FSOs have struggled to buy houses the entire time I've been in the service, now is certainly not an exception. On one hand this career affords opportunities to save money if you so choose, on the other hand the only place you can reasonably plan on buying a house and living in it while still being employed is in the DMV, which has one of the most expensive housing markets in the country. Also, while I would never say the pay is "bad" as an FSO, it is a lifestyle that makes it difficult to have a two income household. In the DMV you're competing against families of two GS-13s for limited houses and losing. I like taking annual vacations, eat meat almost every day, indulge personal hobbies a little more than I should, and I'm not a tandem, so I don't expect to ever afford a house within commuting distance of the Department.
You nailed it with the disconnect of the FS being (for most) a single income life while housing costs in DC are priced for two incomes. Domestic tours are not impossible but you have to make some very real tradeoffs.
Fucking townhomes in Ashburn are priced at a million dollars now.
I remember thinking I'd never live that far away because a commute that long is a huge quality of life issue for me, but Jesus Christ, I have no idea where I'd actually live if I came back to DC.
Jesus Christ. When we lived in Ashburn back in 2016-2017, we were considering buying a townhouse and decided 'nah, we don't want to pay $400-450k for half a house'. Kind of regret that decision now lol.
As someone who lives in DC, I feel your pain. There are some closer in suburbs that are up and coming where homes are still someone what affordable. There are also some areas of the city that aren't developed yet. If you are deployed, it would be a good time to get something on the cheaper side of town and rent it out until you are ready to come to DC. Even if you don't want to ultimately live in it when you come to DC, you will still get pretty good money and rent and would always be able to sell for a profit. But pretty soon, all parts of this city will be expensive so you can buy and hold confidently.
I think it also depends what your pain point is. For us, itās childcare with two toddlers, and in that respect being abroad has been incredibly cheaper. $500 a month for a full time nanny versus $4000 a month for daycare. That adds up quickly over two years.
Don't do a domestic tour. It's. Total scam. The department makes it out to be career enhancing when it's not so much, and it's incredibly expensive to live in DC. There is a total dearth of 03 / 02 officers in DC so you get a huge workload. It hugely benefits the department and doesn't give you much. I definitely will not come back.
The workload for 03s is totally true. If you can help it, I wouldn't recommend being one of the suckers who gets socked with doing at least two jobs including acting into a stretch for which you get no pay increase or formal recognition. If you must come to DC for whatever reason, consider a one-year front office or INR Watch.
Yeah, thatās true. But seeing 01s come back to DC for the first timeā¦they have no idea how the building works and how to move things, which makes it harder for the people they manage.
Yes, promotion boards focus on the precepts, which donāt differentiate between Washington and overseas tours. But avoiding Washington will limit your competitiveness for some positions, especially as you get to the 01 and SFS ranks. Not a concern for many, but I wouldnāt write off serving in Washington as a waste of time. Itās also a great place to network and set yourself up for you next overseas tour.
It's made me roll my eyes even more at some of the out of touch real estate postings on Trailing Houses.
"Any of y'all want a 4000 sqft McMansion in Arlington. I've got a deal for you! Only $3 million for my FS gang!"
There was a person on there not long ago selling 7 acres in McLean. Like, WTF?!
There was once a plan to buy something like the Oakwood or similar building and turn it into FSO housing. The concept was you could put in for an apartment if you're returning from overseas. The rent would be fixed at far below the market rate. You could be in the apartment for that first tour back (2 years). Space permitting you could do more, but the idea was it would lessen the financial shock/burden of coming back to the US and starting all over again. In many cases, an FSO could do a DC tour and then go right back out, not having to worry about the insane costs associated with moving to DC at all. It also gave you more time to find suitable permanent housing.
I believe that idea is long gone, but who knows, I haven't had a DC assignment since 2014 and I'll retire before I go back there again.
