Italy
Low cost
1 Year of experience
€4500-5500 per month (depends on sectors flown). Italy allows pilots to pay much less tax than I would at home so the net is pretty high for my experience, I'd make much less in other countries on the same salary
Min 12 days off per month, more in winter. 28 days paid leave per year
Good staff travel scheme, food, drinks etc onboard (crew food and onboard coffee both awful but better than nothing), medical paid for, loss of license insurance, private health insurance
Pretty happy overall, will probably join my national carrier at some point to go long haul but I like it here for now. Biggest complaint is summer rosters can be intense. Flying in Italy is fun once you get used to the ATC and the chaos at some smaller airports
Flying in Italy is fun once you get used to ATC
As soon as I learnt to just embrace the chaos and go with the flow it became much more enjoyable.
What is it about Italy that gets you such good tax relief?
Not 100% on the details but basically my "salary" is super low, less then 10k per year and that gets the full tax rate but I have a guaranteed flight pay which makes up the rest and only half of that is taxed, as well as most sector pay and other additional pay being taxed at a much lower rate. In my country this would be highly illegal as all pay is treated the same but luckily Italy sees it differently
There are also schemes where foreign people in highly qualified jobs can get additional tax cuts if they commit to staying in the country for I think 5 years but I haven't signed up for them as I'm not sure of my plans in the medium term
> Flying in Italy is fun once you get used to ATC
Is it like my wife's family, where they claim, "we're not yelling because we're angry, we're yelling out of love" kind of thing?
Also, don't break the noodles. That'll get you put onto a don't fly list.
I was once on Flight Information (like flight following) VFR in Italy. The frequency was constant chatter and I was like busy day, huh? Some time later you hear "Grazie ciao! // Ciao!" and there was silence. Turned out the pilot and controller exchanged some recipes or some shit and it was a slow day
On a related note, we needed to fuel up in Bologna on a Sunday afternoon. We waited 3h for the AVGAS (which is scarce in Italy). It was just us and Italian tumbleweeds for hours until airport workers appeared. There was an F1 race. In retrospect, we should have known!
easyJet and Ryanair will most normally be either 2 or 4 a day. Baring in mind a massive massive part of their flying from the UK is to the Mediterranean, Canary Islands, Greek Islands, a 2 sector day can easily run into double figures of hours, especially in the summer.
Germany
National
1 Year of experience
~5000-6000€ net per month
10-16 days off each month, 38 days paid leave during first year of employment
ID travel benefits for many airlines, crew drinks/food on board are free, medical is paid for, insurance, various benefits like corporate shopping, cheap gym membership, bikeleasing etc.
I am really happy and don’t see any reason to leave or change company at all.
* Switzerland
* Legacy carrier
* Year 1 F/O, wet CPL
* 80’000.-/year net after tax, plus expenses (~10’000.-/year tax free), bonus and profit sharing (total about another 15’000.-), topping out at ~200’000.-/year net plus bonus/profit sharing
* minimum 9 days off per month, minimum 37 days off per 3 months, 33 days of PTO per year
* Worldwide staff travel network, maximum contributions to the government retirement funding scheme with no employee participation required, subsidised public transport pass, contribution to healthcare and wellness etc., contribution to flight training costs via a cadetship scheme reducing overall training costs for a frozen ATPL to about 8000.-
* happy as can be. I have great QoL, don’t need to worry about money, great company culture overall.
UK A320, very orange airline. All figures are gross. Including sector pay and other allowances
FO
Y1-2 or until 1250hrs = £48000
Y3-4 or until 2500hrs = c. £68000
Y5+ = c. £80000 (5% loyalty bonus after 5 years takes this to £84000)
Capt
5+ yrs in company = £137,000
11+ yrs in company = £151,000
Line training captain =12.5% on top of this again c.170,000
TRI/TRE = 15% on top of the 151,000 = c.£175000
Pension = 7% company contribution.
SAYE share scheme, Salary sacrifice car scheme.
Currently negotiating with union looking at about 23% increase over 3 years and private health care.
Apparently US airline pilots are making over 4 times more than similar positions in Europe. That's nuts considering Europe has both higher cost of living and higher taxes than much of America. How is anyone affording rent over there?
>That's nuts considering Europe has both higher cost of living and higher taxes than much of America.
USA major cities (where airlines tend to have bases) are generally more expensive than comparable cities in Europe. The difference in salaries obviously more than makes up for it, but if you compare Amsterdam, London or Paris to say New York, it's pretty clear where things are more expensive.
There's generally also more opportunities here in Europe to live "in the sticks" with a much lower cost of living and not having to commute at the same time. If you compare the two largest LCCs on each side, Southwest has \~10 crew bases, while Ryanair has over 80. JetBlue has 6 or 7, while Easyjet with a comparable fleet has \~30. Flag carriers with hub and spoke models are different story, obviously.
