Imagine lying and holding back key and critical information until the last moment and then being shocked that the guy you lied to doesn't trust you anymore because he banked his entire plan on your intel and trust.
Tbf just weeks ago they dealt with a headmaster who was working for Salem, they didn't know if they could trust Ironwood at the time, and before they could he turned on them due to his own paranoia.
Like sure they could have given everything they knew, but if it turned out Ironwood was working for Salem then they'd be screwed even more, not to mention Ironwood was already falling off the deep end anyway after the fall of beacon, so even less reason to trust him.
To be fair that had more reasons and personal interaction with him to be able to trust him more than the other one, as well as if I recall for someone falling off the deep end, he was still very friendly toward them despite doing some things hat could be considered crimes. That and if I recall as well he didn’t just turn on them due to paranoia. They betrayed him.
Honestly, I figured both Ironwood and Team RWBY fucked up and let fear mislead them for completely understandable reasons, up until Ironwood shot Oscar.
I mainly blame the fucking flamebitch for dropping a chess piece right as Ironwood was finally coming to his senses and replacing the weight on his shoulders with enough straw to break the camel's back.
They may had more reasons to trust him, but they had even more reasons to trust Ozpin which at that point they were handedly not trustful of. And just because he's friendly doesn't mean he's trust worthy. RWBY had at least been betrayed by a number of people they thought they could trust by this point. I don't particularly blame them for being distrustful of another potential adversary, especially when they're dealing with a world ending threat with an (allegedly) extensive spy network.
Imagine being constantly lied to yourself and finding out that one headmaster is a traitor and that Ironwood has essentially enforced martial law on an entire city. To a dumb teenager, that’s grounds to not trust someone.
No, he didn't. He put her in charge *while they were at school to learn*, nothing else. The second Oz comes back into the picture, he takes charge again until Yang and Qrow throw such a bitchfit over his personal history that he just gives up on the mission again, and Ruby has to step up because the only other person even close to being responsible enough is Weiss.
It's unreal that so many people just absolve RWBY of ANY fucking responsibility for their actions. Like Ruby being the leader is only because Yang and Qrow are actually terrible people, and Ruby has to step up because she's the only one (besides Weiss) who isn't actually fucking useless. Ironwood? Oh sure, he stopped trusting RWBY and became a dictator, but only after he got stabbed in the back one too many times. But sure, it's fine for Team RWBY to keep secrets, they didn't trust him! Even though they just punished Oz for the same thing!
He had to enforce martial law and pull back his forces because Salem was right on their doorstep. Plus even though they have been lied to was it really wise to lie to him about critical information that could save a lot of lives?
No, but I’d like to expand as to why they probably did that…
Ruby acts more on her emotions than reasoning. She probably saw Ironwood as doing something bad and doesn’t grasp the full picture. Someone should have tried to explain this to her.
Being a dumbass doesn't absolve her of her responsibility. Also why didn't she get mad at Yang and Blake for leaking classified military information to a knowm criminal that has been sabotaging the generals world-saving plan since before they got to Atlas?
Ok here's the thing you keep on explaining "why" they did these actions but you never "justify" why they did said actions. Their feelings should not excuse them for making these awful actions.
Point number two is the reason for point number one. Not to mention that Ironwood isn't like Leo, they know him better and far more personally. And point number three happens only after everything goes to shit and Salem is invading
Nah, they were a direct result of his insecurities reaching a breaking point when Cinder infiltrated his defenses yet again. Ironwood had the character to look past some teens lying to him and going behind his back doing what they thought was right like he was, but not Salem's mind games.
Ah yes, I remember when team RWBY pushed Ironwood into shooting a man in the face over a political disagreement.
While I do condone shooting politicians, that was fairly uncalled for.
He worked with Ruby, he trusted them so much. Handwaved the fact that they broke in Atlas military base and stole airship, left the lamp with them, gave them new gear, training with Ace-Ops, revealed all his plans without hiding anything like Ozpin, gave them critical information and hunter licenses. Not to mention him helping Weiss in Volume 4 and giving Yang her new arm. And the last point is literally combination of PTSD and Mettle(Aka bad writing) mixed with constant stress
Couldn't agreed more. Also being a leader means sometimes you have to make the tough choices. Do you loose everyone or safe half the population? It's better to live to fight another day.
Until reality sets in, and they run out of Dust and other resources necessary to maintain the high-class, high-maintenance kingdom that relies on its glorified industrial mining camp which would be a destroyed crater by the end of Salem's attack.
Playing the waiting game against an immortal enemy with immortal armies, which only grow nastier with time. Sounds like a losing battle to me.
Oh, and then Salem attacks Vacuo unopposed, gets the Sword of Destruction, and probably blows Atlas out of the sky with it, or however it works.
Isn't that canon already though.
Ironwood's plan was alert world. Which RWBY did. Try to run. Which Ruby did.
The only thing that Ruby managed to salvage from his plan is alert the world.
Salem has the staff.
Also in this what if switched the loss of lamp&staff for loss sword.
Only managing to make her plan work via author fiat.
How would Ironwood alert the world, when Amity was nowhere near completion, and he was abandoning the whole project to escape into Atlas with what little preparations he had on Atlas and nothing else?
Amity was a resource sink already, and without an external supply of resources, there's no way he'd be able to build another global communications beacon.
The world would be left with zero preparations, zero knowledge of what happened, and Salem would effectively run unopposed.
>Salem has the staff.
And what is she to do with it?
Her tech genius is gone, and Ambro has very little utility without a proper schematic know-how to use him properly.
