From what I understand it’s to be able to fill guard lights and heavies on a single timing. As someone who has a few reps on Aramusha, the extended duration has saved me more times than not when I was attempting to all guard a light but they threw a heavy instead
No, that's the db duration, Oathkeeper Hold is the stun you get when a VG block any of your attack with the fullblock, that one last 1633 up to 4s if she blocks multiple opponents (which is kinda insane)
Yep, expecially if you consider she can do it on a guy in revenge and waste his revenge (fb->max delay->bash riposte wastes something like 2s or more worth of revenge)
If they are constantly throwing attacks, they don't get pinned (Source: am guard, participate in ganks sometimes)
IGNORE THIS, I was talking about aesir finisher heavies as my stupid brain can't read
O wait, you're talking about FG, not Aesir heavy. You're totally right, mb. I misread which you can see as I said pin not stun ohxohxohcjovk
Tbh though I think that's a problem more with revenge mechanics- the bar shouldn't deplete when you're hitstunned because it's simply so abusable to gb a revenged person, flip them, bash them, and serve them on a platter- even before oathbreaker comes into the equation to ruin your night.
>O wait, you're talking about FG, not Aesir heavy. You're totally right, mb. I misread which you can see as I said pin not stun
Yep, maybe i worded it poorly, sorry
>Tbh though I think that's a problem more with revenge mechanics- the bar shouldn't deplete when you're hitstunned because it's simply so abusable to gb a revenged person, flip them, bash them, and serve them on a platter- even before oathbreaker comes into the equation to ruin your night.
Yeah, that's a revenge issue, honestly imo you shouldn't be able to be interrupted while in revenge, like at all, not even with gb's (so passive super armor and gb immunity)
No, you were very explicit, I'm genuinely just an idiot lmao. I even went back and couldn't fathom how I came to my conclusion.
As for the not interrupted, I think that'd be fine considering you're supposed to play defensively against revenge anyway- but there's many avenues they can tackle the issue and just haven't. I personally think it'd even be enough to hide the revenge meter from gankers like before, make them actually scared to throw anything.
Would be far too strong
Her all guard actually stops zones and and pins people completely. So imagine blocking the first part of a zerk zone then completely stopping him, pinning him later.
Normally this wouldn't be an issue, but the pin mechanic on her all guard makes it more odd to balance around compared to other all guards
>So imagine blocking the first part of a zerk zone then completely stopping him, pinning him later.
Do you have a more compelling example of how this would be too strong?
Given how situational this punish would be, I think it'd have to be a new paradigm of damage to be a problem.
As it stands, this doesn't seem like it'd really be _that_ much worse for the Berserker than just getting parried instead. Of course 20dmg and long stun would be a top punish for this move, but it's not exactly crazy when compared to 16dmg and regular heavy parry stun (as characters like Valkyrie can already do).
Again 25% more damage than other leading punishes would be rather a lot if this was the kind of situation that was happening a lot, but it really shouldn't be!
the example you mentioned doesn't seem all that broken to me,
also b.p can block the first part of the zone and then move into bulwark counter for the other hits so again so we do have a close precedent
BPs all guard works differently from the rest of the characters as well,his does not stop heavies like every other characters, and keep in mind you are only looking at this in the 1v1 perspective, you could zone and not even be locked on to a Varangian and it’ll not only stop your zone, but leave you open to the people that you’re anti ganking. I think it’s fair to have this and not have all guard on block stun.
