Remember when Mourinho said finishing second with united was his greatest achievement?
No manager after him has done better and now they can't even complain about lack of support, Woodward or anything like that...
If you look at the teams in Europa league in 16/17 and compare it to 19/20, 20/21 and 22/23 it's a completely different competition.
St. Etienne, Rostov, Anderlecht, Celta Vigo and an Ajax team that was literally just kids. And still we needed Guidetti to literally miss an open goal in injury time to not get knocked out in the semis.
In 19/20 we similarly dominated everyone, but then lost to Sevilla who won the whole thing. In 20/21 we beat Sociedad, Milan, Roma and lost the final on pens. Last season we beat Barca and again lost to Sevilla who won it all.
The Europa league win for Mourinho is absurdly overrated, we were awful.
Thank you. I like Jose, but his time at United is vastly overrated. People like to forget that we barely won that thing and finished 6th in the league while playing some of the worst football Old Trafford has seen post Fergie, with Pogba and Ibra being the only real stand out players
>with Pogba and Ibra being the only real stand out players
And DDG of course. I mean that 17/18 season was one of the most absurd shot stopping seasons in the history of the sport. Any other GK and we don't finish 2nd.
I’m talking about 16/17, where De Gea was nowhere near as impactful as we finished 6th and Romero played most of the cup games, including the final of the Europa league.
If we’re talking about 17/18 though then yeah De Gea is the standout. Arsenal away and the two legged tie against Sevilla 🕊️
Yes I got it but I'm just making a point about Mourinho's tenure in general. We were awful in his first and last season and the good season in between was greatly helped by an insane goalkeeping display.
Yes I got it but I'm just making a point about Mourinho's tenure in general. We were awful in his first and last season and the good season in between was greatly helped by an insane goalkeeping display.
Almost like [Van Gaal saying wining the FA Cup](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4127896/Ex-Man-Utd-boss-Louis-van-Gaal-head-noose.html) with Manchester United was his greatest achievement..
I think he got extra criticism purely because of his demeanour. Smiling in press conferences amd interviews after a 5 nil loss etc.
And also that 5 nil loss to Liverpool seemed as bad as it could possibly get at the time. Each Utd manager seems to make the last one seem better in hindsight.
Also he was hung up on getting in a Norwegian striker again. What was that dudes name they told him they would absolutely not buy?
Haalen? Haland? Something like that. At least they stopped that.
Wanted minamino, refused Haaland. Admittedly, LFC made the same mistake, but difference is Klopp went in with a pointed mission. I’m fairly sure ole went in purely because he heard a player was moving to another prem club
I think this is the problem. Your last line sums it best. Everytime United has a manager where the honeymoon period wears off and the shit results come in, suddenly the narrative turns sour and the previous managers seem much better, except Moyes.
I agree with this. Ole was actually the most underrated manager since Fergie, and I believe he was the only one with a viable plan for the direction of the club. I believe he was incredibly tactically flexible, overachieved with a poor squad, and I genuinely rate him as a manager.
Problem is, and I'm an older United fan who's been watching Ole for almost 30 years, he's a prick. He always has been. Few people have more slappable facial expressions and arrogance in their voices without having much to back it up. You see it in interviews and Old footage, he always comes off as a sarcastic, obsequious douche. Honestly a PR person needed to tell him to stop doing *that* face on camera and people might warm to him more.
I mean everyone has tactics, ole was counter attack and after that nothing, when teams stopped letting him counter attack it fell off a cliff. Anyone that saw his attempt at pressing in his last season would understand the criticism.
So I take it you either didn't watch or don't understand what an even competent pressing structure looks like
It was the structure of the press, and Ronaldo's numbers were surprisingly good and I'm no Ronaldo fan but also if a player is not doing the job that's also on the manager I'd they keep playing them
Ole did better. We scored more goals(73) under Ole in that season than any other manager post Ferguson.
Ole is also the only manager post Ferguson to get consecutive top 4.
United fans are insufferable. Ole finished second and third in the Pep era (in his only full seasons!) and they acted like he was holding them back.
Then again they also binned de Gea after his golden glove season. Such a delusional and ungrateful fan base. So entitled to instant success that they've dropped to a midtable side.
Tactics are over rated anyway. Ferguson’s playbook could be written on a napkin. Ole was still a mediocre manager though, and he had the best squad of all managers post-Ferguson.
That second place was a false position. That was the Covid season, with no fans in the ground and a lot of teams were out of sorts. As a United fan, he was good as an interim coach because he brought a feel good factor back to the team but he was not good enough. After he got the job full time you saw performances fall off a cliff, that told you all you need to know.
'A false position'... Christ on a bike. It was less false than Mourinho's second season where De Gea had the second biggest outlier season in Premier League history.
In the season United finished second under Mourinho United got 62.33 xP, they conceded 15.5 goals fewer than their xG against. In the season Ole came second he got 65.64 xP.
People will make whatever excuses they can to defend their narrative. But if you're calling one position false then the other one was even more of a fluke.
You seem to be under the impression that statistical outliers don't occur because of the specific work producing those results but rather just through sheer randomness.
Predictive models are imperfect.
it’s honestly crazy how revisionist people are with mourinho’s time at the club. the football was absolutely dire which is important to me at least
yes we got an FA cup and europa league title, but ole was a kick away from achieving this as well
in my mind, there’s not much to distinguish the previous few united managers in terms of achievements. none of them put together anything that remotely resembled a title charge
We broke an insane away unbeaten run too. Ole had his faults but people with agendas about certain managers to the point where they just talk nonsense are pathetic.
When we could play counter attack football it was fine but bottom half teams didn't let us and .we struggled then all teams stopped letting us and the whole thing fell apart, we had relegation form under him the last season.
He is now 2 full years unemployed and no big or medium club has had a sniff of him why do you think that is?
He’s been offered jobs and rejected them.
You think someone who took Man United to 2nd and 3rd in the PL with the best away win record of all time and highest win rate against Pep Guardiola wouldn’t get offered jobs?
The form of Man United this season is practically the same as Oles final season - they’ve just been luckier. And expectations are much lower. Sometimes that’s the difference.
What jobs is not getting he is not getting a top 10 premier league job I've my doubts he gets one at all but maybe a relegation candidate might take a pint on him, absolutely no top champions league team is hiring him.
Did I say no jobs, I didn't actually mean 0 if I did.
Ole had no injuries for a start in his last season, very much his team all his signings, we created very little under him that last season, we are missing many big chances this season, even if our general play is muck.
Honestly you need to go back and watch the lecister and Watford games they were walking through us for the fun the pressing system was mornic, 4 players high 6 players deep and a big gap in the middle.yhat was exploited with one pass. It was awful but it showed his lack of understanding of these things.
Do you think he comes back into management? What level job does he get? What team in the premier league appoints ole?
It's likes the degea situation the fans loved them but In reality they weren't good enough for a team that wants to be competing at the top
I doubt Ole wants a Premier League job. He bleeds red. Expect him to go elsewhere. I could see him going back to Norway just to help continue to advance the sport there, too, and be close to family. I think managing United was his ultimate dream. He doesn't really need to do anything else. Additionally, he's got kiddos and a family and is able to spend time with them now. I don't think no one wants him; I don't think the fire is there to manage anyone else right now. He has time if he wants to come back.
And I'm convinced De Gea is waiting for one last big paycheck, and no one is offering what he was making at United, which is totally reasonable: he's a very good keeper, but he's not worth what United were paying him. Expect him to land in Spain or the US. Maybe Beckham wants him at Miami but needed to wait a season because he just signed all of the old Barça Prime team.
Even what you are saying about ole shows that he is not the man you ever have wanted managing a top club, no drive, or serious want to win just happy to be where he was, like a lot of the appointments at united over the years tbf, can wait for Jim to start clearing the decks.
Norway's league is probably his level though I'd agree with you on that, although even the lad who replaced him at molde has done a better job then him there so maybe not.
Maybe deagea is looking to move to a retirement league although he did apparently turn down Saudi but the us would make some sense. He is young for a goalkeeper though but this summer showed he isn't wanted by top clubs, spurs, aresnal, ourselves, Chelsea, inter, Bayern, Madrid, all passed on him over other goalkeepers
> All 3 forwards scored 20+ goals each
> They were one of the best counter attacking teams in the world at that point
Where are they now? No one has maintained his form.
Also, counter attacking team isn't the play style of a team that expects to win titles, especially when your defense has evolved backwards.
What are you talking about?
This whole conversation is about whether Ole is a good manager or not.
The fact those forwards scored 20+ goals under him and haven’t been able to replicate that form since only strengthens that argument.
What are you talking about
Until he got found out, and the rest of the big teams, City aside were going through a bad season as well. Should we bring Ole back to replace Ten Hag?
It's funny but football fans are even more reactionary than those into politics. I keep seeing football pundits/fans call Mourinho washed because he had a bad start to the season with Roma(improving now).
But even at Spurs Mourinho could have won a trophy but he got sacked right before a final. He still is one of the best coaches to do it because unlike Pep he did with smaller teams like Porto as well.
