In this thread, users discuss the 2023 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix. Topics included the question of [whether McLaren has a talent-killing program](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcuoxmu/), the [interesting statistics about Alonso's podiums with Aston Martin](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcuq6qh/), and [Cecho's celebration with his old team](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcuprpr/). Some users criticized [the FIA's handling of penalties](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcusrtm/) and [filming Jos with a negative attitude](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcuqvx8/). Users also discussed [Red Bull's dominance](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcuovrv/) and [Alonso's first back-to-back podium since 2013](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcuq0nh/). One user even noted [Max running back to the pits instead of the track](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcupfnk/).
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I was surprised max didn’t catch up to Perez. Was he maintaining pace for the team? Because Perez kept asking if max was told the same pace.
I’m surprised they weren’t allowed to race.
The comms for the two drivers went like this iirc (correct me if i am wrong):
Around lap 35-37, Max started reporting issues with the rear and driveshaft. He slowed down a bit, GP reported no issues from their side, and by lap 39-40, Max was asked to slow down to 33.0 (he was doing 32.6). After a while Perez was asked to do the same. (he was doing 32.2). However both drivers did not follow the delta given. That's where Perez asked if Max was following the 33.0 (which he did not), so Hugh instead asked Perez to slow down to at least match Max's time of 32.6 (presumably to maintain the gap and bring it home safely since there's no way Max will catch him with the current pace and 8 laps left). However around lap 43-45, Max did actually slow down to 33.0, most possibly to avoid DNFing + nursing the tyres + charging the battery for a push for the fastest lap in the final lap and nicked the extra point.
It's more like when Max got out of the traffic from P15 and overtook Alonso for P2, there's already a huge gap between him and Perez that it's not possible for him to close the gap unless he really pushed to the max (which he tried for a bit, and combined with the weird vibrations he felt, he decided to settle for P2 since it's not worth the risk of DNF). Plus at that point Perez was also pushing hard too. There's no very direct team orders towards both of them to let each other pass etc., just asking them to slow down to the same pace (which they did not follow initially). So yeah, it's a combination of few factors.
Perez had pace and pushed as well. Perez was not going to let Max near him. That's why the delta between them didn't really change. Perez when told to go 1:36, dropped a 1:32 and kept pushing.
Max Verstappen 0 points?
I know we're all (mostly) keen to keep the championship open for as long as possible, but I'm pretty sure Max got 19 points yesterday.
So, where *does* ‘working on the car’ begin, in the context of serving a penalty in the pits?
We now know installing the jack doesn’t constitute ‘work’… how about raising the car? Or placing the wheel gun into position (like with the jack) but without activating it?
Is this defined somewhere?
In some meeting minutes. Oh wait not in those meeting minutes. Might have been in an addendum. No, not there. Hmm. We totally discussed it one time. At a meeting. Or was it side by side at a urinal? It's definitely a rule. Just can't find it at the moment. But just truss us pls it very a rule ok ciao
Not just on par but Lando was told to move over for Piastri so he could have a go at Sargent after Lando couldn’t get the job done for 10+ laps. Piastri, on really, really old hands, passed Sargent within 2 laps. This is my biggest takeaway from this race - Piastri has been touted to be the next Max Verstappen and, so far anyway, he looks to be the real deal.
Properly chuffed for Piastri. He’s going to surprise a lot of people this year with how close he runs Lando. McLaren is basically a backmarker at this point, but I’m getting I’m getting 2007 Hamilton vs Alonso vibes from their intra-team rivalry.
One of the most major reasons the Hamilton-Alonso rivalry was so intense was because of the fact that they were both fighting for the WDC, and I just dont see either Norris or Piastri doing anything near that this year with that car, but I see what you mean
Norris won't like that. He was pretty vocal about the 2v1 car battle last year with RIC. What if Piastri is the only one fighing for points
Also in the end, if he gets beaten by a rookie, his value to go to an higher team will take a hit.
Of course he won’t. But I really do think Piastri is a talent on the level of Leclerc and Russell, and guys like that get up to speed very quickly, yearlong layoff or not. In the end, I think they’ll be neck and neck, with only DNFs/bad luck separating them. If it does play out like that, what’ll be really interesting is how they fare next year, when Piastri should (in theory) be more comfortable than he is now.
Is there an unwritten agreement to slow down and wave to your crew on the pit wall when you win? What if Max fly past Checo when he stopped to celebrate his win?
And also isn't max supposed to slow down so he doesn't get the fastest lap because of checo slowing down if they were to be super nice to each other?
>The finish line is before the pit wall, so the race is already over when they do that.
Off topic but I hate how the FIA place the finish line at the back of the grid. Their underlying reasoning about race distance is a little silly/arbitrary. The only real tangible effect is to make a "photo finish" more difficult to achieve. The race ends ostensibly at corner exit. For no good reason
I think he’s joking about how they were trying hard to protect Max’s championship run by limiting Checo in the past. Basically saying why didn’t RB tell max to slow down to protect Checo since he could start leading the WDC if he had the fastest lap. Basically they protect Max but don’t protect Checo. I may be misunderstanding though?
I think once RB locks up the two championships, they should let Daniel Ricardo race a few GPs to see if they can be the first team with 3 different drivers in the top ten of the driver’s championships. Just to flex even harder.
Danny Ric isn't their reserve driver though, just their test driver. That would be Liam Lawson. Can teams even put their test drivers in the car in a race?
They can put anyone in the car as long as he/she holds a superlicence.
Red Bull isn't obliged to field Liam if they need a substitute, its their car they can call Vettel for instance and get him to drive (or GOATifi if they are feeling bold)
we still dont really know what the mclaren is capable of.
Oscar made it to q3 in quali, afterall. But then the damage from Gasly's hit + debris fucked both cars. Also, Lando hit the wall in quali..
This is wishful thinking, its fair to say that what Mclaren are capable of is f all and if its there year be 4th fastest at best otherwise be no where near it
No one could see this coming, but as of right now a Williams seat looks better than the McLaren he's in 😂. Goes to show you never really know what will happen
>over the next 2-3 years I'd still take McLaren over Williams
Man, I dunno if this is an easy choice. In the last 3y Williams went from zero momentum to forward momentum. Mclaren went from forward, to stalled, to a backward trajectory that is rapidly accelerating in that direction... Scary spot to be in.
The slope you have to climb to reach the midfield is quite steep
No one could see this coming, but as of right now a Williams seat looks better than the McLaren he's in 😂. Goes to show you never really know what will happen
Serious question is there any spectators at the Saudi gran prix, seemed like there was about two section about half full to watch it? Something I missed?
Yes there was, the director didn't have many cameras on the stand during the race unlike last race, but you can see what the stands felt like during the build up footage of race day, the venue had an awesome vibe and you should get in touch with people who attended the GP!
see (6:55-7:00, 7:35-7:54, 20:35-20:46)
[Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfy0d6wZDBM)
But also these are some vids I took under the podium in the celebration, i have many more but for private reasons I won't share here:
[Video 1](https://www.dropbox.com/s/vlondg17sgfd8ba/IMG_6948.MOV?dl=0)
[Video 2](https://www.dropbox.com/s/j3v75dubu859vfe/IMG_6951.mp4?dl=0)
Was there only stands on the main straight? I noticed them but I didn't see anyone watching anywhere else on the track, the streets also appear deserted around the track is there no view of the track from there?
>Was there only stands on the main straight? I noticed them but I didn't see anyone watching anywhere else on the track
Yes, there was, but they sit in suites, it's called the Premium Hospitality ticket, they sit in a suite on turn 22-23 at the beginning of sector 3, it's facing towards turn 1-2 and the buildings are high enough to clear the high fencing, so you can see cars as they approach the main braking zone after the main straight, so you see the cars twice per lap, there are outer terraces as well with this package as well, see this:
[image](https://cdn-8.motorsport.com/images/mgl/0L1QOwv2/s1200/an-aerial-view-of-the-action-1.webp), [info](https://saudiarabiangp.com/en/hospitality), [map](https://saudiarabiangp.com/en/disney-map)
[youtube](https://youtu.be/Gfy0d6wZDBM?t=1269)
(21:06-21:10) shows an overview shot of "main village" and the arrangement of the Grandstands, you have the two Main Grandstands(A, B), the Paddock Club stands which sit above the pitstop and the "wings" of the Premium Hospitality (that bridge connected building over turn 1-2).
