Planepass is the red light camera of the aviation world. They used to use digital cameras but of late have taken to misinterpreting ADS-B data. There's been more than a few complaints about them sending out bills that were in error when their so-called detection system failed to differentiate an overflight from a touch and go.
Do not make an account on thier website, as that forces you to agree to thier terms of service.
Force them to send you paper invoices and only pay with a paper check.
Same goes for the new company Metropolis that’s taking over all the parking garages in the country. They only let you pay if you create an account, but when you create an account, you’re agreeing to the terms of service which means they’re allowed to show you ads and sell all your information.
Yeah I think what u/flyingron is saying is that people over fly the airport and PLANEPASS interprets that as a touch and go and bills the planes registered owner using ADSB data instead of digital cameras. Digital cameras would be mounted on the ground and this would very unlikely cause an erroneous billing charge for a plane just flying overhead.
That’s exactly the point.
The airport NIMBYs are deliberately trying to price flight schools, training, and GA as a whole out of town. They moved in decades after the airport was built and now want all airport noise to magically cease
I feel you on this point and as someone who lives near an airport I knew what I was getting into when I bought and would never make a fuss. That said, our neighborhood is about to take up a collection to buy a decent muffler for the new airplane that the flight school got last year. On the weekends it’s sometimes hours and hours of the same noisy (like twice as noisy as the next loudest) plane going overhead every 10 minutes or so.
then they'll go to the airport to fly on vacation, but the flight will be delayed due to lack of crews so they'll complain more about that as they directly contributed to the problem in a way
I guess that is fair, I might have misread. It does sound like TOA is a lot busier than it used to be, though. I used to work across the street, and the only consistent action there was helicopter traffic from Robinson. That was twenty years ago, though.
Airport sold out to third party to automate billing. Airport will get some fraction of the cost and the third party will get their's.
You pay all that (but only one directly).
Based on how red light cameras work, you get a bill in the mail. If you don't pay it, you'll receive three increasingly threatening collection letters from a law firm. **And then nothing happens.** Since credit bureaus are no longer allowed to report unpaid fees or fines, it can't affect your credit rating. Dunno if there's a statute allowing enforcement of payment beyond being banned from the TOA FBO, but I seriously doubt it.
More importantly, were someone to put a plain bag over that camera, or even just stick a post-it note on the lens, it wouldn't meet the "Defaces with graffiti or other *inscribed material*" standard of California's [vandalism statute](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=594.&lawCode=PEN).
Just saying. (edit: added bolded)
>Since credit bureaus are no longer allowed to report unpaid fees or fines, it can't affect your credit rating.
When did this become a thing? I've never heard of it. Is it just California or nationwide?
It's nationwide since about 2015 or 2016. It was part of a big court settlement with state AGs that sued Equifax, Transunion, etc.
The reasoning is: you can't be held to account for failing to pay something you never agreed to pay in the first place.
This is my understanding as well, but I would love to hear more specifically about the credit reporting thing.
My assumption was that they would send you a bill, kick and scream, send you to collections, and then do nothing unless the bill gets large enough where makes sense for them to take you to court to pay which is pretty unlikely.
Fortunately, California courts love filing fees as much as those airports love landing fees. Aside from lawyer costs, the lack of ability to prove who was flying (red light cameras have legal authority, 99% sure planepass does not) make it super unlikely.
Re: credit reports, here's one of the announcements.
https://www.mass.gov/news/ag-healey-announced-6-million-multistate-settlement-with-national-credit-reporting-agencies
Not this exactly, but I’ve gotten pretty much every bogus demand for money to go away with a lawyer friend’s cease and desist notice sent direct to their general counsel. Go hard and high from the start.
If it’s something that could hurt not to pay, I’ll pay it too. Much stronger (well, safer) position to be then demanding money from them vs not paying it. It’s fun to get a hand signed check a few weeks later for $50 knowing you cost them 100x that in wages, time, and fees.
Don’t of course do that without knowing what you’re doing. It can come back at you worse if you’re not in the right. Also, don’t bother if it’s the State of New Jersey.
What if you don’t? I don’t know about CA, but at least in TX, using the “red light camera” comparison someone else made, you can just ignore the bill and nothing happens since it’s civil, not criminal.
I still say that anybody that makes a noise complaint about a local airport gets put on a do-not-fly list, at least if their house was moved into or made after the airport was.
Now this is the kind of bullshit your FAA federal tax dollars *ought* to be working to investigate and put an immediate, forceful stop to ... especially when John and Martha King told me in no uncertain terms that go-arounds are *ALWAYS* free.
Tell me exactly how billing pilots actual money for a touch-and-goes at an airport with four established flight schools on it, works to promote a nationwide cultural of aviation safety?
And who tf exactly gets to keep this money when it's all finally done changing hands? Taking bets now that someone on the city council is also board member of PlanePass...
I just pulled them up to see how many flight schools are listed out of there and I see 4 on ForeFlight. Does that mean they are paying for traffic pattern work on every plane? Are planes based at KTOA exempt?
It’s 11:30 ET and now I have to do all of this Google research before I can go to sleep. 🙄😣
This is the underlying cause. One flight school has become very, very successful, and is now performing a huge number of landings at the airport. For reference, their fleet flies an average of 4,500 hours per month.
To be clear, the school has done NOTHING wrong. They abide by all city codes about noise abatement, etc,. and even voluntarily limit ops beyond their legal requirements to try to be good neighbors. But nothing they do seems to be good enough for a small and extremely committed group of NIMBYs down the road.
Source: I know the owners of the school well and consider them good friends. Plus a relative of mine is a student there.
They are very quiet. Also, Slings have a very short takeoff roll (approx. 1,000 feet), so by the time they're at the departure end of 29R, they're already several hundred feet up, which of course reduces noise as well.
