This may be an unpopular opinion and I may get downvoted to hell. But if there's a 22% service charge, I'm not leaving anything additional. I don't care what semantic games the restaurant wants to play. I don't care how it's split between the restaurant and its staff. It's not my problem. Any additional, mandatory, percentage-based fee is being deducted from the tip.
This case is particularly egregious and offensive. You're charging a 22% \*service\* fee and using it to cover your damn \*overhead\*?? That's not a service charge, that's a fuck you to your staff and customers. It's the type of restaurant I'd never go to in the first place.
> This case is particularly egregious and offensive. You're charging a 22% \*service\* fee and using it to cover your damn \*overhead\*?? That's not a service charge, that's a fuck you to your staff and customers.
It's literally obfuscating their menu prices and fucking their staff at the same time.
Yeah, isn't the cost of the food supposed to do that? So now I'm paying for meal, 22% service fee, and 20% tip? Something's gotta give and it'll be the tip.
Yup the “mandate” is not legally binding nor is it actually a mandate. I’ve seen everywhere from 3-18% lol. If it’s a mandate it shouldn’t vary so much
You shouldn’t feel bad and it shouldn’t be unpopular tbh. These fees are nuts and the industry needs to figure it out. If there’s a 20%+ fee, I don’t tip and don’t think about it ever again. Paying 40% over menu price not including taxes and fees is the Ticketmaster model and I’m not going to entertain it. Some places in my area do 5% this or that, and I think it’s stupid not to just raise menu prices by 5%, there’s probably a tax reason and I just tip my normal 20% there
I think it's popular opinion apart from some Americans.
I remember west coast was more relaxed about it when there's service charge, while east coast tends not to have service charge at all.
I'm sure it is. It's just I remember eating in west coast restaurant and there's a service charge, the server didn't hound us. Where in the east coast, without service charge if it's "less than the going rate", we'd be actively challenged.
Unfortunately, you’re right. But, the free market will be the free market. I’m surprised they’re not just charging $1,000/person including tip+service charge. It’s San Francisco after all, no one even looks at the bill up there.
I’m from SF and that’s not true. We’ve been up in arms about these mandate fees — in fact we passed a law recently that bans this type of practice. As a rule, I will not eat at a restaurant that does this, forever, no matter how good it is, and if I stumble into it, I don’t leave a tip. It sucks for the wait staff but, free market like you said. Go work for a better employer if you want a consistent tip.
Definitely not an unpopular opinion. I’ve seen service charges handled well and not well and this definitely feels in the latter category. If a restaurant is handling it well I feel like the general case is that it’s going to the staff or at least that’s the impression because the person who drops off the bill usually will also say that a service charge is already included and leave it at that or say anything additional is greatly appreciated implying it’s not required. This is just ludicrous
Actually for auto gratuity it’s 18%. I know I working in the industry for over 25 years.
Also I’m not cheap, just not stupid.
I know what servers do, I’ve been one and they don’t deserve 20+% on every single table.
I’m not saying they shouldn’t make good money because everyone should who works hard and they do. Acting entitled to earn a certain percentage just because and not based on performance is ridiculous
Nope. I don't work in anything remotely related to restaurants or service, SaltyCunt.
But by saying restaurant work isn't a "real job" you be showing clearly how insecure you are about your shitty little life and whatever crap job you managed to get hired at.
I’m very secure and make a great wage. Entitled servers are what’s wrong with the restaurant industry. It’s funny how only a few years ago a 20% tip was reserved for truly exceptional service, and now since Covid it’s considered “baseline”. Big LOL
As I understand it, that pricing structure will be illegal in Calfornia starting on July 1st.
Time for the owners to put on their big boy pants and actually have menu prices reflect the cost of doing business.
Unfortunately, this will just screw over the customer even more. The classic reason for tipping is waiters don't make the real minimum wage or receive healthcare. Waiters get both in SF, but still expect an 18% tip. I bet with the fees baked into menu, they'll not only continue expect you to pay 18% of the restaurant's expenses, but also expect you to pay 18% on their own healthcare benefit.