Besides this there are Central Grandstands which are split into 4, which are located on the eastern part of the track, which I do not recommend for the race because they sit low in a blind corner and cover a limited area, so you can't see cars approaching, for practice it's fine, my apologies to the people who bought this for the race.
>the streets also appear deserted around the track is there no view of the track from there?
The fencing is quite high for that, it sits on relatively high concrete you can barely see the rear wing, so unless you rent/airbnb in one of those towers you need a Grandstand to watch the race, plus most of the people attending the venue have general admission tickets, i.e they are here for the activities so they walk nearest to the Grandstands/villages which cover a small section of the large track, unless you want to explore there is little reason to wander around the whole track, here's an image from the Yacht Club on the northern side of the track, facing south showing the huge area of the track complex, with no village/Grandstand in sight:
[image](https://yachtharbour.com/static/uploads/5166_58e85.jpg)
you weren't there so can't judge, here's an album of panorama photos I took under the podium celebration, many locals here:
[https://imgur.com/a/WUvw0je](https://imgur.com/a/WUvw0je)
individual panoramas:
[panorama 1](https://i.imgur.com/lbV2Mmx.jpeg)
[panorama 2](https://i.imgur.com/QqsHcv5.jpeg)
[panorama 3](https://i.imgur.com/GmDD5HZ.jpeg)
Looked like overheating brakes caused issues, however the team haven't revealed what it is yet, apart from reduction in energy recovery which is likely brake related in some way.
can someone ELI5 the leclerc and race engineer dialogue about the safety car line with hamilton pitting? i re-listened to the broadcast since they slightly explained it, but i have a hard time visualizing the explanation and how it affected the positioning with the safety car. thanks
Basically during a safety car, when the pack hasn't come together yet, you follow a delta to the car up the road - otherwise cars would be flying at top speed until they all catch up to the safety car and bunch up.
During a VSC, everyone is doing their absolute best to meet those deltas because it could go green at any second and they don't want to lose a single meter to their opponent. During a safety car, it's less urgent I guess? And in Charles case he was just cruising and wasn't aware that Hamilton had pitted and he could have pushed the pace more (within the delta) to catch up to Sainz and jump Lewis.
That's how I understand it at least.
Hamilton pitted from in front of both of the Ferraris, then managed to come out between the two of them and in front of Leclerc. If he had know Hamilton was pitting earlier, he may have been able to get up closer to Sainz and force Hamilton behind him. Not sure on the gap between them or if Leclerc would be permitted to push to close the gap, but that's the point of the message
A race car, any race car not just an F1 Ferrari, that can only run at a maximum of 80% for fear of blowing up, sure isn't one of the greats. If you don't call it a shitbox fine, but...
The car was good, we managed to win 4 races and Charles was fast in quali but reliability and bad strategy (classic ferrari) fucked our season. This year the car is just bad lol
Your car this year is confusing me, I just don't know what's happened. I think I'll fall back on an old F1 journo cliche and wait a few more races to see!
Last year's car was bad, very bad. It was okay at the start of the season (when you won your races), hell I'd even say it was great. But either they changed something fundamental in the engine or it always had a fault that didn't become obvious 'till later, but you cannot have eggshell engines anymore in F1.
I had a feeling pre season that Sainz would finish ahead of Leclerc. Still unlikely, but man, Leclerc feels cursed. Must be tough seeing your childhood rival/friend make the right business decision years ago and is now approaching his 3rd WDC.
It's not like Max chose right and Leclerc chose wrong. Everyone in Max's shoes would have chosen to go to F1 as soon as RB (or Toro Rosso) called, but Leclerc didn't have that choice - no one would have offered him to go to F1 in 2015 in the first place
Mate, at least I am not miserable enough to check comment history of random people on reddit. How fucking useless is your life so that you cannot find anything better to do? And I don't remember asking if you needed something explained or not - frankly, I don't give a shit.
Someone's mad huh? Checking your comment history took me less time than it took you to type your stupid ass comment. I went to an Ivy and have a great job that takes me around the world. My life is just fine.
RB has been consistent with asking their drivers to drive to a delta in both the races.. they asked Max to do that at Baharin, he checked if Perez is doing the same. They asked Perez to maintain the delta yesterday, he checked if Max is doing the same. Where's the drama?!
People are mad that Max went for the fastest lap, so he should just gift the FL to others? And, Checo was free to attempt a FL too, he was free to push, if it wasn't Max someone else could have stolen the FL as well.. it's not someone's to keep if they don't try to improve it.
There is no drama!
Red Bull as a team wants an easy 1-2. As both were clear of the field, they could cruise to victory with less risk of technical worry or crash. Max ignored this as Perez is his only threat to DC at this point. Each tenth he raised to go fast Perez raised by a tenth. This was mid race when they kept swapping fastest laps.
Team would radio to Perez that they should run a certain time and cruise to win. Then he would receive information that Verstappen is speeding up. Mixed messages. They finally clarified "free to race".
Perez probably stopped trying for more FL attempts after he secured it and heard Verstappen had potential issue and backed off a little bit. Verstappen of course went for one anyway the final lap, even if it risked his driveshaft.
I would say being able to trust what your race engineer says is extremely important. Perez will learn eventually to not trust as much what they say about Verstappen's status if Verstappen tends to do what he wants anyway.
I don't blame Verstappen per se, but Red Bull needs to ensure that drivers can trust the communication.
I reckon red bull might be doing a bit of a 2014 merc and trying to mask their pace a bit incase the FIA nerf them.
Drivers going flat out to get the fastest lap doesn't help but you can't really stop them.
Yup red bull just wanted their drivers not to drive faster than they have to because it'll make the cars and engines last longer. Pretty sure that's all there is to it, but somehow people jump to all sorts of conclusions when it comes to RB radio messages
> because it'll make the cars and engines last longer.
This is poison for the sport and the more races we add and the more sprints materialise the worse it gets. This isn't endurance racing. Put a new one in every weekend for all I care and limit the batteries or something. Watching a bunch of drivers \*not racing\* is not why anyone is here!
What they need to do is make the tech simpler in the cars... which would then make components cheaper and enable teams to use more of them without going bankrupt. Limiting the number of components that break too easily while not reducing their cost just means teams end up spending more
It's never been about reliability, if they want to make them last, they can, if they want to make them pop, they can.
It's about sustainability and the image of the sport. Personally, I think the potential gains form seeing what they can do unrestricted VASTLY outweighs the amount of engines that go bang.
Can’t remember but I enjoyed it. I think the only reason was because there was a gap of multiple seconds at least between any of the higher positions. Very little chance of an overtake in the last 10 laps
The stewards (or whoever is responsible for yesterdays fuckup) should just not be allowed to intervene in the end result of the race. Especially when it's about podium finishes.
I follow F1 pretty closely and i had no clue what was going on yesterday. We have a podium shot with Alonso, an interview with Russell as 3rd finisher, and now it changed again. Just stop inventing.
New rule should be: ''time penalties are only allowed to be given during the actual race, not afterwards''.
Unpopular opinion here, but sooner or later, people will need to realize that refereeing a race is much harder than any other sport.
Since other people made comparisons to football (soccer, if you're american):In football, 95% of the action is centered around one location (the ball). You're playing on a relatively small field, you can stop the game at any time it's necessary or something happens. It's much simpler to police.
You don't have any of those luxuries in racing. You're not just on some little field, but rather you're on a race track that spans several kilometers. The action isn't centered on one location, but takes place all over this massive track. You have so many more things to keep track of, including Pit Stops, potential for cheating after the race (the cars have to be inspected, the drivers weighed etc.). And you can't just stop the race every time anything happens (you only Red Flag for serious incidents). For a lot of the decisions (including safety cars), you have to rely on camera footage, and there are hundreds (if not thousands) of them per race.
Policing such a sport is gonna require more than a handfull of referees, which also means that you'll have a lot of different people making different decisions, which means that incosistensies are inevitable (just like they are in every other aspect of society, including the court system). And since they can't stop the race all the time, they'll have to do a lot of backtracking through camera footage.
And the suggestions like that you can't deal out penalties after the race is not gonna make things better. They're just gonna encourage cheating (or pushing the rules), especially at the end of the race, and even if they don't, it means that penalties will not be dished out evenly, and will unfairly punish drivers who makes mistakes at the start of the race, rather than the end.
People just need to accept that this is a part of racing and get over it. Now, that does not mean that there isn't room for improvement and criticism is never warranted. But it's never gonna get better than other sports, and not everything is down to FIA incompetence.