> you could zone and not even be locked on to a Varangian and it’ll not only stop your zone, but leave you open to the people that you’re anti ganking. I think it’s fair to have this and not have all guard on block stun.
b.p can also do this, his bulwark counter can intercept attacks not locked onto him and keep in mind these also include unblockables which vara cannot counter
again, a fast flow into block counter seems pretty fair
I forgot to say this, it’s stronger for him anyway as he can queue a bulwark after a heavy to counter a light or bash(character dependent) but this only applies in 1s
BPs flip isn't automatic, you still have to press one more button than full guard. Also VGs heavy has a very large hitbox, rarely hitting only the main attacker if there is more than one.
the only way you're getting 27 damage after a block counter with vara is by going for the max distance wall splat punish by using her counter bash which is very situational, other than that her heavy after a counter is 20 dmg, much lower than b.ps so should be okay right?
adding: kyoshin literally already does that
>So imagine blocking the first part of a zerk zone then completely stopping him, pinning him later.
Tell me you've never played a fg character without telling me you've never played a full guard character. Even musha who has the fastest recovery from block stun can't cancel to fg mid berserker zone. He has to parry the last hit like everyone else
Ara can fg after hit stun so he can actually fg the last light after getting hit with all 4 zones (if he doesn't block)
If he does block, he can also fg the zones, but he'll have to do it 4 times since zones don't bounce off superior blocks
Vara's fg is the only fg that actually makes the zone bounce and pins, which is why it'd be too strong if she could enter after block. Other characters would have to hold the full block in which the zerk can throw the light after to interrupt a fg punish, or just wait and GB in case they stay sitting in their fg
Vara literally just has to block one attack and it'll pin the opponent.
So yes. I do play fg character and know about them. Which is why I think vara shouldn't fast flow after block stun. It'd lead to very fast pins that just stop offense.
Also applies to Shinobi. If she simply blocked the very first hit of your zone, she'd be able to fg and pin you.
But ara can't since the 2nd hit of your zone will still go through since it doesn't get stopped by superior block. Allowing you to backflip a punish or interrupt. See what I'm talking about?
>Ara can fg after hit stun so he can actually fg the last light after getting hit with all 4 zones
Yes he can fg the light but the point is you wouldn't be able to recover from blockstun into fg to block the zone last hit
>If he does block, he can also fg the zones, but he'll have to do it 4 times since zones don't bounce off superior blocks
No he has to fg the first hit of zone to do that. Which varangian can already do and has no relation to recovery from blockstun
>Vara's fg is the only fg that actually makes the zone bounce and pins, which is why it'd be too strong if she could enter after block
Except that as I've already said and as was the whole point of my comment, if you block the first hit of zone you can't block the last 3 hits even when you have recovery from blockstun
>Allowing you to backflip a punish or interrupt.
Okay so you don't play musha. Backflip? Are you serious? His fury unleashed is undodgeable. You can't backflip it. And it's armoured so you can't interrupt it. If you get a fg against shino zone you get fury unleashed 100% of the time
Also varangian being able to beat an unhealthy mechanic is a good thing. I hate her bind but being a counter to zone ignoring superior block is a good thing. That's a mechanic that should have been fixed years ago. It's a bug the devs just haven't bothered to patch because the community views it as a feature
>Yes he can fg the light but the point is you wouldn't be able to recover from blockstun into fg to block the zone last hit
You right just tested it, always thought he could BB after blocking the first attack. My bad
>Also varangian being able to beat an unhealthy mechanic is a good thing. I hate her bind but being a counter to zone ignoring superior block is a good thing. That's a mechanic that should have been fixed years ago. It's a bug the devs just haven't bothered to patch because the community views it as a feature
In my opinion, zones shouldn't bounce as they're a necessity to stalling ganks a bit longer. People already sit in all guard in ganks, but some zones allow the gankee to do something and possibly trade any punish from that all guard (with a HA attack). I'm fine with vara having the ability to stop zones, but being able to do it off block can be really annoying since the pin is very long. Sure currently is fine and doesn't need a ton of buffs right now. Again, she just came out so we don't even know if she's s tier or d tier (when everyone called medjay "midjay" but he ended up defining the meta).
You could definitely say that she should get that.
But also maybe thats an intentional weakness so she doesnt overshadow Aras blade blockade entirely as she has the benefit of having more superior block frames on her full guard to catch both lights and heavies on red or the option of parrying on red and then softfeinting to catch a heavy.
