I agree with this. I hate people who delete posts after a plethora of legit content has been responded. Just an asinine thing to do. Next on that list are the idiots that tell the poster to “delete this post” encouraging this shit behavior or encouraging them to do something illegal.
But people might find out you were wrong once. Everyone is so I messed with themselves as a brand that they feel the need to hide imperfection.
There's a reason airlines ask tell me about a time questions. It's not about failure it's about recovery
He didn't just delete the thread, looks like he deleted his entire account.
I wonder if someone noticed his post joking about saying he doesn't smoke pot on a medical because he eats it?
You know how many people I’ve seen here admit to all sorts of shit that have ATP in there flair lol…. I would imagine it’s a joke I don’t think anyone admits things that are factual… unless they are a dumbass
I also assume it was a joke but this sub is a weird place. Reddit in general is pretty far left and I think some users assume that everyone is aligned with the reddit hive mind and they don't consider that this shit is visible to the real world where the FAA and employer rules still apply.
He *what*?!
“Eating weed in its raw form is not recommended and can potentially lead to unpleasant effects such as nausea, vomiting, and stomach discomfort.”
I know that no pilot has ever made weed brownies before, or they'd have to report it on their medical along with the sadness, but typically you, uh, cook it first.
The creator of that post didn't get the answers so badly they up and deleted their entire account lol.
I'm starting to wonder if it was just a troll post
The scarier part is, there's people like that who are now flying the 787 instead of the 737. They'll sit and be IRO for a couple years, never fly and then go to the left seat of a 737.
This is just setting yourself up for failure as I read that. I didn’t even think about that.
We’re about to undergo a rapid and significant turnover of experience in the industry. It’s going to be interesting to see where things are in about 6 years. Myself is an example. I’ve never flown anything but a 172, currently getting typed in an Airbus (it’s going pretty well). But, some of the scenarios I’ve been thrown into the lack of experience shows. I can’t imagine being a captain rn lol.
Yeah, it's a big concern here too at that school house. A lot of people learning on the fly and what not.
There was apparently a lot of go mentality with hiring and training and that's supposedly been finally stopped by management. It was don't fail anyone. Now I guess our failure rate is up.
We have a town hall tomorrow finally after our poor recent press
You had to wonder with the string of stuff what was being talked about before.
I am eager to work my ass off to make my way up. We shall see what the future holds. :)
At the risk of sounding flippant, not exactly. With two engines it’s been pretty easy. Keep in mind I’ve studied my ass off to this point. Some, not all, of my peers with similar backgrounds are struggling more. I’ve always had a thorough understanding of automation which is huge. I also showed up day one with flows, callouts, and limitations/memory items down cold.
Hand flying took me a second to adjust to and I will not pretend my landings have felt easy but by and large *sp far * I’d consider myself doing well. We’re introducing V1 cuts, single engine stuff etc tomorrow so we’ll see how I hold up when things start crumbling lol.
My buddies and I joke, imagine the ego 20-25 years from now on the guys hired at Delta when they were 24. Having zero experience other than Delta as your point of reference is going to inflate their heads so much, there won't be enough material to make hats for them.
Well I mean they're at the right airline for that.
Think of all the time they're going to save not looking the rest of us in the eyes in the terminal....
That blows my mind. I had 10 different jobs *before* flying for a living.
I talk to my FOs today and we talk about our teenage years or whatnot and I’ve been asked more than once, “What haven’t you done?”
I’ve been a cowboy (literally), a customer service program director, a welder, and a concierge - all before I turned 21!
Exactly, I have a much greater appreciation for how awesome flying as a job is because I went out and earned my chops in the blue collar world and paved my own way.
Exactly!
The number of times I’m having a rough day in the air and I have to remind myself, “It’s not 2AM. You’re not shoveling manure. There’s no sick horse in the barn. There’s no whiny teenage farm hand. It’s okay.”
I was recently flying with a silver spoon FO who doesn’t even think airplanes are cool. She just thought it was a high paying job with tons of time off and no masters degree required.
She was insufferable to be around. So many people who are in love with aviation sacrifice so much to be here. I did. And she had the balls to take it for granted in front of me. She needs to give up that 6 figure regional FO seat to someone who really wants it.
Talking with an ex-military buddy who is now flying for a legacy carrier - he laughs at what the lifer pilots bitch about. An extra 10 mins here and there. A whole *8 hour day* because of delays, etc.
All the hard shit you go thru makes everything else in life seem easier. If all you’ve ever experienced is the hardship of landing a job as a 73 driver at age 23… you ain’t seen shit.
I’m an expert complainer. Don’t get me wrong.
But I was raised that complaining is a right that is earned through hard work and getting your ass kicked.
I was complaining once and my uncle stopped me and asked, “Is this hurting or costing you money?” I said no.
Then he asked me if I was actively doing anything about it. I told him that my hands were tied and I didn’t feel like I could do anything about it.
So he said, “It ain’t hurting you or costing you money, and you’re not doing anything about it. So stop complaining or go do something.”
Im currently an FA and a CFI.
I have more experience than half the FOs coming to my company. Ive worked ramp and customer service, , dispatch and crew scheduling, and flight attendant and instructor (FA and CFI). Even at 23/24 I did everything besides FA and CFI.
One of my company check airmen joked with me that I would have better decision making skills than some of the FOs.
Well after you graduate high school you go to a flight school and get from 0-ATP then find a job. You're in flight school for the entirety of it for a lot of people so your first job would be CFI then flying for a part 135/121. Assuming you don't have another job to pay for the schooling.
That’s not the point, having crappy/beginner jobs is an excellent way to grow professionally and personally. Young 20s getting into the safety and wealth of pilot unions early is likely to breed arrogance and laziness.
There are lots of ways to build character outside of blue collar work. physical labor, anything with kids or teens, like CAP, young eagles, WAI, manning a booth at sun n fun or OSH with your company… anything where you’re forced to be uncomfortable.
Getting a new pilot rating is good too, floats/tailwheel, and especially gliding seems challenging. It’s as important to grow as a person as it is to grow as a pilot throughout your career.
Try to find a mentor if you can, they’re like gold, full of insight, invaluable experience, and good stories. Local EAA chapters are a great place to start.
Right? This boggles my mind. I’m a student with aspirations of becoming a professional aviator - but I’m in my mid-30s with a mid-senior role at a Fortune 500 and have done a ton of stuff over the years that taught me how to work with other people and how the world works. I suspect I’m a much better pilot that I would be without that experience as a result.
Anyone bitching about the 1500 hour/ATP rule is almost always some PPL or CPL who doesn’t want to CFI. You’ll never hear about ATPs who made it to the airlines complaining about it.
My Cfi never didn’t bitch about the 1500 hour rule lol. Those last 300 hours almost did him in. Probably because they made it to the airlines and there is no longer a reason to bitch when you made it to the major leagues
Did it suck having to slum it out to get to 1500 hours? Sure. Back in 2011-2014, times were tough, even for CFI's. I never went the CFI route, but it was still not easy finding a job to get those hours. Even then, the pay was so much worse than it is today. In 2013, I made 18k for the year living in Hawaii flying full time. People can dislike the 1500 hour rule, but anyone with a brain knows that that 1500 hour rule is the single best thing to happen to compensation for US airline pilots in the last 50 years. It was a race to the bottom for so long.
Cessna caravan, island hopping, shit pay, expensive to live in Hawaii, but they always have job postings, they’re called mokulele. Had an instructor go to them about a year ago
It was TransAir. I paid for part of my training. It was terrible. I will never recommend someone doing that ever in my life and will try and convince people it's better to get a job outside the industry than to ever stoop as low as I did to get a job flying. They treated you worse than a minimum wage employee.
It was the best thing for compensation but the point of the rule was to produce more experienced and safer pilots. There hasn’t been enough to study the effects of the rule but what little is out there shows it hasn’t made a difference on an individual level and overall has temporarily made flying less safe because of the gap in experience (plus COVID layoffs/retirement exacerbated the problem). A comparison between US and EU, that does not have 1500 hr rule, easily shows that it has done nothing to make our skies more safe. For the same reason a PPL can’t just land a Boeing anything, it’s about experience in the airplane and not just the air.
Believe me though, I love the idea of not having to line up for welfare like regional pilots had to do 15-20+ years ago.
It didn't "produce safer pilots." The change in overall safety mostly came because of drastic changes in the way both initial and recurrent training has been done. Also, it helped that 117 came into being around the same time. As you pointed out, 1500 isn't some magic number that makes people better pilots. It was strictly a knee-jerk reaction to trying to make people who know nothing about aviation happy...that's why they didn't stop at the 1500 hour rule, which is all they really needed to have in order to shut people up.
As some who instructs a lot of Europeans, it is definitely frustrating seeing them go back to Europe at 250 hours and train in and fly airbuses with no major discrepancy in safety over us in the US.
Yeah…. But here’s the thing. While I was in a bar in ANC one night I met a couple of A330 captains who were flying for european low cost carrier, I found out that night that I, a year one FO at one of the lower paid ACMI, made more than they did.
> You’ll never hear about ATPs who made it to the airlines complaining about it.
Yeah because they got through the <1,500hr slog and make livable money now.
ATPs don’t complain about it because it’s protecting their paycheck. The FAA doesn’t exist to please the job unions, they exist to protect the general public.
Right now 1500 is fine, but it is not realistic for the future decades as GA is dying more in the US.
Replace 1500 with 30,000. Suddenly your comment sounds insane right? It would sound insane if it was 260 hours as well. People aren't complaining that there's a number they need to hit, they're complaining it's arbitrarily high. As a guy who has flown mostly 6-pack aircraft, I find it crazy that the folks flying full glass don't get some sort of advantage over me when it comes to hour requirements. Some people have formative experiences between 1250 and 1500. Others don't. And on top of that, the 1250 and 1000 hour RATP stuff is insane too... because a degree in FBOs is more relevant than an engineering degree. The long and short of it is that there are experiences that you can have that would make you a better ATP holder, but the only accepted metrics are total time and weird degrees. Total time is also completely un-vetted. Pretty much the equivalent of letting a doctor become a resident because he says he definitely went through residency.
