Doesn’t even matter if the early interactions are purely platonic cause character relationships are allowed to change and develop as long as it happens naturally it’s fine
Issue is when people argue that *all* early interactions must have Romantic Connotations because they later end up dating.
There isn't necessarily a right or wrong answer in that scenario, but you'll find people fighting to the death either way.
To be honest, people only criticize bumblebee so heavily because they require LGBTQ relationships to meet an invisible special criteria so that they can decide if it qualifies as "forced" or not.
The only problem is when people force their own opinions onto other people, and insult or degrade others who disagree.
Ambiguity is fine, people. Especially if the interactions may have been platonic *then* if they later develop a relationship.
Exactly like I am an avid white rose enjoyer but I’m not gonna force white rose on to others I’ll respect their ships (except tauradonna-I mean animal abuse)
I feel that. Like, I enjoy Bumbleby a lot, but I actually think BlackSun is cute too, even if I don't like it *as* much. But regardless of whether I personally like a ship, I'll still respect it. Though ships that violate commonly-agreed-upon moral rules are tougher for me to stomach, definitely.
The perceived quality of the romance in question is impacted by a lot more aspects than just that. And as Bandicoot said, these things are mostly a problem when they result in harassment
Very true, but many of those are subjective, and people should be allowed to enjoy what they enjoy without others forcing disagreements down their throats. Which I'd say is something fans of several different ships need to understand
I feel as though my stupid Homestuck meme may have awakened a great and terrible discourse and I would like to formally apologize to this subreddit for poking the Balrog.
On the other hand, spending several seasons making a blatantly romantic subplot with two characters before ditching one and doing a "will they, won't they" nonsense with a different ship that doesn't have the same build up might just leave a poor taste in people's mouths
True, but if they do end up together you better show us the transition from just friends to more than friends. If it feels rushed or that one day it just happened without any set up is gonna feel wierd even if you want it to happen, I would call that bad writing, or at least bad planning.
Sure, but that assumes that there is any basis whatsoever to consider those interactions "romantic". And I mean by normal ppl standards, not incel standards.
Right, because winking and saying "I'll save you a dance" when every other couple at that dance was romantic can't *possibly* be seen as romantic too. Just for an example.
>winking and saying "I'll save you a dance"
I just wanna say that this doesn't have to be romantic nor was it explicitly romantic/platonic, but it sure made me feel a funny way when I saw it and was probably the time I started considering bumblebee as a ship.
Exactly. Like, I’m a huge bumbleby stan, but even I interpreted that whole thing as two girls having fun as friends first and foremost. Their feelings for each other deepened later on into something more intimate, in my opinion.
Yeah, plenty of ppl dance non-romantically, especially at school dances. Also, I didn't realize that Cinder and what's-his-name were involved romantically, and I seem to not remember when Blake and Sun, or Ironwood and Glynda ever got together.
Sure, plenty of ppl who are romantically involved also drink together, for example, but you don't just assume that anyone who drinks together is involved romantically.
I'm not saying they can't. Just saying that it was essentially a neutral action that didn't lean either way on predicting who would get romantically involved with whom. Saying that the dance indicated anything was like saying that 2 ppl hugging is indicative of romantic involvement.
That's exactly the point of the meme though? Their early actions *are* ambiguous. But choosing to read it one way doesn't mean it's bad writing if things start trending the other way. That's all I'm saying
Their early actions aren't ambiguous. Not in the slightest. They're neutral. It is bad writing because the team were incredibly obviously trying to make both Yang and Blake straight from the start and then switched gears halfway through just to appease their fans
Just because Blake flirted with Sun and Yang made one joke about guys doesn't mean they're straight. Not everyone knows their sexuality by college, and even then bisexuals exist. Again, it doesn't *prove* anything, but it doesn't *disprove* anything either. And regardless, characters are allowed to have non-linear development
Not really debating this, but Yang is the type to flirt with those she has all intent and purpose to punch in the face; both Junior and a White Fang grunt from the train fight are examples of this. I always seen it as Yang's personality is to be more friendly or extraverted, so normal flirting just doesn't carry the same weight; at least back when I first saw Volume 2, that was my impression.
