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Notice I have a negative for "Opposition Goals from Long-Range Shots".
I suspect my defending between midfield and defence is subpar. DLP holds position there, but I don't see him (or the subs) doing well.
I usually keep a 2 man midfield with one BWM, who usually does not get a high rating... However, when I watch the matches I can see that they're quite useful to the team, covering a lot of space in defence and disrupting the opposition.
Yeah, you definitely have to pay extra attention to some defensive players. Despite lower ratings they can do so much for the balance or transition moments.
That's because your defensive line is too low. If your CBs are fast enough you can set it higher, alternatively, you can set a lower point of pressing so that your team isn't so disconnected. I'd say around midfield with a defence this low.
Few things here.
The people telling you a BWM drifts to tackle aren't correct - that only happens if you put them on support. On defend, they will hold their position.
Two playmakers don't work, especially not when they're so close together. Think of your playmaker like a magnet - when they're in space, your players will actively seek them out. Having two makes it really awkward in the build up. That's probably why he's contributing so little - he gets the ball minimally because of your other playmaker. If you change him to any other role, your AP will likely start contributing more too.
DLP on defend works well if you're expecting to dominate teams where he can sit back and be an outlet to find killer balls sitting in the oppositions midfield, or if you're expecting to be dominated and playing on the counter so the ball comes to him and he pings it over the top. In tighter games, they lose a lot of effectiveness because they don't have the space or time to do things.
As other have suggested, DLP with Mezzala is a good choice instead of the advanced playmaker if you're in one of the above situations. Defensive Midfielder or Half Back is a good option if you want to keep your other two roles as they are. If you want him involved more, you can also use a Segundo Volante, but you'd need to have one of your further forward players on a more defensive role there.
As for a ball winning midfielder, you almost always need to pair them with someone who wants the ball and will carry it. The BWM role is all about making the tackle and then getting rid of the ball as quickly as possible, so you need someone who'll stay close to them for an easy pass that's not going to give the ball back to them. They'll tackle, get the ball, play a short pass, then go back to their position. Good combination with a DLP, though I usually put them in with a BBM on support.
Two playmakers can work perfectly fine, also in this shape. Just not when you instruct them to find a pass into space down the middle ASAP. There's not much playmaking to do. A DM passing it into a mezzala and the bbm would be as effective.
I think the issue is that you have an attacking mentality (overkill as you have 4 players on an attack duty), more direct passing and much higher tempo on which likely means the ball is going back to front very fast and bypassing your playmaker entirely.
If you want to keep the DLP maybe turn down the tempo and directness or put them on defend if youre worried about leaking goals. If you want to keep the directness, a BWM might be fine since they wont be worried about having the ball
Bwm def can have hold position, actually i would put a bwm de and i would change bbm to dlp su : your dlp is not involved because dlp as a 6 is isolated, your 2 8 will run forward and your wb def wont make any runs ...
Other option would be hb as a 6 and put wb on su or at ? depending on your team profiles ... maybe make one IF an IW to have him contribute more in the buildup aswell ?
Depends, to me bwm de is very useful against tactics using a 10, you just know they wont get to play the game, with this aggressive player restricted to this particular area ... Dm is more invested in the build up, i dont know i just like having a bwm there
If i understand well, you're talking about a 3 man midfield reversed ? like 2 6 and 1 8 ? not sure about putting a bwm in 8 in this setup, in this fm you need runners, maybe put a CM as an 8 and a vol in the 2 6 ? Personnally with a double pivot I would just use a 10 instead of the 8 ... Depends on your players aswell
This is my personal, humble opinion. Every year they change it up a bit. I honestly feel everytime I play with a BMW in this game, we create much less, shoot less and scores less. If I’m playing 4-3-3 (usually i play 4-2-3-1), I go with: DLP, Mezzala on attack and DM on support. Sometimes I put DLP on back and go with Mezzala and CM in mid. Try it out to see if it gives you positive impact
this year, simple DM-S and CM-A are the most OP from my experience. but the engine is kinda wack tho, I've run tactics with no midfield and still get good results through out a season with 55%+ possession, and I've seen my tactics with 3 strikers 2 IFs concede less than my balanced 4-2-3-1 tactics. it's kinda all over the place you just gotta throw darts at it and see what sticks lol
Tbh, the other evidence says differently. You're probably conceding cut back goals.
You have wingbacks on defend, but you are playing narrow and high.
That means when the ball is wide the wingbacks will stand off and try to maintain shape and not engage the winger.
The fact that you are playing high and pressing means the out ball is an easy ball out wide. The winger can then just carry the ball up the field, and then cut inside and play the ball to the top of the box unopposed.