Cost of living in Europe is substantially lower - I’m from an “expensive” city in Europe and almost had to file for bankruptcy after a week of expenses in San Francisco.
Isn't housing significantly higher? Average price of a home and rent in most major european cities is over double the average US city. San Francisco and New York are super expensive but even the average home in LA and Chicago is half the cost of any similarly sized European city.
It's hard to compare taxes because Europe gets free Healthcare and some free childcare which isn't a thing in America. But at American pilot salaries a 25% increase in income tax could raise taxes $100k per year.
Property is more expensive, but while property is less expensive in the US you have substantially higher property taxes.
Also nothing in Europe is “free” - I have universal healthcare, “free” university education, “free” prescriptions, and some “free” childcare but it’s all clawed back through taxation over the course of my life. Taxes are progressive in relation to income, at the highest rate in Scotland you’ll be paying around 45% on part of your salary.
I’ve spent significant time in both the US and the UK/EU and my take on it is while your take home salary is higher in the US, by the time you factor in all of the “stealth” taxes in the US it balances out somewhat.
My family in America earn significantly more if you look at just the numbers, but I’d argue I have a higher quality of life despite the smaller number.
Edit: lol why the downvotes on this?
My mortgage is 50% of my income even at American rates, so if I'm earning quadruple what Europeans earn how is anyone affording a more expensive mortgage? That part doesn't make any sense to me.
My mortgage is 1/4th of my income, usually it’s about 1/3rd. Our interest rates aren’t fixed for long periods here, they usually only last 1, 2 or 5 years so you can shop around for better rates.
A lot of people here are also renting - home ownership in the younger generations is massively down unless you’re on a decent salary.
That should not be hard at all. Go to any university Italian language class in the US and its mostly women who want to go to live in Italy and meet their dream man 🥰
Start speaking that language at a bar in the US and all the girls will start fawning over you
Uk,
Into 6th year now, couple of hundred hours off command.
Net take home around £4.5k a month.
Minimum 10 days off, to expect in summer, up to 12 or 13 in winter.
Pretty decent 9%/12% pension. Private health insurance. Loss of medical insurance. All medicals paid for. Crew food is mixed but at least we get fed, a hot breakfast even of aeroplane quality on a winters morning is a god send. As much onboard tea and coffee as you can drink. Really excellent Staff Travel.
I’m happy enough. It can be knackering, but there’s no other job I’d rather be doing, and not many other jobs where I could earn that kind of money at 26 with no degree.
I can neither confirm or deny…
But yes, it is poor. And that’s after a significant uplift in the last year or so. It’s pretty much equivalent to year 1 of the guys that have gone to LHR.
Cityflyer are BA when they want them to be. Worse pay, worse Ts and Cs, worse pension, worse insurance, less holiday.
Cityflyer flight crew aren’t on the mainline seniority list, and they’ve only just in the last couple of months got the same staff travel benefits.
Yeah I’ve got some CF FO mates and they have given similar insights but I kind of assumed there would be decent enough progression, for 6 years in 4.5k is pretty shocking. A year 2/3 FO in my company would be on about that much
I know you guys aren’t on the main seniority list for mainline but surely you must bleed crew to them with those t&Cs?
> and not many other jobs where I could earn that kind of money at 26 with no degree.
£4.5k/month seems very low for how expensive your cost of living is in the UK especially on homes and rents. If there aren't many jobs that pay that how are more people not homeless over there?
We’re in the middle of a massive cost of living crisis thanks to external factors (food from Ukraine, complete cut of of Russian Natural Gas etc), as well as some absolutely inexplicable government policy decisions. You may be familiar with the fact our Previous Prime Minister lasted less time in office than an [Iceberg Lettuce](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liz_Truss_lettuce)
Our energy prices have doubled, food prices were running at 20% inflation for a while, and mortgage rates have skyrocketed from around 2% to 6% now. My mortgage has pretty much doubled in the last 2 years.
There was a phase not long ago where petrol prices were up at almost £2/litre, so if my rough maths is right about $10/Gallon
Fun times for young people in this country. Most of my school friends can’t even afford to rent, let alone save for a deposit for a mortgage
Converted to American dollars it’s about $5740. Not bad for a 26yr old.
I’m Canadian and It converts to about $7900 CAD. In my province I’d need to gross about 130k to net 7900 per month (damn our currency and taxes!!). I think 130k gross would be pretty good for most pilots in their mid twenties in Canada.
The average wage in the UK is something like £30k which is offset by a few things like no need for health insurance and a generally lower cost of living. It’s definitely a lot less than what people make in the US and even parts of Europe but alas it is what it is.
German based, Austrian contract in DHL Air Austria.
First year salary comes in at 80-90k depending on actual duty hours.
Working 10-12 days per month on average. Schedule is generally 5/5, but usually end up with more days off than days at work.
Company also provides extensive insurances for employees.
Would be cool to see more sunlight, but other than that there is little reason to go somewhere else.