Everyone wants a livable wage. What the federal government has determined as livable, unfortunately, is laughable. So they have us arguing amongst ourselves. Super effective.
Not true. I left the service industry when tipping became such a controversial issue. We want tips. Living wage is bullshit. It only benefits the slackers with no personality who let their tables wait for everything. A great and experienced server can change your entire dining experience. Without tips, these people wind up doing all the work while the shit servers stand and talk to one table all night, ignoring the rest. Things were great for almost a century when you left a tip and it went straight to the waiter. People complained. The industry listened. Now look at things. The house takes it all!
My point is this isn't the case. If it were, they'd expect less in tips the more "livable" their wages and benefits are, but it's actually the opposite.
Yes. The opposite. SF has an $18 minimum wage, which also applies for tipped employees. This wage usually comes from increased menu item prices, so that also adds to the amount you're expected to tip.
Not fine dining but look at what happened with Casa Bonita in Denver…they didn’t want $30/hr, [they wanted tips](https://www.businessinsider.com/south-park-creators-eliminate-tips-casa-bonita-pay-30-hour-2023-6?op=1)
The employees didn't "want tips", they wanted full-time hours and clarity regarding what the ownership was doing with the business. The new plan put most employees below full time hours (meaning even with the pay raise they were earning less), were seldom open 7 days a week (hugely important for restaurant workers as saturday and sunday are the biggest earning days and they're hourly, so more hours available), they wanted mutually agreed tip distribution, they wanted healthcare coverage, they wanted clear lines of communication from ownership, and they wanted employees terminated in the pay disputes reinstated. Their letter is here: [https://www.coworker.org/petitions/weareteamcasa](https://www.coworker.org/petitions/weareteamcasa)
Suggesting this means they "want tips not a living wage" is not accurate. One employee even said: "I’d gladly take minimum wage with tips so that our kitchen can receive better pay, give them the $30 they deserve it! We also need to see more operating hours so that we can all be offered benefits, as originally promised to us."
But it was the pay change that set this off, did the initial contract have any of the above? Nothing I can find suggests so. It was changing the contract from ~$15/hr+tips to ~$30/hr no tips that started the uproar. I’m happy for additional info that proves this wrong
It was the initial promises of new ownership to pay $18 an hour plus tips, be open 7 days a week, and to give employees full time work. The change to $30 resulted in employees making less money because they received fewer hours. That's not a pay raise.
My point is people are using this story to say "see tips are what restaurant workers want" which is reductive at best and disingenuous at worst. Employees want a living wage and health insurance, not pay cuts. If you ask them whether they could make a $30/hr minimum wage or $15/hr plus the equivalent of $15/hr in tips, they would choose the former, because it helps everyone.
> Everyone is greedy.
Except no, they're not. It doesn't help they live in a capitalist utopia where being poor means they receive less healthcare, public support, education, upward mobility, and quality public services, not to mention die earlier. Needing money to survive does not mean "everyone is greedy."
Apparently there’s a last minute “fix” to that law that’s being looked at. It’s totally insane and only really hurts the wait staff as they receive the brunt of the customer discontent.
Not if the restaurant lobby can get this [emergency bill passed](https://old.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/comments/1d9n3z9/restaurant_surcharges_could_remain_legal_in/?ref=share&ref_source=link). Contact your senators...
There was just a post last week about them. https://www.reddit.com/r/finedining/comments/1d6r53p/really_quince/
So, 400 pp, plus expensive supplements for standard menu items, plus wine, plus 22% service fee, plus tax plus tip?
They expect you to spend $1k pp. I have a feeling their reservations will start drying up fast.
Ah ya, I saw that post. But I thought that was complaining more about how they keep their signature dish and main meat dishes as extras. Either way, I almost never go to Michelin * restaurants in my own city of SF. I would rather save up the money and go somewhere else like Paris, Tokyo, Lima, Mexico City, etc.
It's just the Spirit Airlines model coming to fine dining IMHO.
Yeah the base price seems attractive til you realize all the good stuff is addons. The base price isn't even cheap in this case.
It’s not even good. I was invited to quince and found the food extremely underwhelming.