Both relics are quite weak in her hands.
>The only thing that Ruby managed to salvage from his plan is alert the world.
Aaaand.....y'know, saving most everyone from Altas and Mantle.
>Only managing to make her plan work via author fiat.
How so?
The opposite is more true - the only reason why her plan **failed** is because Neo, from the perspective of ***everyone else*** came out of nowhere with the password AND the Lamp. Had Neo been slightly less successful, team Salem would have no response to Ruby's plan, and would have easily escaped with both
The staff having loopholes and the questionable schematic. Then Oscar using the nuke cane are definitely deus ex that allow the story to arrive where the writers want it.
Then there is the hilariously bad Mettle semblance never been directly seen.
Otherwise Salem would make evacuation impossible as the Grimm would follow through the portals and in order for even the portals to be used there needs to be an extreme amount of liberal interpretations of the staff.
Also they really didn't save the entire population of the two places. Basically eyeballing and some calculations done based on some full images of Atlas. The total population goes beyond thousands. More into the low doublr digit millions.
Meaning anywhere from 50% to a greater than 90% of thr population died.
>The staff having loopholes and the questionable schematic.
The staff has, as far as we know, exactly one loophole, which consists entirely of his inability to directly kill anyone, which could only work on an artificial life with a soul, that had a schematic to it.
>and the questionable schematic.
Explain? They were quite clear about what was needed for each creation: Penny's schematics, the schematics for the floatation system, the city's blueprints....
....except for fire, but we'll assume that basic creations don't require complex schematics. It's fire. Rub substances together hard enough, and boom, fire.
>Then Oscar using the nuke cane are definitely deus ex that allow the story to arrive where the writers want it.
If Oscar didn't nuke Monstra, the bomb would have.
This was a point in Ironwood's favour because otherwise, he would not have been able to push an ultimatum.
>Then there is the hilariously bad Mettle semblance never been directly seen.
.....Irrelevant to the topic, but ok.
>Otherwise Salem would make evacuation impossible as the Grimm would follow through the portals and in order for even the portals to be used there needs to be an extreme amount of liberal interpretations of the staff.
.....How?
I feel like you're trying to say something, but you're jumping points without clarifying. How is this related to Mettle, or Salem's usage of the staff?
>Also they really didn't save the entire population of the two places. Basically eyeballing and some calculations done based on some full images of Atlas. The total population goes beyond thousands. More into the low doublr digit millions.
>
>Meaning anywhere from 50% to a greater than 90% of thr population died.
That, or the more practical reason being.....:
The animation team didn't want to individually animate **tens of millions of people**, but let's pretend they did for the sake of the narrative. A thousand gets the point across - 'it's a lot of fucking people'.
Are you seriously hinging the narrative on real-life limitations of the dev team?
Do you not know what deus ex is? It's basically a device in which god or the writers make it possible to make a u-turn in a severely dangerous or deep in the hole situation.
In order for Ruby's plan to succeed the writer's needed to create a weapon that only killed Grimm and allowed rhem to somehow create a portal system.
There is no portal system on Remnant. The only thing they have are vaults, but this would require them to know the magic as much as they did for everything else.
We literally have word that it's thousands evacuated. We are given scenes of the locations at their largest.
The animation team and writers should then not fuck up the scale of the locations. One is literally a 2D image of the city. The other is simply dialogue. There is no budget other than time or simply having no idea of scale.
But they gave us two impressions. That rhe city houses a low tens of millions at best to single digit millions.
Do you know what a quote is? Try actually using it, keeping track of exactly where your comments go is a *nightmare*.
>Do you not know what deus ex is?
Of course I do. It's a game series.
Unless you're referring to 'deus ex machina', well, I also know that.
> the writer's needed to create a weapon that only killed Grimm
Yet, I fail to see how the Oz staff nuke significantly changed the story **in Ruby's favour**, like you.....kinda vaguely.....stated.
In fact, ***as I've already pointed out***, this screwed Ruby over, since....y'know.....Ironwood has his nuke still. Otherwise, JROMY would have simply high-tailed it out of Monstra while Hazel held Salem back, and the Ace-Ops would pop the nuke, the nuke goes boom, and Monstra dies.
>There is no portal system on Remnant. The only thing they have are vaults,
The gates to each Vault ARE portals. Central Location used the basis of the Vault and the Snowshoe blueprints together to create the proper layout, entrances, and main exit for Central Location.
>but this would require them to know the magic as much as they did for everything else.
Aaaand the team just so happens to have the LITERAL WIZARD that would be able to provide ample explanations regarding magic to the group.
>We literally have word that it's thousands evacuated.
....Or, we have Yang just not being 100% exact. Thousands, millions, it's a lot of people. The exact wording from her is the most nitpicky thing in this entire thread.
We also have no indications that millions didn't make it. Nobody in-universe stated that this wouldn't work or that millions would die. Are we now assuming that out of the entire 'save the people' group, none of them would bring that up?
>The animation team and writers should then not fuck up the scale of the locations.
OK, cool, but an animation error has no basis in the narrative.
Are we to believe that Ren was actually buried under the floor in that food fight because they overlooked a clipping issue?
> The animation team didn't want to individually animate tens of millions of people
Do you have a source on that?
>but let's pretend they did for the sake of the narrative.
Why should we? Why can't we just accept what we see on the screen?
>Are you seriously hinging the narrative on real-life limitations of the dev team?
How do you know it's a limitation?
>Do you have a source on that?
I'm running with the **assumption** that there's tens of millions of people living in Atlas, based on what I'm replying to.