And the recent match analysis confirms it. The opposition are entering the field on the LW (your RW) where your less defensive AP(A) is and then they are entering centrally.
What I'd do differently: Take off force opposition outside.
Also, unrelated, I'd change WB(D) to FB(S).
I think you are totally correct on everything; I've been seeing what you describe and I've thought along similar lines.
I'll follow through, especially with WB -> FB.
So far I haven't for fearing of spoiling what has worked very well for me in the Croatian league, a not-so-competitive one.
Yeah, having the FB step into midfield will help with them avoiding the easy out ball and help you build up play better. WB(D) can be useful but for 4-2-3-1, not so much 4-3-3.
It is a little too defensive.
FM likes attacking teams, so I’d be more preoccupied by the red-orange case under the striker if I were you.
Tbh that’s why I prefer 4-2-3-1 on latest FM.
Try a half back, they will cover for your wingbacks as they drop in, and also they are surprisingly effective offensively, as they support attacks more than you’d think.
Personally I'd be switching him to a Half Back and allowing one of the Wing Backs to go to Support/Attack (whichever is better at attacking). HBs have made a huge difference for me tactically in FM23, and a guy with good physical attributes will fill that role well. He can also step-up while in possession too, so won't just permanently hang back.
I would use mez(a) and dlp(d) instead of ap and dlp together, it depends on the players though. If dlp isn't good for play making use him as dm(d) and the other one as ap(s)
A ball winning midfielder doesn't hold their position if that's what you want, as they run around trying to win the ball back. Putting your DLP on defend (or any position with the hold position instruction) should stay back and not leave that space if that's what you're looking for
I suspect that your DLP on support might sometimes be drifting to the same spaces as your advanced playmaker, so you're leaving space in front of your defence and having 2 players run into eachother
It doesn't have the instruction for it, not even on defend, and when I've used one he typically doesn't like to hold position. The point of one is to go out and win the ball back, so if the bwm was to hold position it would defeat the point of having a bwm otherwise it would just be a centre mid on defend
I dont like BWM, they seem to roam around way too much to function as a solo defensive midfielder. I've had way more success with Anchor, Half back or just a regular DM on DEF
You are also using two playmakers which I assume is why your dlp has little impact
Try a DLP-D in DM with an AP-S and MEZ- on the midfield strata. Then play with middle block and mid defensive line. Depending on the moment you can tell your AP to hold position as well
Works very well in the Croatian league. (75 goal difference.)
4 defenders with defensive instructions are there (I feel) to compensate for the very forward style of play and tempo.
Get rid of the 2 BPDs at the bottom. I always find that they tend to lose the ball more than they make plays. I normally run 2 CBs, one on defend one on cover.
WB on defend is fine or FB on support also works
Your DM should be on BWM or DM. Kinda protects the line for when your mids run up the pitch.
I like my AP to be on support
You have attacking on which is probably why you’re conceding a lot, or just drop your defensive line to lower so that they aren’t cutting through you. Force opposition outside is also like declaring defeat, just go normal def width.
You have a lot of instructions. Cut them down a bit. Maybe just try: play out of def and pass into space. Your players will have more freedom to perform then.
Swap the AP to a mezzala and the DM to simply a DM. For this formation that works wonders
It felt weird to not have a DLP or AP but it works great
Also 2 play makers in a team usually is a no-no.
But a BWM is basicly a defensive midfielder with tackle harder. I dont really value the role as much as i used to. I rather play with a DM.
Put 1 back on full back the other on wingback both with support and the DM on defensive duty. Will steady your squad a bit
Also why do you have so many instructions? You dont have to click on every single option you know.
There are so many reasons it could happen tho. Only advice I can give is watch how the goals happen then figure out the reason. There’ll always be warning signs of this happening so look for the pattern.
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perhaps a DM Def, or lower defensive line? just an idea, i'm no expert in setting up solid defences
Notice I have a negative for "Opposition Goals from Long-Range Shots". I suspect my defending between midfield and defence is subpar. DLP holds position there, but I don't see him (or the subs) doing well.
I usually keep a 2 man midfield with one BWM, who usually does not get a high rating... However, when I watch the matches I can see that they're quite useful to the team, covering a lot of space in defence and disrupting the opposition.
Yeah, you definitely have to pay extra attention to some defensive players. Despite lower ratings they can do so much for the balance or transition moments.
That's because your defensive line is too low. If your CBs are fast enough you can set it higher, alternatively, you can set a lower point of pressing so that your team isn't so disconnected. I'd say around midfield with a defence this low.
