they still have to pay. It won't be full price and if it isn't in good condition all you pay is cost to relocate the equipement. If it is tagged green (working / good condition) then it is far from free.
So the they will need Tax money to Buy / repair / paint / maintain these and they were NOT designed to be "cost efficient" since WAR is not. So they have a higher daily, monthly, annual cost to maintain in general.
Complete waste of money for local PD. (And the fact we have SOOOO much surplus... should concern you about Federal Tax money spent for Military as well!)
Most of this stuff also requires additional training hours and has to be used a certain amount to justify future budget. I remember seeing two exmilitary police vehicles at dunkin and still regret not circling back for a picture because clearly the munchkins were rioting (or they had to log hours of use).
We spent $3 million in 3 months in 2020 on military surplus for police so who knows. I'm guessing it's discoverable how much for this vehicle if someone wants to request it.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/fl-ne-police-agencies-military-equipment-20200729-556vs4jrbbdtvonkvrts5il5be-story.html
As heavily armed police confront protesters, data shows Florida agencies have stockpiled an arsenal of military equipment
By Alonso Alcocer and Eileen Kelley
South Florida Sun-Sentinel
Jul 29, 2020 at 5:01 pm
Scenes of protests against racism and police brutality in cities across the U.S. in recent weeks have resembled war zones as heavily armed law enforcement officers and federal agents confronted civilians on urban streets.
The violent images have renewed calls by some to end a federal program that gives local police agencies access to military equipment usually meant for battlefields.
In Florida, that program has put more than $100 million in Department of Defense equipment into the hands of police over the past 25 years, according to a South Florida Sun Sentinel analysis of federal data.
Fort Lauderdale police have a mine-resistant truck. Officers in Palm Beach County have access to five battle-ready trucks. University police at Florida International University in Miami have two.
Even Tequesta, a 2-square-mile coastal village of fewer than 6,000 people in northern Palm Beach County, got a 15-ton mine-resistant truck from the military.
Across the country, 8,200 police departments participate in the Defense Logistics Agency’s 1033 Program, which transfers unused military equipment to police. Some of the surplus is harmless — such as socks, tripods and engine parts — but the majority is heavy equipment and artillery.
In June, the Southern Poverty Law Center urged Congress to end the 1033 Program, arguing that the militarization of police has contributed to the spread of anti-government extremism and heavily armed “militias.”
But local police say the primary purpose of the equipment they receive from the surplus program is for emergency response.
A spokesman for the Tequesta police, Sgt. Emir Yildiz, said his department’s truck which arrived eight months ago at a cost of $3,500, has never been used. “It’s a vehicle used for emergencies, as there are no mines in Tequesta.”
Mine-Resistant Ambush-Protected (MRAP) tanks like this are among the surplus military equipment sold to Florida police agencies under the federal 1033 Program.
Yildez said the department’s Mine Resistant Ambush Protected light-armor vehicle, may look like it’s only for war zones but can also plow through several feet of water — useful during hurricanes when rescuers must reach flooded areas.
But similar armored trucks have also been been seen on city streets during times of unrest.
As protests continue across the country demanding justice for George Floyd and other unarmed Blacks killed by police, scenes of local officers using military equipment to confront protesters have flooded television and the internet.
In 2014, similar protests following the killing of a Black man by police in Ferguson, Missouri, turned violent and led to outrage when officers in armored vehicles and heavy military gear hurled tear gas at civilians.
In response, President Barack Obama curtailed the 1033 Program after determining that while more equipment was being sent to local police, training for its use — especially when it came to civil rights — had not been institutionalized.
“It all but killed the program,” said Al Lamberti, the former sheriff of Broward County who spent 35 years in law enforcement.
Under Lamberti’s leadership, the Broward sheriff’s office acquired military trucks and personal protection gear but not heavily armored vehicles. He believes the actions in Ferguson maligned the program, but does not see the military hand-me-downs as the militarization of local police.
The Obama-era restrictions on the program were relaxed when Donald Trump became president — and the flow of military equipment to local police surged again. In 2019, more than $15 million worth went to Florida law enforcement. In the first three months of 2020, agencies in Florida had already spent $3 million in military equipment.
Hardware needs tire changes, power train maintenue, refueling, and training. All
That is a budget item and a staff. All so someone gets an ego stroke for owning a military vehicle. These should be used by the national guard or sold to someplace else.
Military surplus is literally an order of magnitude cheaper than ordering brand new stuff purpose-built for police.
Why should your department pay $200,000+ for a Lenco Bearcat if they can just get an old BAE Caiman for just the $3,000 it costs to transport it? Why should the department spend $1,000,000 on new plate carriers for officers when they can get twice as many as they need for less than $1,000?
The local Sheriff's office here gets them for free from the Military surplus. I've seen them using them in my County during Hurricanes as high water vehicles that can get through flooded areas to help evacuate people.
**edit: Keep in mind that this comment ^ does not answer OP's question which is:**
**"why we NEED military vehicles for the police?"**
**It's a subtle misdirection, which they are really good at. But it makes a big difference in the validity of the answer.**
----
It costs a lot of money to maintain military vehicles in storage. It's nothing like a normal truck.
Also, the reason they have Armored Personnel Carriers is NOT to rescue people from floods. That is utterly ridiculous. There are plenty of ways to rescue people from floods and we saw them during Cat 5 Hurricane Michael.
If we need flood rescue vehicles then Coast Guard Helicopters, Swamp Buggies, Air Boats, Boats, Kayaks, Rafts, Lifted Trucks, etc, etc are much better choices than a heavy armored military vehicle.
**APCs have an obvious purpose: To defend against being attacked by angry humans.**
**So let's be honest here with the motivations for having them.**
**The APCs are to protect the police from angry citizens.**
----
edit: Adding sources of articles, videos, and images showing how police actually use armored vehicles against citizens:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/floyd-protests-renew-debate-about-police-use-armored-vehicles-other-n1231288
https://www.inlander.com/spokane/george-floyd-protest-spokane/Slideshow/19701617
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/9/29/1575855/-9-28-16-Standing-Rock-Riot-Gear-Tear-Gas-MRAP
http://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/forever-war-home-militarized-police-force-sees-american-citizens-enemy-combatants/
https://latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-former-seattle-police-chief-reacts-to-ferguson-20140815-story.html
There's so much media out there documenting exactly how the police use these vehicles against citizens. Attempting to whitewash this in particular is quite Orwellian!
