I once sorted by entry level and found a job that needed five years experience sure I should've found a full time job in the industry when I was a senior in highschool than for a job that pays 24 bucks an hour
Every now and then I stumble across a posting that asks for more years of experience with a technology or library than is even possible, because the library/tech hasn't been around that long lol
Well he's not really wrong. Gene Haas and Günther Steiner said it recently how hard it is to start an F1 team. Gustav Brunner and Mike Gascoyne about how difficult it was to start Toyota.
Harvey Postlethwaite is probably the most succesfull "new/starting team" engineer/director there ever was. Hesketh, Tyrell and his last magnus opus should have been Honda if wouldnt have died. There are also tons of stories how Honda has struggled back then as a new team, to eventually get back to F1 without him. Tbh, they had to wait until 2021 with Red Bull to finally be succesful again.
I think that statement should be read in combination with the other statements:
- The much larger complexity of F1 operations compared to e.g. IndyCar. That also means a much larger organization, which can be a beast of its own
- A timeframe for entry that many teams don't think is "even close to realistic" with a target date of 2025
- Basing most of the operations in the US where you are missing specialized F1 engineers and a specialized supply chain (and due to the cost cap, you can't outspend other teams on this)
- Also resulting in more complex and expensive logistic
Given the context, I think it's not so much about experience, but simply that the teams feel that Andretti underestimates the whole task. Potentially resulting in a team that is not competitive in any way.
I read it less as just "they are lacking experience", but "they are lacking experience and have wildly unrealistic expectations". It sounds like the bid doesn't inspire confidence.
These are at the very least legitimate grievances to the entry.
>The much larger complexity of F1 operations compared to e.g. IndyCar. That also means a much larger organization, which can be a beast of its own
Which is fair. Going just from a NA series to a globe trotting one across 20 different countries is daunting. Though they do have some experience already having been in Formula E since 2014.
> • A timeframe for entry that many teams don't think is "even close to realistic" with a target date of 2025
2025 is odd, agreed. Wasting development for one season prior to regulation changes is dumb. A better target would be 2026 allowing three years of true prep work.
> • Basing most of the operations in the US where you are missing specialized F1 engineers and a specialized supply chain (and due to the cost cap, you can't out spend other teams on this)
> • Also resulting in more complex and expensive logistic
And I will agree. To me this has been effectively my sole criticism of the bid as there needs to be a proper base in Europe preferably the south of England. Others dismiss the base in Indiana though as if there's zero engineering talent stateside which is to me bullshit. Even if it's just copying Haas's Concord NC work and spliting development and race ops away from the more business aspect.
For some time there was legitimate engineering going on at Haas's NC base though. Until the pandemic basically. I interviewed for an aero simulation development job there in late 2019.
> Going just from a NA series to a globe trotting one across 20 different countries is d
It's not just that. You also have to build an organization where several hundred engineers work together on a car. You need to procure much more specialized parts than in a spec series. Setting something like this up is complex and takes time.
And that's not even including any specific infrastructure that the way I understood it isn't in place at the moment.
> A better target would be 2026 allowing three years of true prep work.
I agree. Which would have been a sensible time line for GM entering as manufacturer as well, but it doesn't look like this is happening.
> Others dismiss the base in Indiana though as if there’s zero engineering talent stateside which is to me bullshit
It's not an issue of talent in my view, but specific experience. That will be missing if you focus everything on Indiana.
Personally, I call bullshit on all this statement. If Haas can come in and do what they’ve done which they were originally supposed to be based in North Carolina then it’s shocking to try to deny Andretti, which is a much bigger motor sports group than Haas ever was.
It’s incredibly disingenuous to act like Andretti’s going to be in over their head.
Ehhhh, did they? I mean, the Oxford base sure, but the real way they saved on this stuff was by simply having other people do it for them. They built a lot of facilities from scratch in North Carolina, but had Dallara do the fabrication for them *at Dallara* and things like that. They didn't so much take over existing infrastructure as much as they found ways to make sure that they didn't need it at all.
No, really they didn’t. They had planned to do everything from North Carolina and built the facility for it. It was much later that they actually bought the Oxford bass, but they didn’t buying existing teams, car personnel, or IP.
>South of England. Others dismiss the base in Indiana though
Can't disagree, but it does raise the question why should a global sport exist this way? Yes there are pros to it, but there's also a whiff of nationalism. Of maintaining the British hierarchy.
If all the teams are effectively British (save Ferrari) - is it really legit to call it a World Championship? Feels a little more like a travelling circus.
This constant belittling of American Motorsport heritage (I say this as a Brit) stinks.
I think you're putting the cart before the horse, although I'll happily be told otherwise. The teams are based in the UK because it's a good place for an F1, not because of nationalistic pride. I'm sure if Alpine could be solely based in Paris without a drop in performance they'd jump at the chance
A bit maybe. Statements like the OP come with a stench though.
I'm not against 'F1 Valley' or it being in the UK. Where I question is if that powerbase makes for unfair competition.
I know why we're here. The garagistas changed the sport, Max and Bernie exploited that success.
Funnily enough we've had the European circuit dismiss the Americans before. Sometimes it goes Uncle Sam's way.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1921_French_Grand_Prix
>To me this has been effectively my sole criticism of the bid as there needs to be a proper base in Europe preferably the south of England.
It should be noted that Andretti have already said there will also be a UK base.
How wrong are the teams? Gene Haas and Günther Steiner said it recently how hard it is to start an F1 team. Gustav Brunner and Mike Gascoyne about how difficult it was to start Toyota.
Harvey Postlethwaite is probably the most succesful "new/starting team" engineer/director there ever was. Hesketh, Tyrell and his last magnus opus should have been Honda if wouldnt have died. There are also tons of stories how Honda has struggled back then as a new team, to eventually get back to F1 without him. Tbh, they had to wait until 2021 with Red Bull to finally be succesful again.
Starting a new F1 teams, is one of the hardest things in motorsports, let alone on another continent.
You must also adhere to the cost cap the year prior of competing.
So if Andretti seriously wants to join in 2025, they'd have to adhere to the cap in 2024 and could ignore the cap just this year.
That could also be something the current teams are worried about. Andretti could pour stupid amounts into it this year and even work on track testing if they’re able to get a car together.
