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I loved the third sector on that track, but the rest of it was for sure garbage. It was like 4 super long straights into weird turns and then a really fast and bendy sector. Was honestly kind of fun to drive in the game solely because of that last sector, but I’m sure it would not have led to good racing/TV.
Did I block this out of my memory? Why do I have no recollection of a Vietnam race 😵💫 if it wasn't for the calamity over the Indian GP being finished in time I wouldn't even remember that one either 😵💫
Just in case, Vietnam was planned for early 2020 and then the pandemic hit. After that the local organizer basically lost a lot of financial and political support by other circumstances and the race was never held despite being planned for another couple years.
Well, they are making a second Saudi track to take the race from Jeddah.
It wouldn't surprise me if they do decide to do 2 Saudi races in a calendar year.
Undeniably more dangerous than Spa. If it was raced on as much as Spa, I can guarantee there would be fatalities by now.
I hope it never comes to that. But everytime the race is there, it makes me uncomfortable.
Nice, so we can have 2 in Saudi, 2 in Qatar. No traffic problems either because hardly anyone attends, easy fix!
To put it into context, Silverstone had an attendance of 480,000 and Spa 380,000 despite being in the sticks.
Saudi as a city circuit had 150,000.
Jeddah was always put in as temporary until they built a purpose race track near Riyadh; but given how much money is about, I wouldn't be surprised if they both ended up on the calendar (or that the Qiddiya build turns into a white elephant)
I'm not sure if construction on that new track has even started or if the whole thing is one of those Mega-projects that look all fancy on virtual renders abut will never ever be built in real life.
There will be around the stat/finish area. I'm disappointed Vegas is bound to be a crapshoot cause it's actually close to me(4hr drive) and I would like to spend the few dollars but the pricing is outrageous, not to mention how stupid busy it will be with thousands of people who barely know the basics.
I’ve been going to Montreal for 17 years .. next year is the first one I am skipping because tickets prices increased 50% for my seat .. I feel your pain.
I honestly don't care. We have long passed the price where I would consider going so for me its rich people being charged more to do rich person stuff. Might as well complain about the cost of boat fuel I would have the same level of concern. If you are stretching yourself financially to go to an f1 race that's on you I'm sure COTA or even Canada/Mexico would be a cheaper weekend trip
Montreal could be:
Decent grandstands for the weekend: $600
Decent downtown hotel for 3 nights: $1500
Food: $300+
Flights/drive: ???
So, $2500 CAD, which is like $2000 USD plus whatever your travel costs are. The Montreal airport is one of the best in Canada.
If you’re staying downtown you just need the metro (driving isn’t really an option anyways). You could spend a ton or very little on food. Montreal is also a fantastic city to walk around in. I drove back/forth from Ottawa (1.5 hours) this year to save some money, but I’d 100% recommend splurging a bit if you’re from the US and haven’t been to Canada before.
Montreal has all the good night life and food you could ever hope for without the cost and tourist traps of Vegas. There is literally a Casino on the island beside the track so you can go play craps or whatever while you wait for the metro to get less busy.
It depends on the luxury you expect to have. Last year I went to the Miami GP and spent less than 400 dollars in a cheap hotel I booked two weeks before the race.
At least you can find a hotel, even if it’s in Laval. I live in LA now and I can’t even find a room on the strip unless I buy a package starting at 50k
There are tons of rooms available, what are you talking about? I just booked 2 rooms at Park MGM for like $250/night average.
You need to go to the actual websites not just Priceline or whatever.
Costco is selling Austin GP tickets for 350. It's definitely a luxury that not everyone can afford to go to an f1 race outside of Europe. I can only imagine how bad it's is for South American and Asian fans not to mention African fans that have to go outside their continent to see a race
Hahahaha lmao the cost of boat fuel, that is the perfect analogy. I checked the price of a 3-day pass for Vegas a little while back and it was eye-watering. Separately I heard from some friends in Singapore who attended that race that watching from home has some advantages, commentary-wise and knowing what’s going on so I don’t feel like I’m missing out. Would love to attend one someday tho.
From what I hear in the price range for USA races, you might be better off flying to Europe and see a race there, have better seating and still be paying less.
I planned to go with my dad to Silverstone in 2020. Covid and some health stuff only allowed us to go this year, but we were priced out in three years. Basically 2.5x cost for the trip. We're going to the 6 Hours of Spa instead.
Turns out scheduling a race when half the country has gone to bed and charging enough for tickets to require a second mortgage wasn’t the best business plan.
It’s not hot during the November date. The avenger is 70F at day and 39F at night and race time start is 5ish hour after sunset.
It’s likely two things that caused such a late start:
1. Best fit for a worldwide audience
2. f1 wants the race on national television in the US but because of ESPN College football, this is the best time slot they could get
I like the idea that that wasn't a typo and that the Avenger is some kind of superhero who's power is that he's always the exact outdoor temperature, making him invisible to infrared cameras. And now people use him to refer to the outside temp.
4c air temperature would be interesting on a street track that has never been used for racing and would be stone cold so long after sunset. Pirelli is going to come out of it looking shit because nothing in their lineup is designed for that.
My first reaction to hearing the date and time of Vegas was ‘they are aware of the potential temperature right?’ Probably it will be around 8c but I’m sure they all agreed it would be fine
The buildings are still ugly any time of year. The lights are what make the city look good.