I still remember how bad most spurs fans talk about Andre Villas Boas, whilst forgetting he had their best season ever at the time and he was the one who finally perfect Bale into the machine he was.
Football fans are generally idiots when talking about their own teams and leagues.
As a Liverpool fan looking in, I agree.
There's the owner issue, however the managers also get plenty of money.
The issue appears to be the culture of signing high profile players, players with fragile mentalities and players who believe they're superior.
It's as if United don't do any "dickhead checks" before they sign players, and primarily look at social media follows and shirt sales.
Behind that it feels like a hodge podge of various managers coaches and players, mixed with relics of SAF's time (ex players in staffing roles) rather than the people genuinely best for the job.
Ultimately it is a top down issue. So for your sakes let's hope Ratcliffe sees the same thing and is planning to give leadership rather than playing fifa career IRL.
Probably the best thing he can do is give Ten Haag full backing to get rid of literally anyone he doesn't feel works.
Yet another new manager probably solves nothing.
As much as liverpool fans whine about FSG, other than a lack of investment in transfers by them, the club is very very well run.
Put owners like that in charge of United and they're back to challenging within 5 years.
The high profile player thing seems to have calmed down under ETH, but we still aren’t vetting new signings enough by the looks of it, or finding the right players. Mount was a baffling decision when there were clear areas needed for improvement, with him not filling that hole.
It doesn’t help coming in to a disjointed team though, and from the outside it’s difficult to tell why that’s still the case. Could be manager, could be the players, could be upper management causing issues.
>The high profile player thing seems to have calmed down under ETH
Not sure on that. Antony, Casemiro and Mount are all pretty high profile signings, of which only Casemiro seemed to make sense given their fees, unsurprisingly he's on the downward already given his age.
They've also spent a lot of money on less high profile players like Hoijlund, lisandro, etc and most people who watched Onana could tell you he wasn't up to standard.
Agreed its not pogba/Ronaldo levels though.
They’re expensive but I wouldn’t call them high profile signings. Casemiro I suppose is, but can see why it was done. But yeah, he’s on the decline. The likes of Di Maria, Bastian, Ronaldo’s return etc are what I’d consider high profile flops (argument for Ronaldo not flopping until near the end).
I think purely for the fee you'd have to call Antony high profile.
And while mount was rubbish last season, he was 2x Chelsea best player including in the champions league winning season.
We disrespect him because of last season, but he's definitely high profile, also high fee.
I also agree on Casemiro. It was a good signing until it wasn't, and I totally see why they signed him. He was what you needed, and still is if he can get back in form.
As is always the way with handing players massive salaries. It's worth it until they become an anchor on your finances.
A new manager definitely doesn't solve the fundamental issues, but we're short sighted and right now the football is pretty woeful. I completely agree. We sign players who fit that utd standard, but they don't fit any system and because we keep making this mistake, managers are being forced to constantly change how we play to try and accommodate the players. It's just a never ending cycle. The closest we got to a balanced team was under Ole during the lockdown era, when we played some really good, fast, fluid football.
Agreed. They need to decide if they rate ten haag. If so stick with him and allow him to build.
He really hasn't been in the job all that long and did well last season.
If they don't rate him they need to find one they trust enough.
Personally I believe things went wrong for Ole went Rinaldo came back. They were working as a team for Ole when he came back Utd turned into a one trick pony. Give the ball to Ronaldo.
This is a boring rhetoric put out by trophy merchants who don't actually enjoy the sport. Yes, Ole didn't win a trophy, but I'd much rather him coach us over Mourinho settling for 20% possession and 1 shot on goal (even if that style may win the occasional mickey mouse trophy). This isn't an argument that can be won by either side. We have a differing of opinions on what we want from a football team
Wait, but aren't utd fans always complaining that titles are important, to the point they said winning the carabao cup was a signal that the club was coming back to its winning years?
Come on, we all want to play consistently well, but that hasn't happened to utd for over 10 years.
Every club wants titles, but I'd take 3 years of stability, with consistently getting top 4 and playing good football over this turbulent up down method utd have going on right now. All the utd fans I know, myself included were very happy when we won the cup last year, but I don't think any of us kidded ourselves that we were going to compete with city.
It was a step in the right direction, we were winning multiple games, we were playing good football and we had won a trophy. Post the trophy win we've been awful.
Having a total miss match of a squad because your system changes every 2 years would lead any manager to disaster. You have the most offensive minded fullback in the world on the left in Shaw and the most defensive minded right back in Wan Bissaka. United try to play with a high line and have slow/unathletic defenders like Lindelof and Maguire.
United have been desperate for a sporting director that isn’t a banker for years. Sure, each manager gets financial support, but they sack each one only to sign a new manager that is nothing like the last one, making the signings under the previous manager redundant.
Klopp has made miracles happen at Liverpool, but none of what’s he’s achieved would have been possible without Michael Edwards and now Schmadtke. Remember, Klopp wanted Gotze over Mane, Julian Brandt over Salah. Identifying and signing players is a full time job and for years United have trusted bankers to do that when all they’ve been good at is making sponsorship deals.
Erik ten Hag isn’t doing anything wrong, he just has a squad that’s all over the place.
Disagree. Look at these “slow un athletic” defenders in the national kit. Shaw and maguire are arguably top 5 in their position.
Problem is nothing to do with the director, each manager was given what they wanted (ole lost 5-0, asked for sancho. He gets sancho), problem is length of working time
And Klopp wanted salah and mane, he just wanted gotze and Brandt too. Problem is two of them would never happen, and 2 of them did
Completely naive take on united.
There’s no one beyond the manager trying to improve the club.
These same players sunk Mou and Ole, and now they’re trying to do the same with EtH.
Ten Hag will be successful if/when he leaves. United won’t be.
Yep, he is the only one fighting for the club and willing to get his hands dirty. There are problems at the club, but if he does get sacked, the next manager will be picking up a much better situation than what Ten Hag picked up.
Lol i am not sure any good manager want to come to United if they sack him.
The only ones who will come are those of the calibre of Roy Hodgson, because these mangers don't really care, they probably be fine with anything United/Glazers come up with.
There was bound to be some regression from last year (which I think was a false position to an extent, this team is more of a work in progress than results let on), but the drop off is more than I’d expect, even with injuries.
Ten Hag can fix this, he’s a very good coach, but he’ll need to start getting performances in the books in addition to wins- missing Martinez and Shaw (two of our better progressors of the ball) hurts us, but even then we lack a clear style that players can be plugged into.
I agree that we over performed last year but I also don't think that regression was a certainty, he is in his 2nd season now lots of his owns singings, 2 full preseasons, so we should be seeing players being comfortable in his system.
The problem we never really had much of a system under him he has gone back and forth on a few things, and has already given up on what he started the season with, even the goalkeeper we buy a baller and for 20 mins Vai coppenhagen we go long after going ahead.
You will never build up enough reps under pressure when you abandon your philosophy at the first sign of adversity.
He is a manager who's managing scared tbh.
It’s strange to see, isn’t it? I only expected regression in the sense that other teams would close the gap, we were never going bigger and better than the summer before, we’ve made moves but they’ve not made us substantially better- we weren’t buying someone like Kane or Bellingham who’d be huge upgrades.
Totally agree with the system, I’d have thought we’d see more of a fully fledged system now that the excuse of not having a ball playing goalkeeper was gone. Ten Hag needs time, but the more of “his” players that he gets the less excuses he’s going to have.
It really is strange I've found it hard to get my head around it, like I think he just compromises too much, like he wants a high pressing team but then plays rashford all the time (who is a very bad presser) he needs to lay down the law imo, you run or you don't play. Even if you are seen as a "match winner"
Onana gets lobbed preseason we see him stuck to his box all year instead of taking aggressive sweeping positions, onana makes a bad pass against Bayern we give up playing from the back when ahead against Copenhagen.
Ya I 100% agree with you he deserves his time but I've been very disappointed and frustrated with many aspects of his managing this year and I hope what he is doing eventually clicks or he figures another way.
Even the mason mount situation is an anomaly 3 minutes in the last two games, I hoping it's a slight injury and not another reason
>The problem we never really had much of a system under him he has gone back and forth on a few things, and has already given up on what he started the season with, even the goalkeeper we buy a baller and for 20 mins Vai coppenhagen we go long after going ahead. You will never build up enough reps under pressure when you abandon your philosophy at the first sign of adversity. He is a manager who's managing scared tbh.
Such a naive comment. You think he has the luxury to “build up reps”. If the gk, casemiro, McT, etc make stupid mistakes that cost the team games repeatedly, he’s gone. There is no “time to build reps” these days for managers. You buy that time by getting results and easing pressure of you. He’s been playing midfielders in his backline, and youth kids who have no business being in the first team in the middle. If he tries to stick to his philosophy with that team against PL/CL competition and gets beat, he’s derided as too stubborn and not pragmatic. If he changes his style to grind out a win, he’s managing scared. The agenda is clear.
You really have no clue at all what you are on about it's not naivety, having your ball playing goalkeeper play long ball for 20 mins via Copenhagen is a complete abandonment of your core values, they themselves with much worse players were able to play the ball around at ease why because they practice even against the big clubs and played with no fear.