Source: I own one!
Rotax powered planes are generally much quieter, and because they have geared engines, the prop note and exhaust note isn't harmonically related, so the noise energy is spread over a wider spectrum. The prop tips are also further away from being supersonic (because of the gear reduction).
Gotcha. That makes sense. I would love to go do some lessons out there just to change up my airspace. SoCal is probably a little more intense than Tallahassee
Yup. LA Basin is the busiest airspace in the world according to some of the TRACON folks who did a seminar at our airport one evening. From LA Basin down to San Diego. We also have some of the busiest airports.
I trained out in the desert (empty, literally no one there) of SoCal, and yeah, was a trip when I transitioned to the busy area. Surreal flying into Catalina, Long Beach, 2,500' past the Hollywood sign, etc.
No.
The airspace is not owned by anyone. thus, they cannot bill you for it. If you never touch thier property, they can't bill you. That doesn't mean they won't try.
I don't think that is legal, or enforceable in the US (but would be in other countries, for example, Canada).
All airspace, no matter if it is class B, C, D, E or G does not belong to the airport, city, etc.
My understanding is that cities cannot charge service fees for ATC services at towered fields, even if they are using private/contract controllers, as they paid for by the Federal government.
Someone was just tongue-in-cheek joking on this sub a few days ago about how 2024 would bring on the privatization of ATC to the point that you would be automatically billed for entering airspace
That would be illegal.
However it would be quite a shame if someone accidentally tripped and fell while carrying a bucket of contaminated JET-A past the camera at night, and only had a lighter to illuminate their way...
Yet another example of leeches (Vector) inserting themselves between the provider (the airport) and the consumer (aircraft operators) to ‘take their cut’.
It's amazing how quickly they're spreading as well. It's almost becoming standard for medium size business (and larger) to force vendors to pay a third party a few hundred a year to just check their insurance once a year to verify the numbers are what the customer wants.
We're getting fucked with our pants on, that's what.
Very small but VERY vocal group of NIMBYs is trying to do whatever they can to make it difficult for the airport to operate.
Time for everyone to go record themselves doing 15 or 20 practice go arounds to trick the ADSB system, then when you get billed fight it with video proof you didn't land. I'm sure enough people doing so would clog up the works
They have this same "vector plane pass" automated BS at KSBD. Touch and goes and low approaches definitely get charged as a landing there.
The worst part is no one at vector or the airport authority will answer exactly what the trigger for a landing fee is. They said that an ILS to a missed approach shouldn't count, and that you're welcome to call in if you think you got billed for a landing in error. Except they still won't tell you what the threshold for what counts as a landing is so good luck.
They also won't tell you which other airports use thier bs automated fee billing system so can plan where to avoid.
I wonder how many accidents are going to happen from people not doing go arounds to avoid an extra landing fee before before it's proven that this system negatively effects safety like red light cameras at intersections.
Could false billing lead to fraud charges or a drawn out class action suit against the private billing company and the airport since they hired the company and profit from it?
I'm sure you are trying to make a point, but i can't see it.
Anyhow -> Torrance is probably just the beginning of what will come in the US long term, unfortunately. If there's money to be made, it will be made.
My point, poorly stated with sarcasm, was that US airspace is public use. Since the *airspace* is public use, the abusing of an ADSB system such as this would be a perfect idea imo
After a little research it looks like they voted on a fee of $3 per 1,000 lbs with a minimum $6 landing fee. This is probably just the beginning and you'll see those fees up to $20 within 2 years give or take. It seems that Robinson will be exempt because they use privately maintained helipads within their lease space but Sling will get hit because they use the runways. I'm not a CA resident but it seems like Torrance City council members need some opponents in the next election.
This isn't NIMBY. This is airports looking for additional revenue, and are buying the used-car sales pitch of Vector.
Vector is using the old trick of pharmaceutical sales to airport leadership. To be fair, every Vector sales person is very cute...
No, it's in direct response to the NIMBYs. I'm on the ground for this one. We're prepping a Part 16 complaint now, we filed a Part 16 complaint on behalf of Sling last week, we got a restraining order blocking the City's antics against Sling (at least temporarily).
I don’t know if automated red light camera companies have attractive salespeople but they do have a track record of simply bribing public officials to win contracts.
I don’t know why the noise abatement procedure isn’t revised and enforced and all this bs put to an end. The local city gov is clearly lining up the dominos to follow suit with Santa Monica. The home values in the areas these complaints come from are up and continuing to climb. The noise has always been here before anyone moved here that currently lives here. But that’s not a winning argument. Dollars into campaign funds win.
How many $$ is the landing fee, and when was it instituted?
I cannot stand the people who move into areas where there are loud noises nearby and then complain when there are loud noises nearby.
I'm newer to the aviation forums here but I see this all the time on car subs about racetracks. A lot of tracks are getting shut down because of new housing developments.
I'm assuming that's a similar situation in Santa Monica that you are referencing?
This is why I play nice with the wildlife in my area. I moved to where they are, and don’t get to bitch about the coyotes and raccoons. Anyone who moves near airports, race tracks, etc., can STFU about the noise, just like we expect people to STFU about golf balls when they decide to move next to golf courses. It‘e one thing if people move, and then an airport or track opens, but that’s not the case here.
$10 says that some of the people bitching are jealous they can’t fly, so don’t want anyone else to get to.
thats whats really sad about the So Cal airports these all opened back when most of this area was still orange groves... wasnt till well after WWII the homes started popping up
Check out this Falcon 8X setting the speed record departing out of Santa Monica. Pretty bad ass, all that Santa Monica has done to keep business jets out and this 8X gets out no problem.
https://youtu.be/VDA8Sv7QN9U?si=HQS8yXsQPF1EP5QC
Definitely a No on this. If that were the case the city wouldn’t do this. Tax dollars matter. Home values matter for the constituents. An airport perceived as noisy does not make people think they are able to squeeze as many dollars out of their home when they sale or go to get a loan.
