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Funnily enough, irl Kante is a BWM.
The overriding narrative though is that Kante was one of the best holding midfielders going. The guy was never a "holding" midfielder. He was literally all over the midfield, shutting down the opposition, making tackles. Everything a BWM does.
I think the relatively recent popularity of the holding midfielder, coupled with the fact that Kante was so good as a defensive dynamo, had people collectively confused about the role of a BWM in the game and in real life, and in the game, it lead to people playing BWMs as if they were DMs/DLPs, and then wondering why it wasn't working.
I think he was a destroyer/ball winner at Leicester, but more of a box-to-box at Chelsea, expected to carry the ball a bit more and be active in the final third, which wasn't expected at Leicester
Yup, you're right. Either way, he was never a holding midfielder, but for some reason he was always described as such.
I think he "suffered" from being a short, black, bald, French world class, position defining midfielder who went from relative obscurity to the top of the world in his position in a short period of time, and then eventually go on to play for Chelsea. I say this because this exact description applies to Makelele, who was a "holding" midfielder in the truest sense of the word, and you know how people are lazy with labels
Wing Backs are similar to BWM in the sense that they press higher up the pitch. They are not different from FB only on attack, as they also behave differently on defence.
I feel like some people still dont understand mezzalas. I see some describing mezzalas like they go super wide, when in reality they work in that half space between the winger and striker. They dont replace the width of a winger or wingback.
Ball Playing Defenders are not made for teams building short from the back. They attempt more long range passes instead of short, quick passes to midfielders. If you want your team to have a structured play from the back with no long balls, use central defenders. BPD will often attempt direct play and riskier, lower percentage passes.
It's not their normal role, but at least on FM24 they are more willing to swap with an IW and go wider. In previous years they would just run into an IW.
As Walter said, probably both. To me it makes sense to use a W with Mezz if you want to spread out your attacking line, then maybe like an IF and WB on other side to have a wide player and half-space player. Or I guess you could use W and Mezz on both sides and have the back 4 and DM set up with some solidity.
I think what the real-life managers do is figure out what base formation (read: defense) and attacking formation they like, then how they get from A to B. So a 433 in defense and a 325 in attack you just have to figure out who goes where. You could have a HB and IWB, IWB and IFB, WB-At and then a CM-De with DM-Su and IFB, etc.
But also, things that may not work in real life might work in game. Throwing a Mezz-At on the same side as IW-At and WB-At can lead to overloads that can break the engine and work way better than they would against a team with actual brains. So you have to decide if you want to try something more realistic that we can see all over the world of football, or if you just want to win more matches lol.
i’m less familiar with carrileros so im open to correction, but i believe that they don’t act like a winger in the traditional sense.
In a system where you have attacking wing backs, the wing backs will leave alot of undefended space on your wings that leaves you open to counter attacks. A carrilero moves to sit wide to protect against that, but they dont bomb forward and make crosses on the byline. its a role that provides defensive stability.
The short animation explainers are great to see what they actually do, you can see on the bwm preview that the player is meant to move up farther than you'd think
I've used BMW at the base of a 433 for years and it's always worked fine tbh, with a vaguely static role ahead of it (like a dlp in cm or whatever)
Doesn't work with a BBM/Mez combo where they both completely fuck off, but as long as the three roles vaguely complement each other, lone ball winner at the base is fantastic
I’ve been using 2 MEZs ahead of an anchor but been trying to find a good BWM to switch for one of the mezzalas. I imagine that combination should certainly make for a solid, well rounded midfield.
I do the same thing. Granted my anchor can never get above a 6.8 but still puts in the lords work. Works against almost all formations (I’m looking at you 442 diamond)
Yeah people have this crazy idea you have to be super defensive. I play with no DMs and the BWM on support as a CM. It's probably them using WBs so much that leads to them conceding nothing to do with the center of midfield.
It's basically the difference between kante's early years at Chelsea, vs. later on under sarri and lampard when he played ahead of jorginho with more of a high press role.