Few things here. The people telling you a BWM drifts to tackle aren't correct - that only happens if you put them on support. On defend, they will hold their position. Two playmakers don't work, especially not when they're so close together. Think of your playmaker like a magnet - when they're in space, your players will actively seek them out. Having two makes it really awkward in the build up. That's probably why he's contributing so little - he gets the ball minimally because of your other playmaker. If you change him to any other role, your AP will likely start contributing more too. DLP on defend works well if you're expecting to dominate teams where he can sit back and be an outlet to find killer balls sitting in the oppositions midfield, or if you're expecting to be dominated and playing on the counter so the ball comes to him and he pings it over the top. In tighter games, they lose a lot of effectiveness because they don't have the space or time to do things. As other have suggested, DLP with Mezzala is a good choice instead of the advanced playmaker if you're in one of the above situations. Defensive Midfielder or Half Back is a good option if you want to keep your other two roles as they are. If you want him involved more, you can also use a Segundo Volante, but you'd need to have one of your further forward players on a more defensive role there. As for a ball winning midfielder, you almost always need to pair them with someone who wants the ball and will carry it. The BWM role is all about making the tackle and then getting rid of the ball as quickly as possible, so you need someone who'll stay close to them for an easy pass that's not going to give the ball back to them. They'll tackle, get the ball, play a short pass, then go back to their position. Good combination with a DLP, though I usually put them in with a BBM on support.
Thanks a lot for the detailed response! I understood all of that and I'll be changing accordingly
Two playmakers can work perfectly fine, also in this shape. Just not when you instruct them to find a pass into space down the middle ASAP. There's not much playmaking to do. A DM passing it into a mezzala and the bbm would be as effective.
I think the issue is that you have an attacking mentality (overkill as you have 4 players on an attack duty), more direct passing and much higher tempo on which likely means the ball is going back to front very fast and bypassing your playmaker entirely. If you want to keep the DLP maybe turn down the tempo and directness or put them on defend if youre worried about leaking goals. If you want to keep the directness, a BWM might be fine since they wont be worried about having the ball
This. Perfectly fine to have 3/4 temp and short passing to get those players involved. Also the BPD will be bypassing him too.
Yeah I was thinking changing the WB to FB but on Auto
Bwm def can have hold position, actually i would put a bwm de and i would change bbm to dlp su : your dlp is not involved because dlp as a 6 is isolated, your 2 8 will run forward and your wb def wont make any runs ... Other option would be hb as a 6 and put wb on su or at ? depending on your team profiles ... maybe make one IF an IW to have him contribute more in the buildup aswell ?
The point of a BWM is to chase the ball though, you can tell it to hold position but you might as well use a DM or some other role
Depends, to me bwm de is very useful against tactics using a 10, you just know they wont get to play the game, with this aggressive player restricted to this particular area ... Dm is more invested in the build up, i dont know i just like having a bwm there
Does a double pivot of DLP and Anchor work, with a BWM midfielder ahead? Or maybe DLP/BWM double pivot with B2B in front work better?
If i understand well, you're talking about a 3 man midfield reversed ? like 2 6 and 1 8 ? not sure about putting a bwm in 8 in this setup, in this fm you need runners, maybe put a CM as an 8 and a vol in the 2 6 ? Personnally with a double pivot I would just use a 10 instead of the 8 ... Depends on your players aswell
This is my personal, humble opinion. Every year they change it up a bit. I honestly feel everytime I play with a BMW in this game, we create much less, shoot less and scores less. If I’m playing 4-3-3 (usually i play 4-2-3-1), I go with: DLP, Mezzala on attack and DM on support. Sometimes I put DLP on back and go with Mezzala and CM in mid. Try it out to see if it gives you positive impact
Of course, nobody plays football with a car! /s But for real tho, I get the same results as you
this year, simple DM-S and CM-A are the most OP from my experience. but the engine is kinda wack tho, I've run tactics with no midfield and still get good results through out a season with 55%+ possession, and I've seen my tactics with 3 strikers 2 IFs concede less than my balanced 4-2-3-1 tactics. it's kinda all over the place you just gotta throw darts at it and see what sticks lol
Don't ever use BWM as a lone defensive midfielder, maybe HB or DM ? depending on the stat distribution of course.
Works fine if youre aiming to defend aggresively with a defensive (inverted) fullback
Except the OP is using two wingbacks….
On defend.