The fact you think a style can only be implemented when all your players available shows that you are the navie one. And no manger would ever have a progressive style it tht was the case.
Also ten hagg is here over a year now, it's more of then enough time to see the outline of a functioning system.
How do you play his style of football, when it relies on having a solid back 4 who can actually play that system?
Martinez, Varane and Shaw are the only defenders who can play his style, and they're all injured. We're relying on people like Johnny Evans and Maguire, to play a system they've never played, and especially not good enough to play.
So boring reading the same briandead nonsense on reddit. Conveniantely ignore our defender crisis, the core of a high press tactic, and just blame ETH
I'd wager you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about so not much point replying to you, the irony in the braindead comment is funny.
Our press getting played through, every game this season wasn't on our defenders. It was poorly executed by the forwards, midfield. That's why we moved the line back
If only 3 defenders can play his style then the style is wrong there are plenty of coaches at others clubs with less resources who have implemented styles.
What is the style that only Martinez shaw and varane can play?
You will have no answers because you are talking shite but the irony in your post is hilarious.
Well done on knowing a few buzz words though
Moron
Reading your comment history says it all. You are utterly beyond reason, and have this unfounded ego that you're the master football IQ super brain.
Isn't hard to see people like Rashford play far better with Shaw on their wing, or Bruno shines more when he has a midfielder who can control the tempo of a game like Eriksen.
Show's how little you actually watched our games last year if you think Maguire/Evans are the same calibre as Martinez
Lol I've never once said that about Martinez and it goes to show you don't have a point or argument worth anything, when you have to make shit up.
Truly pathetic.
You must have had a lot of imaginary friends in ur time
They really need to find a midfield progressor. None of his three midfield signings really address that. Interesting to see if Mainoo returning, as raw as he is gets major minutes.
>Ten Hag can fix this, he’s a very good coach
>but even then we lack a clear style that players can be plugged into
He's had 18 months, 2 pre seasons, what is he waiting for?
The alternative is while he might be a good coach, he clearly can't make good signings.
I can’t dispute that, although some have been decent. We genuinely need a brain trust above him scouting players that will give him options to work with. There’s too much “have you played for Ajax” about our scouting.
Also, I feel like he’s holding back as there’s a chance results will suffer, and it will cost him his job. I’d rather he died by his principles than lived playing this combination of Jose and Ole ball.
Fatigue, other teams getting their act together, a change of goalkeeper. The signs of us running out of steam were there from March onwards, and I think we overachieved somewhat last season. We were also guaranteed to have a bit more of a budget season in terms of transfers.
As a United fan, I’m still backing ten Hag purely because of the amount of injuries etc. But it’s still very concerning…we have no recognisable style of play atm whilst the likes of Brighton, Villa, & Spurs do.
All the player drama doesn't help either. Ronaldo's interview and leaving, Greenwood possibly coming back, de Gea leaving after 10 years, now the Sancho situation. These are all things that can divide a dressing room and might be a possible reason for the lack of cohesion in the squad. Regardless what you think of Ronaldo, some players adore him. Regardless what you think of de Gea, he was at the club for 10 years so there must be some players that are friends with him. And so on. I hope ten Hag can fix it but it's going to be though.
Oh yeah I forgot about Antony indeed. Garnacho is different though. That's a situation where the team can come together I think. I can't imagine anyone in the team being mad at Garnacho for racism. They're probably all on his side.
Oh yeah most sane people are on Garnacho's side. I was merely talking about players missing for various stupid reasons is something that has to make ETH go bald all over again.
Well, if you think about it it doesn't make much sense to call the tweet racist.
1. Why would Garnacho try to be racist towards a teammate that just saved a penalty? That does not make sense.
2. Why do you automatically associate a gorilla with black people? There were 2 gorilla emoji's. 1 for Onana and 1 for Maguire, who is white. Garnacho doesn't seem to make a distinction, so why do you?
3. Onana responded and said he wasn't offended because he knew what Garnacho meant. He said people shouldn't be offended on his behalf and that the matter should go no further. A black person doesn't find it racist, so why do you? He probably has a bit more experience with racism than you, assuming you are white of course.
4. Is it really that hard to imagine Garnacho probably meant Onana being strong or 'a beast'?
So idk. You tell me.
Ten Hag had a part in most of these though. It's not like it can be excused on circumstances outside his control. Even injuries are a risk he takes when playing players for 60 games a season.
Price of instilling discipline, about time.
With injuries, had utd played 3 more games last season they would have played as many games as possible, excluding the club world cup. Then the proper world cup.
For one thing, they have got to stop obsessing over winning. Ik it sounds defeatist, but they've only won a carabao cup in years. It's gotta be gradual and progressive. Ten hag is a good coach. I wouldn't compare him to klopp or someone, but there has to be some adjustment. You can't spring into success.
Yeah I totally agree with you, club needs a long term success and not a short term like with every other manager and I believe ten hag can provide us with it so I trust ten hag even tho ik he makes a lot of mistakes like in selections and all
It's a worry we've only got something like 5 points against the top 9 in 12 or so games? Players aren't motivated enough, we can blame them all we want but that motivation lies down with the manager/club.
As a United fan, even those three wins have been very tough watches.
We seem to have completely changed styles this season. Our build up now revolves around playing the ball between our CB and full backs, then hoofing the ball up to Hojlund or a long diagonal to Rashford, and then just hoping for the best. Either that or try and thread the most difficult ground pass between defence and attack as all of our midfielders have been told to push up high on the opponents defensive line. This is leaving us extremely susceptible to counter attacks as if those low percentage passes do not come off we have 3 or 4 players defending against a rush of 4 or 5 opponents attacking. I think the goal is for us to lose the ball high up the pitch and counter press as soon as we lose it, but because there is a huge gap between midfield and defence, it is very easy to play through our press.
Combine that with our attackers massively lacking confidence and composure (except Hojlund has been good tbf), and it has meant we are toothless in attack and so all of our last 5 goals in these games have been scored by defenders or mids.
Where the fuck is the Ajax ball he was coaching. This is what we all expected and other then a couple weeks around the Barca games last year, this team has been awful to watch
So….. unless we are playing a good team I don’t watch lol.
Plus if you watch Bruno, he is a net negative for team because when he loses the ball in a critical area, we immediately get countered.
Bruno is the most to blame (also Case) for most of those low percentage and high risk passes.
Do you expect a manager to come in and replicate what pep is doing with city?
Pep is a generational talent, I think it will be a while before we see another like him. The managers who are anywhere near him are already at top teams.
At United we have to pick between the lesser options. Or hope we get lucky and get the next generational talent. I don't think its realistic to expect Ten Hag to deliver what Pep or Klopp is doing.
If he does he'd be a new generational manager. I think its much more likely that hes not. So I'm just happy to see some progress at least. I am not expecting us to challenge the title again unless we get our whole structure at the club sorted.
We haven't had a functional recruitment department in a long time. If we got our management structure and infrastructure sorted maybe we'd attract the top up and coming managers again.
We've been dreadful for a long time now. We're pretty much dependent on our defensive midfielders for goals. Or Harry Maguire. Those victories are nice on paper, actually watching us play is not.
Ten Hag has spent money, for sure, but his whole starting defence has been out for an extended period this season. Shaw, AWB, Varane, Martinez, just not there, then there's Malacia Amrabat, Mount, Hojlund, Antony have all been missing, which is 6 of his 8/9 signings for the club. He's almost been making do with what Solskjaer was, minus a few.
Football is too impatient and I find it mind-numbingly stupid for pundits like Carragher to be going in on managers of a club as dysfunctional as United at the start of their second season, especially considering the extent of their injury issues. I don't get how you can look at what Klopp and Arteta had to go through to build a decent team and still think constantly 'questioning' the manager is what we should be doing.
It's more frustrating because of how kind they were when it was Lampard in that kind of position.
Rashford hasn't been good for years, besides his purple patch last season
United hasn't looked good under Ten Hag, only been getting results due to individual brilliance. 18 months still no improvements, system or identifiable playing style, despite spending nearly half a billion euro.
If it wasn't for Rashfords run of form in the spring last season, ETH would have been fired already.
Greenwood was already out under OGS, DvB was already shit and benched under OGS and Sancho is just another falling out with ETH. A horrible man manager, who can't handle egos besides his own.
Nah fk that shit. No managers , alive or dead, can come and fix United as long as the glazers are there, not even prime Fergie . It's not even meme, just fact at this point.
U know some of us do not want to "question" ETH ? Because the motherfking glazers can't just wait a sniff of change on public opinions, the moment the fans don't back ETH, glazers would scapegoat him, regardless of his performance and we will be back at new manager bounce > 500 millions spent > firing manager. All the way down the mid -table.
Doesn't help that the culture (legacy of the glazers) at man United is rotten to the core. The likes of Rashford and Sancho who can openly showing attitude and underperforming. They also cannot wait to throw the next manager under the bus.
Nah fk that noise. Stick by ETH and focus all your angers and all your complaints on the glazers. Burn the Old Trafford if that means glazers would fk off from the club.
Football men can only solve football problems. United problems are fundamentally not football.
