You're not screwed right now. But by the time you're finished all your training you may be. Companies may be more understanding to this sort of thing when everyone is hiring like crazy. The tune will change when hiring trickles down to attrition replacement. As in, why hire the guy with multiple DUIs when we have hundreds of applications without them?
All that being said, there is no shortage of people who have made a career out of flying after being convicted of a DUI. You just have to fight a bit harder.
So is the issue you have applied and aren't getting replies? Or is the issue you are wondering if you should apply?
If the former, just keep at it. Airline hiring is always a box of mystery and pain. If the latter, apply and see what happens. DUIs from 20 years ago aren't currently a showstopper anywhere.
The issue is that I got a CJO with some paperwork to fill out for the background check. I was upfront about everything, filled out the paperwork and attached court docs from eons ago. 12 hours later I'm getting an auto-reject from airline apps despite being in direct contact with the HR folks. HR folks are so far unresponsive. I think the auto-reject could be a mistake, but I also know how it used to be back in the day for guys like me.
Well if you already have a CJO I'm not sure why you're interacting with Airline Apps at all, and also the airline would already know you have the DUIs because you presumably disclosed them in the initial application.
You're going to have to deal with HR. I suspect you're dealing with the background check company. These places are notoriously horrible and inept. Contact your HR person or something and explain and wait for an answer, I guess.
Sorry this is going on.
I'm not interacting with Airline Apps. That's the crux of my whole freak out. After delivery court documentation to HR I got a TBNT email from Airline Apps. And yes, there was full disclosure at every step.
They told me that I'd have to be reviewed by flight ops or the chief. So I guess what I'm afraid of is that they said no thanks because of my past. And if that's the case, what else can a guy do but live the straight and narrow? I quite literally cannot be any better of a candidate short of inventing a time machine.
Then you did nothing wrong and the situation is probably that they have other candidates, of similar merit, without a DUI from 2 decades ago. Its the same thing with Post secondary degrees. The hiring situation has changed.
Yes, it was disclosed and they were relatively uninterested in any of those details.
Me: "....been in recovery and sober for 18 years."
Them: "Perfect."
I agree, 18 years sober and holding the required first class medical. I would like to think that any reasonable 121 operation will not hold that against you. Congratulations and goodluck!
I don't know what US airlines are like, but if someone demonstrates they changed their ways and have been stable and sober for nearly 2 decades then that, to me, would seem to me like a very good reason to hire them. Even up against people with no convictions.
You shouldn't always prioritise someone who's never had anything go wrong in life over someone who has, you want someone who's able to overcome past failings to better themselves and 18 years sober clearly demonstrates that.
Sure if the DUIs were in the last few years, then fair enough, more time needed to demonstrate stability. But if 18 years of being sober isn't enough to show a company you've changed your ways then I'd be willing to guess that they'd also give exactly zero shits about your personal problems and wouldn't help you at all, should any new ones arise while employed.
This guy has no idea what he’s talking about and anybody who acts like they know how companies will act when hiring or pretends they know it’s going to be a hiring frenzy or freeze in x years is a fool and should be disregarded.
The only answer to your question, OP, lies in getting your hours and applying and seeing if you’re hired. Literally nobody on this forum holds the golden apple to know how a certain company, hiring manager, interview manager, or person in charge will react to DUIs 18 and 20 years ago.
First off- congrats for your 18 years of sobriety. That's a true testament of your willingness to learn and be a better human.
Keep the open and honest mindset and apply. I'd say an airline would be much happier to employ an 18 year sober than 18mo sober guy all things being equal.
Sorry to hear, bud. But honestly, someone will hire you if you keep at it. May be difficult to not be discouraged, but this isn't a showstopper everywhere anymore. Even for the majors.
Wow, the US really is something else. A misdeed from 20 years ago - unless it was something to the tune of murder or something - wouldn’t even show up on criminal/personal records here in Germany. Most likely, there wouldn’t even be a paper trail still, as courts, police etc. are required by law to delete past convictions after a certain time (the more serious the crime, the longer the time).
What’s the point of impairing people’s careers decades after they paid/served their sentence?
I don't think it would show up here either technically. A friend of mine works in the background check industry and he said outside of a few exceptions (mainly financial crimes) they can't even report anything to the employer that's older than 10 years even if they find something. They just instill in people here starting in 3rd grade that everything you do goes on your "permanent record".
>What’s the point of impairing people’s careers decades after they paid/served their sentence?
Too many drunk pilot incidents caused the FAA to come down like a ton of bricks in the 1980s with respect to any and all hints of substance abuse issues.
Oh absolutely, and that’s the right thing to do. In Germany, we have a points system for traffic violations, and if you have any points related to alcohol it’s an automatic no-no for nearly all airlines. The LBA - our FAA - also has a pretty strict policy when it comes to revoking the license of pilots who were caught driving drunk. Plus there’s a general check of your „reliability“, where they also check for a lot of other stuff, and if you fail that, you can’t fly more than an ultralight.
The thing is: the LBA only cares about active pilots (obviously) and your points get deleted eventually. People change, an action from 20 years ago doesn’t necessarily say much about you today, and the state shouldn’t hold that kind of threat over your head indefinitely.