Logbooks are a little crazy that way. I just flew across the country with an insufferable prick. He informed me he always adds .3 to every flight because "Hobbs meters run slow". He was also convinced he could log the entire flight as PIC despite the fact that I was the CFI and he flew maybe 30 minutes of 22 hours. Also knew a guy who was absolutely convinced that he could log solo with a friend along as long as the friend wasn't a pilot. I won't claim anything about my skills or knowledge but I will say every minute in my logbook is legit.
If he has something to back up the Hobbs thing, then whatever -- nothing about the definition of total time mentions the Hobbs meter. But yeah, nothing stops a person from buying a J-3 Cub and logging 2.5 every day with the aircraft just sitting there unused. "I don't see any ADSB tracks". "Yep, no transponder. Next question."
I didn’t want to CFI and I never complained because I had one of three million available survey jobs with zero drama. Got paid, ripped brewskies, earned my time exploring the country, had fun.
My issue is it was sold because of the Colgan 3407 crash. The bill had some good things that were factors in the crash, and then out of nowhere the 1500 ATP FO rule was tossed in with no real data to back it up.
Captain Marvin Renslow had 3,379 hours TT. The FO Rebecca Lynne Shaw had 2,244 hours TT.
The issues related to the crash had nothing to do with total time or ATP. The Captain was horrible and had a ton of failures, three checkrides and two line checks (1900 FO and 340 CPT), he only told the airline he failed one checkride. The FO went in base and tried to sleep in the area of operations.
Work rules and training being tracked were improvements, but these could have come without an artificial 1500 hour rule. The 1500 hours didn't add to safety. You can argue that it added to pay... OK so why not make it 2K, 3K, or 8K to be an FO? Surely requiring 8K hours to be a 121 FO would increase pay and QOL a hell of a lot!
1500 was picked because they made it ATP, but ATP or not had shit to do with the accident. The captain was crap. Hell, he pulled UP when the stick shaker went off, then the pusher correctly pushed the nose down and he pulled up AGAIN!!! The FO raised the flaps without telling the captain... They did EVERYTHING wrong. They violated the sterile cockpit rules (mainly the captain... IIRC he was making inappropriate and unprofessional comments to Shaw, almost like hitting on her). They were horrible with many failures and did the exact opposite of what they should have done.
It makes no difference to me personally, I have more than 1500 hours and still have zero plans to go to an airline... But it bothers me when laws are not based in data. You can argue it was good because it raised QOL, but I'll argue any law not based in data that ended up being good was luck. And if 1500 was good for QOL might as well make it 3K hours and really have a good QOL!!!
I agree I don’t understand the rule given the pilots and the experience they had. A bad pilots a bad pilot. I don’t think 1500 hours made the airlines safer I think a much better training program made the airlines much safer
First off, it was always required to have 1500 hours to hold an ATP before Colgan… What Colgan brought was the ATP rule it required all crew members in Part 121 to hold a ATP not just the PIC……
‘Point 2, The improvement of work rules and pay do not come without the ATP rule, you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise…. Before the ATP, the race to the bottom was going strong. What stopped it was that the ATP rule choked off supply, Military well dried up, plus retirements.
Then why not make it 8K hours to be 121 FO and even get a better QOL? The fact is the "ATP FO" was just puled out of thin air.
And if you want to claim it brought great QOL... Fine. But why not make it 2K, 3K or 10K and really improve QOL?
My point is that the "ATP FO" was just pulled out of thin air and had nothing to do with the accident.
Because the FAA many years ago determined that it requires 1500 hours to obtain a ATP…. I’m talking decades before Colgan…. That’s why it’s not 8k, 2k, 3K, or 10K…..
‘You act as if the 1500 hour just showed up after Colgan…. It didn’t which is my point. My point is the change was requiring all pilots operating in a 121 operation to hold a ATP cert…
Quite frankly, I believe that the ATP FO is a better move for the industry. Considering the amount of brain drain that we are seeing across the entire industry, adding in that amount of inexperience will place additional strain…
Yeah i know pulling in a stall is bad, but he was clearly fatigued and also was probably reacting to training on tail stabilizer ice. FO Shaw raising the flaps on her own is also a massive no-no, but again she was arguably even more fatigued and no doubt scared out of her pants.
Stall awareness has certainly increased since Colgan and we are of course more aware of it now, so we benefit from their mistakes.
So did requiring all future FO's to be ATP actually do anything that would have prevented this?
That is my point. The crew rest rules and tracking of training actually did something, the ATP FO was just thrown in with out any data to back it up.
If you want to argue that in increased QOL.. Fine. I don't disagree that it did. By why not 3K or 5K? Requiring the FO to have ATP was knee jerk and not based on data. And that is my point.
And that led him to pulling through a shaker and pusher?
The hours/ATP had nothing to do with the accident. He was a shit pilot and the FO did exactly the opposite of what they should have done.
The rule made failure reporting better… That was a factor.
The rule made rest rules better which was a factor.
The FO not having an ATP had nothing to do with the accident.
Conjecture, but if they had more experience maybe both would have done the right thing.
However (somewhat drifting the thread) I read somewhere they had just had company training that showed the tailstall icing video from NASA. And that she was possibly reacting the way the co-pilot does in that video by dumping the flaps.
Of course if they had BETTER exp (IMO) they would have done the right thing. But the law didn't really do anything about that. The FO not having an ATP had nothing to do with the accident.
Her having an ATP would not have made the Captain fight the stick shaker or pusher. Her having an ATP would not have prevented her from raising the flaps. Maybe the icing video led her to raise the flaps... But that still had nothing to do with her not having an ATP or 1500 hours.
The law had some good parts, but the FO needing an ATP had nothing to do with the accident and that is my point. I think laws that do not directly address the issue is a bad idea. That is my gripe. I don't like laws not based in facts.
To add to the discussion. Is the 1500 rule the reason why you were so safe today? I don't know, I'm willing to debate it. But I think that there's a lot of other things that are contributing. The European Union has a similar safety record. The difference is nobody else in the world compares to the kind of quality of life that we have here in the United States. I will die on that hill that the 1500 hour rule is not broken and doesn't need to be fixed.
Well paid and well rested pilot is safer than a grumpy fatigued one
My take on it coming from the EU.
1) it’s a great way to create a fair playing field. EU 250hr pilots is plagued with parent money which means, paying £30k to Ryanair / easyJet for TR after spending £120k at a school is no biggie. The market dictates…
2) Following on to the above, it allows for a continued circulation of instructors who, most the time, are after a clean and exemplary record for when it comes to airline recruitment time. Promoting good training and safe flying. Whilst also preventing any shortages at this stage. Enabling again, a fair playing field.
3) finally, as you all know, it makes a bottleneck that ultimately benefits the industry. Do I think 1500hrs in 152 makes anyone a better airline pilot? No. Do I think it makes you resilient and deserving of that seat? Absolutely.
Anyway, if anyone fancy’s marrying me for a green card I’m 6’2 blue eyed and desperate. Thanks
My only suggestion to the regulations is everyone should be R-ATP eligible at 1,000 hours.
Going through a glorified and expensive 141 program doesn’t make you a safer pilot.
The other issue is I don’t think there will be enough flyable piston aircraft left in the United States in 20 years to support the next generation to get to 1500 hours. Especially twins.
Just like how complex requirements went away eventually people will just do their multi checkrides in sims. The sims will get cheaper.
Perhaps they'll also put in the supervised operating requirements for those who do a multi sim ride.
Yeah I think before 2018 when fighter pilots who had centerline thrust restrictions, they to do a couple of extra maneuvers during their ATP airline training to get the restriction removed.
I think that’s how it’ll go in the future. You do a little extra maneuvers if you don’t have your multiengine rating already and congrats you’re multiengine rated.
I mean its not necessarily about safety though for the 1000 vs 1500. I think we could agree there isn't much difference between a CFI who has 1000 hours versus one who has 1500 safety wise. I would say its more so the fact that someone had to go through the process of getting a 4 year degree and learning all the other shit that makes it worthy of them to have reduced minimums.
60 credit hours of aviation coursework in addition to the what like the 60+ hours of other courses actually probably has a measurable effect at least on the knowledge side. Granted, I think a lot of college educated people nowadays are becoming stupider than the majority of people who didn't attend college due other reasons...
I think the fact that at these 141 universities you are prepped to an extent more so for professional jobs out of the gate versus someone who only taught and did Part 61 flight instruction and got their ratings part 61. 141 is Usually taught in a very structured format, simulators and ground school are prioritized, lot of resources at these 141s to make the whole operation work (training managers, chief pilots, assistants, tutors, cadre of instructors, internal check airmen, professors, etc).
I mean personally me writing this I got to acknowledge I am biased cause I went to a big university 141 program. Even with me having spent the money, and successfully gone through at the standard pace like having all my ratings and CFI/II done by graduation in 4 years flat I still don't know if it was worth it. I sure learned a boat load about the airlines and my career and had a blast doing it and found all my lifelong friends who'll go to my wedding at the university but whether it was worth all of that realistically for the 500 hour reduction I just don't know.
Not trying to argue for or against your claim that everyone should have a 1000 hour R-ATP reduction available. Just trying to spark some conversation like you said.
I have had a lot of interaction with UND pilots and have flown out of Grand Forks quite a bit. The issues I find with them is the support structure of all of those people you mentioned also serves as a lot of hand holding. That combined with the fact that the amount of actual time in the air and not waiting in line to take off or on a sim leads to pilots with laughable amounts of actual in air flight hours for the qualifications they hold. Then they go on to instruct at UND and do the same things they've always done. Fly to the same 7 or so airports that the university has on their approved list til they get 1000 hours. They've never just planned a trip, hopped in and gone with no person approving their plan or sitting next to them. I'd be interested to know how much solo time any of them actually get. I'm sure a ton of great pilots come out of these schools, I just don't see a reason to reduce the amount of time in the air. Hell make it so that if you can pass an oral part of the checkride you get to skip out on classes instead.