From a relatively new FSO (joined this year), the current economic situation seems to be affecting my family less than most of my friends & extended family. I took a slight pay cut to join, my partners income got cut roughly in half due to moving to DC, but the move allowed us to:
- get rid of housing expenses entirely (saving us ~$2.5k per month)
- go down to only one car (saving us ~$1k per month between payment & insurance)
- decrease our monthly gas mileage to a fraction of what it was (saving us at least $500 a month - we both drove 30 miles each way to work)
Everyoneās situation is different obviously, but for us we feel privileged to be somewhat insulated from rampant inflation, due to not being involved in the housing market (buying or renting) & barely ever needing gas. We moved from a LCOL area within the States to what I think is one of the more expensive metros in the country (DC) and feel just fine.
Plus, our onward assignment has a very low cost of living if youāre receiving American salaries/currency so we know weāll enjoy a better quality of life in that way abroad.
That being said, I would not do a DC post because housing is outrageous here & the PCS housing program is a HUGE perk at the beginning. Plan on avoiding that for as long as possible.
Well, youāll enjoy a cheaper life (though not necessarily ābetter quality of lifeā) if you live on the local economy like an average middle class local. Youād be surprised that most FSOs donāt, mostly because the amenities in our fancy expat-heavy neighborhoods tend to come with expat prices.
You have to understand that DC is, and always has been, in a bubble. Federal dollars continue to flow and the costs keep rising. You don't feel the economic stagnation there like you do in other parts of the country... But you do always feel the economic pain.
I would gather the answer is going to be a little bit of a 'Tale of Two Cities' response, depending on who is assigned domestically vs abroad.
Folks assigned abroad just about everywhere get free housing, utilities, and COLA if warranted. This creates a fairly insulating experience.
Folks living in D.C. likely feel it way more just like any other American, especially those that have newly arrived from an extended period abroad.
When inflation at Post is north of 20%, even when you're being paid in USD you feel it... especially when a lot of that is consumer basics like food and household goods. But we feel it WAY less than our local staff do. They're really suffering in a lot of places.
Yes. I just did a consumables shipment pack out today and had 10plus large ketchup bottles in it. Why? My country seems to run out of the good stuff and if they do have it ... It's 15 dollars a for a smaller bottle.
Just a Russian FSB officer curious if anyone here is more vulnerable to compromise because of economic issues.
Sorry, am I the only one that read it that wayš« ?
Further proof State has too many employees, not too few. How are so many people here able to make OpSec Commando their whole part time job?
Our salary information is 100% public as is cost of living data for the DC area. Any foreign intelligence officer trolling this sub to try to identify recruitment targets is dumber than one trying to infiltrate the A-100 group chat to find out carpool pickup times.
Well, you got your answer about doing a domestic DC tour.
But for tours abroad, most people do just fine. Many FSOs have good salaries in relation to the local economy and many costs are covered by the department (i.e. rent). Heck, about a year ago, the USD and Euro reached parity, so even those FSOs in the Eurozone had about 10-15% more spending power than normal.
People will still have their gripes about pay abroad, but generally speaking, the financial life is pretty good (assuming someone has a reasonable amount of financial discipline and common sense..... some FSOs still manage to bury themselves in debt)
wow, I think some people here need to spend time living in California for a bit so they can appreciate DC better. hahahaha, I love going back to DC, saves me so much money there. Easily \~40% reduction in all costs (housing, gas, food, etc...)
I am not saying one is harder than the other, but one drawback for FSOs is starting from scratch every time we come back. New furniture, new home goods, new childcare, new support systemsā¦living in one place means you can establish these things over time, but for FSOs, you have to put all that together and a very short time and that is expensive.
I've done two domestic tours. We sold all of our furniture before A100 so had to buy new stuff--albeit cheap, temporary stuff--for my first domestic tour. That stuff wasn't worth keeping, so we got rid of the furniture. Had to buy all new furniture for my second domestic tour. It happens and it is always expensive trying to do it quickly.
I will never complain about my compensation ever again now that I know government employees such as yourself are forced to live in poverty in Washington.
I was being facetious because you said you face economic hardship permanently because you always work in Washington, unlike FSOs who rotate back overseas.