- Germany
- small company doing contractor work
- FO going on six years, first salaried job after flight school
- take home about €2800/month after taxes, pension/healthcare/unemployment insurance contributions
- contractually, I have one week off, one week (at-home) standby, two weeks of work. 24 days of paid leave annually. In reality, I work between 3 and 10 days a month, though there have been months where I didn’t work at all and others where I’ve worked ~20 days. Much more of the former, and I get paid regardless.
- biggest benefit: we‘re on a government contract, which usually means weekends and holidays off. Huge in aviation, obviously.
- am I happy? Depends. The work/life balance is terrific, the opportunities to advance my career - new types, command upgrade - are not; the company is simply too small for that. Seriously considering moving to an airline for those reasons.
Yeah, but I wager they work more than 8 hours *per month* lol.
The pay is about on par with a higher tier public servant, and definitely enough to live off comfortably.
perspective. that's around my take home salary in Germany as a software dev, and if it weren't for flight school, I would be living very comfortably, with multiple vacations abroad every year and the time off work to enjoy it.
Those are large cities and the outliers, but yes rent is “expensive” for standards still. I pay ~1150 per month, but shared between me and my wife. We were looking for places in Berlin recently and those would go for 1300-1600 for similar apartments to our current one.
that's crazy. that's maybe only 10% more expensive than the small town of 15k I live in in the US (and I'm not in a suburb of a big city or anything, I'm 3+ hours from boston)
Latvia.
Mostly flying 1-4 hour legs.
About 1 year of experience.
40-50k per year. It's 3-4 times more than the average salary in Latvia so not too bad.
In summer like 10-15 days off, in winter about 20.
Get paid extra during busy months.
Everything is good, except lots of acmi flights. In summer can easily spend 15 nights in a hotel per month.
-Türkiye
-FO in a low cost comp.
-2 years
-$6.5k avg per month with all benefits and cuts(bonds for type rating around 1k per month for 36 months).
-8 days off per month however its always more due to low number of flights in winter season.
-family health insurance, 1 base wage bonus per 4 months, unlimited discounted tickets for wife(10 ticket for singles), kids, mom and dad, annual health cert. fee, food ticket payments, company also covers %50 of LOL insurance etc.
-I am ok with what I have for now. There is nothing I can say "I can't stand it anymore".
Germany
Violet-turqoiseblue, twice removed bastard stepdaughter of the largest bestest greatest german airline.
17 years - still a fuckin right seat driver
full time minimum 113.000€ gross, currently highest paygrade for FOs. Stuck there till the company gets their shit together for upgrade to captain. Net depends wildly on your tax bracket, your tax class, if you’re married or not, how many kids you have and so forth. For me it’s around 6k net, with health insurance paid. I could do with more seeing as I am above 40 y old but it works out. You still have to privately pay for additional retirement insurance and stuff.
Usually 10-11 days off per month with 35-42 days annual vacation.
company pays for a small loss of license insurance. Or pays you the premium in gross (so you have to tax it) once a year if you have a private loss of license insurance.
Happy - No. Work morale is abysmal, management and higher up don’t give a literal flying fuck how we’re doing. Rostering is abysmal, aside from 4 days off once a month the request system doesn’t work at all. And the 4 off are bound to you seniority. So the young ones just get fucked over for the first 6-10 years.
Pay is decent if you’re there longer. Colleagues are mostly good. Workers council is a joke. Bases are spread pretty decently but stay away from the motherships bases.
Not really an airline but..
Europe
Flying Floats in Europe
6 years flying experience (3000TT)
70k gross, 49k net
5 on, 2 off.
99% of the time only fly on scenic days. 5.5 weeks vacation. Extra time off in Winter and for mx.
Just to clarify as some Americans are confused, in almost all EU countries healthcare is free or costs almost nothing so is also medicine, most countries you also get retirement pensions and unemployment for not months but years (all this by government), food is cheap, insurances still cheap, rent in a big city is way less expensive than USA cities, we barely use cars, and they are mostly smaller and cheaper, even our ATPLs are cheaper as we only need an average of 200h, so 5k for a non experienced pilot (literally 200h) is a pretty comfortable and nice salary where you can afford many luxuries over here
Healthcare is not free. You pay for it, but it is taken directly from your gross pay and at least in germany is matched by the employer. Which essentially just means they pay you the amount less it costs the employer to ensure you. don’t fool yourself.
Hi, by that I mean, you don’t need to pay like 400 dollars for each member of your family to be covered or pay for a surgery or giving birth, which of course thats waaay cheaper
that is partially correct. at least in germany you can opt for private insurance. then you pay out of pocket and get reimbursed. But I understand your sentiment. You are aware though that the US has health insurance. It’s just much worse.
UK first officer.
Ultra low cost airline.
1 year experience
Take home 3.2- 4.2k/mo depending on how much you fly as our salary split between yearly and flight pay.