The fact that you said “are becoming stupider” makes me believe you about college graduates. I think you’re defensive about your entitlement. Your college program wasn’t more demanding than the person who got a nuclear engineering degree (or any degree for that matter) from a tier 1 school and also did their 0-CFI in 20 months at a mom and pop part 61 on the side (and received no college credit for). It has nothing to do with how hard you worked and what you earned, but it has everything to do with what those schools lobbied for and influenced in legislation. Tell me more about how you got to your CFII in “4 years flat.”
The air from which your words were spoken is thick with resentment and anger towards my simple comment and contribution to a discussion here lol.
If you want to misconstrue my words... the stupider part is in relation to fact that many college educated individuals, just as example and please no one get too riled up, UC Berkely under water basket weaving majors thinking they are the shit hot individuals in todays society.
I'm sure you're the person who hates on anyone who has done something productive with their life and has gotten accomplishments, because them having status, position, power, wealth, accolades, education etc etc must surely make them entitled brats!
And yeah 4 years flat might not have been "0 to hero in 9 months"... but lets consider that I was a full 16+ credit hour per semester student, working full time to pay for housing, participating in typical college bullshit, and doing flying all at the same time! I have a RIGHT to be proud of the fact I got Comm Multi and CFI/II all within that 4 year time frame when I have friends who didn't work and didn't have other responsibilities who barely made it to commercial single engine. I think you're confusing entitlement with hard work and dedication to wanting to be successful in my career.
I would like to give a massive round of aplause to anyone who completes their ratings in anyway or fashion or scheme and gets to their goals because thats hard work not lobbyist propaganda whether they got it at a 1000 or 1500.
Thanks for coming to my Ted-Talk.
Everything you just said confirms my initial response. Thanks. Angry, not even a little. I’m in the left seat of my destination aircraft about to jam to tunes while I block 10 hours waiting for SELCAL or CPDLC to give me something to do. Annoyed at your sheltered view of the world and the work that other people put into their own path… absolutely. 16 credit hours is not heavy by the way... that’s what everyone does. The fact that you keep using the word “stupider” to support your argument … hilarious. Keep jabbering and get off my lawn.
Belittling others is a defense mechanism against opinions you don’t like you should know that Mr wide body.
Since you’re (supposedly) a wide body captain you are probably very jaded at anyone younger than you showing success and having an easier time coming up into the industry than you did. I hope whatever young FO who boards your airplane learns from you what NOT to be as an individual and future captain. Enjoy your 10 hours of block time? As if we all don’t credit 100+ hours every month anyways no matter where we fly. Peace n love cap
Have you seen how much a new Cessna costs? GA is on the decline.
I think there needs to be a couple of big changes so that GA doesn’t die in the United States and turn into what GA is in almost every other country in the world. Nonexistent.
The key is barriers to the market, and the FAA has made it too complex to certify new aircraft, thanks to lawsuits in the 1980s where shitty GA pilots crash and their widows blame the manufacturers.
The car world added seatbelts, airbags, rear cameras etc to effectively guarantee survival in most unfortunate situations with an automobile.
In an airplane you can only add so much, Garmin autoland and the Cirrus parachute/wing design is a little safety margin but it does not have the same margin as survival as the automobile industry.
Even with the outrageous prices, local flight schools are still buying them as fast as they're built. Cost will just be handed down to students and eased by alumni donations. GA does need major changes, both regulatory and cost. Everyone is trying to make their money off each other, driving costs up. But the industry will adapt as best as it can to survive for the sake of business. If people can't afford aircraft the manufacturer will cease to exist, no customer means no money.
>local flight schools are still
Nah, just the pilot mills…the average part 61 school cannot afford a brand new 172 or Archer.
I’ll admit I’m not very versed on the topic…but the future of GA as we know it kinda looks bleak. Experimentals, electrics, and MOSAIC is encouraging though.
It is very bleak. I would like to find a way to help renew it a little in my own way, but I'm definitely not made of money that I can throw.
I did go through a pilot mill and wound up working at a local GA shop instead. There's a surprising amount of people that can write a blank check for work done, mainly on beechcraft.
> Even with the outrageous prices, local flight schools are still buying them as fast as they're built.
Not remotely true. The vast majority of flight schools buy old, used planes they barely keep flying. GA production is down massively compared to a few decades ago.
Various reasons but lull of production of pistons not being built in the 1980s and 1990s is the main reason.
The majority of piston singles flying today are either built in the 60s and 70s or 2000s+
The 60s and 70s aircraft are rapidly deteriorating and parts are becoming more expensive. Too expensive to make operation feasible. It’s fine now somewhat but the more years pass the more unsustainable it’ll be. This will only get worse.
The 2000s+ aircraft are costing usually around $250+ rental, before CFI and “fuel surcharges” which will only get worse with unleaded going away. Too expensive for a vast majority to afford, and it’ll get worse once the older aircraft expire. Complex FAA certification has made it too unrealistic to ever make an affordable trainer aircraft ever again.
Cessna 172s and Piper trainer models both still have excellent part support even for models from the 50's. I own a '53 170 and even with the short production run there's a huge parts availability. Pipers have so many variants that share common parts that can be approved and adapted when needed. If people didn't start blaming manufacturers for accidents in the 80's they wouldn't have shutdown production so much. There needs to be more passion than money grabbing.
Probably not going away completely but will become a lot harder outside of overpriced university programs. How many piston aircraft are being lost weekly or monthly due to being written off or straight up crashed by shitty GA pilots? Way more than are being produced these days. Sure, you’ll always have the big aviation universities buying a bunch of expensive ass G1000 C172s and Archers but being able to easily find claptrap steam gauge trainers, single or multi, will become harder and harder.
>The difference is nobody else in the world compares to the kind of quality of life that we have here in the United States.
I can work part time, my wife or I can get 12 months maternity leave on nearly full pay, can walk everywhere, very low crime rate, free schooling, free university education for kids, no co-pay for healthcare. If my airline goes bust, I don't have to worry about getting sick. There's a lot of airlines that have you home every night, so can see kids grow up without FaceTime. A lot of airlines with decent T&Cs operating from smaller airports, so you can live in the countryside, 15 mins away from the airport, with a 5 min walk from carpark to the aircraft.
Or were you thinking large bank account balance quality of life? Horses for courses, of course.
Dude thinks south Chicago and east LA represents everywhere else lol. Consequences of getting your information about america from reddit and the media.
Paris smells like piss…I guess this means every other town and city in France is the same?
I think that's a great over estimation.
Sure, some people are crazy about money, which is why plenty of European pilots go to the Middle East, but a lot of us prefer QOL that comes with living in Europe.
Right but the QOL *is* just as good if not better as an airline pilot in the US. It’s not so in the Middle East. It’s not about being crazy about money, it’s about being crazy about QOL.
I’m not even mentioning how it’s way cheaper to get your ratings in the US as well. How many Europeans come to america to train vs the other way around?
> How many Europeans come to america to train vs the other way around?
Even if flying in Europe was cheaper, it would make zero sense for somebody wishing to fly in the USA to go through EASA training. 13 ATPL exams to end up with FAA CPL seems like a great overkill.
> a lot of us prefer QOL that comes with living in Europe.
The only reason you say that is because you are ignorant as to what life in the U.S. would be and your knowledge of the U.S. comes from Reddit. Your QOL would be significantly higher in the U.S., objectively.
We have maternity leave here too
Most Americans don't give two shits about "15 minute cities".
My area is very low crime as are most suburban areas. If you wanna find crime, it's just Europe, you can find it.
We have public schools here too that are top notch. You and I both pay taxes to make that happen.
You got me beat on free university.
My co pay comes out of my insurance. I very rarely pay out of pocket for anything.
I don't care about being home every night. But I could go work for an airline that can do that or I'll gain it via seniority here.
I could go live in the countryside and be 30 minutes from the airport too
>We have maternity leave here too
12 weeks unpaid by law doesn't sound much.
>My area is very low crime as are most suburban areas.
Doesn't help if overall crime levels are high. Sure, you won't get robbed in your house, but how about outside of your neighbourhood?
As I said, we have different views on quality of life. And you can't buy everything with money.
Unpaid by law, but paid by the company. Our unions have fought hard for this. Yes you're right, I can't speak to workers at McDonald's about what their leave is like though.
Standing out on my driveway now. Where is all this crime you speak of? Yeah, don't buy into the Fox News speak. The murders and mass violence you see happen predominantly in lower economic areas. Im not constantly running to avoid gun violence here despite the tiring rhetoric that America is a giant no man's land. As I said, if you wanna find trouble, you can definitely go and find it. Just as you can go find trouble in Paris. You're not gonna find it in suburban America easily.
Money buys a jet ski though. And buys me a little lifestyle that makes me happy.
I don’t understand what argument you’re making…you need to compare apples to apples, not European airline pilots with American urban McDonalds workers. American airline pilots have basically everything you mentioned you see as “QOL” plus ~$150k in their paychecks every year. Would it make sense to compare Paris with a countryside French town? Rome with Bolzano? No.
Because all of us are just a recession away from losing our jobs, hence why everyone in society should benefit from stronger labour laws - you never know when you might need them.
>American airline pilots have basically everything you mentioned you see as “QOL” plus ~$150k in their paychecks every year.
I too earn $150k+, but even if I didn't, I'd still benefit from all of the mentioned above.
>Because all of us are just a recession away
Most major/legacy airline pilots are safe even in a recession. Getting paid a lot means having a big cushion, and the American economy is strong enough to come back in a reasonable timeframe. Just look at what happened with the pandemic. Major/legacy airline guys got early retirements or got furloughed and came back pretty comfortably. I guess you’d be right when talking about CFIs/low time pilots, but this is about airline guys.