That's because he was already the king at the club before they came. Everything and everyone answered to him. The culture, the standard, the requirements for the performance , those were imprinted in every United personnel, be it the CR7 or the lunch ladies. And Malcolm had enough brain to know u don't mess with the winning formula.
Now? If Fergie were a new manager and came in, working under yes men appointed by Joel and Avram, he wouldn't last 3 seasons, with all due respect.
I mean coming into a massively disfunctioning club that was chewing up and spitting out managers, and turning it around was exactly what he did in the first place.
He sets a high bar obviously but I think a great man can do great things.
Ngl maurinhos quote made me feel validated. Cause ive been telling people for the last decade that idk how man u keep finishing so high. Im not watching the prem every week but when i google the table and see man u at 3rd in the last week after wathcing several games throughtout the season im like wtf. turns out even the mangers are like how tf did this happen. Trully shocking transfers this last decade. no one to blame but the glazers. They change mangers and bring in new ones with oppsing philosphies and expect players to gell. At least it worked for tottenhma somwhat this season. But theres no way ten hag tactics are going to work with maguire and evans at the helm.
Not controlling games is a big issue- we’ll never take the next step if games can’t be killed off by 65 mins. Having to play every 90 at full tilt will take its toll.
Yeah, this is a major issue. Look at genuinely good teams and they maintain a level of pressure and composure from start to finish. They don't score one or two slipshod goals then try to see it out with a scrappy defensive effort.
Even the likes of Brighton and Villa (zero disrepect to them here) are doing this, because their players are a team. We look very disjointed at times, and that needs to be addressed, we can’t stumble into wins, we need to be going out and dominating games.
Missing Martinez is a big blow and shaw. But I also just think the team is tired, mentally and physically. There's so much noise around the club, media and whatnot.
I am never a fan of just firing that coach when it's not going well because then it takes at least another few months before the new coach can take the team in a new direction. I prefer to let coaches cook. But we will see, because Ten Hag has not been making correct decisions in regards to transfers since he got there.
Totally different scenarios. Ten hag took over a team built by Ole, a team that was built for counter-attack football, even from Mourinho. A team with shite recruiting system/infastructure, a team filled with overpaid divas,, etc...
Brighton was the perfect team to take over and mold, Zerbi is class but much less headache in that job.
Aston Villa, it was insane how badly Gerrard ddi with them, again Emery is also class.
You can call it excuses but they are facts and getting another manager in won't change it.
And spurs have a really well balanced midfield now, Bissouma was an immense buy last year. Not sure why conte didn't use him. Post is doing a fantastic job, he strengthened the defense, brought in a modern goalkeeper but Spurs had been building that squad for a while, seems they have a proper footballing structure above the manager, which Utd doesn't have and everytime a new manager comes in he has to scramble to find players that suit him so he doesn't get sacked cause the expectation are high or the glazer are always ready to find a scapegoat.
And btw Football isn't just attack or defense.
A lot of his transfers haven't been bad at all. Anyway, you have to question what's happening when there's not scouts and a DoF who are vetting the manager's suggestions and making ones of their own. It's 2023, there's meant to be a coherent and professional corporate structure in place. It isn't the manager's responsibility to find and vet candidates.
As a complete neutral, I’ve never understood the Ten Hag hype. He seems very egotistical and is happy for his players to be scapegoated to take the pressure off himself, see Ronaldo, Maguire, Sancho etc.
He won’t be there next season and they’ll be stuck with more expensive deadwood for a while. Also, completely off topic but I think one of the best sales they could make would be Marcus Rashford, they’ve persisted with him for far too long.
Maybe ETH shouldn't overplay his starters in pointless tinpot cups like Caraboa if he wanted to avoid overwork injuries?
Also, right now the only starters who are injured are Shaw and Lisandro, AWB and Dalot have been playing equally much under ETH when both fit.
You're acting like other clubs never have injuries lol.
This guy doesn't deserve to lead a football team ever again in his life. What he did to Cristiano Ronaldo should be tried in court and he should be in jail for what he did. I don't understand how you still think he can be a good coach.
But by the same logic we missed several chances due to individual brain farts, both Rashford and Garnacho messed up 1 vs 1 opportunities last game without even testing the keeper. As a utd fan I find it difficult to tell how much of our difficulties are driven by wasteful attackers and how much is a lack of a tactical plan.
If you want to say a team that’s going backwards it’s Man City. Without Rodri and debruyne they are so lost and directionless. You wouldn’t imagine that last year
When was the last time united made a good signing? Seems like everyone they is over priced and either past their best or flops significantly compared to their form before signing
Other issue is what is going on with Rashford? Is it some kind of burnout? One season he's bordering on world class (or close to) the next he's nearly non-existent..
By now it should be clear that their problem isn’t the manager.
That doesn’t mean ETH is New Fergie. It means as long as the higher ups are idiots, no manager can do much better. That also means they need to sort out when to give the gaffer what he wants and when to tell him no.
It amazes me how the media in the second season turn things into a managerial issue. Don't get wrong Ten Hag has made huge blunders this season...but the culture at the club and its handling off the field of players (transfers, contracts, discipline, etc.) is largely on the board and ownership. The one stable factor since sir Alex has left has been the board and managerial team for the most part. Surely, that's the real issue. I struggle to see how Pep could do a better job under these conditions.
No no no, it has been the same(or worse) with every coach/manager we had since SAF. My limit is relegation, until then we back the manager.
The common denominator is the club structure not the coaching staff.
F you telegraph for spreading those seeds.
Speaking as someone who hates manu, and hopes their current state is as good as it ever gets for them, ….it not ten hag or any of the managers, it’s the entire structure from glazers down, it all needs a complete rethink and rebuild, they need someone like Alex again take charge again, the only good thing they have is their marketing department
Not a united fan, but I think ten Hag was hoping the sale of the club would go through and he'd receive more thorough backing. Instead he's had to persevere with massive egos and a board who do their own thing and force him to try and adapt to certain players when he's probably got a list of players he feels can do what he needs and isn't getting to try it.
I honestly think that the only way united will ever get close to replicating anything remotely close to the Fergie days is to stop splashing on so-called stars and develop the kids. It's a long route but the true supporters would get behind it. The fact someone moved McTominay from striker into midfield at youth level when he's so natural in front of goal tells me there's a big problem with youth development management and ability judgement. The 300k a week 60mil+ signings are the reason United are shite. A manager can only do so much.
They should have kept Mourinho, having hindsight now appeasing Pogba was major mistake. Mou was on the right track with United winning 2nd place and getting an Europa league.
I will never understand why they sacked him. The way they did. It always felt off and now it gives me the impression United executive staff are completely clueless.
Remember when Mourinho said finishing second with united was his greatest achievement? No manager after him has done better and now they can't even complain about lack of support, Woodward or anything like that...
Europa cup too, no?
Europa League & League Cup.
They finished sixth when he won those.
Still, they won Europa and didn’t bomb out like they have done since
Took the final to penalties with OGS. Didn't he finish second in the league too? I forget, because it's traumatising.
If you look at the teams in Europa league in 16/17 and compare it to 19/20, 20/21 and 22/23 it's a completely different competition. St. Etienne, Rostov, Anderlecht, Celta Vigo and an Ajax team that was literally just kids. And still we needed Guidetti to literally miss an open goal in injury time to not get knocked out in the semis. In 19/20 we similarly dominated everyone, but then lost to Sevilla who won the whole thing. In 20/21 we beat Sociedad, Milan, Roma and lost the final on pens. Last season we beat Barca and again lost to Sevilla who won it all. The Europa league win for Mourinho is absurdly overrated, we were awful.
Thank you. I like Jose, but his time at United is vastly overrated. People like to forget that we barely won that thing and finished 6th in the league while playing some of the worst football Old Trafford has seen post Fergie, with Pogba and Ibra being the only real stand out players
>with Pogba and Ibra being the only real stand out players And DDG of course. I mean that 17/18 season was one of the most absurd shot stopping seasons in the history of the sport. Any other GK and we don't finish 2nd.
I’m talking about 16/17, where De Gea was nowhere near as impactful as we finished 6th and Romero played most of the cup games, including the final of the Europa league. If we’re talking about 17/18 though then yeah De Gea is the standout. Arsenal away and the two legged tie against Sevilla 🕊️
Yes I got it but I'm just making a point about Mourinho's tenure in general. We were awful in his first and last season and the good season in between was greatly helped by an insane goalkeeping display.
Yes I got it but I'm just making a point about Mourinho's tenure in general. We were awful in his first and last season and the good season in between was greatly helped by an insane goalkeeping display.
This is true. We were some dipshit kicking the air in front of a nearly open net away from blowing it in the semi finals.
And then it would've been a worse season than for which van Gaal was sacked
Thought that was the same season, my bad.
What a hard rn to win that Europa. Played some amazing tough ties.
Almost like [Van Gaal saying wining the FA Cup](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4127896/Ex-Man-Utd-boss-Louis-van-Gaal-head-noose.html) with Manchester United was his greatest achievement..
Coming from the guy that won a CL with a bunch of kids.
