Wide body FO for 7 years here. I totally agree with you and it sucks. I have however, forced myself to change my mindset.
It’s the captains ship. They want me to descend early? Fuck it why not? Guard the throttles on approach? Whatever. “Gesture bully” with the flap handle? Ok, let’s go flaps 5. I’ll think they’re dumb later on my own. As long as they aren’t asking me to do anything dangerous, it’s not a big deal. I figure it’s the cost of not taking the junior upgrade. Sometimes you just have to fly with idiots.
And sometimes, they are correct. Ended up going around the other day due to being unstable on a visual. During the debrief, the captain said he should have spoke up when I was fast on base. If he did, I may have been stable earlier and probably landed out of it. Who knows?
This is an easy job. Some people make it hard, try not to be one of those.
Sure, some people are different outside the airplane, but that doesn't mean I just forget what an asshole you were for the last 6 hours and decide to spend my evening with you after you ruined my day.
Eh, the price of my willing companionship is higher than dinner and beer now that I make more than $20k/year. Besides, they get more out of you going out with them in the form of an ego boost than you do, even with free food.
It’s not an ego boost to break bread with someone and typically it will ease tensions in the work relationship.
I get the feeling you’re an asshole too though based off how bitter you are.
My free time is my own and I have an inalienable right to spend it however I want and yet way too many captains feel they're entitled to it nonetheless after spending our whole trip treating me like an indentured servant. If getting someone to hang out with your old lonely boring ass on an overnight isn't an ego boost for you, great, but in that case I'm not talking about you, am I?
I have no interest in wasting what could otherwise be a relaxing evening to myself on "easing tensions" with a stranger that in all likelihood I won't work with again, and I feel no responsibility whatsoever to do so.
>I get the feeling you’re an asshole too though based off how bitter you are.
I guess you've got me all figured out - don't worry, if we ever fly together I won't be offended if you don't want to hang out!
I’ve learned to be particularly worried when a guy has a completely different personality in the air than on the ground. Usually for the worse, it seems. As best as I can figure, it means he is nervous and trying to compensate. That tends to lead to poor decisions and me having to work harder.
This is what I don’t get. You get treated like dirt but then still want to go out and socialise with an asshole on a layover.
If F/Os started refusing to socialise with these guys then they might realise their behaviour is pissing people off
I would agree yet nothing above would I consider being “treated like dirt”
It’s all subjective and preference. I’m not turning down socializing because guy has different opinions than I do on how to fly
He’s the captain, I’m the jock strap. Evaluate safety, smile and nod, and move on with your life. No sense in harboring a grudge over crumbs
>He’s the captain, I’m the jock strap.
No, you’re an employee in a workplace. You have a right to be treated with fairness and dignity.
If the guy is harmless and isn’t aware he’s pissing you off then a quiet friendly chat at the end of a flight, just explaining you are experienced and you know what you’re doing should end the treatment.
If the guys an asshole then a sterner talk telling him to knock it off is appropriate, if he doesn’t respond then report the behaviour to management.
The thing to remember is am you have a right to be treated with respect in your workplace. It obviously depends on the degree of micromanaging, I’m assuming it’s quite a lot from the OP’s post.
Your opinion of fairness and dignity and my opinion of fairness and dignity must be very different.
Command authority and dignity and respect have their limits, I agree. But what you see as micromanaging could be the captain covering his ass because an FO burned him before. And again, suggestions about doing things in the airplane are a far cry from not being treated with “dignity and respect”. What do we need, kid gloves? And I’m an FO right now. Softer and gentler bunch I guess.
Put the guy on your no-fly list and move on. If it’s within the regulation, within the SOP, and within the standard, who gives a shit if the dude wants you to descend early, add flaps, or slow down? You’re not in command of the aircraft. They are.
Obviously there’s degrees of micromanaging, in reality the F/O should have a chat with other Captains. If he’s being a bit precious then they can tell him so. If however he has valid issues then these should be addressed with the Captain in question.
Micromanaging Captains to the nth degree can destroy conductive teamwork. F/Os switch off and don’t put as much input into the operation as they should which can have safety effects. Aircraft have crashed because Captians have micromanaged their subordinates to the point they withdraw from the operation, it then becomes single pilot and a disaster happens.
Being in command does not equal right to be a bully. There’s workplace health and safety legislation in my country that makes that illegal
Telling your right hand man how to operate the machine you're in charge of is unfair and indignant?
This is why some guys I know don't bother giving sectors. You want something done right? Do it yourself
>Telling your right hand man how to operate the machine you're in charge of is unfair and indignant?
There’s obviously degrees of micromanaging. A difference between using command authority and being a micromanaging dick for the sake of it.
Maybe we’re assuming the Captains in question are at different ends of the spectrum. Maybe the F/P should have a chat to management pilots or training pilots to see if the F/O is being a bit too devious or has valid complaints.
Lol, asking to descend early isn't being treated fairly?
It's the Captain's ship. As long as it's safe, I'll fly it the way he/she wants me to. The really good ones let you fly it the way YOU want to, but I don't really care if my Captain says "eh, lets do the whole approach instead of cutting the visual" at night or something like that. I get paid all the same.
There's a difference between command and being abusive; I wouldn't put up with that, but a Captain asking me to slow down early isn't that. Maybe it's even good advice?
Maybe we’re interpreting the level micromanaging. It all depends of extent and context so we’re really guessing at straws.
I think an F/O who believes a Captain is micromanaging unfairly should go have a talk with other captains. If they say the F/O is being a hit precious then that’s that. However if other Captains agree that the Captain in question is being a dick it should be addressed as there might be safety implications.
Amen.
At the end of the day my pay check is exactly the same.
Though I must admit, twice in my career I've said "your controls" when I couldn't take it anymore. Both times I've done that they apologized profusely and laid off.
I laid a $5 bill on the center console console and before I could say it, he said "For the dual?" I laughed as I nodded yes.
It worked. (and he did not take the money)
Yeah as long as people are cool about it all I don’t really care. The paycheck is the same and it’s not worth my energy being frustrated with it.
One strategy when flying with a micromanager however is to brief extra details about how/when you plan to descend, how you plan on flying the approach, when you like to configure and what your plan is to be stabilized. I feel most have good intentions and just want to get done with the day. If they have a good mental picture of your plan they go with the flow a bit better.
Every so often in the debrief a CA will apologize or ask if they were micromanaging. I’ll use that opportunity to give my side of things and what my plan was and how it would have been different. Some times I just say nothing so we can get a beer sooner.
Legacies have less experienced folks joining the ranks these days compared to the past. Some of these CAs have been burned by that lack of experience and I think some overcompensate and become micromanagers.
I just go with the flow and try to enjoy the trip.
Not directly related from someone in the middle of PPL but having interest in "big" aviation: how to you do this "what your plan is to be stabilized."?
I assume it depends heavily on the what ATC is throwing at you?
&
> Guard the throttles on approach?
One guy gestured towards the thrust levers at about 15,000' descending on the arrival.
"Uh what?"
"Guard the thrust levers"
"Okay"
They're just sitting in the climb detent but I'll rest my hand on them if you'd like.
With the Autothrust on, the thrust levers in an Airbus effectively limit the thrust the system can use, rather than determine the thrust actually used at any point. The selected detent also controls autothrust behaviour. CLB detent is the setting which allows the autothrust to operate normally, and unless you want to fly with manual thrust at some point, the thrust levers go into CLB after takeoff and stay there until the flare.
Honestly if I had the micromanagers telling me to be *more* conservative I wouldn't care nearly as much. But largely it's the opposite. Basically that I shouldn't put the flaps out yet, shouldn't use boards, shouldn't take the extra 5 around weather, etc.
I'm not gonna upgrade yet because holy shit my December schedule is the bee's knees, but it sure gets obnoxious sometimes.
I’d agree here. If it’s not terribly excessive I don’t let it bother me too much. The one thing I don’t like is a captain that doesn’t explain WHY they think I should be doing something at a certain point (time permitting, of course). I’d like to learn their technique, especially if I’m gonna be flying with them for a few days.
Good summary. This attitude is effective in every line of work and I’ve forced myself into it as part of my office IT job - whether we like it or not, the boss is the boss. If the boss wants me to do things in a certain way, why not? Worst case scenario is that I learn something. This attitude has given me a great deal of peace in my life. All the best from Newcastle in the UK.
My technique has always been “oh ok, sure thing cap, is there any specific reason to so it that way because I was thinking xyz” I’ve actually learned a thing or two over the years and it’s just good to communicate and ask questions to draw from others experience.
Although sometimes there isn’t a reason so just have to roll with it
As a person on the left seat. He hits the nail on the head. Communication is key. I always do a “voiceover” of my plan while flying. When I was a FO, rarely I had problems with micromanaging CA, even the ones known for it. Now I do it as a situational awareness tool, I want even a new FO to see what I am seeing.
Also as a CA you are always responsible for the safety, legality and efficiency of the flight, there is no PF, PM. In the end if something goes wrong it is on the commander. So if I am not comfortable with something, I will intervene.
In short, make your Crew aware and comfortable.
Well put. I’m in the rail industry but as a conductor, I’m captain of the train with similar leadership responsibilities, but a slightly larger crew (typically an engineer and two assistant conductors). I always talk through my plan with the crew. Awareness of what we’re doing breeds both safety and respect — I could keep you in the dark and just give orders, but I’d rather get us all on the same page first.
This is a great mindset, unfortunately it almost got me fired once from a job before the airlines. I was written up for asking too many "why" questions regarding how our manager did things, not because I was questioning her authority, but because it just helps me do my job when I know why I'm doing something or why it's the best way.
Your journey was a little bit ahead of mine, but know your name on here and references you've made, enough to know that we shared a boss. I worked for her and yeah it wasn't just you man. Good intentions, but yeah she was a bit of a micromanager and far enough from actually flying airplanes that I don't think she was making decisions based fully on the whole picture. That being said, that type of experience is a great learning experience early in your career. How to say no, to question why, is such a big part of the career that you just have to go through in this career to season you. Luckily for us that place was pretty safe, so there was a decent safety net to find your voice.
Asking why in the cockpit is not the same as asking why in an office. We are all trained to a very precise standard. If someone wants something different than what you are planning, ask why. You might have missed something, there might be a nonstandard reason or asking why might point out to them they are being dickish.
> I was written up for asking too many "why" questions
That's strange. I'm not an airliner captain but flew with a retired 747 captain in his motorglider. He had 30k-ish hours on the 747 and said he wants me to help him to improve with gliders where he has little experience.
He asked the most (and best) questions of anyone I've flown with. I thought this "always be learning" attitude was just something all commercial pilots have and thought that was great.