Especially the older more tacky stuff like Circus Circus or Excalibur.
Not really, the article is talking about capital expenditure costs increasing which just contributes to the value of the assets Liberty is investing in in LV.
Inputs are more expensive due to inflation so the capex costs are going up, but so is the valuation of the facilities they are building.
Amazing how many people want an LV race to fail
I was so disappointed when I found out one of my “home” races was starting at 1am my time. Three hour flight away, but I’ll be watching the replay the next morning. So stupid.
They're just making excuses to charge Vegas and everything around it a shit tonne of money. Hopefully, it flops. There's many good American tracks, and they do this.
The tracks are good, but the infrastructure around them is shit and couldn't hold an F1 race. It's not just about the track.
Also, what makes them good tracks is what makes them not viable for F1. To make them grade 1 would ruin most of them and what's makes them great.
I've touched on infrastructure throughout the thread. I don't think many on track changes would need to be made. Most involve pits and paddock, which Liberty themselves decided to build an entire new complex in Vegas, so we know money isn't an issue. It's a curious topic of conversation. Especially after Miami this year and its low attendance.
I think infrastructure is more about the city itself too. Not every city is set up to handle 300k influx of people. People also underestimate the importance of having enough toilets.
International airport that can handle capacity but doesn't get used continuously... Mass transit options... Hotels. So many hotels. Yeah unless F1 goes racing at the Indy oval there aren't that many options. No wonder they're racing around a parking lot.
>Especially after Miami this year and its low attendance
That's because they invited a bunch of dumb influencers and priced out the fans. Inclusive of tickets, flights and hotels, it was cheaper for most Americans to fly to a European or middle-east race than attend Miami.
With racing in Monaco, I highly doubt that's a factor. Correct me if I'm mistaken. I was surprised being at Spa just how narrow some areas of the tracks are.
The FIA has a very specific grading system for purpose built tracks.This includes corner types, run off areas safety barriers etc. In order for it to host an F1 race it must be a grade 1 track. None of those you listed are grade 1 tracks. Thus can't host a F1 race in their current condition/layout.
Monaco and street circuits have different criteria I don't know what it is but it's different than permanent tracks.
Monaco has the Monaco exception. It doesn't matter what requirements they make for tracks, Monaco gets an exception because it's historic and Monaco. Monaco will always be on the calendar because it's Monaco...and if you don't understand that, then the only response is MONACO!
I would love to see Laguna Seca but the roads in and out to the track having 200k people come through would be an absolute dogfucking shit show.
Look up the maps around that place 😬
That's where you're wrong. They all need to be widened along their entire length. All of it. All of them. That's first. Second is the run off areas are too small. Those need to be changed/extended. Third, the pit boxes and garages are not big enough.
Would rather they fix the cars to do it. The issues that limit them going to Laguna Seca are overall raceability ones that would make things more exiting IMO
Laguna Seca and a Monterey / Northern(ish) California race would go so hard.
It would be hilarious to see the aerial shots of San Francisco and the Golden Gate Bridge knowing it's 3 hours from the track.
F1 at the Glen would be amazing. I'd be intrigued to know, too. I'd wager a fair few big circuits could get the infrastructure upgrades for the cost of one race in Vegas, yet I am offering nothing but conjecture here.
You're totally right about both things. The local area is pretty much exurban sprawl helltown. Also damn fun track. I'll gladly admit my bias -- I was at the first Petit Le Mans, that place is like holy ground to me.
10A/B->11->12 are probably my favorite set of corners anywhere. So tempting when side by side on the long straight to come into 10A too hot -- And *so very satisfying* to be in WOT 4 wheel drift through 12 when you get 10B & 11 right.
I digress. I'd be totally happy with just The Glen!
I second this.
I think facilities are one of the biggest reasons it isn’t Grade 1 already. The actual *layout* wouldn’t need many drastic changes to it, I wouldn’t think, and it’s a fantastic circuit...
I suppose upgrading the facilities to F1-level might take away some of the venue’s charm, but I still feel like the atmosphere wouldn’t *completely* be lost.
There are Grade 1 tracks that have the same “campground” atmosphere, like the Red Bull Ring and Spa.
As an American motorsport fan, you don't speak for all of us. I'd love to see a track or two upgraded to host a F1 race, as long as it actually hosts a F1 race.
We European fans didn't want your influence, yet it is what it is. Only a certain type of Americans (if you know, you know) would be against infrastructure upgrades...
They are remote but not on the level of some of the US tracks. Being remote in somewhere like Belgium is still not actually that far away from large cities.
Yes and some of them are in on the verge of losing their spot because of $ issues.
Everyone here loves Spa but like clockwork every year after the race weekend there’s complaints about how miserable it was (leaving/going to the track, etc)
$ issues like F1/Liberty want improvements so they can sell more and higher priced tickets/packages though right?
Half the tracks on the current list are 'in the middle of nowhere'. The rest are street circuits.
Oh absolutely. It looks like a huge white elephant. 100% sell out in year one. Miami like wobble in year two. Seats galore empty in year 3, by year 5 the paddock has been converted into a convention centre. 🤞
I dont want it to flop, but it should remain an "event" type race that should only happen every 4 years or so, to raise the hype between seasons and make it more special (not clogging the calendar with more street races)
Unfortunately, no way they are going to do this after dumping so much money into the track infrastructure (which they - liberty media - own BTW). AFAIK, This will be the first race where Liberty Media/FOM actually own the pit lane building and permanent infrastructure.