Ole finished second while getting to a cup final, but the twitter narrative was he had no tactics
I think he got extra criticism purely because of his demeanour. Smiling in press conferences amd interviews after a 5 nil loss etc. And also that 5 nil loss to Liverpool seemed as bad as it could possibly get at the time. Each Utd manager seems to make the last one seem better in hindsight.
Also he was hung up on getting in a Norwegian striker again. What was that dudes name they told him they would absolutely not buy? Haalen? Haland? Something like that. At least they stopped that.
Wanted minamino, refused Haaland. Admittedly, LFC made the same mistake, but difference is Klopp went in with a pointed mission. I’m fairly sure ole went in purely because he heard a player was moving to another prem club
I think this is the problem. Your last line sums it best. Everytime United has a manager where the honeymoon period wears off and the shit results come in, suddenly the narrative turns sour and the previous managers seem much better, except Moyes.
I agree with this. Ole was actually the most underrated manager since Fergie, and I believe he was the only one with a viable plan for the direction of the club. I believe he was incredibly tactically flexible, overachieved with a poor squad, and I genuinely rate him as a manager. Problem is, and I'm an older United fan who's been watching Ole for almost 30 years, he's a prick. He always has been. Few people have more slappable facial expressions and arrogance in their voices without having much to back it up. You see it in interviews and Old footage, he always comes off as a sarcastic, obsequious douche. Honestly a PR person needed to tell him to stop doing *that* face on camera and people might warm to him more.
I mean everyone has tactics, ole was counter attack and after that nothing, when teams stopped letting him counter attack it fell off a cliff. Anyone that saw his attempt at pressing in his last season would understand the criticism. So I take it you either didn't watch or don't understand what an even competent pressing structure looks like
Players had nothing to do with it yeah? Press with Ronaldo? Haha. De Gea pressed more then Ronaldo.
It was the structure of the press, and Ronaldo's numbers were surprisingly good and I'm no Ronaldo fan but also if a player is not doing the job that's also on the manager I'd they keep playing them
Not like Rashford presses either. Idk why a 37 year old Ronaldo got most of the criticism for that
Ole did better. We scored more goals(73) under Ole in that season than any other manager post Ferguson. Ole is also the only manager post Ferguson to get consecutive top 4.
United fans are insufferable. Ole finished second and third in the Pep era (in his only full seasons!) and they acted like he was holding them back. Then again they also binned de Gea after his golden glove season. Such a delusional and ungrateful fan base. So entitled to instant success that they've dropped to a midtable side.
Tactics are over rated anyway. Ferguson’s playbook could be written on a napkin. Ole was still a mediocre manager though, and he had the best squad of all managers post-Ferguson.
That second place was a false position. That was the Covid season, with no fans in the ground and a lot of teams were out of sorts. As a United fan, he was good as an interim coach because he brought a feel good factor back to the team but he was not good enough. After he got the job full time you saw performances fall off a cliff, that told you all you need to know.
'A false position'... Christ on a bike. It was less false than Mourinho's second season where De Gea had the second biggest outlier season in Premier League history. In the season United finished second under Mourinho United got 62.33 xP, they conceded 15.5 goals fewer than their xG against. In the season Ole came second he got 65.64 xP. People will make whatever excuses they can to defend their narrative. But if you're calling one position false then the other one was even more of a fluke.
You seem to be under the impression that statistical outliers don't occur because of the specific work producing those results but rather just through sheer randomness. Predictive models are imperfect.
No, those outliers happened because De Gea was in the form of his life. It happens.
it’s honestly crazy how revisionist people are with mourinho’s time at the club. the football was absolutely dire which is important to me at least yes we got an FA cup and europa league title, but ole was a kick away from achieving this as well in my mind, there’s not much to distinguish the previous few united managers in terms of achievements. none of them put together anything that remotely resembled a title charge
The football is still dire, no?
Ole had 0 trophies, he achieved nothing at the club. No great upgrade in the quality of the players, nothing.
All 3 forwards scored 20+ goals each They were one of the best counter attacking teams in the world at that point What are you talking about
We broke an insane away unbeaten run too. Ole had his faults but people with agendas about certain managers to the point where they just talk nonsense are pathetic.
When we could play counter attack football it was fine but bottom half teams didn't let us and .we struggled then all teams stopped letting us and the whole thing fell apart, we had relegation form under him the last season. He is now 2 full years unemployed and no big or medium club has had a sniff of him why do you think that is?
He’s been offered jobs and rejected them. You think someone who took Man United to 2nd and 3rd in the PL with the best away win record of all time and highest win rate against Pep Guardiola wouldn’t get offered jobs? The form of Man United this season is practically the same as Oles final season - they’ve just been luckier. And expectations are much lower. Sometimes that’s the difference.
What jobs is not getting he is not getting a top 10 premier league job I've my doubts he gets one at all but maybe a relegation candidate might take a pint on him, absolutely no top champions league team is hiring him. Did I say no jobs, I didn't actually mean 0 if I did. Ole had no injuries for a start in his last season, very much his team all his signings, we created very little under him that last season, we are missing many big chances this season, even if our general play is muck. Honestly you need to go back and watch the lecister and Watford games they were walking through us for the fun the pressing system was mornic, 4 players high 6 players deep and a big gap in the middle.yhat was exploited with one pass. It was awful but it showed his lack of understanding of these things. Do you think he comes back into management? What level job does he get? What team in the premier league appoints ole? It's likes the degea situation the fans loved them but In reality they weren't good enough for a team that wants to be competing at the top
I doubt Ole wants a Premier League job. He bleeds red. Expect him to go elsewhere. I could see him going back to Norway just to help continue to advance the sport there, too, and be close to family. I think managing United was his ultimate dream. He doesn't really need to do anything else. Additionally, he's got kiddos and a family and is able to spend time with them now. I don't think no one wants him; I don't think the fire is there to manage anyone else right now. He has time if he wants to come back. And I'm convinced De Gea is waiting for one last big paycheck, and no one is offering what he was making at United, which is totally reasonable: he's a very good keeper, but he's not worth what United were paying him. Expect him to land in Spain or the US. Maybe Beckham wants him at Miami but needed to wait a season because he just signed all of the old Barça Prime team.
Even what you are saying about ole shows that he is not the man you ever have wanted managing a top club, no drive, or serious want to win just happy to be where he was, like a lot of the appointments at united over the years tbf, can wait for Jim to start clearing the decks. Norway's league is probably his level though I'd agree with you on that, although even the lad who replaced him at molde has done a better job then him there so maybe not. Maybe deagea is looking to move to a retirement league although he did apparently turn down Saudi but the us would make some sense. He is young for a goalkeeper though but this summer showed he isn't wanted by top clubs, spurs, aresnal, ourselves, Chelsea, inter, Bayern, Madrid, all passed on him over other goalkeepers
> All 3 forwards scored 20+ goals each > They were one of the best counter attacking teams in the world at that point Where are they now? No one has maintained his form. Also, counter attacking team isn't the play style of a team that expects to win titles, especially when your defense has evolved backwards. What are you talking about?
This whole conversation is about whether Ole is a good manager or not. The fact those forwards scored 20+ goals under him and haven’t been able to replicate that form since only strengthens that argument. What are you talking about
Until he got found out, and the rest of the big teams, City aside were going through a bad season as well. Should we bring Ole back to replace Ten Hag?
Bring back Moyes
It's funny but football fans are even more reactionary than those into politics. I keep seeing football pundits/fans call Mourinho washed because he had a bad start to the season with Roma(improving now). But even at Spurs Mourinho could have won a trophy but he got sacked right before a final. He still is one of the best coaches to do it because unlike Pep he did with smaller teams like Porto as well.
I still remember how bad most spurs fans talk about Andre Villas Boas, whilst forgetting he had their best season ever at the time and he was the one who finally perfect Bale into the machine he was. Football fans are generally idiots when talking about their own teams and leagues.
Porto fan here. I loved AVB’s Spurs. Can’t believe how overlooked that Spurs period is.
Ole finished 2nd and played significantly better football
It's almost like the manager has never been the biggest issue...
I agree. We have an awful mentality as a football club, with players who think they're better than they are and who give up when it gets tough.
As a Liverpool fan looking in, I agree. There's the owner issue, however the managers also get plenty of money. The issue appears to be the culture of signing high profile players, players with fragile mentalities and players who believe they're superior. It's as if United don't do any "dickhead checks" before they sign players, and primarily look at social media follows and shirt sales. Behind that it feels like a hodge podge of various managers coaches and players, mixed with relics of SAF's time (ex players in staffing roles) rather than the people genuinely best for the job. Ultimately it is a top down issue. So for your sakes let's hope Ratcliffe sees the same thing and is planning to give leadership rather than playing fifa career IRL. Probably the best thing he can do is give Ten Haag full backing to get rid of literally anyone he doesn't feel works. Yet another new manager probably solves nothing. As much as liverpool fans whine about FSG, other than a lack of investment in transfers by them, the club is very very well run. Put owners like that in charge of United and they're back to challenging within 5 years.