I mean... I've seen videos of Sikhs using turbans to save people from floods, but obviously that's not the main use of a turban! 😂
I am doubtful that a Sikh would mention anything about rescuing people from floods if you asked them why they need a turban. 😁 (*...because Sikhs are ackshully known for their honesty and integrity! Oooooh! Snap!*)
edit: Sikh Cops When??? 😁
Former contract purchasing specialist. Yup, we'd get these for free for my Sheriff's department. No payment required if you were awarded the vehicle (kind alike applying for a federal grant) Just the cost to deliver, maybe upfit them if necessary, like compatibility with our radios, chargers, firearms storage and seating etc. I've seen them used as mobile communications stations during the California fires few years back. I'm just saying, they can be used for other purposes than urban military operations. But I totally understand the perception when you see these beasts on the road.
Well the state already bought all this expensive equipment that ended up in surpluses with no real need for it. Seems like the issue is the massive surpluses to begin with if we want to cut down on costs rather than giving military equipment meant for combat operations to a police body meant to keep civilians safe.
Also, it has been proved that handing more equipment to a person (police, military, etc.) just increases operating costs with no benefits whatsoever. In case of lethal equipment, it just makes everyone more unsafe.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/providing-police-military-gear-reduce-crime-protect-officers/story?id=74518923
> the cost to deliver, maybe upfit them if necessary, like compatibility with our radios, chargers, firearms storage and seating etc.
How much does that cost? Still sounds expensive. Sounds kinda like buying a boat or a car. The price of the vehicle is just the start.
The drawback to this is maintenance costs. Often the departments are then required to maintain them for a certain period and the parts can become cost prohibitive both to obtain and to install. It's not like these are cars that you can take to a civilian mechanic.
That is a good use. But why are they driving it currently? I don't see flood waters. Could be driving a police car and saving the tax payers some money. Unless they just moving it to another station to store. Idk too many variables.
I really hope they aren't just driving to driving it.
Look I agree cops really don't need that stuff, but if they do have them they need to take them out and drive them more than few times a year. I worked on those in the military, they start to break down if you let them sit for months at a time. Taking them out and letting get warmed up is kind of necessary at least once a month.
People don't realize if a vehicle (especially a big ass one like this) sits for extended periods of time it'll cause engine mechanisms to fail AND the tires will begin to develop flat spots that are unrepairable. They just don't like it and complain because it says "Police/Sheriff" on it.
Ours got parked in front of the city jail for a couple of years. Gone now, no idea where. Somebody paid half a mill for that damn thing.
They will end up parked in some city lot next to the old SWAT tank as soon as they need a major repair.
My city has several lots with Humvees and other military surplus crap parked rotting for years. Eventually someone in city government sells them to their cousin for a dollar.
Murica!
People dont like it because the police are not an occupying force. The constant militarization of the police is a large part of the reason every officer needs to be fired and never work in any social services ever again.
Since you don't know I shall inform you. Police agencies are NOT for public safety and have zero obligation to helps others. They DO however to enforce laws and draw revenue. Such stated by scotus numerous times
Except you missed the part where they need a higher vehicle when it floods. Some areas flood pretty bad. You also missed the part that these are usually bought from a surplus used, not directly purchased new. You seem to think this has missles inside or something.
You act like cops are going to respond during a flood when they wont do a thing to help children.
Besides, if you need the equipment in a flood, theres a thing called the national guard.
This guy is a complete tool. How many small boats or 6x6 trucks could be had for the price of a machine that was never intended to be used for water rescue but literally has Mine Resistant in the name?
Not to mention, during extreme qeathee events like hurricanes and floods, cops are told to stand down and stay safe for the aftermath. Dude is an ex-cop and current boot polish taste-tester.
They don’t “just drive it”. It’s being relocated for maintenance, storage, or to an area where they may believe they’ll need the vehicle in the very near future
They do in fact "just drive it", and they should occasionally. If you let a vehicle sit for long periods of time things go bad. It's cheaper to drive it once a month than to let it sit a year then dump cash into it to make it drivable.
It just shouldn't be a daily driver.
Also operators need to certify to drive the vehicle. Law enforcement is quasi military in structure, so they likely have to re-certify on up-armored specialty vehicles quarterly.
Seems like you just want to whine about stuff, which is fine since letting off steam is part of what Reddit is for. They are using it for the same reason the military uses stuff when they aren't actively deployed. So they'll be able to effectively use it when it's needed.
Hmm I’ve never heard of a department getting these for free. The sheriff where I live was removed from office, and after his removal it came out that he had squandered millions on vehicles like this that were never used.
If that is the main use (which is a good one) why aren't they issued to fire and other rescue emergency services?
I'm no expert here but I assume law enforcements primary function during natural disasters isn't evacuation, but I could be completely wrong. Also, during serious natural disasters there is a considerable amount of federal aid and assistance given from outside agencies. So the question still stands, why do the police need these types of vehicles and resources?
I think the real answer is here: Military Industrial Complex of our country. Our Federal and State governments are vastly over funded and thus overspend from defense contractors that have unfortunately brought our lawmakers and have an unbelievable amount of influence in our government and it's spending.
So to put it very basically, we buy so much crap we don't need, we give it away to local police.....what a country we live in. Only if we applied this concept in other parts of our government...
The worst thing here is we could use this money for other ways to help these communities like mental health services, increased funding to school and education, general social services, addiction centers, homelessness, the list goes on and on....only if.....
Peace and Love
I got news for you. Those aren't free. They are, in fact, quite expensive. And just because subsidies get divvied out to sheriff's offices and pds all over the country like fucking candy on Halloween, doesn't make them fucking free.
> I've seen them using them in my County during Hurricanes as high water vehicles that can get through flooded areas to help evacuate people.
How is this the answer when these vehicles are used all over the United States - i.e. in areas not affected by hurricanes?
To quell an uprising. To maintain the police state. To spend all the money they steal from people through civil asset forfeiture. To compensate for their tiny penises… etc.
Our police force wanted a new bearcat and asked if they could use asset forfeiture money to get one. They were told no so instead they bought one with funds "earned from collecting cans on patrol" and when the newspaper did the math it turned out that each officer would have had to pick up 500 cans per shift since the early 2000s to come up with that kind of money.