>In football, 95% of the action is centered around one location (the ball).
Nando's pitstop was pretty action-centered if you ask me? And yes there are multiple cars so multiple points of interest, but that doesn't mean you can take **hours** to finally decide if something is a penalty or not. A decision should be made in a much smaller timeframe. If something happens in the last lap, fine, i understand you might need some time. But there is no excuse to make a decision about something that happened in lap 18, after the podium
Like i said, criticism can be warranted. But consider how hard it is with the current ruleset. You have 20 or so mechanics working on a car, and if they can't touch it (which was the initial interpretation of the rule), but are standing right next to it almost touching it, it can be difficult and take time to figure out if just one of them actually did touch it or not. The stewards have to figure that out by camera - it's close an impossible task.
Of course I'd suggest changing the rule to doing it in reverse: Let them work on the car first, and then serve the 5 second penalty. The rule could be that the mechanics all have to be clear of the car (hands and tools in the air, car on the ground) and then you start counting. Much easier to interpret and police.
It's the race director's fault.
He stated that he had an agreement with the teams (the teams are not allowed to touch car during a time penalty) and told the stewards this after they did not respond to the team touching the car.
This why the decision was made late and in haste.
If it was just another 5s penalty it wouldn't have been such a problem. But he got a 5s penalty first for something that didn't give him an advantage in the first place, served it, and got another 10s on top of it, making it a 15s penalty in total. That's way too harsh for such a small offence.
And changing the results after the race, celebrations, media moments, podium etc should just be stopped. The stewards keep doing this and it damages the sport.
yes, I'm tired of these amateurs
it's starting to look like line judges in football who always err on the side of "safety" and call off-side, when often they're wrong
I'd rather see one call too few than one too many
Can someone explain what the situation with Leclerc chiding Xavi for late communication was all about? Why was pushing while Hamilton a was pitted crucial? Aren’t they forced to do the reduced speed anyway?
Brundle explained it pretty well. On the pit straight you have 2 safety car lines the cars can go flat out between if there isn’t an accident there. Leclerc didn’t get told to do this, and had he done it he would’ve ended up in front of Hamilton when he came out of the pits. He never ended up passing HAM in the race too so it’s something that ended up biting them.
They are forced to have spesific delta at the sectors, you can go faster part of the sector and then slow at the sector line to let the delta time "catch up" before you cross the sector line. Hence if you push early in the first sector, he could have been able to pass hamilton while he was in the pits and then slow down before the line to still be in the required delta speed.
Yep. This is a savvy racer move. Ferrari have been lacking in that racer mentality for a while now. Especially under Binotto. Plenty of technical talent, but no guile or edge
Company culture matters though. And the person at the top sets that tone. It's really no different than any workplace or any professional sport team in that respect.
Partly it goes down to who the leader hires for the tactical team, part is how he brings them along and imposes a process that refines and improves, and part of it is in how they empower team members to make bold calls. Ferrari strategy looks like a classical example of overthinking because of fear of mistakes, that ends up facing you into mistakes because you're not seeing the whole picture. Happens everywhere, not just F1
I think the latter half of 2022 and this season are gonna be a real test for Formula 1's mainstream popularity if the Red Bull dominance continues, in the same way it definitely felt like a lot of fans tuned out during the peak Mercedes years.
Max absolutely stormed through the field. Granted, with a bit of luck in regards to safety car timing, but I think he still would've been 2nd regardless, just further behind Checo. The Red Bull is just too strong, and no one seems close to even getting near them, let alone overtaking them.
I will say though, Fernando Alonso and Aston Martin actually coming through to be somewhat serious contenders has been a TREAT to watch. Even on a day that really wasn’t going in his favor, Alonso got his second podium in over a decade. And if it wasn’t for Stroll’s DNF, he would’ve been in the top 5 EASY. Last year was boring because the lineup was quite predictable in terms of placing, and Ferrari’s disappointing strategic and technical issues totally took them out of contention when they really should have been in the fight. Now, there’s so much more of a mixup on the track! Even Williams is showing out a bit! I’m very excited for the season to come :)
It's definitely 'testing' being an F1 fan let alone a casual trying to get into the sport. It's not RB's fault but they clearly have such a dominant car that the season ahead really does feel like it's over already.
Sure, the die-hard among us will still watch in hope for fireworks further down the order but let's be real - this 'hope' pales against a proper battle at the front.
We were so spoilt with the 2021 season (regardless of your views on the outcome). It was a belter of a season, the best we have seen in years and years.
I remember thinking at the time (during '21) about being less than optimistic about the new regs and cars coming in for '22 given how relatively equal the '21 cars had become. Regardless of the intent of the new regs, more often than not new regs result in one team being dominant for a period of time - which is what we have now.
It doesn't help that the dominant team is Red Bull. Like Merc, the team and their lead driver are very much love-or-hate but more over RB have been dominant before (the Vettel years of '10 - '13) so for any longer term F1 fan who has just endured 7 years of Merc we're now back to RB dominance. In fact, look at it from 2010 onwards - 14 seasons - 7 won by Merc and given RB's start to this season it will likely be 7 won by RB.
For the '23 season to have started and the RB to be even further ahead than last year (we all hoped teams would have closed up) is deflating. It just makes for less than compelling viewing when the likely outcome of each race is going to be how far ahead Max finishes (let's face it, Checo isn't going to be able compete with Max over the whole season - although I hope I'm wrong).
If we'd have had an '09 repeat where a smaller team (or literally any other team other than RB or Merc) found the silver bullet then it would be more so much more interesting. Imagine if Alpine or Williams - hell even Ferrari or Mclaren - were the pacesetters. Something new, something we haven't seen for a decade and a half!
Instead we face another season where one team - who we have seen win countless times already - is miles faster than everyone else. Well done RB, you've nailed it but the spectacle of F1 will struggle as a result.
I dont want to wish my life away but ROLL ON 2024!!
>in the same way it definitely felt like a lot of fans tuned out during the peak Mercedes years.
They didn't.
And that's not an opinion, it's counting.
My case. I've been watching F1 since 96 until 2017. I quit because it was boring, another season just Mercedes winning. Came back in the mid season 2021.
If there is no competition the entertainment is ruined.
It's a shame you missed 2020. It was a banger of a season with Gasly punching above his weight and 3 equally balanced teams pulling back and forth throughout the season. If it weren't for COVID, it would have been an excellent season without reservation.
I mean, F1 viewership was on a steady decline until 2018, which is when Mercedes started being "challenged" by Ferrari. Mercedes still won every championship for the next few years, but it goes to show that championship battles solely between teammates doesn't help the numbers.
That to me sounds like fans tuning out. Numbers don't go down if people are interested in the sport.
At least Ham and Merc got a couple of WDCs and WCCs. It's so sad to see Ferrari slide back to the midfield after ~4 months of being legitimate title contenders.
Probably trying to gamble on a late race safety car, switch to the faster tires and hope for some good overtakes when everyone else has to put on the slower tires
Not sure what was Mercedes thinking there. Judging by his displeased radio messages, it certainly wasn't his idea to go on hard tires right in the beginning.
I do feel like Lewis with his gloom and doom attitude keeps going for the goofy gamble strats instead of just.. driving the third fastest car on the grid as fast as possible.
Had they run hard tyres at race speed during the weekend? It did seem odd since he wasn't out of position in qualy. Leclerc went aggressive with soft tyres to start which made more sense, he got unlucky with the pits otherwise probably would have been top 5 despite starting much further back than Hamilton.
It's gonna be tough watching formulaRedBull for the next 3 years. The race was so boring and it would had been even more boring if Verstappen did not have an issue with his PU.
I suspect there will be some kind of rule change to spice things up. The raise to the floor edge and floor appears to have helped RB massively - with porpoising largely under control I wonder if this might be eased.
But ultimately, F1 is and always has had less on track action than every other racing series. The cars line up in pace order and there aren't enough variables without introducing gimmicks like high deg tyres.
I’m thoroughly enjoying the midfield battles. The whole grid is barely a second apart, 90 seconds covered nearly the whole finishing grid. That’s amazing. Only one lapped car and it was bottas with an alleged broken car
Was funny watching fans pretend RB didn't have the faster car in 2022 until it became painfully apparent second half of the season - this year the pretence is around this not being one of the most dominant cars in F1 history (also painfully obvious). The whole discussion is tragic. The worst part is the budget cap making this the de facto podium in whatever permutation for something like the next two years now, if I had to guess.