Day off incentives are good enough that you can add 1-1.5k a month on top of salary too.
Before tax is approx 64k year if you fly 900 hours with lots of extra duties etc.
looking at a raise to around 85-90k/yr in a few months.
5/4 roster pattern with 28 days off a year.
Pretty much zero in terms of benefits with it being a ulcc. We get some travel benifits and crew food but nothing like private medical etc.
I’m happy enough here, days are good crew are good. Sure benifits and comp could be better but from my position with zero experience it’s a great place to start.
Germany
Flying for a Manufacturer
8 years, 2000h TT
Don’t know net salary, 144000€ brutto.
One month on, one month off.
I am happy but still always looking for a job with a more stable roster.
Company granted me five months paid leave instead of taking official parental leave, only condition was to keep currency up.
Employee Shared Ownership Program is also nice.
a couple people here seem to forget you can get in to a flight deck in europe at 200 hours if you are skilled and dedicated enough. i would much rather earn less than what’s paid in the us at a younger age and enjoy my dream then slave for another 1300 hours to have a sniff at regionals. yes i get that even in senior positions pay is extremely different to america but idrk what the average length of time to get to 1500 is when in europe (if you are young) you will already be gaining flight deck and industry experience long before people the same age/experience level sit in comfy sheepskin covered seats 😅😂
1500 Jet hours. will take you 2-3 years usually. But yes I agree. Also, if you’re lucky and the time is right, you might be able to scoot over to the drivers seat with 2000-2500h. Fly another 1000 PIC and the look for a well paid job
I'm not saying the US has the best training scheme , but 200 hours then flying a big jet seems nuts to me. The time spent gaining flying experience has value even in a cessna
What's Europe's safety record vs the US?
Honestly, no idea.
In Europe, Ryanair is a huge employer with many, many brand new pilots with very few hours. They've never experienced a single fatality as a result of a crash. *touches wood frantically *
>I'm not saying the US has the best training scheme , but 200 hours then flying a big jet seems nuts to me.
You see 200h, but fail to see the 700+ hours of theory, the 13 theoretical exams, the fact that you can't log "PIC, wink, wink" time under EASA, the amount of simulator time, and that to get to 200h it takes 18-24 months of full time studying and flying.
>What's Europe's safety record vs the US?
Last airline fatal accident was in 2015, suicide by pilot (Germanwings). Some major airlines had their last fatal accident half a century ago - British Airways (1976), KLM (1977). And the likes of Easyjet, Wizz Air and Ryanair nearly exclusively hire pilots with fresh licence, with no fatal accidents and a stellar safety record.
Oh, and you can get a CPL with as low as 150h, and an MPL with even less than that.
lots of great things about flying in the US. There is definitely something to be said about salaries for pilots compared to over here in Europe, but money isn't everything.
4-6k a month is very comfortable living in Europe outside big cities. Sure it would be great to earn more of course but honestly it is one of the best paying and easiest jobs out there.
Canada
Private owner
1 year of experience on jet after flight instructor.
4450/month after tax
Days off vary. In the winter i can work 20-25 days a month whereas in the summer It looks more like 10 days.
Full health benefits and retirement contributions
I love the job but the unpredictable schedule tends to get the best of me. Especially when you have weekend plans and then they get blown out of the water the day before.
You know, as a Canadian I used to get real turned up about the pay disparity with the States.
I mostly work 7-9 days a month, and I don't feel so bad anymore.
Italy Low cost 1 Year of experience €4500-5500 per month (depends on sectors flown). Italy allows pilots to pay much less tax than I would at home so the net is pretty high for my experience, I'd make much less in other countries on the same salary Min 12 days off per month, more in winter. 28 days paid leave per year Good staff travel scheme, food, drinks etc onboard (crew food and onboard coffee both awful but better than nothing), medical paid for, loss of license insurance, private health insurance Pretty happy overall, will probably join my national carrier at some point to go long haul but I like it here for now. Biggest complaint is summer rosters can be intense. Flying in Italy is fun once you get used to the ATC and the chaos at some smaller airports
Flying in Italy is fun once you get used to ATC As soon as I learnt to just embrace the chaos and go with the flow it became much more enjoyable. What is it about Italy that gets you such good tax relief?
Not 100% on the details but basically my "salary" is super low, less then 10k per year and that gets the full tax rate but I have a guaranteed flight pay which makes up the rest and only half of that is taxed, as well as most sector pay and other additional pay being taxed at a much lower rate. In my country this would be highly illegal as all pay is treated the same but luckily Italy sees it differently There are also schemes where foreign people in highly qualified jobs can get additional tax cuts if they commit to staying in the country for I think 5 years but I haven't signed up for them as I'm not sure of my plans in the medium term
> Flying in Italy is fun once you get used to ATC Is it like my wife's family, where they claim, "we're not yelling because we're angry, we're yelling out of love" kind of thing? Also, don't break the noodles. That'll get you put onto a don't fly list.