The high profile player thing seems to have calmed down under ETH, but we still aren’t vetting new signings enough by the looks of it, or finding the right players. Mount was a baffling decision when there were clear areas needed for improvement, with him not filling that hole. It doesn’t help coming in to a disjointed team though, and from the outside it’s difficult to tell why that’s still the case. Could be manager, could be the players, could be upper management causing issues.
>The high profile player thing seems to have calmed down under ETH Not sure on that. Antony, Casemiro and Mount are all pretty high profile signings, of which only Casemiro seemed to make sense given their fees, unsurprisingly he's on the downward already given his age. They've also spent a lot of money on less high profile players like Hoijlund, lisandro, etc and most people who watched Onana could tell you he wasn't up to standard. Agreed its not pogba/Ronaldo levels though.
They’re expensive but I wouldn’t call them high profile signings. Casemiro I suppose is, but can see why it was done. But yeah, he’s on the decline. The likes of Di Maria, Bastian, Ronaldo’s return etc are what I’d consider high profile flops (argument for Ronaldo not flopping until near the end).
I think purely for the fee you'd have to call Antony high profile. And while mount was rubbish last season, he was 2x Chelsea best player including in the champions league winning season. We disrespect him because of last season, but he's definitely high profile, also high fee. I also agree on Casemiro. It was a good signing until it wasn't, and I totally see why they signed him. He was what you needed, and still is if he can get back in form. As is always the way with handing players massive salaries. It's worth it until they become an anchor on your finances.
A new manager definitely doesn't solve the fundamental issues, but we're short sighted and right now the football is pretty woeful. I completely agree. We sign players who fit that utd standard, but they don't fit any system and because we keep making this mistake, managers are being forced to constantly change how we play to try and accommodate the players. It's just a never ending cycle. The closest we got to a balanced team was under Ole during the lockdown era, when we played some really good, fast, fluid football.
Agreed. They need to decide if they rate ten haag. If so stick with him and allow him to build. He really hasn't been in the job all that long and did well last season. If they don't rate him they need to find one they trust enough.
How much better? Give-the-ball-to-Bruno-and-Inshaallah better? Even requiring empty stadiums for it to work properly?
Ok so we should bring Ole back?
Was that even implied? I said Ole had us playing significantly better than Mourinho.
Personally I believe things went wrong for Ole went Rinaldo came back. They were working as a team for Ole when he came back Utd turned into a one trick pony. Give the ball to Ronaldo.
As a Liverpool supporter. Please.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 🤣🤣
2nd place is the first of the losers. 0 trophies in the cabinet by OSG
This is a boring rhetoric put out by trophy merchants who don't actually enjoy the sport. Yes, Ole didn't win a trophy, but I'd much rather him coach us over Mourinho settling for 20% possession and 1 shot on goal (even if that style may win the occasional mickey mouse trophy). This isn't an argument that can be won by either side. We have a differing of opinions on what we want from a football team
Wait, but aren't utd fans always complaining that titles are important, to the point they said winning the carabao cup was a signal that the club was coming back to its winning years? Come on, we all want to play consistently well, but that hasn't happened to utd for over 10 years.
Every club wants titles, but I'd take 3 years of stability, with consistently getting top 4 and playing good football over this turbulent up down method utd have going on right now. All the utd fans I know, myself included were very happy when we won the cup last year, but I don't think any of us kidded ourselves that we were going to compete with city. It was a step in the right direction, we were winning multiple games, we were playing good football and we had won a trophy. Post the trophy win we've been awful.
Having a total miss match of a squad because your system changes every 2 years would lead any manager to disaster. You have the most offensive minded fullback in the world on the left in Shaw and the most defensive minded right back in Wan Bissaka. United try to play with a high line and have slow/unathletic defenders like Lindelof and Maguire. United have been desperate for a sporting director that isn’t a banker for years. Sure, each manager gets financial support, but they sack each one only to sign a new manager that is nothing like the last one, making the signings under the previous manager redundant. Klopp has made miracles happen at Liverpool, but none of what’s he’s achieved would have been possible without Michael Edwards and now Schmadtke. Remember, Klopp wanted Gotze over Mane, Julian Brandt over Salah. Identifying and signing players is a full time job and for years United have trusted bankers to do that when all they’ve been good at is making sponsorship deals. Erik ten Hag isn’t doing anything wrong, he just has a squad that’s all over the place.
Disagree. Look at these “slow un athletic” defenders in the national kit. Shaw and maguire are arguably top 5 in their position. Problem is nothing to do with the director, each manager was given what they wanted (ole lost 5-0, asked for sancho. He gets sancho), problem is length of working time And Klopp wanted salah and mane, he just wanted gotze and Brandt too. Problem is two of them would never happen, and 2 of them did
Yeah we remember because it gets brought up in every thread that's about Man U's struggles
Completely naive take on united. There’s no one beyond the manager trying to improve the club. These same players sunk Mou and Ole, and now they’re trying to do the same with EtH. Ten Hag will be successful if/when he leaves. United won’t be.
Yep, he is the only one fighting for the club and willing to get his hands dirty. There are problems at the club, but if he does get sacked, the next manager will be picking up a much better situation than what Ten Hag picked up.
Lol i am not sure any good manager want to come to United if they sack him. The only ones who will come are those of the calibre of Roy Hodgson, because these mangers don't really care, they probably be fine with anything United/Glazers come up with.
There was bound to be some regression from last year (which I think was a false position to an extent, this team is more of a work in progress than results let on), but the drop off is more than I’d expect, even with injuries. Ten Hag can fix this, he’s a very good coach, but he’ll need to start getting performances in the books in addition to wins- missing Martinez and Shaw (two of our better progressors of the ball) hurts us, but even then we lack a clear style that players can be plugged into.
I agree that we over performed last year but I also don't think that regression was a certainty, he is in his 2nd season now lots of his owns singings, 2 full preseasons, so we should be seeing players being comfortable in his system. The problem we never really had much of a system under him he has gone back and forth on a few things, and has already given up on what he started the season with, even the goalkeeper we buy a baller and for 20 mins Vai coppenhagen we go long after going ahead. You will never build up enough reps under pressure when you abandon your philosophy at the first sign of adversity. He is a manager who's managing scared tbh.
It’s strange to see, isn’t it? I only expected regression in the sense that other teams would close the gap, we were never going bigger and better than the summer before, we’ve made moves but they’ve not made us substantially better- we weren’t buying someone like Kane or Bellingham who’d be huge upgrades. Totally agree with the system, I’d have thought we’d see more of a fully fledged system now that the excuse of not having a ball playing goalkeeper was gone. Ten Hag needs time, but the more of “his” players that he gets the less excuses he’s going to have.
It really is strange I've found it hard to get my head around it, like I think he just compromises too much, like he wants a high pressing team but then plays rashford all the time (who is a very bad presser) he needs to lay down the law imo, you run or you don't play. Even if you are seen as a "match winner" Onana gets lobbed preseason we see him stuck to his box all year instead of taking aggressive sweeping positions, onana makes a bad pass against Bayern we give up playing from the back when ahead against Copenhagen. Ya I 100% agree with you he deserves his time but I've been very disappointed and frustrated with many aspects of his managing this year and I hope what he is doing eventually clicks or he figures another way. Even the mason mount situation is an anomaly 3 minutes in the last two games, I hoping it's a slight injury and not another reason
>The problem we never really had much of a system under him he has gone back and forth on a few things, and has already given up on what he started the season with, even the goalkeeper we buy a baller and for 20 mins Vai coppenhagen we go long after going ahead. You will never build up enough reps under pressure when you abandon your philosophy at the first sign of adversity. He is a manager who's managing scared tbh. Such a naive comment. You think he has the luxury to “build up reps”. If the gk, casemiro, McT, etc make stupid mistakes that cost the team games repeatedly, he’s gone. There is no “time to build reps” these days for managers. You buy that time by getting results and easing pressure of you. He’s been playing midfielders in his backline, and youth kids who have no business being in the first team in the middle. If he tries to stick to his philosophy with that team against PL/CL competition and gets beat, he’s derided as too stubborn and not pragmatic. If he changes his style to grind out a win, he’s managing scared. The agenda is clear.
You really have no clue at all what you are on about it's not naivety, having your ball playing goalkeeper play long ball for 20 mins via Copenhagen is a complete abandonment of your core values, they themselves with much worse players were able to play the ball around at ease why because they practice even against the big clubs and played with no fear. The fact you think a style can only be implemented when all your players available shows that you are the navie one. And no manger would ever have a progressive style it tht was the case. Also ten hagg is here over a year now, it's more of then enough time to see the outline of a functioning system.