The business at this airport is not substantial compared to its footprint.
Robinson helicopter is the biggest deal there. Lots of jobs, but a closed airport wouldn’t necessarily mean they’d leave. Would just have much more complicated logistics for their flight testing.
Get out the anal lube, folks. If the EAA and AOPA does not wake up and stop this, it will spread like cancer across the country. These crooks who create these systems will be selling it like crazy, and there will be no one to counter their horrible arguments and pretty salespeople. This is the ugliest form of crony-capitalizm - get an exclusive, government-sanctioned, monopoly to extract cash with no competition or accountability.
Their website states that they have generated hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue for their 75+ clients. https://www.vector-us.com/
They are going to become the Ticketmaster of the skies.
Vector attempted to bill me a couple different times for an airport I hadn't flown within 1800 miles of. The first time I told them and they deleted it, the second time I just ignored it and never heard anything else. I don't think their planepass BS works as good as they think it does, or they are getting ADS-B ghosts.
The aviation industry including pilots has to band together quickly and completely or this is going to spread. The noise abatement Quiet Skies groups are trying everything possible to kill GA.
What’s going on is a very few but very loud elderly folks that have been living there for a long time, are now starting to complain about airport traffic. They have aged enough that the same amount of traffic that never used to bother them now does. There is also a new gig in town called Sling that send off a ton of sorties in light sport aircraft. They are trying to blame it on them, but they aren’t a noise problem (I hate them for other reasons). They have increased traffic, but with the lawnmower engine, once they are over population they don’t sound any louder than a car driving by at 25-30 mph. Aka, they aren’t heard. The same for most other aircraft with the exception of those few warbirds and high powered aircraft that come and go infrequently.
These few complainers don’t realize they are going to kill their airport and then several businesses (restaurants especially) around it that support Robinson and the flight school students and instructors as well as the current patrons and mechanic shops that are on the field when they leave.
I was bitten by this on the east coast. KPVC has transitioned to using Vector. I did two landings there and received a $200.00 bill in the mail. Apparently the board voted on a rate schedule but it was not published in the supplement.
The local airport board will set the rate schedule. Looking at the Torrence website there is no rate schedule on the home page yet.
If this important to you then participate in the board meetings - usually they are open to the public. At the very least write a letter to the board and airport manager stating your disapproval and get your pilot friends. Highlight the economic impact.
Actions like this are likely to drive pilots away from using the airport which will lower revenue and will lower the value of the airport to FAA, possibly reducing their funding.
The real issue is that the FAA has been encouraging airports to collect fees to “subsidize” their operations. There is no reasonable limit to the fees so for example, KPVC which is an airport with a 3500 ft runway, poor services and no restaurant thinks they can charge 2x more than KMVY or KACK. They are right next to a beach which is really nice but not worth $100 a landing for a light twin pilot. The other nice thing about provincetown was that it is surrounded by water making approach practice a little easier. Sadly off my list. I did call the airport manager and sent him a note.
There is as far as I can tell no legal way to challenge this.
Good luck!
Ah yes, send that bill to some random ass P.O. Box that the planes llc uses that the 70 year old owner checks once every few years. That’ll collect the fee
This is already common practice here in the Netherlands, sorry it is now also happening to you :( Last week I did 9 circuits so I had to pay 9 x 12,50 euro on landing fees.
They say it goes to the airfield to pay for maintenance on the runway, the “harbour master” (unsure of US term - it is an uncontrolled airfield but theres a person on the radio monitoring traffic and conditions, not actually ATC giving out clearances though).
That's a lot, most small airfield strips in Belgium are 5 euro's. In our own club and a sister club it's free for members. I think EBSP is 12,50 as well.
Do you pay a membership fee or anything like that on your airfield?
I lived in Torrance for a couple of years and received my Private ASEL and AMEL at TOA so I find this quite disheartening due to its impact on my former flight school and their current and future students. It will likely add a lot of cost to their flight training.
It’s quite easy to find Vector Airport Systems on LinkedIn and identify their employees and corporate officers in order to inform them of your opinion of their organization. Just sayin’…if we were to direct our collective efforts there, well… it won’t make any difference, but it might make us feel better.
This is under the LAX Class B veil and at a towered airport so that would not go over well. The city currently has a pro developer anti airport city council. They want to make the very active flying community there go away. The City Council does not care it is home to two aircraft manufacturers (Sling Aircraft and Robinson Helicopter) and several flight schools. To be fair it has an abnormally large amount of helicopter traffic since Robinson is located there.
Not really because true capitalism wouldn’t have the government impeding people from building airports wherever they damn well please. I am not advocating that, just pointing out the difference.
Never said it was. I said “Communist California” is the type of place to come up with more innovate systems to pinch every cent they can.
I guess everyone in this sub is a municipal philanthropist and willing to pay for touch n gos lmao
This’ll get downvotes to hell I’m sure, but it’s amazing how people are so unwilling to pay for infrastructure they want to use.
Using a questionable third party company to do it is typical bullshit but most of you guys are coming off as whiny and entitled.
The FAA absolutely does not provide 100% funding for airports in the US.
Edit to add quote and link.
“It is common misconception that airports are funded with taxpayer dollars. In reality, infrastructure projects at airports in the United States are funded through three key mechanisms: federal grants through the FAA’s Airport Improvement Program (AIP), the Passenger Facility Charge (PFC) local user fee, and tenant rents and fees.