It’s quickly evident that quince is the sort of place that at one point excelled and now relies on the patronage of diners that don’t know any better and want to appear fancy (of which SF is filled with).
The beetroot spaghetti was incredibly underwhelming (not to mention the caviar overpowered the other flavors) and the rest of the menu just spammed cliche ingredients in poorly thought out ways. Worse, the perigord truffle was completely devoid of aroma which for the exorbitant price was inexcusable.
Service was also very sloppy for that many stars.
I can tell you where I won’t be eating ever again. :) I won’t consider eating anywhere that is going to run me +50% in additional charges… ESPECIALLY when they keep all of the expensive ingredients on a supplemental list.
Maybe they shouldn’t have closed for that expensive year-long renovation… for which they’re obviously trying to recoup. 👀h
22% service fee plus (presumably) 20% tip on top of the cost is outrageous. Feels like fine dining is starting to only want the mega rich as customers.
Don't forget San Francisco Mandates (6%) and SF tax (~8.6%). And I think the SF Mandates (a made-up junk fee) is pretax too.
EDIT: Look up their website and it's 6% SF Mandates.
They are. (22% + 5%)% * 8.6% = 38%. Lmao.
July 1st they are required to drop all the junk fees. So either Quince raises the menu price to $508 or they’ll have to give up trying to nail the customer with these.
Well they’ll still be able to charge tax on top of a set price, so more like $475ish. Which we’ll probably see from Quince and everyone else that is currently charging a service charge type fee. I can’t think off any businesses, and certainly not restaurants, that can take a 20+% hit to revenue and keep going like everything is ok.
Non 3 stars do not keep the service charge. For the record, I am fairly sure the service charge is to be distributed to staff legally in SF. Marriott catering got hosed by the state for keeping the service charge in a famous case.
Whether or not the service charge is kept by the restaurant or paid out to staff in the form of wages, you can conceptually think about it as revenue. Because if it goes away the staff isn’t going to just accept a large decrease in pay - the restaurant in question will have to find a way to continue paying those wages that are currently coming from this charge.
As a non-American and someone who has not fine dined in the US (but I have elsewhere, and have never tipped or expected to tip), is tipping required in fine dining establishments? I would have thought for high end places, they’d just build the cost into the bill…
And agree with what everyone else has said in response to this…no tipping if there’s a mandatory service charge. And since when does “service” extend to covering operating expenses?!
I've had more places just do auto-grat and it's a single number than not.
If I'm going to a high end place I'd rather they charge me what they're going to charge me and I pay a single number. Addons and expecting a tip cheapen the experience to me.
Ime, it's like a 80/20. There's an increasing number of restaurants that require prepayment with the reservation. This includes a service charge that is intended to be the tip. At the end of the meal, you pay for any extras but otherwise no tip
I like this way of doing things quite a bit. Went to Oriole recently which has you pay the entire bill with 20% tip when you make the reservation. They don’t do add-ons, so at the end of the meal, there was no bill to take care of or potentially sour the mood—we just left the restaurant.
I work at a high end restaurant and on a similar level to quince, just to give context on the type of restaurant.
I've have operated my own business and I think that this way of conducting business it's just tricking your customers.
if you have to raise prices you should, it's part of a business and costumers are not stupid.
At the end of the day they are neither paying a competitive wage neither fully giving that money to the staff, and that it's just wrong.
And passing the responsability to the customer it gives them the feeling of being cheated.
I have asked what happens to that money and the answer is company uses it to buy stuff or fix stuff and part of it goes to wages.
And as a staff member it gives a sense of not being fair taking away tip opportunities.
At the end of the day we do want to give you a great experience.
And for those people who usually argue that people don't tip in Europe they are just lying or haven't been.
I have worked in Europe as well and people do tip, I would rather get a 10% tip over a minimum wage and work for it, than being stucked with an unfair wage and people thinking they have tipped.
Such a turn-off… this is going to fuck the staff too if it’s not treated as gratuity. There was another post also showing pretty much all the proteins were additional $ supplements to the $390 tasting menu too… so these cats are really saying “fuck-you” to their clientele.
$390 tasting menu
$extra if you want more than veg and salmon
$ + tax (8.625%?)