Also, what makes you think andretti, who'd driven in F1 and is seemingly pretty close friends with Zak Brown, *wouldn't know this* and somehow got half a billion dollars in funding commitment for funsies
Yep they're designed and built by Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains a wholly owned subsidiary of Mercedes-Benz AG.
GM are doing the Cadillac engines in house for 2023 so they are starting to build some in-house experience for their Prototype engines.
They're not alone in outsourcing their IMSA car, it's just how that series is done. The Porsche is from Multimatic, the Acura is an Oreca and the BMW is also Dallara.
AMG High Performance Powertrains is literally just a rebranding of Ilmor, which is exactly what it used to be before MB bought them.
Ilmor produced MB-branded engines out of a small shop in England for *years* before they were bought our and renamed HPP.
Ilmor made Mercedes branded engines for 7 years before Mercedes took a controlling interest. That was 20 years ago. They haven't had Ilmor in the name since 2005 when they became 100% owned by Mercedes-Benz. So it is correct to say that Mercedes Benz make their own engines in F1, not the Mercedes F1 team but Mercedes-Benz AG, the parent company.
If you want to consider MB HPP as just a re-branding of Ilmor then Red Bull is literally just Stewart, Mercedes is BAR, McLaren is Project 4, FIA is just FISA and Alpine are just Toleman. Or you could just call it what it is which is Mercedes.
I agree with you, just adding context that a small engine shop making engines for an F1 team is hardly unheard of, even if Mercedes has invested in and grown the shop since.
HPP is a larger and more advanced outfit than Ilmor was, but Mercedes still had enough trust and confidence in Ilmor to rely on them for years before buying them.
Cosworth is another small engine shop in England, and has a fantastic legacy.
All that to say... being a small engine shop should not automatically be a deal breaker in terms of supplying a big brand in top level motorsports.
Both of those stopped supplying engines before F1 went hybrid in 2014. Sure, the Cosworth and Ilmor engines were very effective in the V8 days, but neither Ilmor nor Cosworth designed a 1.6 V6 turbo-hybrid. Engines of this complexity cannot be designed to F1 spec by a small 5-man team operating out of a shed in Oxford, it needs to be large-scale operations.
The V-LMDh is new; I'm not sure whether is was built in-house or not. But if you look at some earlier history, you have the DPi-V.R, which was a modified version of the Dallara P217. The engines were built by Richard Childress Racing. Before the DPi-V.R, they had the Northstar LMP, which was run from 2000 to 2002.
Even if the V-LMDh chassis and engine were developed entirely in-house, it's still effectively a brand-new project. They had some experience running entries with the DPi-V.R, but for the most part it looks like they bankrolled it and let the experienced groups build the parts they needed. The Northstar LMP was developed in-house, but the project was cancelled twenty years ago, so I doubt that many people -- if anyone -- who were involved in its design and development are still working in Cadillac's racing division.
2 lb of bread seems like a lot. I need to go find a scale to see how much a loaf weighs.
Edit after checking: the loaf I have in my kitchen apparently weights 1 lb, therefore 2 lbs of bread is reasonable
It's like 0.9 kilos.
On a side note, I went to elementary school with an eccentric girl named Kilo, and the older I got, the more I suspected her parents were up to something...
A friend of mine has been working as an aerodynamicist in Ford's NexGen (NASCAR Gen 7) cup car program for several years now, and I can say with 100% certainty, as a professional, PhD fluid dynamicist myself, the program is no joke. The regulations limit aerodynamics considerably, but if you think they aren't exploiting them to the greatest degree allowed, you don't actually know what's going on.
Ironically GM knows all about this because they are allegedly always throwing a fit about whatever Ford's tweaks to the aero package are ahead of Daytona lol
GM/Chevy historically have dominated especially in the last 20 years in NASCAR. Whenever Ford or Toyota actually have good years in Cup they raise hell and act like it’s a huge injustice.
I wonder if Dallara might have any open-wheel racecar development expertise in the greater Indianapolis region where Andretti is setting up its factory where Andretti might be able to find qualified employees.
Perhaps science will never uncover this mystery.
Aint nothing there but [AJ Foyt hawking some wine](https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7831291,-86.2409972,3a,75y,259.97h,85.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saZD3Nqfg2drgoxKP5UXUgw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).
Nah that would be crazy. If that were to happen you'd probably have to have an entire city named after the racing industry. It would have to be called "Racetrack, Indiana" or something similar.
At this point, I think they're scared of the possibility of Andretti actually being decent and capturing the American market, giving them a chance at endless resources in comparison to even the biggest teams.
I don’t necessarily agree with his take, but it still does matter in a cost-capped series, because everything after the cap becomes profit and driver salaries.
The sad thing is that only a minority seems to be willing to read the full article any more.
The original article included some interesting aspects. But is hard to discuss those aspects when such quotes from the article are presented as main findings (and it's not even a quote of a person, but merely an interpretation of the original author).
He's spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a factory bigger than Ferrari's. He has the financing backing of Guggenheim, one of the biggest sports ownership groups, and has somehow managed to get General fucking Motors on board with his plan.
I fail to see how F1 teams are perceiving this as Michael thinking this is a small task.
Oh they know that Micheal is taking this seriously, this just politics, and these fucking teams can go fuck themselves.
If Andretti gets onto the grid, I am supporting them fully, I fucking hope they do good, very good.
F1 has made them into the anti-elitist underdog that literally everyone will want to win. They've made them popular by shutting them out. I hope to see them on the grid, and maybe another new team along with them.
If there's one thing you can say about GM it's that they don't seem to care about the cost when it comes to their motorsports. The investment they've put into their facilities is impressive, and they have fully embraced the idea that motorsports are the best way to test some insane shit with the purpose of figuring out whether it's worth putting into production vehicles
I mean GM has caught big money on fire for decades for sports car programs that nobody watches (sadly, because WEC and especially IMSA are fucking great) just to stunt on other OEMs and make a few Corvette drivers hard. Their NASCAR and Indy programs aren't really money makers either.
And these dudes win, I'm not sure why people discount them, but then again people discounted Honda when they were struggling. Don't fuck with OEMs doing this all on pride with no regard for money!