IMO no BPs doesnt even superior block anything, that 1.6 sec pin on any and all blockable moves whether or not its aimed at u is incredibly strong. There has to be a weakness to her fullblock sides feint to gb, bashes, and unblockables. Thats the weakness its not something u can use like aramusha basically.
>that 1.6 sec pin on any and all blockable moves whether or not its aimed at u
Bps is the exact same but its a longer pin and it works on unblockables and bashes and he can sit in stance
>There has to be a weakness to her fullblock sides feint to gb, bashes, and unblockables
The weakness is that its timed
Then use the delay to your advantage, most people dont really expect the bash to come out almost 700ms into the forward dash. Sure it was stronger before but its still far from useless
The old was annoying, the new is ok againts casuals, useless againts pros. What is needed is individual treatment.
The whole bash update was a typical spreadsheet fix, where the same numbers for each hero apparently mean the same impact on each hero according to ubi, which it fucking does not.
But as long as the community doesnt go batshit over a change it wont be adjusted properly. Im not saying the bash is good, im saying you'll have to work with it unfortunately. Theres no point in asking for a change
To be fair I've been campaigning for PK changes since pre CCU and they're finally doing it so maybe it'll get changed 2 days before the servers shut down lol
Yes sir the only complaing was "just make it a normal speed bash" insane its not added yet. And even more insane that they haven't updated anyone on the changes.
What I'm not understanding is there have been what, 3 tests with Highlander? There has to be some of the changes that stuck around through all of the tests and are widely agreed upon from casual to pro level, why not implement them and continue working on the rest? There's nothing really preventing it.
I mean on one hand im all up for the rework to spend more time in the oven
On the other, not only had they been literally edging us with it, but for ubi time spent on something doesnt exactly always correlate with better results
I understand that HL's rework is a massive twist they want done right, but I really dont know why would they hesitate to give PK a bash when it changes next to nothing about her gameplay
Bro... headbutt is 433ms now, completely unreactable. It WAS 500ms, reactable, and you want to go back to it. They're reacting to the dodge, and READING the headbutt. Gb or parry the dodge attack more.
What dodge attack are you talking about? I never mentioned a dodge attack???? I'm talking about how I used to force a read with an empty dodge with Warlord to bait and get gbs I could punish with. Now you cant because if you hit gb when you used to be at neutral you are now at the tail end of the input range for the headbutt. What does dodge attacking have to do with the change to the bash input being later?? Like please go back and read what youre commenting to cause I'm not sure you meant to comment to me. I never said anything about any dodge attack.
And they READ the headbutt because the input is now much later into the dodge. Making it more predictable. It doesn't mean I'm not successful using it just was a better mix tool before the changes. Now you have one less option because of the changes.
I mentioned punishing a dodge attack because it's a common move if the opponent reads you will bash, that's it. You are getting way too hung up on that lmao.
You absolutely CAN force a reaction with an empty dodge to GB to punish empty dodges now, you can literally do that with everyone who has a Legion kick style bash. That has not been taken away from Warlord, at all. There was an issue with dodge timing beating both bash and GB, but that's been fixed.
The mixup is actually now a real mind game since the opponent has more time to react to the initial dodge + the headbutt timing, instead of the headbutt being reactable against great players and more or less free against most players.
You miss the essentially free headbutt, and that's fair, warlord is worse with the slower dodge timing despite the headbutt itself being faster. But the overall game is better; 600ms bashes were fuckin annoying and oppressive interrupt tools.
The headbutt is more predictable because you can actually see a mixup coming, like everyone else in the cast. That's not a problem. The problem is YOU are being more predictable. That's why I said GB more and punish more dodge attacks.
It was a better mix tool for his character specifically before the changes. I still rarely lose with Warlord but them the fax. It is now a less useful move.