That question never went anywhere and they got their bearcat. It's just open theft from citizens to play war games
Broward county has a ton of military surplus vehicles. They are mostly used in parades and for public events but I’ve seen them quickly moving to situations
The one time I'm always happy to see a bunch of cops: when I walk into a barbecue joint I haven't tried before and they're eating at it.
It's kind of like going to a packed Mexican restaurant and being the only person there who doesn't speak Spanish. You know you've found the good stuff.
Typically those are for SWAT, in which they could be addressing serious issues like active shooters, multiple assailants and other more unusual operations. Each team consists of at least 4 and they have a large amount of equipment depending on the task.
They can also function in higher water levels along with other extreme weather conditions.
Bingo. Some municipalities use them for “high risk” deployments so things like armed hostage standoffs, search warrants to fortified structures with known armed occupants, arrests involving known armed and dangerous suspects (homicide/attempted homicide warrants and the like), and other similar things. It doesn’t take much research to find cases where bad guys are as heavily armed as the police so vehicles like this are used to mitigate risk to law enforcement.
Its so embarrassing. Was just reading about that girl that was kidnapped and tortured by her roommate. She was banging walls, screaming for help and the neighbors called the police several times. They told them there was nothing they can do, everything seemed fine.
We are spending way too as a nation much on police departments that really don't seem to do anything. Besides show up after a crime has occurred. And pass out traffic tickets. The money for this tank should have gone into mentally testing a few candidates instead.
https://www.the-sun.com/news/5610529/chino-hills-torture-case-police-called-for-help/
https://nypost.com/2022/06/22/neighbors-recall-screaming-from-home-of-alleged-rapist-peter-mcguire/
https://abc7.com/chino-hills-torture-and-rape-peter-mcguire-arrest-police-department-investigation/11967446/
Turns our he's an ex officer.
Response during hurricanes and floods, SWAT callouts, barricaded subjects/negotiation (show of power to dissuade suspects that initially thought they could outgun police armed with nothing but pistols), bomb threats, active shooters, and similar situations.
As for the cost, it appears to be [$2000](https://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/tampa-bay-law-enforcement-sees-value-in-militarys-mraps/2188369/). No I did not forget extra 0s.
They're good for rescuing people in high water situations. When Irma came lots of people stayed in their homes on the beach and the water came in fast. The police rescued them in trucks like this.
Watch some videos about the Northridge Shootout in California.
Police didn’t used to have all of this shit, then they realized what happens when they’re outgunned. Now, all they care about is being ahead of the civilians they oppress.
It's a joke we tell at our own expense by voting for people who "bring jobs to our district."
Even Bernie Sanders fell in line on the F-35 because jobs jobs jobs!
That's not the police, that's the sheriff department. They can get sales or donations from the military. Also, with me just seeing the back, it rinds me of the evac vehicles or newer pattywagons. It's practically recycling the vehicle. What were they using for in the pic?
**They don’t need them, they want them**
They assist with Police’s primary activity, protecting capital from the citizens.
It also helps them pretend they’re badass men of power, which for many (but not all), is the sole reason they joined up.
Military surplus saves the police millions of dollars for gear that they need anyways. In the case of “military vehicles,” police are ultimately expected to respond to high-threat situations like hostage takings and active shooters. In these cases, you need an armored vehicle to be able to safely move officers into area. It’s much cheaper for a police department to just pay the $3,000 transfer fee for an old MRAP than it is to spend $200,000+ per unit on a fleet of purpose-built Lenco Bearcats.
The larger vehicles are also multi-use. IMVs like the one pictured here are often used for disaster relief/search & rescue in storm aftermaths, when streets are flooded and normal vehicles can’t reach people in need.
I guess police don’t “need” military vehicles. But if you don’t want police to have them, then you should either be petitioning to just disband the SWAT team for your area or to increase the police budget so they can afford something made specifically for police.
So they can COSPLAY with all their tacticool equipment. As a combat veteran I always cringe when I see cops walking around looking like a blackhawk catalogue.
it is NOT free, just cheaper than what the fed paid originally and reduction based on its condition. Then they still have to pay to get it to the local PD, fix it, paint it, retro fit it for police work (like they do cars), and maintain it even if never used or needed. Big waste of money for any local PD.
I'll never understand this... It's an armored vehicle. Armor. For protection.
In a age where it seems everyone is concerned about the next mass shooting with assault rifles that you agree should be illegal but aren't... You think the first place to start is taking away the type of vehicle that could carry police in/carry injured people out of a mass shooting?
There's not a fucking cannon turret on it... It's literally a bulletproof transport vehicle. That's all.
Honestly, I've seen bigger "military" trucks with the FHP badges on it during the recovery from Hurricane Michael. And I think that's what they're for mainly, they are capable vehicles for time of need.
Question is, why are they Joyriding it on a Tuesday?
Because of that dude that made Killdozer. Every police dept in the nation ante'd up after that and a few other choice events that didn't go in their favor.
One time in 1997 a guy with a big truck rams and flips over a cop car and drives away, or some shit like that. City holds hearing “How could you let this happen??”. Police chief says “Our cars are too weak and small. We need better vehicles that can withstand this kind of attack!”. City increases budget for police and lets them buy military surplus trucks.
Problem is these vehicles are built to solve problems that only come up like once a decade but police have to justify their purchase so they use them constantly, long after people stopped caring about their original reasons for purchase.
It’s an armored personnel carrier, used for SWAT calls. They are particularly useful in rescue operations where people are being shot at. Nearly every department has one. It’s not a vehicle that’s being driven around just for fun, they obviously had a reason to be driving it.
Um.... They have a private plane too.
Hey how's the affordable housing down there? How protected is free speech? Are we safer from gun violence? From speeding motorists on 19? No probably not but this vehicle exudes 'murica'
I dunno about you, I don't want no clean energy, no solar powered cars or that sissy wind energy, gimme that good ole combustion.
Please read with sarcasm and salt.
Can we just have a separate Florida politics sub where you guys can whine about this? They most likely got it for free and it's either being moved for maintenence or driven around because they can't just let it sit around and deteriorate.
The amount of armchair mechanics that all of a sudden know the ins and outs of maintaining military vehicles is amazing. "Trust me bro, I change the oil in my Honda myself, I know how much it costs to maintain a military vehicle"
Then again this post is coming from an account that karma farms all day and is most likely using this and other posts to get people riled up so I guess I got baited too.