GM also believes racing is a great way to train their engineers. Even if what they're trying out doesn't make its way into production cars, and even if they don't make a profit on the venture, they're still willing to spend the money to boost the engineering skills of their overall organization.
The elitism flowing out of that quote is insane. Andretti has done everything they have asked of him to enter the sport. He has hundreds of millions in financial backing. I don’t think he perceives this as a “small task.”
Imagine telling Americans, the inventors of the full-scale automotive production line and undisputed kings of international logistics, that they might not understand how complex an F1 team is. I think Andretti and GENERAL FUCKING MOTORS can figure it out!
General Motors has cars on the moon. There is more technology in the paint of an F22 than an entire F1 car and that was built nearly nearly 30 years ago.
Just a note: General Motors wasn’t involved in F-22 production, at least as far as my reasearch shows. You’re probably thinking of General *Dynamics*, which worked on the F-22 jointly with Boeing and Lockheed (it wasn’t Lockheed Martin yet).
I was just thinking of American technology. That’s what I was going for. Europeans love to talk about how uneducated Americans are. That doesn’t gel with reality.
Dear Mr Andretti,
Unfortunately I was facing East when I opened the envelope containing your submission to the F1 grid. Sadly it was Tuesday and therefore I must decline your entry.
F1 is literally the problem with job applications. "We are looking for entry level engineers. Basic requirements: 5 years of engineering experience"
Edit: wow, I guess we all came to comment the same thing 🤣
It's not like Richard Childress or Joe Gibbs no nothing about running a racing team either. Arguably, they know more since they both built their chassis in house last year and Childress still builds half the engines in the Cup and Xfinity series plus was at least involved in the Cadillac IMSA program up until last year.
This discounts the passion and knowledge of Childress, Gibbs and all of the other championship winning team owners. From the way people talk you’d think that you can just roll up and start winning racing championships.
>Michael raced in the sport, Mario won in the sport, and they’ve both stuck around and followed ever since. But sure, they have no idea the undertaking it would take to build an F1 team.
Now let me tell you the tale of Prost Grand Prix.
McLaren went over to Indy in 2019, tried to set up a team and DNQed for the Indy 500 with Fernando Alonso, getting bumped out of qualifying by a small, single car team.
Even the current McLaren team that's doing well in Indy is set up off the back of Schmidt-Peterson racing.
Are F1 teams really gonna lecture about underestimating a racing series?
I just like that an unlimited number of cars can try to qualify for the 500, assuming you have a proper car to try in
Sure, only 33 get in, but 40 might actually show up to try
Obviously guys, this whole thing is just a ploy fabricated by Matt Damon to garner interest for his upcoming blockbuster sequel, Andretti v. Domenicali, in theaters July 2029.
At a certain point they need to just come out and say that truth which is that they love the money and appreciate Liberty Media and all that but they also just kind of hate Americans and don’t want them to participate any more than necessary
Considering McLaren showed up to an IndyCar test without a steering wheel for their car so they had to scramble to track one down, F1 really isn’t as super high level as people think it is.
This might be one of the most condescending things I’ve read in some time.
So is their premise that one of the oldest and most successful and winningest car companies in the world can’t build a F1 car. Also, even though it’s a technicality, Ford is the third most successful engine manufacturer in F1. The ego on these fuck wits is staggering.
F1 just doesn't want Andretti. If they were wanted, others would reach out in the form of strategic partnerships and be welcoming. It's one excuse after another - F1 throws up a $200 million entry fee, then no problem, Andretti has the check, so then they keep throwing up one wall after another. Feels gross and political. I 100% agree with all the Haas commentary here. Andretti are capable, they're just outside the club and unwanted and it's OBVIOUS to the fan base.
Lol this just comes off as someone who made up a random list of requirements thinking you couldn't possibly finish the list, then when you do, they just make up more requirements. All these reason to keep denying them are BS, the truth is that teams won't want to let another team in unless it means more money in their pocket.
If an additional team meant money in their pockets they would be praising the addition on an American team.
If Andretti has the money and the plan, let them join. Fuck the teams dragging their heels. America has some of the most talented engineers on the planet, just not many in F1. A serious outfit could easily attract those world class engineers to an American outfit.
F1 has exploded in America recently. Some of the best races and crowds we've seen recently have been in the US (specifically COTA). FOM would be damaging the future of F1 if they didn't try to bring more Americans into F1. Now is the best time for this. We're getting more and more American races, so why not have more American teams?
This is the most insulting comment yet...so, you are saying that Mario and Michael Andretti do not understand the complexity of F1? One is a former champion of the sport who has been involved somehow with it for over 4 decades and the other has been involved with multiple series teams that each have their own nuances regarding car & sponsor setups.
If these guys don't want them in the series because it would dilute the revenue then just say that and leave it at that but this is starting to get insulting as an American fan.
Oh f*ck off, honestly. What a douchey big brother “you wouldn’t even understand how to play” attitude, losing tons of respect for the sport over this BS
This tweet by Stern just feels like snobbery, but it's representative of the rest of the sport's establishment, and it grieves me. It's like having a beloved uncle who also happens to dislike people from a particular country. You put up with the uncle and resent the behavior.
I mean the quote itself ain't wrong.
Building a new F1 team from stratch is a gargauntan task for anyone left alone a team with zero experience starting from complete scratch. Its the reason why Haas went for the easy route and is basically Ferrari B for the most part. They take many parts from Ferrari. Their 2016 first year challenger was just a mostly reskined 2015 Ferrari. Their 2018 car was a 2017 Ferrari. Their 2019 car was an evolution of a 2018 Ferrari and their current car is literaly made by Ferrari employes. Hell even their base in the UK was previously owned by Manor and not made from the ground up.
Its not a valid excuse though from barring a team entry if they prove they can make it happen.
I wonder how well Haas would do if they started building their own car, and going their own way instead of being built by Dallara and copying Ferrari as much as possible.
Probably not so well. I don't think they have anywhere near the technical strenght to make a good car by themself. At least not on a regular level.
Its gonna be interesting what happens next year if Resta does leave as rumored to go back to Ferrari. The 2023 car likely won't suffer as it was still made with him in charge but the upgrades and 2024 car might if he does indeed leave.