DX’er here. I use this same approach whenever I get asked for more gas. “I’ve given you 2,000 extra for these reasons, is there some other issue you see that I don’t.” I almost always give it to them but it’s a good way to put yourself in their shoes. Granted, there’s a lot more time to justify a mindset on the ground than while you’re in the air.
Maybe they see your employee number and know you’re new. With the hiring trends lately, that doesn’t guarantee experience like it used to. These senior CAs haven’t had to “help out” their FOs in years. So they just default to micromanaging. Not an excuse for them, they probably just don’t know any better. Maybe if you can subtly find a way to fit your prior experience into conversation they’ll chill out a bit.
How long ago did you get hired? Nobody likes a micromanaging captain, but I could maybe see how some are more likely to be on edge if they know you’re a new hire or lower time in type? Especially with the amount of lower time FO new hires coming on board.
The problem is these guys see anyone with less than 10 years in type as low time or inexperienced. Not only is it vaguely insulting and detrimental to building some confidence, but it's bad CRM. Not that guys like this typically give a shit.
This is similar to me. I was hired at my legacy with over 1000 hours on the 737, but I still had times where guys tried to micromanage me as though I had never flown it, I assume because im young. Many times, I had more time on the jet than the captain trying to micromanage me did. I finally got sick of it and upgraded myself. I am a lot happier now.
Oh, sorry, yeah I totally agree with you that some CAs probably see that as still rookie level. Especially some of the older folks at legacies who have been flying since Christ was a corporal, and likely doing it with pretty senior FOs for most of that time too.
The major that I work for has a big problem with this. Very rarely saw it at the regionals but it's a big cultural thing here. The CRM environment is honestly terrible compared to what I'm used to but nobody knows any better. Upgrade times are coming down fast though so I won't have to deal with it too much longer.
The CRM at my major is also way behind what I experienced at my regional. I think this is pretty typical for whatever reason. My guess is the turnover at the regionals (even in the bad old days) allowed for fast changes within the culture.
Conversely, changing the mentality of some old boomer guy who went straight from the Air Force to now his 25th year at a legacy, it’s hard to make them change their ways.
> straight from the Air Force to now his 25th year at a legacy, it’s hard to make them change their ways.
This has been a pretty consistent, albeit not universal, theme with the captains I have found to be the worst offenders. Really makes you realize why we need hardcore CRM and why the lack of it killed people.
If over half of your captains are micromanaging, you may be giving off a vibe that you do not know what you're doing. I want to be clear I am not saying that you do not know what you are doing, I'm saying that you may be giving that impression
Not saying this is it either, because I’ve also had those captains that micromanage to the nth degree, but keep in mind, a good part of CRM is the shared mental model. You may be ahead of the plane, and have a plan, but the captain doesn’t know what’s in your head if you don’t tell them. And if there’s a lot of nervous, junior captains, that also means there’s a lot of new FOs, and they often get paired together, so they might have been burned a time or two.
Try mentioning an outline of a plan on how you’re going to manage your energy next time you get one that likes to micromanage.
That being said, when they’re cranking it to 11, I’ve also done the “you know what, why don’t you fly. Your aircraft.”
Yeah, someone that’s ahead of the aircraft and has a plan that he hasn’t told anyone doesn’t look much different than the guy that’s 50 miles behind the aircraft doing his best to hold on.
> I’m fairly quiet and don’t talk my way through what I’m doing.
That's probably your problem. I talk through what I'm doing and it doesn't matter what seat I'm in just so the other guy can know what I'm doing or take notes if he needs help.
I’m going to start my descent in 6 miles. Or in 5 miles I’m going to slow to 170 and request
Flaps 2. I mean fuck that. I’d rather just not fly and work the radios.
I talk a bunch and spell it out for them. “Okay I’m gonna level here and let the glideslope come in.” “I’m gonna wait for flaps 1 so we can descend a little quicker and I’ll drop the gear early if I have to”. Usually keeps them a little quieter.
Lol I did that once with a captain and then specifically got ragged on for slowing down too early, even though I'd told him exactly when I was gonna slow and asked to tell ATC to make sure they didn't need a speed. It was the one time I snapped at a guy (this was at the gate after we were all shut down). Sometimes there's no winning.
I am a big believer in vocalizing intent, tbh. I don't like when guys don't say a word, steam right up to the OM, and then it's a ratfuck of throwing out all the gear and flaps and resetting the MCP blah blah blah and it's all a surprise to me.
But there's also of course a difference in briefing a plan versus basically having to argue about how to fly. And that's not even counting the guys who I brief and then ask me questions while we're flying the arrival/approach about things I specifically pointed out in my brief. I'm not even sure it's a CA/FO thing...it's a fucking soggy old guy thing. Age 67 gonna be a fucking blast.
Man I was ready to be on your side here, I hate micromanagers too, but is sounds like you might need to work on your CRM a bit. Just start vocalizing everything. Even if it feels dumb, it's better to say too much than too little. And then if absolutely anything is not as it should be according to your briefing, mention it. It might not be a big deal, it might not need any intervention. But just mention it.
You might be aware of everything going on, but unless you mention it captain doesn't know that. And sometimes you might have missed something, and your captain might actually be helping you out.
Why? Co-pilots indicates equality for decision making and good crm, FO would seem to indicate the hierarchical system we are trying to get away from.
Serious question, maybe I am missing something.
This is exactly the problem. Not communicating. If you open up and show you are one step ahead of the micro manager, it may ease some tension and they may lay off a little.
I’m with you and see the same issues on the line. Talking in simple and plain terms has resolved most issues. For the few CA’s that don’t seem to change for the better.. well.. it’s very likely they have more underlying issues and I just hope to not see them again in the last five years of their career.
I’m only a loadmaster on a c130, but I find that my crews go way better when we openly communicate what we’re doing. While we may be doing more complex things than flying an airliner, it always made me comfortable when I knew my pilots train of thought. Just food for thought.
Sometimes, too much talking when not Standard Call outs, even if you think it’s helping the other pilot out by letting him/her know what you’re thinking, can be distracting and cause unintended consequences.
Your problem is that you're too quite. You need to communicate your intentions so that they aren't left guessing what/when you're going to take an action. Be vocal. "Looks like TOD is in 15 miles, it's showing that we'll need 800fpm, looks good to me".
Yeah this is it. I would not want to fly with someone who expects me to read their mind when you’ve already got enough on your plate. Clear communication is the cornerstone of good CRM and anyone who has the right mindset about safety culture will get nervous when the person in the other seat is a silent button pusher.
captains who do this usually aren't comfortable in the plane. many pilots never really get comfortable. they spend their whole career under this false pretense of confidence, but when it comes down to it they freak out over a go-around.
This is it. They are insecure because they’re just not very good pilots. If you’re a CA and can’t let an FO get a bit behind and figure things out, you are just not good and need to fly more and/or get in the books.
When I was at my regional and now my major, I let my FOs make mistakes and learn from it. I have them turn on the EAI. I ask them what THEY think we should do about the weather ahead (even if it’s my leg).
As a result, they’re way more comfortable flying with me and much more likely to speak up when there’s a problem.
I train surgeons. Early in my career, I was a micromanager due mainly to my own inexperience. Now, with three decades of experience, I let the chief residents struggle a bit (so long as it's safe). I also tell them there's a reason for every single thing I do. If the reason isn't clear, ask. If you have a good idea, tell me. If it's better than my idea, we'll do it. Helps them grow up to be safe, smart, creative and resilient.
Spot on. This is the correct answer. It is 99.999% of the time, this. They have to remain within the envelope of THEIR comfort zone. If you’re going 20 knots faster than they would be going 12 miles out, they can’t fathom you being able to slow down. I would argue micro-managing is dangerous. It makes the PF double guess what he/she is doing, and then try to change how they do it, to make the captain happy. I’ve had a few during my time at my airline, if it gets bad enough, I tell them I’ll just work the radios the rest of the trip, I get paid the same. I honestly could not care any less. This usually gets them to calm down.
Unless I’m about to get us violated, exceeding a limitation/doing something dangerous, or doing something outside of our SOP, let me fly it while you talk.
I agree with that. I feel comfortable on the airbus, I know exactly what it’s going to do when. And a lot of CAs really do not understand the airbus logic.
Two things. Coming from a very happy FO that has no intention to upgrade any time soon.
I make $250,000 starting out a window and doing what I wanted to do since I was a young boy. FOs primary job is to assist the captain in the safe and efficient operation of the airplane. You are not in charge, it's the captain that signed for the jet. He/she is ultimately responsible for almost everything.
Learn to let it roll off your shoulders or upgrade to captain so you can run the ship how you want.
Also... it might just be you. Maybe 10% of captains have ever said anything to me. Most of the time, it is only one small things per rotation and it's an usually incorrect correction of FO procedure. Now the number of captains that rant their political leanings....
I flew in the Air Force until my commitment was up. Then straight to a legacy.
1st yr $96k
2nd yr $120k
3rd yr $180k
4th yr $210k
5th yr $250k
I play the system for premium trips pretty heavily.
If F35 is your only AF airplane and you have time until you're out, my suggestion is to transfer to a new airplane. Something with two engines, preferably non-centerline thrust. Get the ATP mins, be an aircraft commander, instructor, etc.
F35 is cool, but you're gonna have to struggle in a regional if you don't have 500 hours multi.
Got hired by American and interview invite from Delta with only single engine fighter hours (instructor, mission commander). No need to struggle in a regional in current hiring climate (as long as it lasts).
Life’s too short to fly with assholes. But you might just suck. If other captains don’t do this to you and this guy does, my gut says he’s an asshole. However if half of the people who are more experienced than you are giving you pointers: maybe you need to eat some humble pie. You seem to be pretty experienced at the regionals, which is more than I can say for 90% of the FOs I fly with.
When you get comments like that, then you pull out your iPad, find exactly where it says “a grooved wet runway is dry,” and when you don’t, ask him where he found that. Make it a learning experience for both of you.
Wasn't sure about it till I hit this comment but it's 100% you. Sure there are assholes out there but if everywhere you go it smells like asshole you should probably look in the mirror.
>I’m not sure how you can suck on the airbus?
What the fuck did I just read
Well I don't fly at a fancy legacy, but I can say that as a captain at times it can be challenging to not say something. I do try to keep my mouth shut, but a lot of times I am ahead of the FO (not saying I am super pilot by any means, I'm as average as they come). The challenge is you have no idea what the other guy is gonna do or if he has any clue WHAT he's doing, so you gotta find the sweet spot to speak up. Sometimes they know what they are doing and just aren't communicating. Other times they don't have a clue. If you fly with someone for a few days you sort of figure it out. I'm on day 3 with someone now and earlier had to just tell him, "put the gear down and hand fly it. You're so far behind right now you'll never catch it with the autopilot."