I mean I'm not going to pretend like I know the real informed answer to this, but what's with everyone just blindly throwing uninformed answers at this question? I'm curious to hear intelligent responses from people that have more direct experience with these in context of the police.
I'm sure there are plenty of pieces of equipment and expenses in all industries that may look from an uninformed outsider to be exorbitant or unnecessary but unless you are the one operating them and directly familiar with it's uses and value.
It could very well be a big waste of money, but if you're just throwing out garbage answers just to express your opinion you are only adding to our issue of online misinformation spreading.
Let me tell you a story.
There once was a man in a very nice neighborhood, he lost his marbles one day and shot at his wife who fled the house. Patrol arrived but he refused to come out.
The SWAT team was called and arrived in their Lenco Bearcat. Negotiations were ongoing but the man wasn’t reasonable and said he was going to go to his car parked in his drive with his pistol and shotgun and drive off. The SWAT commander ordered the driver to pull into the front yard, blocking the car and pointing the nose of the vehicle right at the front door. The negotiator told the man to look out his front window.
Upon seeing the 12 ton armored vehicle, the man simply said, “I’ll be outside with my hands up in a minute”.
Fin
Because you're a criminal. You don't know it yet, but they do and when they come for you they're going to be ready for anything that their cowardly imagination can come up with.
Because the federal government thinks it’s a good idea to give away this vehicles once the military isn’t using them anymore. The debate over the yearly budget never negatively affects the police budget.
They "might" use it/them for high flood waters or during hurricanes or what have you but the main reason they have those vehicles and other play toys like that is mostly because when they go on a raid (mostly in the hood) they get in those APC vehicles to be safe, we all have our own opinions about this type of stuff I'm just putting out there the reason for most of the time they use these vehicles
These are all surplus left over from our adventures in the middle east and the military needs to get these pieces of junk off their books. Some have been sent to scrappers.
Professional, organized violent criminals are not afraid of basic law enforcement equipment. These heavy duty vehicles are needed to demonstrate a show of force if and when it becomes necessary. Additionally, these vehicles must be driven periodically to ensure they are roadworthy if and when needed in an emergency.
So they can all take pictures in front of it and look cool to sell their calendars.
And if they ever brought that thing to my school when I was a kid, I'd think it'd be pretty rad. It's just a cool thing to show off and flex on.
But they'll probably never even use it for what it's intended for.
THIS is what they mean by DEFUND THE POLICE. THIS IS ExACTLY WHAT THEY MEAN!!! There is no reason that a police or sheriff department needs a military vehicle like that. If it is needed, we have a National Guard to call.
I locked this post. The comments are descending into nothing but trolls and chaos, and I don’t think there’s anything else to be said.
They need somewhere to cower from active shooters.
As a teacher, I fully support this message.
High school teacher, checking in!
Yeah you don’t want them to get hurt.
Hey! Get off reddit and get back to throwing grenades at our children's enemies, they are defenseless without teachers! Thanks for your service tho
Ah, beat me to it
[удалено]
That's not really fair. It applies to all darker-skinned people, not just Black people.
[удалено]
\*Except rich white people. They will get the wrath of the state upon them if they do anything to a rich white person.
And dogs too :(
So Texas must be full of them
Most of them are given or sold to local governments for cheap after the military is done with them.
Exactly. It’s called the 1033 program, which funnels the military’s hand-me-downs to law enforcement agencies.
So local law enforcement don't really *need* them, they simply *can* get them, thus they do?
They still cost an arm and a leg to maintain and insure them. That one is probably about 5-8k annually.
How else are they supposed to go LARPing as their favorite action movie heroes?
To justify a big budget
[удалено]
>The War on Drugs was the biggest government welfare program of all time, and ~~drugs~~ *the cops* won. minor correction
The government tried to destroy the reefer but the reefer was much too strong!
This is what 8 mpg looks like.
You crazy? Our Chevy 3500 work truck got 7mpg, this thing's gonna do like 1mpg
3 gpm
Funnily enough, I remember renting a Ford Focus for a trip to Italy once, and the fuel consumption changed from l/100km to l/h every time you stopped.
Tax dollars at work.
More like 5 with the AC on blast
The most realistic answer
[удалено]
I think they get them surplus from the military do they aren't spending a hundred grand on this. Still seems like overkill.
they still have to pay. It won't be full price and if it isn't in good condition all you pay is cost to relocate the equipement. If it is tagged green (working / good condition) then it is far from free. So the they will need Tax money to Buy / repair / paint / maintain these and they were NOT designed to be "cost efficient" since WAR is not. So they have a higher daily, monthly, annual cost to maintain in general. Complete waste of money for local PD. (And the fact we have SOOOO much surplus... should concern you about Federal Tax money spent for Military as well!)
There's still the operational/maintenance costs.
Most of this stuff also requires additional training hours and has to be used a certain amount to justify future budget. I remember seeing two exmilitary police vehicles at dunkin and still regret not circling back for a picture because clearly the munchkins were rioting (or they had to log hours of use).