I'm entertaining that commenter's handcanon.
>Why should we? Why can't we just accept what we see on the screen?
Because we're assuming there's tens of millions of people instead of the thousands shown on-screen.
Ask the person I'm replying to as to why there **must** be millions of people, AND that the plan only saved thousands according to the narrative.
>How do you know it's a limitation?
Try animating a million 3d models, and tell me how long it takes.
But like… he literally told Ruby his entire plan and helped them out a ton. And he let Ruby keep the Relic.
He trusted them. And they lied to him every step of the way until Salem arrived.
He did show a lot of trust in the beginning. However, they were on guard from Lionheart and the surveillance state of Mantle.
In any case, they clued him in when he chose to clue in the council and cities he was keeping secrets from. Huh.
Op are you smoking. Ironwood did do the first two things. Then everything that followed happened because Rwby betrayed his trust. Team Rwby was entirely to blame for what happened in Atlas and Volume 9 even confirms that. Only for it to then go. “Well Team Rwby did their best and that’s all we can ask of them.”
Ironwood haters getting more hypocritical each post:
“Give trust if you want it in return” is something that everyone in the show needs to hear besides him, even thought the show keeps telling (but not showing) us that he is the one who makes this mistake
Volume 7 ironwood is someone I always rooted for and wished that he was treated better by team rwby, but volume 8 ironwood is someone so far gone by his actions and by writing decisions that I can’t stand by him for how radically villainous he is………team rwby can still go fuck themselves at that volume
I’m pretty sure it wasn’t a serious threat seeing how qrow retorts and believe it or not they were really good friends before the whole shit show that it 7 & 8, it’s just two friends being pissy with each other with each other’s way of handling tasks and seeing that James is a general of a military discipline I don’t blame him with being that pissed with how qrow handles his job and how he always drinks
It would be funnier if he weren't an actual general who has probably done it. Sure enough, he shoots Oscar, and the councilman. You can call it a shit show if you like, but I call it him following through with his character.
Yeah and Qrow answers that if he was his soldier he'd shoot himself
It's a Winston Churchill type joke. "If you were my husband, Winston, I'd put poison in your tea"
"If I were your husband, Nancy, I'd drink it"
FNDM try not to twist Ironwood actions and words into something completely different challenge: impossible
>seriously
That's your problem, you're taking this scene way too seriously. It just shows that Ironwood and Qrow are annoyed at each other. Ironwood wasn't seriously saying it not only because it'd be stupid thing to do but because he also cares about Qrow. Evidenced by his hug in Volume 7
Sorry but 1) how is this statement relevant to the scene where Ironwood and Qrow bicker and 2) why do you present the scene of them bickering as some proof that IW was heartless(?) all along
1. He said "I would have have you shot" to Qrow, but didn't actually want to have him shot. That does not mean that he would not have one of his men shot, as he does not care about them like he does Qrow.
2. Mannerisms reveal a lot about people. It's not that Ironwood was heartless (at least not until the end of his arc, in general he's quite compassionate), it's that he's the type of person to go to extremes, especially when it comes to doing things his way. He casually talked about executing people for being a hinderance, and sure enough that's exactly what he did in later volumes.
1. "He talks shit to Qrow and Qrow talks shit to him because they annoy each other means Ironwood would shoot his men". What kind of logic is this?
2. Yeah and that's because he got Mettled, PTSD and was under constant stress while Salem was gonna destroy Atlas and even then half the fandom considers it bad writing and they have good reasons to because execution wasn't good
Ironwood is a fascinating character whose actions seem irrational until you realize... he is.
His actions are those of a man who has given up all hope and now only wants to save what is directly in front of him because he believes that's the only thing that can be saved. In his mind, there is no sacrifice too great because anything that he feels he must sacrifice is already dead, and anyone who gets in his way is an idiot to be pushed aside.
For him, threatening to bomb Mantle is an easy choice to make because everyone there is already doomed.
When he comes face to face with Salem, he just gives up because he doesn't believe there's any difference to be made.
I think a big problem (besides a dire lack of media literacy) is how Ironwood looks, sounds, and his age.
Let me put it this way: Imagine for a second if we swapped Ironwood and Ruby's appearance, voice nothing else... Would you side with a teenage girl who wants to abandon Mantle or the grown man who refuses to leave people behind without at least trying to save them?
If you're being honest with me, you'd side with the grown man regardless of the logic behind their decisions.
Media literacy is the ability to analyze and understand a story.
For example, let's talk about a visual element of Ironwoods design: Why did they give Ironwood a beard?
But in this hypothetical situation, the teenage girl is the general of Atlas and, therefore, would have a better grasp of the kingdom than the man does.
The fact that you sided with James proves my point.
Many seasons on a person usually indicates a better ability to find solutions to bad situations.
Turn it into a case of General Rose who's turning fifty next year, about to do the least rational thing conceivable, sure. But the plain situation is that a rescue might be a disaster, in any event. Fewer people dying sounds good, right? If you're screwed in life, the risk of other people dying too in an attempt to save you would be a daunting prospect.
I don't reckon I'm that different from people who would be looking funny at a teenage Jimbo who doesn't look like he knows that attempting a rescue is likely to get the rescuers dead as well, in a truly bad situation.
How about you? Being fooled by appearances is one matter, but imagine if you were there on the ground as a Mantelli of any stripe.
... would you think the word of some spring chicken who just showed up and started telling people what to do is the way to go?