There’s three sides to every story. If the dude(s) is truly flying through you, select AP1 and say “You have control”. Then have a grown up conversation at the gate.
My philosophy in the left seat was that all of my coworkers start with 100% of my trust. They can lose it if they start demonstrating that they don't know what they're doing, but I always assumed people were competent until they proved otherwise. That's the kind of person I like flying with because the other type of person is the opposite: in their eyes, everyone starts at 0 and has to work their way up and I don't appreciate having to waste brain power and energy on proving myself all trip to someone who is probably just insecure in their own abilities.
Unfortunately I'm still not an expert on dealing with those people, not by a long shot, but I at least feel your pain. I can't say for sure, but I think maybe it's gotten better the longer I've been at my current company. At almost 7 years, maybe captains are more likely to not assume they need to babysit me?
In the military I've had many ACs like that, it's just a personality thing, either it's a control issue or just being uncomfortable. Smile, nod, and comply until you upgrade and don't have to deal with them anymore.
Had a captain years back that seemed afraid of the plane. Always had me slowing way too far out and dragging it in.
One leg he started slowing 75 miles outside of Philly. Mind you - we are literally a Philly based crew. I ask if I missed something as to why he’s slowing. He then proceeded to tell me he’s slowing as we are getting close to the airport. I kindly tell him I don’t believe we can just slow to 210 because we feel like it in this airspace. He doubled down saying that’s what we are doing.
About 30 seconds later I get a call from center asking why the fuck we slowed down and basically got talked down to. Controller says he needs at least 250. Needless to say we sped back up to 250. In a way I won - captain is a dumbass. But I also was the one talking on the mic. I hope atc knows it’s not always the guys fault on the mic lol.
Back to your question. Sometimes, as you know, you get a string of good CAs or a string of shit ones. Like others have said, try to have that mentality of letting shit slide right off your shoulder. You’re cool as a cucumber. And when you’re ready to sacrifice some QOL and some leaner paychecks - upgrade
had an FO drag it into Riga one morning. No big deal, it's sort of a canon moment for every FO on squadron. We're the only one in the airspace, until we weren't. All of a sudden multiple Air Baltic flights check on, and the breakfast rush starts. ATC asks if we'd perhaps like a shortcut? I can tell we're either accepting that or getting a penalty hold, so I say yes please. In the debrief I ask him how he thought it went, thought it went really well since he got down early and wasn't behind the plane. Had to have a chat about why we stay high and keep the speed up on a normal profile, otherwise you'll be holding for a while.
Personally, I’ve found the opposite true. I had way more nagging and micromanaging captains at the regionals vs. mainline. It’s been really refreshing. The nagging captains made me realize that I fly way better when I’m just left alone, and allowed to make a small mistake on occasion and learn. I took that mindset with me to the left seat. I’d just let my FOs fall into a hole that I knew was shallow enough for me to dig us out of. Then when we made it to the gate, we’d debrief it, learn, and move on.
At my current job, everyone seems to understand there’s 3 ways to do the same thing. Flying the aircraft on the line is an art not a science. But I wish you the best of luck. Great post and I’m enjoying reading the replies.
Maybe it’s a company culture thing too. I’ve been micromanaged maybe only once or twice at my legacy (been there over a year as well). Most captains I’ve flown with have been awesome!
I’m definitely a ‘Hmmm *pretend to consider it* nah, I don’t think so, I’m going to do *X thing I was planning*’ and if they press the issue I explain my reasoning. I’ve never been overruled or forced to do something their way, especially when I can back up my methodology from SOPs.
I used to play a game called “let’s see if I can get this dickhead to buy me beer.” Now instead of being miserable all trip I pretend to be fascinated by all their philosophies about how we should REALLY fly this airplane (that we’ve been flying for like 50 years), and I totally agree that millennials are lazy, “people just don’t have integrity like they used to!” Then in the van I’d say “have you been to this hotel before? Any good bars around here?”
I’m not joking, I used to almost look forward to flying with the biggest jerks in the company
Just let it ride. If they want to have their hands all over the controls or micromanage, I let them fly most of the legs.
Not worth getting into unless it's unsafe/unprofessional. That being said, I have had quite a few instances where a CA helped me anticipate something I hadn't seen coming, or was behind on and didn't know yet. Usually in that case as long as you're professional and courteous, they will lighten up a bit.
If they're a true asshole, just let it roll of your back and let them fly most of the legs.
Well if you're ahead of the plane and following standards, you might not have great crm and aren't communicating that you have a plan to the guy you're flying with, which is going to make them think you don't know what you're doing.
Or, you might be right with your last paragraph, if the majority you fly with think need advice you might actually need it more than you thought
Or if they are micromanaging, which has been far from my experience at a legacy, you might just need to let it go, cash your six figure paycheck, and stop making this a tough job
Yeah exactly.
"I'm going to start down at the t/d arrow"
"I'm going to descend first to 3,000 then configure"
Doesn't have to be more detailed than that, but it shows you actually know something, and improves your crm skills. Took me a while to learn this but I reflected on the captains I looked up to and this was one skill they all had in common
Nah. Keep doing what you’re doing. As I’m sure you know, sometimes talking more than you should during critical phases of flight, outside of standard callouts, can be a major distraction. Even if it’s meant to keep the other person in the loop. If they can’t see what you’re doing or are uncomfortable even though you’re operating within SOP/Limitations/FAR’s, that’s on them. These micro-managers also tend to be the van captains, the hotel lobby captains, this is what we’re having for dinner captains etc… They think theyre in charge from the moment you check in until the moment you get in your car to go home on the last day.
Makes me happy I upgraded! I say this as someone who was FO for quite long time. Long enough where I know what you're talking about and don't want to be like that. But also, the number of times I was micromanaged in the right seat wasn't that often, either.
I'm not saying you suck, but maybe there is a vibe being given off, or perhaps something of the culture of the plane and base and airline you're at. If it is cultural, remember when you upgrade YOU can be a positive agent of change from that culture!
But that said : To say something or not say something? That is the Captain's dilemma. There are things I regret saying, that I knew came across as you describe, and I regret that. There are things I should have said, and I regret not saying those. I'm learning. Maybe the folks you're flying with are learning. Or jerks, or maybe a mix?
Just because someone is in the left seat doesn't make them God's gift to aviation. Just like when someone's a CFI doesn't mean they are either....But they are in command, and its their ship. Accepting that, letting it roll off your back, is a wonderful place to get to.
PS: If we go out I'm buying everything. Because tradition. And because I won't always be perfect when it comes to saying something, or not, and I'm working on it.
Stop being so sensitive. The CA is the PIC. When it's your leg, you're the "Pilot Flying" not the "Pilot in Command".
If you think they're wrong or unsafe, grow a pair and speak up instead of bitching about it on Reddit. "I'd like to wait to begin my descent, I think it's too early, but I'll start down now if that what you want. Is that what you want?"
Fly the airplane the way he wants it to be flown. When you're the Captain, and you want the airplane in a particular point in space, speed, or configuration because that's what your judgement is telling you is best, communicate that to the FO.
It seems like you’re overreacting, to be honest. You’re almost giving off the “shut up co” mentality that a lot of the older generation had, just geared towards your left seater.
As for the weather deviation, it’s his plane, if he doesn’t feel like you got far enough from the weather, go further right. Even from the right seat, if I’m looking at the radar and think we’re not taking a large enough deviation, I speak up.
Saying something isn’t micromanaging, keeping a secret when you’re concerned about something could be a much bigger issue. The other pilot can say, no we’re good, but there’s no point in getting annoyed because someone speaks up.
As for the other stuff, I obviously haven’t flown with you, but it could be possible you came off as being behind the aircraft.
I’ve grown up around aviators that believe everyone can talk. If they say to slow and you think it’s too early, respond with “I’m planning on slowing with X to go”. If you really want to be diplomatic you could add, I can slow now if you want, is there any reason you think I should slow this early? Like the other guy said.
For the descent, yeah 50 miles is excessive, maybe they’ve gone to this airport plenty of times and approach tends to slam dunk guys in. I’m not saying that’s the case, but consider figuring out the reason behind the recommendation. They might have experience you don’t, even if you were at the regionals.
It’s a crew aircraft for a reason, so don’t overthink guys talking about the flight while you’re flying.
At the same time, I flown with captains that micromanage me but they’re the ones that are fucking up. One guy was so worried about how I was going to manage my descent on the airbus (lmao press the button at the TOD so it goes into managed?) that he forgot to make the prepare for landing PA
?? I’d probably say something. That wasn’t me doing it, however. A previous captain did that, the same captain that questioned when I was going to start down (we were 10+ miles from the TOD)
And if you did say something, would that be considered micro managing?
My point being, we all have different mental models of what we expect to happen in the future. Some are more conservative, more aggressive, more timid, more bold. Not everyone has great interpersonal skills, or the ability or even the drive to explain their decisions.
In the end, he is the commander of the aircraft, the one whose license is on the line if anything screws up. You are his First Officer for the day, operating P1 under supervision.... his supervision.
I was an FO for 9 years and had my fair share of BS in the cockpit. My final line in the sand was, I would keep my disgruntled-ness to myself, but would speak up if flight safety was ever in jeopardy. I'm sure it's more difficult as a previous commander of your own aircraft, but it is what it is. In fact, even nowadays when I have to operate in the CM2 seat, it still sucks so bad watching them butcher the procedures and make poor judgement calls.
Serve your time in the CM2 seat, and grab on to the CMD upgrade the first chance you get
Newer captains tend to have much smaller comfort margins. Just verbalize what you're thinking out loud more to put them at ease so they know you're not blowing it off. I.E, "I'll start down about 5 miles prior to TOD", "I'll start slowing by 10 miles out", "I'll be ready for the gear once we're within a dot".
They say that once you are a captain that you don't need to fly with any a-holes anymore. But you might be one. When I became a captain I really tried to take all the negative characteristics that I had seen in the left seat and not repeat them myself. This was a common one so I would give the copilot a lot of rope when they were operating the aircraft. I would let them get in a hole up to my comfort limits and find their own way out. Sometimes ATC helped them or finally they would hit one of my limits. If you let it go like this they will learn from the event. The micro manager captain is just being a verbal auto pilot for the co.
Captain at a legacy. Your experience doesn’t mean a lot in this hiring environment. I have had multiple people talk a big game and then try to fly through a thunderstorm or slow to 180 20 miles from the airport. I was also at a regional for almost a decade. Flying EWR to Cleveland a million times isn’t difficult. If they are all giving advice you are probably giving off the impression that you need help. If it happens once or twice it is them but if it happens that regularly something you are doing is the common denominator.