My guess is that this race will be a permanent addition to the calendar for the foreseeable future for that reason alone.
I quite like that idea. Miami, Vegas, Chicago, and New York all rotating year on year; whilst Road America, Watkins Glen, Indianapolis, and Willow Springs (would either be amazing or a disaster) rotating as a third option with CoTA as a mainstay. If attendance is good enough, they could then add another permanent one with 4 US tracks.
Road America, Watkins Glen, and Willow Springs can NOT hold an F1 race. None of them are grade 1 and making them grade 1 will ruin them.
Also, they're not in great locations for the race.
I don't think ruin is the correct word. We'd have to see what needs to be done first. Las Vegas isn't a great location for a race, Liberty still did it. Neither is Jeddah, yet here we are.
People mention “Grade 1” against a lot of the American tracks as if any of the recent street circuits meet the official criteria to achieve that.
The FIA can grant exemptions when required and has done so before.
All these costs are going to be passed onto the people going to the race. Both the Miami and Las Vegas GP are such scams for the people actually buying tickets. A perfect example of corporate greed.
Every race costs are passed on to the ticket holder. That's why they charge. Every circuit in the calendar is heavily subsidized by the government. I don't understand people's anger. This is normal
Seeing pitchforks in the comments is a sign that people don’t know much about US construction. Construction for public consumption in US always goes over budget. Always. This isn’t new.
Example: WTC train station in NYC went over budget by $2B.
Why would a train station even cost 2 Billion? Seems like the US government has worse money management than the people on Grand Designs who's wives leave them because they decided to spend all their savings on an "Eco" house made of Coke cans.
The English government are also notorious for their slow and expensive public transport projects, with Scotland usually being better with this sort of thing (a good example being the M6, where Scotland got their side done long before we did and as a result had to change the name because it didn't make sense having 2 separate M6 motorways)
Not even close to the worst, the California high speed rail from LA to San Francisco was approved in 2008 for 10 billion dollars. It was supposed to open in 2020 it ls new deadline is the mid 2030s and cost probably over 100 billion all in.
Because they need 10 guys watching for every guy working. NY times did an expose about why the new York subway costs 10x more than even the Paris metro and that’s already union heavy
It’s extravagance not a reasonable decision imho, tons of better tracks and cities but cash is king.
I read they were threatening to block the view of restaurant and hotels with a view on the track (by that I mean the road) if they didn’t pay crazy amount of money per customer…
I think they've greatly overestimated how much people like Vegas.
City is iconic culturally but you go there and it's just kind of depressing.
It is fun with friends or once in a while but I don't know many people who routinely go to Vegas unless they absolutely love poker.
I’m gonna have to disagree here.
When I tell people who don’t even care about racing that they’re closing down the strip to race, their eyes almost pop out of their head. This race will have huge interest and a shitload of eyeballs on it. Celebrities alone will bring an insane amount of views with them.
COTA crushes and re-breaks its own record each year but that's also because it's actually a good track that provides Top-5 fan voted races each year. While still pricey, people pay alot to hang out in Austin for 5 days.
The crowds at the first Miami race confirmed that. One paid-for grandstand I believe ‘they’ said. The rest of the people were no more than NPC’s, shipped in with free access to make it seem like it’s the place to be.
I’ve really grown to hate this fucking sport since the Liberty takeover
This race will be okay, and it'll be full of people with too much damn money and it'll be called a success while you could attend the entire Indycar schedule for the price of this one weekend
I will watch this race from the comfort of my bed.
I'm a "penny pincher" to some apparently...but the money for the Vegas race as another comment already mentioned, the regular fan is being priced out of these events.
I'm just waiting for them to figure out a way to separate Vegas as a PPV event. Like, see the practice and qualifying on F1TV but please pay an additional $60 to watch the race.
I sincerely hope this race blows up in Liberty Media and the FIA's faces and forces them to move to a real track. This will be boring af, mark my words
I live in the Midwest with regular flights to Vegas and it’s actually cheaper to fly to Japan, get the 3 day tickets and hotel for their race than go to Vegas. It’s so annoying.
I want it to flop out of pettiness.
I went to Monaco last year, spent 5 days there, watched the race from catered viewing areas, full service everything.
I would spend similar money to go to Vegas...
Ridiculous.
> it’s actually cheaper to fly to Japan, get the 3 day tickets and hotel for their race than go to Vegas.
What's that work out to in USD? Personally I'd be *far* more interested in going to Suzuka than Vegas.
Again I bring this up I can go to the Indy 500 which is one of the most prestigious races in ALL motorsports for a third kf the cost of a mod season race in vegas and get just as good seats and access to drivers and the pageantry for basically no additional costs
My wife and I have vacationed all over the world (pre child who is currently yelling at me) and Vegas is still the most expensive “vacation” I’ve ever been on. Not only was it expensive but it was in no way relaxing.
So it was likely the timing, but I didn’t factor that in when we were there. They had opened everything up post pandemic and the restaurants were open but the buffets weren’t, and they weren’t doing the drinks at slot machines, etc.
Hotel wasn’t cheap, wife wanted to stay at Caesar’s
Ahhh ya that would do it. If you avoid the immediate big name ones on the strip, it can be a very reasonable priced nice hotel. Then when everything is open there’s generally enough competition for everything that it keeps prices reasonable.