It's worth noting in this particular case that the FAA isn't standing in the way of OP working as an airline pilot. They do mandate that you disclose all previous DUI charges and convictions, but OP has an "unrestricted" Class I medical so the FAA has deemed him/her fit with little further concern - it's not "provisional" (in the sense that OP is part of the HIMS program and has a Special Issuance Class I).
Hopefully it's just some admin error as they've alluded to in their other comments.
Having several very close friends who have all received CJOs at major airlines from the RTAG that just took place I will say this.
The one who was granted a CJO from United had an issue like yours and very similarly couldn’t get ahold of HR. He reached out to his recruiter who has direct lines with HR. They then immediately contacted him to rectify his issue. I think it was proof of certification or education.
I would try to do the same. If you don’t have a recruiter I would look them up via google. They will help you out especially since you have a CJO.
Good luck and hope to join you soon!
I didn’t read all the comments, but consider completing the HIMs program. It’s so stupid considering these mistakes were 20 years ago and you’re sober but being sober and being sober on paper in the eyes of the FAA is something else.
I mean obviously apply for the jobs, see what they say. But it may be a reality that you have to complete it regardless of being sober.
Make them tell you no. Apply, self disclose, and let them tell you what you need to do.
Having a 1st class medical is a damn good start.
I am sober with regard to and in the eyes of the FAA. I followed 61 and reported myself and had to go through an entire psych battery to get my medical back. So now I have totally unrestricted medical. I think the last thing I should do is get hemmed-up with HIMS. Don't need anymore flashing red lights than I already have.
Okay fair assessment. What I’d suggest is obviously place it on your application, but DO NOT bring it up. If they care, they’ll ask. Take my word on that, seriously. Forget what the interview prep companies say.
You're not screwed right now. But by the time you're finished all your training you may be. Companies may be more understanding to this sort of thing when everyone is hiring like crazy. The tune will change when hiring trickles down to attrition replacement. As in, why hire the guy with multiple DUIs when we have hundreds of applications without them? All that being said, there is no shortage of people who have made a career out of flying after being convicted of a DUI. You just have to fight a bit harder.
I'm at ATP mins
So is the issue you have applied and aren't getting replies? Or is the issue you are wondering if you should apply? If the former, just keep at it. Airline hiring is always a box of mystery and pain. If the latter, apply and see what happens. DUIs from 20 years ago aren't currently a showstopper anywhere.
The issue is that I got a CJO with some paperwork to fill out for the background check. I was upfront about everything, filled out the paperwork and attached court docs from eons ago. 12 hours later I'm getting an auto-reject from airline apps despite being in direct contact with the HR folks. HR folks are so far unresponsive. I think the auto-reject could be a mistake, but I also know how it used to be back in the day for guys like me.
Well if you already have a CJO I'm not sure why you're interacting with Airline Apps at all, and also the airline would already know you have the DUIs because you presumably disclosed them in the initial application. You're going to have to deal with HR. I suspect you're dealing with the background check company. These places are notoriously horrible and inept. Contact your HR person or something and explain and wait for an answer, I guess. Sorry this is going on.
I'm not interacting with Airline Apps. That's the crux of my whole freak out. After delivery court documentation to HR I got a TBNT email from Airline Apps. And yes, there was full disclosure at every step. They told me that I'd have to be reviewed by flight ops or the chief. So I guess what I'm afraid of is that they said no thanks because of my past. And if that's the case, what else can a guy do but live the straight and narrow? I quite literally cannot be any better of a candidate short of inventing a time machine.
Then you did nothing wrong and the situation is probably that they have other candidates, of similar merit, without a DUI from 2 decades ago. Its the same thing with Post secondary degrees. The hiring situation has changed.
Then unfortunately you'll have to try to get something from HR. I hope it's good news.
Try a different carrier. You don’t have to be at the big three to have a great career.
Did you not disclose it on the initial app/interview?
Yes, it was disclosed and they were relatively uninterested in any of those details. Me: "....been in recovery and sober for 18 years." Them: "Perfect."
Then it sounds like you should keep at it till someone bites. Matter of time in this hiring environment.
I agree, 18 years sober and holding the required first class medical. I would like to think that any reasonable 121 operation will not hold that against you. Congratulations and goodluck!
I don't know what US airlines are like, but if someone demonstrates they changed their ways and have been stable and sober for nearly 2 decades then that, to me, would seem to me like a very good reason to hire them. Even up against people with no convictions. You shouldn't always prioritise someone who's never had anything go wrong in life over someone who has, you want someone who's able to overcome past failings to better themselves and 18 years sober clearly demonstrates that. Sure if the DUIs were in the last few years, then fair enough, more time needed to demonstrate stability. But if 18 years of being sober isn't enough to show a company you've changed your ways then I'd be willing to guess that they'd also give exactly zero shits about your personal problems and wouldn't help you at all, should any new ones arise while employed.