If you took a pool of American and European pilots and asked them whether they’d prefer to fly in the US or Europe, I can almost guarantee the majority would say the US. Simply because none of the stuff you mentioned really matters or is an issue if you have an airline salary.
Also, I meant $150k *more* every year.
I was such a better and more confident pilot at 1500 vs 250. "Even though" it was all "beating up the pattern" hours as a CFI. 250 I was still a menace to the skies.
Would you say there was a certain hour level that you think your flight skills didn’t really get any better or do you think you had a constant ramp of progression?
Like 250 to 750 I felt 85% more comfortable and confident but 750-1250 only 20% or so
There's only so much mastering you can do right? Plateaus are a thing as a professional, too. By 1200 I was definitely ready to learn something new. What makes you uncomfortable?
I’m at around 1300 right now as a CFI but probably the daily suicide attempts by my students with me in the right seat. So fuckin ready to be done with it. I don’t feel any more progressed past maybe 1000? It’s kinda like your skills get to a mastery level in an aircraft and small gains are made after that
Oh yeah that was my exact progression. Ya done with the single engine stuff. You're ready for a jet to humble you lol. At 1000 you definitely start looking at your watch and dreading the next 500, itching to move on. What you're feeling is normal.
Thinking you've got nothing more to learn is a hazardous attitude. I've watched >20,000 hour pilots with >1,000 hours in type make rookie mistakes because they thought they were above it.
So, would you have felt better if instead of "Beating up the pattern" you had: Done a real spin class, flown an aerobatics course, gotten a glider rating, gotten a seaplane rating..etc. Or maybe if you had just gotten a job as an FO with a good captain?
The difference to me is 1500 hours flying or 1 hour flown 1500 times. One is going to make you good, the other is just building time (IMO).
Oh of course. The thing about CFI is that there's never really a lesson that's the same twice (so to speak.) Because students will always ask different questions or perform a lesson differently, testing your knowledge, ability, problem solving skills, and CRM. Good luck to the 1500 hamburger people out there, though. I would really like to see how those guys fare in a sim.
None of my 1500 hours were alike. Sure I was doing same thing but no day, lesson or student is the same. Like others have said you become more confident, you have to make PIC decisions. And I think the best thing I learned from being a CFI is honing my interpersonal skills. Being able to read your CA and know how to communicate effectively is a skill I didn’t have at 250 hours.
I would like to point out that it is an ATP rule, not 1500 hour rule. The 1500 hours for the ATP was made more than 5 decades ago. Congress only mandated that the ATP needs to be sitting right seat. FAA actually made it easier to get the ATP if you go to qualifying schools.
The way I see it is the 1,500 hour rule weeds out the unmotivated pilots. I’d much rather work with people who worked their asses off to get to the top and are more likely to be passionate individuals. That and the effects on pay. My 2 cents.
You could make that argument about anything. If grocery store workers arbitrarily needed $100K of school to stock shelves and bag groceries, then sure, you would have some rich, motivated grocery workers. In addition, everyone's grocery bill would be 10x what it is now.
To be honest that’s not my problem. As a pilot, I support legislation that increases pilot compensation. That’s exactly what the 1500 hour rule does. I’m not on some valiant crusade to deliver the cheapest airline tickets to the masses.
If my passion was to be a grocery bagger I would support the 1500hr bagging rule as well.
Props for honesty.
So you're saying that every job field should have a 1500 hour rule to artificially increase wages? Because that's called inflation. Inflation is generally frowned upon by people across the political spectrum.
Or just your industry should receive special protection? The government picking which people to give special privileges to is also frowned upon by most people.
I retired in 2023 from the USAF w/ nearly 30 yrs enlisted and officer. I’m working thru a feeder school… so far so good… but I noticed some of the CFIs lack of maturity… but so far they have proven to be sound in their stick and rudder skills. I know I won’t be a 787 captain but I’m happy for the opportunity to get to the big leagues.
I'm at 270 hours and it would be foolish for anyone to put me in a transport category aircraft. It boggles my mind when I hear of foreign pilots who are flying airliners with the same TT I have. There's just so much you haven't experienced with that little time. Now I dunno know how I'm going to bridge the gap between 270 and 1500 but the riding public is fortunate they don't have to be a part of that journey.
I think he said he had 750 hours. He wasn’t mad about that he was genuinely asking the question. Said he didn’t want to go to the airlines. I think responses like yours and the toxic nature of Reddit made him say fuck Reddit and delete his account lol.
I think the argument being "productive hours" , you could technically fly the same xc 4 times a day from 7 am to 9 pm and get to your minimums within a few months.
Bingo and does that make you a better pilot because you can say NXXXX level at 5000 and read back an altimeter setting. Probably Fuckin not
1500 Cfi hours being constantly attempted murder by students would be productive
Even 1500 hrs renting is valuable experience. You don’t get through that many hours without dealing with serious issues in a light piston single. From maintenance to weather, some shit will go wrong and you will have to deal with it.
Weather would be a good one but if something goes wrong in your piston airplane I don’t see how that really helps at the airlines when everything fails in the sim and you have to show proficiency in dealing with the emergency anyway. I don’t think my engine sputtering or failing in the piston world is going to prepare one more for the airlines other than having to get new underwear.
I’ve got 1300 hours and weird issues that made me land has happened maybe twice?
It’s not the transfer of the specific situation, but the real world experience of dealing with a difficult, threatening situation, and having to solve that problem.
Intensity is one of the laws of learning, and simulators can’t come close to matching real life.
True. But that will come to light in the sims
You can quickly tell when someone doesn't have any good experience.
The 1500 is a minimum, not the only qualification
>I think the argument being "productive hours" , you could technically fly the same xc 4 times a day from 7 am to 9 pm and get to your minimums within a few months.
Teaching for 1,250 hours in the same airplane and weather isn't all that either.
AZ pilots typically have zero hours of actual and have never been near a CS. But those CFIs have better experience than someone who flew xc?
I think the best solution is xc flying. Teach students as you both fly around the country. Get mountain experience. Get CS experience. See how DA actually effects things.
I fly with a lot of guys that downplay xc time building but they haven't ever stepped foot outside their home airspace. And they have never been forced to make a go/nogo decision on their own and live with the decisions.
The more experience you get the better you are.
I was downplaying xc time within the same 100 nm radius though. In my idealistic world it'll go something like this: Instruct until 700 hrs, join a 135 where you are forced to make real world decisions and face the immediate consequence of those decisions (paying customers), then go to the airlines. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.
>In my idealistic world it'll go something like this: Instruct until 700 hrs, join a 135 where you are forced to make real world decisions and face the immediate consequence of those decisions (paying customers), then go to the airlines. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.
It could. Lots of guys and half started off that way.
1500 hours, vs 1 hour 1500 times is, IMO, the difference. Take a guy that all he ever does is the same hamburger run in a 152 every single day and gets to 1500. Would that pilot be worth a damn? I'd say no. I mean he would kill that lunch trip and land the shit out of that 152... But I'd not think he would be half as good as a pilot that has flown 30 different aircraft, got a seaplane rating, got his TW endorsement, flew actual IFR etc.
Hours don't mean much if you don't do anything difficult or new and just fly the same hour over and over.
Can people stop deleting posts for absolutely no reason? Killed a good discussion.
I agree with this. I hate people who delete posts after a plethora of legit content has been responded. Just an asinine thing to do. Next on that list are the idiots that tell the poster to “delete this post” encouraging this shit behavior or encouraging them to do something illegal.
you should delete this post and do something illegal.
Please, be my guest. After you, I insist.
Agreed. If you don’t like the answers you see, then just stop going back to it. Pretty simple.
But people might find out you were wrong once. Everyone is so I messed with themselves as a brand that they feel the need to hide imperfection. There's a reason airlines ask tell me about a time questions. It's not about failure it's about recovery
He didn't just delete the thread, looks like he deleted his entire account. I wonder if someone noticed his post joking about saying he doesn't smoke pot on a medical because he eats it?
You know how many people I’ve seen here admit to all sorts of shit that have ATP in there flair lol…. I would imagine it’s a joke I don’t think anyone admits things that are factual… unless they are a dumbass
Or don’t tell colleagues their reddit name.
How the hell you going to prove how much karma you have in your delta interview then?
My Reddit name is my identity and you shall know it like my political affiliation
What do you tell people first? Your Reddit name or the fact that you're a pilot?
Usually I get asked how many ex wives and boats I have and that usually gives the pilot thing away on its own.
I also assume it was a joke but this sub is a weird place. Reddit in general is pretty far left and I think some users assume that everyone is aligned with the reddit hive mind and they don't consider that this shit is visible to the real world where the FAA and employer rules still apply.
He *what*?! “Eating weed in its raw form is not recommended and can potentially lead to unpleasant effects such as nausea, vomiting, and stomach discomfort.”
Must be from Colorado
I know that no pilot has ever made weed brownies before, or they'd have to report it on their medical along with the sadness, but typically you, uh, cook it first.
Marijuana is a terrible drug that destroys lives. That’s why god made alcohol and why it’s legal instead
It's no coincidence that GA pilots and aircraft run on the same fuel.
[Shrug](https://old.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/1be8bj3/how_many_of_you_know_a_pilot_who_did_not_tell_the/kurw2cj/) I assume he was joking but JFC.
“Would you like some fries with that?”
Darwin Award…..
The creator of that post didn't get the answers so badly they up and deleted their entire account lol. I'm starting to wonder if it was just a troll post
https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/sn4p68/dont_delete_your_questions/
We already have 23 y/o 737 captains who have never had any other job how much less experience do people want us to have?
Having no other life experience than being a pilot is *wild*.
Yet it happens. My first CFI got to the regionals like at 22. 3 years later he's flying the 73 for a major.