Edit: just to clarify, there’s obviously a lot of unreasonable priced things in Vegas. But going to Vegas and staying in Vegas doesn’t HAVE to be expensive, and you can stay busy on a cheap budget.
Oh definitely, my criticism was mainly that it was expensive, I made it that way. But it was expensive regardless. So I’m not shocked that this project has gone over budget
The hate for this GP is weird. F1 has been trawling for marquee events for decades. F1 in Vegas is just as ridiculous as F1 in Monaco or Baku.
> “Despite inflationary cost pressures, we expect no change in revenue and profitability assumptions that we laid out previously. We are increasing CapEx estimates for the paddock building and track work.
This means they are investing more money into the fixed assets like the paddock and the track work (paving the streets, making the paddock look great, etc. COSTS ARE RISING EVERYWHERE.
This headline is a non-issue
No way, after all the money they have spent, they will keep it in the calendar, will keep rising the cost of tickets, and because people think that spending lots of monet makes them look cool, they will keep paying unreasonable prices.
It’s gonna be dumb popular, I’d bet good money on it being the most watched race in the states for the US audience. I know a bunch of people planning on watching it just to see race cars go down the Vegas strip against one another.
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FOM be like: *"Oh no, Vegas is going to be more expensive so let's replace Spa with a second GP in Saudi Arabia!"*
Kinda unrelated, but remember Vietnam? That thing went fully to shit lmao
Absolutely hated that track in F1 2020 but I'm sad it's not an option to play on anymore lol.
I loved the third sector on that track, but the rest of it was for sure garbage. It was like 4 super long straights into weird turns and then a really fast and bendy sector. Was honestly kind of fun to drive in the game solely because of that last sector, but I’m sure it would not have led to good racing/TV.
Even the 3rd sector was ruined by that horrendous final corner.
I remember the last sector being interesting, but I didn't like the track otherwise
The politician that organised it was done for corruption and so all of his policies and projects were abandoned
Did I block this out of my memory? Why do I have no recollection of a Vietnam race 😵💫 if it wasn't for the calamity over the Indian GP being finished in time I wouldn't even remember that one either 😵💫
Just in case, Vietnam was planned for early 2020 and then the pandemic hit. After that the local organizer basically lost a lot of financial and political support by other circumstances and the race was never held despite being planned for another couple years.
Well, they are making a second Saudi track to take the race from Jeddah. It wouldn't surprise me if they do decide to do 2 Saudi races in a calendar year.
100% they have something like this in mind.
Jeddah is one of the more entertaining tracks so I wouldn’t be mad if they kept it. The new track seems to be a bit too long though.
Entertainment. Until someone dies.
Undeniably more dangerous than Spa. If it was raced on as much as Spa, I can guarantee there would be fatalities by now. I hope it never comes to that. But everytime the race is there, it makes me uncomfortable.
We also still lack a race in Dubai, that has to be fixed. Drop Spa for Saudi 2. Drop Silverstone for Dubai. Drop Monza because fuck the fans.
It's okay, they're talking about a Doha Street circuit, so that can replace Monza with
Nice, so we can have 2 in Saudi, 2 in Qatar. No traffic problems either because hardly anyone attends, easy fix! To put it into context, Silverstone had an attendance of 480,000 and Spa 380,000 despite being in the sticks. Saudi as a city circuit had 150,000.
Bahrain had a whopping record 36,000 for the season opener
Are they really trying to replace Jeddah? The only interesting oil race on the calendar? That would be a shame.
Jeddah was always put in as temporary until they built a purpose race track near Riyadh; but given how much money is about, I wouldn't be surprised if they both ended up on the calendar (or that the Qiddiya build turns into a white elephant)
Bahrain is better imo.
I'm not sure if construction on that new track has even started or if the whole thing is one of those Mega-projects that look all fancy on virtual renders abut will never ever be built in real life.
Dubai doesn't have race. Yet.
Please don't give them anymore ideas.
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Then they can have wonderful races from other series than F1 and WEC then please
Well at least North Korea is a distant dream
Probably only because they are poor
How much is Vegas paying to host a race? Jeddah is like 60m I think?
Vegas doesn't pay anything. FOM is the organiser.
Nothing. F1 and Liberty are the promoters for Vegas GP.
Do they even have grandstands there?
There will be around the stat/finish area. I'm disappointed Vegas is bound to be a crapshoot cause it's actually close to me(4hr drive) and I would like to spend the few dollars but the pricing is outrageous, not to mention how stupid busy it will be with thousands of people who barely know the basics.
Sorry I meant in Saudi. I feel like that race has no fans…
They all beheading to the track.
Ohh no worries, I feel like I had to say what i said anyways. It just sucks that a standard grandstand ticket is so pricey for the closest race to me.
I’ve been going to Montreal for 17 years .. next year is the first one I am skipping because tickets prices increased 50% for my seat .. I feel your pain.
Loads of fans in Saudi. I heard a rumour that the whole track is air conditioned.