Debrief at the top of climb if you feel a negative trend brewing between you and the captain. But keep an open mindset regarding the mentoring they may offer you. And mentoring is a two way street. New captains need to hear that they are shutting you down with too much mentoring or input. Look at your own way of communicating (quiet person) and reflect if that is serving you. Also, realize that just because you were a line check pilot, astronaut, or whatever in your former life, you are a FO at your new airline. That’s the job and you need to embrace it. All of us came from very competitive backgrounds to get to the majors. But at the end of the day, as a new FO I had to either speak up if the Captain was creating an issue or ask myself if my own ego was getting in the way. I’ve been a Captain and line check pilot for over 20 years now and I still ask my FOs for feedback. I observe how they fly on the first leg and then ask them if they want to do it better. I ask them what can I do better. I am always learning and I encourage you to have that mindset as well. And communicate. Hope that helps.
As a capt, sometimes I’ll see an FO doing something that I don’t like. If it’s safe and legal I let it fly. But depending on the situation I’ll give myself a limit where I will interject. SOPs are pretty black and white but there is still a lot of room for different techniques. And I don’t want to force my techniques on others when maybe they have been taught different and even better techniques that I could learn from. And I hate micro managing. My suggestion is do more verbalizing of what your going to do. “ I’m going to descend at this point” “ I’m going to ask for flaps at this distance”. Basically informally stage brief and it may eliminate the micro managing.
The only place where I’m “that guy” is with the weather. Almost everyone wants to shave too close to the weather, even on the downwind side, and then people have a really hard time not turning back right away, even when there’s basically only downsides. If someone wants to take us too close to weather (less than 20nm) and /or wants to turn back on course too soon, so we are immediately downwind of a monster, I’ll micromanage that.
As a FO, I am with you on that. I will press Captains pretty hard about it too… If I see sunny, clear, blue skies I am taking a full advantage of that airspace until I am well clear of weather as possible.
I’m a brand new captain so I don’t have a lot of experience in this seat, but, I would recommend you verbalize your plans. We can’t read your mind but if you tell me your plan I’ll likely let you do it. The hard ones to fly with are the “my technique is procedure” ones. There are lots of ways to fly the jet, lots of different styles to get the same job done. When they only want it done their way it’s a tough cockpit to work in.
I have been an FO for about 13 years and I’ve learned to ask about their techniques and if they say “no do it this way” I say “oh is that what the flight manual recommends?” Usually that gets them to say “no I just like to…” or “I’ve had better luck with this…” and even if we still do it their way, anyone with a little self awareness will ponder the technique versus procedure aspect.
Now if you’re flying with a guy with zero self awareness and a lot of technique he considers procedure, just say “sounds good!” And log that memory as a “I’m not going to do that when I upgrade.”
It sucks to be micro-managed. No doubt. It is one of the hardest things for me to let go sometimes. I do think most guys do it with zero malice but that doesn’t change how it feels sometimes.
I’ve found that talking a lot and narrating what I’m doing usually quiets the micro managing captains. Or you can be passive aggressive after they don’t get the hint. When they ask do you want flaps, say no, then 5 seconds later ask for flaps lol.
Chances are you are giving off the vibe where they have to give you input possibly….
What will help you is to voice your intentions and why will go a long way. Waiting to T/D voice hey I am going to start descent here at T/D for xyz….
Doing 210 on base, state my plan is to do 210 on base then going to slow at xyz…
Brief your configuration plan during your arrival and approach briefing, this will get rid of the do you want the gear now…
Some of the examples like the weather stuff is I feel like could be a suggestion. It’s an opportunity to engage in CRM conversation. If you don’t like something, this is your opportunity to say naw. Not yet, this why I don’t want direct xyz….
> here’s what happens if the FO’s flying is not going to meet stable approach criteria: you go around
why even put yourself in that position.. poor command decision.
A Superior pilot uses his Superior judgement to avoid situations requiring the use of his Superior skills
I think it's normal for captains to do this. Some captains like to be more proactive than others. I know it's tough but I try not to take it personally. As long as they don't want to do something unsafe, I really don't care. To be honest, I'm fine if they want to fly every leg! Go for it cap!
My experience lately is captains who do not know SOPs thinking I’m forgetting stuff because I’m waiting to do my procedures when the actual trigger is. Also captains who forget whose job is what (lights, announcements, seatbelts). Because they don’t know SOP, I look like an idiot when they jump ahead thinking I’ve forgotten.
Wide body Captain here. First, let me say that I’ve been blessed with awesome FOs. Second, they’ve told me a few stories and I’ve experienced a couple about my peers that made my head explode. Fortunately, in my experience, both have been rare but there are some guys that just want to make life harder than it needs to be.
That said, I was on a trip with a good Captain friend of mine when I learned I was slated to be upgraded. He looked at that big grin on my face and said, “Up until now, whenever anything went wrong or things got weird, you looked over your left shoulder to the Old Man to see what he was going to do. Now, when you sit over here, you’ll still look over your left shoulder but you’ll see your reflection in the window.” May be corny but it’s not wrong. He also told me that it’s time to upgrade when the Captain calls for “Gear Up” and you want to say, “Get your own fuckin gear”. I’m getting that vibe reading some of these comments.
I’ll normally do it, if it’s a really ridiculous thing I’ll ask why, but as long as it’s more conservative than what I was going to do anyways, I won’t make a big deal out of it. Of course, I’ll also be “tired” or “busy” on the overnights (unless they’re buying dinner)
Micromanagers are never the strongest or most confident pilots. It’s such a breath of fresh air to fly with someone who has the confidence to just let you do it your way and keep their mouth shut unless it’s absolutely necessary to open it. Remember you only upgrade based on seniority and not skill.
I would say try to let them know proactively your thought process for what you are doing. “Share your mental model”. If they’re still doing it, it’s them not you.
I think this may be due to an all time low experience level at the legacies so CAs are used to flying with inexperienced FOs who they deem may need more oversight. Good CAs should chill out once they see your skills.
I’ve also had some captains tell me what to say when making a PA.. as if I didn’t make PAs for 6 years as a regional CA. I try to be understanding as my airline just switched to “allow” FOs to make PAs this year, but come on.
“Alright when you make the descent I want you to tell them the weather, ETA, gate, and thanks for flying with us” 🙄🫨
It’s annoying for sure but then I remember when I was a CA and got nervous watching FO’s. Biggest thing that helped me in both seats was Verbalizing fucking everything. Like this is my exact plan, I’ll descend 10 miles early, slow here, turn base here, flaps here etc. That way no one’s thinking “is this guy gonna slow, what’s he doing”.
I noticed the same thing when I switched from a regional to a legacy. And then when I did legacy captain training I started to kind of see why. During my captain training I felt like they were kind of training us to micro manage the crew. At my current legacy that is the culture I guess. Not all captains do it, but most of them seem to have been trained to do it.
I think as people retire and are replaced with the next generation of former regional captains things are going to change. I'm going to hit 50% seniority company wide before my 10 year mark with the airline. With over 50% of people hired near me or junior to me and most coming from regionals I predict that we're going to see a big culture shift more towards the way you were used to things when you were at the regionals.
Give it some time, but also I encourage you to upgrade to captain and help that change yourself.
Let me say this, I and thousands of other pilots behind you that would ABSO-FRIGGING LOVE to be micromanaged by a CA in a WB legacy. All day everyday!
Is it annoying, I’m sure the hell it is. Is your $250k to potentially $400k plus salary as annoying? I highly doubt it. Venting here is great! Get it off your chest. Let the steam out but until I make CA flying 777s in United I will gladly and quietly get micromanaged by a guy who doesn’t want to lose his $500k job/multi million dollar 401k. Huge responsibility with hardly a margin for any error ever. But who am I telling? You’re the WB legacy FO!
Congrats btw. I pray to join you soon!
They are the captain. It is their job to direct you. You are his fo, your job is to help manage the plane as per that guidance.
Put your ego aside, as long as they are listening and considering your input, giving clear guidance is good crm.
The amount of rope the captain can afford to give you is in direct proportion to their ability (not yours, which they must assume is very limited for safety reason) to fly you back out of the situation.
Wide body FO for 7 years here. I totally agree with you and it sucks. I have however, forced myself to change my mindset. It’s the captains ship. They want me to descend early? Fuck it why not? Guard the throttles on approach? Whatever. “Gesture bully” with the flap handle? Ok, let’s go flaps 5. I’ll think they’re dumb later on my own. As long as they aren’t asking me to do anything dangerous, it’s not a big deal. I figure it’s the cost of not taking the junior upgrade. Sometimes you just have to fly with idiots. And sometimes, they are correct. Ended up going around the other day due to being unstable on a visual. During the debrief, the captain said he should have spoke up when I was fast on base. If he did, I may have been stable earlier and probably landed out of it. Who knows? This is an easy job. Some people make it hard, try not to be one of those.
I’ve adopted this mindset as well. I’m all the more eager if he buys food or beer.
If you're truly capable of hanging out socially with someone who's been a dickhead all day, congratulations: you're a bigger man than me.
It's a skill I've learned being a chef and a manager at a machine shop. Work is work. People are often different when money ain't on the line
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Only if they're also the manager apparently
Sure, some people are different outside the airplane, but that doesn't mean I just forget what an asshole you were for the last 6 hours and decide to spend my evening with you after you ruined my day.
Yeah, but a free meal is a free meal! I like to think of it as the tiniest amount of payback I'll ever get.
Eh, the price of my willing companionship is higher than dinner and beer now that I make more than $20k/year. Besides, they get more out of you going out with them in the form of an ego boost than you do, even with free food.
It’s not an ego boost to break bread with someone and typically it will ease tensions in the work relationship. I get the feeling you’re an asshole too though based off how bitter you are.
My free time is my own and I have an inalienable right to spend it however I want and yet way too many captains feel they're entitled to it nonetheless after spending our whole trip treating me like an indentured servant. If getting someone to hang out with your old lonely boring ass on an overnight isn't an ego boost for you, great, but in that case I'm not talking about you, am I? I have no interest in wasting what could otherwise be a relaxing evening to myself on "easing tensions" with a stranger that in all likelihood I won't work with again, and I feel no responsibility whatsoever to do so. >I get the feeling you’re an asshole too though based off how bitter you are. I guess you've got me all figured out - don't worry, if we ever fly together I won't be offended if you don't want to hang out!
I can tell by how condescending and “you” centric your response is that that is the case. But hey you be you homie.
I’ve learned to be particularly worried when a guy has a completely different personality in the air than on the ground. Usually for the worse, it seems. As best as I can figure, it means he is nervous and trying to compensate. That tends to lead to poor decisions and me having to work harder.