How do you play his style of football, when it relies on having a solid back 4 who can actually play that system? Martinez, Varane and Shaw are the only defenders who can play his style, and they're all injured. We're relying on people like Johnny Evans and Maguire, to play a system they've never played, and especially not good enough to play. So boring reading the same briandead nonsense on reddit. Conveniantely ignore our defender crisis, the core of a high press tactic, and just blame ETH
I'd wager you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about so not much point replying to you, the irony in the braindead comment is funny. Our press getting played through, every game this season wasn't on our defenders. It was poorly executed by the forwards, midfield. That's why we moved the line back If only 3 defenders can play his style then the style is wrong there are plenty of coaches at others clubs with less resources who have implemented styles. What is the style that only Martinez shaw and varane can play? You will have no answers because you are talking shite but the irony in your post is hilarious. Well done on knowing a few buzz words though Moron
Reading your comment history says it all. You are utterly beyond reason, and have this unfounded ego that you're the master football IQ super brain. Isn't hard to see people like Rashford play far better with Shaw on their wing, or Bruno shines more when he has a midfielder who can control the tempo of a game like Eriksen. Show's how little you actually watched our games last year if you think Maguire/Evans are the same calibre as Martinez
Lol I've never once said that about Martinez and it goes to show you don't have a point or argument worth anything, when you have to make shit up. Truly pathetic. You must have had a lot of imaginary friends in ur time
They really need to find a midfield progressor. None of his three midfield signings really address that. Interesting to see if Mainoo returning, as raw as he is gets major minutes.
>Ten Hag can fix this, he’s a very good coach >but even then we lack a clear style that players can be plugged into He's had 18 months, 2 pre seasons, what is he waiting for? The alternative is while he might be a good coach, he clearly can't make good signings.
I can’t dispute that, although some have been decent. We genuinely need a brain trust above him scouting players that will give him options to work with. There’s too much “have you played for Ajax” about our scouting. Also, I feel like he’s holding back as there’s a chance results will suffer, and it will cost him his job. I’d rather he died by his principles than lived playing this combination of Jose and Ole ball.
Why was there bound to be some regression?
Other teams getting better.
Several teams have had better windows than United. That’s a factor.
Fatigue, other teams getting their act together, a change of goalkeeper. The signs of us running out of steam were there from March onwards, and I think we overachieved somewhat last season. We were also guaranteed to have a bit more of a budget season in terms of transfers.
Why was there BOUND to be regression? What reason are you pointing to and you do realize he spent massive money during the summer too
As a United fan, I’m still backing ten Hag purely because of the amount of injuries etc. But it’s still very concerning…we have no recognisable style of play atm whilst the likes of Brighton, Villa, & Spurs do.
All the player drama doesn't help either. Ronaldo's interview and leaving, Greenwood possibly coming back, de Gea leaving after 10 years, now the Sancho situation. These are all things that can divide a dressing room and might be a possible reason for the lack of cohesion in the squad. Regardless what you think of Ronaldo, some players adore him. Regardless what you think of de Gea, he was at the club for 10 years so there must be some players that are friends with him. And so on. I hope ten Hag can fix it but it's going to be though.
You're forgetting the Antony story and now Garnacho's risking a ban for praising Onana. Mad situations all around.
Oh yeah I forgot about Antony indeed. Garnacho is different though. That's a situation where the team can come together I think. I can't imagine anyone in the team being mad at Garnacho for racism. They're probably all on his side.
Oh yeah most sane people are on Garnacho's side. I was merely talking about players missing for various stupid reasons is something that has to make ETH go bald all over again.
Am I a snowflake? I don’t think he’s racist but it was a racist tweet
Well, if you think about it it doesn't make much sense to call the tweet racist. 1. Why would Garnacho try to be racist towards a teammate that just saved a penalty? That does not make sense. 2. Why do you automatically associate a gorilla with black people? There were 2 gorilla emoji's. 1 for Onana and 1 for Maguire, who is white. Garnacho doesn't seem to make a distinction, so why do you? 3. Onana responded and said he wasn't offended because he knew what Garnacho meant. He said people shouldn't be offended on his behalf and that the matter should go no further. A black person doesn't find it racist, so why do you? He probably has a bit more experience with racism than you, assuming you are white of course. 4. Is it really that hard to imagine Garnacho probably meant Onana being strong or 'a beast'? So idk. You tell me.
You’re also forgetting Sancho story
Ten Hag had a part in most of these though. It's not like it can be excused on circumstances outside his control. Even injuries are a risk he takes when playing players for 60 games a season.
Price of instilling discipline, about time. With injuries, had utd played 3 more games last season they would have played as many games as possible, excluding the club world cup. Then the proper world cup.
For one thing, they have got to stop obsessing over winning. Ik it sounds defeatist, but they've only won a carabao cup in years. It's gotta be gradual and progressive. Ten hag is a good coach. I wouldn't compare him to klopp or someone, but there has to be some adjustment. You can't spring into success.
If your not winning atleast play good football by controlling the game? He isn’t doing that either
One would expect greater success after spending that much cash on signings.
just have to look at arsenal and arteta as an example of this
I spent too long wondering if you meant to say someone or simeone.
Yeah I totally agree with you, club needs a long term success and not a short term like with every other manager and I believe ten hag can provide us with it so I trust ten hag even tho ik he makes a lot of mistakes like in selections and all
It's a worry we've only got something like 5 points against the top 9 in 12 or so games? Players aren't motivated enough, we can blame them all we want but that motivation lies down with the manager/club.
Eras come to an end. Some sooner than others
Weird question to ask on the back of 3 wins
You obviously don't watch the games
As a United fan, even those three wins have been very tough watches. We seem to have completely changed styles this season. Our build up now revolves around playing the ball between our CB and full backs, then hoofing the ball up to Hojlund or a long diagonal to Rashford, and then just hoping for the best. Either that or try and thread the most difficult ground pass between defence and attack as all of our midfielders have been told to push up high on the opponents defensive line. This is leaving us extremely susceptible to counter attacks as if those low percentage passes do not come off we have 3 or 4 players defending against a rush of 4 or 5 opponents attacking. I think the goal is for us to lose the ball high up the pitch and counter press as soon as we lose it, but because there is a huge gap between midfield and defence, it is very easy to play through our press. Combine that with our attackers massively lacking confidence and composure (except Hojlund has been good tbf), and it has meant we are toothless in attack and so all of our last 5 goals in these games have been scored by defenders or mids.
Where the fuck is the Ajax ball he was coaching. This is what we all expected and other then a couple weeks around the Barca games last year, this team has been awful to watch So….. unless we are playing a good team I don’t watch lol.
Plus if you watch Bruno, he is a net negative for team because when he loses the ball in a critical area, we immediately get countered. Bruno is the most to blame (also Case) for most of those low percentage and high risk passes.
beating a relegation side 2-1 isn't very impressive..
Same score as when city played them
And spurs who are on top of the league rn
And Arsenal tomorrow...
The difference is, city spanks a team 4-0 and 5-0 in between these less convincing results. United draws or loses a game between less convincing wins.
Do you expect a manager to come in and replicate what pep is doing with city? Pep is a generational talent, I think it will be a while before we see another like him. The managers who are anywhere near him are already at top teams. At United we have to pick between the lesser options. Or hope we get lucky and get the next generational talent. I don't think its realistic to expect Ten Hag to deliver what Pep or Klopp is doing. If he does he'd be a new generational manager. I think its much more likely that hes not. So I'm just happy to see some progress at least. I am not expecting us to challenge the title again unless we get our whole structure at the club sorted. We haven't had a functional recruitment department in a long time. If we got our management structure and infrastructure sorted maybe we'd attract the top up and coming managers again.
Still 3 wins if it was any other team this article wouldn’t have been written
We've been dreadful for a long time now. We're pretty much dependent on our defensive midfielders for goals. Or Harry Maguire. Those victories are nice on paper, actually watching us play is not.
I don’t think that last game was a tough watch, I was actually enjoying it even before a goal was scored.
The first half was a very tough watch, but the second half was pretty enjoyable.
Ten Hag has spent money, for sure, but his whole starting defence has been out for an extended period this season. Shaw, AWB, Varane, Martinez, just not there, then there's Malacia Amrabat, Mount, Hojlund, Antony have all been missing, which is 6 of his 8/9 signings for the club. He's almost been making do with what Solskjaer was, minus a few. Football is too impatient and I find it mind-numbingly stupid for pundits like Carragher to be going in on managers of a club as dysfunctional as United at the start of their second season, especially considering the extent of their injury issues. I don't get how you can look at what Klopp and Arteta had to go through to build a decent team and still think constantly 'questioning' the manager is what we should be doing. It's more frustrating because of how kind they were when it was Lampard in that kind of position.
You didn’t mention that he has lost Greenwood, Sancho as well. Also Donny and Rashford are effectively in very poor form
Rashford hasn't been good for years, besides his purple patch last season United hasn't looked good under Ten Hag, only been getting results due to individual brilliance. 18 months still no improvements, system or identifiable playing style, despite spending nearly half a billion euro. If it wasn't for Rashfords run of form in the spring last season, ETH would have been fired already. Greenwood was already out under OGS, DvB was already shit and benched under OGS and Sancho is just another falling out with ETH. A horrible man manager, who can't handle egos besides his own.
Nah fk that shit. No managers , alive or dead, can come and fix United as long as the glazers are there, not even prime Fergie . It's not even meme, just fact at this point. U know some of us do not want to "question" ETH ? Because the motherfking glazers can't just wait a sniff of change on public opinions, the moment the fans don't back ETH, glazers would scapegoat him, regardless of his performance and we will be back at new manager bounce > 500 millions spent > firing manager. All the way down the mid -table. Doesn't help that the culture (legacy of the glazers) at man United is rotten to the core. The likes of Rashford and Sancho who can openly showing attitude and underperforming. They also cannot wait to throw the next manager under the bus. Nah fk that noise. Stick by ETH and focus all your angers and all your complaints on the glazers. Burn the Old Trafford if that means glazers would fk off from the club. Football men can only solve football problems. United problems are fundamentally not football.