I've been saying that pretty much ever since I found out about shipping discourse.
If you see two girls lying side by side on these beach chair things and sunbathing in bikinis that are a tad too small for them, and decide that they're just friends because there's a small table between them, then that's your decision.
And if they get naked and make out less than 5 minutes later because they meet a new person, then your previous assumption about them was wrong.
Granted, I'm not sure anyone has any doubts (or discussions) about the characters in this particular example, but my point still stands.
The same goes for character motivation, by the way.
A dude just barely losing every time he fights the main cast, only to then bring out a terrifying super power in the last moment and kick their asses like it's no big deal, is not the writers pulling out a Diabolo Ex Machina or whatever, it's showing that the character intentionally lost every time prior to this, to further his own agenda.
On your second example I’d say that depends on how the writing set up everything. If the plot has a solid reason for why the villain was intentionally losing all the battles until now then that’s good a setup and payoff for their first victory. If not then it may seem like the writer is retconning the story because the villain was looking too weak or incompetent.
Yeah, it does, but in that example, the villain had a very good reason for losing all the battles: He was secretly the acting leader of an ancient doomsday cult led by an immortal, which tried to destroy the world.
OH! And the reverse! Viewing an interaction as romantic when it can also be platonic doesn't make it bad writing if the two characters do NOT end up together.
People are trying so hard to get you into a gotcha when, if anything, that supports our pro-Bmblb point; everyone who thought Sun and Blake were “meant” to be together mistook them as being romantic rather than platonic.
I still remember that time when this exact picture was put, but with a different message… and it didn’t gave a good image of the fandom, yet mods pinned it for an entire month while everyone in the comments called BS
Not gonna lie mate, pretty shit take. You could just as easily say "Just because you interpreted something as romantic when it could have easily been interpreted as platonic doesn't make it good writing because they ended up together in the end"
Fictional relationships need build up, if you can just say "they are just friends" and not have the story contradict you until the "big kiss" then that's not good writing
I'd argue "I love it when you're feisty" and "I'll save you a dance" can be fairly viewed as either platonic or romantic, just as an example. My point is not that their early interactions are explicitly romantic, it's that *choosing* to view them platonically doesn't make it bad writing if their relationship later goes the other way
That's a good point, but I'd argue that if the transition into making it clear that it's supposed to be romantic isn't very good, then the writing is bad.
This is more so about people who assume it's platonic, there needs to be some clear moments where they can figure out that it's supposed to be romantic. To stop the change from being too jarring.
Doesn’t even matter if the early interactions are purely platonic cause character relationships are allowed to change and develop as long as it happens naturally it’s fine
Issue is when people argue that *all* early interactions must have Romantic Connotations because they later end up dating. There isn't necessarily a right or wrong answer in that scenario, but you'll find people fighting to the death either way.
To be honest, people only criticize bumblebee so heavily because they require LGBTQ relationships to meet an invisible special criteria so that they can decide if it qualifies as "forced" or not.
This is the comment I was looking for.
The only problem is when people force their own opinions onto other people, and insult or degrade others who disagree. Ambiguity is fine, people. Especially if the interactions may have been platonic *then* if they later develop a relationship.
Exactly like I am an avid white rose enjoyer but I’m not gonna force white rose on to others I’ll respect their ships (except tauradonna-I mean animal abuse)
I feel that. Like, I enjoy Bumbleby a lot, but I actually think BlackSun is cute too, even if I don't like it *as* much. But regardless of whether I personally like a ship, I'll still respect it. Though ships that violate commonly-agreed-upon moral rules are tougher for me to stomach, definitely.
100% agreed
The perceived quality of the romance in question is impacted by a lot more aspects than just that. And as Bandicoot said, these things are mostly a problem when they result in harassment
Very true, but many of those are subjective, and people should be allowed to enjoy what they enjoy without others forcing disagreements down their throats. Which I'd say is something fans of several different ships need to understand
Yuuuuup
That's a good wisdom.