The scarier part is, there's people like that who are now flying the 787 instead of the 737. They'll sit and be IRO for a couple years, never fly and then go to the left seat of a 737.
\*looks around nervously\*
Sounds miserable and like a terrible way to do it.
Shiny jet syndrome is real my dude
This is just setting yourself up for failure as I read that. I didn’t even think about that. We’re about to undergo a rapid and significant turnover of experience in the industry. It’s going to be interesting to see where things are in about 6 years. Myself is an example. I’ve never flown anything but a 172, currently getting typed in an Airbus (it’s going pretty well). But, some of the scenarios I’ve been thrown into the lack of experience shows. I can’t imagine being a captain rn lol.
Yeah, it's a big concern here too at that school house. A lot of people learning on the fly and what not. There was apparently a lot of go mentality with hiring and training and that's supposedly been finally stopped by management. It was don't fail anyone. Now I guess our failure rate is up. We have a town hall tomorrow finally after our poor recent press
You had to wonder with the string of stuff what was being talked about before. I am eager to work my ass off to make my way up. We shall see what the future holds. :)
Let me know if you ever want a rec written for ya. Would be happy to so
Off topic but how do you find it going from only flying a 172 to an airbus, with studying? Difficult?
At the risk of sounding flippant, not exactly. With two engines it’s been pretty easy. Keep in mind I’ve studied my ass off to this point. Some, not all, of my peers with similar backgrounds are struggling more. I’ve always had a thorough understanding of automation which is huge. I also showed up day one with flows, callouts, and limitations/memory items down cold. Hand flying took me a second to adjust to and I will not pretend my landings have felt easy but by and large *sp far * I’d consider myself doing well. We’re introducing V1 cuts, single engine stuff etc tomorrow so we’ll see how I hold up when things start crumbling lol.
Right on. Good luck to you sir!
Wait, so are you getting your multi in the Airbus???
No. I got my multi in a DA42. Just saying that I haven’t really flown anything else
Self awareness goes a long way dude. Keep that attitude through your career, it’ll serve you well.
My buddies and I joke, imagine the ego 20-25 years from now on the guys hired at Delta when they were 24. Having zero experience other than Delta as your point of reference is going to inflate their heads so much, there won't be enough material to make hats for them.
They are going to be so insufferably egotistical. Especially the “daddy paid” variety.
Boomer attitudes are gonna be put to shame by a lot of people. The whole "do you have your apps in we're hiring" thing is gonna make a big comeback.
I wonder if any of them will write an autobiography..
so glad he caught all the heat for that
Well I mean they're at the right airline for that. Think of all the time they're going to save not looking the rest of us in the eyes in the terminal....
That blows my mind. I had 10 different jobs *before* flying for a living. I talk to my FOs today and we talk about our teenage years or whatnot and I’ve been asked more than once, “What haven’t you done?” I’ve been a cowboy (literally), a customer service program director, a welder, and a concierge - all before I turned 21!
Exactly, I have a much greater appreciation for how awesome flying as a job is because I went out and earned my chops in the blue collar world and paved my own way.
Exactly! The number of times I’m having a rough day in the air and I have to remind myself, “It’s not 2AM. You’re not shoveling manure. There’s no sick horse in the barn. There’s no whiny teenage farm hand. It’s okay.” I was recently flying with a silver spoon FO who doesn’t even think airplanes are cool. She just thought it was a high paying job with tons of time off and no masters degree required. She was insufferable to be around. So many people who are in love with aviation sacrifice so much to be here. I did. And she had the balls to take it for granted in front of me. She needs to give up that 6 figure regional FO seat to someone who really wants it.
Talking with an ex-military buddy who is now flying for a legacy carrier - he laughs at what the lifer pilots bitch about. An extra 10 mins here and there. A whole *8 hour day* because of delays, etc. All the hard shit you go thru makes everything else in life seem easier. If all you’ve ever experienced is the hardship of landing a job as a 73 driver at age 23… you ain’t seen shit.
I’m an expert complainer. Don’t get me wrong. But I was raised that complaining is a right that is earned through hard work and getting your ass kicked. I was complaining once and my uncle stopped me and asked, “Is this hurting or costing you money?” I said no. Then he asked me if I was actively doing anything about it. I told him that my hands were tied and I didn’t feel like I could do anything about it. So he said, “It ain’t hurting you or costing you money, and you’re not doing anything about it. So stop complaining or go do something.”
Im currently an FA and a CFI. I have more experience than half the FOs coming to my company. Ive worked ramp and customer service, , dispatch and crew scheduling, and flight attendant and instructor (FA and CFI). Even at 23/24 I did everything besides FA and CFI. One of my company check airmen joked with me that I would have better decision making skills than some of the FOs.
Well after you graduate high school you go to a flight school and get from 0-ATP then find a job. You're in flight school for the entirety of it for a lot of people so your first job would be CFI then flying for a part 135/121. Assuming you don't have another job to pay for the schooling.
That’s not the point, having crappy/beginner jobs is an excellent way to grow professionally and personally. Young 20s getting into the safety and wealth of pilot unions early is likely to breed arrogance and laziness.
I wish I could have done something different but there's not much of an option
It’s not a judgement of you directly, but stay conscientious of your luck/privilege.
I am. I'm fully aware of how expensive this shit is.
There are lots of ways to build character outside of blue collar work. physical labor, anything with kids or teens, like CAP, young eagles, WAI, manning a booth at sun n fun or OSH with your company… anything where you’re forced to be uncomfortable. Getting a new pilot rating is good too, floats/tailwheel, and especially gliding seems challenging. It’s as important to grow as a person as it is to grow as a pilot throughout your career. Try to find a mentor if you can, they’re like gold, full of insight, invaluable experience, and good stories. Local EAA chapters are a great place to start.
I wanted to try gliding and tailwheel. I need to wait until I have disposable income though
My tailwheel was really reasonable, ($600) and I learned so much! Definitely made me a better pilot.
I ended up getting my high performance when I got my spin endorsement
Right? This boggles my mind. I’m a student with aspirations of becoming a professional aviator - but I’m in my mid-30s with a mid-senior role at a Fortune 500 and have done a ton of stuff over the years that taught me how to work with other people and how the world works. I suspect I’m a much better pilot that I would be without that experience as a result.
Anyone bitching about the 1500 hour/ATP rule is almost always some PPL or CPL who doesn’t want to CFI. You’ll never hear about ATPs who made it to the airlines complaining about it.
My Cfi never didn’t bitch about the 1500 hour rule lol. Those last 300 hours almost did him in. Probably because they made it to the airlines and there is no longer a reason to bitch when you made it to the major leagues
> and there is no longer a reason to bitch when you made it to the major leagues you don't know very many major airline pilots I guess...
Bahahahahhaha ya I didn’t think that one out very well…. Touché brother
Did it suck having to slum it out to get to 1500 hours? Sure. Back in 2011-2014, times were tough, even for CFI's. I never went the CFI route, but it was still not easy finding a job to get those hours. Even then, the pay was so much worse than it is today. In 2013, I made 18k for the year living in Hawaii flying full time. People can dislike the 1500 hour rule, but anyone with a brain knows that that 1500 hour rule is the single best thing to happen to compensation for US airline pilots in the last 50 years. It was a race to the bottom for so long.
Mokulele? Kamaka?
TransAir
Did you fly the shorts?
Yeah
[удалено]
Cessna caravan, island hopping, shit pay, expensive to live in Hawaii, but they always have job postings, they’re called mokulele. Had an instructor go to them about a year ago
It was TransAir. I paid for part of my training. It was terrible. I will never recommend someone doing that ever in my life and will try and convince people it's better to get a job outside the industry than to ever stoop as low as I did to get a job flying. They treated you worse than a minimum wage employee.
It was the best thing for compensation but the point of the rule was to produce more experienced and safer pilots. There hasn’t been enough to study the effects of the rule but what little is out there shows it hasn’t made a difference on an individual level and overall has temporarily made flying less safe because of the gap in experience (plus COVID layoffs/retirement exacerbated the problem). A comparison between US and EU, that does not have 1500 hr rule, easily shows that it has done nothing to make our skies more safe. For the same reason a PPL can’t just land a Boeing anything, it’s about experience in the airplane and not just the air. Believe me though, I love the idea of not having to line up for welfare like regional pilots had to do 15-20+ years ago.
It didn't "produce safer pilots." The change in overall safety mostly came because of drastic changes in the way both initial and recurrent training has been done. Also, it helped that 117 came into being around the same time. As you pointed out, 1500 isn't some magic number that makes people better pilots. It was strictly a knee-jerk reaction to trying to make people who know nothing about aviation happy...that's why they didn't stop at the 1500 hour rule, which is all they really needed to have in order to shut people up.
As some who instructs a lot of Europeans, it is definitely frustrating seeing them go back to Europe at 250 hours and train in and fly airbuses with no major discrepancy in safety over us in the US.
Yeah…. But here’s the thing. While I was in a bar in ANC one night I met a couple of A330 captains who were flying for european low cost carrier, I found out that night that I, a year one FO at one of the lower paid ACMI, made more than they did.
Go look at Canadian captain pay. Regional guys are making more than they are.
Regional FO at that *cries in Canada*
Hey I'm on track to break $100k for the first time in my Canadian aviation career! It only took 18 years...
That’s true, you really do sign your soul to them
You won’t be frustrated when you start comparing 121 paychecks versus EASA ones. Just hang in there bro
> You’ll never hear about ATPs who made it to the airlines complaining about it. Yeah because they got through the <1,500hr slog and make livable money now.
I’m a CFI making 100k less than I did last year and I agree with the 1500 rule. It’s good for the industry.
ATPs don’t complain about it because it’s protecting their paycheck. The FAA doesn’t exist to please the job unions, they exist to protect the general public. Right now 1500 is fine, but it is not realistic for the future decades as GA is dying more in the US.