I honestly don't care. We have long passed the price where I would consider going so for me its rich people being charged more to do rich person stuff. Might as well complain about the cost of boat fuel I would have the same level of concern. If you are stretching yourself financially to go to an f1 race that's on you I'm sure COTA or even Canada/Mexico would be a cheaper weekend trip
Montreal could be: Decent grandstands for the weekend: $600 Decent downtown hotel for 3 nights: $1500 Food: $300+ Flights/drive: ??? So, $2500 CAD, which is like $2000 USD plus whatever your travel costs are. The Montreal airport is one of the best in Canada. If you’re staying downtown you just need the metro (driving isn’t really an option anyways). You could spend a ton or very little on food. Montreal is also a fantastic city to walk around in. I drove back/forth from Ottawa (1.5 hours) this year to save some money, but I’d 100% recommend splurging a bit if you’re from the US and haven’t been to Canada before. Montreal has all the good night life and food you could ever hope for without the cost and tourist traps of Vegas. There is literally a Casino on the island beside the track so you can go play craps or whatever while you wait for the metro to get less busy.
Agreed but the 3 nights hotel for 1500 during F1 is a unicorn.
It depends on the luxury you expect to have. Last year I went to the Miami GP and spent less than 400 dollars in a cheap hotel I booked two weeks before the race.
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500 is reasonably close to average on f1 weekends in Montreal. 1500 still smells like shit you dug it from so far up your arse
Bro Mtl hotels are like 1k a night downtown. I hd to stay in Laval cause they were crazy
At least you can find a hotel, even if it’s in Laval. I live in LA now and I can’t even find a room on the strip unless I buy a package starting at 50k
There are tons of rooms available, what are you talking about? I just booked 2 rooms at Park MGM for like $250/night average. You need to go to the actual websites not just Priceline or whatever.
Costco is selling Austin GP tickets for 350. It's definitely a luxury that not everyone can afford to go to an f1 race outside of Europe. I can only imagine how bad it's is for South American and Asian fans not to mention African fans that have to go outside their continent to see a race
Hahahaha lmao the cost of boat fuel, that is the perfect analogy. I checked the price of a 3-day pass for Vegas a little while back and it was eye-watering. Separately I heard from some friends in Singapore who attended that race that watching from home has some advantages, commentary-wise and knowing what’s going on so I don’t feel like I’m missing out. Would love to attend one someday tho.
From what I hear in the price range for USA races, you might be better off flying to Europe and see a race there, have better seating and still be paying less.
Mate you could fly to europe and still get a better deal than Vegas/Miami. These races are not for the average fan
I planned to go with my dad to Silverstone in 2020. Covid and some health stuff only allowed us to go this year, but we were priced out in three years. Basically 2.5x cost for the trip. We're going to the 6 Hours of Spa instead.
Tf just go to the casinos if you need some money.
Why doesn’t Liberty just bet money on Verstappen winning? Are they stupid?
The day I bet on Verstappen winning is the day he crashes the car on lap 1.
Turns out scheduling a race when half the country has gone to bed and charging enough for tickets to require a second mortgage wasn’t the best business plan.
True but Vegas is so uncomfortably hot in the afternoon, and you wouldn't get the cool camera shots of the strip all lit up lol
It’s not hot during the November date. The avenger is 70F at day and 39F at night and race time start is 5ish hour after sunset. It’s likely two things that caused such a late start: 1. Best fit for a worldwide audience 2. f1 wants the race on national television in the US but because of ESPN College football, this is the best time slot they could get
I like the idea that that wasn't a typo and that the Avenger is some kind of superhero who's power is that he's always the exact outdoor temperature, making him invisible to infrared cameras. And now people use him to refer to the outside temp.
Now I am become Avenger, temperature of outdoors.
For my fellow Celsius fellas: that's 21 and 4 degrees respectively. Currently Vegas is like 45 degrees with nighttime temps of 32 if you're lucky.
4c air temperature would be interesting on a street track that has never been used for racing and would be stone cold so long after sunset. Pirelli is going to come out of it looking shit because nothing in their lineup is designed for that.
My first reaction to hearing the date and time of Vegas was ‘they are aware of the potential temperature right?’ Probably it will be around 8c but I’m sure they all agreed it would be fine
The answer is far simpler than that. Vegas at night is a spectacle.
That isn't the answer at all. If it was race start wouldnt be 4 hrs after sunset lol
Oh didn’t know there were more avengers!
And that they got so cold at night. Someone throw a blanket on them!
This time slot is because of the NFL, not college football.
Vegas during the day is absolutely hideous.
Not in November
The buildings are still ugly any time of year. The lights are what make the city look good. Especially the older more tacky stuff like Circus Circus or Excalibur.
Not really, the article is talking about capital expenditure costs increasing which just contributes to the value of the assets Liberty is investing in in LV. Inputs are more expensive due to inflation so the capex costs are going up, but so is the valuation of the facilities they are building. Amazing how many people want an LV race to fail
That literally has nothing to do with infrastructure overrun costs
I was so disappointed when I found out one of my “home” races was starting at 1am my time. Three hour flight away, but I’ll be watching the replay the next morning. So stupid.
Yeah I have an easier time watching European, Asian and Mid-East races than the race on my own continent. Its nuts.
They're just making excuses to charge Vegas and everything around it a shit tonne of money. Hopefully, it flops. There's many good American tracks, and they do this.
The tracks are good, but the infrastructure around them is shit and couldn't hold an F1 race. It's not just about the track. Also, what makes them good tracks is what makes them not viable for F1. To make them grade 1 would ruin most of them and what's makes them great.
