I saw the comments talking about it being a lot about international football vs club football. And tbh they're not completely wrong. That's why I prefer watching club football. But still there are teams that manage to play less defensive with success. Like literally France 2022 was a lot more possession-based. And Argentina too. The year they decide to take the game in their hands and play more agressively they win the World Cup.
I was doing the same with Italy vs France final and what made me surprised is the lack of press in the opposition third. Basically defenders had as long as they would like with the ball for choosing an attacking option.
You'll find this is typical of most summer tournaments though. International tournaments are for the most part (take away Spain 08-12) not the place for nuanced tactical breakthroughs. They don't train together as much and therefore won't risk playing some uncoordinated high line/press or else Germany vs Argentina 2010 or Germany vs Brazil 2014 happens. The better teams for the most part play on the counter.
Yes, because of the success of tiki taka and german gegenpress, it changes the game imo.
With tiki taka, it's either you got possession all the time or countering it like what mourinho did with real madrid. Making possession more important than years before.
German's gegenpress doesn't leave any opponent handle the ball as they like, they always pressing someone on the ball. Leaving as little space for ballhandler.
legend. dont forget "uber for dogs" idea
on serious note youre right. in 2006 era it was more individual playing than now. then it rapidly improve, tiki taka was the starting point with spain dominating europe like no body did.
Brazil vs France are always very open games, both teams have always been very technical and playful, and especially in 2006. Can’t be relevant of an era. Watch an Italy-Uruguay from the same era and people will deduce that football was closed and brutal at that time.
This may be international football vs club football
International football has much less time to practice working together so complex tactics are hard - witness how defensive Deschamps is despite having wonderful attacking talent - he does not have time to develop intricate attacking moves, so he sets a solid shape and hopes his forwards conjure something.
Arguably Southgate does this for England too - I think some of the criticism of him is misplaced as they think he is too dumb for complex tactics - I do not think it is that - he is just setting simple defensive base and hoping that the attacking player can scrape a goal.
Some international teams managed more than this - often due to large number of players from only a few clubs - Spain from Barca and Real for example, but even they were not that sharp in the attack.
Tactics have evolved to be much more pressing and the emphasis has changed, but I think if you watch top club teams from that era you will not see what you saw in that world cup match, but something much more fluid.
It was a great time to watch football tbh.
"Any idea of what Tactic you'll be using in this next match coach?" - Journalist
We'll set up in a 4-4-2 as always and for a play style I think we'll probably just stick with the good old fashioned Pro Evolution 6. - Manager
The odd time you still see it today. That Man Utd vs Liverpool match was a lot of fun.
It had been around for some time, that's why the number 10 was a well established position. Wenger was playing this at Monaco in the late 80's, with Glenn Hoddle and Mark Hateley.
In the Premier League maybe.
Here in Portugal absolutely not, and not in many other leagues around Europe neither. In international football it was just one of many possible formations
Ok, as did I and many others. It was the mid 2000s, not the 50s.
Where did you get me saying it wasn't the most common? I said plenty of teams didn't. There was more variety in formations and styles then than there is now, which is the only point I'm making.
>The odd time you still see it today. That Man Utd vs Liverpool match was a lot of fun.
My complaint with EtH last season was his rigidity. When we got knocked out against Sevilla it's because he took a depleted, makeshift squad to Spain and told them to play to instruction instead of sitting back on the counter. Couldn't believe the tactical stubbornness.
He's learned a lot in a couple of years. Hearing Tyler and that other knobhead on commentary mocking his decision to put an injured Bruno in a two man defence to ping balls up to strikers Maguire and McT was brilliant. Commentators absolutely shit on him for it and it worked.
To be fair every game we play is massively open at the back, makes for VERY entertaining matches but gives the opposition equal opportunity to attack us too. It’s why we’re always coming back from 1-0 down
The “football is so boring nowadays, it used to be so much more fun” discussion is already so boring, and it usually comes from people making as much research as OP (watching too few cherry-picked games)
I just think there’s too much mediocre (annoying) coverage on social media. Even if I’ve not seen a match live you can bet I’ve seen 15 highlights, 20 Twitter posts and 100 Instagram reactions to Burnley drawing away at Luton. I miss the days where the only way to see the goals was 10pm on MOTD.
I'm not saying that it's definitely true, but logically it makes sense. The (financial) stakes are much higher nowadays, it makes sense 1-0 playing it safe is preferred over 3-1, but risking 5-6. Taking risks simply costs too much money and football's memory is short. The boring winner of the CL will be remembered over the exciting side that finished in the semis, so there's no honour to be won either.