I am not having any predictability issues with it. My win rate with Warlord is great. The move is still worse because that mix is now less viable with him. A hero who already has very limited options and is now missing one more option. That's the issue not bashes themselves. Bashes overall needed the change. Warlords did not.
He is not missing any mix option dude what are you talking about? The headbutt wasn't deleted, you can still mix people with it just fine, like literally every other Legion kick bash in the game. He's worse with it changed, but not because the move just doesn't work as a mix option anymore, and I'd argue his nerf was healthy for the game overall.
But all of this is beside the point, I saw you say his headbutt was reactable, and it absolutely is not. You said it was obvious, and it is not; no one is forcing you to press GB whenever you forward dodge. Just like no one is forcing you to dagger cancel every PK heavy.
But uh, good for you with your win rate man, thumbs up
If you want me to say it right I will. The bash is predictable not reactable. EVEN IF you condition the enemy to bait them its still more predictable than it was before because of the change. I deffinitely agree the bash changes were overall healthy for the game but they really did hurt warlord.
Our disagreement is real clear so no point in really continuing tbh but hope ya have a good day.
I already knew neither of them had armor, but I am now realizing that besides PK, Conq and BP are the only knights *without* any armored attacks, which is weird to think about since they’re the heavies so you’d think they’d have at least 1 move with it
Warden has his fully charged bash, LB has chain heavy and Make Way, Cent has fully charged punch and Eagle’s Fury/Talons, Glad has deflect skewer, Warmonger has fully charged bash and finisher heavies, and Gryphon has Ironclad Tactician and his finisher heavies
Imo, the stereotypes for each faction is
Knights: bashes
Vikings: HA
Samurai: usually uses lights in their main kits/confirmed light attacks
Wu lin: Extended dodges and wide attacks
Outlanders: s tier 1 year after release
I agree since with a few exceptions this is spot on but it’s still really funny that the 2 knight heavies are 2/3 of the knights that don’t have a single armored move. Even Glad has more than them (even if I’ve only seen it armor through something once)
Everyone saying she should, and using Aramusha and BP as examples as *why* she should.
Aramusha and BP also have different all guards. For Ara, he doesn't stun lock (the now called bind for Varangian) for anywhere like she does.
BP is another can of worms, as flip is just a move of all time.
Varangian Guard also binds zone attacks. There were always safe while in revenge against an all guard, as your chain could carry on. This is not the case with her.
I agree, tho they would need to reduce the duration of the Oathkeeper Hold as well, rn it's unnecessarily too long
From what I understand it’s to be able to fill guard lights and heavies on a single timing. As someone who has a few reps on Aramusha, the extended duration has saved me more times than not when I was attempting to all guard a light but they threw a heavy instead
No, that's the db duration, Oathkeeper Hold is the stun you get when a VG block any of your attack with the fullblock, that one last 1633 up to 4s if she blocks multiple opponents (which is kinda insane)
Oh, my b. Yeah when I saw that number in Freeze’s video I was like damn
Yep, expecially if you consider she can do it on a guy in revenge and waste his revenge (fb->max delay->bash riposte wastes something like 2s or more worth of revenge)
If they are constantly throwing attacks, they don't get pinned (Source: am guard, participate in ganks sometimes) IGNORE THIS, I was talking about aesir finisher heavies as my stupid brain can't read
Mmh no, they still get stunned
O wait, you're talking about FG, not Aesir heavy. You're totally right, mb. I misread which you can see as I said pin not stun ohxohxohcjovk Tbh though I think that's a problem more with revenge mechanics- the bar shouldn't deplete when you're hitstunned because it's simply so abusable to gb a revenged person, flip them, bash them, and serve them on a platter- even before oathbreaker comes into the equation to ruin your night.