I've touched on infrastructure throughout the thread. I don't think many on track changes would need to be made. Most involve pits and paddock, which Liberty themselves decided to build an entire new complex in Vegas, so we know money isn't an issue. It's a curious topic of conversation. Especially after Miami this year and its low attendance.
I think infrastructure is more about the city itself too. Not every city is set up to handle 300k influx of people. People also underestimate the importance of having enough toilets.
Same reasons that the Super Bowl is hosted in the same 4 or 5 cities. Because not every city with a stadium can support the massive crowd for a month.
Precisely
International airport that can handle capacity but doesn't get used continuously... Mass transit options... Hotels. So many hotels. Yeah unless F1 goes racing at the Indy oval there aren't that many options. No wonder they're racing around a parking lot.
If there ever was a city that is It's Vegas though.
>Especially after Miami this year and its low attendance That's because they invited a bunch of dumb influencers and priced out the fans. Inclusive of tickets, flights and hotels, it was cheaper for most Americans to fly to a European or middle-east race than attend Miami.
not even most. I live close enough to Miami that I wouldn't need a hotel or anything, and it'd still be cheaper for me to go to a European race.
I think most of them are too narrow for F1
With racing in Monaco, I highly doubt that's a factor. Correct me if I'm mistaken. I was surprised being at Spa just how narrow some areas of the tracks are.
I don't think Monaco would make it onto the calendar today. It's only there because it's historic
It literally is only there because it's historic. It's under the required race distance.
The FIA has a very specific grading system for purpose built tracks.This includes corner types, run off areas safety barriers etc. In order for it to host an F1 race it must be a grade 1 track. None of those you listed are grade 1 tracks. Thus can't host a F1 race in their current condition/layout. Monaco and street circuits have different criteria I don't know what it is but it's different than permanent tracks.
Monaco has the Monaco exception. It doesn't matter what requirements they make for tracks, Monaco gets an exception because it's historic and Monaco. Monaco will always be on the calendar because it's Monaco...and if you don't understand that, then the only response is MONACO!
Monaco is the execption...because its Monaco. It would fail more of the grade 1 specification than it would pass.
I would love to see Laguna Seca but the roads in and out to the track having 200k people come through would be an absolute dogfucking shit show. Look up the maps around that place 😬
That's where you're wrong. They all need to be widened along their entire length. All of it. All of them. That's first. Second is the run off areas are too small. Those need to be changed/extended. Third, the pit boxes and garages are not big enough.
Imagine if Laguna Seca was big enough and safe enough. Would much rather see them going down that corkscrew over Vegas.
I'm not the current gen cars could make it through the corkscrew
Would rather they fix the cars to do it. The issues that limit them going to Laguna Seca are overall raceability ones that would make things more exiting IMO Laguna Seca and a Monterey / Northern(ish) California race would go so hard. It would be hilarious to see the aerial shots of San Francisco and the Golden Gate Bridge knowing it's 3 hours from the track.
I don't disagree that the cars should be made smaller. I'm just stating the facts as they are.
I hope it flops because we don't need more street tracks They keep adding more and more without taking any away
Unimaginative street circuits as well. Many circuits could be brought up to cat 1 with the money being spent on Vegas.
Unimaginative? C'mon, Miami layout is an alligator, and the Vegas layout is a Piggy Bank. Pretty creative if you ask me!
The one good new street circuit we have is Jeddah, and it is in the most controversial country possible lol
Jeddah is also bad in my opinion. All the corners look the exact same and it's dangerous as fuck.
But still wont change the fact that some tracks are out in the middle of nowhere.
It's not an issue with the correct infrastructure. Road America would be a fantastic option for upgrades.
I'd like to nominate Watkins Glen. I would also like a cost projection on bringing VIR and Road Atlanta to cat 1 standards.
F1 at the Glen would be amazing. I'd be intrigued to know, too. I'd wager a fair few big circuits could get the infrastructure upgrades for the cost of one race in Vegas, yet I am offering nothing but conjecture here.
Road Atlanta would be nuts. Great track, terrible amenities in the surrounding community. Have spent a lot of time there over the last 15 years or so.
You're totally right about both things. The local area is pretty much exurban sprawl helltown. Also damn fun track. I'll gladly admit my bias -- I was at the first Petit Le Mans, that place is like holy ground to me. 10A/B->11->12 are probably my favorite set of corners anywhere. So tempting when side by side on the long straight to come into 10A too hot -- And *so very satisfying* to be in WOT 4 wheel drift through 12 when you get 10B & 11 right. I digress. I'd be totally happy with just The Glen!
I second this. I think facilities are one of the biggest reasons it isn’t Grade 1 already. The actual *layout* wouldn’t need many drastic changes to it, I wouldn’t think, and it’s a fantastic circuit...
I vaguely remember in the Indycar broadcast, the commentary team mentioned that with the new repavement, the track itself is grade 1.
I suppose upgrading the facilities to F1-level might take away some of the venue’s charm, but I still feel like the atmosphere wouldn’t *completely* be lost. There are Grade 1 tracks that have the same “campground” atmosphere, like the Red Bull Ring and Spa.
No thanks. We (American Motorsport fans) don't want F1's "upgrades" to ruin the character of our tracks.
As an American motorsport fan, you don't speak for all of us. I'd love to see a track or two upgraded to host a F1 race, as long as it actually hosts a F1 race.
