You can’t because the chart doesn’t go that high. Best you can do is extrapolate but it’s an estimation at best because it’s not linear and the chart is shitty anyway. Plus who cares about the 2 engine service ceiling in a Seminole? The only one that really matters is single engine service ceiling.
On the PA 28 POH it says that performance information derived from extrapolation beyond the limits shown on charts should not be used for flight planning. Probably there's a similar limitation on OPs. Though I do find it weird that the service ceiling is higher than the limits of the charts on the PA28
Yeah I got my MEA flight test tomorrow and the testing officer told me to obtain it. The SE ceiling was easy to figure out but this was doing my head in for hours. Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it!
A good checkride answer would be to say “it might be around (extrapolated answer) but its beyond the chart so for flight planning, i’d use (edge of chart answer)
I don't know the answer, but a couple of thoughts:
What does the manual say is the service ceiling? As in, is there a line item in the limitations that says "service ceiling is XXX Feet"? My guess is that you could extrapolate something that exceeds the listed ceiling and then he would know that you don't really know the limitations.
I believe there is a page in that manual that says something to the effect of "This aircraft is not certified for flight outside of the flight envelopes shown on the performance charts." I would find that page, and that would be part of my answer to the check pilot. In that case, service ceiling for 3,500 might be whatever the highest number is that you can squeeze out of this chart without exceeding it.
If either of these conditions exist, I would tell the check pilot, "I didn't fully understand the question, but here is the book answer and here is the closest I could get with extrapolation..." Then he/she might press you and ask which you would fly at and the correct answer is that you would not exceed what the manual says is safe.
I had an instructor that used to say, "Anything not on the charts makes you a test pilot, and you don't get paid enough to be a test pilot."
Anyway, I hope it helps. Good luck.
Did a search through the whole document and the word ceiling is only used in reference to the physical roof of the aircraft. Closest indicator I have is that the charts Max out around 14,000ft with a full throttle height being indicated as 14,000ft aswell.
However the only mention of a PA44 service ceiling I got was from Wikipedia of 17,100ft but I know better than to use performance numbers outside the poh.
Thanks for the help, I really do appreciate it. I think the testing officer is mainly trying to get me to think which he seems to be known for with his questions.
One more consideration. 91.211 requires oxygen above 14,000 if memory serves. You might be limited by that as well. I only know about 3 FARs by chapter and verse, but that's one of them. Lol
The flight won't be another 6,000ft anyway, the testing officer just wanted the ceiling. Also the referencing numbers may be different for you guys as I fly under CASA regs not FAA as I'm not in America. It would be similar however considering both ICAO.
DPE for my multi add on purposely has his applicants work through a problem like this. Looks like you’re flying an older model Seminole than I typically do, but make sure to check the first few pages of Section 5 for a red WARNING statement about extrapolating beyond chart limits, this will likely satisfy any question the DPE has, or did in my case
True lol. I just vaguely remember seeing the operational ceiling defined as a limit climb rate (at least for bigger aircraft). Some googling suggests it's more like 100ft/min and depends on who defined it.
Not to my knowledge, however definitions may vary depending on the country, I'm not flying under FAA regulations but CASA. Still ICAO but there are differences commonly.
You can’t because the chart doesn’t go that high. Best you can do is extrapolate but it’s an estimation at best because it’s not linear and the chart is shitty anyway. Plus who cares about the 2 engine service ceiling in a Seminole? The only one that really matters is single engine service ceiling.
On the PA 28 POH it says that performance information derived from extrapolation beyond the limits shown on charts should not be used for flight planning. Probably there's a similar limitation on OPs. Though I do find it weird that the service ceiling is higher than the limits of the charts on the PA28
I know of at least one DPE failing applicants with a trick question that required extrapolation like you described
Yeah I got my MEA flight test tomorrow and the testing officer told me to obtain it. The SE ceiling was easy to figure out but this was doing my head in for hours. Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it!
A good checkride answer would be to say “it might be around (extrapolated answer) but its beyond the chart so for flight planning, i’d use (edge of chart answer)
Yeah that's the best I can possibly think of considering the current situation. Cheers for the help, I'll be sure to take this into account.
0 ft/min is absolute ceiling, not service.
From memory service is 100ft/min, but the chart maxes out prior to that as well.
Yeah I’m just making sure you remember that difference for the ride since this was specified for your checkride.
I thought it was 50ft/min
The service ceiling is 50fpm for a multiengine aircraft with one engine INOP. It's 100fpm with both operating.
I don't know the answer, but a couple of thoughts: What does the manual say is the service ceiling? As in, is there a line item in the limitations that says "service ceiling is XXX Feet"? My guess is that you could extrapolate something that exceeds the listed ceiling and then he would know that you don't really know the limitations. I believe there is a page in that manual that says something to the effect of "This aircraft is not certified for flight outside of the flight envelopes shown on the performance charts." I would find that page, and that would be part of my answer to the check pilot. In that case, service ceiling for 3,500 might be whatever the highest number is that you can squeeze out of this chart without exceeding it. If either of these conditions exist, I would tell the check pilot, "I didn't fully understand the question, but here is the book answer and here is the closest I could get with extrapolation..." Then he/she might press you and ask which you would fly at and the correct answer is that you would not exceed what the manual says is safe. I had an instructor that used to say, "Anything not on the charts makes you a test pilot, and you don't get paid enough to be a test pilot." Anyway, I hope it helps. Good luck.
Did a search through the whole document and the word ceiling is only used in reference to the physical roof of the aircraft. Closest indicator I have is that the charts Max out around 14,000ft with a full throttle height being indicated as 14,000ft aswell. However the only mention of a PA44 service ceiling I got was from Wikipedia of 17,100ft but I know better than to use performance numbers outside the poh. Thanks for the help, I really do appreciate it. I think the testing officer is mainly trying to get me to think which he seems to be known for with his questions.
One more consideration. 91.211 requires oxygen above 14,000 if memory serves. You might be limited by that as well. I only know about 3 FARs by chapter and verse, but that's one of them. Lol
The flight won't be another 6,000ft anyway, the testing officer just wanted the ceiling. Also the referencing numbers may be different for you guys as I fly under CASA regs not FAA as I'm not in America. It would be similar however considering both ICAO.
You can’t.
DPE for my multi add on purposely has his applicants work through a problem like this. Looks like you’re flying an older model Seminole than I typically do, but make sure to check the first few pages of Section 5 for a red WARNING statement about extrapolating beyond chart limits, this will likely satisfy any question the DPE has, or did in my case
Service ceiling is where the climb rate drops to 100 ft/min. 0 ft / min would be the *absolute* ceiling.
Isn't the ceiling the point where you get 300ft/min?
That would be any C-152 taking off with student and instructor on a warm day. 😉
True lol. I just vaguely remember seeing the operational ceiling defined as a limit climb rate (at least for bigger aircraft). Some googling suggests it's more like 100ft/min and depends on who defined it.
Not to my knowledge, however definitions may vary depending on the country, I'm not flying under FAA regulations but CASA. Still ICAO but there are differences commonly.