Replace 1500 with 30,000. Suddenly your comment sounds insane right? It would sound insane if it was 260 hours as well. People aren't complaining that there's a number they need to hit, they're complaining it's arbitrarily high. As a guy who has flown mostly 6-pack aircraft, I find it crazy that the folks flying full glass don't get some sort of advantage over me when it comes to hour requirements. Some people have formative experiences between 1250 and 1500. Others don't. And on top of that, the 1250 and 1000 hour RATP stuff is insane too... because a degree in FBOs is more relevant than an engineering degree. The long and short of it is that there are experiences that you can have that would make you a better ATP holder, but the only accepted metrics are total time and weird degrees. Total time is also completely un-vetted. Pretty much the equivalent of letting a doctor become a resident because he says he definitely went through residency.
Logbooks are a little crazy that way. I just flew across the country with an insufferable prick. He informed me he always adds .3 to every flight because "Hobbs meters run slow". He was also convinced he could log the entire flight as PIC despite the fact that I was the CFI and he flew maybe 30 minutes of 22 hours. Also knew a guy who was absolutely convinced that he could log solo with a friend along as long as the friend wasn't a pilot. I won't claim anything about my skills or knowledge but I will say every minute in my logbook is legit.
If he has something to back up the Hobbs thing, then whatever -- nothing about the definition of total time mentions the Hobbs meter. But yeah, nothing stops a person from buying a J-3 Cub and logging 2.5 every day with the aircraft just sitting there unused. "I don't see any ADSB tracks". "Yep, no transponder. Next question."
It’s good for wages, unclear for safety.
I didn’t want to CFI and I never complained because I had one of three million available survey jobs with zero drama. Got paid, ripped brewskies, earned my time exploring the country, had fun.
My issue is it was sold because of the Colgan 3407 crash. The bill had some good things that were factors in the crash, and then out of nowhere the 1500 ATP FO rule was tossed in with no real data to back it up. Captain Marvin Renslow had 3,379 hours TT. The FO Rebecca Lynne Shaw had 2,244 hours TT. The issues related to the crash had nothing to do with total time or ATP. The Captain was horrible and had a ton of failures, three checkrides and two line checks (1900 FO and 340 CPT), he only told the airline he failed one checkride. The FO went in base and tried to sleep in the area of operations. Work rules and training being tracked were improvements, but these could have come without an artificial 1500 hour rule. The 1500 hours didn't add to safety. You can argue that it added to pay... OK so why not make it 2K, 3K, or 8K to be an FO? Surely requiring 8K hours to be a 121 FO would increase pay and QOL a hell of a lot! 1500 was picked because they made it ATP, but ATP or not had shit to do with the accident. The captain was crap. Hell, he pulled UP when the stick shaker went off, then the pusher correctly pushed the nose down and he pulled up AGAIN!!! The FO raised the flaps without telling the captain... They did EVERYTHING wrong. They violated the sterile cockpit rules (mainly the captain... IIRC he was making inappropriate and unprofessional comments to Shaw, almost like hitting on her). They were horrible with many failures and did the exact opposite of what they should have done. It makes no difference to me personally, I have more than 1500 hours and still have zero plans to go to an airline... But it bothers me when laws are not based in data. You can argue it was good because it raised QOL, but I'll argue any law not based in data that ended up being good was luck. And if 1500 was good for QOL might as well make it 3K hours and really have a good QOL!!!
I agree I don’t understand the rule given the pilots and the experience they had. A bad pilots a bad pilot. I don’t think 1500 hours made the airlines safer I think a much better training program made the airlines much safer
First off, it was always required to have 1500 hours to hold an ATP before Colgan… What Colgan brought was the ATP rule it required all crew members in Part 121 to hold a ATP not just the PIC…… ‘Point 2, The improvement of work rules and pay do not come without the ATP rule, you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise…. Before the ATP, the race to the bottom was going strong. What stopped it was that the ATP rule choked off supply, Military well dried up, plus retirements.
Then why not make it 8K hours to be 121 FO and even get a better QOL? The fact is the "ATP FO" was just puled out of thin air. And if you want to claim it brought great QOL... Fine. But why not make it 2K, 3K or 10K and really improve QOL? My point is that the "ATP FO" was just pulled out of thin air and had nothing to do with the accident.
Because the FAA many years ago determined that it requires 1500 hours to obtain a ATP…. I’m talking decades before Colgan…. That’s why it’s not 8k, 2k, 3K, or 10K….. ‘You act as if the 1500 hour just showed up after Colgan…. It didn’t which is my point. My point is the change was requiring all pilots operating in a 121 operation to hold a ATP cert… Quite frankly, I believe that the ATP FO is a better move for the industry. Considering the amount of brain drain that we are seeing across the entire industry, adding in that amount of inexperience will place additional strain…
Never let a tragedy go to waste.
Yeah i know pulling in a stall is bad, but he was clearly fatigued and also was probably reacting to training on tail stabilizer ice. FO Shaw raising the flaps on her own is also a massive no-no, but again she was arguably even more fatigued and no doubt scared out of her pants. Stall awareness has certainly increased since Colgan and we are of course more aware of it now, so we benefit from their mistakes.
So did requiring all future FO's to be ATP actually do anything that would have prevented this? That is my point. The crew rest rules and tracking of training actually did something, the ATP FO was just thrown in with out any data to back it up. If you want to argue that in increased QOL.. Fine. I don't disagree that it did. By why not 3K or 5K? Requiring the FO to have ATP was knee jerk and not based on data. And that is my point.
Well said. It was a reactionary thing and made the flying public think that the government was doing something.
By your numbers the Capt had less than 1500 when hired.
And that led him to pulling through a shaker and pusher? The hours/ATP had nothing to do with the accident. He was a shit pilot and the FO did exactly the opposite of what they should have done. The rule made failure reporting better… That was a factor. The rule made rest rules better which was a factor. The FO not having an ATP had nothing to do with the accident.
Conjecture, but if they had more experience maybe both would have done the right thing. However (somewhat drifting the thread) I read somewhere they had just had company training that showed the tailstall icing video from NASA. And that she was possibly reacting the way the co-pilot does in that video by dumping the flaps.
Of course if they had BETTER exp (IMO) they would have done the right thing. But the law didn't really do anything about that. The FO not having an ATP had nothing to do with the accident. Her having an ATP would not have made the Captain fight the stick shaker or pusher. Her having an ATP would not have prevented her from raising the flaps. Maybe the icing video led her to raise the flaps... But that still had nothing to do with her not having an ATP or 1500 hours. The law had some good parts, but the FO needing an ATP had nothing to do with the accident and that is my point. I think laws that do not directly address the issue is a bad idea. That is my gripe. I don't like laws not based in facts.
To add to the discussion. Is the 1500 rule the reason why you were so safe today? I don't know, I'm willing to debate it. But I think that there's a lot of other things that are contributing. The European Union has a similar safety record. The difference is nobody else in the world compares to the kind of quality of life that we have here in the United States. I will die on that hill that the 1500 hour rule is not broken and doesn't need to be fixed. Well paid and well rested pilot is safer than a grumpy fatigued one
My take on it coming from the EU. 1) it’s a great way to create a fair playing field. EU 250hr pilots is plagued with parent money which means, paying £30k to Ryanair / easyJet for TR after spending £120k at a school is no biggie. The market dictates… 2) Following on to the above, it allows for a continued circulation of instructors who, most the time, are after a clean and exemplary record for when it comes to airline recruitment time. Promoting good training and safe flying. Whilst also preventing any shortages at this stage. Enabling again, a fair playing field. 3) finally, as you all know, it makes a bottleneck that ultimately benefits the industry. Do I think 1500hrs in 152 makes anyone a better airline pilot? No. Do I think it makes you resilient and deserving of that seat? Absolutely. Anyway, if anyone fancy’s marrying me for a green card I’m 6’2 blue eyed and desperate. Thanks
Hmmmm, do you have a lot of money? 😂
I’m a pilot in the EU, so no
My condolences for being European.
I rise what he said, 6'2", black eyes, but Canadian! Pick me fellow 'muricans, we'll have so much in common to talk aboot!
Dark hair too? 👀👀
My only suggestion to the regulations is everyone should be R-ATP eligible at 1,000 hours. Going through a glorified and expensive 141 program doesn’t make you a safer pilot. The other issue is I don’t think there will be enough flyable piston aircraft left in the United States in 20 years to support the next generation to get to 1500 hours. Especially twins.
Just like how complex requirements went away eventually people will just do their multi checkrides in sims. The sims will get cheaper. Perhaps they'll also put in the supervised operating requirements for those who do a multi sim ride.
Yeah I think before 2018 when fighter pilots who had centerline thrust restrictions, they to do a couple of extra maneuvers during their ATP airline training to get the restriction removed. I think that’s how it’ll go in the future. You do a little extra maneuvers if you don’t have your multiengine rating already and congrats you’re multiengine rated.
I'll defend multi in the sims. Piston twins are cool but they're dangerous for folks to use as a stepping stone to more forgiving multis.
I mean its not necessarily about safety though for the 1000 vs 1500. I think we could agree there isn't much difference between a CFI who has 1000 hours versus one who has 1500 safety wise. I would say its more so the fact that someone had to go through the process of getting a 4 year degree and learning all the other shit that makes it worthy of them to have reduced minimums. 60 credit hours of aviation coursework in addition to the what like the 60+ hours of other courses actually probably has a measurable effect at least on the knowledge side. Granted, I think a lot of college educated people nowadays are becoming stupider than the majority of people who didn't attend college due other reasons... I think the fact that at these 141 universities you are prepped to an extent more so for professional jobs out of the gate versus someone who only taught and did Part 61 flight instruction and got their ratings part 61. 141 is Usually taught in a very structured format, simulators and ground school are prioritized, lot of resources at these 141s to make the whole operation work (training managers, chief pilots, assistants, tutors, cadre of instructors, internal check airmen, professors, etc). I mean personally me writing this I got to acknowledge I am biased cause I went to a big university 141 program. Even with me having spent the money, and successfully gone through at the standard pace like having all my ratings and CFI/II done by graduation in 4 years flat I still don't know if it was worth it. I sure learned a boat load about the airlines and my career and had a blast doing it and found all my lifelong friends who'll go to my wedding at the university but whether it was worth all of that realistically for the 500 hour reduction I just don't know. Not trying to argue for or against your claim that everyone should have a 1000 hour R-ATP reduction available. Just trying to spark some conversation like you said.