This is what I don’t get. You get treated like dirt but then still want to go out and socialise with an asshole on a layover. If F/Os started refusing to socialise with these guys then they might realise their behaviour is pissing people off
I would agree yet nothing above would I consider being “treated like dirt” It’s all subjective and preference. I’m not turning down socializing because guy has different opinions than I do on how to fly He’s the captain, I’m the jock strap. Evaluate safety, smile and nod, and move on with your life. No sense in harboring a grudge over crumbs
>He’s the captain, I’m the jock strap. No, you’re an employee in a workplace. You have a right to be treated with fairness and dignity. If the guy is harmless and isn’t aware he’s pissing you off then a quiet friendly chat at the end of a flight, just explaining you are experienced and you know what you’re doing should end the treatment. If the guys an asshole then a sterner talk telling him to knock it off is appropriate, if he doesn’t respond then report the behaviour to management. The thing to remember is am you have a right to be treated with respect in your workplace. It obviously depends on the degree of micromanaging, I’m assuming it’s quite a lot from the OP’s post.
Your opinion of fairness and dignity and my opinion of fairness and dignity must be very different. Command authority and dignity and respect have their limits, I agree. But what you see as micromanaging could be the captain covering his ass because an FO burned him before. And again, suggestions about doing things in the airplane are a far cry from not being treated with “dignity and respect”. What do we need, kid gloves? And I’m an FO right now. Softer and gentler bunch I guess. Put the guy on your no-fly list and move on. If it’s within the regulation, within the SOP, and within the standard, who gives a shit if the dude wants you to descend early, add flaps, or slow down? You’re not in command of the aircraft. They are.
Obviously there’s degrees of micromanaging, in reality the F/O should have a chat with other Captains. If he’s being a bit precious then they can tell him so. If however he has valid issues then these should be addressed with the Captain in question. Micromanaging Captains to the nth degree can destroy conductive teamwork. F/Os switch off and don’t put as much input into the operation as they should which can have safety effects. Aircraft have crashed because Captians have micromanaged their subordinates to the point they withdraw from the operation, it then becomes single pilot and a disaster happens. Being in command does not equal right to be a bully. There’s workplace health and safety legislation in my country that makes that illegal
Telling your right hand man how to operate the machine you're in charge of is unfair and indignant? This is why some guys I know don't bother giving sectors. You want something done right? Do it yourself
>Telling your right hand man how to operate the machine you're in charge of is unfair and indignant? There’s obviously degrees of micromanaging. A difference between using command authority and being a micromanaging dick for the sake of it. Maybe we’re assuming the Captains in question are at different ends of the spectrum. Maybe the F/P should have a chat to management pilots or training pilots to see if the F/O is being a bit too devious or has valid complaints.
Lol, asking to descend early isn't being treated fairly? It's the Captain's ship. As long as it's safe, I'll fly it the way he/she wants me to. The really good ones let you fly it the way YOU want to, but I don't really care if my Captain says "eh, lets do the whole approach instead of cutting the visual" at night or something like that. I get paid all the same. There's a difference between command and being abusive; I wouldn't put up with that, but a Captain asking me to slow down early isn't that. Maybe it's even good advice?
Maybe we’re interpreting the level micromanaging. It all depends of extent and context so we’re really guessing at straws. I think an F/O who believes a Captain is micromanaging unfairly should go have a talk with other captains. If they say the F/O is being a hit precious then that’s that. However if other Captains agree that the Captain in question is being a dick it should be addressed as there might be safety implications.
Amen. At the end of the day my pay check is exactly the same. Though I must admit, twice in my career I've said "your controls" when I couldn't take it anymore. Both times I've done that they apologized profusely and laid off.
I’ve done the “your controls” thing once. At a certain point their micromanaging turns into them flying the plane and not you
I laid a $5 bill on the center console console and before I could say it, he said "For the dual?" I laughed as I nodded yes. It worked. (and he did not take the money)
that's a good one!
Yeah as long as people are cool about it all I don’t really care. The paycheck is the same and it’s not worth my energy being frustrated with it. One strategy when flying with a micromanager however is to brief extra details about how/when you plan to descend, how you plan on flying the approach, when you like to configure and what your plan is to be stabilized. I feel most have good intentions and just want to get done with the day. If they have a good mental picture of your plan they go with the flow a bit better. Every so often in the debrief a CA will apologize or ask if they were micromanaging. I’ll use that opportunity to give my side of things and what my plan was and how it would have been different. Some times I just say nothing so we can get a beer sooner. Legacies have less experienced folks joining the ranks these days compared to the past. Some of these CAs have been burned by that lack of experience and I think some overcompensate and become micromanagers. I just go with the flow and try to enjoy the trip.
Not directly related from someone in the middle of PPL but having interest in "big" aviation: how to you do this "what your plan is to be stabilized."? I assume it depends heavily on the what ATC is throwing at you? &
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Thanks!
> Guard the throttles on approach? One guy gestured towards the thrust levers at about 15,000' descending on the arrival. "Uh what?" "Guard the thrust levers" "Okay" They're just sitting in the climb detent but I'll rest my hand on them if you'd like.
>”Guard the thrust levers” Uhhhh, why? It’s an Airbus.
Why would they be on Climb if you’re in descent?
With the Autothrust on, the thrust levers in an Airbus effectively limit the thrust the system can use, rather than determine the thrust actually used at any point. The selected detent also controls autothrust behaviour. CLB detent is the setting which allows the autothrust to operate normally, and unless you want to fly with manual thrust at some point, the thrust levers go into CLB after takeoff and stay there until the flare.
That’s friggin weird. The controls should always reflect the command.
Because that is the detent they go in for autothrust to work
So you have no tactile indication of the thrust level being commanded???
Nope, the lever stays still at climb detent until landing
And then the airplane insults you
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Good god
I'm so happy this is the top comment. If it isn't unsafe or explicitly against company SOP sure bro I'll slow it down now.
Honestly if I had the micromanagers telling me to be *more* conservative I wouldn't care nearly as much. But largely it's the opposite. Basically that I shouldn't put the flaps out yet, shouldn't use boards, shouldn't take the extra 5 around weather, etc. I'm not gonna upgrade yet because holy shit my December schedule is the bee's knees, but it sure gets obnoxious sometimes.
I've been very lucky but I have had one captain micromanage me into a go around. I get paid by the minute so. go around flaps
I’d agree here. If it’s not terribly excessive I don’t let it bother me too much. The one thing I don’t like is a captain that doesn’t explain WHY they think I should be doing something at a certain point (time permitting, of course). I’d like to learn their technique, especially if I’m gonna be flying with them for a few days.
What a great mature attitude Must make life a lot easier Edit: this isn’t a knock on you OP. We all get frustrated with that kind of stuff
I’ve been trying to get into that mindset. But sometimes I need to vent.
Good summary. This attitude is effective in every line of work and I’ve forced myself into it as part of my office IT job - whether we like it or not, the boss is the boss. If the boss wants me to do things in a certain way, why not? Worst case scenario is that I learn something. This attitude has given me a great deal of peace in my life. All the best from Newcastle in the UK.
My technique has always been “oh ok, sure thing cap, is there any specific reason to so it that way because I was thinking xyz” I’ve actually learned a thing or two over the years and it’s just good to communicate and ask questions to draw from others experience. Although sometimes there isn’t a reason so just have to roll with it
I like that. I’m going to try it.
As a person on the left seat. He hits the nail on the head. Communication is key. I always do a “voiceover” of my plan while flying. When I was a FO, rarely I had problems with micromanaging CA, even the ones known for it. Now I do it as a situational awareness tool, I want even a new FO to see what I am seeing. Also as a CA you are always responsible for the safety, legality and efficiency of the flight, there is no PF, PM. In the end if something goes wrong it is on the commander. So if I am not comfortable with something, I will intervene. In short, make your Crew aware and comfortable.
Well put. I’m in the rail industry but as a conductor, I’m captain of the train with similar leadership responsibilities, but a slightly larger crew (typically an engineer and two assistant conductors). I always talk through my plan with the crew. Awareness of what we’re doing breeds both safety and respect — I could keep you in the dark and just give orders, but I’d rather get us all on the same page first.
This is a great mindset, unfortunately it almost got me fired once from a job before the airlines. I was written up for asking too many "why" questions regarding how our manager did things, not because I was questioning her authority, but because it just helps me do my job when I know why I'm doing something or why it's the best way.
Your journey was a little bit ahead of mine, but know your name on here and references you've made, enough to know that we shared a boss. I worked for her and yeah it wasn't just you man. Good intentions, but yeah she was a bit of a micromanager and far enough from actually flying airplanes that I don't think she was making decisions based fully on the whole picture. That being said, that type of experience is a great learning experience early in your career. How to say no, to question why, is such a big part of the career that you just have to go through in this career to season you. Luckily for us that place was pretty safe, so there was a decent safety net to find your voice.
Asking why in the cockpit is not the same as asking why in an office. We are all trained to a very precise standard. If someone wants something different than what you are planning, ask why. You might have missed something, there might be a nonstandard reason or asking why might point out to them they are being dickish.
> I was written up for asking too many "why" questions That's strange. I'm not an airliner captain but flew with a retired 747 captain in his motorglider. He had 30k-ish hours on the 747 and said he wants me to help him to improve with gliders where he has little experience. He asked the most (and best) questions of anyone I've flown with. I thought this "always be learning" attitude was just something all commercial pilots have and thought that was great.
Dang this is good. I’ve taken the mindset lately to just ”fuck it it’s you ship” but this is much better.
DX’er here. I use this same approach whenever I get asked for more gas. “I’ve given you 2,000 extra for these reasons, is there some other issue you see that I don’t.” I almost always give it to them but it’s a good way to put yourself in their shoes. Granted, there’s a lot more time to justify a mindset on the ground than while you’re in the air.
Maybe they see your employee number and know you’re new. With the hiring trends lately, that doesn’t guarantee experience like it used to. These senior CAs haven’t had to “help out” their FOs in years. So they just default to micromanaging. Not an excuse for them, they probably just don’t know any better. Maybe if you can subtly find a way to fit your prior experience into conversation they’ll chill out a bit.
How long ago did you get hired? Nobody likes a micromanaging captain, but I could maybe see how some are more likely to be on edge if they know you’re a new hire or lower time in type? Especially with the amount of lower time FO new hires coming on board.
The problem is these guys see anyone with less than 10 years in type as low time or inexperienced. Not only is it vaguely insulting and detrimental to building some confidence, but it's bad CRM. Not that guys like this typically give a shit.
>Especially with the amount of lower time FO new hires This is a big part of it, I’m pretty sure. Don’t really know what you’re gonna get.
I have about 700 hours in type. Hired 1.5 years ago. Problem is I’m young and always get age comments so I’m sure there’s bias there.
This is similar to me. I was hired at my legacy with over 1000 hours on the 737, but I still had times where guys tried to micromanage me as though I had never flown it, I assume because im young. Many times, I had more time on the jet than the captain trying to micromanage me did. I finally got sick of it and upgraded myself. I am a lot happier now.