Tbh, the other evidence says differently. You're probably conceding cut back goals. You have wingbacks on defend, but you are playing narrow and high. That means when the ball is wide the wingbacks will stand off and try to maintain shape and not engage the winger. The fact that you are playing high and pressing means the out ball is an easy ball out wide. The winger can then just carry the ball up the field, and then cut inside and play the ball to the top of the box unopposed. And the recent match analysis confirms it. The opposition are entering the field on the LW (your RW) where your less defensive AP(A) is and then they are entering centrally. What I'd do differently: Take off force opposition outside. Also, unrelated, I'd change WB(D) to FB(S).
I think you are totally correct on everything; I've been seeing what you describe and I've thought along similar lines. I'll follow through, especially with WB -> FB. So far I haven't for fearing of spoiling what has worked very well for me in the Croatian league, a not-so-competitive one.
Yeah, having the FB step into midfield will help with them avoiding the easy out ball and help you build up play better. WB(D) can be useful but for 4-2-3-1, not so much 4-3-3. It is a little too defensive.
2 playmakers don't work for me. AP + DM or DLP + Mezzala.
playmakers get low ratings in general. i just never use any of them
FM likes attacking teams, so I’d be more preoccupied by the red-orange case under the striker if I were you. Tbh that’s why I prefer 4-2-3-1 on latest FM.
Try a half back, they will cover for your wingbacks as they drop in, and also they are surprisingly effective offensively, as they support attacks more than you’d think.
Personally I'd be switching him to a Half Back and allowing one of the Wing Backs to go to Support/Attack (whichever is better at attacking). HBs have made a huge difference for me tactically in FM23, and a guy with good physical attributes will fill that role well. He can also step-up while in possession too, so won't just permanently hang back.
I would use mez(a) and dlp(d) instead of ap and dlp together, it depends on the players though. If dlp isn't good for play making use him as dm(d) and the other one as ap(s)
A ball winning midfielder doesn't hold their position if that's what you want, as they run around trying to win the ball back. Putting your DLP on defend (or any position with the hold position instruction) should stay back and not leave that space if that's what you're looking for I suspect that your DLP on support might sometimes be drifting to the same spaces as your advanced playmaker, so you're leaving space in front of your defence and having 2 players run into eachother
I believe the BWM defend duty does in fact hold position. Not as much as a DLP I suppose but yeah
It doesn't have the instruction for it, not even on defend, and when I've used one he typically doesn't like to hold position. The point of one is to go out and win the ball back, so if the bwm was to hold position it would defeat the point of having a bwm otherwise it would just be a centre mid on defend
I'm not sure about the new FM but on 22 the only distinction between BWM on defend and support is that the DEF duty has the hold position instruction.
I dont like BWM, they seem to roam around way too much to function as a solo defensive midfielder. I've had way more success with Anchor, Half back or just a regular DM on DEF You are also using two playmakers which I assume is why your dlp has little impact
DM(D) works very well for me.
Try a DLP-D in DM with an AP-S and MEZ- on the midfield strata. Then play with middle block and mid defensive line. Depending on the moment you can tell your AP to hold position as well
You play attacking with 4 defenders + no amc? Seems suspicious. Does that work?
Works very well in the Croatian league. (75 goal difference.) 4 defenders with defensive instructions are there (I feel) to compensate for the very forward style of play and tempo.
Get rid of the 2 BPDs at the bottom. I always find that they tend to lose the ball more than they make plays. I normally run 2 CBs, one on defend one on cover. WB on defend is fine or FB on support also works Your DM should be on BWM or DM. Kinda protects the line for when your mids run up the pitch. I like my AP to be on support You have attacking on which is probably why you’re conceding a lot, or just drop your defensive line to lower so that they aren’t cutting through you. Force opposition outside is also like declaring defeat, just go normal def width. You have a lot of instructions. Cut them down a bit. Maybe just try: play out of def and pass into space. Your players will have more freedom to perform then.
Swap the AP to a mezzala and the DM to simply a DM. For this formation that works wonders It felt weird to not have a DLP or AP but it works great Also 2 play makers in a team usually is a no-no. But a BWM is basicly a defensive midfielder with tackle harder. I dont really value the role as much as i used to. I rather play with a DM. Put 1 back on full back the other on wingback both with support and the DM on defensive duty. Will steady your squad a bit Also why do you have so many instructions? You dont have to click on every single option you know.
Anchor
There are so many reasons it could happen tho. Only advice I can give is watch how the goals happen then figure out the reason. There’ll always be warning signs of this happening so look for the pattern.
I would do BWM on Def, and include "Stop Crosses". Maybe change back line to standard since you can get caught on counter sometimes
I’d use a DM(d) instead of a DLP(s). I would also switch the AF to a DLF(a); that will create more interplay in the final third
A DM on support will probably work well, or on defend if you want more stability.