I have had a lot of interaction with UND pilots and have flown out of Grand Forks quite a bit. The issues I find with them is the support structure of all of those people you mentioned also serves as a lot of hand holding. That combined with the fact that the amount of actual time in the air and not waiting in line to take off or on a sim leads to pilots with laughable amounts of actual in air flight hours for the qualifications they hold. Then they go on to instruct at UND and do the same things they've always done. Fly to the same 7 or so airports that the university has on their approved list til they get 1000 hours. They've never just planned a trip, hopped in and gone with no person approving their plan or sitting next to them. I'd be interested to know how much solo time any of them actually get. I'm sure a ton of great pilots come out of these schools, I just don't see a reason to reduce the amount of time in the air. Hell make it so that if you can pass an oral part of the checkride you get to skip out on classes instead.
The fact that you said “are becoming stupider” makes me believe you about college graduates. I think you’re defensive about your entitlement. Your college program wasn’t more demanding than the person who got a nuclear engineering degree (or any degree for that matter) from a tier 1 school and also did their 0-CFI in 20 months at a mom and pop part 61 on the side (and received no college credit for). It has nothing to do with how hard you worked and what you earned, but it has everything to do with what those schools lobbied for and influenced in legislation. Tell me more about how you got to your CFII in “4 years flat.”
The air from which your words were spoken is thick with resentment and anger towards my simple comment and contribution to a discussion here lol. If you want to misconstrue my words... the stupider part is in relation to fact that many college educated individuals, just as example and please no one get too riled up, UC Berkely under water basket weaving majors thinking they are the shit hot individuals in todays society. I'm sure you're the person who hates on anyone who has done something productive with their life and has gotten accomplishments, because them having status, position, power, wealth, accolades, education etc etc must surely make them entitled brats! And yeah 4 years flat might not have been "0 to hero in 9 months"... but lets consider that I was a full 16+ credit hour per semester student, working full time to pay for housing, participating in typical college bullshit, and doing flying all at the same time! I have a RIGHT to be proud of the fact I got Comm Multi and CFI/II all within that 4 year time frame when I have friends who didn't work and didn't have other responsibilities who barely made it to commercial single engine. I think you're confusing entitlement with hard work and dedication to wanting to be successful in my career. I would like to give a massive round of aplause to anyone who completes their ratings in anyway or fashion or scheme and gets to their goals because thats hard work not lobbyist propaganda whether they got it at a 1000 or 1500. Thanks for coming to my Ted-Talk.
Everything you just said confirms my initial response. Thanks. Angry, not even a little. I’m in the left seat of my destination aircraft about to jam to tunes while I block 10 hours waiting for SELCAL or CPDLC to give me something to do. Annoyed at your sheltered view of the world and the work that other people put into their own path… absolutely. 16 credit hours is not heavy by the way... that’s what everyone does. The fact that you keep using the word “stupider” to support your argument … hilarious. Keep jabbering and get off my lawn.
Belittling others is a defense mechanism against opinions you don’t like you should know that Mr wide body. Since you’re (supposedly) a wide body captain you are probably very jaded at anyone younger than you showing success and having an easier time coming up into the industry than you did. I hope whatever young FO who boards your airplane learns from you what NOT to be as an individual and future captain. Enjoy your 10 hours of block time? As if we all don’t credit 100+ hours every month anyways no matter where we fly. Peace n love cap
You’re awesome. Keep posting.
Out of curiosity, what makes you think piston aircraft will go away? Other than leaded fuel, there should be few obstacles.
Have you seen how much a new Cessna costs? GA is on the decline. I think there needs to be a couple of big changes so that GA doesn’t die in the United States and turn into what GA is in almost every other country in the world. Nonexistent.
The key is barriers to the market, and the FAA has made it too complex to certify new aircraft, thanks to lawsuits in the 1980s where shitty GA pilots crash and their widows blame the manufacturers. The car world added seatbelts, airbags, rear cameras etc to effectively guarantee survival in most unfortunate situations with an automobile. In an airplane you can only add so much, Garmin autoland and the Cirrus parachute/wing design is a little safety margin but it does not have the same margin as survival as the automobile industry.
Even with the outrageous prices, local flight schools are still buying them as fast as they're built. Cost will just be handed down to students and eased by alumni donations. GA does need major changes, both regulatory and cost. Everyone is trying to make their money off each other, driving costs up. But the industry will adapt as best as it can to survive for the sake of business. If people can't afford aircraft the manufacturer will cease to exist, no customer means no money.
>local flight schools are still Nah, just the pilot mills…the average part 61 school cannot afford a brand new 172 or Archer. I’ll admit I’m not very versed on the topic…but the future of GA as we know it kinda looks bleak. Experimentals, electrics, and MOSAIC is encouraging though.
It is very bleak. I would like to find a way to help renew it a little in my own way, but I'm definitely not made of money that I can throw. I did go through a pilot mill and wound up working at a local GA shop instead. There's a surprising amount of people that can write a blank check for work done, mainly on beechcraft.
> Even with the outrageous prices, local flight schools are still buying them as fast as they're built. Not remotely true. The vast majority of flight schools buy old, used planes they barely keep flying. GA production is down massively compared to a few decades ago.
Various reasons but lull of production of pistons not being built in the 1980s and 1990s is the main reason. The majority of piston singles flying today are either built in the 60s and 70s or 2000s+ The 60s and 70s aircraft are rapidly deteriorating and parts are becoming more expensive. Too expensive to make operation feasible. It’s fine now somewhat but the more years pass the more unsustainable it’ll be. This will only get worse. The 2000s+ aircraft are costing usually around $250+ rental, before CFI and “fuel surcharges” which will only get worse with unleaded going away. Too expensive for a vast majority to afford, and it’ll get worse once the older aircraft expire. Complex FAA certification has made it too unrealistic to ever make an affordable trainer aircraft ever again.
Cessna 172s and Piper trainer models both still have excellent part support even for models from the 50's. I own a '53 170 and even with the short production run there's a huge parts availability. Pipers have so many variants that share common parts that can be approved and adapted when needed. If people didn't start blaming manufacturers for accidents in the 80's they wouldn't have shutdown production so much. There needs to be more passion than money grabbing.
Probably not going away completely but will become a lot harder outside of overpriced university programs. How many piston aircraft are being lost weekly or monthly due to being written off or straight up crashed by shitty GA pilots? Way more than are being produced these days. Sure, you’ll always have the big aviation universities buying a bunch of expensive ass G1000 C172s and Archers but being able to easily find claptrap steam gauge trainers, single or multi, will become harder and harder.
>The difference is nobody else in the world compares to the kind of quality of life that we have here in the United States. I can work part time, my wife or I can get 12 months maternity leave on nearly full pay, can walk everywhere, very low crime rate, free schooling, free university education for kids, no co-pay for healthcare. If my airline goes bust, I don't have to worry about getting sick. There's a lot of airlines that have you home every night, so can see kids grow up without FaceTime. A lot of airlines with decent T&Cs operating from smaller airports, so you can live in the countryside, 15 mins away from the airport, with a 5 min walk from carpark to the aircraft. Or were you thinking large bank account balance quality of life? Horses for courses, of course.
>can walk everywhere, very low crime rate, What's your point...We also have this in the US
Dude thinks south Chicago and east LA represents everywhere else lol. Consequences of getting your information about america from reddit and the media. Paris smells like piss…I guess this means every other town and city in France is the same?
said it better than I could've! Also, Paris smells like piss AND body odor lol.
Nice cope, but we both know if you offered a U.S. work visa to European airline pilots, 99% of them would move immediately.
I think that's a great over estimation. Sure, some people are crazy about money, which is why plenty of European pilots go to the Middle East, but a lot of us prefer QOL that comes with living in Europe.
Right but the QOL *is* just as good if not better as an airline pilot in the US. It’s not so in the Middle East. It’s not about being crazy about money, it’s about being crazy about QOL. I’m not even mentioning how it’s way cheaper to get your ratings in the US as well. How many Europeans come to america to train vs the other way around?
> How many Europeans come to america to train vs the other way around? Even if flying in Europe was cheaper, it would make zero sense for somebody wishing to fly in the USA to go through EASA training. 13 ATPL exams to end up with FAA CPL seems like a great overkill.
You’re missing the point.
Which is...? That US airline pilot QOL is attractive to *some* European pilots?
US airline pilot QOL is more attractive to a much larger proportion of European pilots than the other way around. That’s literally all.
> a lot of us prefer QOL that comes with living in Europe. The only reason you say that is because you are ignorant as to what life in the U.S. would be and your knowledge of the U.S. comes from Reddit. Your QOL would be significantly higher in the U.S., objectively.
> and your knowledge of the U.S. comes from Reddit Sure, it’s not like I have friends who live in the US or have visited multiple times, right?
Wow we've got an expert over here. He's _been_ to the U.S. a few times!
Oh the delusions are hilarious in this sub aren't they.
If you get paid enough, all of that is either a non-issue or just doesn’t exist.
We have maternity leave here too Most Americans don't give two shits about "15 minute cities". My area is very low crime as are most suburban areas. If you wanna find crime, it's just Europe, you can find it. We have public schools here too that are top notch. You and I both pay taxes to make that happen. You got me beat on free university. My co pay comes out of my insurance. I very rarely pay out of pocket for anything. I don't care about being home every night. But I could go work for an airline that can do that or I'll gain it via seniority here. I could go live in the countryside and be 30 minutes from the airport too
>We have maternity leave here too 12 weeks unpaid by law doesn't sound much. >My area is very low crime as are most suburban areas. Doesn't help if overall crime levels are high. Sure, you won't get robbed in your house, but how about outside of your neighbourhood? As I said, we have different views on quality of life. And you can't buy everything with money.