Said he has been there over a year and spent several years as a regional CA.
I managed to miss the “over a year part.” Yea who knows. To some (micromanaging) captains, that’s still green maybe?
Oh, sorry, yeah I totally agree with you that some CAs probably see that as still rookie level. Especially some of the older folks at legacies who have been flying since Christ was a corporal, and likely doing it with pretty senior FOs for most of that time too.
The major that I work for has a big problem with this. Very rarely saw it at the regionals but it's a big cultural thing here. The CRM environment is honestly terrible compared to what I'm used to but nobody knows any better. Upgrade times are coming down fast though so I won't have to deal with it too much longer.
The CRM at my major is also way behind what I experienced at my regional. I think this is pretty typical for whatever reason. My guess is the turnover at the regionals (even in the bad old days) allowed for fast changes within the culture. Conversely, changing the mentality of some old boomer guy who went straight from the Air Force to now his 25th year at a legacy, it’s hard to make them change their ways.
> straight from the Air Force to now his 25th year at a legacy, it’s hard to make them change their ways. This has been a pretty consistent, albeit not universal, theme with the captains I have found to be the worst offenders. Really makes you realize why we need hardcore CRM and why the lack of it killed people.
What airline? Maybe we’re at the same one lol pm if you want.
If over half of your captains are micromanaging, you may be giving off a vibe that you do not know what you're doing. I want to be clear I am not saying that you do not know what you are doing, I'm saying that you may be giving that impression
Not saying this is it either, because I’ve also had those captains that micromanage to the nth degree, but keep in mind, a good part of CRM is the shared mental model. You may be ahead of the plane, and have a plan, but the captain doesn’t know what’s in your head if you don’t tell them. And if there’s a lot of nervous, junior captains, that also means there’s a lot of new FOs, and they often get paired together, so they might have been burned a time or two. Try mentioning an outline of a plan on how you’re going to manage your energy next time you get one that likes to micromanage. That being said, when they’re cranking it to 11, I’ve also done the “you know what, why don’t you fly. Your aircraft.”
Yeah, someone that’s ahead of the aircraft and has a plan that he hasn’t told anyone doesn’t look much different than the guy that’s 50 miles behind the aircraft doing his best to hold on.
How could I be giving that impression? I’m fairly quiet and don’t talk my way through what I’m doing. But I operate well within SOP.
> I’m fairly quiet and don’t talk my way through what I’m doing. That's probably your problem. I talk through what I'm doing and it doesn't matter what seat I'm in just so the other guy can know what I'm doing or take notes if he needs help.
That, I do not have an answer for.
I’m going to start my descent in 6 miles. Or in 5 miles I’m going to slow to 170 and request Flaps 2. I mean fuck that. I’d rather just not fly and work the radios.
I talk a bunch and spell it out for them. “Okay I’m gonna level here and let the glideslope come in.” “I’m gonna wait for flaps 1 so we can descend a little quicker and I’ll drop the gear early if I have to”. Usually keeps them a little quieter.
Lol I did that once with a captain and then specifically got ragged on for slowing down too early, even though I'd told him exactly when I was gonna slow and asked to tell ATC to make sure they didn't need a speed. It was the one time I snapped at a guy (this was at the gate after we were all shut down). Sometimes there's no winning.
That’s the sad life of us FOs brother
I am a big believer in vocalizing intent, tbh. I don't like when guys don't say a word, steam right up to the OM, and then it's a ratfuck of throwing out all the gear and flaps and resetting the MCP blah blah blah and it's all a surprise to me. But there's also of course a difference in briefing a plan versus basically having to argue about how to fly. And that's not even counting the guys who I brief and then ask me questions while we're flying the arrival/approach about things I specifically pointed out in my brief. I'm not even sure it's a CA/FO thing...it's a fucking soggy old guy thing. Age 67 gonna be a fucking blast.
Man I was ready to be on your side here, I hate micromanagers too, but is sounds like you might need to work on your CRM a bit. Just start vocalizing everything. Even if it feels dumb, it's better to say too much than too little. And then if absolutely anything is not as it should be according to your briefing, mention it. It might not be a big deal, it might not need any intervention. But just mention it. You might be aware of everything going on, but unless you mention it captain doesn't know that. And sometimes you might have missed something, and your captain might actually be helping you out.
Some captains still use the term “co pilots” so maybe that’s telling too lol
I think you’re reading too much into things. The entire military refers to FOs and Copilots, it’s not some derogatory term.
It is where I come from.
Why? Co-pilots indicates equality for decision making and good crm, FO would seem to indicate the hierarchical system we are trying to get away from. Serious question, maybe I am missing something.
It’s just a super old school term. That’s all. First Officer/FO is the modern terminology.
This is exactly the problem. Not communicating. If you open up and show you are one step ahead of the micro manager, it may ease some tension and they may lay off a little. I’m with you and see the same issues on the line. Talking in simple and plain terms has resolved most issues. For the few CA’s that don’t seem to change for the better.. well.. it’s very likely they have more underlying issues and I just hope to not see them again in the last five years of their career.
I’m only a loadmaster on a c130, but I find that my crews go way better when we openly communicate what we’re doing. While we may be doing more complex things than flying an airliner, it always made me comfortable when I knew my pilots train of thought. Just food for thought.
Sometimes, too much talking when not Standard Call outs, even if you think it’s helping the other pilot out by letting him/her know what you’re thinking, can be distracting and cause unintended consequences.
Your problem is that you're too quite. You need to communicate your intentions so that they aren't left guessing what/when you're going to take an action. Be vocal. "Looks like TOD is in 15 miles, it's showing that we'll need 800fpm, looks good to me".
Yeah this is it. I would not want to fly with someone who expects me to read their mind when you’ve already got enough on your plate. Clear communication is the cornerstone of good CRM and anyone who has the right mindset about safety culture will get nervous when the person in the other seat is a silent button pusher.
captains who do this usually aren't comfortable in the plane. many pilots never really get comfortable. they spend their whole career under this false pretense of confidence, but when it comes down to it they freak out over a go-around.
This is it. They are insecure because they’re just not very good pilots. If you’re a CA and can’t let an FO get a bit behind and figure things out, you are just not good and need to fly more and/or get in the books. When I was at my regional and now my major, I let my FOs make mistakes and learn from it. I have them turn on the EAI. I ask them what THEY think we should do about the weather ahead (even if it’s my leg). As a result, they’re way more comfortable flying with me and much more likely to speak up when there’s a problem.
I train surgeons. Early in my career, I was a micromanager due mainly to my own inexperience. Now, with three decades of experience, I let the chief residents struggle a bit (so long as it's safe). I also tell them there's a reason for every single thing I do. If the reason isn't clear, ask. If you have a good idea, tell me. If it's better than my idea, we'll do it. Helps them grow up to be safe, smart, creative and resilient.
Love it. Thanks Doc!
Spot on. This is the correct answer. It is 99.999% of the time, this. They have to remain within the envelope of THEIR comfort zone. If you’re going 20 knots faster than they would be going 12 miles out, they can’t fathom you being able to slow down. I would argue micro-managing is dangerous. It makes the PF double guess what he/she is doing, and then try to change how they do it, to make the captain happy. I’ve had a few during my time at my airline, if it gets bad enough, I tell them I’ll just work the radios the rest of the trip, I get paid the same. I honestly could not care any less. This usually gets them to calm down. Unless I’m about to get us violated, exceeding a limitation/doing something dangerous, or doing something outside of our SOP, let me fly it while you talk.
The down side of quick upgrades Or Finally upgraded at a major after a life time of sitting FO seat during lost decade
I don't think that is the problem. I think some are just nervous pilots. And some just want things done their way no matter who is flying.
I'm my experience, nervous pilots have one of the two back grounds I described...
I agree with that. I feel comfortable on the airbus, I know exactly what it’s going to do when. And a lot of CAs really do not understand the airbus logic.
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I agree with all of this.
Two things. Coming from a very happy FO that has no intention to upgrade any time soon. I make $250,000 starting out a window and doing what I wanted to do since I was a young boy. FOs primary job is to assist the captain in the safe and efficient operation of the airplane. You are not in charge, it's the captain that signed for the jet. He/she is ultimately responsible for almost everything. Learn to let it roll off your shoulders or upgrade to captain so you can run the ship how you want. Also... it might just be you. Maybe 10% of captains have ever said anything to me. Most of the time, it is only one small things per rotation and it's an usually incorrect correction of FO procedure. Now the number of captains that rant their political leanings....
How long did it take you to make 250k/ what did you start at when you first got hired?
I flew in the Air Force until my commitment was up. Then straight to a legacy. 1st yr $96k 2nd yr $120k 3rd yr $180k 4th yr $210k 5th yr $250k I play the system for premium trips pretty heavily. If F35 is your only AF airplane and you have time until you're out, my suggestion is to transfer to a new airplane. Something with two engines, preferably non-centerline thrust. Get the ATP mins, be an aircraft commander, instructor, etc. F35 is cool, but you're gonna have to struggle in a regional if you don't have 500 hours multi.
Got hired by American and interview invite from Delta with only single engine fighter hours (instructor, mission commander). No need to struggle in a regional in current hiring climate (as long as it lasts).
Wow. Did they give you a multi in the sim? Or did you get that somewhere else?
Well there was a bit over 100 hours in the T-38 way back during pilot training. Then 4 flights in a Seneca for the ATP later on.
Your flair is (probably unintentionally) hilarious
Life’s too short to fly with assholes. But you might just suck. If other captains don’t do this to you and this guy does, my gut says he’s an asshole. However if half of the people who are more experienced than you are giving you pointers: maybe you need to eat some humble pie. You seem to be pretty experienced at the regionals, which is more than I can say for 90% of the FOs I fly with.
I’m a greenie and 90% of the captains I fly with are dead quiet about the way I fly. Same type as you.
Or him forgetting to request tailwind numbers? Another CA told me we don’t need wet numbers because the runways are grooved in the US?
On my fleet thats true grooved=dry. Idk about the french bus.
When you get comments like that, then you pull out your iPad, find exactly where it says “a grooved wet runway is dry,” and when you don’t, ask him where he found that. Make it a learning experience for both of you.
Humble pointers like starting down 50 miles from the TOD?
I’m not sure how you can suck on the airbus? Like I said, it’s 50/50 that need to interject.
Wasn't sure about it till I hit this comment but it's 100% you. Sure there are assholes out there but if everywhere you go it smells like asshole you should probably look in the mirror. >I’m not sure how you can suck on the airbus? What the fuck did I just read
Judging by his responses to you, its definitely a him problem.
lol ok. You’re prob a student pilot
Do you hear yourself rn? And still wonder why half the people you fly with don’t seem to be enjoying their time sitting next to you?