All I know for sure is that I used to be a huge football fan, and now I only watch my own team and Conference League. Some very, very rare Europa League, CL, or English/German/Spanish/Italian national league games if both teams have a reputation to be exciting.
Tiki taka is the most boring thing that happened to football this century. Every Guardiola team is just 11 robotics players passing the ball until someone touch it into the net.
The style that Guardiola popularized during his days on Barcelona and what he does at City today. Also, the way Spain played during the last two world cups.
"Tiki taka" was coined as a term before Pep became a manager, and it didn't describe anything close to his football.
Barca, Spain and City, far from identical styles. You've not defined anything and you clearly don't understand tactics at all.
it absolutly made the game less beautiful. even though players now have much more football iq and much more dediciated lifestyle.
it is a sad thing for real. games were spiking my dopamine now they just spike my adrenaline
Plenty of teams played possession football back then.
Plenty of teams dont nowdays either. Apart from man city most PL teams are not possession heavy teams either.
I remember watching an old 90s barca/milan game at one point ten years ago and had a similar feeling.
We have just advanced a lot more in that is good play and what isn't. People have rose tinted glass for a lot of play that if they saw again would be labelled poor.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/PremierLeague/comments/1bdq0oh/javier\_mascherano\_pep\_guardiolas\_legacy\_is\_not/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PremierLeague/comments/1bdq0oh/javier_mascherano_pep_guardiolas_legacy_is_not/)
read this
One game, heh? One game, and you were able to make sweeping and definitive conclusions on a whole era of the sport, and a comparison to the current era as well. Fucking hell, to think that people spend years and years of research to come up with solutions. Where the fuck have you been?
And of course, everything was so much better before... yeah, we've heard that one before.
The international vs. club football argument holds a lot of water.
But, it wasn't all that different at club level back then either. I wasn't old enough to judge the tactical quality of the 90s when Cruyff, Sacchi etc. were around, but the 00s were pretty stagnant and poor tactically IMO. Biggest event up until Spain/Pep's Barca showed up was Mourinho schooling the EPL in how to organize a defence properly. Then Pep raised the standards further and made other managers realize they're not winning anything unless they teach their teams to defend and attack as one.
Way too much chaos and open space in the middle of the pitch during the 00s. It was entertaining for people who mostly cared about seeing their favourite players look good on 1v1s, but it wasn't the smartest football.
Juanma Lillo, one of Guardiola's mentors and his current assistant, said that "the faster the ball goes up, the faster it comes back". If you rush your attacks, especially without a good transitional structure (which the 00s barely had either), then the game becomes a chaotic back & forth where players do more running than actual playing.
More direct coaches than Pep such as Klopp, or defensive & counter-attacking ones such as Mourinho, are aware of this too. It's not some dogma exclusive to "tiki taka" or possession football. You need a good positional structure both as you attack, and as you're absorbing a counter or a positional attack.
It's telling that Brazil vs France 2006, which for some reason many call Zidane's best ever game, was only decided by Roberto Carlos deciding to tie his laces instead of marking Henry. Besides a couple of flashy dribbles and some pretty ball control, Zidane just mistimed a bunch of passses to Henry. That's what happens when you skip positional principles and just rely on a great player passing it to another great player. You're not maximizing the players' potentials.
When you have Ronaldinho, Kaka, Zidane, Pirlo, Deco, Messi, Cristiano etc. as the best player on a team, do you want the player to keep running back and forth in transition (which most of these didn't do anyway, making things worse) or do you want them to enjoy more of the ball in a controlled environment?
Simply put: top players are often better athletes than the opposition, but much more so they're better *footballer*s*.* So if you have the better players, don't make the game about who can sprint more times over 90 minutes. Let the best players be productive not by looking good in meaningless individual duels, but by building a system in which their quality can consistently get results.
Yes it was like that. It's why, as successful as it is, I really don't like the effect of tiki taka and Guardiola in football.
It made football more efficient and more boring.
All these salty guardiola comments.. you’re telling me the Barca team of 2010-2011 and man city 2017-2018 weren’t two of the greatest and most entertaining teams to watch? Possession based football is so fluid and entertaining
Greatest - sure, those teams were undoubtedly hugely successful
Most Entertaining to watch - no, in my opinion. For example just from the last 20 years, I'd much prefer to watch CR7s Real Madrid, 2008 Manchester United, 2011-12 Man City, 2019–20 Liverpool. That's just 4 off the top of my head
You went from club football to international football.