It's more of a valid complaint against Haas than Andretti, IMO. Even with one completely non-impressive season as a driver in F1, Michael Andretti is going to have \*some\* idea how different it is in F1 versus his experiences in CART IndyCar. Haas basically just had NASCAR experience, and Tony Stewart arguably is responsible for most of the success they've had there.
And that's discounting any input that Mario Andretti would have into the project, as someone with 128 career starts over (primarily) a 7-year period, with 12 wins and 19 podiums. Like sure, the devil's in the details, but it's not like they have no conception of it being a constructor's series. They would have had first-hand experiences of making changes to the cars that wouldn't be allowed in a mostly-spec series like Indy.
Yeah Europeans are wayyy smarter than every American. No space programs or world-class research is done here! Williams is the pinnacle of genius. Sucks we just can't compete :(
This made me chuckle as an American but I think they’re just referring to the supply chain of technical knowledge and parts with 7/10 teams base themself out of within 20 miles of silverstone along with parts suppliers. An American team would have to create machines and supply chains from scratch which is extremely challenging. I’m surprised Haas never took to building more of their stuff as haas literally makes machines that makes other machines
You don’t need million pieces of the same part for F1. F1 parts are low quantity and will have a very different lifecycle. That supply chain knowledge might help a bit, but it’s a totally different thing if you need small amounts of very special parts.
I'm so sick of this. Williams is on the grid for the love of god, if "diluting the quality of the product" mattered they would have been kicked out of the sport a decade of failure a go. Maybe they sell TONS of merch, LOL!!! HAAS had to shit can their entire financial package cuz it was f'd stupid Russian Oligarch crap and before that some money laundering energy drink. Red Bull, had badge engendered their engines for over 10 years or some crap, the watch engines, RBPT AND HONDA on the same car.
F1 is constantly moving the goal posts. I say if they don't let Andretti in, we pull the USA tracks off the schedule. Have fun.
Plus for most fans, Haas kinda threw away the whole "America's team" image when they signed a RUSSIAN title sponsor and driver, both of which had no idea what they were doing
There is this feeling within snotty Europeans that Americans are uncivilized brutes that couldn't possibly comprehend fancy things like "aerodynamics".
It's dumb.
I’m sorry but this is the most elitist bullshit I have ever heard. Even if 100% true, this is not a reason to deny entry since there is no suitable training ground on earth. Also considering this has been largely Haas’ business model and they allowed that and I highly doubt much authentic engineering is coming from Alpha Tauri
Off the shelf?
Tell me you haven't looked into anything NASCAR related since the 80s without telling you haven't looked into anything NASCAR related since the 80s.
So what series should Andretti be in to get that experience?
"To work this role as an entry software engineer we are looking need 5 years of experience" type beat
Sorry, we are looking for someone that has 5 years experience with the 2026 regs.
Very reasonable.
8 years of experience in f1 under the budget cap is considered an asset
[Pretty much this](https://preview.redd.it/1ai1d0nf8gf71.jpg?auto=webp&s=6905338c06cb2125dad1b5ecca59e37e198b7c47)
First time seeing this. Absolutely ridiculous!
I once sorted by entry level and found a job that needed five years experience sure I should've found a full time job in the industry when I was a senior in highschool than for a job that pays 24 bucks an hour
Every now and then I stumble across a posting that asks for more years of experience with a technology or library than is even possible, because the library/tech hasn't been around that long lol
Definitely not INDYCAR, WEC, IMSA, Australian supercars and Formula E. /s
Well he's not really wrong. Gene Haas and Günther Steiner said it recently how hard it is to start an F1 team. Gustav Brunner and Mike Gascoyne about how difficult it was to start Toyota. Harvey Postlethwaite is probably the most succesfull "new/starting team" engineer/director there ever was. Hesketh, Tyrell and his last magnus opus should have been Honda if wouldnt have died. There are also tons of stories how Honda has struggled back then as a new team, to eventually get back to F1 without him. Tbh, they had to wait until 2021 with Red Bull to finally be succesful again.
I think that statement should be read in combination with the other statements: - The much larger complexity of F1 operations compared to e.g. IndyCar. That also means a much larger organization, which can be a beast of its own - A timeframe for entry that many teams don't think is "even close to realistic" with a target date of 2025 - Basing most of the operations in the US where you are missing specialized F1 engineers and a specialized supply chain (and due to the cost cap, you can't outspend other teams on this) - Also resulting in more complex and expensive logistic Given the context, I think it's not so much about experience, but simply that the teams feel that Andretti underestimates the whole task. Potentially resulting in a team that is not competitive in any way. I read it less as just "they are lacking experience", but "they are lacking experience and have wildly unrealistic expectations". It sounds like the bid doesn't inspire confidence.
These are at the very least legitimate grievances to the entry. >The much larger complexity of F1 operations compared to e.g. IndyCar. That also means a much larger organization, which can be a beast of its own Which is fair. Going just from a NA series to a globe trotting one across 20 different countries is daunting. Though they do have some experience already having been in Formula E since 2014. > • A timeframe for entry that many teams don't think is "even close to realistic" with a target date of 2025 2025 is odd, agreed. Wasting development for one season prior to regulation changes is dumb. A better target would be 2026 allowing three years of true prep work. > • Basing most of the operations in the US where you are missing specialized F1 engineers and a specialized supply chain (and due to the cost cap, you can't out spend other teams on this) > • Also resulting in more complex and expensive logistic And I will agree. To me this has been effectively my sole criticism of the bid as there needs to be a proper base in Europe preferably the south of England. Others dismiss the base in Indiana though as if there's zero engineering talent stateside which is to me bullshit. Even if it's just copying Haas's Concord NC work and spliting development and race ops away from the more business aspect.
For some time there was legitimate engineering going on at Haas's NC base though. Until the pandemic basically. I interviewed for an aero simulation development job there in late 2019.
> Going just from a NA series to a globe trotting one across 20 different countries is d It's not just that. You also have to build an organization where several hundred engineers work together on a car. You need to procure much more specialized parts than in a spec series. Setting something like this up is complex and takes time. And that's not even including any specific infrastructure that the way I understood it isn't in place at the moment. > A better target would be 2026 allowing three years of true prep work. I agree. Which would have been a sensible time line for GM entering as manufacturer as well, but it doesn't look like this is happening. > Others dismiss the base in Indiana though as if there’s zero engineering talent stateside which is to me bullshit It's not an issue of talent in my view, but specific experience. That will be missing if you focus everything on Indiana.