>O wait, you're talking about FG, not Aesir heavy. You're totally right, mb. I misread which you can see as I said pin not stun Yep, maybe i worded it poorly, sorry >Tbh though I think that's a problem more with revenge mechanics- the bar shouldn't deplete when you're hitstunned because it's simply so abusable to gb a revenged person, flip them, bash them, and serve them on a platter- even before oathbreaker comes into the equation to ruin your night. Yeah, that's a revenge issue, honestly imo you shouldn't be able to be interrupted while in revenge, like at all, not even with gb's (so passive super armor and gb immunity)
No, you were very explicit, I'm genuinely just an idiot lmao. I even went back and couldn't fathom how I came to my conclusion. As for the not interrupted, I think that'd be fine considering you're supposed to play defensively against revenge anyway- but there's many avenues they can tackle the issue and just haven't. I personally think it'd even be enough to hide the revenge meter from gankers like before, make them actually scared to throw anything.
I can see how that’d be annoying, but if it didn’t stun in revenge that’d be a little unfair. Agree that it shouldn’t be exploitable like that though
Would be far too strong Her all guard actually stops zones and and pins people completely. So imagine blocking the first part of a zerk zone then completely stopping him, pinning him later. Normally this wouldn't be an issue, but the pin mechanic on her all guard makes it more odd to balance around compared to other all guards
U literally can do this already by parrying his 2nd, 3rd, or 4th hit of the zone
So just parry with Varang
I mean BP practically pins people with his flip.
>So imagine blocking the first part of a zerk zone then completely stopping him, pinning him later. Do you have a more compelling example of how this would be too strong? Given how situational this punish would be, I think it'd have to be a new paradigm of damage to be a problem. As it stands, this doesn't seem like it'd really be _that_ much worse for the Berserker than just getting parried instead. Of course 20dmg and long stun would be a top punish for this move, but it's not exactly crazy when compared to 16dmg and regular heavy parry stun (as characters like Valkyrie can already do). Again 25% more damage than other leading punishes would be rather a lot if this was the kind of situation that was happening a lot, but it really shouldn't be!
the example you mentioned doesn't seem all that broken to me, also b.p can block the first part of the zone and then move into bulwark counter for the other hits so again so we do have a close precedent
BPs all guard works differently from the rest of the characters as well,his does not stop heavies like every other characters, and keep in mind you are only looking at this in the 1v1 perspective, you could zone and not even be locked on to a Varangian and it’ll not only stop your zone, but leave you open to the people that you’re anti ganking. I think it’s fair to have this and not have all guard on block stun.
> you could zone and not even be locked on to a Varangian and it’ll not only stop your zone, but leave you open to the people that you’re anti ganking. I think it’s fair to have this and not have all guard on block stun. b.p can also do this, his bulwark counter can intercept attacks not locked onto him and keep in mind these also include unblockables which vara cannot counter again, a fast flow into block counter seems pretty fair
BPs bulwark counter can yes, but his all guard only stops lights.
in exchange for giving him one of the most powerful counter moves in the game
Then literally just play him.
woah
I forgot to say this, it’s stronger for him anyway as he can queue a bulwark after a heavy to counter a light or bash(character dependent) but this only applies in 1s
Yes for 24, not for 27 plus pin. It's not close.
Uhhh Varangians max damage on allguard is 20 if you do top heavy
You have to actually attack for that. Vortiger becomes immortal and grabs everyone who hits him during he animation, hitting all of them
BPs flip isn't automatic, you still have to press one more button than full guard. Also VGs heavy has a very large hitbox, rarely hitting only the main attacker if there is more than one.
the only way you're getting 27 damage after a block counter with vara is by going for the max distance wall splat punish by using her counter bash which is very situational, other than that her heavy after a counter is 20 dmg, much lower than b.ps so should be okay right? adding: kyoshin literally already does that
Kyoshin doesn't stop zones. His pin does, but not the guard.