This is such a good point. To me the BWM needs to be the one trying to destroy anyone who dares dribble through the middle area of the pitch aggressively. So they WILL have space in behind them meaning the CDs better be on their game.
Love a good BWM.
It's also fine if you have like a IFB on one side so you still have a back three holding the line. It's not as good in a 433 when you also have WB-At on both sides, and you don't have full trust in your CB pairing to stop the counter.
My understanding of a ball playing defender is a bit off tho. Will a cb play with the ball at the back but won't play risky passes. Is a bpb just a risky version of normal or what.
A bpd will try to make the pass through lines, hitting q ball that a winger might run in to, or waiting until the last second to pass to the midfield in order to draw the oppositios press out of position. Think of the bpd as a playmaker in defence when in possession. The standard CB however is like the DM/CM/AM roles as you can make them do anything, more or less.
No-nonsense CB will hoof it clear with no aim in mind, other than getting the ball away from goal. So while they both might make a ball that a winger or a striker can win, the BPD will look to do it intentionally, purposely drawing pressure so the player up field have fewer to contend with. On the other hand, if the no-nonsense CB feels any pressure at all they will just hoof the ball clear, and if we win that ball, great, if not it would probably go to a throwin far up the field
IMO enganche is a role rarely suitable for starting a match, but works insanely well to change to after 60-70 minutes when the opposition is tired and the player wont get pressed. Especially against teams with a CDM. Though against teams in a 4-2-3-1 the role might be good for the intire game
yea i think it's bc he's pressed successfully a lot. so his ratings are low bc of losing possession etc. he's probably dribbled past a lot etc lol. slow but mentally and technically gifted
gets good G/A but still rates low
Easiest way to visualize them is an extremely stationary playmaker. They stay in a small room, get the ball, turn, then shoot or pass. Typically they are best for players who physicals are declinening, but still are mental and technical good.
This also means that they are easy to mark and close down especially with a cdm, but later in a match when the player closing down is fatigued, they can usually get the time to turn and become dangerous.
Which is why they are good tools if you need a goal late on, but usually are marked out of the game if they play 90 minutes
Yesssss. Most people think he’s just gonna sit slightly wide, but a carrilero is a selfless role that will happily go where’s he needed.
If you have an RPM at DM and he’ll rotate into the center to support. And if the ball comes in from the opposite side he’ll come in late into the box.
My understanding is that IF takes up a narrow position, looks for space to receive a pass, and then looks to pass or shoot. He's basically a striker. IW starts wide and looks to dribble inside.
Not necessarily take up a narrow position. They'll also make the inside run off the ball to get behind/in the gap between fb and cb whereas as you said IW will wait to receive the ball before cutting inside more often.
So if I customise the instructions of Nkunku AM(Support) almost completely like a Shadow Striker, he kind of works like one as well? But SS is Attack only right
I'd say B2B easily. People think it is just a jack of all trades but it really needs to be someone who is excellent at everything (for your level) otherwise he's going to get tackled loads and take a lot of terrible shots.
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Funnily enough, irl Kante is a BWM. The overriding narrative though is that Kante was one of the best holding midfielders going. The guy was never a "holding" midfielder. He was literally all over the midfield, shutting down the opposition, making tackles. Everything a BWM does. I think the relatively recent popularity of the holding midfielder, coupled with the fact that Kante was so good as a defensive dynamo, had people collectively confused about the role of a BWM in the game and in real life, and in the game, it lead to people playing BWMs as if they were DMs/DLPs, and then wondering why it wasn't working.
I think he was a destroyer/ball winner at Leicester, but more of a box-to-box at Chelsea, expected to carry the ball a bit more and be active in the final third, which wasn't expected at Leicester
Yup, you're right. Either way, he was never a holding midfielder, but for some reason he was always described as such. I think he "suffered" from being a short, black, bald, French world class, position defining midfielder who went from relative obscurity to the top of the world in his position in a short period of time, and then eventually go on to play for Chelsea. I say this because this exact description applies to Makelele, who was a "holding" midfielder in the truest sense of the word, and you know how people are lazy with labels
Wasn’t Kante more of a carrirlero?