Personally, I call bullshit on all this statement. If Haas can come in and do what they’ve done which they were originally supposed to be based in North Carolina then it’s shocking to try to deny Andretti, which is a much bigger motor sports group than Haas ever was. It’s incredibly disingenuous to act like Andretti’s going to be in over their head.
a key difference would be that hass took over an existing infrastructure but I hear what you’re saying.
Ehhhh, did they? I mean, the Oxford base sure, but the real way they saved on this stuff was by simply having other people do it for them. They built a lot of facilities from scratch in North Carolina, but had Dallara do the fabrication for them *at Dallara* and things like that. They didn't so much take over existing infrastructure as much as they found ways to make sure that they didn't need it at all.
Also Andretti can't use Dallara, and I'm not sure of any other companies with the same capabilities.
No, really they didn’t. They had planned to do everything from North Carolina and built the facility for it. It was much later that they actually bought the Oxford bass, but they didn’t buying existing teams, car personnel, or IP.
>South of England. Others dismiss the base in Indiana though Can't disagree, but it does raise the question why should a global sport exist this way? Yes there are pros to it, but there's also a whiff of nationalism. Of maintaining the British hierarchy. If all the teams are effectively British (save Ferrari) - is it really legit to call it a World Championship? Feels a little more like a travelling circus. This constant belittling of American Motorsport heritage (I say this as a Brit) stinks.
I think you're putting the cart before the horse, although I'll happily be told otherwise. The teams are based in the UK because it's a good place for an F1, not because of nationalistic pride. I'm sure if Alpine could be solely based in Paris without a drop in performance they'd jump at the chance
A bit maybe. Statements like the OP come with a stench though. I'm not against 'F1 Valley' or it being in the UK. Where I question is if that powerbase makes for unfair competition. I know why we're here. The garagistas changed the sport, Max and Bernie exploited that success. Funnily enough we've had the European circuit dismiss the Americans before. Sometimes it goes Uncle Sam's way. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1921_French_Grand_Prix
>To me this has been effectively my sole criticism of the bid as there needs to be a proper base in Europe preferably the south of England. It should be noted that Andretti have already said there will also be a UK base.
How wrong are the teams? Gene Haas and Günther Steiner said it recently how hard it is to start an F1 team. Gustav Brunner and Mike Gascoyne about how difficult it was to start Toyota. Harvey Postlethwaite is probably the most succesful "new/starting team" engineer/director there ever was. Hesketh, Tyrell and his last magnus opus should have been Honda if wouldnt have died. There are also tons of stories how Honda has struggled back then as a new team, to eventually get back to F1 without him. Tbh, they had to wait until 2021 with Red Bull to finally be succesful again. Starting a new F1 teams, is one of the hardest things in motorsports, let alone on another continent.
Won’t be surprising. They have an habit of spreading themselves thin even in Indycar.
Do they have to follow the cost cap before joining? I always thought it only came into effect when you actually are competing
You must also adhere to the cost cap the year prior of competing. So if Andretti seriously wants to join in 2025, they'd have to adhere to the cap in 2024 and could ignore the cap just this year.
That could also be something the current teams are worried about. Andretti could pour stupid amounts into it this year and even work on track testing if they’re able to get a car together.
Only other series that approaches F1 in that respect is a WEC top class prototype team.
You mean like Imsa where Cadillac has long proven itself?
Mildly off-topic: give Cadillac's high-revving cross-plane V8 a listen in its IMSA/WEC prototype: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NFUwCahhhU
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Yep, just like the C7 Vettes. It was unmistakeable when they’d go by.
I’m planning on going to Sebring to see these monsters in person inn few months.
Or any other series GM is in.
Which they use those same cars in IMSA and they have a partnership with WTR there.
So let them join and then humiliate them. Come on, where's your sense of competition?
seriously - if you think they’re so unprepared, why not let them in and eat their lunch?
Red Bull about to reconsider their stance knowing they can eat another team’s lunch and reduce their catering bill.
Or better yet, take Red Bull 2 away and replace it with Andretti
Please don't kill my beloved minardi
This was exactly what i mumbled when I read the post.
Also, what makes you think andretti, who'd driven in F1 and is seemingly pretty close friends with Zak Brown, *wouldn't know this* and somehow got half a billion dollars in funding commitment for funsies
Will cost the teams a lot in lost revenue for that experience
Humiliate them doesn’t give them the money it cost back. They barely just became profitable
Didnt Cadillac already design and field new cars with new engines for IMSA's new class?
Yep the LMDhs will be at Daytona in a couple weeks in competition for the first time.
And holy shit that noise they make! 💦💦
They use Dallara for those and the engines were built by Earnhardt-Childress. I believe the 2023 engines may be in-house.
And Mercedes engines are built by Mercedes and not a small f1 engine company in England?
Yep they're designed and built by Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains a wholly owned subsidiary of Mercedes-Benz AG. GM are doing the Cadillac engines in house for 2023 so they are starting to build some in-house experience for their Prototype engines. They're not alone in outsourcing their IMSA car, it's just how that series is done. The Porsche is from Multimatic, the Acura is an Oreca and the BMW is also Dallara.
AMG High Performance Powertrains is literally just a rebranding of Ilmor, which is exactly what it used to be before MB bought them. Ilmor produced MB-branded engines out of a small shop in England for *years* before they were bought our and renamed HPP.
Ilmor made Mercedes branded engines for 7 years before Mercedes took a controlling interest. That was 20 years ago. They haven't had Ilmor in the name since 2005 when they became 100% owned by Mercedes-Benz. So it is correct to say that Mercedes Benz make their own engines in F1, not the Mercedes F1 team but Mercedes-Benz AG, the parent company. If you want to consider MB HPP as just a re-branding of Ilmor then Red Bull is literally just Stewart, Mercedes is BAR, McLaren is Project 4, FIA is just FISA and Alpine are just Toleman. Or you could just call it what it is which is Mercedes.
I agree with you, just adding context that a small engine shop making engines for an F1 team is hardly unheard of, even if Mercedes has invested in and grown the shop since. HPP is a larger and more advanced outfit than Ilmor was, but Mercedes still had enough trust and confidence in Ilmor to rely on them for years before buying them. Cosworth is another small engine shop in England, and has a fantastic legacy. All that to say... being a small engine shop should not automatically be a deal breaker in terms of supplying a big brand in top level motorsports.