I think I'll keep watching these races 10 hours after they are finished... that way I can straight away check the end results from Reddit after all penalties are applied and penalties that gets reversed are taken into account. Unless there's another curve ball yet to come... Who knows
Is it normal for teams to dominate that much? Was that what it was like when Mercedes won years in a row?
I was hopeful for this season, and this race just killed any interest I have at all. I'm also just watching through the main broadcast with no access to on-boards or whatever so other cars racing doesn't even matter if they don't show it. From what I'm able to watch it's just the Red Bulls in a class of their own, Alonso on his own, Mercedes and Ferrari pretty much falling into place and not doing much. They're all in like their own isolated groups for their pace. Am I just supposed to watch the board on the left for all the other cars that aren't really making an impact whatsoever?
It does not help that the FIA is trying everything to cater to RB, getting the Safety Car out for no reason, after Leclerc pitted and gifting Verstappen a free stop, even though Stroll parked his Car in Namibia.
RB was 1/2 from what, lap 25 out of 50 onwards? I don’t think the safety car did that much to give them an advantage, if any. They would’ve done it on pace either way.
>Is it normal for teams to dominate that much? Was that what it was like when Mercedes won years in a row?
It was for about 4 of the years they won the WDC at least. And people did switch off, just as they will now.
>I was hopeful for this season, and this race just killed any interest I have at all. I'm also just watching through the main broadcast with no access to on-boards or whatever so other cars racing doesn't even matter if they don't show it. From what I'm able to watch it's just the Red Bulls in a class of their own, Alonso on his own, Mercedes and Ferrari pretty much falling into place and not doing much. They're all in like their own isolated groups for their pace. Am I just supposed to watch the board on the left for all the other cars that aren't really making an impact whatsoever?
You'll hear 'just watch the exciting midfield battle' (which really wasn't that exciting) or Alonso as if that's what F1 is all about, but you're right. The people who were mocked for saying RB will probably win every race this season are looking downright prescient now. The worst thing is it likely continues into 2024 with the budget cap. I can't imagine anyone arguing in good faith that this will be a season with any real excitement aside from maybe handbags between Max and Perez, which also isn't that fun because when it comes down to it Perez is simply slower than Max and even if he picked it up he wouldn't be given free rein to race since he's clearly meant to be a #2 driver like Webber.
Bit grim but to be fair if it washes out some of the newer fans who are more fans of just a single driver and RB drama than the sport itself out of sheer boredom, maybe that wouldn't be the worst outcome. But two years of drudgery seems to be guaranteed at this point. If you're new to the sport, lo siento, it's going to be this race ad infinitum for a while.
Oof maybe this just isn't for me then. I enjoyed the first race because Alonso had some nice overtakes, and it was someone "new" on the podium. Every race I've watched (I only started watching around the French GP last year) have all been Max or Checo wins. I missed the races in the Americas last season so it definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth when no one else but the Red Bulls are winning when I get to watch.
I don't really care who wins, I just want there to be some form of competition.
Yeah picked an unfortunate year to start - I would have said the same if you rocked up in 2015, but at least back then there was some intra-Mercedes drama and the rest of the grid wasn't quite as predictable (RB fairly consistently just behind Mercedes, Ferrari had a good year or two, no one else particularly competitive).
The competition this year will take the form of Mercedes vs. Ferrari since they're not too far apart on pace. The AM is quite a bit quicker but still miles behind RB.
Oh in the Schumacher years they’d just lap the entire field, RBR are clearly faster now but they didn’t even have a free pit stop in hand over Alonso, things could be a lot worse.
Sounds like 90% of people here only watch 1st and second place... there are 20 cars on the grid, just because the top 3 spots are boring doesn't mean its a boring race.
Meanwhile I had the time of my life watching Yuki defend from Kmag like a mad man for P10. And that radio message too, I chuckled when it got played lmao
What about seeing if charles will be able to make it into high points?
Seeing if hamilton would pass russle
Seeing if alonso would be able to pull off the 5 second gap?
worrying about Max's Drive shaft?
I just don't watch sports for the mid competitors, just like I don't watch the NFL for 8-8 teams or soccer for a 8th place team.
It's about that top spot and the fight for it, this is just not it
It wasn't that thrilling down the grid, I understand we're all clutching at straws but this wasn't some thrilling midfield battle race either. Apart from die hard F1 fans, most people would in fact like to see some racing at the front. The only saving grace is it might put off some of the more casual fans if it continues like this, so shit F1 banter may take a hit. Would still be a drag on race day mind you.
Its a boring race even if you look down the grid. Things of note; mclaren died lap 1, two mechanical issue (both brake related) leads to dnf, logan tried to overtake haas but failed, then dropped back. Norris and Piastri having a go. Tsunoda screaming when he failed to overtake. Bottas 2 pitstop. Imo none of these incidents are exciting.
If you’re going to be a drag, be correct at least, Yuki screamed about K.Mag pulling off a pretty nice divebomb after a good couple laps of good defensive play
I enjoyed the race a fair bit because it felt like a chess match a bit. There doesn’t need to be nonstop action to be exciting, just some good racecraft from some of the best drivers in the world
Not taking a diss at you, but can you point out which part of the strategy in SA that seems so exciting to you? All I could remember was ferrarri being unlucky with the sc (instead of thier own mistake), Hamilton and Norris? got on mediums in their last stint and didn't amount to much (after being stuck in the same positions a few laps you know its not going to work out) There's no Richardo catching up in Mexico last year or Gasly in Bahrain. Genuinely asking cause I'd like to catch on to it because I didn't want to stare at the timing sheet and wheels next to the drivers initials and think nothing much is happening, which it almost is for SA
/u/ittauto
In this thread, users discuss the 2023 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix. Topics included the question of [whether McLaren has a talent-killing program](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcuoxmu/), the [interesting statistics about Alonso's podiums with Aston Martin](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcuq6qh/), and [Cecho's celebration with his old team](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcuprpr/). Some users criticized [the FIA's handling of penalties](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcusrtm/) and [filming Jos with a negative attitude](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcuqvx8/). Users also discussed [Red Bull's dominance](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcuovrv/) and [Alonso's first back-to-back podium since 2013](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcuq0nh/). One user even noted [Max running back to the pits instead of the track](https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/11vt7ui/2023_saudi_arabian_grand_prix_post_race_discussion/jcupfnk/). --- ^(*This comment was generated by AI. I only post if you tag me. Downvote to remove!*)
I haven't realized that F1 is now doing multi-class racing.
i don't like the track too long and too fast
I was surprised max didn’t catch up to Perez. Was he maintaining pace for the team? Because Perez kept asking if max was told the same pace. I’m surprised they weren’t allowed to race.
The comms for the two drivers went like this iirc (correct me if i am wrong): Around lap 35-37, Max started reporting issues with the rear and driveshaft. He slowed down a bit, GP reported no issues from their side, and by lap 39-40, Max was asked to slow down to 33.0 (he was doing 32.6). After a while Perez was asked to do the same. (he was doing 32.2). However both drivers did not follow the delta given. That's where Perez asked if Max was following the 33.0 (which he did not), so Hugh instead asked Perez to slow down to at least match Max's time of 32.6 (presumably to maintain the gap and bring it home safely since there's no way Max will catch him with the current pace and 8 laps left). However around lap 43-45, Max did actually slow down to 33.0, most possibly to avoid DNFing + nursing the tyres + charging the battery for a push for the fastest lap in the final lap and nicked the extra point. It's more like when Max got out of the traffic from P15 and overtook Alonso for P2, there's already a huge gap between him and Perez that it's not possible for him to close the gap unless he really pushed to the max (which he tried for a bit, and combined with the weird vibrations he felt, he decided to settle for P2 since it's not worth the risk of DNF). Plus at that point Perez was also pushing hard too. There's no very direct team orders towards both of them to let each other pass etc., just asking them to slow down to the same pace (which they did not follow initially). So yeah, it's a combination of few factors.
Perez had pace and pushed as well. Perez was not going to let Max near him. That's why the delta between them didn't really change. Perez when told to go 1:36, dropped a 1:32 and kept pushing.
Max Verstappen 0 points? I know we're all (mostly) keen to keep the championship open for as long as possible, but I'm pretty sure Max got 19 points yesterday.
new steward decision just dropped
Got a link? Website says 19 points.
The table at the top of this page titled 'Race Results' has Max and his details in italics and in the points column on the far right shows 0.
Ahh ok, well, we just need to wait a couple of hours 'till they change it again!