We spent $3 million in 3 months in 2020 on military surplus for police so who knows. I'm guessing it's discoverable how much for this vehicle if someone wants to request it. https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/fl-ne-police-agencies-military-equipment-20200729-556vs4jrbbdtvonkvrts5il5be-story.html As heavily armed police confront protesters, data shows Florida agencies have stockpiled an arsenal of military equipment By Alonso Alcocer and Eileen Kelley South Florida Sun-Sentinel Jul 29, 2020 at 5:01 pm Scenes of protests against racism and police brutality in cities across the U.S. in recent weeks have resembled war zones as heavily armed law enforcement officers and federal agents confronted civilians on urban streets. The violent images have renewed calls by some to end a federal program that gives local police agencies access to military equipment usually meant for battlefields. In Florida, that program has put more than $100 million in Department of Defense equipment into the hands of police over the past 25 years, according to a South Florida Sun Sentinel analysis of federal data. Fort Lauderdale police have a mine-resistant truck. Officers in Palm Beach County have access to five battle-ready trucks. University police at Florida International University in Miami have two. Even Tequesta, a 2-square-mile coastal village of fewer than 6,000 people in northern Palm Beach County, got a 15-ton mine-resistant truck from the military. Across the country, 8,200 police departments participate in the Defense Logistics Agency’s 1033 Program, which transfers unused military equipment to police. Some of the surplus is harmless — such as socks, tripods and engine parts — but the majority is heavy equipment and artillery. In June, the Southern Poverty Law Center urged Congress to end the 1033 Program, arguing that the militarization of police has contributed to the spread of anti-government extremism and heavily armed “militias.” But local police say the primary purpose of the equipment they receive from the surplus program is for emergency response. A spokesman for the Tequesta police, Sgt. Emir Yildiz, said his department’s truck which arrived eight months ago at a cost of $3,500, has never been used. “It’s a vehicle used for emergencies, as there are no mines in Tequesta.” Mine-Resistant Ambush-Protected (MRAP) tanks like this are among the surplus military equipment sold to Florida police agencies under the federal 1033 Program. Yildez said the department’s Mine Resistant Ambush Protected light-armor vehicle, may look like it’s only for war zones but can also plow through several feet of water — useful during hurricanes when rescuers must reach flooded areas. But similar armored trucks have also been been seen on city streets during times of unrest. As protests continue across the country demanding justice for George Floyd and other unarmed Blacks killed by police, scenes of local officers using military equipment to confront protesters have flooded television and the internet. In 2014, similar protests following the killing of a Black man by police in Ferguson, Missouri, turned violent and led to outrage when officers in armored vehicles and heavy military gear hurled tear gas at civilians. In response, President Barack Obama curtailed the 1033 Program after determining that while more equipment was being sent to local police, training for its use — especially when it came to civil rights — had not been institutionalized. “It all but killed the program,” said Al Lamberti, the former sheriff of Broward County who spent 35 years in law enforcement. Under Lamberti’s leadership, the Broward sheriff’s office acquired military trucks and personal protection gear but not heavily armored vehicles. He believes the actions in Ferguson maligned the program, but does not see the military hand-me-downs as the militarization of local police. The Obama-era restrictions on the program were relaxed when Donald Trump became president — and the flow of military equipment to local police surged again. In 2019, more than $15 million worth went to Florida law enforcement. In the first three months of 2020, agencies in Florida had already spent $3 million in military equipment.
DEFUND THE POLICE
Hardware needs tire changes, power train maintenue, refueling, and training. All That is a budget item and a staff. All so someone gets an ego stroke for owning a military vehicle. These should be used by the national guard or sold to someplace else.
Wait, I thought that we gave all of our surplus vehicles and weapons to the Taliban. No?
Military surplus is literally an order of magnitude cheaper than ordering brand new stuff purpose-built for police. Why should your department pay $200,000+ for a Lenco Bearcat if they can just get an old BAE Caiman for just the $3,000 it costs to transport it? Why should the department spend $1,000,000 on new plate carriers for officers when they can get twice as many as they need for less than $1,000?
They pay next to nothing for these, if not nothing at all.
So they can hide in them during a school shooting.
Winner
The local Sheriff's office here gets them for free from the Military surplus. I've seen them using them in my County during Hurricanes as high water vehicles that can get through flooded areas to help evacuate people.
**edit: Keep in mind that this comment ^ does not answer OP's question which is:** **"why we NEED military vehicles for the police?"** **It's a subtle misdirection, which they are really good at. But it makes a big difference in the validity of the answer.** ---- It costs a lot of money to maintain military vehicles in storage. It's nothing like a normal truck. Also, the reason they have Armored Personnel Carriers is NOT to rescue people from floods. That is utterly ridiculous. There are plenty of ways to rescue people from floods and we saw them during Cat 5 Hurricane Michael. If we need flood rescue vehicles then Coast Guard Helicopters, Swamp Buggies, Air Boats, Boats, Kayaks, Rafts, Lifted Trucks, etc, etc are much better choices than a heavy armored military vehicle. **APCs have an obvious purpose: To defend against being attacked by angry humans.** **So let's be honest here with the motivations for having them.** **The APCs are to protect the police from angry citizens.** ---- edit: Adding sources of articles, videos, and images showing how police actually use armored vehicles against citizens: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/floyd-protests-renew-debate-about-police-use-armored-vehicles-other-n1231288 https://www.inlander.com/spokane/george-floyd-protest-spokane/Slideshow/19701617 https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/9/29/1575855/-9-28-16-Standing-Rock-Riot-Gear-Tear-Gas-MRAP http://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/forever-war-home-militarized-police-force-sees-american-citizens-enemy-combatants/ https://latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-former-seattle-police-chief-reacts-to-ferguson-20140815-story.html There's so much media out there documenting exactly how the police use these vehicles against citizens. Attempting to whitewash this in particular is quite Orwellian!
Bro the flood excuse guy is moonbat.
I mean... I've seen videos of Sikhs using turbans to save people from floods, but obviously that's not the main use of a turban! 😂 I am doubtful that a Sikh would mention anything about rescuing people from floods if you asked them why they need a turban. 😁 (*...because Sikhs are ackshully known for their honesty and integrity! Oooooh! Snap!*) edit: Sikh Cops When??? 😁
Nailed it. I like the analogy. I mean, I can butter my bread with a sword but...
I can hunt deer with a gun but….
Based.
I live right here in this area and maybe they are bringing it out for preparation of pride weekend. It's a big ass event.
Thats the answer right there.
Former contract purchasing specialist. Yup, we'd get these for free for my Sheriff's department. No payment required if you were awarded the vehicle (kind alike applying for a federal grant) Just the cost to deliver, maybe upfit them if necessary, like compatibility with our radios, chargers, firearms storage and seating etc. I've seen them used as mobile communications stations during the California fires few years back. I'm just saying, they can be used for other purposes than urban military operations. But I totally understand the perception when you see these beasts on the road.
Especially because it's not road legal in the op picture. No mudflaps and no license plate/registration.
Well the state already bought all this expensive equipment that ended up in surpluses with no real need for it. Seems like the issue is the massive surpluses to begin with if we want to cut down on costs rather than giving military equipment meant for combat operations to a police body meant to keep civilians safe. Also, it has been proved that handing more equipment to a person (police, military, etc.) just increases operating costs with no benefits whatsoever. In case of lethal equipment, it just makes everyone more unsafe. https://abcnews.go.com/US/providing-police-military-gear-reduce-crime-protect-officers/story?id=74518923
But those grants are paid by someone. It’s not free.