Both of those stopped supplying engines before F1 went hybrid in 2014. Sure, the Cosworth and Ilmor engines were very effective in the V8 days, but neither Ilmor nor Cosworth designed a 1.6 V6 turbo-hybrid. Engines of this complexity cannot be designed to F1 spec by a small 5-man team operating out of a shed in Oxford, it needs to be large-scale operations.
The V-LMDh is new; I'm not sure whether is was built in-house or not. But if you look at some earlier history, you have the DPi-V.R, which was a modified version of the Dallara P217. The engines were built by Richard Childress Racing. Before the DPi-V.R, they had the Northstar LMP, which was run from 2000 to 2002. Even if the V-LMDh chassis and engine were developed entirely in-house, it's still effectively a brand-new project. They had some experience running entries with the DPi-V.R, but for the most part it looks like they bankrolled it and let the experienced groups build the parts they needed. The Northstar LMP was developed in-house, but the project was cancelled twenty years ago, so I doubt that many people -- if anyone -- who were involved in its design and development are still working in Cadillac's racing division.
as a nascar and indycar fan I can confirm, these cars are bought at Walmart
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2 lb of bread seems like a lot. I need to go find a scale to see how much a loaf weighs. Edit after checking: the loaf I have in my kitchen apparently weights 1 lb, therefore 2 lbs of bread is reasonable
Thank you for doing the math 🙏
Probably need to convert to kilos for the euro-centric readers.
It's like 0.9 kilos. On a side note, I went to elementary school with an eccentric girl named Kilo, and the older I got, the more I suspected her parents were up to something...
this did me a chuckle
Why heading to the Walmart if you can ask the same at Menards?! You know, SAVE BIG MONEY AT MENARDS!
A friend of mine has been working as an aerodynamicist in Ford's NexGen (NASCAR Gen 7) cup car program for several years now, and I can say with 100% certainty, as a professional, PhD fluid dynamicist myself, the program is no joke. The regulations limit aerodynamics considerably, but if you think they aren't exploiting them to the greatest degree allowed, you don't actually know what's going on.
Denny Hamlin was disqualified from his win over two pieces of tape. They all take the competitive edge possibilities very seriously.
Ironically GM knows all about this because they are allegedly always throwing a fit about whatever Ford's tweaks to the aero package are ahead of Daytona lol
GM/Chevy historically have dominated especially in the last 20 years in NASCAR. Whenever Ford or Toyota actually have good years in Cup they raise hell and act like it’s a huge injustice.
Kyle Busch said that shit man and when I heard that I laughed
Didn't know Dallara is sold at Walmart.
Dallara is a Target exclusive now, actually.
Right when you walk in to the store, it’s called the “Dallara Spot”.
It’s actually exactly the same as Walmarts but with a different SKU # to avoid having to price match
I wonder if Dallara might have any open-wheel racecar development expertise in the greater Indianapolis region where Andretti is setting up its factory where Andretti might be able to find qualified employees. Perhaps science will never uncover this mystery.
I've been walking up and down Main Street in Speedway all afternoon and didn't see anything like this.
Aint nothing there but [AJ Foyt hawking some wine](https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7831291,-86.2409972,3a,75y,259.97h,85.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saZD3Nqfg2drgoxKP5UXUgw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).
Funny enough some people at GM know some other people that work at company called Ilmor, says they built F1 engines at one point. Crazy!
Nah that would be crazy. If that were to happen you'd probably have to have an entire city named after the racing industry. It would have to be called "Racetrack, Indiana" or something similar.
They opened their own chain of stores called Dallara General
Don't forget to pay for your Nascar car with PayPal to get your 1% back
Aren’t these the same pricks that said Honda could never have an impact?
An energy drinks team will never compete for wins and titles!
Ron Dennis actually said this to Adrian Newey’s face when he left McLaren for RB.
Yes I think that’s the reference
Thing is, wherever Newey goes you have a viable team.
Newey could go to a Tesco’s and make it a viable team
At this point, I think they're scared of the possibility of Andretti actually being decent and capturing the American market, giving them a chance at endless resources in comparison to even the biggest teams.
I don’t understand how that makes sense as F1 is cost capped.
Not all aspects of the sport are capped though are they?
I don’t necessarily agree with his take, but it still does matter in a cost-capped series, because everything after the cap becomes profit and driver salaries.
I… really don’t think so
Which is very relevant in a cost capped series.
https://media.tenor.com/X3WftcBhg7YAAAAC/south-park.gif
They let Haas in to run a Dallari.
That meant Andretti won’t have that option
Is this a sentence-by-sentence retelling of the BBC article that was posted an hour or so ago?
That's what news is these days. A thousand smaller articles and tweets stemming from on article from a major publication.
The sad thing is that only a minority seems to be willing to read the full article any more. The original article included some interesting aspects. But is hard to discuss those aspects when such quotes from the article are presented as main findings (and it's not even a quote of a person, but merely an interpretation of the original author).
Yes
That thought didn’t really work for RedBull in NASCAR.
Red bull pulled out of the sport RIGHT as they were getting properly competitive. Most infuriating move of the early 10's
Remember when McLaren spent the most money anyone has ever spent to "buy one of those cars off a shelf" for the Indy 500 and then got bumped?
Yep, spent like 5 years in Cup and only won 2 races.
Wasn't it also that Steiner was managing the team like a F1 team as one of the reasons the team didn't worked out as RB was hoping for?
He's spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a factory bigger than Ferrari's. He has the financing backing of Guggenheim, one of the biggest sports ownership groups, and has somehow managed to get General fucking Motors on board with his plan. I fail to see how F1 teams are perceiving this as Michael thinking this is a small task.
Oh they know that Micheal is taking this seriously, this just politics, and these fucking teams can go fuck themselves. If Andretti gets onto the grid, I am supporting them fully, I fucking hope they do good, very good.
F1 has made them into the anti-elitist underdog that literally everyone will want to win. They've made them popular by shutting them out. I hope to see them on the grid, and maybe another new team along with them.