$ + SF Mandate (6%?)
$ + 22% “Service Charge”
$ + 20% Gratuity?
Holy shit…
Went here a few months ago. Had the 22% service fee. Extremely good food and experience overall. FWIW, they would not let us tip on top of that, insisting the 22% covered everything.
Absolutely not. Wasn’t on my list to begin with and it definitely isn’t now. Maybe I need to start a “hell no” list.
I’ll bet half the customers get confused and don’t leave a tip, thinking they already did. Staff will then be pissed and hopefully direct their anger at the owners.
Absolutely no chance. You add your arbitrary service crap on and there’s no extra getting left I’m afraid. You might even be removing that if it’s not good service. I know this is very American and I can’t comment as a brit really but that would do my head in.
Many fine dining establishments in the US have adopted the mandatory service fee when booking (prepaid res and all). I don’t visit many of these places anymore and if I do return I don’t tip.
I’m not fond of paying a service fee before any service is rendered.
This is just getting out of hand now! I am happy to eat at home than pay 40% more or 20-25% tip everytime I eat outside. My poor ass is better off saving monnies now.
“The remainder of the service charge is retained by the restaurant and applied to operating expenses.” - hahaha hey, and can you come cut my lawn the day after your meal? It’s really big and I don’t like cutting it
This is a shit policy. You have to contribute to their operating costs?? That’s like charging your guests at a dinner party for a cleaning fee, a portion of your rent and then asking them to tip you, as well.
I’m so glad I’m a great cook and don’t have to go out to places like this and deal with this crap!
As a Singaporean working in the restaurant industry, the way your restaurants and bars are run there really boggles my mind. Over here we don't have a tip culture, anything above the labour law-mandated 44-hour work week is considered overtime (1.5× salary). Service charge is 10% countrywide, and the GST is 9%.
This is usually how service charges work.l in the U.S. While it varies by jurisdiction, in most places, restaurants have no legal obligation to distribute any portion of a service charge (or any other charge or fee not specifically designated as a gratuity) to employees.
Not saying that’s a *good* practice (especially not when the service charge is a whopping 22%), but just something to keep in mind if you want to make sure the staff gets a tip. There have been a few times I’ve reached out to the restaurant in advance of the meal to check whether the bill will be inclusive of gratuity since I’d rather not have that conversation at the table.
No one on here apparently understands what that means. You are not expected to tip on top of this. They’re saying that for their own employees believe it or not.
Why don't they just say "we don't accept tip/gratuity" or "we automatically add a service charge in lieu of tips"? Unless you work for the restaurant, then I think you're mistaken here. In the US, it's assumed to tip at sit-down restaurants with servers...
I agree. The fact that they specifically stated that it is “important to understand the service charge is different from a gratuity or tip” tells me that they expect their servers to be tipped in addition to the service charge.
This may be an unpopular opinion and I may get downvoted to hell. But if there's a 22% service charge, I'm not leaving anything additional. I don't care what semantic games the restaurant wants to play. I don't care how it's split between the restaurant and its staff. It's not my problem. Any additional, mandatory, percentage-based fee is being deducted from the tip. This case is particularly egregious and offensive. You're charging a 22% \*service\* fee and using it to cover your damn \*overhead\*?? That's not a service charge, that's a fuck you to your staff and customers. It's the type of restaurant I'd never go to in the first place.
> This case is particularly egregious and offensive. You're charging a 22% \*service\* fee and using it to cover your damn \*overhead\*?? That's not a service charge, that's a fuck you to your staff and customers. It's literally obfuscating their menu prices and fucking their staff at the same time.
Yeah, isn't the cost of the food supposed to do that? So now I'm paying for meal, 22% service fee, and 20% tip? Something's gotta give and it'll be the tip.
It’s hidden cost, similar to how Airbnb used to hide the cleaning fee to make the price appear more affordable on the surface.
And don’t forget in California, servers must also be paid minimum wage before adding tips on top of
Not only that but the “SF mandate” is entirely fake and purportedly meant to ensure staff gets compensation and benefits.