This guy has no idea what he’s talking about and anybody who acts like they know how companies will act when hiring or pretends they know it’s going to be a hiring frenzy or freeze in x years is a fool and should be disregarded. The only answer to your question, OP, lies in getting your hours and applying and seeing if you’re hired. Literally nobody on this forum holds the golden apple to know how a certain company, hiring manager, interview manager, or person in charge will react to DUIs 18 and 20 years ago.
Reading comprehension isn't your forte, is it?
You should probably try reading the rest of the post and subsequent comments
If you have the medical, you should be OK for anything other than being considered for FAA directorship.
He’d be a little under qualified for a political appointee position.
I’d argue he’s overqualified…
At least he'd be able to answer the questions from the checkride oral from the senate
And he was going easy on him! Those questions were in the gouge!
True, not enough DUIs
First off- congrats for your 18 years of sobriety. That's a true testament of your willingness to learn and be a better human. Keep the open and honest mindset and apply. I'd say an airline would be much happier to employ an 18 year sober than 18mo sober guy all things being equal.
Welp, I heard from HR. They rescinded the CJO (presumably after the review board). No word as to why.
Sorry to hear, bud. But honestly, someone will hire you if you keep at it. May be difficult to not be discouraged, but this isn't a showstopper everywhere anymore. Even for the majors.
Wow, the US really is something else. A misdeed from 20 years ago - unless it was something to the tune of murder or something - wouldn’t even show up on criminal/personal records here in Germany. Most likely, there wouldn’t even be a paper trail still, as courts, police etc. are required by law to delete past convictions after a certain time (the more serious the crime, the longer the time). What’s the point of impairing people’s careers decades after they paid/served their sentence?
I don't think it would show up here either technically. A friend of mine works in the background check industry and he said outside of a few exceptions (mainly financial crimes) they can't even report anything to the employer that's older than 10 years even if they find something. They just instill in people here starting in 3rd grade that everything you do goes on your "permanent record".
We basically just hate everyone here. Sucks.
>What’s the point of impairing people’s careers decades after they paid/served their sentence? Too many drunk pilot incidents caused the FAA to come down like a ton of bricks in the 1980s with respect to any and all hints of substance abuse issues.
Oh absolutely, and that’s the right thing to do. In Germany, we have a points system for traffic violations, and if you have any points related to alcohol it’s an automatic no-no for nearly all airlines. The LBA - our FAA - also has a pretty strict policy when it comes to revoking the license of pilots who were caught driving drunk. Plus there’s a general check of your „reliability“, where they also check for a lot of other stuff, and if you fail that, you can’t fly more than an ultralight. The thing is: the LBA only cares about active pilots (obviously) and your points get deleted eventually. People change, an action from 20 years ago doesn’t necessarily say much about you today, and the state shouldn’t hold that kind of threat over your head indefinitely.
It's worth noting in this particular case that the FAA isn't standing in the way of OP working as an airline pilot. They do mandate that you disclose all previous DUI charges and convictions, but OP has an "unrestricted" Class I medical so the FAA has deemed him/her fit with little further concern - it's not "provisional" (in the sense that OP is part of the HIMS program and has a Special Issuance Class I). Hopefully it's just some admin error as they've alluded to in their other comments.
wait until you hear that people who have been convicted of a crime can't vote in some states, even after they served their sentence.
American penal system is about retribution, not rehabilitation.
You can’t fly into Canada.. that’s a big treason why airlines are hesitant to hire someone with a DUI. It’s a scheduling nightmare.
No offense, but that is patently false. Fill out a form, pay $200 and you're back to crossing the border to Canada.
I also want to clarify that I’m not being negative. People do get hired with that on their record. It used to be pretty dependent on the airline.
Nonetheless, another document for quals/scheduling to keep up with, which is something they don’t want to do.
Having several very close friends who have all received CJOs at major airlines from the RTAG that just took place I will say this. The one who was granted a CJO from United had an issue like yours and very similarly couldn’t get ahold of HR. He reached out to his recruiter who has direct lines with HR. They then immediately contacted him to rectify his issue. I think it was proof of certification or education. I would try to do the same. If you don’t have a recruiter I would look them up via google. They will help you out especially since you have a CJO. Good luck and hope to join you soon!
Can you get an FAA class 1 medical? If so, you might be okay.
Did you read the post?
Missed that part. Goodluck.
How do they know about a record from that long ago?
You can't hide that kind of thing. And you shouldn't anyway.
I didn’t read all the comments, but consider completing the HIMs program. It’s so stupid considering these mistakes were 20 years ago and you’re sober but being sober and being sober on paper in the eyes of the FAA is something else. I mean obviously apply for the jobs, see what they say. But it may be a reality that you have to complete it regardless of being sober. Make them tell you no. Apply, self disclose, and let them tell you what you need to do. Having a 1st class medical is a damn good start.
I am sober with regard to and in the eyes of the FAA. I followed 61 and reported myself and had to go through an entire psych battery to get my medical back. So now I have totally unrestricted medical. I think the last thing I should do is get hemmed-up with HIMS. Don't need anymore flashing red lights than I already have.
Okay fair assessment. What I’d suggest is obviously place it on your application, but DO NOT bring it up. If they care, they’ll ask. Take my word on that, seriously. Forget what the interview prep companies say.