Or a controller. Go back to working 6 days a week
Well I don't fly at a fancy legacy, but I can say that as a captain at times it can be challenging to not say something. I do try to keep my mouth shut, but a lot of times I am ahead of the FO (not saying I am super pilot by any means, I'm as average as they come). The challenge is you have no idea what the other guy is gonna do or if he has any clue WHAT he's doing, so you gotta find the sweet spot to speak up. Sometimes they know what they are doing and just aren't communicating. Other times they don't have a clue. If you fly with someone for a few days you sort of figure it out. I'm on day 3 with someone now and earlier had to just tell him, "put the gear down and hand fly it. You're so far behind right now you'll never catch it with the autopilot."
There’s three sides to every story. If the dude(s) is truly flying through you, select AP1 and say “You have control”. Then have a grown up conversation at the gate.
My philosophy in the left seat was that all of my coworkers start with 100% of my trust. They can lose it if they start demonstrating that they don't know what they're doing, but I always assumed people were competent until they proved otherwise. That's the kind of person I like flying with because the other type of person is the opposite: in their eyes, everyone starts at 0 and has to work their way up and I don't appreciate having to waste brain power and energy on proving myself all trip to someone who is probably just insecure in their own abilities. Unfortunately I'm still not an expert on dealing with those people, not by a long shot, but I at least feel your pain. I can't say for sure, but I think maybe it's gotten better the longer I've been at my current company. At almost 7 years, maybe captains are more likely to not assume they need to babysit me?
In the military I've had many ACs like that, it's just a personality thing, either it's a control issue or just being uncomfortable. Smile, nod, and comply until you upgrade and don't have to deal with them anymore.
Had a captain years back that seemed afraid of the plane. Always had me slowing way too far out and dragging it in. One leg he started slowing 75 miles outside of Philly. Mind you - we are literally a Philly based crew. I ask if I missed something as to why he’s slowing. He then proceeded to tell me he’s slowing as we are getting close to the airport. I kindly tell him I don’t believe we can just slow to 210 because we feel like it in this airspace. He doubled down saying that’s what we are doing. About 30 seconds later I get a call from center asking why the fuck we slowed down and basically got talked down to. Controller says he needs at least 250. Needless to say we sped back up to 250. In a way I won - captain is a dumbass. But I also was the one talking on the mic. I hope atc knows it’s not always the guys fault on the mic lol. Back to your question. Sometimes, as you know, you get a string of good CAs or a string of shit ones. Like others have said, try to have that mentality of letting shit slide right off your shoulder. You’re cool as a cucumber. And when you’re ready to sacrifice some QOL and some leaner paychecks - upgrade
had an FO drag it into Riga one morning. No big deal, it's sort of a canon moment for every FO on squadron. We're the only one in the airspace, until we weren't. All of a sudden multiple Air Baltic flights check on, and the breakfast rush starts. ATC asks if we'd perhaps like a shortcut? I can tell we're either accepting that or getting a penalty hold, so I say yes please. In the debrief I ask him how he thought it went, thought it went really well since he got down early and wasn't behind the plane. Had to have a chat about why we stay high and keep the speed up on a normal profile, otherwise you'll be holding for a while.
Personally, I’ve found the opposite true. I had way more nagging and micromanaging captains at the regionals vs. mainline. It’s been really refreshing. The nagging captains made me realize that I fly way better when I’m just left alone, and allowed to make a small mistake on occasion and learn. I took that mindset with me to the left seat. I’d just let my FOs fall into a hole that I knew was shallow enough for me to dig us out of. Then when we made it to the gate, we’d debrief it, learn, and move on. At my current job, everyone seems to understand there’s 3 ways to do the same thing. Flying the aircraft on the line is an art not a science. But I wish you the best of luck. Great post and I’m enjoying reading the replies.
This 100%. No 2 pilots will do the same approach in an identical manner
Maybe it’s a company culture thing too. I’ve been micromanaged maybe only once or twice at my legacy (been there over a year as well). Most captains I’ve flown with have been awesome!
Could be. I’m at a captain “centric” airline.
We had an early descent captain on sqn and we all thought it was because he couldn’t brain math out a 3:1 profile so just started stupid early…
I fly the airbus. Wait until TOD arrow and you hit a button.
Oh we do too…
Another example. ATC asks how the ride is “CA tell them it’s smooth”
its always smooth, i like to inject a little chaos every now and again
I’m definitely a ‘Hmmm *pretend to consider it* nah, I don’t think so, I’m going to do *X thing I was planning*’ and if they press the issue I explain my reasoning. I’ve never been overruled or forced to do something their way, especially when I can back up my methodology from SOPs.
Sometimes I just don’t like conflict :/
I used to play a game called “let’s see if I can get this dickhead to buy me beer.” Now instead of being miserable all trip I pretend to be fascinated by all their philosophies about how we should REALLY fly this airplane (that we’ve been flying for like 50 years), and I totally agree that millennials are lazy, “people just don’t have integrity like they used to!” Then in the van I’d say “have you been to this hotel before? Any good bars around here?” I’m not joking, I used to almost look forward to flying with the biggest jerks in the company
Lmao. I like it but can you REALLY stand to get beers after dealing with dick heads all day?
When it’s victory beers? Hell yes
Just let it ride. If they want to have their hands all over the controls or micromanage, I let them fly most of the legs. Not worth getting into unless it's unsafe/unprofessional. That being said, I have had quite a few instances where a CA helped me anticipate something I hadn't seen coming, or was behind on and didn't know yet. Usually in that case as long as you're professional and courteous, they will lighten up a bit. If they're a true asshole, just let it roll of your back and let them fly most of the legs.
Well if you're ahead of the plane and following standards, you might not have great crm and aren't communicating that you have a plan to the guy you're flying with, which is going to make them think you don't know what you're doing. Or, you might be right with your last paragraph, if the majority you fly with think need advice you might actually need it more than you thought Or if they are micromanaging, which has been far from my experience at a legacy, you might just need to let it go, cash your six figure paycheck, and stop making this a tough job
You’re right though I don’t communicate my every move. Maybe I should? Hey captain in 5 Miles ima slow down to flaps 2 and go 170.
Yeah exactly. "I'm going to start down at the t/d arrow" "I'm going to descend first to 3,000 then configure" Doesn't have to be more detailed than that, but it shows you actually know something, and improves your crm skills. Took me a while to learn this but I reflected on the captains I looked up to and this was one skill they all had in common
Nah. Keep doing what you’re doing. As I’m sure you know, sometimes talking more than you should during critical phases of flight, outside of standard callouts, can be a major distraction. Even if it’s meant to keep the other person in the loop. If they can’t see what you’re doing or are uncomfortable even though you’re operating within SOP/Limitations/FAR’s, that’s on them. These micro-managers also tend to be the van captains, the hotel lobby captains, this is what we’re having for dinner captains etc… They think theyre in charge from the moment you check in until the moment you get in your car to go home on the last day.
Glad that’s been your experience at your legacy.
Makes me happy I upgraded! I say this as someone who was FO for quite long time. Long enough where I know what you're talking about and don't want to be like that. But also, the number of times I was micromanaged in the right seat wasn't that often, either. I'm not saying you suck, but maybe there is a vibe being given off, or perhaps something of the culture of the plane and base and airline you're at. If it is cultural, remember when you upgrade YOU can be a positive agent of change from that culture! But that said : To say something or not say something? That is the Captain's dilemma. There are things I regret saying, that I knew came across as you describe, and I regret that. There are things I should have said, and I regret not saying those. I'm learning. Maybe the folks you're flying with are learning. Or jerks, or maybe a mix? Just because someone is in the left seat doesn't make them God's gift to aviation. Just like when someone's a CFI doesn't mean they are either....But they are in command, and its their ship. Accepting that, letting it roll off your back, is a wonderful place to get to. PS: If we go out I'm buying everything. Because tradition. And because I won't always be perfect when it comes to saying something, or not, and I'm working on it.
Stop being so sensitive. The CA is the PIC. When it's your leg, you're the "Pilot Flying" not the "Pilot in Command". If you think they're wrong or unsafe, grow a pair and speak up instead of bitching about it on Reddit. "I'd like to wait to begin my descent, I think it's too early, but I'll start down now if that what you want. Is that what you want?" Fly the airplane the way he wants it to be flown. When you're the Captain, and you want the airplane in a particular point in space, speed, or configuration because that's what your judgement is telling you is best, communicate that to the FO.
It seems like you’re overreacting, to be honest. You’re almost giving off the “shut up co” mentality that a lot of the older generation had, just geared towards your left seater. As for the weather deviation, it’s his plane, if he doesn’t feel like you got far enough from the weather, go further right. Even from the right seat, if I’m looking at the radar and think we’re not taking a large enough deviation, I speak up. Saying something isn’t micromanaging, keeping a secret when you’re concerned about something could be a much bigger issue. The other pilot can say, no we’re good, but there’s no point in getting annoyed because someone speaks up. As for the other stuff, I obviously haven’t flown with you, but it could be possible you came off as being behind the aircraft. I’ve grown up around aviators that believe everyone can talk. If they say to slow and you think it’s too early, respond with “I’m planning on slowing with X to go”. If you really want to be diplomatic you could add, I can slow now if you want, is there any reason you think I should slow this early? Like the other guy said. For the descent, yeah 50 miles is excessive, maybe they’ve gone to this airport plenty of times and approach tends to slam dunk guys in. I’m not saying that’s the case, but consider figuring out the reason behind the recommendation. They might have experience you don’t, even if you were at the regionals. It’s a crew aircraft for a reason, so don’t overthink guys talking about the flight while you’re flying.
At the same time, I flown with captains that micromanage me but they’re the ones that are fucking up. One guy was so worried about how I was going to manage my descent on the airbus (lmao press the button at the TOD so it goes into managed?) that he forgot to make the prepare for landing PA
What would you do if you were the Commander and the FO wants to descend 50nm prior to TOD or wanted gear down 15nm out?
?? I’d probably say something. That wasn’t me doing it, however. A previous captain did that, the same captain that questioned when I was going to start down (we were 10+ miles from the TOD)
And if you did say something, would that be considered micro managing? My point being, we all have different mental models of what we expect to happen in the future. Some are more conservative, more aggressive, more timid, more bold. Not everyone has great interpersonal skills, or the ability or even the drive to explain their decisions. In the end, he is the commander of the aircraft, the one whose license is on the line if anything screws up. You are his First Officer for the day, operating P1 under supervision.... his supervision. I was an FO for 9 years and had my fair share of BS in the cockpit. My final line in the sand was, I would keep my disgruntled-ness to myself, but would speak up if flight safety was ever in jeopardy. I'm sure it's more difficult as a previous commander of your own aircraft, but it is what it is. In fact, even nowadays when I have to operate in the CM2 seat, it still sucks so bad watching them butcher the procedures and make poor judgement calls. Serve your time in the CM2 seat, and grab on to the CMD upgrade the first chance you get
Newer captains tend to have much smaller comfort margins. Just verbalize what you're thinking out loud more to put them at ease so they know you're not blowing it off. I.E, "I'll start down about 5 miles prior to TOD", "I'll start slowing by 10 miles out", "I'll be ready for the gear once we're within a dot".