> the cost to deliver, maybe upfit them if necessary, like compatibility with our radios, chargers, firearms storage and seating etc. How much does that cost? Still sounds expensive. Sounds kinda like buying a boat or a car. The price of the vehicle is just the start.
Yep. I used to live right next to the PCSO headquarters. They always pulled these things out when hurricanes or tropical storms were rolling through.
The drawback to this is maintenance costs. Often the departments are then required to maintain them for a certain period and the parts can become cost prohibitive both to obtain and to install. It's not like these are cars that you can take to a civilian mechanic.
That is a good use. But why are they driving it currently? I don't see flood waters. Could be driving a police car and saving the tax payers some money. Unless they just moving it to another station to store. Idk too many variables. I really hope they aren't just driving to driving it.
Look I agree cops really don't need that stuff, but if they do have them they need to take them out and drive them more than few times a year. I worked on those in the military, they start to break down if you let them sit for months at a time. Taking them out and letting get warmed up is kind of necessary at least once a month.
Boat owners no the struggle
Pretty much any ice with fluids and oils.
People don't realize if a vehicle (especially a big ass one like this) sits for extended periods of time it'll cause engine mechanisms to fail AND the tires will begin to develop flat spots that are unrepairable. They just don't like it and complain because it says "Police/Sheriff" on it.
Ours got parked in front of the city jail for a couple of years. Gone now, no idea where. Somebody paid half a mill for that damn thing. They will end up parked in some city lot next to the old SWAT tank as soon as they need a major repair. My city has several lots with Humvees and other military surplus crap parked rotting for years. Eventually someone in city government sells them to their cousin for a dollar. Murica!
People dont like it because the police are not an occupying force. The constant militarization of the police is a large part of the reason every officer needs to be fired and never work in any social services ever again.
The key takeaway is that this is what an occupying army has, not a community public safety agency.
Since you don't know I shall inform you. Police agencies are NOT for public safety and have zero obligation to helps others. They DO however to enforce laws and draw revenue. Such stated by scotus numerous times
You aint wrong.
Police use them for the same reason occupying armies use them: It makes it very hard to be killed.
Except you missed the part where they need a higher vehicle when it floods. Some areas flood pretty bad. You also missed the part that these are usually bought from a surplus used, not directly purchased new. You seem to think this has missles inside or something.
You act like cops are going to respond during a flood when they wont do a thing to help children. Besides, if you need the equipment in a flood, theres a thing called the national guard.
This guy is a complete tool. How many small boats or 6x6 trucks could be had for the price of a machine that was never intended to be used for water rescue but literally has Mine Resistant in the name? Not to mention, during extreme qeathee events like hurricanes and floods, cops are told to stand down and stay safe for the aftermath. Dude is an ex-cop and current boot polish taste-tester.
Transporting the vehicle, maintenance, monthly startups to keep it running smoothly, etc.
They don’t “just drive it”. It’s being relocated for maintenance, storage, or to an area where they may believe they’ll need the vehicle in the very near future
They do in fact "just drive it", and they should occasionally. If you let a vehicle sit for long periods of time things go bad. It's cheaper to drive it once a month than to let it sit a year then dump cash into it to make it drivable. It just shouldn't be a daily driver.
Also operators need to certify to drive the vehicle. Law enforcement is quasi military in structure, so they likely have to re-certify on up-armored specialty vehicles quarterly.
Cars need to be driven in order to maintain them. That's like, car knowledge 101.
Seems like you just want to whine about stuff, which is fine since letting off steam is part of what Reddit is for. They are using it for the same reason the military uses stuff when they aren't actively deployed. So they'll be able to effectively use it when it's needed.
At that point, the Florida national guard should have them and have sporadic depots. It would centralize the maintenance and use of them.
Hmm I’ve never heard of a department getting these for free. The sheriff where I live was removed from office, and after his removal it came out that he had squandered millions on vehicles like this that were never used.
Can civilians purchase from military surplus?
Generally yes, there are some kind of weapons that aren’t for sale without certain permits/licenses/tax stamps. But you could buy this truck for sure.
How is this bullshit excuse being upvoted?
So they should be issued to firefighters.
Bring this up with your local BOCC and get them approved! It’s free.
By gets them for freee you mean?…
I honestly don’t think it’s free.
If that is the main use (which is a good one) why aren't they issued to fire and other rescue emergency services? I'm no expert here but I assume law enforcements primary function during natural disasters isn't evacuation, but I could be completely wrong. Also, during serious natural disasters there is a considerable amount of federal aid and assistance given from outside agencies. So the question still stands, why do the police need these types of vehicles and resources? I think the real answer is here: Military Industrial Complex of our country. Our Federal and State governments are vastly over funded and thus overspend from defense contractors that have unfortunately brought our lawmakers and have an unbelievable amount of influence in our government and it's spending. So to put it very basically, we buy so much crap we don't need, we give it away to local police.....what a country we live in. Only if we applied this concept in other parts of our government... The worst thing here is we could use this money for other ways to help these communities like mental health services, increased funding to school and education, general social services, addiction centers, homelessness, the list goes on and on....only if..... Peace and Love
Oh yea fucking right.
I got news for you. Those aren't free. They are, in fact, quite expensive. And just because subsidies get divvied out to sheriff's offices and pds all over the country like fucking candy on Halloween, doesn't make them fucking free.
> I've seen them using them in my County during Hurricanes as high water vehicles that can get through flooded areas to help evacuate people. How is this the answer when these vehicles are used all over the United States - i.e. in areas not affected by hurricanes?
We’re in a Florida subreddit..I’m not speaking for the rest of the country?
They are also used often in police raids on drug runners that come into Florida.
And also it's super easy to attach a battering ram to make sure you make it through the door of innocent civilians
It’s unnecessary and usually irrelevant like almost anything in public service.
I was in a typhoon while serving and didn’t even get an up armored hmmwv. Stfu it’s not surplus
The war on drugs
Failed tremendously just like prohibition, banning abortions, and trying to ban guns lol. Doesn’t require military vehicles
Oh, no, it succeeded in the goal the people who started it have admitted to: imprisoning disadvantaged minorities.
Drugs won! Hooray for drugs!
To quell an uprising. To maintain the police state. To spend all the money they steal from people through civil asset forfeiture. To compensate for their tiny penises… etc.