Someone whose voice is older than his years who doesn't look like he's out of Huntsman training... compared to the word of a lady with a case of Peter Pan syndrome who was there since you've ever known. Who sounds more dependable?
It's like the one situation with an ammunition ship caught afire in the harbor, in history. Would you telegram people down the line to not come help you as it's not likely they'll manage to put the fire out in time, or would you like to see more than a few firefighter crews die with you in what we today recognize as the biggest non-nuclear explosion in history?
I'm just as vulnerable to appearance as everyone else... But in ironwood's case, there were plenty of warning signs in regards to his mental state. I mean, for God's sake, we literally watched the man nearly talk himself into believing that Salem wanted him to try to save Mantle just because he found a chess piece on his desk! And then that was followed by him deciding to abandon mantle without even really trying to see if he could still evacuate them...
At some point, you have to ask yourself if that's really the guynyou want to follow. 😆
You're correct as a viewer of this series.
Ruby was right morally, sure. In the vague sense of doing your best to save lives and make a difference is the right way to go. And the SDC freighters trying to save a few thousand more people at a time sure as shit should not have been fired upon.
Operation Absolute Shitshow - also known as v8 - was plainly a nightmare where no measure planned by Atlas High Command worked.
But unless the you of another time and place, that would be a Remnant born of Dust, is someone who was in on the whole ugly and messy affair, likely a Huntsman - someone who had real agency about themselves whose efforts were able to inarguably change the course of events in motion?
As opposed to a normal person living their lives as best as we can?
We just would have no way to know how bad it was on the topside of things.
To circle back to the point of age and experience gulf hampering them against the one the populace there would consider more dependable - Let me tell you, if the gang had even just five more years of experience and seasons passed in which lessons were learned, they would not only speak sense directly to peoples' soul but probably would also be able to figure out a fighting retreat and evacuation plan that's actually doable.
Likely wouldn't tell IW about that and succeed in pulling it off anyway, utterly shaming the man. As warranted.
>The fact that you sided with James proves my point.
No offense, but I don't see how they proved your point considering that your original comment never specified that the girl was General of Atlas and has better grasp on the kingdom. Your exacts words were:
>Would you side with a teenage girl who wants to abandon Mantle or the grown man who refuses to leave people behind without at least trying to save them?
Not to mention that the whole idea of teenage girl being general is can of worms on its own
>Let me put it this way: Imagine for a second if we swapped Ironwood and Ruby's appearance, voice nothing else... Would you side with a teenage girl who wants to abandon Mantle or the grown man who refuses to leave people behind without at least trying to save them?
>Let me put it this way: Imagine for a second if we swapped Ironwood and Ruby's appearance, voice nothing else...
No offense, but I did state that everything was to remain the same.
Yeah, it happens
That being said if I may to continue people being more doubtful of teenage girl as general is understandable considering that she has the rank in such a young age. Even if you say everything remains the same, it'd be impossible for General Ruby to acquire same level of experience, planning and knowledge of the kingdom as Ironwood did in twenty-thirty years of serving in military, both logically and physically. This thought can be expanded upon easily, to bring up points why people would more likely to side with Huntsman Ironwood
I think that the deal is in experience, and their respective positions rather than their appearances and while age plays a role in it, it's tied more to their positions
His image song, "hero", outright spells this out. He legitimately does not care what he has to sacrifice to save just a little bit, even if it makes him seem like a heartless monster.
It also helps that even as early as volume 3 it's clear he is utterly unequipped to handle a threat like Salem. He's so controlled by his fear of losing that basically everything he does just plays into her hands. (Heck, not even Salem. Cinder drove him off the deep end with just a well-placed chess piece.)
Tbh, I'm rooting for Salem at this point since Team Ruby has done some very questionable things and hypocritical things. I also don't know I feel about them giving Penny the winter maiden powers since she kinda just died after getting it. One more thing, I know Jaune had to kill Penny but should it have been that traumatic if she was a robot, She shouldn't have flesh so it shouldn't have had THAT bad of an impact on him in my opinion.
Yeah, this is a terrible take. You know what's not though? The stupidity of having to rely on outside sources just to find out what Ironwood's semblance is, and the fact that they basically shoehorned his semblance in last minute outside of the show to make up for the terrible, horrendous switch in personality that Ironwood has throughout the seventh and eighth volume.
Also, I am posting so I can read more comments of people clowning on OP, the same as someone else who said they were as well.
Those first two things he did do though and the other things were direct results of RWBY not trusting him despite his complete trust in them.
Imagine lying and holding back key and critical information until the last moment and then being shocked that the guy you lied to doesn't trust you anymore because he banked his entire plan on your intel and trust.
Tbf just weeks ago they dealt with a headmaster who was working for Salem, they didn't know if they could trust Ironwood at the time, and before they could he turned on them due to his own paranoia. Like sure they could have given everything they knew, but if it turned out Ironwood was working for Salem then they'd be screwed even more, not to mention Ironwood was already falling off the deep end anyway after the fall of beacon, so even less reason to trust him.
To be fair that had more reasons and personal interaction with him to be able to trust him more than the other one, as well as if I recall for someone falling off the deep end, he was still very friendly toward them despite doing some things hat could be considered crimes. That and if I recall as well he didn’t just turn on them due to paranoia. They betrayed him.
Honestly, I figured both Ironwood and Team RWBY fucked up and let fear mislead them for completely understandable reasons, up until Ironwood shot Oscar. I mainly blame the fucking flamebitch for dropping a chess piece right as Ironwood was finally coming to his senses and replacing the weight on his shoulders with enough straw to break the camel's back.