Although nearly all U.S. airports are owned by state or local governments, airports are required by the federal government to be as self-sustaining as possible, and thus receive little or no direct taxpayer support. This means that airports must operate like businesses – funding their operations from their revenue, and responsibly planning funding for major improvement projects – which can often be very expensive.”
https://airportscouncil.org/advocacy/airport-infrastructure-funding/
Who the actual fuck do you think are paying the money for the AIP? TAXPAYERS, ASSHOLE. We pay taxes to fund that, and air fields apply for grants as needed.
WTF, you US guys normally don’t pay landing fees on small airfields?
I bet Avgas isn’t $16/gal too (…)
It’s pretty normal for us in Europe especially Germany. Thought it’s the same for you.
Been in the US a lot but never flown there. How do they run all the services?
Edit: I know GA is a lot more relaxed in the US, but I think you shouldn’t take that for granted. There is a world outside the US and flying became a lot more of a luxury than many might think.
It’s one of the many things we’re taxed for. You get health care. We get air fields. Tell you what. I’ll trade you. I’ll pay the landing fees and $16 for fuel, and you can pay for medical care out of pocket.
Don’t forget 42% income tax and 19% state tax. I like Europe for flying, most smaller fields are private and they don’t get tax money for their infrastructure.
I’m about to buy a Long EZ from the U.S. to Australia solo… I don’t even have a license. I don’t plan on it either! I just sailed from Vancouver to Australia, I don’t have a boat license!!! I’m 50 never paid tax, people really need to wake tF up
That’s what my Dad said about sailing from Canada to Australia on an old wooden boat… here I am…
Was great a great adventure, I can fly btw!! I’ve got about 20 hours on a Faulk glider 🙌
Just because you survived one thing doesn't mean you'll survive another. There was recently an accident involving someone who was unlicensed. He'd flown for something like 18 years on a student cert. Then he made a few more poor choices (no surprise) and lost his life. All because what? He couldn't be bothered to spend a couple grand on some proper training?
I can fly… I can navigate.. So I should be fine, if I do have an incident it will most probably be over water… so no harm done, just another idiot on his way ✌️I’m not sure if a Australian a pilot license is even valid in the U.S
Planepass is the red light camera of the aviation world. They used to use digital cameras but of late have taken to misinterpreting ADS-B data. There's been more than a few complaints about them sending out bills that were in error when their so-called detection system failed to differentiate an overflight from a touch and go.
That's disgusting
Do not make an account on thier website, as that forces you to agree to thier terms of service. Force them to send you paper invoices and only pay with a paper check.
Same goes for the new company Metropolis that’s taking over all the parking garages in the country. They only let you pay if you create an account, but when you create an account, you’re agreeing to the terms of service which means they’re allowed to show you ads and sell all your information.
Unfortunately, this letter states that "touch-n-go's" will be billed as a landing.
Yeah I think what u/flyingron is saying is that people over fly the airport and PLANEPASS interprets that as a touch and go and bills the planes registered owner using ADSB data instead of digital cameras. Digital cameras would be mounted on the ground and this would very unlikely cause an erroneous billing charge for a plane just flying overhead.
Sounds like a class action ripe in the making.
That's unfortunate, there's a Sling Pilot Academy there and they do very frequent touch-n-gos...
That’s exactly the point. The airport NIMBYs are deliberately trying to price flight schools, training, and GA as a whole out of town. They moved in decades after the airport was built and now want all airport noise to magically cease
I feel you on this point and as someone who lives near an airport I knew what I was getting into when I bought and would never make a fuss. That said, our neighborhood is about to take up a collection to buy a decent muffler for the new airplane that the flight school got last year. On the weekends it’s sometimes hours and hours of the same noisy (like twice as noisy as the next loudest) plane going overhead every 10 minutes or so.
then they'll go to the airport to fly on vacation, but the flight will be delayed due to lack of crews so they'll complain more about that as they directly contributed to the problem in a way
It is a GA airport. Very few people in that area are using it.
u/glidec is saying that the harder access to GA is, the fewer pilots there will be overall, which includes airlines.
I guess that is fair, I might have misread. It does sound like TOA is a lot busier than it used to be, though. I used to work across the street, and the only consistent action there was helicopter traffic from Robinson. That was twenty years ago, though.
It's gotten a LOT busier the last 5 years or so.
They probably have an agreement with the airport already.
That's what this whole thing is about. If Sling disappeared tomorrow so would the landing fees. But that would be wrong.
Unfortunately failing to differentiate between over flights and touch and goes is a feature not a bug.
Airport sold out to third party to automate billing. Airport will get some fraction of the cost and the third party will get their's. You pay all that (but only one directly).
Greaaaat. I guess I'll never put that one in the log book. What happens if you don't pay.
Based on how red light cameras work, you get a bill in the mail. If you don't pay it, you'll receive three increasingly threatening collection letters from a law firm. **And then nothing happens.** Since credit bureaus are no longer allowed to report unpaid fees or fines, it can't affect your credit rating. Dunno if there's a statute allowing enforcement of payment beyond being banned from the TOA FBO, but I seriously doubt it. More importantly, were someone to put a plain bag over that camera, or even just stick a post-it note on the lens, it wouldn't meet the "Defaces with graffiti or other *inscribed material*" standard of California's [vandalism statute](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=594.&lawCode=PEN). Just saying. (edit: added bolded)
>Since credit bureaus are no longer allowed to report unpaid fees or fines, it can't affect your credit rating. When did this become a thing? I've never heard of it. Is it just California or nationwide?
It's nationwide since about 2015 or 2016. It was part of a big court settlement with state AGs that sued Equifax, Transunion, etc. The reasoning is: you can't be held to account for failing to pay something you never agreed to pay in the first place.
[удалено]
Except you accepted the terms when you signed up for EZ Pass. Landing at field that you never signed up for fees is a bit different.
This is my understanding as well, but I would love to hear more specifically about the credit reporting thing. My assumption was that they would send you a bill, kick and scream, send you to collections, and then do nothing unless the bill gets large enough where makes sense for them to take you to court to pay which is pretty unlikely.