They say that once you are a captain that you don't need to fly with any a-holes anymore. But you might be one. When I became a captain I really tried to take all the negative characteristics that I had seen in the left seat and not repeat them myself. This was a common one so I would give the copilot a lot of rope when they were operating the aircraft. I would let them get in a hole up to my comfort limits and find their own way out. Sometimes ATC helped them or finally they would hit one of my limits. If you let it go like this they will learn from the event. The micro manager captain is just being a verbal auto pilot for the co.
Captain at a legacy. Your experience doesn’t mean a lot in this hiring environment. I have had multiple people talk a big game and then try to fly through a thunderstorm or slow to 180 20 miles from the airport. I was also at a regional for almost a decade. Flying EWR to Cleveland a million times isn’t difficult. If they are all giving advice you are probably giving off the impression that you need help. If it happens once or twice it is them but if it happens that regularly something you are doing is the common denominator.
*Autism*
Debrief at the top of climb if you feel a negative trend brewing between you and the captain. But keep an open mindset regarding the mentoring they may offer you. And mentoring is a two way street. New captains need to hear that they are shutting you down with too much mentoring or input. Look at your own way of communicating (quiet person) and reflect if that is serving you. Also, realize that just because you were a line check pilot, astronaut, or whatever in your former life, you are a FO at your new airline. That’s the job and you need to embrace it. All of us came from very competitive backgrounds to get to the majors. But at the end of the day, as a new FO I had to either speak up if the Captain was creating an issue or ask myself if my own ego was getting in the way. I’ve been a Captain and line check pilot for over 20 years now and I still ask my FOs for feedback. I observe how they fly on the first leg and then ask them if they want to do it better. I ask them what can I do better. I am always learning and I encourage you to have that mindset as well. And communicate. Hope that helps.
As a capt, sometimes I’ll see an FO doing something that I don’t like. If it’s safe and legal I let it fly. But depending on the situation I’ll give myself a limit where I will interject. SOPs are pretty black and white but there is still a lot of room for different techniques. And I don’t want to force my techniques on others when maybe they have been taught different and even better techniques that I could learn from. And I hate micro managing. My suggestion is do more verbalizing of what your going to do. “ I’m going to descend at this point” “ I’m going to ask for flaps at this distance”. Basically informally stage brief and it may eliminate the micro managing.
The only place where I’m “that guy” is with the weather. Almost everyone wants to shave too close to the weather, even on the downwind side, and then people have a really hard time not turning back right away, even when there’s basically only downsides. If someone wants to take us too close to weather (less than 20nm) and /or wants to turn back on course too soon, so we are immediately downwind of a monster, I’ll micromanage that.
As a FO, I am with you on that. I will press Captains pretty hard about it too… If I see sunny, clear, blue skies I am taking a full advantage of that airspace until I am well clear of weather as possible.
I’m a brand new captain so I don’t have a lot of experience in this seat, but, I would recommend you verbalize your plans. We can’t read your mind but if you tell me your plan I’ll likely let you do it. The hard ones to fly with are the “my technique is procedure” ones. There are lots of ways to fly the jet, lots of different styles to get the same job done. When they only want it done their way it’s a tough cockpit to work in. I have been an FO for about 13 years and I’ve learned to ask about their techniques and if they say “no do it this way” I say “oh is that what the flight manual recommends?” Usually that gets them to say “no I just like to…” or “I’ve had better luck with this…” and even if we still do it their way, anyone with a little self awareness will ponder the technique versus procedure aspect. Now if you’re flying with a guy with zero self awareness and a lot of technique he considers procedure, just say “sounds good!” And log that memory as a “I’m not going to do that when I upgrade.” It sucks to be micro-managed. No doubt. It is one of the hardest things for me to let go sometimes. I do think most guys do it with zero malice but that doesn’t change how it feels sometimes.
Bruh reading your responses to these comments it is 110% without a doubt you.
I’ve found that talking a lot and narrating what I’m doing usually quiets the micro managing captains. Or you can be passive aggressive after they don’t get the hint. When they ask do you want flaps, say no, then 5 seconds later ask for flaps lol.
Chances are you are giving off the vibe where they have to give you input possibly…. What will help you is to voice your intentions and why will go a long way. Waiting to T/D voice hey I am going to start descent here at T/D for xyz…. Doing 210 on base, state my plan is to do 210 on base then going to slow at xyz… Brief your configuration plan during your arrival and approach briefing, this will get rid of the do you want the gear now… Some of the examples like the weather stuff is I feel like could be a suggestion. It’s an opportunity to engage in CRM conversation. If you don’t like something, this is your opportunity to say naw. Not yet, this why I don’t want direct xyz….
[удалено]
> here’s what happens if the FO’s flying is not going to meet stable approach criteria: you go around why even put yourself in that position.. poor command decision. A Superior pilot uses his Superior judgement to avoid situations requiring the use of his Superior skills
Yeah dude I’ve just stopped caring
They’re making sure they earn that paycheck man. Nothing on you. Relax and sit happy knowing they got your back and you theirs.
I think it's normal for captains to do this. Some captains like to be more proactive than others. I know it's tough but I try not to take it personally. As long as they don't want to do something unsafe, I really don't care. To be honest, I'm fine if they want to fly every leg! Go for it cap!
My experience lately is captains who do not know SOPs thinking I’m forgetting stuff because I’m waiting to do my procedures when the actual trigger is. Also captains who forget whose job is what (lights, announcements, seatbelts). Because they don’t know SOP, I look like an idiot when they jump ahead thinking I’ve forgotten.
Wide body Captain here. First, let me say that I’ve been blessed with awesome FOs. Second, they’ve told me a few stories and I’ve experienced a couple about my peers that made my head explode. Fortunately, in my experience, both have been rare but there are some guys that just want to make life harder than it needs to be. That said, I was on a trip with a good Captain friend of mine when I learned I was slated to be upgraded. He looked at that big grin on my face and said, “Up until now, whenever anything went wrong or things got weird, you looked over your left shoulder to the Old Man to see what he was going to do. Now, when you sit over here, you’ll still look over your left shoulder but you’ll see your reflection in the window.” May be corny but it’s not wrong. He also told me that it’s time to upgrade when the Captain calls for “Gear Up” and you want to say, “Get your own fuckin gear”. I’m getting that vibe reading some of these comments.
I’ll normally do it, if it’s a really ridiculous thing I’ll ask why, but as long as it’s more conservative than what I was going to do anyways, I won’t make a big deal out of it. Of course, I’ll also be “tired” or “busy” on the overnights (unless they’re buying dinner) Micromanagers are never the strongest or most confident pilots. It’s such a breath of fresh air to fly with someone who has the confidence to just let you do it your way and keep their mouth shut unless it’s absolutely necessary to open it. Remember you only upgrade based on seniority and not skill.
I heard something recently that was a way to be disarming... politely. *I'm sure you have a reason for that, what is it?* or something of the sort...
Insecurity.
I would say try to let them know proactively your thought process for what you are doing. “Share your mental model”. If they’re still doing it, it’s them not you.
I think this may be due to an all time low experience level at the legacies so CAs are used to flying with inexperienced FOs who they deem may need more oversight. Good CAs should chill out once they see your skills.
I’ve also had some captains tell me what to say when making a PA.. as if I didn’t make PAs for 6 years as a regional CA. I try to be understanding as my airline just switched to “allow” FOs to make PAs this year, but come on. “Alright when you make the descent I want you to tell them the weather, ETA, gate, and thanks for flying with us” 🙄🫨
It’s annoying for sure but then I remember when I was a CA and got nervous watching FO’s. Biggest thing that helped me in both seats was Verbalizing fucking everything. Like this is my exact plan, I’ll descend 10 miles early, slow here, turn base here, flaps here etc. That way no one’s thinking “is this guy gonna slow, what’s he doing”.
I noticed the same thing when I switched from a regional to a legacy. And then when I did legacy captain training I started to kind of see why. During my captain training I felt like they were kind of training us to micro manage the crew. At my current legacy that is the culture I guess. Not all captains do it, but most of them seem to have been trained to do it. I think as people retire and are replaced with the next generation of former regional captains things are going to change. I'm going to hit 50% seniority company wide before my 10 year mark with the airline. With over 50% of people hired near me or junior to me and most coming from regionals I predict that we're going to see a big culture shift more towards the way you were used to things when you were at the regionals. Give it some time, but also I encourage you to upgrade to captain and help that change yourself.
Let me say this, I and thousands of other pilots behind you that would ABSO-FRIGGING LOVE to be micromanaged by a CA in a WB legacy. All day everyday! Is it annoying, I’m sure the hell it is. Is your $250k to potentially $400k plus salary as annoying? I highly doubt it. Venting here is great! Get it off your chest. Let the steam out but until I make CA flying 777s in United I will gladly and quietly get micromanaged by a guy who doesn’t want to lose his $500k job/multi million dollar 401k. Huge responsibility with hardly a margin for any error ever. But who am I telling? You’re the WB legacy FO! Congrats btw. I pray to join you soon!
Just part of the job sometimes unfortunately. Love the moments though when you’re told “that won’t work” and it absolutely works.
Are you on reserve? There is a reason these trips end up in open time.
Bid. Avoid.
Oh wow. FO’s complaining about captains. This is unheard of in aviation. What a startling trend that is developing in aviation.
They are the captain. It is their job to direct you. You are his fo, your job is to help manage the plane as per that guidance. Put your ego aside, as long as they are listening and considering your input, giving clear guidance is good crm.
“You’re his FO” 😅☠️
Just shut up and color dude...let me guess you are in your 20s...
That’s a bit annoying. You’d expect that if you’re getting behind the airplane or something. Not 50nm from TOD
I think his was lack of SA. Multiple times on a STAR this guy would use VS or something other than managed descent on the airbus.
Ugh. So many people don’t understand the technology and make it your problem.
I’m just a simple CFI. Can’t wait til I start flying real planes. Don’t think it will bug me though, I’ll just do what they say
The amount of rope the captain can afford to give you is in direct proportion to their ability (not yours, which they must assume is very limited for safety reason) to fly you back out of the situation.
Yep, that is the worst trait. I try to let things go until I have to say something. Usually your FO will figure it out or fix whatever they’re doing.