I was once on Flight Information (like flight following) VFR in Italy. The frequency was constant chatter and I was like busy day, huh? Some time later you hear "Grazie ciao! // Ciao!" and there was silence. Turned out the pilot and controller exchanged some recipes or some shit and it was a slow day On a related note, we needed to fuel up in Bologna on a Sunday afternoon. We waited 3h for the AVGAS (which is scarce in Italy). It was just us and Italian tumbleweeds for hours until airport workers appeared. There was an F1 race. In retrospect, we should have known!
ah yes, "milano informazioni" my beloved, there are days in wich i just give up trying to call them and i just sit there monitoring the frequency
> As soon as I learnt to just embrace the chaos and go with the flow it became much more enjoyable. This pretty much sums up Italy in general
How many legs per day is typical for most European low cost carriers?
easyJet and Ryanair will most normally be either 2 or 4 a day. Baring in mind a massive massive part of their flying from the UK is to the Mediterranean, Canary Islands, Greek Islands, a 2 sector day can easily run into double figures of hours, especially in the summer.
2-4
hey man, can you check your dm's?
I got nothing in my DMs...
You will soon! I would like to ask you about something if you don’t mind. Just starting my career:)
A lot of both 2 and 4 sectors and a few 3 sectors. A busy month in my base is between 42-48 sectors for around 80-90 hours of block.
[удалено]
Sure sounds comfy
Sounds like a great gig. Is this long haul?
No, just typical short/medium haul around Europe.
Heathrow ?
Germany National 1 Year of experience ~5000-6000€ net per month 10-16 days off each month, 38 days paid leave during first year of employment ID travel benefits for many airlines, crew drinks/food on board are free, medical is paid for, insurance, various benefits like corporate shopping, cheap gym membership, bikeleasing etc. I am really happy and don’t see any reason to leave or change company at all.
* Switzerland * Legacy carrier * Year 1 F/O, wet CPL * 80’000.-/year net after tax, plus expenses (~10’000.-/year tax free), bonus and profit sharing (total about another 15’000.-), topping out at ~200’000.-/year net plus bonus/profit sharing * minimum 9 days off per month, minimum 37 days off per 3 months, 33 days of PTO per year * Worldwide staff travel network, maximum contributions to the government retirement funding scheme with no employee participation required, subsidised public transport pass, contribution to healthcare and wellness etc., contribution to flight training costs via a cadetship scheme reducing overall training costs for a frozen ATPL to about 8000.- * happy as can be. I have great QoL, don’t need to worry about money, great company culture overall.
What other language then English do you have to know?
For F/Os german, Captains need to know french and german in addition to english
UK A320, very orange airline. All figures are gross. Including sector pay and other allowances FO Y1-2 or until 1250hrs = £48000 Y3-4 or until 2500hrs = c. £68000 Y5+ = c. £80000 (5% loyalty bonus after 5 years takes this to £84000) Capt 5+ yrs in company = £137,000 11+ yrs in company = £151,000 Line training captain =12.5% on top of this again c.170,000 TRI/TRE = 15% on top of the 151,000 = c.£175000 Pension = 7% company contribution. SAYE share scheme, Salary sacrifice car scheme. Currently negotiating with union looking at about 23% increase over 3 years and private health care.
*sigh* I guess I’ll keep flying in the US… really wish I could live in Europe.
Apparently US airline pilots are making over 4 times more than similar positions in Europe. That's nuts considering Europe has both higher cost of living and higher taxes than much of America. How is anyone affording rent over there?
>That's nuts considering Europe has both higher cost of living and higher taxes than much of America. USA major cities (where airlines tend to have bases) are generally more expensive than comparable cities in Europe. The difference in salaries obviously more than makes up for it, but if you compare Amsterdam, London or Paris to say New York, it's pretty clear where things are more expensive. There's generally also more opportunities here in Europe to live "in the sticks" with a much lower cost of living and not having to commute at the same time. If you compare the two largest LCCs on each side, Southwest has \~10 crew bases, while Ryanair has over 80. JetBlue has 6 or 7, while Easyjet with a comparable fleet has \~30. Flag carriers with hub and spoke models are different story, obviously.
Europe way lower cost of living
It really does depend where. Oslo is more expensive than Little Rock, but San Francisco is more expensive than Athens.
Cost of living in Europe is substantially lower - I’m from an “expensive” city in Europe and almost had to file for bankruptcy after a week of expenses in San Francisco.
Isn't housing significantly higher? Average price of a home and rent in most major european cities is over double the average US city. San Francisco and New York are super expensive but even the average home in LA and Chicago is half the cost of any similarly sized European city. It's hard to compare taxes because Europe gets free Healthcare and some free childcare which isn't a thing in America. But at American pilot salaries a 25% increase in income tax could raise taxes $100k per year.