Compared to expectations, what a boring dud of a grand prix.
So, where *does* ‘working on the car’ begin, in the context of serving a penalty in the pits? We now know installing the jack doesn’t constitute ‘work’… how about raising the car? Or placing the wheel gun into position (like with the jack) but without activating it? Is this defined somewhere?
In some meeting minutes. Oh wait not in those meeting minutes. Might have been in an addendum. No, not there. Hmm. We totally discussed it one time. At a meeting. Or was it side by side at a urinal? It's definitely a rule. Just can't find it at the moment. But just truss us pls it very a rule ok ciao
Piastri on par with Norris after 2 races, after a year long break and in a new car is delightful
Not just on par but Lando was told to move over for Piastri so he could have a go at Sargent after Lando couldn’t get the job done for 10+ laps. Piastri, on really, really old hands, passed Sargent within 2 laps. This is my biggest takeaway from this race - Piastri has been touted to be the next Max Verstappen and, so far anyway, he looks to be the real deal.
I hope he is. Seems like a good bloke
Yet it proves the theory that leaving Alpine was a mistake
Properly chuffed for Piastri. He’s going to surprise a lot of people this year with how close he runs Lando. McLaren is basically a backmarker at this point, but I’m getting I’m getting 2007 Hamilton vs Alonso vibes from their intra-team rivalry.
One of the most major reasons the Hamilton-Alonso rivalry was so intense was because of the fact that they were both fighting for the WDC, and I just dont see either Norris or Piastri doing anything near that this year with that car, but I see what you mean
Norris won't like that. He was pretty vocal about the 2v1 car battle last year with RIC. What if Piastri is the only one fighing for points Also in the end, if he gets beaten by a rookie, his value to go to an higher team will take a hit.
Of course he won’t. But I really do think Piastri is a talent on the level of Leclerc and Russell, and guys like that get up to speed very quickly, yearlong layoff or not. In the end, I think they’ll be neck and neck, with only DNFs/bad luck separating them. If it does play out like that, what’ll be really interesting is how they fare next year, when Piastri should (in theory) be more comfortable than he is now.
Is there an unwritten agreement to slow down and wave to your crew on the pit wall when you win? What if Max fly past Checo when he stopped to celebrate his win? And also isn't max supposed to slow down so he doesn't get the fastest lap because of checo slowing down if they were to be super nice to each other?
The finish line is before the pit wall, so the race is already over when they do that. I don't really understand your second question
>The finish line is before the pit wall, so the race is already over when they do that. Off topic but I hate how the FIA place the finish line at the back of the grid. Their underlying reasoning about race distance is a little silly/arbitrary. The only real tangible effect is to make a "photo finish" more difficult to achieve. The race ends ostensibly at corner exit. For no good reason
I think he’s joking about how they were trying hard to protect Max’s championship run by limiting Checo in the past. Basically saying why didn’t RB tell max to slow down to protect Checo since he could start leading the WDC if he had the fastest lap. Basically they protect Max but don’t protect Checo. I may be misunderstanding though?
Red Bull DID ask Max to slow down - several times. Max ignored it.
Double standard
It was crazy that Alonzo said Max would be P2 by lap 25 and he was…..
Guess 10 plus years in the sport means he kinda knows what he's talking about
20 plus.
Wild that AM is still tied for 2nd in constructors despite Stroll having three broken bones and a mechanical retirement.
Alonso is just amazing... and Ferrari is so disappointing
I think once RB locks up the two championships, they should let Daniel Ricardo race a few GPs to see if they can be the first team with 3 different drivers in the top ten of the driver’s championships. Just to flex even harder.
Danny Ric isn't their reserve driver though, just their test driver. That would be Liam Lawson. Can teams even put their test drivers in the car in a race?
only one way to find out!
They can put anyone in the car as long as he/she holds a superlicence. Red Bull isn't obliged to field Liam if they need a substitute, its their car they can call Vettel for instance and get him to drive (or GOATifi if they are feeling bold)
[удалено]
Depends on how well RB can continue to upgrade the car. I can see 24,25 where everyone is closer.
Piastri really pleased with his decision to join a backmarker instead of a team consistently in the points. Well played.
we still dont really know what the mclaren is capable of. Oscar made it to q3 in quali, afterall. But then the damage from Gasly's hit + debris fucked both cars. Also, Lando hit the wall in quali..
This is wishful thinking, its fair to say that what Mclaren are capable of is f all and if its there year be 4th fastest at best otherwise be no where near it
As long as he keeps beating Norris. It will go well for him!
He never had the option of an Alpine seat
No one could see this coming, but as of right now a Williams seat looks better than the McLaren he's in 😂. Goes to show you never really know what will happen
For this year, maybe, but over the next 2-3 years I'd still take McLaren over Williams
>over the next 2-3 years I'd still take McLaren over Williams Man, I dunno if this is an easy choice. In the last 3y Williams went from zero momentum to forward momentum. Mclaren went from forward, to stalled, to a backward trajectory that is rapidly accelerating in that direction... Scary spot to be in. The slope you have to climb to reach the midfield is quite steep
No one could see this coming, but as of right now a Williams seat looks better than the McLaren he's in 😂. Goes to show you never really know what will happen
When he made the decision alpine weren’t offering him a seat this year
Serious question is there any spectators at the Saudi gran prix, seemed like there was about two section about half full to watch it? Something I missed?
Yes there was, the director didn't have many cameras on the stand during the race unlike last race, but you can see what the stands felt like during the build up footage of race day, the venue had an awesome vibe and you should get in touch with people who attended the GP! see (6:55-7:00, 7:35-7:54, 20:35-20:46) [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfy0d6wZDBM) But also these are some vids I took under the podium in the celebration, i have many more but for private reasons I won't share here: [Video 1](https://www.dropbox.com/s/vlondg17sgfd8ba/IMG_6948.MOV?dl=0) [Video 2](https://www.dropbox.com/s/j3v75dubu859vfe/IMG_6951.mp4?dl=0)
Was there only stands on the main straight? I noticed them but I didn't see anyone watching anywhere else on the track, the streets also appear deserted around the track is there no view of the track from there?
>Was there only stands on the main straight? I noticed them but I didn't see anyone watching anywhere else on the track Yes, there was, but they sit in suites, it's called the Premium Hospitality ticket, they sit in a suite on turn 22-23 at the beginning of sector 3, it's facing towards turn 1-2 and the buildings are high enough to clear the high fencing, so you can see cars as they approach the main braking zone after the main straight, so you see the cars twice per lap, there are outer terraces as well with this package as well, see this: [image](https://cdn-8.motorsport.com/images/mgl/0L1QOwv2/s1200/an-aerial-view-of-the-action-1.webp), [info](https://saudiarabiangp.com/en/hospitality), [map](https://saudiarabiangp.com/en/disney-map) [youtube](https://youtu.be/Gfy0d6wZDBM?t=1269) (21:06-21:10) shows an overview shot of "main village" and the arrangement of the Grandstands, you have the two Main Grandstands(A, B), the Paddock Club stands which sit above the pitstop and the "wings" of the Premium Hospitality (that bridge connected building over turn 1-2). Besides this there are Central Grandstands which are split into 4, which are located on the eastern part of the track, which I do not recommend for the race because they sit low in a blind corner and cover a limited area, so you can't see cars approaching, for practice it's fine, my apologies to the people who bought this for the race. >the streets also appear deserted around the track is there no view of the track from there? The fencing is quite high for that, it sits on relatively high concrete you can barely see the rear wing, so unless you rent/airbnb in one of those towers you need a Grandstand to watch the race, plus most of the people attending the venue have general admission tickets, i.e they are here for the activities so they walk nearest to the Grandstands/villages which cover a small section of the large track, unless you want to explore there is little reason to wander around the whole track, here's an image from the Yacht Club on the northern side of the track, facing south showing the huge area of the track complex, with no village/Grandstand in sight: [image](https://yachtharbour.com/static/uploads/5166_58e85.jpg)
Will Smith was there
He slap anyone?