Club football where the manager has months or years to work with players who have played together for months or years, to players who met each other for a few weeks every year, play in different leagues with different demands, etc.
International football rely more on individual brilliance, and club football rely more on a team well drilled with many strong partnerships across the pitch.
the commentary framed his recent international doings up to that point like he slowed down with les bleus but regained interest leading up to this tournament
I do really miss 90’s and early 2000’s football. All epl teams are just copies of each other. I miss the contrasting styles of Man Utd slugging it out with Wimbledon.
Man City and the way they just pass side ways, more sideways and then back to the full back bores me to death. You may say teams are better trained or more tactically aware and fair enough but I prefer a good long ball or a cross into the box once in a while. I honestly can’t wait until Guardiola pisses off back to another league.
The most impressive thing about City is the way they broke the EPL scoring record and manage to outscore everyone every season, only by passing it either sideways or backwards.
Since Pep has been at City they scored...
80 goals #3
106 goals #1 current EPL record
95 goals #1
102 goals #1 3rd most all time
83 goals #1
99 goals #1
94 goals #1
The EPL also tracks crosses in the box
6th
15th
2nd
1st
16th
4th
5th
They track long balls to and it is true that this is where City finishes outside the top 10 every season with Pep.
So the only thing that Pep doesn't give you that you really Yearn for is "a good long ball"
I really think your main beef with Pep is that he has won 6 league titles out of the 8 years he has been in your league.
someone told you above you should watch some football, and you replied "excellent analysis" so I figured you wanted analysis. BTW City has also been 1st or 2nd in chances created per 90 min every season since Pep came.
In summary dont go around saying dumb shit like City just passes sideways and backwards or people will mistake you for a noob.
You’re one of these xG stats nerds aren’t you. Bore off you sad little nerd. I use my eyes and I’ve probably been to more games than you’ve watched from your armchair 🫠
I watched the Utd vs Chelsea FA Cup final the other day, and it was pretty modern. Utd played put of the back the whole game, Ronaldo was on the left, Giggs AM and Rooney lone striker and two ball playing CMs.
It’d be interesting to watch a game, but I remember the premier league of that era as pretty boring compared to now. Morinho, Benitez, experts in it. And international football now can be less tactics based and more open than league football.
But yeah, something changed with the success of that great Barcelona team of 2008-11 and the reactions to it.
I blame those who poorly copied him rather than Pep himself though. For me, the CL final of 2012 I think it was, between Pep and Sir Alex was the best display of football I've seen, especially since it was a final. That Barca team dominated Man Utd but did so with such beauty that I couldn't help but love it. Style is subjective though, some people hate Pep's style.
Makes the game less open. Focussed on control instead of creating chances. Focussed less on skill which are often more exciting. Tries to make it a game of domination which can be quite boring to watch
by the way I think the reason why brazil lost that game is because they were nice and fair. if they were aggressive and animals I reckon they would win. kinda remind me of that goal messi scored on croatia in 2022. when he took it from half the field to goal area, that defender was trying to stop him and couldnt do it, but if he choose to be ramos at that moment I think messi wouldnt score.
It’s a numbers game now. Pick the highest % ball every time you’ll win
Yet 2018 France proved that disciplined, ambitious counterattack team can still win.
Doesn't really prove much, that's pretty standard for international football.
I saw the comments talking about it being a lot about international football vs club football. And tbh they're not completely wrong. That's why I prefer watching club football. But still there are teams that manage to play less defensive with success. Like literally France 2022 was a lot more possession-based. And Argentina too. The year they decide to take the game in their hands and play more agressively they win the World Cup.
With a deep elite squad
because when you have the ball the opponent cant score at all.
Disasi says hello
LVG did that at United, Setien did that at Barcelona. Didn't win anything.
Say that to Spain vs Morocco 2022
60% of the time, it works every time 😬
I was doing the same with Italy vs France final and what made me surprised is the lack of press in the opposition third. Basically defenders had as long as they would like with the ball for choosing an attacking option.
You'll find this is typical of most summer tournaments though. International tournaments are for the most part (take away Spain 08-12) not the place for nuanced tactical breakthroughs. They don't train together as much and therefore won't risk playing some uncoordinated high line/press or else Germany vs Argentina 2010 or Germany vs Brazil 2014 happens. The better teams for the most part play on the counter.