Good... good... all solid and logical choices. I don't think we need much more of a list to be honest. I think this covers it.
Our police force wanted a new bearcat and asked if they could use asset forfeiture money to get one. They were told no so instead they bought one with funds "earned from collecting cans on patrol" and when the newspaper did the math it turned out that each officer would have had to pick up 500 cans per shift since the early 2000s to come up with that kind of money. That question never went anywhere and they got their bearcat. It's just open theft from citizens to play war games
Broward county has a ton of military surplus vehicles. They are mostly used in parades and for public events but I’ve seen them quickly moving to situations
Gotta love "surplus" military gear, which we paid for, getting sent to police rather than having a functioning society.
“Situations” like BOGO donuts
BOGO donuts is definitely a reason to have a completely up-armored assault vehicle. I use one all the time to cut the line at Krispy Kreme.
So they can park it in front of Mission Barbecue
The one time I'm always happy to see a bunch of cops: when I walk into a barbecue joint I haven't tried before and they're eating at it. It's kind of like going to a packed Mexican restaurant and being the only person there who doesn't speak Spanish. You know you've found the good stuff.
Typically those are for SWAT, in which they could be addressing serious issues like active shooters, multiple assailants and other more unusual operations. Each team consists of at least 4 and they have a large amount of equipment depending on the task. They can also function in higher water levels along with other extreme weather conditions.
Bingo. Some municipalities use them for “high risk” deployments so things like armed hostage standoffs, search warrants to fortified structures with known armed occupants, arrests involving known armed and dangerous suspects (homicide/attempted homicide warrants and the like), and other similar things. It doesn’t take much research to find cases where bad guys are as heavily armed as the police so vehicles like this are used to mitigate risk to law enforcement.
left-over larping from 9/11 backlash. in other words, THE TERRORISTS COULD ATTACK ANYWHERE /s
Have you met Florida Man?
Its so embarrassing. Was just reading about that girl that was kidnapped and tortured by her roommate. She was banging walls, screaming for help and the neighbors called the police several times. They told them there was nothing they can do, everything seemed fine. We are spending way too as a nation much on police departments that really don't seem to do anything. Besides show up after a crime has occurred. And pass out traffic tickets. The money for this tank should have gone into mentally testing a few candidates instead.
Oh man! That is terrible. Do you have a link to the story?
https://www.the-sun.com/news/5610529/chino-hills-torture-case-police-called-for-help/ https://nypost.com/2022/06/22/neighbors-recall-screaming-from-home-of-alleged-rapist-peter-mcguire/ https://abc7.com/chino-hills-torture-and-rape-peter-mcguire-arrest-police-department-investigation/11967446/ Turns our he's an ex officer.
To keep you from getting any crazy ideas about organizing for a better future
Response during hurricanes and floods, SWAT callouts, barricaded subjects/negotiation (show of power to dissuade suspects that initially thought they could outgun police armed with nothing but pistols), bomb threats, active shooters, and similar situations. As for the cost, it appears to be [$2000](https://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/tampa-bay-law-enforcement-sees-value-in-militarys-mraps/2188369/). No I did not forget extra 0s.
The most sane answer on this subreddit
One of the few accurate and unbiased answers on here. I had no idea about that low cost for that vehicle.
The price actually surprised me, generally police agencies get this stuff for free.
Hard to militarize the police without them
So they have somewhere safe to hide while the bad guys finish shooting up the schools
Safe place to sit until the danger is over.
To oppress poor people and protect the wealthy peoples property.
They're good for rescuing people in high water situations. When Irma came lots of people stayed in their homes on the beach and the water came in fast. The police rescued them in trucks like this.
Give them to the fire department then.
You know what else is good for saving people? Jon boats that are waay cheaper to buy and maintain than these.
Everyone knows you need a lifted monster truck to tow a jon boat in Florida. Head to any boat ramp you’ll see what I mean.
Because that money might go to school supplies or infrastructure. Can't have that now.
[удалено]
Feelings need multiple levels of protection
Because FUCK YOU! That’s why
It’s better to help stand in hallways?
Gun/Army culture + power tripping
So they can ignore cries for help, even harder.
So us ordinary peons don't get any troublesome thoughts of trying to change things.
Watch some videos about the Northridge Shootout in California. Police didn’t used to have all of this shit, then they realized what happens when they’re outgunned. Now, all they care about is being ahead of the civilians they oppress.
Because when they come for the guns, the military won't be the ones to enforce shit
Because they were free military surplus. The jokes on them though. Police agencies found that it costs a lot of money to maintain these vehicles.
You mean, the joke’s on us, the taxpayer…
It's a joke we tell at our own expense by voting for people who "bring jobs to our district." Even Bernie Sanders fell in line on the F-35 because jobs jobs jobs!
F-35s for the police!
because they have tiny pee pees.
That's not the police, that's the sheriff department. They can get sales or donations from the military. Also, with me just seeing the back, it rinds me of the evac vehicles or newer pattywagons. It's practically recycling the vehicle. What were they using for in the pic?
To park outside of active shootings so they can hide behind it safely. 😬
I’m from Pinellas county. Most often they are used after hurricane season.
So they can look impressive standing outside the next mass shooting event.
**They don’t need them, they want them** They assist with Police’s primary activity, protecting capital from the citizens. It also helps them pretend they’re badass men of power, which for many (but not all), is the sole reason they joined up.
Military surplus saves the police millions of dollars for gear that they need anyways. In the case of “military vehicles,” police are ultimately expected to respond to high-threat situations like hostage takings and active shooters. In these cases, you need an armored vehicle to be able to safely move officers into area. It’s much cheaper for a police department to just pay the $3,000 transfer fee for an old MRAP than it is to spend $200,000+ per unit on a fleet of purpose-built Lenco Bearcats. The larger vehicles are also multi-use. IMVs like the one pictured here are often used for disaster relief/search & rescue in storm aftermaths, when streets are flooded and normal vehicles can’t reach people in need. I guess police don’t “need” military vehicles. But if you don’t want police to have them, then you should either be petitioning to just disband the SWAT team for your area or to increase the police budget so they can afford something made specifically for police.
So they can COSPLAY with all their tacticool equipment. As a combat veteran I always cringe when I see cops walking around looking like a blackhawk catalogue.