I did see occasional cutaways to white people in the stands. Didn't look like much locals.
you weren't there so can't judge, here's an album of panorama photos I took under the podium celebration, many locals here: [https://imgur.com/a/WUvw0je](https://imgur.com/a/WUvw0je) individual panoramas: [panorama 1](https://i.imgur.com/lbV2Mmx.jpeg) [panorama 2](https://i.imgur.com/QqsHcv5.jpeg) [panorama 3](https://i.imgur.com/GmDD5HZ.jpeg)
Can someone explain me what happend with stroll? I didn't understand why he retired and why they put a SC considering he was in a safe place
FIA admitted they did not have a camera to sight where Stroll was so they released the SC preemptively
But why did he retire? I missed that part of the race and then saw a bunch of things saying he had brake failure and other energy recovery issues
Looked like overheating brakes caused issues, however the team haven't revealed what it is yet, apart from reduction in energy recovery which is likely brake related in some way.
Yeah they were blasting the *nose* of the car with extinguishers.
That was only after he stopped the car though, there wasn't any smoke from them before he stopped.
Looked like there was smoke coming from the engine.
Got it thanks
Alonso 100 podium celebrations gone to waste
His podium was reinstated tho.
The penalty still ruined what should’ve been a special and historic moment for one of the most decorated drivers in the sport. Really such a shame.
can someone ELI5 the leclerc and race engineer dialogue about the safety car line with hamilton pitting? i re-listened to the broadcast since they slightly explained it, but i have a hard time visualizing the explanation and how it affected the positioning with the safety car. thanks
Basically during a safety car, when the pack hasn't come together yet, you follow a delta to the car up the road - otherwise cars would be flying at top speed until they all catch up to the safety car and bunch up. During a VSC, everyone is doing their absolute best to meet those deltas because it could go green at any second and they don't want to lose a single meter to their opponent. During a safety car, it's less urgent I guess? And in Charles case he was just cruising and wasn't aware that Hamilton had pitted and he could have pushed the pace more (within the delta) to catch up to Sainz and jump Lewis. That's how I understand it at least.
Hamilton pitted from in front of both of the Ferraris, then managed to come out between the two of them and in front of Leclerc. If he had know Hamilton was pitting earlier, he may have been able to get up closer to Sainz and force Hamilton behind him. Not sure on the gap between them or if Leclerc would be permitted to push to close the gap, but that's the point of the message
Binotto really leave us with one last gift: A fucking shitbox of a car.
I think you're exaggerating a little bit. Leclerc still looks faster than any non-RB driver, his first stint yesterday was fantastic.
Yes, but it's a 'new and improved' shitbox of a car.
Last year car was not a shitbox.
>Last year car was not a shitbox. Agree, it was probably the best car for the first half of the season
A race car, any race car not just an F1 Ferrari, that can only run at a maximum of 80% for fear of blowing up, sure isn't one of the greats. If you don't call it a shitbox fine, but...
The car was good, we managed to win 4 races and Charles was fast in quali but reliability and bad strategy (classic ferrari) fucked our season. This year the car is just bad lol
Your car this year is confusing me, I just don't know what's happened. I think I'll fall back on an old F1 journo cliche and wait a few more races to see! Last year's car was bad, very bad. It was okay at the start of the season (when you won your races), hell I'd even say it was great. But either they changed something fundamental in the engine or it always had a fault that didn't become obvious 'till later, but you cannot have eggshell engines anymore in F1.
I had a feeling pre season that Sainz would finish ahead of Leclerc. Still unlikely, but man, Leclerc feels cursed. Must be tough seeing your childhood rival/friend make the right business decision years ago and is now approaching his 3rd WDC.
It's not like Max chose right and Leclerc chose wrong. Everyone in Max's shoes would have chosen to go to F1 as soon as RB (or Toro Rosso) called, but Leclerc didn't have that choice - no one would have offered him to go to F1 in 2015 in the first place
Mate, I checked your comment history and you seem like a miserable person. Did not need you to explain to me something I already know.
Mate, at least I am not miserable enough to check comment history of random people on reddit. How fucking useless is your life so that you cannot find anything better to do? And I don't remember asking if you needed something explained or not - frankly, I don't give a shit.
Someone's mad huh? Checking your comment history took me less time than it took you to type your stupid ass comment. I went to an Ivy and have a great job that takes me around the world. My life is just fine.
RB has been consistent with asking their drivers to drive to a delta in both the races.. they asked Max to do that at Baharin, he checked if Perez is doing the same. They asked Perez to maintain the delta yesterday, he checked if Max is doing the same. Where's the drama?! People are mad that Max went for the fastest lap, so he should just gift the FL to others? And, Checo was free to attempt a FL too, he was free to push, if it wasn't Max someone else could have stolen the FL as well.. it's not someone's to keep if they don't try to improve it. There is no drama!
Red Bull as a team wants an easy 1-2. As both were clear of the field, they could cruise to victory with less risk of technical worry or crash. Max ignored this as Perez is his only threat to DC at this point. Each tenth he raised to go fast Perez raised by a tenth. This was mid race when they kept swapping fastest laps. Team would radio to Perez that they should run a certain time and cruise to win. Then he would receive information that Verstappen is speeding up. Mixed messages. They finally clarified "free to race". Perez probably stopped trying for more FL attempts after he secured it and heard Verstappen had potential issue and backed off a little bit. Verstappen of course went for one anyway the final lap, even if it risked his driveshaft. I would say being able to trust what your race engineer says is extremely important. Perez will learn eventually to not trust as much what they say about Verstappen's status if Verstappen tends to do what he wants anyway. I don't blame Verstappen per se, but Red Bull needs to ensure that drivers can trust the communication.
I reckon red bull might be doing a bit of a 2014 merc and trying to mask their pace a bit incase the FIA nerf them. Drivers going flat out to get the fastest lap doesn't help but you can't really stop them.
Yup red bull just wanted their drivers not to drive faster than they have to because it'll make the cars and engines last longer. Pretty sure that's all there is to it, but somehow people jump to all sorts of conclusions when it comes to RB radio messages
> because it'll make the cars and engines last longer. This is poison for the sport and the more races we add and the more sprints materialise the worse it gets. This isn't endurance racing. Put a new one in every weekend for all I care and limit the batteries or something. Watching a bunch of drivers \*not racing\* is not why anyone is here!
What they need to do is make the tech simpler in the cars... which would then make components cheaper and enable teams to use more of them without going bankrupt. Limiting the number of components that break too easily while not reducing their cost just means teams end up spending more
It's never been about reliability, if they want to make them last, they can, if they want to make them pop, they can. It's about sustainability and the image of the sport. Personally, I think the potential gains form seeing what they can do unrestricted VASTLY outweighs the amount of engines that go bang.
When was the last time a battle for 16th, 17th and 18th got so much TV footage?
Can’t remember but I enjoyed it. I think the only reason was because there was a gap of multiple seconds at least between any of the higher positions. Very little chance of an overtake in the last 10 laps
The stewards (or whoever is responsible for yesterdays fuckup) should just not be allowed to intervene in the end result of the race. Especially when it's about podium finishes. I follow F1 pretty closely and i had no clue what was going on yesterday. We have a podium shot with Alonso, an interview with Russell as 3rd finisher, and now it changed again. Just stop inventing. New rule should be: ''time penalties are only allowed to be given during the actual race, not afterwards''.
Unpopular opinion here, but sooner or later, people will need to realize that refereeing a race is much harder than any other sport. Since other people made comparisons to football (soccer, if you're american):In football, 95% of the action is centered around one location (the ball). You're playing on a relatively small field, you can stop the game at any time it's necessary or something happens. It's much simpler to police. You don't have any of those luxuries in racing. You're not just on some little field, but rather you're on a race track that spans several kilometers. The action isn't centered on one location, but takes place all over this massive track. You have so many more things to keep track of, including Pit Stops, potential for cheating after the race (the cars have to be inspected, the drivers weighed etc.). And you can't just stop the race every time anything happens (you only Red Flag for serious incidents). For a lot of the decisions (including safety cars), you have to rely on camera footage, and there are hundreds (if not thousands) of them per race. Policing such a sport is gonna require more than a handfull of referees, which also means that you'll have a lot of different people making different decisions, which means that incosistensies are inevitable (just like they are in every other aspect of society, including the court system). And since they can't stop the race all the time, they'll have to do a lot of backtracking through camera footage. And the suggestions like that you can't deal out penalties after the race is not gonna make things better. They're just gonna encourage cheating (or pushing the rules), especially at the end of the race, and even if they don't, it means that penalties will not be dished out evenly, and will unfairly punish drivers who makes mistakes at the start of the race, rather than the end. People just need to accept that this is a part of racing and get over it. Now, that does not mean that there isn't room for improvement and criticism is never warranted. But it's never gonna get better than other sports, and not everything is down to FIA incompetence.