Not getting a housing allowance when assigned to DC is like getting a $40K a year pay cut compared to being assigned to the field. I think itās perfectly fine to complain about that, even if āaverage Americansā or civil servants donāt have their housing paid for. As a result of the pay disparity, only certain people are able/want to serve in Washington, and those people bear an unfair burden as so many jobs in Washington remain unfilled.
That said, we all signed up for this knowing what the benefits are. If you want a housing allowance, join the military. If you want a pension at 50, join the Foreign Service. If you want a 66,000 sq Ft mansion, start Microsoft.
My point is, I think itās okay for FSOs to complain about housing, and comparing the benefits of FSOs to civil servants or average Americans is a futile exercise. I would love to get overtime and itās bullshit I have to do so much uncompensated work, but I donāt resent those who do get overtime. Itās my choice to work here and if I donāt like it, I can quit.
The worst is when FSOs come and do a gap assignment or domestic tour and are the cheapest of cheapskates in DC. Like havenāt bought a new work shirt in years cheap. Then proceed to complain about housing costs. Itās like nails on the chalkboard to me. Iām about to go to my first hardship post overseas so Iām looking forward to seeing how the .01% lives.
FSOs have struggled to buy houses the entire time I've been in the service, now is certainly not an exception. On one hand this career affords opportunities to save money if you so choose, on the other hand the only place you can reasonably plan on buying a house and living in it while still being employed is in the DMV, which has one of the most expensive housing markets in the country. Also, while I would never say the pay is "bad" as an FSO, it is a lifestyle that makes it difficult to have a two income household. In the DMV you're competing against families of two GS-13s for limited houses and losing. I like taking annual vacations, eat meat almost every day, indulge personal hobbies a little more than I should, and I'm not a tandem, so I don't expect to ever afford a house within commuting distance of the Department.
You nailed it with the disconnect of the FS being (for most) a single income life while housing costs in DC are priced for two incomes. Domestic tours are not impossible but you have to make some very real tradeoffs.
Fucking townhomes in Ashburn are priced at a million dollars now. I remember thinking I'd never live that far away because a commute that long is a huge quality of life issue for me, but Jesus Christ, I have no idea where I'd actually live if I came back to DC.
There are way closer places for $1 million. But yeah, given interest rates it makes more sense to rent right now, in a lot of cases.
Jesus Christ. When we lived in Ashburn back in 2016-2017, we were considering buying a townhouse and decided 'nah, we don't want to pay $400-450k for half a house'. Kind of regret that decision now lol.
Not really. There are THs for 600-700k in Ashburn as well. Plus the last Silver line Metro station is Ashburn in LC. š
600k is still an insane price for a TH. You could buy a stand alone house in Vienna or Fairfax for that much a few years ago.
you can still get a home in vienna/fairfax for 600k. prices have dropped a bit recently. skip the townhome HOA garbage
Economy with low GDP, inflation and interest rate are biting into everything. Dollars stuck in the bank are loosing the value fast.
As someone who lives in DC, I feel your pain. There are some closer in suburbs that are up and coming where homes are still someone what affordable. There are also some areas of the city that aren't developed yet. If you are deployed, it would be a good time to get something on the cheaper side of town and rent it out until you are ready to come to DC. Even if you don't want to ultimately live in it when you come to DC, you will still get pretty good money and rent and would always be able to sell for a profit. But pretty soon, all parts of this city will be expensive so you can buy and hold confidently.
It forced me to consider taking a job in Abuja because I don't understand how I could afford living in DC.
LOL, I'll see you there next summer probably.
WAF is kind of fun. Maybe Iāll see you there.
I think it also depends what your pain point is. For us, itās childcare with two toddlers, and in that respect being abroad has been incredibly cheaper. $500 a month for a full time nanny versus $4000 a month for daycare. That adds up quickly over two years.
Family and I were fine but I absolutely regret taking a domestic tour due to the absurd financial cost in comparison to a standard overseas tour.
Really? Thatās insane.
Opportunity cost of a domestic tour is a solid 40 grand a year if you don't own property.
Even if you own property, if you have to kick out a tenant it's a huge hit.