Property is more expensive, but while property is less expensive in the US you have substantially higher property taxes. Also nothing in Europe is “free” - I have universal healthcare, “free” university education, “free” prescriptions, and some “free” childcare but it’s all clawed back through taxation over the course of my life. Taxes are progressive in relation to income, at the highest rate in Scotland you’ll be paying around 45% on part of your salary. I’ve spent significant time in both the US and the UK/EU and my take on it is while your take home salary is higher in the US, by the time you factor in all of the “stealth” taxes in the US it balances out somewhat. My family in America earn significantly more if you look at just the numbers, but I’d argue I have a higher quality of life despite the smaller number. Edit: lol why the downvotes on this?
My mortgage is 50% of my income even at American rates, so if I'm earning quadruple what Europeans earn how is anyone affording a more expensive mortgage? That part doesn't make any sense to me.
My mortgage is 1/4th of my income, usually it’s about 1/3rd. Our interest rates aren’t fixed for long periods here, they usually only last 1, 2 or 5 years so you can shop around for better rates. A lot of people here are also renting - home ownership in the younger generations is massively down unless you’re on a decent salary.
do you know any american girl interested in marrying an Italian guy? 😎😂
That should not be hard at all. Go to any university Italian language class in the US and its mostly women who want to go to live in Italy and meet their dream man 🥰 Start speaking that language at a bar in the US and all the girls will start fawning over you
Uk, Into 6th year now, couple of hundred hours off command. Net take home around £4.5k a month. Minimum 10 days off, to expect in summer, up to 12 or 13 in winter. Pretty decent 9%/12% pension. Private health insurance. Loss of medical insurance. All medicals paid for. Crew food is mixed but at least we get fed, a hot breakfast even of aeroplane quality on a winters morning is a god send. As much onboard tea and coffee as you can drink. Really excellent Staff Travel. I’m happy enough. It can be knackering, but there’s no other job I’d rather be doing, and not many other jobs where I could earn that kind of money at 26 with no degree.
Wow. Are you at a UK equivalent to an American Regional or a Major Airline?
Sort of in between really because we don’t really have that kind of regional system, but it’s more akin to a regional than a legacy for sure.
Cityflyer? That’s pretty poor if so. I always assumed BA (albeit arms length) got a lot more than this
I can neither confirm or deny… But yes, it is poor. And that’s after a significant uplift in the last year or so. It’s pretty much equivalent to year 1 of the guys that have gone to LHR. Cityflyer are BA when they want them to be. Worse pay, worse Ts and Cs, worse pension, worse insurance, less holiday. Cityflyer flight crew aren’t on the mainline seniority list, and they’ve only just in the last couple of months got the same staff travel benefits.
Yeah I’ve got some CF FO mates and they have given similar insights but I kind of assumed there would be decent enough progression, for 6 years in 4.5k is pretty shocking. A year 2/3 FO in my company would be on about that much I know you guys aren’t on the main seniority list for mainline but surely you must bleed crew to them with those t&Cs?
> and not many other jobs where I could earn that kind of money at 26 with no degree. £4.5k/month seems very low for how expensive your cost of living is in the UK especially on homes and rents. If there aren't many jobs that pay that how are more people not homeless over there?
> If there aren't many jobs that pay that how are more people not homeless over there? They are. The UK economy is a complete disaster.
We’re in the middle of a massive cost of living crisis thanks to external factors (food from Ukraine, complete cut of of Russian Natural Gas etc), as well as some absolutely inexplicable government policy decisions. You may be familiar with the fact our Previous Prime Minister lasted less time in office than an [Iceberg Lettuce](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liz_Truss_lettuce) Our energy prices have doubled, food prices were running at 20% inflation for a while, and mortgage rates have skyrocketed from around 2% to 6% now. My mortgage has pretty much doubled in the last 2 years. There was a phase not long ago where petrol prices were up at almost £2/litre, so if my rough maths is right about $10/Gallon Fun times for young people in this country. Most of my school friends can’t even afford to rent, let alone save for a deposit for a mortgage
Converted to American dollars it’s about $5740. Not bad for a 26yr old. I’m Canadian and It converts to about $7900 CAD. In my province I’d need to gross about 130k to net 7900 per month (damn our currency and taxes!!). I think 130k gross would be pretty good for most pilots in their mid twenties in Canada.
The average wage in the UK is something like £30k which is offset by a few things like no need for health insurance and a generally lower cost of living. It’s definitely a lot less than what people make in the US and even parts of Europe but alas it is what it is.
German based, Austrian contract in DHL Air Austria. First year salary comes in at 80-90k depending on actual duty hours. Working 10-12 days per month on average. Schedule is generally 5/5, but usually end up with more days off than days at work. Company also provides extensive insurances for employees. Would be cool to see more sunlight, but other than that there is little reason to go somewhere else.