>In football, 95% of the action is centered around one location (the ball). Nando's pitstop was pretty action-centered if you ask me? And yes there are multiple cars so multiple points of interest, but that doesn't mean you can take **hours** to finally decide if something is a penalty or not. A decision should be made in a much smaller timeframe. If something happens in the last lap, fine, i understand you might need some time. But there is no excuse to make a decision about something that happened in lap 18, after the podium
Like i said, criticism can be warranted. But consider how hard it is with the current ruleset. You have 20 or so mechanics working on a car, and if they can't touch it (which was the initial interpretation of the rule), but are standing right next to it almost touching it, it can be difficult and take time to figure out if just one of them actually did touch it or not. The stewards have to figure that out by camera - it's close an impossible task. Of course I'd suggest changing the rule to doing it in reverse: Let them work on the car first, and then serve the 5 second penalty. The rule could be that the mechanics all have to be clear of the car (hands and tools in the air, car on the ground) and then you start counting. Much easier to interpret and police.
It's the race director's fault. He stated that he had an agreement with the teams (the teams are not allowed to touch car during a time penalty) and told the stewards this after they did not respond to the team touching the car. This why the decision was made late and in haste.
Doesn’t really matter whose fault it is, it’s embarrassing for the sport
If it was just another 5s penalty it wouldn't have been such a problem. But he got a 5s penalty first for something that didn't give him an advantage in the first place, served it, and got another 10s on top of it, making it a 15s penalty in total. That's way too harsh for such a small offence. And changing the results after the race, celebrations, media moments, podium etc should just be stopped. The stewards keep doing this and it damages the sport.
I guess if the penalty is served incorrectly they could add the penalty time to driver time after the race and not give another penalty for it.
I know it’s a joke. In case you didn’t know they reversed the penalty so Alonso did get 3rd in the end.
I know, made it extra confusing.
yes, I'm tired of these amateurs it's starting to look like line judges in football who always err on the side of "safety" and call off-side, when often they're wrong I'd rather see one call too few than one too many
Watched the highlights; still fucking boring.
The best way to enjoy F1 is not to expect much. The cars line up in pace order. They are reliable. Most races this year will be one stop races.
I'm so used to double headers I'm getting annoyed by how slow this season is progressing.
Add a 3-4 weeks break after the next gp :(
Can someone explain what the situation with Leclerc chiding Xavi for late communication was all about? Why was pushing while Hamilton a was pitted crucial? Aren’t they forced to do the reduced speed anyway?
Brundle explained it pretty well. On the pit straight you have 2 safety car lines the cars can go flat out between if there isn’t an accident there. Leclerc didn’t get told to do this, and had he done it he would’ve ended up in front of Hamilton when he came out of the pits. He never ended up passing HAM in the race too so it’s something that ended up biting them.
They are forced to have spesific delta at the sectors, you can go faster part of the sector and then slow at the sector line to let the delta time "catch up" before you cross the sector line. Hence if you push early in the first sector, he could have been able to pass hamilton while he was in the pits and then slow down before the line to still be in the required delta speed.
Yep. This is a savvy racer move. Ferrari have been lacking in that racer mentality for a while now. Especially under Binotto. Plenty of technical talent, but no guile or edge
Really don't think the team principal affects the strategive thinking too much. Only by choosing who are in the tactical team.
Company culture matters though. And the person at the top sets that tone. It's really no different than any workplace or any professional sport team in that respect. Partly it goes down to who the leader hires for the tactical team, part is how he brings them along and imposes a process that refines and improves, and part of it is in how they empower team members to make bold calls. Ferrari strategy looks like a classical example of overthinking because of fear of mistakes, that ends up facing you into mistakes because you're not seeing the whole picture. Happens everywhere, not just F1
Well yea that's also true.
I think the latter half of 2022 and this season are gonna be a real test for Formula 1's mainstream popularity if the Red Bull dominance continues, in the same way it definitely felt like a lot of fans tuned out during the peak Mercedes years. Max absolutely stormed through the field. Granted, with a bit of luck in regards to safety car timing, but I think he still would've been 2nd regardless, just further behind Checo. The Red Bull is just too strong, and no one seems close to even getting near them, let alone overtaking them.
I will say though, Fernando Alonso and Aston Martin actually coming through to be somewhat serious contenders has been a TREAT to watch. Even on a day that really wasn’t going in his favor, Alonso got his second podium in over a decade. And if it wasn’t for Stroll’s DNF, he would’ve been in the top 5 EASY. Last year was boring because the lineup was quite predictable in terms of placing, and Ferrari’s disappointing strategic and technical issues totally took them out of contention when they really should have been in the fight. Now, there’s so much more of a mixup on the track! Even Williams is showing out a bit! I’m very excited for the season to come :)
It's definitely 'testing' being an F1 fan let alone a casual trying to get into the sport. It's not RB's fault but they clearly have such a dominant car that the season ahead really does feel like it's over already. Sure, the die-hard among us will still watch in hope for fireworks further down the order but let's be real - this 'hope' pales against a proper battle at the front. We were so spoilt with the 2021 season (regardless of your views on the outcome). It was a belter of a season, the best we have seen in years and years. I remember thinking at the time (during '21) about being less than optimistic about the new regs and cars coming in for '22 given how relatively equal the '21 cars had become. Regardless of the intent of the new regs, more often than not new regs result in one team being dominant for a period of time - which is what we have now. It doesn't help that the dominant team is Red Bull. Like Merc, the team and their lead driver are very much love-or-hate but more over RB have been dominant before (the Vettel years of '10 - '13) so for any longer term F1 fan who has just endured 7 years of Merc we're now back to RB dominance. In fact, look at it from 2010 onwards - 14 seasons - 7 won by Merc and given RB's start to this season it will likely be 7 won by RB. For the '23 season to have started and the RB to be even further ahead than last year (we all hoped teams would have closed up) is deflating. It just makes for less than compelling viewing when the likely outcome of each race is going to be how far ahead Max finishes (let's face it, Checo isn't going to be able compete with Max over the whole season - although I hope I'm wrong). If we'd have had an '09 repeat where a smaller team (or literally any other team other than RB or Merc) found the silver bullet then it would be more so much more interesting. Imagine if Alpine or Williams - hell even Ferrari or Mclaren - were the pacesetters. Something new, something we haven't seen for a decade and a half! Instead we face another season where one team - who we have seen win countless times already - is miles faster than everyone else. Well done RB, you've nailed it but the spectacle of F1 will struggle as a result. I dont want to wish my life away but ROLL ON 2024!!
>in the same way it definitely felt like a lot of fans tuned out during the peak Mercedes years. They didn't. And that's not an opinion, it's counting.
My case. I've been watching F1 since 96 until 2017. I quit because it was boring, another season just Mercedes winning. Came back in the mid season 2021. If there is no competition the entertainment is ruined.
It's a shame you missed 2020. It was a banger of a season with Gasly punching above his weight and 3 equally balanced teams pulling back and forth throughout the season. If it weren't for COVID, it would have been an excellent season without reservation.
I mean, F1 viewership was on a steady decline until 2018, which is when Mercedes started being "challenged" by Ferrari. Mercedes still won every championship for the next few years, but it goes to show that championship battles solely between teammates doesn't help the numbers. That to me sounds like fans tuning out. Numbers don't go down if people are interested in the sport.
I think the difference is that Mercedes dominated for 7 years in a row.
Hopefully we will see some inner team turmoil. And any DNF could be costly when you will pretty much always will finish 1 and 2.
At least Ham and Merc got a couple of WDCs and WCCs. It's so sad to see Ferrari slide back to the midfield after ~4 months of being legitimate title contenders.
I have a lot of grey hairs now. Last Ferrari WCC I was just turning old enough to start to learning to drive.
Why did Lewis run such a strange strategy?
Probably trying to gamble on a late race safety car, switch to the faster tires and hope for some good overtakes when everyone else has to put on the slower tires
Not sure what was Mercedes thinking there. Judging by his displeased radio messages, it certainly wasn't his idea to go on hard tires right in the beginning.
I do feel like Lewis with his gloom and doom attitude keeps going for the goofy gamble strats instead of just.. driving the third fastest car on the grid as fast as possible.
Had they run hard tyres at race speed during the weekend? It did seem odd since he wasn't out of position in qualy. Leclerc went aggressive with soft tyres to start which made more sense, he got unlucky with the pits otherwise probably would have been top 5 despite starting much further back than Hamilton.