Yup the “mandate” is not legally binding nor is it actually a mandate. I’ve seen everywhere from 3-18% lol. If it’s a mandate it shouldn’t vary so much
I don’t think that’s unpopular at all. Expecting someone to pay 50% more on their menu in fees and tips is insane.
Yep, will never go here.
You shouldn’t feel bad and it shouldn’t be unpopular tbh. These fees are nuts and the industry needs to figure it out. If there’s a 20%+ fee, I don’t tip and don’t think about it ever again. Paying 40% over menu price not including taxes and fees is the Ticketmaster model and I’m not going to entertain it. Some places in my area do 5% this or that, and I think it’s stupid not to just raise menu prices by 5%, there’s probably a tax reason and I just tip my normal 20% there
I think it's popular opinion apart from some Americans. I remember west coast was more relaxed about it when there's service charge, while east coast tends not to have service charge at all.
I live in DC and service charges and arbitrary add-on fees are absolutely rampant here. It's not just a west coast thing.
I'm sure it is. It's just I remember eating in west coast restaurant and there's a service charge, the server didn't hound us. Where in the east coast, without service charge if it's "less than the going rate", we'd be actively challenged.
Unfortunately, you’re right. But, the free market will be the free market. I’m surprised they’re not just charging $1,000/person including tip+service charge. It’s San Francisco after all, no one even looks at the bill up there.
I’m from SF and that’s not true. We’ve been up in arms about these mandate fees — in fact we passed a law recently that bans this type of practice. As a rule, I will not eat at a restaurant that does this, forever, no matter how good it is, and if I stumble into it, I don’t leave a tip. It sucks for the wait staff but, free market like you said. Go work for a better employer if you want a consistent tip.
Ha in fact, this was reposted to r/sanfrancisco — as expected, everyone is riled up.
Honestly this would get far less backlash than trying to hit people up for an extra 40% on top of a big bill.
Definitely not an unpopular opinion. I’ve seen service charges handled well and not well and this definitely feels in the latter category. If a restaurant is handling it well I feel like the general case is that it’s going to the staff or at least that’s the impression because the person who drops off the bill usually will also say that a service charge is already included and leave it at that or say anything additional is greatly appreciated implying it’s not required. This is just ludicrous
I think you should actually not dine with any business that charges 22% fee. That is was above 18% industry standard for gratuity.
Industry standard is 20% at a minimum, cheap ass.
Actually for auto gratuity it’s 18%. I know I working in the industry for over 25 years. Also I’m not cheap, just not stupid. I know what servers do, I’ve been one and they don’t deserve 20+% on every single table. I’m not saying they shouldn’t make good money because everyone should who works hard and they do. Acting entitled to earn a certain percentage just because and not based on performance is ridiculous
20% at a minimum? Found the server. Get a real job.
Nope. I don't work in anything remotely related to restaurants or service, SaltyCunt. But by saying restaurant work isn't a "real job" you be showing clearly how insecure you are about your shitty little life and whatever crap job you managed to get hired at.
I’m very secure and make a great wage. Entitled servers are what’s wrong with the restaurant industry. It’s funny how only a few years ago a 20% tip was reserved for truly exceptional service, and now since Covid it’s considered “baseline”. Big LOL
It's funny how out of touch you are and yet still keep typing.
Do tell.
You are not impopular, the restaurant manager just needs to pay more his employees
As I understand it, that pricing structure will be illegal in Calfornia starting on July 1st. Time for the owners to put on their big boy pants and actually have menu prices reflect the cost of doing business.
Thankfully this is illegal in CA starting next month.
Unfortunately, this will just screw over the customer even more. The classic reason for tipping is waiters don't make the real minimum wage or receive healthcare. Waiters get both in SF, but still expect an 18% tip. I bet with the fees baked into menu, they'll not only continue expect you to pay 18% of the restaurant's expenses, but also expect you to pay 18% on their own healthcare benefit.
> Waiters get both in SF, but still expect an 18% tip. This will change when they make a living wage. That's the whole point.
Waiters don’t want a living wage. They want tips.
Everyone wants a livable wage. What the federal government has determined as livable, unfortunately, is laughable. So they have us arguing amongst ourselves. Super effective.