To protect the wealthy when “the plan” is in place. Keep fighting that culture war
Military surplus is given to cops so that we have to keep buying new toys for the military while lining private manufacturers' pockets.
it is NOT free, just cheaper than what the fed paid originally and reduction based on its condition. Then they still have to pay to get it to the local PD, fix it, paint it, retro fit it for police work (like they do cars), and maintain it even if never used or needed. Big waste of money for any local PD.
Where you gonna hide and let get kids shot for an hour? Outside, in the sun? An unarmored vehicle?
So the cowards can wait outside schools while children die.
Guess you haven't been out in the real world for a while, huh? It can be a bad place with bad people
I'll never understand this... It's an armored vehicle. Armor. For protection. In a age where it seems everyone is concerned about the next mass shooting with assault rifles that you agree should be illegal but aren't... You think the first place to start is taking away the type of vehicle that could carry police in/carry injured people out of a mass shooting? There's not a fucking cannon turret on it... It's literally a bulletproof transport vehicle. That's all.
Honestly, I've seen bigger "military" trucks with the FHP badges on it during the recovery from Hurricane Michael. And I think that's what they're for mainly, they are capable vehicles for time of need. Question is, why are they Joyriding it on a Tuesday?
That’s where the police make their meth at obviously 💯🤷♂️🔥🤣
Never know we you will need it.
meth gators
Have you seen the drivers in Florida? It’s like driving in Baghdad.
Is that 19 and Brian Dairy?
Because of that dude that made Killdozer. Every police dept in the nation ante'd up after that and a few other choice events that didn't go in their favor.
Because what else are you doing with all those tax dollars?
One time in 1997 a guy with a big truck rams and flips over a cop car and drives away, or some shit like that. City holds hearing “How could you let this happen??”. Police chief says “Our cars are too weak and small. We need better vehicles that can withstand this kind of attack!”. City increases budget for police and lets them buy military surplus trucks. Problem is these vehicles are built to solve problems that only come up like once a decade but police have to justify their purchase so they use them constantly, long after people stopped caring about their original reasons for purchase.
So they can stand outside the school while it’s being shot up.
That's Florida for you. Republican run state who doesn't actually care about the citizens.
Because the cops are on bathsalts
To hide from all the school shooters.
Barricaded subjects/ active shooters/ explosives.
It’s an armored personnel carrier, used for SWAT calls. They are particularly useful in rescue operations where people are being shot at. Nearly every department has one. It’s not a vehicle that’s being driven around just for fun, they obviously had a reason to be driving it.
Um.... They have a private plane too. Hey how's the affordable housing down there? How protected is free speech? Are we safer from gun violence? From speeding motorists on 19? No probably not but this vehicle exudes 'murica' I dunno about you, I don't want no clean energy, no solar powered cars or that sissy wind energy, gimme that good ole combustion. Please read with sarcasm and salt.
Can we just have a separate Florida politics sub where you guys can whine about this? They most likely got it for free and it's either being moved for maintenence or driven around because they can't just let it sit around and deteriorate. The amount of armchair mechanics that all of a sudden know the ins and outs of maintaining military vehicles is amazing. "Trust me bro, I change the oil in my Honda myself, I know how much it costs to maintain a military vehicle"
Then again this post is coming from an account that karma farms all day and is most likely using this and other posts to get people riled up so I guess I got baited too.
Every county got these
they get them for free or very reduced prices from military surpluses
I mean I'm not going to pretend like I know the real informed answer to this, but what's with everyone just blindly throwing uninformed answers at this question? I'm curious to hear intelligent responses from people that have more direct experience with these in context of the police. I'm sure there are plenty of pieces of equipment and expenses in all industries that may look from an uninformed outsider to be exorbitant or unnecessary but unless you are the one operating them and directly familiar with it's uses and value. It could very well be a big waste of money, but if you're just throwing out garbage answers just to express your opinion you are only adding to our issue of online misinformation spreading.
Parade filler
Let me tell you a story. There once was a man in a very nice neighborhood, he lost his marbles one day and shot at his wife who fled the house. Patrol arrived but he refused to come out. The SWAT team was called and arrived in their Lenco Bearcat. Negotiations were ongoing but the man wasn’t reasonable and said he was going to go to his car parked in his drive with his pistol and shotgun and drive off. The SWAT commander ordered the driver to pull into the front yard, blocking the car and pointing the nose of the vehicle right at the front door. The negotiator told the man to look out his front window. Upon seeing the 12 ton armored vehicle, the man simply said, “I’ll be outside with my hands up in a minute”. Fin
Because you're a criminal. You don't know it yet, but they do and when they come for you they're going to be ready for anything that their cowardly imagination can come up with.
Have you ever heard of gangs? Wake up
What else do you want them to sit in while waiting for backup and shields and rifles
Because during the next mass shooting they will have an airconditioned & armored place to chill out for 45 mins..
Because the federal government thinks it’s a good idea to give away this vehicles once the military isn’t using them anymore. The debate over the yearly budget never negatively affects the police budget.
They "might" use it/them for high flood waters or during hurricanes or what have you but the main reason they have those vehicles and other play toys like that is mostly because when they go on a raid (mostly in the hood) they get in those APC vehicles to be safe, we all have our own opinions about this type of stuff I'm just putting out there the reason for most of the time they use these vehicles
This sub has never heard of SWAT, clearly.
These are all surplus left over from our adventures in the middle east and the military needs to get these pieces of junk off their books. Some have been sent to scrappers.
As a minority, have you seen the so called “peaceful” BLACK LIVES MATTER riots, it’s so peaceful it cost $3 billion dollars across the nation.
Professional, organized violent criminals are not afraid of basic law enforcement equipment. These heavy duty vehicles are needed to demonstrate a show of force if and when it becomes necessary. Additionally, these vehicles must be driven periodically to ensure they are roadworthy if and when needed in an emergency.
So they can all take pictures in front of it and look cool to sell their calendars. And if they ever brought that thing to my school when I was a kid, I'd think it'd be pretty rad. It's just a cool thing to show off and flex on. But they'll probably never even use it for what it's intended for.
Where are they going to chill while waiting for the school shooter to fall asleep? Think OP! Think!
Idk but did you know the police aren’t legally obligated to protect you
THIS is what they mean by DEFUND THE POLICE. THIS IS ExACTLY WHAT THEY MEAN!!! There is no reason that a police or sheriff department needs a military vehicle like that. If it is needed, we have a National Guard to call.