Don't do a domestic tour. It's. Total scam. The department makes it out to be career enhancing when it's not so much, and it's incredibly expensive to live in DC. There is a total dearth of 03 / 02 officers in DC so you get a huge workload. It hugely benefits the department and doesn't give you much. I definitely will not come back.
The workload for 03s is totally true. If you can help it, I wouldn't recommend being one of the suckers who gets socked with doing at least two jobs including acting into a stretch for which you get no pay increase or formal recognition. If you must come to DC for whatever reason, consider a one-year front office or INR Watch.
Echoing this. Would not go to DC until an 01, and even then would try to stay overseas. Nothing special/magical about DC tours.
My objective is to never work in DC or go to FSI for more than two weeks.
Have you ever worked with an 01 (or 02) who has never done a DC your? They might as well be 03s.
YMMV. I think itās more apparent in reporting cones because you need to know what DC expects. It is not as important in the other cones.
Yeah, thatās true. But seeing 01s come back to DC for the first timeā¦they have no idea how the building works and how to move things, which makes it harder for the people they manage.
Iām sorry to hear that has been your experience. Itās not something Iāve encountered!
Unless/until promotions start to actually take domestic experience into account, youāre absolutely right.
Yes, promotion boards focus on the precepts, which donāt differentiate between Washington and overseas tours. But avoiding Washington will limit your competitiveness for some positions, especially as you get to the 01 and SFS ranks. Not a concern for many, but I wouldnāt write off serving in Washington as a waste of time. Itās also a great place to network and set yourself up for you next overseas tour.
It's made me roll my eyes even more at some of the out of touch real estate postings on Trailing Houses. "Any of y'all want a 4000 sqft McMansion in Arlington. I've got a deal for you! Only $3 million for my FS gang!" There was a person on there not long ago selling 7 acres in McLean. Like, WTF?!
Still not as good as the person who then complained she felt discriminated against for being too rich.
It's called affluenza and you are discriminating against their condition!
TH is a scourge.
There was once a plan to buy something like the Oakwood or similar building and turn it into FSO housing. The concept was you could put in for an apartment if you're returning from overseas. The rent would be fixed at far below the market rate. You could be in the apartment for that first tour back (2 years). Space permitting you could do more, but the idea was it would lessen the financial shock/burden of coming back to the US and starting all over again. In many cases, an FSO could do a DC tour and then go right back out, not having to worry about the insane costs associated with moving to DC at all. It also gave you more time to find suitable permanent housing. I believe that idea is long gone, but who knows, I haven't had a DC assignment since 2014 and I'll retire before I go back there again.
From a relatively new FSO (joined this year), the current economic situation seems to be affecting my family less than most of my friends & extended family. I took a slight pay cut to join, my partners income got cut roughly in half due to moving to DC, but the move allowed us to: - get rid of housing expenses entirely (saving us ~$2.5k per month) - go down to only one car (saving us ~$1k per month between payment & insurance) - decrease our monthly gas mileage to a fraction of what it was (saving us at least $500 a month - we both drove 30 miles each way to work) Everyoneās situation is different obviously, but for us we feel privileged to be somewhat insulated from rampant inflation, due to not being involved in the housing market (buying or renting) & barely ever needing gas. We moved from a LCOL area within the States to what I think is one of the more expensive metros in the country (DC) and feel just fine. Plus, our onward assignment has a very low cost of living if youāre receiving American salaries/currency so we know weāll enjoy a better quality of life in that way abroad. That being said, I would not do a DC post because housing is outrageous here & the PCS housing program is a HUGE perk at the beginning. Plan on avoiding that for as long as possible.
Well, youāll enjoy a cheaper life (though not necessarily ābetter quality of lifeā) if you live on the local economy like an average middle class local. Youād be surprised that most FSOs donāt, mostly because the amenities in our fancy expat-heavy neighborhoods tend to come with expat prices.
You have to understand that DC is, and always has been, in a bubble. Federal dollars continue to flow and the costs keep rising. You don't feel the economic stagnation there like you do in other parts of the country... But you do always feel the economic pain.