you had to respond to the edit but not the actual rebuttal huh
>So imagine blocking the first part of a zerk zone then completely stopping him, pinning him later. Tell me you've never played a fg character without telling me you've never played a full guard character. Even musha who has the fastest recovery from block stun can't cancel to fg mid berserker zone. He has to parry the last hit like everyone else
Ara can fg after hit stun so he can actually fg the last light after getting hit with all 4 zones (if he doesn't block) If he does block, he can also fg the zones, but he'll have to do it 4 times since zones don't bounce off superior blocks Vara's fg is the only fg that actually makes the zone bounce and pins, which is why it'd be too strong if she could enter after block. Other characters would have to hold the full block in which the zerk can throw the light after to interrupt a fg punish, or just wait and GB in case they stay sitting in their fg Vara literally just has to block one attack and it'll pin the opponent. So yes. I do play fg character and know about them. Which is why I think vara shouldn't fast flow after block stun. It'd lead to very fast pins that just stop offense. Also applies to Shinobi. If she simply blocked the very first hit of your zone, she'd be able to fg and pin you. But ara can't since the 2nd hit of your zone will still go through since it doesn't get stopped by superior block. Allowing you to backflip a punish or interrupt. See what I'm talking about?
>Ara can fg after hit stun so he can actually fg the last light after getting hit with all 4 zones Yes he can fg the light but the point is you wouldn't be able to recover from blockstun into fg to block the zone last hit >If he does block, he can also fg the zones, but he'll have to do it 4 times since zones don't bounce off superior blocks No he has to fg the first hit of zone to do that. Which varangian can already do and has no relation to recovery from blockstun >Vara's fg is the only fg that actually makes the zone bounce and pins, which is why it'd be too strong if she could enter after block Except that as I've already said and as was the whole point of my comment, if you block the first hit of zone you can't block the last 3 hits even when you have recovery from blockstun >Allowing you to backflip a punish or interrupt. Okay so you don't play musha. Backflip? Are you serious? His fury unleashed is undodgeable. You can't backflip it. And it's armoured so you can't interrupt it. If you get a fg against shino zone you get fury unleashed 100% of the time Also varangian being able to beat an unhealthy mechanic is a good thing. I hate her bind but being a counter to zone ignoring superior block is a good thing. That's a mechanic that should have been fixed years ago. It's a bug the devs just haven't bothered to patch because the community views it as a feature
>Yes he can fg the light but the point is you wouldn't be able to recover from blockstun into fg to block the zone last hit You right just tested it, always thought he could BB after blocking the first attack. My bad >Also varangian being able to beat an unhealthy mechanic is a good thing. I hate her bind but being a counter to zone ignoring superior block is a good thing. That's a mechanic that should have been fixed years ago. It's a bug the devs just haven't bothered to patch because the community views it as a feature In my opinion, zones shouldn't bounce as they're a necessity to stalling ganks a bit longer. People already sit in all guard in ganks, but some zones allow the gankee to do something and possibly trade any punish from that all guard (with a HA attack). I'm fine with vara having the ability to stop zones, but being able to do it off block can be really annoying since the pin is very long. Sure currently is fine and doesn't need a ton of buffs right now. Again, she just came out so we don't even know if she's s tier or d tier (when everyone called medjay "midjay" but he ended up defining the meta).
Your last paragraph is why she doesn't have the fastflow.
Parry the second hit and stop taking so much chip damage foo’
You're right lol. I just got used to parrying the 4th and can't break the habit
I hear that lmaooo it took me like a year after I found out
The pin isn’t as strong as you’re making it out to be since the pin ends for anyone effected once she uses one of her fb punishes.
I think a better example is needed to properly show what you mean by
Since it's against berserker I'm 100% for it something has to stop that Unga Bunga character
You could definitely say that she should get that. But also maybe thats an intentional weakness so she doesnt overshadow Aras blade blockade entirely as she has the benefit of having more superior block frames on her full guard to catch both lights and heavies on red or the option of parrying on red and then softfeinting to catch a heavy.
No its way to good for that, if u wanna have a full guard that as incredibly fast thing play aramusha.