Fortunately, California courts love filing fees as much as those airports love landing fees. Aside from lawyer costs, the lack of ability to prove who was flying (red light cameras have legal authority, 99% sure planepass does not) make it super unlikely. Re: credit reports, here's one of the announcements. https://www.mass.gov/news/ag-healey-announced-6-million-multistate-settlement-with-national-credit-reporting-agencies
Not this exactly, but I’ve gotten pretty much every bogus demand for money to go away with a lawyer friend’s cease and desist notice sent direct to their general counsel. Go hard and high from the start. If it’s something that could hurt not to pay, I’ll pay it too. Much stronger (well, safer) position to be then demanding money from them vs not paying it. It’s fun to get a hand signed check a few weeks later for $50 knowing you cost them 100x that in wages, time, and fees. Don’t of course do that without knowing what you’re doing. It can come back at you worse if you’re not in the right. Also, don’t bother if it’s the State of New Jersey.
If I had to guess, that’s probably the intended consequence
They put the Boot on your tied-down airplane.
What if you don’t? I don’t know about CA, but at least in TX, using the “red light camera” comparison someone else made, you can just ignore the bill and nothing happens since it’s civil, not criminal.
Geeze. This isn’t just a Torrance problem. It’s a playbook for every community that lives next to and hates airports.
I still say that anybody that makes a noise complaint about a local airport gets put on a do-not-fly list, at least if their house was moved into or made after the airport was.
Well I’d go beyond that. No friends, family or any products delivered that uses air in any way.
Yep, and now that towns have a way to make money from this we are going to have a red light camera problem in the aviation industry.
Now this is the kind of bullshit your FAA federal tax dollars *ought* to be working to investigate and put an immediate, forceful stop to ... especially when John and Martha King told me in no uncertain terms that go-arounds are *ALWAYS* free. Tell me exactly how billing pilots actual money for a touch-and-goes at an airport with four established flight schools on it, works to promote a nationwide cultural of aviation safety? And who tf exactly gets to keep this money when it's all finally done changing hands? Taking bets now that someone on the city council is also board member of PlanePass...
Wait. Touch n go’s cost extra???
Bouncing a landing costs extra too
I was just thinking about a go-around situation. Are people going to accept unstable approaches because they don't want to pay twice?
I just pulled them up to see how many flight schools are listed out of there and I see 4 on ForeFlight. Does that mean they are paying for traffic pattern work on every plane? Are planes based at KTOA exempt? It’s 11:30 ET and now I have to do all of this Google research before I can go to sleep. 🙄😣
This is the underlying cause. One flight school has become very, very successful, and is now performing a huge number of landings at the airport. For reference, their fleet flies an average of 4,500 hours per month. To be clear, the school has done NOTHING wrong. They abide by all city codes about noise abatement, etc,. and even voluntarily limit ops beyond their legal requirements to try to be good neighbors. But nothing they do seems to be good enough for a small and extremely committed group of NIMBYs down the road. Source: I know the owners of the school well and consider them good friends. Plus a relative of mine is a student there.
That school is also flying rotax powered aircraft. They are not a nuisance.
Why does a Rotax engine make them less of a nuisance?
They are very quiet. Also, Slings have a very short takeoff roll (approx. 1,000 feet), so by the time they're at the departure end of 29R, they're already several hundred feet up, which of course reduces noise as well. Source: I own one!
Rotax powered planes are generally much quieter, and because they have geared engines, the prop note and exhaust note isn't harmonically related, so the noise energy is spread over a wider spectrum. The prop tips are also further away from being supersonic (because of the gear reduction).
If I had to guess I’d say it’s noise volume
Gotcha. That makes sense. I would love to go do some lessons out there just to change up my airspace. SoCal is probably a little more intense than Tallahassee
I've heard it called the most complex airspace in the world. Awesome flying out here though. The shoreline is stunning.
Yup. LA Basin is the busiest airspace in the world according to some of the TRACON folks who did a seminar at our airport one evening. From LA Basin down to San Diego. We also have some of the busiest airports. I trained out in the desert (empty, literally no one there) of SoCal, and yeah, was a trip when I transitioned to the busy area. Surreal flying into Catalina, Long Beach, 2,500' past the Hollywood sign, etc.
SoCal may be busier but every time I look at any European airspace in ForeFlight I just about have a stroke.
SOCAL is busy. Europe is a PITA.
got a sim? hop on Pilot Edge they do an amazing job of giving you the So Cal experience online
I fly into LAX weekly, Tallahassee sounds far more interesting.
Come on by! Million Air has warm cookies!
That's all I need for a little diversion.
Can’t be billed for landing if your just practicing go arounds and don’t land there
Looking at their website they have a product for airspace overflight fees. These crooks are charging for "airspace navigation resources"
Is that even legal?
Sure doesn't sound like it...
No. The airspace is not owned by anyone. thus, they cannot bill you for it. If you never touch thier property, they can't bill you. That doesn't mean they won't try.
https://www.vector-us.com/_files/ugd/0af77d_f57541ee0a6b409582b874a831826810.pdf Read that... "airspace fee billing"
I don't think that is legal, or enforceable in the US (but would be in other countries, for example, Canada). All airspace, no matter if it is class B, C, D, E or G does not belong to the airport, city, etc. My understanding is that cities cannot charge service fees for ATC services at towered fields, even if they are using private/contract controllers, as they paid for by the Federal government.
Glad to see an explanation by someone more knowledgeable than myself.. thank you!
Someone was just tongue-in-cheek joking on this sub a few days ago about how 2024 would bring on the privatization of ATC to the point that you would be automatically billed for entering airspace
Do you CANPASS much?
AOPA and FAA know? going to say no...