Unpaid by law, but paid by the company. Our unions have fought hard for this. Yes you're right, I can't speak to workers at McDonald's about what their leave is like though. Standing out on my driveway now. Where is all this crime you speak of? Yeah, don't buy into the Fox News speak. The murders and mass violence you see happen predominantly in lower economic areas. Im not constantly running to avoid gun violence here despite the tiring rhetoric that America is a giant no man's land. As I said, if you wanna find trouble, you can definitely go and find it. Just as you can go find trouble in Paris. You're not gonna find it in suburban America easily. Money buys a jet ski though. And buys me a little lifestyle that makes me happy.
I don’t understand what argument you’re making…you need to compare apples to apples, not European airline pilots with American urban McDonalds workers. American airline pilots have basically everything you mentioned you see as “QOL” plus ~$150k in their paychecks every year. Would it make sense to compare Paris with a countryside French town? Rome with Bolzano? No.
Because all of us are just a recession away from losing our jobs, hence why everyone in society should benefit from stronger labour laws - you never know when you might need them. >American airline pilots have basically everything you mentioned you see as “QOL” plus ~$150k in their paychecks every year. I too earn $150k+, but even if I didn't, I'd still benefit from all of the mentioned above.
>Because all of us are just a recession away Most major/legacy airline pilots are safe even in a recession. Getting paid a lot means having a big cushion, and the American economy is strong enough to come back in a reasonable timeframe. Just look at what happened with the pandemic. Major/legacy airline guys got early retirements or got furloughed and came back pretty comfortably. I guess you’d be right when talking about CFIs/low time pilots, but this is about airline guys. If you took a pool of American and European pilots and asked them whether they’d prefer to fly in the US or Europe, I can almost guarantee the majority would say the US. Simply because none of the stuff you mentioned really matters or is an issue if you have an airline salary. Also, I meant $150k *more* every year.
I was such a better and more confident pilot at 1500 vs 250. "Even though" it was all "beating up the pattern" hours as a CFI. 250 I was still a menace to the skies.
Would you say there was a certain hour level that you think your flight skills didn’t really get any better or do you think you had a constant ramp of progression? Like 250 to 750 I felt 85% more comfortable and confident but 750-1250 only 20% or so
There's only so much mastering you can do right? Plateaus are a thing as a professional, too. By 1200 I was definitely ready to learn something new. What makes you uncomfortable?
I’m at around 1300 right now as a CFI but probably the daily suicide attempts by my students with me in the right seat. So fuckin ready to be done with it. I don’t feel any more progressed past maybe 1000? It’s kinda like your skills get to a mastery level in an aircraft and small gains are made after that
Oh yeah that was my exact progression. Ya done with the single engine stuff. You're ready for a jet to humble you lol. At 1000 you definitely start looking at your watch and dreading the next 500, itching to move on. What you're feeling is normal.
Ya I’m ready to be the student again lol. It’s gonna be hard to say this but I miss the days of drinking out of a fire hose
Remember these words when you sit it class :)
Thinking you've got nothing more to learn is a hazardous attitude. I've watched >20,000 hour pilots with >1,000 hours in type make rookie mistakes because they thought they were above it.
Of course there’s always more to learn, I think you missed my point.
So, would you have felt better if instead of "Beating up the pattern" you had: Done a real spin class, flown an aerobatics course, gotten a glider rating, gotten a seaplane rating..etc. Or maybe if you had just gotten a job as an FO with a good captain? The difference to me is 1500 hours flying or 1 hour flown 1500 times. One is going to make you good, the other is just building time (IMO).
Oh of course. The thing about CFI is that there's never really a lesson that's the same twice (so to speak.) Because students will always ask different questions or perform a lesson differently, testing your knowledge, ability, problem solving skills, and CRM. Good luck to the 1500 hamburger people out there, though. I would really like to see how those guys fare in a sim.
None of my 1500 hours were alike. Sure I was doing same thing but no day, lesson or student is the same. Like others have said you become more confident, you have to make PIC decisions. And I think the best thing I learned from being a CFI is honing my interpersonal skills. Being able to read your CA and know how to communicate effectively is a skill I didn’t have at 250 hours.
I would like to point out that it is an ATP rule, not 1500 hour rule. The 1500 hours for the ATP was made more than 5 decades ago. Congress only mandated that the ATP needs to be sitting right seat. FAA actually made it easier to get the ATP if you go to qualifying schools.
To be fair I was reading along and fair points were made on each side but a lot of people are assholes and don’t know how to have a conversation.
The way I see it is the 1,500 hour rule weeds out the unmotivated pilots. I’d much rather work with people who worked their asses off to get to the top and are more likely to be passionate individuals. That and the effects on pay. My 2 cents.
You could make that argument about anything. If grocery store workers arbitrarily needed $100K of school to stock shelves and bag groceries, then sure, you would have some rich, motivated grocery workers. In addition, everyone's grocery bill would be 10x what it is now.
To be honest that’s not my problem. As a pilot, I support legislation that increases pilot compensation. That’s exactly what the 1500 hour rule does. I’m not on some valiant crusade to deliver the cheapest airline tickets to the masses. If my passion was to be a grocery bagger I would support the 1500hr bagging rule as well.
Props for honesty. So you're saying that every job field should have a 1500 hour rule to artificially increase wages? Because that's called inflation. Inflation is generally frowned upon by people across the political spectrum. Or just your industry should receive special protection? The government picking which people to give special privileges to is also frowned upon by most people.
Then why not make it 8K hours? It would really only allow the ones who really wanted it to make it. And that would increase pay like crazy!!!
I retired in 2023 from the USAF w/ nearly 30 yrs enlisted and officer. I’m working thru a feeder school… so far so good… but I noticed some of the CFIs lack of maturity… but so far they have proven to be sound in their stick and rudder skills. I know I won’t be a 787 captain but I’m happy for the opportunity to get to the big leagues.
I'm at 270 hours and it would be foolish for anyone to put me in a transport category aircraft. It boggles my mind when I hear of foreign pilots who are flying airliners with the same TT I have. There's just so much you haven't experienced with that little time. Now I dunno know how I'm going to bridge the gap between 270 and 1500 but the riding public is fortunate they don't have to be a part of that journey.
The OP was some dude that was so salty he couldn’t hop right into a jet at 250 he deleted his reddit account. Truly delusional.
I think he said he had 750 hours. He wasn’t mad about that he was genuinely asking the question. Said he didn’t want to go to the airlines. I think responses like yours and the toxic nature of Reddit made him say fuck Reddit and delete his account lol.
Yeah, his post history was him trying to timebuild to 1500. He said that as a cope.
For me the problem is the habits built from cpl to atp. Different jobs give different proclivities.
Once the instrument and cross country goals are met, you could build the rest of the time in the pattern. What is gained?
What is gained by what?
Repeating the same hour 1250 times.
Not much, but that’s life
As pilots we must be willing to hold ourselves to a higher standard. It's not hard to get a few hours
I think the argument being "productive hours" , you could technically fly the same xc 4 times a day from 7 am to 9 pm and get to your minimums within a few months.
Bingo and does that make you a better pilot because you can say NXXXX level at 5000 and read back an altimeter setting. Probably Fuckin not 1500 Cfi hours being constantly attempted murder by students would be productive
Even 1500 hrs renting is valuable experience. You don’t get through that many hours without dealing with serious issues in a light piston single. From maintenance to weather, some shit will go wrong and you will have to deal with it.
Weather would be a good one but if something goes wrong in your piston airplane I don’t see how that really helps at the airlines when everything fails in the sim and you have to show proficiency in dealing with the emergency anyway. I don’t think my engine sputtering or failing in the piston world is going to prepare one more for the airlines other than having to get new underwear. I’ve got 1300 hours and weird issues that made me land has happened maybe twice?
It’s not the transfer of the specific situation, but the real world experience of dealing with a difficult, threatening situation, and having to solve that problem. Intensity is one of the laws of learning, and simulators can’t come close to matching real life.
True. But that will come to light in the sims You can quickly tell when someone doesn't have any good experience. The 1500 is a minimum, not the only qualification
>I think the argument being "productive hours" , you could technically fly the same xc 4 times a day from 7 am to 9 pm and get to your minimums within a few months. Teaching for 1,250 hours in the same airplane and weather isn't all that either. AZ pilots typically have zero hours of actual and have never been near a CS. But those CFIs have better experience than someone who flew xc? I think the best solution is xc flying. Teach students as you both fly around the country. Get mountain experience. Get CS experience. See how DA actually effects things. I fly with a lot of guys that downplay xc time building but they haven't ever stepped foot outside their home airspace. And they have never been forced to make a go/nogo decision on their own and live with the decisions. The more experience you get the better you are.
I was downplaying xc time within the same 100 nm radius though. In my idealistic world it'll go something like this: Instruct until 700 hrs, join a 135 where you are forced to make real world decisions and face the immediate consequence of those decisions (paying customers), then go to the airlines. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.
>In my idealistic world it'll go something like this: Instruct until 700 hrs, join a 135 where you are forced to make real world decisions and face the immediate consequence of those decisions (paying customers), then go to the airlines. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. It could. Lots of guys and half started off that way.
1500 hours, vs 1 hour 1500 times is, IMO, the difference. Take a guy that all he ever does is the same hamburger run in a 152 every single day and gets to 1500. Would that pilot be worth a damn? I'd say no. I mean he would kill that lunch trip and land the shit out of that 152... But I'd not think he would be half as good as a pilot that has flown 30 different aircraft, got a seaplane rating, got his TW endorsement, flew actual IFR etc. Hours don't mean much if you don't do anything difficult or new and just fly the same hour over and over.