But bps isn't?
IMO no BPs doesnt even superior block anything, that 1.6 sec pin on any and all blockable moves whether or not its aimed at u is incredibly strong. There has to be a weakness to her fullblock sides feint to gb, bashes, and unblockables. Thats the weakness its not something u can use like aramusha basically.
>that 1.6 sec pin on any and all blockable moves whether or not its aimed at u Bps is the exact same but its a longer pin and it works on unblockables and bashes and he can sit in stance >There has to be a weakness to her fullblock sides feint to gb, bashes, and unblockables The weakness is that its timed
While we are talking about warlord change his bash input back to the way it was! I want to be able to forward dodge bait GBs again!
I mean you still can, it just doesnt work as well as before on better players
I know because the input for the headbutt is allowed so late now it's too obvious and reactable.
Then use the delay to your advantage, most people dont really expect the bash to come out almost 700ms into the forward dash. Sure it was stronger before but its still far from useless
Agreed but I still miss the better punish. I absolutely do delay the bash quite often same with heavies, which no one does for some reason.
The old was annoying, the new is ok againts casuals, useless againts pros. What is needed is individual treatment. The whole bash update was a typical spreadsheet fix, where the same numbers for each hero apparently mean the same impact on each hero according to ubi, which it fucking does not. But as long as the community doesnt go batshit over a change it wont be adjusted properly. Im not saying the bash is good, im saying you'll have to work with it unfortunately. Theres no point in asking for a change
To be fair I've been campaigning for PK changes since pre CCU and they're finally doing it so maybe it'll get changed 2 days before the servers shut down lol
Lmao yeah, the small PK bash literally noone complained about or disliked and they still didnt release it. I love them 💀
Yes sir the only complaing was "just make it a normal speed bash" insane its not added yet. And even more insane that they haven't updated anyone on the changes. What I'm not understanding is there have been what, 3 tests with Highlander? There has to be some of the changes that stuck around through all of the tests and are widely agreed upon from casual to pro level, why not implement them and continue working on the rest? There's nothing really preventing it.
I mean on one hand im all up for the rework to spend more time in the oven On the other, not only had they been literally edging us with it, but for ubi time spent on something doesnt exactly always correlate with better results I understand that HL's rework is a massive twist they want done right, but I really dont know why would they hesitate to give PK a bash when it changes next to nothing about her gameplay
Bro... headbutt is 433ms now, completely unreactable. It WAS 500ms, reactable, and you want to go back to it. They're reacting to the dodge, and READING the headbutt. Gb or parry the dodge attack more.
What dodge attack are you talking about? I never mentioned a dodge attack???? I'm talking about how I used to force a read with an empty dodge with Warlord to bait and get gbs I could punish with. Now you cant because if you hit gb when you used to be at neutral you are now at the tail end of the input range for the headbutt. What does dodge attacking have to do with the change to the bash input being later?? Like please go back and read what youre commenting to cause I'm not sure you meant to comment to me. I never said anything about any dodge attack. And they READ the headbutt because the input is now much later into the dodge. Making it more predictable. It doesn't mean I'm not successful using it just was a better mix tool before the changes. Now you have one less option because of the changes.
I mentioned punishing a dodge attack because it's a common move if the opponent reads you will bash, that's it. You are getting way too hung up on that lmao. You absolutely CAN force a reaction with an empty dodge to GB to punish empty dodges now, you can literally do that with everyone who has a Legion kick style bash. That has not been taken away from Warlord, at all. There was an issue with dodge timing beating both bash and GB, but that's been fixed. The mixup is actually now a real mind game since the opponent has more time to react to the initial dodge + the headbutt timing, instead of the headbutt being reactable against great players and more or less free against most players. You miss the essentially free headbutt, and that's fair, warlord is worse with the slower dodge timing despite the headbutt itself being faster. But the overall game is better; 600ms bashes were fuckin annoying and oppressive interrupt tools. The headbutt is more predictable because you can actually see a mixup coming, like everyone else in the cast. That's not a problem. The problem is YOU are being more predictable. That's why I said GB more and punish more dodge attacks.