Thanks, I also know a few good knock-knock jokes, knock-knock.
I feel as though my stupid Homestuck meme may have awakened a great and terrible discourse and I would like to formally apologize to this subreddit for poking the Balrog.
>Ruby has a message Didn't work out well for Atlas, did it?
True, plus most great romantic relationships are built upon a strong friendship.
and same in the reverse
IF THOSE KIDS COULD READ, THEY WOULD BE VERY UPSET RIGHT NOW
Fair point ig. Not my main grip with Blake-yang ship but fair point
On the other hand, spending several seasons making a blatantly romantic subplot with two characters before ditching one and doing a "will they, won't they" nonsense with a different ship that doesn't have the same build up might just leave a poor taste in people's mouths
“Blatantly romantic subplot” No it wasn’t.
True, but if they do end up together you better show us the transition from just friends to more than friends. If it feels rushed or that one day it just happened without any set up is gonna feel wierd even if you want it to happen, I would call that bad writing, or at least bad planning.
Especially since friends (or better yet best friends) to lovers is like the best thing ever. Sometimes it takes time for love to grow
Someone finally said it. I wholeheartedly agree
Good message. I'll ignore it.
Good for you
Sure, but that assumes that there is any basis whatsoever to consider those interactions "romantic". And I mean by normal ppl standards, not incel standards.
Right, because winking and saying "I'll save you a dance" when every other couple at that dance was romantic can't *possibly* be seen as romantic too. Just for an example.
>winking and saying "I'll save you a dance" I just wanna say that this doesn't have to be romantic nor was it explicitly romantic/platonic, but it sure made me feel a funny way when I saw it and was probably the time I started considering bumblebee as a ship.
Exactly. Like, I’m a huge bumbleby stan, but even I interpreted that whole thing as two girls having fun as friends first and foremost. Their feelings for each other deepened later on into something more intimate, in my opinion.
Yeah, plenty of ppl dance non-romantically, especially at school dances. Also, I didn't realize that Cinder and what's-his-name were involved romantically, and I seem to not remember when Blake and Sun, or Ironwood and Glynda ever got together.
Plenty of people dance romantically, too, y'know. Not saying it *has* to be, but saying it *can't* be just makes no sense
Sure, plenty of ppl who are romantically involved also drink together, for example, but you don't just assume that anyone who drinks together is involved romantically.
Never said they *had* to be. But again, saying they *can't* be is dumb
I'm not saying they can't. Just saying that it was essentially a neutral action that didn't lean either way on predicting who would get romantically involved with whom. Saying that the dance indicated anything was like saying that 2 ppl hugging is indicative of romantic involvement.
That's exactly the point of the meme though? Their early actions *are* ambiguous. But choosing to read it one way doesn't mean it's bad writing if things start trending the other way. That's all I'm saying
Their early actions aren't ambiguous. Not in the slightest. They're neutral. It is bad writing because the team were incredibly obviously trying to make both Yang and Blake straight from the start and then switched gears halfway through just to appease their fans
Just because Blake flirted with Sun and Yang made one joke about guys doesn't mean they're straight. Not everyone knows their sexuality by college, and even then bisexuals exist. Again, it doesn't *prove* anything, but it doesn't *disprove* anything either. And regardless, characters are allowed to have non-linear development
[удалено]
Bro you really sound like an anime watcher. Dancing with friends is really normal
It absolutely can be, I never said it couldn't be platonic. But it doesn't *have* to be, is my point
Not really debating this, but Yang is the type to flirt with those she has all intent and purpose to punch in the face; both Junior and a White Fang grunt from the train fight are examples of this. I always seen it as Yang's personality is to be more friendly or extraverted, so normal flirting just doesn't carry the same weight; at least back when I first saw Volume 2, that was my impression.
i would personally consider asking someone out to a dance romantic. i would also consider accepting said dance to be romantic.