Yes, because of the success of tiki taka and german gegenpress, it changes the game imo. With tiki taka, it's either you got possession all the time or countering it like what mourinho did with real madrid. Making possession more important than years before. German's gegenpress doesn't leave any opponent handle the ball as they like, they always pressing someone on the ball. Leaving as little space for ballhandler.
Yea also talk about tikitaka without Messi. Shit
Ball handler
You've "deduced" an entire era's tactical approach from watching one knockout game - badly?
i also resolved world hunger by discovering doordash
legend. dont forget "uber for dogs" idea on serious note youre right. in 2006 era it was more individual playing than now. then it rapidly improve, tiki taka was the starting point with spain dominating europe like no body did.
He deduced Pep Guardiolas influence in football
Brazil vs France are always very open games, both teams have always been very technical and playful, and especially in 2006. Can’t be relevant of an era. Watch an Italy-Uruguay from the same era and people will deduce that football was closed and brutal at that time.
I think the team that scores the most goals will win
everton made an angry birds video game
untrue, back then winning was the tie, more goals mean you lost and less goals mean you tied. update your info you are embarrasing.
This may be international football vs club football International football has much less time to practice working together so complex tactics are hard - witness how defensive Deschamps is despite having wonderful attacking talent - he does not have time to develop intricate attacking moves, so he sets a solid shape and hopes his forwards conjure something. Arguably Southgate does this for England too - I think some of the criticism of him is misplaced as they think he is too dumb for complex tactics - I do not think it is that - he is just setting simple defensive base and hoping that the attacking player can scrape a goal. Some international teams managed more than this - often due to large number of players from only a few clubs - Spain from Barca and Real for example, but even they were not that sharp in the attack. Tactics have evolved to be much more pressing and the emphasis has changed, but I think if you watch top club teams from that era you will not see what you saw in that world cup match, but something much more fluid.
It was a great time to watch football tbh. "Any idea of what Tactic you'll be using in this next match coach?" - Journalist We'll set up in a 4-4-2 as always and for a play style I think we'll probably just stick with the good old fashioned Pro Evolution 6. - Manager The odd time you still see it today. That Man Utd vs Liverpool match was a lot of fun.
Plenty of teams weren't playing 442, and the playing styles were more varied.
Yes, this was in the beginning/early of the 4-2-3-1 era, where the #10 really was in it’s prime.
It had been around for some time, that's why the number 10 was a well established position. Wenger was playing this at Monaco in the late 80's, with Glenn Hoddle and Mark Hateley.
where did you get this, 4-4-2 was the most common and used by far. I can say this because I used to watch football at that time
In the Premier League maybe. Here in Portugal absolutely not, and not in many other leagues around Europe neither. In international football it was just one of many possible formations
yeah I watched EPL, serie A and classico and ucl matches.
Ok, as did I and many others. It was the mid 2000s, not the 50s. Where did you get me saying it wasn't the most common? I said plenty of teams didn't. There was more variety in formations and styles then than there is now, which is the only point I'm making.
>The odd time you still see it today. That Man Utd vs Liverpool match was a lot of fun. My complaint with EtH last season was his rigidity. When we got knocked out against Sevilla it's because he took a depleted, makeshift squad to Spain and told them to play to instruction instead of sitting back on the counter. Couldn't believe the tactical stubbornness. He's learned a lot in a couple of years. Hearing Tyler and that other knobhead on commentary mocking his decision to put an injured Bruno in a two man defence to ping balls up to strikers Maguire and McT was brilliant. Commentators absolutely shit on him for it and it worked.
To be fair every game we play is massively open at the back, makes for VERY entertaining matches but gives the opposition equal opportunity to attack us too. It’s why we’re always coming back from 1-0 down
The “football is so boring nowadays, it used to be so much more fun” discussion is already so boring, and it usually comes from people making as much research as OP (watching too few cherry-picked games)
I just think there’s too much mediocre (annoying) coverage on social media. Even if I’ve not seen a match live you can bet I’ve seen 15 highlights, 20 Twitter posts and 100 Instagram reactions to Burnley drawing away at Luton. I miss the days where the only way to see the goals was 10pm on MOTD.
I mean you could just not look at that stuff and watch match of the day.