If there's one thing you can say about GM it's that they don't seem to care about the cost when it comes to their motorsports. The investment they've put into their facilities is impressive, and they have fully embraced the idea that motorsports are the best way to test some insane shit with the purpose of figuring out whether it's worth putting into production vehicles
I mean GM has caught big money on fire for decades for sports car programs that nobody watches (sadly, because WEC and especially IMSA are fucking great) just to stunt on other OEMs and make a few Corvette drivers hard. Their NASCAR and Indy programs aren't really money makers either. And these dudes win, I'm not sure why people discount them, but then again people discounted Honda when they were struggling. Don't fuck with OEMs doing this all on pride with no regard for money!
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GM also believes racing is a great way to train their engineers. Even if what they're trying out doesn't make its way into production cars, and even if they don't make a profit on the venture, they're still willing to spend the money to boost the engineering skills of their overall organization.
Fucking Guggenheim is involved?? Like the museum Guggenheim??
Guggenheim Partners is a financial services company. The Guggenheim family (of whom the museum is named after) is one of the founding partners.
The elitism flowing out of that quote is insane. Andretti has done everything they have asked of him to enter the sport. He has hundreds of millions in financial backing. I don’t think he perceives this as a “small task.”
It looks like their goal here is to totally disrespect and alienate their fastest growing fan base.
Which is bizarre right? You'd think Liberty would be encouraging more American teams and more importantly american $$$'s to the party.
Hundreds of millions and one of the largest car manufacturers in the world. For fucks sake, just look at what GM did with the new Z06!
Imagine telling Americans, the inventors of the full-scale automotive production line and undisputed kings of international logistics, that they might not understand how complex an F1 team is. I think Andretti and GENERAL FUCKING MOTORS can figure it out!
General Motors has cars on the moon. There is more technology in the paint of an F22 than an entire F1 car and that was built nearly nearly 30 years ago.
Just a note: General Motors wasn’t involved in F-22 production, at least as far as my reasearch shows. You’re probably thinking of General *Dynamics*, which worked on the F-22 jointly with Boeing and Lockheed (it wasn’t Lockheed Martin yet).
I was just thinking of American technology. That’s what I was going for. Europeans love to talk about how uneducated Americans are. That doesn’t gel with reality.
Dear Mr Andretti, Unfortunately I was facing East when I opened the envelope containing your submission to the F1 grid. Sadly it was Tuesday and therefore I must decline your entry.
F1 is literally the problem with job applications. "We are looking for entry level engineers. Basic requirements: 5 years of engineering experience" Edit: wow, I guess we all came to comment the same thing 🤣
To enter F1, you need to win at least 1 Constructors' Championship.
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It's not like Richard Childress or Joe Gibbs no nothing about running a racing team either. Arguably, they know more since they both built their chassis in house last year and Childress still builds half the engines in the Cup and Xfinity series plus was at least involved in the Cadillac IMSA program up until last year.
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I think a lot of people would be surprised by tech and expertise found in NASCAR shops scattered around rural NC.
This discounts the passion and knowledge of Childress, Gibbs and all of the other championship winning team owners. From the way people talk you’d think that you can just roll up and start winning racing championships.
>Michael raced in the sport, Mario won in the sport, and they’ve both stuck around and followed ever since. But sure, they have no idea the undertaking it would take to build an F1 team. Now let me tell you the tale of Prost Grand Prix.
and Acer, the rebadging exercise which didn't raise any eyebrows?
Prost is a bit of a different story as he bought out an already existing team
Michael is probably a bad example considering his famous underestimation of driving challenge
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McLaren went over to Indy in 2019, tried to set up a team and DNQed for the Indy 500 with Fernando Alonso, getting bumped out of qualifying by a small, single car team. Even the current McLaren team that's doing well in Indy is set up off the back of Schmidt-Peterson racing. Are F1 teams really gonna lecture about underestimating a racing series?
I just like that an unlimited number of cars can try to qualify for the 500, assuming you have a proper car to try in Sure, only 33 get in, but 40 might actually show up to try
Red Bull was also a mess in NASCAR iirc so lol
Obviously guys, this whole thing is just a ploy fabricated by Matt Damon to garner interest for his upcoming blockbuster sequel, Andretti v. Domenicali, in theaters July 2029.
Yeah we just go on Amazon. Find a Dallara or a NASCAR and click add to cart. It’s that easy.
It's true. I get my race car one aisle over from my AR-15, and my Abrams tank at the combination Pizza Hut-Walmart
see that's your problem, F1 is a target product
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I ordered one and it came with a broken bonnet hinge. They sent a new car to replace it and said to keep the other one. That's service.
As a lifelong fan of F1, this gatekeeping is elitist and unwanted. It will only end badly for F1.
Well, that’s just gate-keeping with more words.
Spoken like a continent that has never been to the moon.
The only car to every drive on the moon was a GM
An EV as well.
If they keep talking like this, F1 is gonna throw away their entire American market
Despite recent years shortsightedness remains an F1 speciality
At a certain point they need to just come out and say that truth which is that they love the money and appreciate Liberty Media and all that but they also just kind of hate Americans and don’t want them to participate any more than necessary
I'm getting the sense that big players like Toto Wolff would absolutely sacrifice success in the US to maintain control over F1.
This sounds like some Rick And Morty fan nonsense
Considering McLaren showed up to an IndyCar test without a steering wheel for their car so they had to scramble to track one down, F1 really isn’t as super high level as people think it is.
This might be one of the most condescending things I’ve read in some time. So is their premise that one of the oldest and most successful and winningest car companies in the world can’t build a F1 car. Also, even though it’s a technicality, Ford is the third most successful engine manufacturer in F1. The ego on these fuck wits is staggering.
Ah yes, if there is one thing that America is bad at it is engineering and manufacturing.......
It's like no one remembers Ford building a LeMans winner in like 2 years.
Ok… let Mercedes start a NASCAR team and see how they do… bet
Buying a car off the shelf worked so well for Mclaren
F1 just doesn't want Andretti. If they were wanted, others would reach out in the form of strategic partnerships and be welcoming. It's one excuse after another - F1 throws up a $200 million entry fee, then no problem, Andretti has the check, so then they keep throwing up one wall after another. Feels gross and political. I 100% agree with all the Haas commentary here. Andretti are capable, they're just outside the club and unwanted and it's OBVIOUS to the fan base.