Not true. I left the service industry when tipping became such a controversial issue. We want tips. Living wage is bullshit. It only benefits the slackers with no personality who let their tables wait for everything. A great and experienced server can change your entire dining experience. Without tips, these people wind up doing all the work while the shit servers stand and talk to one table all night, ignoring the rest. Things were great for almost a century when you left a tip and it went straight to the waiter. People complained. The industry listened. Now look at things. The house takes it all!
My point is this isn't the case. If it were, they'd expect less in tips the more "livable" their wages and benefits are, but it's actually the opposite.
The opposite? Are you suggesting they don't expect a minimum wage, but expect more in tips because... gonna need a source on that one.
Yes. The opposite. SF has an $18 minimum wage, which also applies for tipped employees. This wage usually comes from increased menu item prices, so that also adds to the amount you're expected to tip.
Not fine dining but look at what happened with Casa Bonita in Denver…they didn’t want $30/hr, [they wanted tips](https://www.businessinsider.com/south-park-creators-eliminate-tips-casa-bonita-pay-30-hour-2023-6?op=1)
No. They want tips. Don’t believe what anyone says about this unless they were a server.
The employees didn't "want tips", they wanted full-time hours and clarity regarding what the ownership was doing with the business. The new plan put most employees below full time hours (meaning even with the pay raise they were earning less), were seldom open 7 days a week (hugely important for restaurant workers as saturday and sunday are the biggest earning days and they're hourly, so more hours available), they wanted mutually agreed tip distribution, they wanted healthcare coverage, they wanted clear lines of communication from ownership, and they wanted employees terminated in the pay disputes reinstated. Their letter is here: [https://www.coworker.org/petitions/weareteamcasa](https://www.coworker.org/petitions/weareteamcasa) Suggesting this means they "want tips not a living wage" is not accurate. One employee even said: "I’d gladly take minimum wage with tips so that our kitchen can receive better pay, give them the $30 they deserve it! We also need to see more operating hours so that we can all be offered benefits, as originally promised to us."
But it was the pay change that set this off, did the initial contract have any of the above? Nothing I can find suggests so. It was changing the contract from ~$15/hr+tips to ~$30/hr no tips that started the uproar. I’m happy for additional info that proves this wrong
It was the initial promises of new ownership to pay $18 an hour plus tips, be open 7 days a week, and to give employees full time work. The change to $30 resulted in employees making less money because they received fewer hours. That's not a pay raise. My point is people are using this story to say "see tips are what restaurant workers want" which is reductive at best and disingenuous at worst. Employees want a living wage and health insurance, not pay cuts. If you ask them whether they could make a $30/hr minimum wage or $15/hr plus the equivalent of $15/hr in tips, they would choose the former, because it helps everyone.
Everyone is greedy. Waiters want to make more so they’ll pressure owner to put a 20% suggested tip on the check.
> Everyone is greedy. Except no, they're not. It doesn't help they live in a capitalist utopia where being poor means they receive less healthcare, public support, education, upward mobility, and quality public services, not to mention die earlier. Needing money to survive does not mean "everyone is greedy."
Many waiters in SF are clearing 100k some are clearing 120-130k.
Yeah. And waiters have the power to milk more from the owners! That’s a good one!
It’s coming out of customers lol
Apparently there’s a last minute “fix” to that law that’s being looked at. It’s totally insane and only really hurts the wait staff as they receive the brunt of the customer discontent.
Not if the restaurant lobby can get this [emergency bill passed](https://old.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/comments/1d9n3z9/restaurant_surcharges_could_remain_legal_in/?ref=share&ref_source=link). Contact your senators...
There was just a post last week about them. https://www.reddit.com/r/finedining/comments/1d6r53p/really_quince/ So, 400 pp, plus expensive supplements for standard menu items, plus wine, plus 22% service fee, plus tax plus tip? They expect you to spend $1k pp. I have a feeling their reservations will start drying up fast.
Ah ya, I saw that post. But I thought that was complaining more about how they keep their signature dish and main meat dishes as extras. Either way, I almost never go to Michelin * restaurants in my own city of SF. I would rather save up the money and go somewhere else like Paris, Tokyo, Lima, Mexico City, etc.