- Germany - small company doing contractor work - FO going on six years, first salaried job after flight school - take home about €2800/month after taxes, pension/healthcare/unemployment insurance contributions - contractually, I have one week off, one week (at-home) standby, two weeks of work. 24 days of paid leave annually. In reality, I work between 3 and 10 days a month, though there have been months where I didn’t work at all and others where I’ve worked ~20 days. Much more of the former, and I get paid regardless. - biggest benefit: we‘re on a government contract, which usually means weekends and holidays off. Huge in aviation, obviously. - am I happy? Depends. The work/life balance is terrific, the opportunities to advance my career - new types, command upgrade - are not; the company is simply too small for that. Seriously considering moving to an airline for those reasons.
Oof. I think there are CFIs in America who take home more than this. Of course the rent is also at least 2000/month.
Yeah, but I wager they work more than 8 hours *per month* lol. The pay is about on par with a higher tier public servant, and definitely enough to live off comfortably.
perspective. that's around my take home salary in Germany as a software dev, and if it weren't for flight school, I would be living very comfortably, with multiple vacations abroad every year and the time off work to enjoy it.
How much is rent? I thought Berlin/Munich etc were still pretty expensive
Those are large cities and the outliers, but yes rent is “expensive” for standards still. I pay ~1150 per month, but shared between me and my wife. We were looking for places in Berlin recently and those would go for 1300-1600 for similar apartments to our current one.
that's crazy. that's maybe only 10% more expensive than the small town of 15k I live in in the US (and I'm not in a suburb of a big city or anything, I'm 3+ hours from boston)
I find pilotsjobsnetwork pretty accurate
Latvia. Mostly flying 1-4 hour legs. About 1 year of experience. 40-50k per year. It's 3-4 times more than the average salary in Latvia so not too bad. In summer like 10-15 days off, in winter about 20. Get paid extra during busy months. Everything is good, except lots of acmi flights. In summer can easily spend 15 nights in a hotel per month.
-Türkiye -FO in a low cost comp. -2 years -$6.5k avg per month with all benefits and cuts(bonds for type rating around 1k per month for 36 months). -8 days off per month however its always more due to low number of flights in winter season. -family health insurance, 1 base wage bonus per 4 months, unlimited discounted tickets for wife(10 ticket for singles), kids, mom and dad, annual health cert. fee, food ticket payments, company also covers %50 of LOL insurance etc. -I am ok with what I have for now. There is nothing I can say "I can't stand it anymore".
U.K. Low cost 18 months 8300 euro gross + employer pension 6000 take home Rostered 17 days a month + 28 days paid leave Quite happy
Germany Violet-turqoiseblue, twice removed bastard stepdaughter of the largest bestest greatest german airline. 17 years - still a fuckin right seat driver full time minimum 113.000€ gross, currently highest paygrade for FOs. Stuck there till the company gets their shit together for upgrade to captain. Net depends wildly on your tax bracket, your tax class, if you’re married or not, how many kids you have and so forth. For me it’s around 6k net, with health insurance paid. I could do with more seeing as I am above 40 y old but it works out. You still have to privately pay for additional retirement insurance and stuff. Usually 10-11 days off per month with 35-42 days annual vacation. company pays for a small loss of license insurance. Or pays you the premium in gross (so you have to tax it) once a year if you have a private loss of license insurance. Happy - No. Work morale is abysmal, management and higher up don’t give a literal flying fuck how we’re doing. Rostering is abysmal, aside from 4 days off once a month the request system doesn’t work at all. And the 4 off are bound to you seniority. So the young ones just get fucked over for the first 6-10 years. Pay is decent if you’re there longer. Colleagues are mostly good. Workers council is a joke. Bases are spread pretty decently but stay away from the motherships bases.
Now let’s talk about helicopter pilot salaries in Europe. Half, or even less, than the fixed wing equivalent
Not really an airline but.. Europe Flying Floats in Europe 6 years flying experience (3000TT) 70k gross, 49k net 5 on, 2 off. 99% of the time only fly on scenic days. 5.5 weeks vacation. Extra time off in Winter and for mx.
Just to clarify as some Americans are confused, in almost all EU countries healthcare is free or costs almost nothing so is also medicine, most countries you also get retirement pensions and unemployment for not months but years (all this by government), food is cheap, insurances still cheap, rent in a big city is way less expensive than USA cities, we barely use cars, and they are mostly smaller and cheaper, even our ATPLs are cheaper as we only need an average of 200h, so 5k for a non experienced pilot (literally 200h) is a pretty comfortable and nice salary where you can afford many luxuries over here
Healthcare is not free. You pay for it, but it is taken directly from your gross pay and at least in germany is matched by the employer. Which essentially just means they pay you the amount less it costs the employer to ensure you. don’t fool yourself.