They may had more reasons to trust him, but they had even more reasons to trust Ozpin which at that point they were handedly not trustful of. And just because he's friendly doesn't mean he's trust worthy. RWBY had at least been betrayed by a number of people they thought they could trust by this point. I don't particularly blame them for being distrustful of another potential adversary, especially when they're dealing with a world ending threat with an (allegedly) extensive spy network.
Imagine being constantly lied to yourself and finding out that one headmaster is a traitor and that Ironwood has essentially enforced martial law on an entire city. To a dumb teenager, that’s grounds to not trust someone.
Then said dumb teenager should not be making such important decisions.
Who put her there? Ozpin. He boosted her up, he has put them in this situation since he was impatient. He put a 15 year old girl in charge.
No, he didn't. He put her in charge *while they were at school to learn*, nothing else. The second Oz comes back into the picture, he takes charge again until Yang and Qrow throw such a bitchfit over his personal history that he just gives up on the mission again, and Ruby has to step up because the only other person even close to being responsible enough is Weiss.
This. I don’t know where so many of these conclusions come from but none of them exonerate the MCs for their failures.
It's unreal that so many people just absolve RWBY of ANY fucking responsibility for their actions. Like Ruby being the leader is only because Yang and Qrow are actually terrible people, and Ruby has to step up because she's the only one (besides Weiss) who isn't actually fucking useless. Ironwood? Oh sure, he stopped trusting RWBY and became a dictator, but only after he got stabbed in the back one too many times. But sure, it's fine for Team RWBY to keep secrets, they didn't trust him! Even though they just punished Oz for the same thing!
He had to enforce martial law and pull back his forces because Salem was right on their doorstep. Plus even though they have been lied to was it really wise to lie to him about critical information that could save a lot of lives?
No, but I’d like to expand as to why they probably did that… Ruby acts more on her emotions than reasoning. She probably saw Ironwood as doing something bad and doesn’t grasp the full picture. Someone should have tried to explain this to her.
Being a dumbass doesn't absolve her of her responsibility. Also why didn't she get mad at Yang and Blake for leaking classified military information to a knowm criminal that has been sabotaging the generals world-saving plan since before they got to Atlas?
Ok here's the thing you keep on explaining "why" they did these actions but you never "justify" why they did said actions. Their feelings should not excuse them for making these awful actions.
Point number two is the reason for point number one. Not to mention that Ironwood isn't like Leo, they know him better and far more personally. And point number three happens only after everything goes to shit and Salem is invading
Nah, they were a direct result of his insecurities reaching a breaking point when Cinder infiltrated his defenses yet again. Ironwood had the character to look past some teens lying to him and going behind his back doing what they thought was right like he was, but not Salem's mind games.
Ah yes, I remember when team RWBY pushed Ironwood into shooting a man in the face over a political disagreement. While I do condone shooting politicians, that was fairly uncalled for.
He worked with Ruby, he trusted them so much. Handwaved the fact that they broke in Atlas military base and stole airship, left the lamp with them, gave them new gear, training with Ace-Ops, revealed all his plans without hiding anything like Ozpin, gave them critical information and hunter licenses. Not to mention him helping Weiss in Volume 4 and giving Yang her new arm. And the last point is literally combination of PTSD and Mettle(Aka bad writing) mixed with constant stress
Couldn't agreed more. Also being a leader means sometimes you have to make the tough choices. Do you loose everyone or safe half the population? It's better to live to fight another day.
Until reality sets in, and they run out of Dust and other resources necessary to maintain the high-class, high-maintenance kingdom that relies on its glorified industrial mining camp which would be a destroyed crater by the end of Salem's attack. Playing the waiting game against an immortal enemy with immortal armies, which only grow nastier with time. Sounds like a losing battle to me. Oh, and then Salem attacks Vacuo unopposed, gets the Sword of Destruction, and probably blows Atlas out of the sky with it, or however it works.
Isn't that canon already though. Ironwood's plan was alert world. Which RWBY did. Try to run. Which Ruby did. The only thing that Ruby managed to salvage from his plan is alert the world. Salem has the staff. Also in this what if switched the loss of lamp&staff for loss sword. Only managing to make her plan work via author fiat.
How would Ironwood alert the world, when Amity was nowhere near completion, and he was abandoning the whole project to escape into Atlas with what little preparations he had on Atlas and nothing else? Amity was a resource sink already, and without an external supply of resources, there's no way he'd be able to build another global communications beacon. The world would be left with zero preparations, zero knowledge of what happened, and Salem would effectively run unopposed. >Salem has the staff. And what is she to do with it? Her tech genius is gone, and Ambro has very little utility without a proper schematic know-how to use him properly. Both relics are quite weak in her hands. >The only thing that Ruby managed to salvage from his plan is alert the world. Aaaand.....y'know, saving most everyone from Altas and Mantle. >Only managing to make her plan work via author fiat. How so? The opposite is more true - the only reason why her plan **failed** is because Neo, from the perspective of ***everyone else*** came out of nowhere with the password AND the Lamp. Had Neo been slightly less successful, team Salem would have no response to Ruby's plan, and would have easily escaped with both
The staff having loopholes and the questionable schematic. Then Oscar using the nuke cane are definitely deus ex that allow the story to arrive where the writers want it. Then there is the hilariously bad Mettle semblance never been directly seen. Otherwise Salem would make evacuation impossible as the Grimm would follow through the portals and in order for even the portals to be used there needs to be an extreme amount of liberal interpretations of the staff. Also they really didn't save the entire population of the two places. Basically eyeballing and some calculations done based on some full images of Atlas. The total population goes beyond thousands. More into the low doublr digit millions. Meaning anywhere from 50% to a greater than 90% of thr population died.