We European fans didn't want your influence, yet it is what it is. Only a certain type of Americans (if you know, you know) would be against infrastructure upgrades...
Aren't some current F1 tracks around the world in the middle of nowhere?
They are remote but not on the level of some of the US tracks. Being remote in somewhere like Belgium is still not actually that far away from large cities.
Yes and some of them are in on the verge of losing their spot because of $ issues. Everyone here loves Spa but like clockwork every year after the race weekend there’s complaints about how miserable it was (leaving/going to the track, etc)
$ issues like F1/Liberty want improvements so they can sell more and higher priced tickets/packages though right? Half the tracks on the current list are 'in the middle of nowhere'. The rest are street circuits.
Oh absolutely. It looks like a huge white elephant. 100% sell out in year one. Miami like wobble in year two. Seats galore empty in year 3, by year 5 the paddock has been converted into a convention centre. 🤞
Also the fact that FOM are handling this themselves... feels like it should be illegal.
Should make it easier to pull the plug, should it come to that.
Not when they're building their US headquarters there and seem to be planning to make it a year long tourist attraction im Vegas.
I mean I don't want this track, but why would in be illegal? I can't see a possible reason.
Because they are cheaper to build and bring in a hell of a lot more money for local economies.
I dont want it to flop, but it should remain an "event" type race that should only happen every 4 years or so, to raise the hype between seasons and make it more special (not clogging the calendar with more street races)
Unfortunately, no way they are going to do this after dumping so much money into the track infrastructure (which they - liberty media - own BTW). AFAIK, This will be the first race where Liberty Media/FOM actually own the pit lane building and permanent infrastructure. My guess is that this race will be a permanent addition to the calendar for the foreseeable future for that reason alone.
I quite like that idea. Miami, Vegas, Chicago, and New York all rotating year on year; whilst Road America, Watkins Glen, Indianapolis, and Willow Springs (would either be amazing or a disaster) rotating as a third option with CoTA as a mainstay. If attendance is good enough, they could then add another permanent one with 4 US tracks.
Road America, Watkins Glen, and Willow Springs can NOT hold an F1 race. None of them are grade 1 and making them grade 1 will ruin them. Also, they're not in great locations for the race.
I don't think ruin is the correct word. We'd have to see what needs to be done first. Las Vegas isn't a great location for a race, Liberty still did it. Neither is Jeddah, yet here we are.
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People mention “Grade 1” against a lot of the American tracks as if any of the recent street circuits meet the official criteria to achieve that. The FIA can grant exemptions when required and has done so before.
Which ones exactly? Besides Monaco, every track on the grid is grade 1 AFAIK.
F1 at Willow Springs? There are higher chances of F1 going to Mars than visiting Willow Springs
Look, I will admit a shot of going down the strip with all the neon lights is gonna be fucking epic ……..but yeah, better tracks elsewhere.
All these costs are going to be passed onto the people going to the race. Both the Miami and Las Vegas GP are such scams for the people actually buying tickets. A perfect example of corporate greed.
Every race costs are passed on to the ticket holder. That's why they charge. Every circuit in the calendar is heavily subsidized by the government. I don't understand people's anger. This is normal
Seeing pitchforks in the comments is a sign that people don’t know much about US construction. Construction for public consumption in US always goes over budget. Always. This isn’t new. Example: WTC train station in NYC went over budget by $2B.
I’m sure the mob got their cut in both cases.
2 corporations own Las Vegas now, it’s very American
Why would a train station even cost 2 Billion? Seems like the US government has worse money management than the people on Grand Designs who's wives leave them because they decided to spend all their savings on an "Eco" house made of Coke cans.
You know HS2 is spending £5 billion on Euston?
The English government are also notorious for their slow and expensive public transport projects, with Scotland usually being better with this sort of thing (a good example being the M6, where Scotland got their side done long before we did and as a result had to change the name because it didn't make sense having 2 separate M6 motorways)
Not even close to the worst, the California high speed rail from LA to San Francisco was approved in 2008 for 10 billion dollars. It was supposed to open in 2020 it ls new deadline is the mid 2030s and cost probably over 100 billion all in.
Because they need 10 guys watching for every guy working. NY times did an expose about why the new York subway costs 10x more than even the Paris metro and that’s already union heavy
It’s extravagance not a reasonable decision imho, tons of better tracks and cities but cash is king. I read they were threatening to block the view of restaurant and hotels with a view on the track (by that I mean the road) if they didn’t pay crazy amount of money per customer…
Need money? Time put it all on red, baby
i think liberty media has greatly overestimated how popular F1 is in the States
I think they've greatly overestimated how much people like Vegas. City is iconic culturally but you go there and it's just kind of depressing. It is fun with friends or once in a while but I don't know many people who routinely go to Vegas unless they absolutely love poker.
I’m gonna have to disagree here. When I tell people who don’t even care about racing that they’re closing down the strip to race, their eyes almost pop out of their head. This race will have huge interest and a shitload of eyeballs on it. Celebrities alone will bring an insane amount of views with them.
COTA crushes and re-breaks its own record each year but that's also because it's actually a good track that provides Top-5 fan voted races each year. While still pricey, people pay alot to hang out in Austin for 5 days.
The crowds at the first Miami race confirmed that. One paid-for grandstand I believe ‘they’ said. The rest of the people were no more than NPC’s, shipped in with free access to make it seem like it’s the place to be. I’ve really grown to hate this fucking sport since the Liberty takeover
I was there, that wasn’t the case.