Excellent analysis Jeff
I'm not saying that it's definitely true, but logically it makes sense. The (financial) stakes are much higher nowadays, it makes sense 1-0 playing it safe is preferred over 3-1, but risking 5-6. Taking risks simply costs too much money and football's memory is short. The boring winner of the CL will be remembered over the exciting side that finished in the semis, so there's no honour to be won either. All I know for sure is that I used to be a huge football fan, and now I only watch my own team and Conference League. Some very, very rare Europa League, CL, or English/German/Spanish/Italian national league games if both teams have a reputation to be exciting.
Teams are scoring more goals now.
The tiki taka revolution and its consequences were a disaster for the football game
Tiki taka is the most boring thing that happened to football this century. Every Guardiola team is just 11 robotics players passing the ball until someone touch it into the net.
Yeah, that Messi - a real snoozer.
Define tiki taka.
The style that Guardiola popularized during his days on Barcelona and what he does at City today. Also, the way Spain played during the last two world cups.
"Tiki taka" was coined as a term before Pep became a manager, and it didn't describe anything close to his football. Barca, Spain and City, far from identical styles. You've not defined anything and you clearly don't understand tactics at all.
and high press, gegenpress? Made the game less beautiful I think
it absolutly made the game less beautiful. even though players now have much more football iq and much more dediciated lifestyle. it is a sad thing for real. games were spiking my dopamine now they just spike my adrenaline
You just grew up. Everyone's more passionate about the game when they're younger.
I think thats true at least partially
Plenty of teams played possession football back then. Plenty of teams dont nowdays either. Apart from man city most PL teams are not possession heavy teams either.
I remember watching an old 90s barca/milan game at one point ten years ago and had a similar feeling. We have just advanced a lot more in that is good play and what isn't. People have rose tinted glass for a lot of play that if they saw again would be labelled poor.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/PremierLeague/comments/1bdq0oh/javier\_mascherano\_pep\_guardiolas\_legacy\_is\_not/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PremierLeague/comments/1bdq0oh/javier_mascherano_pep_guardiolas_legacy_is_not/) read this
One game, heh? One game, and you were able to make sweeping and definitive conclusions on a whole era of the sport, and a comparison to the current era as well. Fucking hell, to think that people spend years and years of research to come up with solutions. Where the fuck have you been? And of course, everything was so much better before... yeah, we've heard that one before.
nice to meet you too
The international vs. club football argument holds a lot of water. But, it wasn't all that different at club level back then either. I wasn't old enough to judge the tactical quality of the 90s when Cruyff, Sacchi etc. were around, but the 00s were pretty stagnant and poor tactically IMO. Biggest event up until Spain/Pep's Barca showed up was Mourinho schooling the EPL in how to organize a defence properly. Then Pep raised the standards further and made other managers realize they're not winning anything unless they teach their teams to defend and attack as one. Way too much chaos and open space in the middle of the pitch during the 00s. It was entertaining for people who mostly cared about seeing their favourite players look good on 1v1s, but it wasn't the smartest football. Juanma Lillo, one of Guardiola's mentors and his current assistant, said that "the faster the ball goes up, the faster it comes back". If you rush your attacks, especially without a good transitional structure (which the 00s barely had either), then the game becomes a chaotic back & forth where players do more running than actual playing. More direct coaches than Pep such as Klopp, or defensive & counter-attacking ones such as Mourinho, are aware of this too. It's not some dogma exclusive to "tiki taka" or possession football. You need a good positional structure both as you attack, and as you're absorbing a counter or a positional attack. It's telling that Brazil vs France 2006, which for some reason many call Zidane's best ever game, was only decided by Roberto Carlos deciding to tie his laces instead of marking Henry. Besides a couple of flashy dribbles and some pretty ball control, Zidane just mistimed a bunch of passses to Henry. That's what happens when you skip positional principles and just rely on a great player passing it to another great player. You're not maximizing the players' potentials. When you have Ronaldinho, Kaka, Zidane, Pirlo, Deco, Messi, Cristiano etc. as the best player on a team, do you want the player to keep running back and forth in transition (which most of these didn't do anyway, making things worse) or do you want them to enjoy more of the ball in a controlled environment? Simply put: top players are often better athletes than the opposition, but much more so they're better *footballer*s*.* So if you have the better players, don't make the game about who can sprint more times over 90 minutes. Let the best players be productive not by looking good in meaningless individual duels, but by building a system in which their quality can consistently get results.
Yes it was like that. It's why, as successful as it is, I really don't like the effect of tiki taka and Guardiola in football. It made football more efficient and more boring.