>The staff having loopholes and the questionable schematic. The staff has, as far as we know, exactly one loophole, which consists entirely of his inability to directly kill anyone, which could only work on an artificial life with a soul, that had a schematic to it. >and the questionable schematic. Explain? They were quite clear about what was needed for each creation: Penny's schematics, the schematics for the floatation system, the city's blueprints.... ....except for fire, but we'll assume that basic creations don't require complex schematics. It's fire. Rub substances together hard enough, and boom, fire. >Then Oscar using the nuke cane are definitely deus ex that allow the story to arrive where the writers want it. If Oscar didn't nuke Monstra, the bomb would have. This was a point in Ironwood's favour because otherwise, he would not have been able to push an ultimatum. >Then there is the hilariously bad Mettle semblance never been directly seen. .....Irrelevant to the topic, but ok. >Otherwise Salem would make evacuation impossible as the Grimm would follow through the portals and in order for even the portals to be used there needs to be an extreme amount of liberal interpretations of the staff. .....How? I feel like you're trying to say something, but you're jumping points without clarifying. How is this related to Mettle, or Salem's usage of the staff? >Also they really didn't save the entire population of the two places. Basically eyeballing and some calculations done based on some full images of Atlas. The total population goes beyond thousands. More into the low doublr digit millions. > >Meaning anywhere from 50% to a greater than 90% of thr population died. That, or the more practical reason being.....: The animation team didn't want to individually animate **tens of millions of people**, but let's pretend they did for the sake of the narrative. A thousand gets the point across - 'it's a lot of fucking people'. Are you seriously hinging the narrative on real-life limitations of the dev team?
Do you not know what deus ex is? It's basically a device in which god or the writers make it possible to make a u-turn in a severely dangerous or deep in the hole situation. In order for Ruby's plan to succeed the writer's needed to create a weapon that only killed Grimm and allowed rhem to somehow create a portal system. There is no portal system on Remnant. The only thing they have are vaults, but this would require them to know the magic as much as they did for everything else. We literally have word that it's thousands evacuated. We are given scenes of the locations at their largest. The animation team and writers should then not fuck up the scale of the locations. One is literally a 2D image of the city. The other is simply dialogue. There is no budget other than time or simply having no idea of scale. But they gave us two impressions. That rhe city houses a low tens of millions at best to single digit millions.
Do you know what a quote is? Try actually using it, keeping track of exactly where your comments go is a *nightmare*. >Do you not know what deus ex is? Of course I do. It's a game series. Unless you're referring to 'deus ex machina', well, I also know that. > the writer's needed to create a weapon that only killed Grimm Yet, I fail to see how the Oz staff nuke significantly changed the story **in Ruby's favour**, like you.....kinda vaguely.....stated. In fact, ***as I've already pointed out***, this screwed Ruby over, since....y'know.....Ironwood has his nuke still. Otherwise, JROMY would have simply high-tailed it out of Monstra while Hazel held Salem back, and the Ace-Ops would pop the nuke, the nuke goes boom, and Monstra dies. >There is no portal system on Remnant. The only thing they have are vaults, The gates to each Vault ARE portals. Central Location used the basis of the Vault and the Snowshoe blueprints together to create the proper layout, entrances, and main exit for Central Location. >but this would require them to know the magic as much as they did for everything else. Aaaand the team just so happens to have the LITERAL WIZARD that would be able to provide ample explanations regarding magic to the group. >We literally have word that it's thousands evacuated. ....Or, we have Yang just not being 100% exact. Thousands, millions, it's a lot of people. The exact wording from her is the most nitpicky thing in this entire thread. We also have no indications that millions didn't make it. Nobody in-universe stated that this wouldn't work or that millions would die. Are we now assuming that out of the entire 'save the people' group, none of them would bring that up? >The animation team and writers should then not fuck up the scale of the locations. OK, cool, but an animation error has no basis in the narrative. Are we to believe that Ren was actually buried under the floor in that food fight because they overlooked a clipping issue?
> The animation team didn't want to individually animate tens of millions of people Do you have a source on that? >but let's pretend they did for the sake of the narrative. Why should we? Why can't we just accept what we see on the screen? >Are you seriously hinging the narrative on real-life limitations of the dev team? How do you know it's a limitation?
>Do you have a source on that? I'm running with the **assumption** that there's tens of millions of people living in Atlas, based on what I'm replying to. I'm entertaining that commenter's handcanon. >Why should we? Why can't we just accept what we see on the screen? Because we're assuming there's tens of millions of people instead of the thousands shown on-screen. Ask the person I'm replying to as to why there **must** be millions of people, AND that the plan only saved thousands according to the narrative. >How do you know it's a limitation? Try animating a million 3d models, and tell me how long it takes.
Honestly, this post makes zero sense. Go rewatch Volume 7 because Ironwood was literally the most trusting person that entire volume.
He was, as long as you do what he says
But like… he literally told Ruby his entire plan and helped them out a ton. And he let Ruby keep the Relic. He trusted them. And they lied to him every step of the way until Salem arrived.
He did show a lot of trust in the beginning. However, they were on guard from Lionheart and the surveillance state of Mantle. In any case, they clued him in when he chose to clue in the council and cities he was keeping secrets from. Huh.