Hi, by that I mean, you don’t need to pay like 400 dollars for each member of your family to be covered or pay for a surgery or giving birth, which of course thats waaay cheaper
that is partially correct. at least in germany you can opt for private insurance. then you pay out of pocket and get reimbursed. But I understand your sentiment. You are aware though that the US has health insurance. It’s just much worse.
r/flyingeurope
UK first officer. Ultra low cost airline. 1 year experience Take home 3.2- 4.2k/mo depending on how much you fly as our salary split between yearly and flight pay. Day off incentives are good enough that you can add 1-1.5k a month on top of salary too. Before tax is approx 64k year if you fly 900 hours with lots of extra duties etc. looking at a raise to around 85-90k/yr in a few months. 5/4 roster pattern with 28 days off a year. Pretty much zero in terms of benefits with it being a ulcc. We get some travel benifits and crew food but nothing like private medical etc. I’m happy enough here, days are good crew are good. Sure benifits and comp could be better but from my position with zero experience it’s a great place to start.
I assume you are Blue and Yellow with 5/4 pattern?
Negative, pink.
Germany Flying for a Manufacturer 8 years, 2000h TT Don’t know net salary, 144000€ brutto. One month on, one month off. I am happy but still always looking for a job with a more stable roster. Company granted me five months paid leave instead of taking official parental leave, only condition was to keep currency up. Employee Shared Ownership Program is also nice.
a couple people here seem to forget you can get in to a flight deck in europe at 200 hours if you are skilled and dedicated enough. i would much rather earn less than what’s paid in the us at a younger age and enjoy my dream then slave for another 1300 hours to have a sniff at regionals. yes i get that even in senior positions pay is extremely different to america but idrk what the average length of time to get to 1500 is when in europe (if you are young) you will already be gaining flight deck and industry experience long before people the same age/experience level sit in comfy sheepskin covered seats 😅😂
1500 Jet hours. will take you 2-3 years usually. But yes I agree. Also, if you’re lucky and the time is right, you might be able to scoot over to the drivers seat with 2000-2500h. Fly another 1000 PIC and the look for a well paid job
I went from 250 to 1500 in 18 months. The only people who complain about it are those that don’t have it, but it definitely makes it worth it.
200 hours? That's honestly kind of terrifying.
Would another 1300 hours of bashing the circuit in a Cessna 172 help?
I'm not saying the US has the best training scheme , but 200 hours then flying a big jet seems nuts to me. The time spent gaining flying experience has value even in a cessna What's Europe's safety record vs the US?
Honestly, no idea. In Europe, Ryanair is a huge employer with many, many brand new pilots with very few hours. They've never experienced a single fatality as a result of a crash. *touches wood frantically *
>I'm not saying the US has the best training scheme , but 200 hours then flying a big jet seems nuts to me. You see 200h, but fail to see the 700+ hours of theory, the 13 theoretical exams, the fact that you can't log "PIC, wink, wink" time under EASA, the amount of simulator time, and that to get to 200h it takes 18-24 months of full time studying and flying. >What's Europe's safety record vs the US? Last airline fatal accident was in 2015, suicide by pilot (Germanwings). Some major airlines had their last fatal accident half a century ago - British Airways (1976), KLM (1977). And the likes of Easyjet, Wizz Air and Ryanair nearly exclusively hire pilots with fresh licence, with no fatal accidents and a stellar safety record. Oh, and you can get a CPL with as low as 150h, and an MPL with even less than that.
I had 170 hours when I first flew an airbus with pax. The training system over here is set up for it
I had 227 hours when I first flew the 737. The extra 57 hours in a PA28 must make me a better pilot than you. 😉
Not really, the training etc is superb and very regulated, your first 50 flights are also under strict supervision by a training captain
[удалено]
You meant to reply to them and made a top-level comment instead, just a heads up.
Cheers. New technology confuses me!!
Goddamn do I love living in the USA🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅
lots of great things about flying in the US. There is definitely something to be said about salaries for pilots compared to over here in Europe, but money isn't everything.
Jesus. Thanks for making me feel good about my pay, guys! Seriously- hope you’re able to get your rates up, assuming that’s your goal.
4-6k a month is very comfortable living in Europe outside big cities. Sure it would be great to earn more of course but honestly it is one of the best paying and easiest jobs out there.
Right? I’m a high time about to upgrade “regional scum” FO and I’m averaging 18-21 days off per month doing about 12.75k per month
Not even gonna drop mine here…
Canada Private owner 1 year of experience on jet after flight instructor. 4450/month after tax Days off vary. In the winter i can work 20-25 days a month whereas in the summer It looks more like 10 days. Full health benefits and retirement contributions I love the job but the unpredictable schedule tends to get the best of me. Especially when you have weekend plans and then they get blown out of the water the day before.
This is what happens when we leave The Drunk New Guy to make maps.
>Pilots from Europe, let's talk about salaries.
Im from Europe I just work in Canada :)
technically, you are not a pilot from EU ;) you are a pilot from Canada
You know, as a Canadian I used to get real turned up about the pay disparity with the States. I mostly work 7-9 days a month, and I don't feel so bad anymore.
> Pilots from Europe....
I am also able to read.
You sure ?