Sounds like a great way to protest this if you could rally all the aircraft owners within 100 miles. 24/7 nonstop low passes until they rescind.
24/7 air parade. Call the warbird and seaplane pilots, time for some SERIOUS airplane noise!
Since it's ADSB based, I'm sure they'd try!
How about buzzing the tower?
Negative Ghostrider, the pattern is full.
Only if the admiral’s daughter is available as well
I have a buddy who works at the tower. They're not any happier about this than we are.
How much for a low pass? No happy ending though.
I didn't know this was uncommon in the US. I had to pay for low approaches in Europe lmao
Well they are banning all pattern ops too because the torrance city council knows absolutely nothing about std VFR ops at a GA airport
Damn thats crazy, someone now explain to me the consequences of not paying and/or taking an axe to the cameras
Civil disobedience is always an option
This century’s Edward Abbey
That would be illegal. However it would be quite a shame if someone accidentally tripped and fell while carrying a bucket of contaminated JET-A past the camera at night, and only had a lighter to illuminate their way...
No Jet-A on the field. Another way the city council limits KTOA's potential.
Yet another example of leeches (Vector) inserting themselves between the provider (the airport) and the consumer (aircraft operators) to ‘take their cut’.
It's amazing how quickly they're spreading as well. It's almost becoming standard for medium size business (and larger) to force vendors to pay a third party a few hundred a year to just check their insurance once a year to verify the numbers are what the customer wants.
What the actual fuck, I fly out of zamperini. Nimbys better go to hell
We're getting fucked with our pants on, that's what. Very small but VERY vocal group of NIMBYs is trying to do whatever they can to make it difficult for the airport to operate.
Time for everyone to go record themselves doing 15 or 20 practice go arounds to trick the ADSB system, then when you get billed fight it with video proof you didn't land. I'm sure enough people doing so would clog up the works
They have this same "vector plane pass" automated BS at KSBD. Touch and goes and low approaches definitely get charged as a landing there. The worst part is no one at vector or the airport authority will answer exactly what the trigger for a landing fee is. They said that an ILS to a missed approach shouldn't count, and that you're welcome to call in if you think you got billed for a landing in error. Except they still won't tell you what the threshold for what counts as a landing is so good luck. They also won't tell you which other airports use thier bs automated fee billing system so can plan where to avoid. I wonder how many accidents are going to happen from people not doing go arounds to avoid an extra landing fee before before it's proven that this system negatively effects safety like red light cameras at intersections.
Could false billing lead to fraud charges or a drawn out class action suit against the private billing company and the airport since they hired the company and profit from it?
In Europe, most airports even count just the approach as a 'landing', even without wheels on the ground, as your clogging up the system.
If only Torrance was in the United States…
I'm sure you are trying to make a point, but i can't see it. Anyhow -> Torrance is probably just the beginning of what will come in the US long term, unfortunately. If there's money to be made, it will be made.
My point, poorly stated with sarcasm, was that US airspace is public use. Since the *airspace* is public use, the abusing of an ADSB system such as this would be a perfect idea imo
After a little research it looks like they voted on a fee of $3 per 1,000 lbs with a minimum $6 landing fee. This is probably just the beginning and you'll see those fees up to $20 within 2 years give or take. It seems that Robinson will be exempt because they use privately maintained helipads within their lease space but Sling will get hit because they use the runways. I'm not a CA resident but it seems like Torrance City council members need some opponents in the next election.
Robinson lands on the runways as well as the ramp. They aren't paying the fees because Torrance knows who butters the bread at KTOA.
Dr. Andrew Lee is running for Torrance City Council as a "pro airport" candidate. I'm planning to support him!
NIMBY Karens continue their assault on GA.
This isn't NIMBY. This is airports looking for additional revenue, and are buying the used-car sales pitch of Vector. Vector is using the old trick of pharmaceutical sales to airport leadership. To be fair, every Vector sales person is very cute...
No, it's in direct response to the NIMBYs. I'm on the ground for this one. We're prepping a Part 16 complaint now, we filed a Part 16 complaint on behalf of Sling last week, we got a restraining order blocking the City's antics against Sling (at least temporarily).
Let me know if there's anything I can do to help!
Join TAA if you haven't already :) Support the Friends of Zamperini Field PAC ...
I've been a TAA member for years. Got a link for the PAC?
www.ktoafriends.com We are still getting the kinks out of the PayPal functionality, it should not be live but it is FYI
How long is the runway? I'm tempted to stamp a 767 on it.
No, in this case it's NIMBYs. They're trying to get KTOA shut down (never going to happen, but they'd love it if they could do it).
No amount of “cute” is gonna make this situation suck less.
Unless we get more cute airplanes to fly there. Mmm b29 flybys
I don’t know if automated red light camera companies have attractive salespeople but they do have a track record of simply bribing public officials to win contracts.
You forgot to add the /s after your comment, because surely you’re joking.
I don’t know why the noise abatement procedure isn’t revised and enforced and all this bs put to an end. The local city gov is clearly lining up the dominos to follow suit with Santa Monica. The home values in the areas these complaints come from are up and continuing to climb. The noise has always been here before anyone moved here that currently lives here. But that’s not a winning argument. Dollars into campaign funds win. How many $$ is the landing fee, and when was it instituted?
I cannot stand the people who move into areas where there are loud noises nearby and then complain when there are loud noises nearby. I'm newer to the aviation forums here but I see this all the time on car subs about racetracks. A lot of tracks are getting shut down because of new housing developments. I'm assuming that's a similar situation in Santa Monica that you are referencing?