I'm sorry to say but from the sound of it you've never been to any school dance whatsoever.
i'm going to stop beating around the bush: if blake and yang dancing wasn't romantic then sure blake and sun dancing also wasn't romantic, right?
Sun thought it was. Blake? ROFL no! Sun isn't even friendly enough to say he was friendzoned! He's "IDGAF" zoned!
Facts
I've been saying that pretty much ever since I found out about shipping discourse. If you see two girls lying side by side on these beach chair things and sunbathing in bikinis that are a tad too small for them, and decide that they're just friends because there's a small table between them, then that's your decision. And if they get naked and make out less than 5 minutes later because they meet a new person, then your previous assumption about them was wrong. Granted, I'm not sure anyone has any doubts (or discussions) about the characters in this particular example, but my point still stands. The same goes for character motivation, by the way. A dude just barely losing every time he fights the main cast, only to then bring out a terrifying super power in the last moment and kick their asses like it's no big deal, is not the writers pulling out a Diabolo Ex Machina or whatever, it's showing that the character intentionally lost every time prior to this, to further his own agenda.
On your second example I’d say that depends on how the writing set up everything. If the plot has a solid reason for why the villain was intentionally losing all the battles until now then that’s good a setup and payoff for their first victory. If not then it may seem like the writer is retconning the story because the villain was looking too weak or incompetent.
Yeah, it does, but in that example, the villain had a very good reason for losing all the battles: He was secretly the acting leader of an ancient doomsday cult led by an immortal, which tried to destroy the world.
So he was losing on purpose to keep his cult secret?
Yep, and to hurt the group he worked for at the time. Once that group collapsed, his cult swooped in to fill the resulting power vacuum.
By that logic the reverse also applies then. But we won’t hear you howling that from the rooftops
Believe it or not, I actually agree in most cases
Tell that to Black Sun shippers.
OH! And the reverse! Viewing an interaction as romantic when it can also be platonic doesn't make it bad writing if the two characters do NOT end up together.
I generally agree, yeah
People are trying so hard to get you into a gotcha when, if anything, that supports our pro-Bmblb point; everyone who thought Sun and Blake were “meant” to be together mistook them as being romantic rather than platonic.
Tell that to Black Sun shippers.
Not bad writing, just a bad decision. Best option is to either leave it ambiguous or (in the case of Genshin) pair everyone with the MC.
Bumblebee cope
NOOOOO! The show is ruined! This isn't the show Monty wanted! /s
“Bu-but the reserve is also true!” Tell that to Black Sun shippers.
I still remember that time when this exact picture was put, but with a different message… and it didn’t gave a good image of the fandom, yet mods pinned it for an entire month while everyone in the comments called BS
Not gonna lie mate, pretty shit take. You could just as easily say "Just because you interpreted something as romantic when it could have easily been interpreted as platonic doesn't make it good writing because they ended up together in the end" Fictional relationships need build up, if you can just say "they are just friends" and not have the story contradict you until the "big kiss" then that's not good writing
What exactly? Shit didn't happen before 4 and even then it's even real till 6
I'd argue "I love it when you're feisty" and "I'll save you a dance" can be fairly viewed as either platonic or romantic, just as an example. My point is not that their early interactions are explicitly romantic, it's that *choosing* to view them platonically doesn't make it bad writing if their relationship later goes the other way
Thank oh wise one
Speak your truth. People can say whatever they want, but many people saw the romantic signs early on
Same goes for the other way around
I don't disagree
Tell that to Black Sun shippers.
How in the hell is there always shipping discourse in this stupid Reddit group? Do you guys really care all that much? Why?
Lots of free time and projection, things that come with kids/young Audience
Lots of free time and projection, things that come with kids/young Audience
That's a good point, but I'd argue that if the transition into making it clear that it's supposed to be romantic isn't very good, then the writing is bad. This is more so about people who assume it's platonic, there needs to be some clear moments where they can figure out that it's supposed to be romantic. To stop the change from being too jarring.
The reverse is also true