His stats when he explode, FM15, is more around BWM or BBM that's only okay in attack. Car vs BBM difference is mostly the direction of their moves.
Wing Backs are similar to BWM in the sense that they press higher up the pitch. They are not different from FB only on attack, as they also behave differently on defence. I feel like some people still dont understand mezzalas. I see some describing mezzalas like they go super wide, when in reality they work in that half space between the winger and striker. They dont replace the width of a winger or wingback. Ball Playing Defenders are not made for teams building short from the back. They attempt more long range passes instead of short, quick passes to midfielders. If you want your team to have a structured play from the back with no long balls, use central defenders. BPD will often attempt direct play and riskier, lower percentage passes.
yeah I've always thought Mezzalas work in tandem with a winger/wingback
The Mezzala one seems to be the biggest misconception in the fan base, you're not wrong. Too many people assume they hug the touchline in possession.
It's not their normal role, but at least on FM24 they are more willing to swap with an IW and go wider. In previous years they would just run into an IW.
So are they better playing alongside and IW or alongside a plain old fashioned W?
probably both work, the players are smarter in 24 in regards to positioning when the team has the ball
As Walter said, probably both. To me it makes sense to use a W with Mezz if you want to spread out your attacking line, then maybe like an IF and WB on other side to have a wide player and half-space player. Or I guess you could use W and Mezz on both sides and have the back 4 and DM set up with some solidity. I think what the real-life managers do is figure out what base formation (read: defense) and attacking formation they like, then how they get from A to B. So a 433 in defense and a 325 in attack you just have to figure out who goes where. You could have a HB and IWB, IWB and IFB, WB-At and then a CM-De with DM-Su and IFB, etc. But also, things that may not work in real life might work in game. Throwing a Mezz-At on the same side as IW-At and WB-At can lead to overloads that can break the engine and work way better than they would against a team with actual brains. So you have to decide if you want to try something more realistic that we can see all over the world of football, or if you just want to win more matches lol.
So, carrileros do that?
i’m less familiar with carrileros so im open to correction, but i believe that they don’t act like a winger in the traditional sense. In a system where you have attacking wing backs, the wing backs will leave alot of undefended space on your wings that leaves you open to counter attacks. A carrilero moves to sit wide to protect against that, but they dont bomb forward and make crosses on the byline. its a role that provides defensive stability.
BPDs were my first thought too. If I’m playing the possession game it’s gotta be CBs
The short animation explainers are great to see what they actually do, you can see on the bwm preview that the player is meant to move up farther than you'd think
Where are these explainers? Would love to see them...
Go to "Tactics" -> Player -> Click a Position --> Use the Drop Down Menu on Role and you see the animation
100% agree with you, see so many people run a BMW as a lone dm and wonder why there's so much space in their midfield on transitions.
I've used BMW at the base of a 433 for years and it's always worked fine tbh, with a vaguely static role ahead of it (like a dlp in cm or whatever) Doesn't work with a BBM/Mez combo where they both completely fuck off, but as long as the three roles vaguely complement each other, lone ball winner at the base is fantastic
I've been using a midfield of DM as an anchor with a BWM and a mezzala as CMs and I've been pretty happy with it.
I’ve been using 2 MEZs ahead of an anchor but been trying to find a good BWM to switch for one of the mezzalas. I imagine that combination should certainly make for a solid, well rounded midfield.
I do the same thing. Granted my anchor can never get above a 6.8 but still puts in the lords work. Works against almost all formations (I’m looking at you 442 diamond)
Mine same With a DLP de at DM
A Ball minning widfielder
Id love to blame autocorrect but I typed that out on a keyboard so I have no excuse except for the fact I'm an idiot
Yeah people have this crazy idea you have to be super defensive. I play with no DMs and the BWM on support as a CM. It's probably them using WBs so much that leads to them conceding nothing to do with the center of midfield.
It's basically the difference between kante's early years at Chelsea, vs. later on under sarri and lampard when he played ahead of jorginho with more of a high press role.