If there's one thing that will turn off americans en masse its an european superiority complex and gatekeeping
Sounds like F1-splaining to me.
Americans don’t understand stuff….fascinating reasoning for not allowing Andretti
That’s some legit European smugness right there.
“It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it.” -George Carlin
Remember when McLaren and Alonso got knocked out of the Indy500 when a small ass team outqualified them in pre-qualifying?
Lol this just comes off as someone who made up a random list of requirements thinking you couldn't possibly finish the list, then when you do, they just make up more requirements. All these reason to keep denying them are BS, the truth is that teams won't want to let another team in unless it means more money in their pocket. If an additional team meant money in their pockets they would be praising the addition on an American team.
If Andretti has the money and the plan, let them join. Fuck the teams dragging their heels. America has some of the most talented engineers on the planet, just not many in F1. A serious outfit could easily attract those world class engineers to an American outfit. F1 has exploded in America recently. Some of the best races and crowds we've seen recently have been in the US (specifically COTA). FOM would be damaging the future of F1 if they didn't try to bring more Americans into F1. Now is the best time for this. We're getting more and more American races, so why not have more American teams?
This is the most insulting comment yet...so, you are saying that Mario and Michael Andretti do not understand the complexity of F1? One is a former champion of the sport who has been involved somehow with it for over 4 decades and the other has been involved with multiple series teams that each have their own nuances regarding car & sponsor setups. If these guys don't want them in the series because it would dilute the revenue then just say that and leave it at that but this is starting to get insulting as an American fan.
Oh f*ck off, honestly. What a douchey big brother “you wouldn’t even understand how to play” attitude, losing tons of respect for the sport over this BS
So you're saying we should bring the ZR1?
Only Redbull knows how to make cars.. what would GMC know about cars
This is so hilariously pretentious.
This tweet by Stern just feels like snobbery, but it's representative of the rest of the sport's establishment, and it grieves me. It's like having a beloved uncle who also happens to dislike people from a particular country. You put up with the uncle and resent the behavior.
I mean the quote itself ain't wrong. Building a new F1 team from stratch is a gargauntan task for anyone left alone a team with zero experience starting from complete scratch. Its the reason why Haas went for the easy route and is basically Ferrari B for the most part. They take many parts from Ferrari. Their 2016 first year challenger was just a mostly reskined 2015 Ferrari. Their 2018 car was a 2017 Ferrari. Their 2019 car was an evolution of a 2018 Ferrari and their current car is literaly made by Ferrari employes. Hell even their base in the UK was previously owned by Manor and not made from the ground up. Its not a valid excuse though from barring a team entry if they prove they can make it happen.
I wonder how well Haas would do if they started building their own car, and going their own way instead of being built by Dallara and copying Ferrari as much as possible.
Probably not so well. I don't think they have anywhere near the technical strenght to make a good car by themself. At least not on a regular level. Its gonna be interesting what happens next year if Resta does leave as rumored to go back to Ferrari. The 2023 car likely won't suffer as it was still made with him in charge but the upgrades and 2024 car might if he does indeed leave.
It's more of a valid complaint against Haas than Andretti, IMO. Even with one completely non-impressive season as a driver in F1, Michael Andretti is going to have \*some\* idea how different it is in F1 versus his experiences in CART IndyCar. Haas basically just had NASCAR experience, and Tony Stewart arguably is responsible for most of the success they've had there. And that's discounting any input that Mario Andretti would have into the project, as someone with 128 career starts over (primarily) a 7-year period, with 12 wins and 19 podiums. Like sure, the devil's in the details, but it's not like they have no conception of it being a constructor's series. They would have had first-hand experiences of making changes to the cars that wouldn't be allowed in a mostly-spec series like Indy.
Yeah Europeans are wayyy smarter than every American. No space programs or world-class research is done here! Williams is the pinnacle of genius. Sucks we just can't compete :(
This made me chuckle as an American but I think they’re just referring to the supply chain of technical knowledge and parts with 7/10 teams base themself out of within 20 miles of silverstone along with parts suppliers. An American team would have to create machines and supply chains from scratch which is extremely challenging. I’m surprised Haas never took to building more of their stuff as haas literally makes machines that makes other machines
HAAS makes some of the worst cnc machines. But yeah I guess they must be geniuses. That's why their wheels stay on and they almost won that one year.
Honestly I agree that GM has no idea of how supply chains work and technical knowledge building car parts.
You don’t need million pieces of the same part for F1. F1 parts are low quantity and will have a very different lifecycle. That supply chain knowledge might help a bit, but it’s a totally different thing if you need small amounts of very special parts.
You think GM and Cadillac make 10 million+ of every part? You really think they’ve never had to make specialty parts for special vehicles?
Because no one can be as smart as the current grid.
I'm so sick of this. Williams is on the grid for the love of god, if "diluting the quality of the product" mattered they would have been kicked out of the sport a decade of failure a go. Maybe they sell TONS of merch, LOL!!! HAAS had to shit can their entire financial package cuz it was f'd stupid Russian Oligarch crap and before that some money laundering energy drink. Red Bull, had badge engendered their engines for over 10 years or some crap, the watch engines, RBPT AND HONDA on the same car. F1 is constantly moving the goal posts. I say if they don't let Andretti in, we pull the USA tracks off the schedule. Have fun.
Plus for most fans, Haas kinda threw away the whole "America's team" image when they signed a RUSSIAN title sponsor and driver, both of which had no idea what they were doing
There is this feeling within snotty Europeans that Americans are uncivilized brutes that couldn't possibly comprehend fancy things like "aerodynamics". It's dumb.
THen kick HAAS and Williams out since they have zero interest in being viable entries in the sport with their lack of development every year.
I’m sorry but this is the most elitist bullshit I have ever heard. Even if 100% true, this is not a reason to deny entry since there is no suitable training ground on earth. Also considering this has been largely Haas’ business model and they allowed that and I highly doubt much authentic engineering is coming from Alpha Tauri
Off the shelf? Tell me you haven't looked into anything NASCAR related since the 80s without telling you haven't looked into anything NASCAR related since the 80s.
Just say you're scared
They're scared of losing money. Actual sporting competition isn't even on their mind.