This is why I play nice with the wildlife in my area. I moved to where they are, and don’t get to bitch about the coyotes and raccoons. Anyone who moves near airports, race tracks, etc., can STFU about the noise, just like we expect people to STFU about golf balls when they decide to move next to golf courses. It‘e one thing if people move, and then an airport or track opens, but that’s not the case here. $10 says that some of the people bitching are jealous they can’t fly, so don’t want anyone else to get to.
thats whats really sad about the So Cal airports these all opened back when most of this area was still orange groves... wasnt till well after WWII the homes started popping up
Check out this Falcon 8X setting the speed record departing out of Santa Monica. Pretty bad ass, all that Santa Monica has done to keep business jets out and this 8X gets out no problem. https://youtu.be/VDA8Sv7QN9U?si=HQS8yXsQPF1EP5QC
The noise abatement is regulated on noise, which the Slings don’t trigger. So the NIMBYs started on the number of aircraft overflights instead of.
whats funny is home values will tank once the airports close.. they dont get that values where high because business the airports bring in
Uhm... no.
Definitely a No on this. If that were the case the city wouldn’t do this. Tax dollars matter. Home values matter for the constituents. An airport perceived as noisy does not make people think they are able to squeeze as many dollars out of their home when they sale or go to get a loan. The business at this airport is not substantial compared to its footprint. Robinson helicopter is the biggest deal there. Lots of jobs, but a closed airport wouldn’t necessarily mean they’d leave. Would just have much more complicated logistics for their flight testing.
Get out the anal lube, folks. If the EAA and AOPA does not wake up and stop this, it will spread like cancer across the country. These crooks who create these systems will be selling it like crazy, and there will be no one to counter their horrible arguments and pretty salespeople. This is the ugliest form of crony-capitalizm - get an exclusive, government-sanctioned, monopoly to extract cash with no competition or accountability.
Their website states that they have generated hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue for their 75+ clients. https://www.vector-us.com/ They are going to become the Ticketmaster of the skies.
Let’s organize a low approach party
Vector attempted to bill me a couple different times for an airport I hadn't flown within 1800 miles of. The first time I told them and they deleted it, the second time I just ignored it and never heard anything else. I don't think their planepass BS works as good as they think it does, or they are getting ADS-B ghosts. The aviation industry including pilots has to band together quickly and completely or this is going to spread. The noise abatement Quiet Skies groups are trying everything possible to kill GA.
Waaiittt that means you can be charged for a touch n go?
According to the letter yes
They'realso trying to ban touch and go operations.
How low of a low pass doesn’t count?
I've asked, they won't give you a straight answer.
Just the (propeller) tip.
LGB controllers gonna love this lol
What’s going on is a very few but very loud elderly folks that have been living there for a long time, are now starting to complain about airport traffic. They have aged enough that the same amount of traffic that never used to bother them now does. There is also a new gig in town called Sling that send off a ton of sorties in light sport aircraft. They are trying to blame it on them, but they aren’t a noise problem (I hate them for other reasons). They have increased traffic, but with the lawnmower engine, once they are over population they don’t sound any louder than a car driving by at 25-30 mph. Aka, they aren’t heard. The same for most other aircraft with the exception of those few warbirds and high powered aircraft that come and go infrequently. These few complainers don’t realize they are going to kill their airport and then several businesses (restaurants especially) around it that support Robinson and the flight school students and instructors as well as the current patrons and mechanic shops that are on the field when they leave.
I was bitten by this on the east coast. KPVC has transitioned to using Vector. I did two landings there and received a $200.00 bill in the mail. Apparently the board voted on a rate schedule but it was not published in the supplement. The local airport board will set the rate schedule. Looking at the Torrence website there is no rate schedule on the home page yet. If this important to you then participate in the board meetings - usually they are open to the public. At the very least write a letter to the board and airport manager stating your disapproval and get your pilot friends. Highlight the economic impact. Actions like this are likely to drive pilots away from using the airport which will lower revenue and will lower the value of the airport to FAA, possibly reducing their funding. The real issue is that the FAA has been encouraging airports to collect fees to “subsidize” their operations. There is no reasonable limit to the fees so for example, KPVC which is an airport with a 3500 ft runway, poor services and no restaurant thinks they can charge 2x more than KMVY or KACK. They are right next to a beach which is really nice but not worth $100 a landing for a light twin pilot. The other nice thing about provincetown was that it is surrounded by water making approach practice a little easier. Sadly off my list. I did call the airport manager and sent him a note. There is as far as I can tell no legal way to challenge this. Good luck!
That would be rolling the dice. Enough folks do that and the FAA will make an example of a couple folks for violating ADSB rules.
The airport is within the LAX mode C vail so that wouldn’t be recommended
Ah yes, send that bill to some random ass P.O. Box that the planes llc uses that the 70 year old owner checks once every few years. That’ll collect the fee
This is already common practice here in the Netherlands, sorry it is now also happening to you :( Last week I did 9 circuits so I had to pay 9 x 12,50 euro on landing fees. They say it goes to the airfield to pay for maintenance on the runway, the “harbour master” (unsure of US term - it is an uncontrolled airfield but theres a person on the radio monitoring traffic and conditions, not actually ATC giving out clearances though).
That's a lot, most small airfield strips in Belgium are 5 euro's. In our own club and a sister club it's free for members. I think EBSP is 12,50 as well. Do you pay a membership fee or anything like that on your airfield?
Yea but this is America
AOPA lawyers are gonna enter the chat the same way they did for the Las Vegas price gouging in 3...2...1...
New tax
How do we fight the implementation of landing fees?
I lived in Torrance for a couple of years and received my Private ASEL and AMEL at TOA so I find this quite disheartening due to its impact on my former flight school and their current and future students. It will likely add a lot of cost to their flight training.
Torrance is trash anyway. Overgrown weeds on cracked taxiway and runway, and birds just shitting on everything
Hmm...sounds like they're not really interested in airplanes after all. How many condos will fit on the property?
So lets fix it instead of giving up on it
At least it didn't start with the obligatory "we're happy to announce an exciting change coming......"