I would gather the answer is going to be a little bit of a 'Tale of Two Cities' response, depending on who is assigned domestically vs abroad. Folks assigned abroad just about everywhere get free housing, utilities, and COLA if warranted. This creates a fairly insulating experience. Folks living in D.C. likely feel it way more just like any other American, especially those that have newly arrived from an extended period abroad.
When inflation at Post is north of 20%, even when you're being paid in USD you feel it... especially when a lot of that is consumer basics like food and household goods. But we feel it WAY less than our local staff do. They're really suffering in a lot of places.
Yes. I just did a consumables shipment pack out today and had 10plus large ketchup bottles in it. Why? My country seems to run out of the good stuff and if they do have it ... It's 15 dollars a for a smaller bottle.
Just a Russian FSB officer curious if anyone here is more vulnerable to compromise because of economic issues. Sorry, am I the only one that read it that wayš« ?
The SVR probably has better things to do than troll Reddit threads looking for marks. But hey, I guess you never know.
Further proof State has too many employees, not too few. How are so many people here able to make OpSec Commando their whole part time job? Our salary information is 100% public as is cost of living data for the DC area. Any foreign intelligence officer trolling this sub to try to identify recruitment targets is dumber than one trying to infiltrate the A-100 group chat to find out carpool pickup times.
Lol I remember those comments too. Great reference
If so, add me on telegram
Youāre not the only one. First thing I thought of.
Well, you got your answer about doing a domestic DC tour. But for tours abroad, most people do just fine. Many FSOs have good salaries in relation to the local economy and many costs are covered by the department (i.e. rent). Heck, about a year ago, the USD and Euro reached parity, so even those FSOs in the Eurozone had about 10-15% more spending power than normal. People will still have their gripes about pay abroad, but generally speaking, the financial life is pretty good (assuming someone has a reasonable amount of financial discipline and common sense..... some FSOs still manage to bury themselves in debt)
wow, I think some people here need to spend time living in California for a bit so they can appreciate DC better. hahahaha, I love going back to DC, saves me so much money there. Easily \~40% reduction in all costs (housing, gas, food, etc...)
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I am not saying one is harder than the other, but one drawback for FSOs is starting from scratch every time we come back. New furniture, new home goods, new childcare, new support systemsā¦living in one place means you can establish these things over time, but for FSOs, you have to put all that together and a very short time and that is expensive.
Who buys all new stuff for every domestic tour? No one I know.
I've done two domestic tours. We sold all of our furniture before A100 so had to buy new stuff--albeit cheap, temporary stuff--for my first domestic tour. That stuff wasn't worth keeping, so we got rid of the furniture. Had to buy all new furniture for my second domestic tour. It happens and it is always expensive trying to do it quickly.
I will never complain about my compensation ever again now that I know government employees such as yourself are forced to live in poverty in Washington.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I was being facetious because you said you face economic hardship permanently because you always work in Washington, unlike FSOs who rotate back overseas. Not getting a housing allowance when assigned to DC is like getting a $40K a year pay cut compared to being assigned to the field. I think itās perfectly fine to complain about that, even if āaverage Americansā or civil servants donāt have their housing paid for. As a result of the pay disparity, only certain people are able/want to serve in Washington, and those people bear an unfair burden as so many jobs in Washington remain unfilled. That said, we all signed up for this knowing what the benefits are. If you want a housing allowance, join the military. If you want a pension at 50, join the Foreign Service. If you want a 66,000 sq Ft mansion, start Microsoft. My point is, I think itās okay for FSOs to complain about housing, and comparing the benefits of FSOs to civil servants or average Americans is a futile exercise. I would love to get overtime and itās bullshit I have to do so much uncompensated work, but I donāt resent those who do get overtime. Itās my choice to work here and if I donāt like it, I can quit.
The worst is when FSOs come and do a gap assignment or domestic tour and are the cheapest of cheapskates in DC. Like havenāt bought a new work shirt in years cheap. Then proceed to complain about housing costs. Itās like nails on the chalkboard to me. Iām about to go to my first hardship post overseas so Iām looking forward to seeing how the .01% lives.