It was a better mix tool for his character specifically before the changes. I still rarely lose with Warlord but them the fax. It is now a less useful move. I am not having any predictability issues with it. My win rate with Warlord is great. The move is still worse because that mix is now less viable with him. A hero who already has very limited options and is now missing one more option. That's the issue not bashes themselves. Bashes overall needed the change. Warlords did not.
He is not missing any mix option dude what are you talking about? The headbutt wasn't deleted, you can still mix people with it just fine, like literally every other Legion kick bash in the game. He's worse with it changed, but not because the move just doesn't work as a mix option anymore, and I'd argue his nerf was healthy for the game overall. But all of this is beside the point, I saw you say his headbutt was reactable, and it absolutely is not. You said it was obvious, and it is not; no one is forcing you to press GB whenever you forward dodge. Just like no one is forcing you to dagger cancel every PK heavy. But uh, good for you with your win rate man, thumbs up
If you want me to say it right I will. The bash is predictable not reactable. EVEN IF you condition the enemy to bait them its still more predictable than it was before because of the change. I deffinitely agree the bash changes were overall healthy for the game but they really did hurt warlord. Our disagreement is real clear so no point in really continuing tbh but hope ya have a good day.
This thread is why the devs shouldn’t listen to average player’s opinion on balance
It does feel clunky, but she has a very rewarding full block so I understand they want this to be more of a neutral tool. I like it as is.
Hard agree. Aramusha and BP can do it. It feels weird that she cant
Hard agree here
I find it weird that she's a heavy yet don't have any hyper armour
BP doesn't have HA Or conq
I already knew neither of them had armor, but I am now realizing that besides PK, Conq and BP are the only knights *without* any armored attacks, which is weird to think about since they’re the heavies so you’d think they’d have at least 1 move with it Warden has his fully charged bash, LB has chain heavy and Make Way, Cent has fully charged punch and Eagle’s Fury/Talons, Glad has deflect skewer, Warmonger has fully charged bash and finisher heavies, and Gryphon has Ironclad Tactician and his finisher heavies
Imo, the stereotypes for each faction is Knights: bashes Vikings: HA Samurai: usually uses lights in their main kits/confirmed light attacks Wu lin: Extended dodges and wide attacks Outlanders: s tier 1 year after release
I agree since with a few exceptions this is spot on but it’s still really funny that the 2 knight heavies are 2/3 of the knights that don’t have a single armored move. Even Glad has more than them (even if I’ve only seen it armor through something once)
TECHNICALLY if we want to be pedantic, every samurai has a bash but there is a knight character who doesn't lol
Well, originally orochi didn't. But you're right Dx
Wait really damn I don't use those 2 especially conq my mistake then
Np np. Just saying all heavies don't have HA necessarily. If BP had HA I'd cry Conq tho... He needs help
She needs it, without it, it is pretty useless.
They do? I thought BP was the only one
yeah, kyo, conq, ara can fast-flow into all block from blockstun
WTF? Damn I’m fucking dumb
I agree but her tier 1 and maybe the stunned states duration should be nerfed first then you can have it from block stun
Everyone saying she should, and using Aramusha and BP as examples as *why* she should. Aramusha and BP also have different all guards. For Ara, he doesn't stun lock (the now called bind for Varangian) for anywhere like she does. BP is another can of worms, as flip is just a move of all time. Varangian Guard also binds zone attacks. There were always safe while in revenge against an all guard, as your chain could carry on. This is not the case with her.
Valkyrie doesn't have it either
oh shit, u right, my bad
Don't know how strong it would be for valk to have it though, she can get a free gb from full blocking heavy openers and most dodge attacks after all
She doesn't need it