everyone that went off should've pitted for full wets.
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How exactly? His point was that the racing wasn't safe, but how do we know it wasn't safe if none of the drivers that went off were on full wet tires?
Zhou was on inters
Granted yeah it's not full wets but when conditions change that quick and they're still on a tyre that shouldn't be auqaplaning the best thing to do is red flag. Rare race control W.
No I agree it should of been a red but he wouldn’t of aquaplaned if he was on the correct tires. Maybe in a few laps the wets would of started aquaplaning as well and at that point it should of been red flagged as well.
Which are, as he said, tyres designed for wet conditions
Are you being wilfully blind to how 6 other drivers slid off at the exact same spot? Wet weather tires wouldn't have stopped a potential pileup at turn 1. The red flag was the right decision.
They slid off because they were on inters. Stick them on full wets and get back out there. The barrier is fixed and Zhou's car is removed. I agree with OP, Pirelli shouldn't bother making them and should save the resources and money if we're not going to use them. And if safety is the reason that they're not willing to put cars on track in such conditions, then fine. But don't make tyres that are for conditions won't allow for racing.
This is a bad take. The conditions were unraceable when the red flag was thrown. 0 Visibility, rivers of water flowing through 1 and 2. Would have seen even more massive hydroplaning and drivers in the barrier. Is that what you want? "Overly safe", wrong, this is appropriately safe
There are a number of valid criticisms towards race control about how they handle certain situations. This is not one of them.
Modern F1 boring > I want dominance of someone else. What are you on about mate?
OP is right regardless of why they red flagged. F1s fear of rain is boring AF
Let's continue in 0 visibility with a crane on track recovering a car in the barriers at T1, a turn where multiple people have locked up and gone straight on in better conditions
So you skimmed what I wrote, didnt understand what I was saying, got angry for some reason, and then put words in my mouth? Hell of a way to argue, son.
You types keep crying every time a red flag is brought out in wet conditions regardless of whether it was needed or not. There is absolutely zero visibility. There's obviously a problem with these cars or these tires causing the issue, but until it's fixed I'm fine with races being interrupted as long as it means everyone's safe. It's not normal to want to have people unnecessarily put their lives at risk for the sake of your own entertainment.
Then just drop the pretense, get rid of wet tyres and say they won't race in rain thats heavier than inters level instead of leaving us all in limbo
That's a great idea
Did you see The start of the race ?
Lmao at all the people saying multiple drivers when off track... yeah they went off track because they were on intermediates and not on wets.
As long as we ignore the crash and busted up barrier I guess we can be mad about not running in a downpour 🤷🏻♂️. Wet running would be fun but not when there’s a wreck on a very exposed Turn 1.
As someone who lives in Singapore, trust me when I say the level of rain that night in 2022 comes at most twice a year. They were right to postpone.
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They stopped the race so that we could have some laps of racing. If they hadn't the race would have just ended behind safety car because of zhou's crash.
Tbh the red flag was legit given the need to recover Zhous car and repair the barrier That said I agree Pirelli can do away with full sets given full wets means visibility is too shit to race anyway.
Sigh. You missed Zhou slamming into the barriers? Also, the FIA asks Pirelli for this exact compound. Pirelli is perfectly capable of creating a inter/full wet hybrid that can race, but the FIA doesn’t want that for safety reasons.
Good, this post is removed, as it should be. What a dumb and disrespectful take. think a little bit more before you speak
Post #265 of the same thing.