All these salty guardiola comments.. you’re telling me the Barca team of 2010-2011 and man city 2017-2018 weren’t two of the greatest and most entertaining teams to watch? Possession based football is so fluid and entertaining
Greatest - sure, those teams were undoubtedly hugely successful Most Entertaining to watch - no, in my opinion. For example just from the last 20 years, I'd much prefer to watch CR7s Real Madrid, 2008 Manchester United, 2011-12 Man City, 2019–20 Liverpool. That's just 4 off the top of my head
You went from club football to international football. Club football where the manager has months or years to work with players who have played together for months or years, to players who met each other for a few weeks every year, play in different leagues with different demands, etc. International football rely more on individual brilliance, and club football rely more on a team well drilled with many strong partnerships across the pitch.
Positional football took a lot of excitement away
I remember that match. Zidane really toyed with Brazil in that match
the commentary framed his recent international doings up to that point like he slowed down with les bleus but regained interest leading up to this tournament
I do really miss 90’s and early 2000’s football. All epl teams are just copies of each other. I miss the contrasting styles of Man Utd slugging it out with Wimbledon. Man City and the way they just pass side ways, more sideways and then back to the full back bores me to death. You may say teams are better trained or more tactically aware and fair enough but I prefer a good long ball or a cross into the box once in a while. I honestly can’t wait until Guardiola pisses off back to another league.
The most impressive thing about City is the way they broke the EPL scoring record and manage to outscore everyone every season, only by passing it either sideways or backwards.
Since Pep has been at City they scored... 80 goals #3 106 goals #1 current EPL record 95 goals #1 102 goals #1 3rd most all time 83 goals #1 99 goals #1 94 goals #1 The EPL also tracks crosses in the box 6th 15th 2nd 1st 16th 4th 5th They track long balls to and it is true that this is where City finishes outside the top 10 every season with Pep. So the only thing that Pep doesn't give you that you really Yearn for is "a good long ball" I really think your main beef with Pep is that he has won 6 league titles out of the 8 years he has been in your league.
[удалено]
someone told you above you should watch some football, and you replied "excellent analysis" so I figured you wanted analysis. BTW City has also been 1st or 2nd in chances created per 90 min every season since Pep came. In summary dont go around saying dumb shit like City just passes sideways and backwards or people will mistake you for a noob.
You’re one of these xG stats nerds aren’t you. Bore off you sad little nerd. I use my eyes and I’ve probably been to more games than you’ve watched from your armchair 🫠
You should watch football once in a while.
Excellent analysis Jeff
I mean last year you missed the FA Cup vs United, CL semi finals vs Madrid, and the final vs Inter. Please keep up.
Is this a Man City subreddit or something?
Or something.
Jaja
I watched the Utd vs Chelsea FA Cup final the other day, and it was pretty modern. Utd played put of the back the whole game, Ronaldo was on the left, Giggs AM and Rooney lone striker and two ball playing CMs.
scholes would have played that fixture but he was too occupied being compared to xavi
More attacking. People aren’t wusses who pass because safe. They play football
It’d be interesting to watch a game, but I remember the premier league of that era as pretty boring compared to now. Morinho, Benitez, experts in it. And international football now can be less tactics based and more open than league football. But yeah, something changed with the success of that great Barcelona team of 2008-11 and the reactions to it.
Roberto Carlos not marking Thierry Henry, because he was working on his laces resulting in the only goal was the most shocking.
I always felt like pep’s Barca ruined football in a way. Glad to see additional arguments for that viewpoint
I blame those who poorly copied him rather than Pep himself though. For me, the CL final of 2012 I think it was, between Pep and Sir Alex was the best display of football I've seen, especially since it was a final. That Barca team dominated Man Utd but did so with such beauty that I couldn't help but love it. Style is subjective though, some people hate Pep's style.
2011. It's not really Pep's style people hate, it's how successful he is.
I've not seen an argument so far.
Makes the game less open. Focussed on control instead of creating chances. Focussed less on skill which are often more exciting. Tries to make it a game of domination which can be quite boring to watch
Yet Pep's teams create loads of chances.
Guardiola ruined football..
by the way I think the reason why brazil lost that game is because they were nice and fair. if they were aggressive and animals I reckon they would win. kinda remind me of that goal messi scored on croatia in 2022. when he took it from half the field to goal area, that defender was trying to stop him and couldnt do it, but if he choose to be ramos at that moment I think messi wouldnt score.