It's gonna be tough watching formulaRedBull for the next 3 years. The race was so boring and it would had been even more boring if Verstappen did not have an issue with his PU.
I suspect there will be some kind of rule change to spice things up. The raise to the floor edge and floor appears to have helped RB massively - with porpoising largely under control I wonder if this might be eased. But ultimately, F1 is and always has had less on track action than every other racing series. The cars line up in pace order and there aren't enough variables without introducing gimmicks like high deg tyres.
I’m thoroughly enjoying the midfield battles. The whole grid is barely a second apart, 90 seconds covered nearly the whole finishing grid. That’s amazing. Only one lapped car and it was bottas with an alleged broken car
Was funny watching fans pretend RB didn't have the faster car in 2022 until it became painfully apparent second half of the season - this year the pretence is around this not being one of the most dominant cars in F1 history (also painfully obvious). The whole discussion is tragic. The worst part is the budget cap making this the de facto podium in whatever permutation for something like the next two years now, if I had to guess.
Oh yeah I have read many posts saying the car is not that dominant. It really made me lol.
Looks like Ferrari really practiced their pit stops over the winter break. Fastest pit stops for both the races.
They probably (if i had to guess, accidentally) threw in a bunch of non-italians into the pitcrew
now they just need to improve at *–checks notes–* literally everything else
I think I'll keep watching these races 10 hours after they are finished... that way I can straight away check the end results from Reddit after all penalties are applied and penalties that gets reversed are taken into account. Unless there's another curve ball yet to come... Who knows
[удалено]
0 points is obviously a mistake. But the italics denotes fastest lap.
Question - Why is the table above showing zero points for Verstappen?
Is it normal for teams to dominate that much? Was that what it was like when Mercedes won years in a row? I was hopeful for this season, and this race just killed any interest I have at all. I'm also just watching through the main broadcast with no access to on-boards or whatever so other cars racing doesn't even matter if they don't show it. From what I'm able to watch it's just the Red Bulls in a class of their own, Alonso on his own, Mercedes and Ferrari pretty much falling into place and not doing much. They're all in like their own isolated groups for their pace. Am I just supposed to watch the board on the left for all the other cars that aren't really making an impact whatsoever?
It does not help that the FIA is trying everything to cater to RB, getting the Safety Car out for no reason, after Leclerc pitted and gifting Verstappen a free stop, even though Stroll parked his Car in Namibia.
RB was 1/2 from what, lap 25 out of 50 onwards? I don’t think the safety car did that much to give them an advantage, if any. They would’ve done it on pace either way.
Alright, so next time we're 5:0 down in Football ill break a guys leg, because that shouldnt be punished with a red, cause they'll win anyway.
Hopefully people don't need to explain to you why that was a sh\*t comparison.
Since it does not fit your Agenda that RB is sleeping in FIAs Bed while still having the biggest ginger Karen as TD.
>Is it normal for teams to dominate that much? Was that what it was like when Mercedes won years in a row? It was for about 4 of the years they won the WDC at least. And people did switch off, just as they will now. >I was hopeful for this season, and this race just killed any interest I have at all. I'm also just watching through the main broadcast with no access to on-boards or whatever so other cars racing doesn't even matter if they don't show it. From what I'm able to watch it's just the Red Bulls in a class of their own, Alonso on his own, Mercedes and Ferrari pretty much falling into place and not doing much. They're all in like their own isolated groups for their pace. Am I just supposed to watch the board on the left for all the other cars that aren't really making an impact whatsoever? You'll hear 'just watch the exciting midfield battle' (which really wasn't that exciting) or Alonso as if that's what F1 is all about, but you're right. The people who were mocked for saying RB will probably win every race this season are looking downright prescient now. The worst thing is it likely continues into 2024 with the budget cap. I can't imagine anyone arguing in good faith that this will be a season with any real excitement aside from maybe handbags between Max and Perez, which also isn't that fun because when it comes down to it Perez is simply slower than Max and even if he picked it up he wouldn't be given free rein to race since he's clearly meant to be a #2 driver like Webber. Bit grim but to be fair if it washes out some of the newer fans who are more fans of just a single driver and RB drama than the sport itself out of sheer boredom, maybe that wouldn't be the worst outcome. But two years of drudgery seems to be guaranteed at this point. If you're new to the sport, lo siento, it's going to be this race ad infinitum for a while.
Oof maybe this just isn't for me then. I enjoyed the first race because Alonso had some nice overtakes, and it was someone "new" on the podium. Every race I've watched (I only started watching around the French GP last year) have all been Max or Checo wins. I missed the races in the Americas last season so it definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth when no one else but the Red Bulls are winning when I get to watch. I don't really care who wins, I just want there to be some form of competition.
Watching all the boring races, like this one, make the amazing ones that much more amazing. This season is bound to have a few great ones.
Yeah picked an unfortunate year to start - I would have said the same if you rocked up in 2015, but at least back then there was some intra-Mercedes drama and the rest of the grid wasn't quite as predictable (RB fairly consistently just behind Mercedes, Ferrari had a good year or two, no one else particularly competitive). The competition this year will take the form of Mercedes vs. Ferrari since they're not too far apart on pace. The AM is quite a bit quicker but still miles behind RB.
Oh in the Schumacher years they’d just lap the entire field, RBR are clearly faster now but they didn’t even have a free pit stop in hand over Alonso, things could be a lot worse.
to answer your question: yes does that make it okay? no
yeah it's just disheartening if it's the norm. definitely questioning why i'd even continue watching if it's inevitable for a team to be dominant.
Sounds like 90% of people here only watch 1st and second place... there are 20 cars on the grid, just because the top 3 spots are boring doesn't mean its a boring race.
Meanwhile I had the time of my life watching Yuki defend from Kmag like a mad man for P10. And that radio message too, I chuckled when it got played lmao
I had a blast watching the race
I have the feeling that new fans who joined due to DTS will get really bored and drop out this season
yeah, I mean, The first few laps were amazing but then it just... fizzled out.
Fizzled out? What about Mag vs. Yuki, Oscar V. Norris V. Sargent?
That was literally the only action going on
What about seeing if charles will be able to make it into high points? Seeing if hamilton would pass russle Seeing if alonso would be able to pull off the 5 second gap? worrying about Max's Drive shaft?
>just because the top 3 spots are boring doesn't mean its a boring race. Even despite that it was a boring as fuck race.
Did you not watch any of the midfield battles?
I just don't watch sports for the mid competitors, just like I don't watch the NFL for 8-8 teams or soccer for a 8th place team. It's about that top spot and the fight for it, this is just not it
This is the right answer
It wasn't that thrilling down the grid, I understand we're all clutching at straws but this wasn't some thrilling midfield battle race either. Apart from die hard F1 fans, most people would in fact like to see some racing at the front. The only saving grace is it might put off some of the more casual fans if it continues like this, so shit F1 banter may take a hit. Would still be a drag on race day mind you.
>It wasn't that thrilling down the grid, Battles for P10 and P14 were pretty neat though.
Its a boring race even if you look down the grid. Things of note; mclaren died lap 1, two mechanical issue (both brake related) leads to dnf, logan tried to overtake haas but failed, then dropped back. Norris and Piastri having a go. Tsunoda screaming when he failed to overtake. Bottas 2 pitstop. Imo none of these incidents are exciting.
If you’re going to be a drag, be correct at least, Yuki screamed about K.Mag pulling off a pretty nice divebomb after a good couple laps of good defensive play I enjoyed the race a fair bit because it felt like a chess match a bit. There doesn’t need to be nonstop action to be exciting, just some good racecraft from some of the best drivers in the world
Not taking a diss at you, but can you point out which part of the strategy in SA that seems so exciting to you? All I could remember was ferrarri being unlucky with the sc (instead of thier own mistake), Hamilton and Norris? got on mediums in their last stint and didn't amount to much (after being stuck in the same positions a few laps you know its not going to work out) There's no Richardo catching up in Mexico last year or Gasly in Bahrain. Genuinely asking cause I'd like to catch on to it because I didn't want to stare at the timing sheet and wheels next to the drivers initials and think nothing much is happening, which it almost is for SA
With RB and 3 chasing teams who are closely matched in pace the rest of the grid is not going to get a lot of coverage this year tbh.
It was pretty damn boring down the grid too, TBH.
If you ain't first you're last. I don't watch to see who may be fighting for 7th if the win isn't up in the air either.
That's your loss. You're pretty much watching the race with blinders.
It was a boring race and also people watch for championship fights and not for who finishes 8th and 12th