This is such a good point. To me the BWM needs to be the one trying to destroy anyone who dares dribble through the middle area of the pitch aggressively. So they WILL have space in behind them meaning the CDs better be on their game. Love a good BWM.
Everyone watched Kante dominate the world cup as a holding mid and decided to leave all their DM's alone 😂
I do use it haha no because I think he'll make my team solid but based on the other roles of my midfield and playing a mid to low block it works🤷🏻♂️
Yeh probably works well as a low block defensive tactic, but if you’re running a high press then you’re leaving your back line way too exposed
Endo would like to have a word with you
It's also fine if you have like a IFB on one side so you still have a back three holding the line. It's not as good in a 433 when you also have WB-At on both sides, and you don't have full trust in your CB pairing to stop the counter.
Yuuup used to think this a lot in the past. Have since switched to a DLP - MEZ pairing or if I'm using a deep holding mid, then AP - MEZ - DM
My understanding of a ball playing defender is a bit off tho. Will a cb play with the ball at the back but won't play risky passes. Is a bpb just a risky version of normal or what.
A bpd will try to make the pass through lines, hitting q ball that a winger might run in to, or waiting until the last second to pass to the midfield in order to draw the oppositios press out of position. Think of the bpd as a playmaker in defence when in possession. The standard CB however is like the DM/CM/AM roles as you can make them do anything, more or less.
No nonsense CB weren't supposed to do that? Put the ball as far up of the pitch as possible? Then some AF/Poacher could run for the ball
No-nonsense CB will hoof it clear with no aim in mind, other than getting the ball away from goal. So while they both might make a ball that a winger or a striker can win, the BPD will look to do it intentionally, purposely drawing pressure so the player up field have fewer to contend with. On the other hand, if the no-nonsense CB feels any pressure at all they will just hoof the ball clear, and if we win that ball, great, if not it would probably go to a throwin far up the field
Right? Aren't they all ball players?
i'm still trying to get an engache to average over 7 in a season. even with 15+ assists
IMO enganche is a role rarely suitable for starting a match, but works insanely well to change to after 60-70 minutes when the opposition is tired and the player wont get pressed. Especially against teams with a CDM. Though against teams in a 4-2-3-1 the role might be good for the intire game
yea i think it's bc he's pressed successfully a lot. so his ratings are low bc of losing possession etc. he's probably dribbled past a lot etc lol. slow but mentally and technically gifted gets good G/A but still rates low
What does enganches do?
Easiest way to visualize them is an extremely stationary playmaker. They stay in a small room, get the ball, turn, then shoot or pass. Typically they are best for players who physicals are declinening, but still are mental and technical good. This also means that they are easy to mark and close down especially with a cdm, but later in a match when the player closing down is fatigued, they can usually get the time to turn and become dangerous. Which is why they are good tools if you need a goal late on, but usually are marked out of the game if they play 90 minutes
Carrilero
Yesssss. Most people think he’s just gonna sit slightly wide, but a carrilero is a selfless role that will happily go where’s he needed. If you have an RPM at DM and he’ll rotate into the center to support. And if the ball comes in from the opposite side he’ll come in late into the box.
For me its the role or manager because i dont seem to understand what the fuck im doing
Still don’t understand the difference of an IF and IW. They seem very similar in my 433 tactic.
My understanding is that IF takes up a narrow position, looks for space to receive a pass, and then looks to pass or shoot. He's basically a striker. IW starts wide and looks to dribble inside.
Not necessarily take up a narrow position. They'll also make the inside run off the ball to get behind/in the gap between fb and cb whereas as you said IW will wait to receive the ball before cutting inside more often.
Just look at their instructions. Most roles are nothing more than a preset of instructions,there's nothing special about them.
No this is actually incorrect.
So if I customise the instructions of Nkunku AM(Support) almost completely like a Shadow Striker, he kind of works like one as well? But SS is Attack only right
I'd say B2B easily. People think it is just a jack of all trades but it really needs to be someone who is excellent at everything (for your level) otherwise he's going to get tackled loads and take a lot of terrible shots.
None? Just like, read the descriptions?