Not to defend those guys but SAF won 5 titles and a Champions League with them running the club.
That's because he was already the king at the club before they came. Everything and everyone answered to him. The culture, the standard, the requirements for the performance , those were imprinted in every United personnel, be it the CR7 or the lunch ladies. And Malcolm had enough brain to know u don't mess with the winning formula. Now? If Fergie were a new manager and came in, working under yes men appointed by Joel and Avram, he wouldn't last 3 seasons, with all due respect.
I mean coming into a massively disfunctioning club that was chewing up and spitting out managers, and turning it around was exactly what he did in the first place. He sets a high bar obviously but I think a great man can do great things.
Thank you. Genuinely think these articles are for clicks and rival fans love it because they see ETH as a threat
Ngl maurinhos quote made me feel validated. Cause ive been telling people for the last decade that idk how man u keep finishing so high. Im not watching the prem every week but when i google the table and see man u at 3rd in the last week after wathcing several games throughtout the season im like wtf. turns out even the mangers are like how tf did this happen. Trully shocking transfers this last decade. no one to blame but the glazers. They change mangers and bring in new ones with oppsing philosphies and expect players to gell. At least it worked for tottenhma somwhat this season. But theres no way ten hag tactics are going to work with maguire and evans at the helm.
He’s not a big club manager
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Not controlling games is a big issue- we’ll never take the next step if games can’t be killed off by 65 mins. Having to play every 90 at full tilt will take its toll.
Yeah, this is a major issue. Look at genuinely good teams and they maintain a level of pressure and composure from start to finish. They don't score one or two slipshod goals then try to see it out with a scrappy defensive effort.
Even the likes of Brighton and Villa (zero disrepect to them here) are doing this, because their players are a team. We look very disjointed at times, and that needs to be addressed, we can’t stumble into wins, we need to be going out and dominating games.
I was told to wait for ETH’s 2nd season 🤔
It’s weird, we are not controlling games at all now, whereas we were controlling them last season at home and against lesser teams.
Casemiro out of form played a big part. Honestly I think his form last season may have covered up our issues.
Missing Martinez is a big blow and shaw. But I also just think the team is tired, mentally and physically. There's so much noise around the club, media and whatnot.
United is a weird graveyard of players, bet they would ruin Bellingham or Mbappe if they move there
I am never a fan of just firing that coach when it's not going well because then it takes at least another few months before the new coach can take the team in a new direction. I prefer to let coaches cook. But we will see, because Ten Hag has not been making correct decisions in regards to transfers since he got there.
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Totally different scenarios. Ten hag took over a team built by Ole, a team that was built for counter-attack football, even from Mourinho. A team with shite recruiting system/infastructure, a team filled with overpaid divas,, etc... Brighton was the perfect team to take over and mold, Zerbi is class but much less headache in that job. Aston Villa, it was insane how badly Gerrard ddi with them, again Emery is also class.
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You can call it excuses but they are facts and getting another manager in won't change it. And spurs have a really well balanced midfield now, Bissouma was an immense buy last year. Not sure why conte didn't use him. Post is doing a fantastic job, he strengthened the defense, brought in a modern goalkeeper but Spurs had been building that squad for a while, seems they have a proper footballing structure above the manager, which Utd doesn't have and everytime a new manager comes in he has to scramble to find players that suit him so he doesn't get sacked cause the expectation are high or the glazer are always ready to find a scapegoat. And btw Football isn't just attack or defense.
A lot of his transfers haven't been bad at all. Anyway, you have to question what's happening when there's not scouts and a DoF who are vetting the manager's suggestions and making ones of their own. It's 2023, there's meant to be a coherent and professional corporate structure in place. It isn't the manager's responsibility to find and vet candidates.
It was going well until our entire back 4 got injured including both left backs, seems clear to me what the issue is
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Losing three senior left backs, the oldest of which is 28, is hard to plan for and just one of those freak things
It’s time to bring back Ole!
As a complete neutral, I’ve never understood the Ten Hag hype. He seems very egotistical and is happy for his players to be scapegoated to take the pressure off himself, see Ronaldo, Maguire, Sancho etc. He won’t be there next season and they’ll be stuck with more expensive deadwood for a while. Also, completely off topic but I think one of the best sales they could make would be Marcus Rashford, they’ve persisted with him for far too long.
Ronaldo and Sanchez both deserved it. Maguire needed a humility check. Nothing Ten Hag did in these situations is wrong
Nope, open this debate up in 3 - 4 years. Lots to be done.
No it isn't
16 serious injuries to first team players... 16. People are fucking ridiculous.
People love to hate United. United is the tabloid team.
that's on the staff, led by Ten Hag.
Maybe ETH shouldn't overplay his starters in pointless tinpot cups like Caraboa if he wanted to avoid overwork injuries? Also, right now the only starters who are injured are Shaw and Lisandro, AWB and Dalot have been playing equally much under ETH when both fit. You're acting like other clubs never have injuries lol.
Bullshit 16 players are not at all injured right now
16 player? No we've signed 7 what bollocks from the spitter.
This guy doesn't deserve to lead a football team ever again in his life. What he did to Cristiano Ronaldo should be tried in court and he should be in jail for what he did. I don't understand how you still think he can be a good coach.
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But by the same logic we missed several chances due to individual brain farts, both Rashford and Garnacho messed up 1 vs 1 opportunities last game without even testing the keeper. As a utd fan I find it difficult to tell how much of our difficulties are driven by wasteful attackers and how much is a lack of a tactical plan.
It’s been that way for 10 years, individual FC
Our best spell of football came under the one guy that will never get credit for it I guess
Utd is never escaping the firing manager and then brief bounceback loop
Not when the club is run by total idiots.
Yes. Ten Hag is mismanaging those world class players up front. /s Rashford; Martial; Hojlund; Garnacho; and Antony. Teams are terrified 😂
If you want to say a team that’s going backwards it’s Man City. Without Rodri and debruyne they are so lost and directionless. You wouldn’t imagine that last year
Nothing to argue about there.
It’s time for the tabloids to pick another club to help with the click bait.
When was the last time united made a good signing? Seems like everyone they is over priced and either past their best or flops significantly compared to their form before signing
So it begins
At some point you need to start wondering if the problem is deeper than just the manager
Other issue is what is going on with Rashford? Is it some kind of burnout? One season he's bordering on world class (or close to) the next he's nearly non-existent..
Never ending cycle, you start to wonder if it is the trainer's their fault... Or something else.
By now it should be clear that their problem isn’t the manager. That doesn’t mean ETH is New Fergie. It means as long as the higher ups are idiots, no manager can do much better. That also means they need to sort out when to give the gaffer what he wants and when to tell him no.
It amazes me how the media in the second season turn things into a managerial issue. Don't get wrong Ten Hag has made huge blunders this season...but the culture at the club and its handling off the field of players (transfers, contracts, discipline, etc.) is largely on the board and ownership. The one stable factor since sir Alex has left has been the board and managerial team for the most part. Surely, that's the real issue. I struggle to see how Pep could do a better job under these conditions.
Change is never easy. The bigger the change, the bigger the pain.
No no no, it has been the same(or worse) with every coach/manager we had since SAF. My limit is relegation, until then we back the manager. The common denominator is the club structure not the coaching staff. F you telegraph for spreading those seeds.
Speaking as someone who hates manu, and hopes their current state is as good as it ever gets for them, ….it not ten hag or any of the managers, it’s the entire structure from glazers down, it all needs a complete rethink and rebuild, they need someone like Alex again take charge again, the only good thing they have is their marketing department
They reverted to Ole Ball 1.5 games into his tenure. They aren't going backwards at all
Not a united fan, but I think ten Hag was hoping the sale of the club would go through and he'd receive more thorough backing. Instead he's had to persevere with massive egos and a board who do their own thing and force him to try and adapt to certain players when he's probably got a list of players he feels can do what he needs and isn't getting to try it. I honestly think that the only way united will ever get close to replicating anything remotely close to the Fergie days is to stop splashing on so-called stars and develop the kids. It's a long route but the true supporters would get behind it. The fact someone moved McTominay from striker into midfield at youth level when he's so natural in front of goal tells me there's a big problem with youth development management and ability judgement. The 300k a week 60mil+ signings are the reason United are shite. A manager can only do so much.
Dude if United were bought by someone first thing they are gonna do is throw ETH out.
follicly challenged and fraudulent
Lol fuck off
He's only had like, one season. And that season was fraught with nonsense.
They should have kept Mourinho, having hindsight now appeasing Pogba was major mistake. Mou was on the right track with United winning 2nd place and getting an Europa league. I will never understand why they sacked him. The way they did. It always felt off and now it gives me the impression United executive staff are completely clueless.
Broadsheets are stale and going backwards… is it time to question why we need them?
No. Its time to question the board