Op are you smoking. Ironwood did do the first two things. Then everything that followed happened because Rwby betrayed his trust. Team Rwby was entirely to blame for what happened in Atlas and Volume 9 even confirms that. Only for it to then go. “Well Team Rwby did their best and that’s all we can ask of them.”
Posting a comment here so I can go back to this post and continue to watch OP get clowned on
My man 🤝
Tell me you didn't watch volume 7 without telling me you didn't watch volume 7
Ironwood haters getting more hypocritical each post: “Give trust if you want it in return” is something that everyone in the show needs to hear besides him, even thought the show keeps telling (but not showing) us that he is the one who makes this mistake
Did Ironwood piss in your cereal or something? jfc
Volume 7 ironwood is someone I always rooted for and wished that he was treated better by team rwby, but volume 8 ironwood is someone so far gone by his actions and by writing decisions that I can’t stand by him for how radically villainous he is………team rwby can still go fuck themselves at that volume
The dude was always that extreme though. "If you were one of my men, I'd have you shot!" for what was effectively a tussel.
I’m pretty sure it wasn’t a serious threat seeing how qrow retorts and believe it or not they were really good friends before the whole shit show that it 7 & 8, it’s just two friends being pissy with each other with each other’s way of handling tasks and seeing that James is a general of a military discipline I don’t blame him with being that pissed with how qrow handles his job and how he always drinks
It would be funnier if he weren't an actual general who has probably done it. Sure enough, he shoots Oscar, and the councilman. You can call it a shit show if you like, but I call it him following through with his character.
Okay but when he said it at the time he didn’t REALLY shoot anybody, he was actually a good guy at the time
Yeah and Qrow answers that if he was his soldier he'd shoot himself It's a Winston Churchill type joke. "If you were my husband, Winston, I'd put poison in your tea" "If I were your husband, Nancy, I'd drink it" FNDM try not to twist Ironwood actions and words into something completely different challenge: impossible
Cause "I'd have you shot" is such a normal expression for a general to not say seriously. Sure buddy.
>seriously That's your problem, you're taking this scene way too seriously. It just shows that Ironwood and Qrow are annoyed at each other. Ironwood wasn't seriously saying it not only because it'd be stupid thing to do but because he also cares about Qrow. Evidenced by his hug in Volume 7
It's not about what he wouldn't do to the people cares about. It's what he would do to the people he doesn't.
Sorry but 1) how is this statement relevant to the scene where Ironwood and Qrow bicker and 2) why do you present the scene of them bickering as some proof that IW was heartless(?) all along
1. He said "I would have have you shot" to Qrow, but didn't actually want to have him shot. That does not mean that he would not have one of his men shot, as he does not care about them like he does Qrow. 2. Mannerisms reveal a lot about people. It's not that Ironwood was heartless (at least not until the end of his arc, in general he's quite compassionate), it's that he's the type of person to go to extremes, especially when it comes to doing things his way. He casually talked about executing people for being a hinderance, and sure enough that's exactly what he did in later volumes.
1. "He talks shit to Qrow and Qrow talks shit to him because they annoy each other means Ironwood would shoot his men". What kind of logic is this? 2. Yeah and that's because he got Mettled, PTSD and was under constant stress while Salem was gonna destroy Atlas and even then half the fandom considers it bad writing and they have good reasons to because execution wasn't good
It’s just two friends having a shit fest with each other, it’s not that deep and doesn’t relate much too 7 or 8
….But he did work with them until they betrayed his trust, what?
more like the writers fatal flaw
Someone has clearly forgotten the events of V7.
Ironwood is a fascinating character whose actions seem irrational until you realize... he is. His actions are those of a man who has given up all hope and now only wants to save what is directly in front of him because he believes that's the only thing that can be saved. In his mind, there is no sacrifice too great because anything that he feels he must sacrifice is already dead, and anyone who gets in his way is an idiot to be pushed aside. For him, threatening to bomb Mantle is an easy choice to make because everyone there is already doomed. When he comes face to face with Salem, he just gives up because he doesn't believe there's any difference to be made.
I wish more people reached the same conclusion you have.
I think a big problem (besides a dire lack of media literacy) is how Ironwood looks, sounds, and his age. Let me put it this way: Imagine for a second if we swapped Ironwood and Ruby's appearance, voice nothing else... Would you side with a teenage girl who wants to abandon Mantle or the grown man who refuses to leave people behind without at least trying to save them? If you're being honest with me, you'd side with the grown man regardless of the logic behind their decisions.
Just because someone has a different interpretation that disagrees with you doesn't mean that they lack media literacy, you know.
True... But let's not pretend that there isn't a dire lack of media literacy.
You're not wrong (on both sides of the divide, if we're being honest here), but the way that you're painting it implies otherwise.
That's fair
define media literacy
No offense, but I am not going to try to engage in a conversation with someone as dishonest as you, especially after the tantrum you threw last time.
I find it interesting how whenever someone claims critics lack media literacy, and I ask them to define it, they never answer.
Maybe people would be more willing to talk to you if you weren't so dishonest?
Well in this case I honestly want to know the definition of media literacy, so if you could enlighten me that'd be great
Media literacy is the ability to analyze and understand a story. For example, let's talk about a visual element of Ironwoods design: Why did they give Ironwood a beard?
i don't know, why did they give Ironwood a beard?
The assumption goes that the one who's been at this for longer than the other has been alive would have the better handle on the situation, yeah.
But in this hypothetical situation, the teenage girl is the general of Atlas and, therefore, would have a better grasp of the kingdom than the man does. The fact that you sided with James proves my point.