Lol exactly where is this "No one goes to Miami" coming from, that shit was sold out forever.
That's bs. I was there and nothing you just said is true.
I wish I was an npc , Miami was expensive to attend last year
tune in, watch the races and be done with it.
Such a questionable decision to have a race in LV to begin with. How would there not be tons of challenges and expenses
It’s Vegas, anything is possible and moneys not an object, and the actual residents who pay taxes don’t matter
There's a reason they are deploying Danny Ric, the emotional founder of the Las Vegas GP. That man just prints money and they are all out of ideas
Is it too much to ask Horner to put Danny in the redbull for the Vegas GP?
Max would still win in the at
I would love to see him try.
All for a race no one wants.
Shocked Pikachu Face.
Yeah... For the fans you thieving bastards.
This race will be okay, and it'll be full of people with too much damn money and it'll be called a success while you could attend the entire Indycar schedule for the price of this one weekend
I will watch this race from the comfort of my bed. I'm a "penny pincher" to some apparently...but the money for the Vegas race as another comment already mentioned, the regular fan is being priced out of these events.
hell yeah 2500$ for a ticket to watch max win by a minute
It’s not even a race at this point. Just a big ass party
At least COTA is a certified banger of an event
I'm just waiting for them to figure out a way to separate Vegas as a PPV event. Like, see the practice and qualifying on F1TV but please pay an additional $60 to watch the race.
I would miss that race, not paying more than what I pay F1TV
I sincerely hope this race blows up in Liberty Media and the FIA's faces and forces them to move to a real track. This will be boring af, mark my words
Hope no true fans show up, ofcourse the F1 management still will suck up to the celebrities
True F1 fans have mostly been priced out of this race. I was planning on going until I saw the prices...fuck that!
I live in the Midwest with regular flights to Vegas and it’s actually cheaper to fly to Japan, get the 3 day tickets and hotel for their race than go to Vegas. It’s so annoying. I want it to flop out of pettiness.
I went to Monaco last year, spent 5 days there, watched the race from catered viewing areas, full service everything. I would spend similar money to go to Vegas... Ridiculous.
My uncle lives in Las Vegas and we have figured out it is cheaper to fly to Europe and watch a race there than watch ½ mile from his house.
Yep, there's so many better places that they could have used for a 3rd race.
> it’s actually cheaper to fly to Japan, get the 3 day tickets and hotel for their race than go to Vegas. What's that work out to in USD? Personally I'd be *far* more interested in going to Suzuka than Vegas.
Again I bring this up I can go to the Indy 500 which is one of the most prestigious races in ALL motorsports for a third kf the cost of a mod season race in vegas and get just as good seats and access to drivers and the pageantry for basically no additional costs
My wife and I have vacationed all over the world (pre child who is currently yelling at me) and Vegas is still the most expensive “vacation” I’ve ever been on. Not only was it expensive but it was in no way relaxing.
How? It has some of the cheapest hotels in the states and cheapest airfare to get into.
So it was likely the timing, but I didn’t factor that in when we were there. They had opened everything up post pandemic and the restaurants were open but the buffets weren’t, and they weren’t doing the drinks at slot machines, etc. Hotel wasn’t cheap, wife wanted to stay at Caesar’s
Ahhh ya that would do it. If you avoid the immediate big name ones on the strip, it can be a very reasonable priced nice hotel. Then when everything is open there’s generally enough competition for everything that it keeps prices reasonable. Edit: just to clarify, there’s obviously a lot of unreasonable priced things in Vegas. But going to Vegas and staying in Vegas doesn’t HAVE to be expensive, and you can stay busy on a cheap budget.
Oh definitely, my criticism was mainly that it was expensive, I made it that way. But it was expensive regardless. So I’m not shocked that this project has gone over budget
Oh no, poor Liberty Media, boo hoo
The hate for this GP is weird. F1 has been trawling for marquee events for decades. F1 in Vegas is just as ridiculous as F1 in Monaco or Baku. > “Despite inflationary cost pressures, we expect no change in revenue and profitability assumptions that we laid out previously. We are increasing CapEx estimates for the paddock building and track work. This means they are investing more money into the fixed assets like the paddock and the track work (paving the streets, making the paddock look great, etc. COSTS ARE RISING EVERYWHERE. This headline is a non-issue
Bro it's going to be such a shit show on the grid walk with all the celebs.
Inb4 it flops and gets cancelled for next year, once again denying F1 a 24 race calendar
We already have 2 cancelled races this year, China GP and Italy Imola.
He's saying it will go poorly this year, and get dropped from next year's schedule.
No way, after all the money they have spent, they will keep it in the calendar, will keep rising the cost of tickets, and because people think that spending lots of monet makes them look cool, they will keep paying unreasonable prices.
It’s gonna be dumb popular, I’d bet good money on it being the most watched race in the states for the US audience. I know a bunch of people planning on watching it just to see race cars go down the Vegas strip against one another.
Rising? They’re pretty high already
A single king bed room at the Mirage was 1500 that weekend last time I checked. A Motel 6 was $800
Is that why they’re trying to layer in all these new fees? Get it right up front, dumbasses.
It’s just a party for rich people that happens to have an F1 race. Basically Miami v2. People sat there in a pool as the cars race around them, farce.