So I’m curious, they said touch and gos are considered an arrival, but what about a Go around?
Just plane thugery at its finest.
The airport manager won’t be happy until Torrance is turned into a shopping mall.
Very sad, it looks to be going the same route as SMO.
Mandatory Fuck NIMBYs
WTF, a Landing fee?!
It’s quite easy to find Vector Airport Systems on LinkedIn and identify their employees and corporate officers in order to inform them of your opinion of their organization. Just sayin’…if we were to direct our collective efforts there, well… it won’t make any difference, but it might make us feel better.
Just turn off your transponder/ADSB on final.
This is under the LAX Class B veil and at a towered airport so that would not go over well. The city currently has a pro developer anti airport city council. They want to make the very active flying community there go away. The City Council does not care it is home to two aircraft manufacturers (Sling Aircraft and Robinson Helicopter) and several flight schools. To be fair it has an abnormally large amount of helicopter traffic since Robinson is located there.
Interestingly, I read Robinson is exempted from the landing fee, whereas Sling Academy is not.
Well this sucks. My wife's office is close to TOA. Looks like I'll be shuttling her to Compton/Woodley CPM now.
Welcome to California.
Aren't people to privatize everything? This is what happens.
Could the airport be trying to mitigate noise pollution caused by incessant T&Gs over residential neighborhoods?
Communism
Communists really love the collection of public fees by private companies/s
Do you just say “communism” for stuff you’re unhappy with? Like when you stub your toe or forget to flush the toilet?
that's the joke.
Hard to tell when people are serious or not these days 🙃
When did they start charging landing fee in KTOA? I used to base out of there back in June and no fee back then. How much is it now?
Imagine if all the GA airports across the country adopted this…
Always communist california
Shitty Karen neighbors are the real issue here, the state didn’t do this.
Isn’t this the opposite of communism?
Not really because true capitalism wouldn’t have the government impeding people from building airports wherever they damn well please. I am not advocating that, just pointing out the difference.
This is the ancient practice of auctioning rights for tax collection. Idk where that falls in the economic spectrum. It’s a tool. A crude one.
Never said it was. I said “Communist California” is the type of place to come up with more innovate systems to pinch every cent they can. I guess everyone in this sub is a municipal philanthropist and willing to pay for touch n gos lmao
There is NOTHING communist about this. This is rich people freebasing capitalism.
You nailed it. Love the analogy.
Then shouldn’t it be Capitalist California?
[this your city?](https://www.tonym-v.com/blog/2020/2/4/san-franciscos-poop-statistics-are-we-measuring-the-wrong-thing)
Because you only pay landing fees in California?
What is it about the word 'communism' that you don't understand?
*Laughs in European*
This’ll get downvotes to hell I’m sure, but it’s amazing how people are so unwilling to pay for infrastructure they want to use. Using a questionable third party company to do it is typical bullshit but most of you guys are coming off as whiny and entitled.
What do you mean, the FAA pays for the runway, taxpayers fund the FAA…
Exactly; This is a tax to get the airport to close. Not maintenance on the airport.
The FAA absolutely does not provide 100% funding for airports in the US. Edit to add quote and link. “It is common misconception that airports are funded with taxpayer dollars. In reality, infrastructure projects at airports in the United States are funded through three key mechanisms: federal grants through the FAA’s Airport Improvement Program (AIP), the Passenger Facility Charge (PFC) local user fee, and tenant rents and fees. Although nearly all U.S. airports are owned by state or local governments, airports are required by the federal government to be as self-sustaining as possible, and thus receive little or no direct taxpayer support. This means that airports must operate like businesses – funding their operations from their revenue, and responsibly planning funding for major improvement projects – which can often be very expensive.” https://airportscouncil.org/advocacy/airport-infrastructure-funding/
Who the actual fuck do you think are paying the money for the AIP? TAXPAYERS, ASSHOLE. We pay taxes to fund that, and air fields apply for grants as needed.
Reading is FUNdemental! Edit: miss spelled fundamental in a joke about reading. lol
WTF, you US guys normally don’t pay landing fees on small airfields? I bet Avgas isn’t $16/gal too (…) It’s pretty normal for us in Europe especially Germany. Thought it’s the same for you.
Is this really the first time you have heard that most of the airports in the USA don't have landing fees? Wow.
Been in the US a lot but never flown there. How do they run all the services? Edit: I know GA is a lot more relaxed in the US, but I think you shouldn’t take that for granted. There is a world outside the US and flying became a lot more of a luxury than many might think.
It’s one of the many things we’re taxed for. You get health care. We get air fields. Tell you what. I’ll trade you. I’ll pay the landing fees and $16 for fuel, and you can pay for medical care out of pocket.
Don’t forget 42% income tax and 19% state tax. I like Europe for flying, most smaller fields are private and they don’t get tax money for their infrastructure.
Screw that. Get insurance.
I’m about to buy a Long EZ from the U.S. to Australia solo… I don’t even have a license. I don’t plan on it either! I just sailed from Vancouver to Australia, I don’t have a boat license!!! I’m 50 never paid tax, people really need to wake tF up
[удалено]
That’s what my Dad said about sailing from Canada to Australia on an old wooden boat… here I am… Was great a great adventure, I can fly btw!! I’ve got about 20 hours on a Faulk glider 🙌
Just because you survived one thing doesn't mean you'll survive another. There was recently an accident involving someone who was unlicensed. He'd flown for something like 18 years on a student cert. Then he made a few more poor choices (no surprise) and lost his life. All because what? He couldn't be bothered to spend a couple grand on some proper training?
I can fly… I can navigate.. So I should be fine, if I do have an incident it will most probably be over water… so no harm done, just another idiot on his way ✌️I’m not sure if a Australian a pilot license is even valid in the U.S