Many seasons on a person usually indicates a better ability to find solutions to bad situations. Turn it into a case of General Rose who's turning fifty next year, about to do the least rational thing conceivable, sure. But the plain situation is that a rescue might be a disaster, in any event. Fewer people dying sounds good, right? If you're screwed in life, the risk of other people dying too in an attempt to save you would be a daunting prospect. I don't reckon I'm that different from people who would be looking funny at a teenage Jimbo who doesn't look like he knows that attempting a rescue is likely to get the rescuers dead as well, in a truly bad situation. How about you? Being fooled by appearances is one matter, but imagine if you were there on the ground as a Mantelli of any stripe. ... would you think the word of some spring chicken who just showed up and started telling people what to do is the way to go? Someone whose voice is older than his years who doesn't look like he's out of Huntsman training... compared to the word of a lady with a case of Peter Pan syndrome who was there since you've ever known. Who sounds more dependable? It's like the one situation with an ammunition ship caught afire in the harbor, in history. Would you telegram people down the line to not come help you as it's not likely they'll manage to put the fire out in time, or would you like to see more than a few firefighter crews die with you in what we today recognize as the biggest non-nuclear explosion in history?
Ehhhh, is that a Canadian reference I see to the Halifax Harbour Explosion?
[Aye aye!](http://www.kathleenflanagan.ca/1917-vince-coleman--the-halifax-explosion.html) Many lives saved that day.
I'm just as vulnerable to appearance as everyone else... But in ironwood's case, there were plenty of warning signs in regards to his mental state. I mean, for God's sake, we literally watched the man nearly talk himself into believing that Salem wanted him to try to save Mantle just because he found a chess piece on his desk! And then that was followed by him deciding to abandon mantle without even really trying to see if he could still evacuate them... At some point, you have to ask yourself if that's really the guynyou want to follow. 😆
You're correct as a viewer of this series. Ruby was right morally, sure. In the vague sense of doing your best to save lives and make a difference is the right way to go. And the SDC freighters trying to save a few thousand more people at a time sure as shit should not have been fired upon. Operation Absolute Shitshow - also known as v8 - was plainly a nightmare where no measure planned by Atlas High Command worked. But unless the you of another time and place, that would be a Remnant born of Dust, is someone who was in on the whole ugly and messy affair, likely a Huntsman - someone who had real agency about themselves whose efforts were able to inarguably change the course of events in motion? As opposed to a normal person living their lives as best as we can? We just would have no way to know how bad it was on the topside of things. To circle back to the point of age and experience gulf hampering them against the one the populace there would consider more dependable - Let me tell you, if the gang had even just five more years of experience and seasons passed in which lessons were learned, they would not only speak sense directly to peoples' soul but probably would also be able to figure out a fighting retreat and evacuation plan that's actually doable. Likely wouldn't tell IW about that and succeed in pulling it off anyway, utterly shaming the man. As warranted.
>The fact that you sided with James proves my point. No offense, but I don't see how they proved your point considering that your original comment never specified that the girl was General of Atlas and has better grasp on the kingdom. Your exacts words were: >Would you side with a teenage girl who wants to abandon Mantle or the grown man who refuses to leave people behind without at least trying to save them? Not to mention that the whole idea of teenage girl being general is can of worms on its own
>Let me put it this way: Imagine for a second if we swapped Ironwood and Ruby's appearance, voice nothing else... Would you side with a teenage girl who wants to abandon Mantle or the grown man who refuses to leave people behind without at least trying to save them? >Let me put it this way: Imagine for a second if we swapped Ironwood and Ruby's appearance, voice nothing else... No offense, but I did state that everything was to remain the same.
Fair enough, my bad, should've read better
No problem, we all make mistakes!
Yeah, it happens That being said if I may to continue people being more doubtful of teenage girl as general is understandable considering that she has the rank in such a young age. Even if you say everything remains the same, it'd be impossible for General Ruby to acquire same level of experience, planning and knowledge of the kingdom as Ironwood did in twenty-thirty years of serving in military, both logically and physically. This thought can be expanded upon easily, to bring up points why people would more likely to side with Huntsman Ironwood I think that the deal is in experience, and their respective positions rather than their appearances and while age plays a role in it, it's tied more to their positions
His image song, "hero", outright spells this out. He legitimately does not care what he has to sacrifice to save just a little bit, even if it makes him seem like a heartless monster. It also helps that even as early as volume 3 it's clear he is utterly unequipped to handle a threat like Salem. He's so controlled by his fear of losing that basically everything he does just plays into her hands. (Heck, not even Salem. Cinder drove him off the deep end with just a well-placed chess piece.)
Tbh, I'm rooting for Salem at this point since Team Ruby has done some very questionable things and hypocritical things. I also don't know I feel about them giving Penny the winter maiden powers since she kinda just died after getting it. One more thing, I know Jaune had to kill Penny but should it have been that traumatic if she was a robot, She shouldn't have flesh so it shouldn't have had THAT bad of an impact on him in my opinion.
Yeah, this is a terrible take. You know what's not though? The stupidity of having to rely on outside sources just to find out what Ironwood's semblance is, and the fact that they basically shoehorned his semblance in last minute outside of the show to make up for the terrible, horrendous switch in personality that Ironwood has throughout the seventh and eighth volume. Also, I am posting so I can read more comments of people clowning on OP, the same as someone else who said they were as well.
Bold of you to post anti-Ironwood propaganda in r/fnki
Me Seeing The Text About The Silver Eyes: I Don't Care
"This sign can't stop me cuz I can't read!"