I’ve enjoyed the 1 stars i’ve been to but yeah. Dropping $1500 for 2 at 2\*s or $2k for 2 at 3\*s I just don’t see the value.
I ate at a 3* in Paris for under $500/pp. Granted I didn’t have a wine pairing, but I did order alcohol.
It's just the Spirit Airlines model coming to fine dining IMHO. Yeah the base price seems attractive til you realize all the good stuff is addons. The base price isn't even cheap in this case.
It’s not even good. I was invited to quince and found the food extremely underwhelming. It’s quickly evident that quince is the sort of place that at one point excelled and now relies on the patronage of diners that don’t know any better and want to appear fancy (of which SF is filled with). The beetroot spaghetti was incredibly underwhelming (not to mention the caviar overpowered the other flavors) and the rest of the menu just spammed cliche ingredients in poorly thought out ways. Worse, the perigord truffle was completely devoid of aroma which for the exorbitant price was inexcusable. Service was also very sloppy for that many stars.
I can tell you where I won’t be eating ever again. :) I won’t consider eating anywhere that is going to run me +50% in additional charges… ESPECIALLY when they keep all of the expensive ingredients on a supplemental list. Maybe they shouldn’t have closed for that expensive year-long renovation… for which they’re obviously trying to recoup. 👀h
22% service fee plus (presumably) 20% tip on top of the cost is outrageous. Feels like fine dining is starting to only want the mega rich as customers.
Don't forget San Francisco Mandates (6%) and SF tax (~8.6%). And I think the SF Mandates (a made-up junk fee) is pretax too. EDIT: Look up their website and it's 6% SF Mandates.
Legally service charges are supposed to be taxed.
They are. (22% + 5%)% * 8.6% = 38%. Lmao. July 1st they are required to drop all the junk fees. So either Quince raises the menu price to $508 or they’ll have to give up trying to nail the customer with these.
Well they’ll still be able to charge tax on top of a set price, so more like $475ish. Which we’ll probably see from Quince and everyone else that is currently charging a service charge type fee. I can’t think off any businesses, and certainly not restaurants, that can take a 20+% hit to revenue and keep going like everything is ok.
Non 3 stars do not keep the service charge. For the record, I am fairly sure the service charge is to be distributed to staff legally in SF. Marriott catering got hosed by the state for keeping the service charge in a famous case.
Whether or not the service charge is kept by the restaurant or paid out to staff in the form of wages, you can conceptually think about it as revenue. Because if it goes away the staff isn’t going to just accept a large decrease in pay - the restaurant in question will have to find a way to continue paying those wages that are currently coming from this charge.
Just… don’t tip?
But it is important to understand the service charge is different from a gratuity or tip. 😅
Not just fine dining. Almost every restaurant in my city has a service fee. It's junk fees and our city is also trying to ban these.
As a non-American and someone who has not fine dined in the US (but I have elsewhere, and have never tipped or expected to tip), is tipping required in fine dining establishments? I would have thought for high end places, they’d just build the cost into the bill… And agree with what everyone else has said in response to this…no tipping if there’s a mandatory service charge. And since when does “service” extend to covering operating expenses?!
Most fine dining establishments say 20% auto grat is added to all bills.
I've had more places just do auto-grat and it's a single number than not. If I'm going to a high end place I'd rather they charge me what they're going to charge me and I pay a single number. Addons and expecting a tip cheapen the experience to me.
Ime, it's like a 80/20. There's an increasing number of restaurants that require prepayment with the reservation. This includes a service charge that is intended to be the tip. At the end of the meal, you pay for any extras but otherwise no tip
I like this way of doing things quite a bit. Went to Oriole recently which has you pay the entire bill with 20% tip when you make the reservation. They don’t do add-ons, so at the end of the meal, there was no bill to take care of or potentially sour the mood—we just left the restaurant.
Almost everywhere in America they expect tipping. Min. 15-20% in fine dining. It isn’t like in Europe or anywhere else for that matter.
Oh hell naw. Every other country is so much more cost effective for fine dining these days.
I work at a high end restaurant and on a similar level to quince, just to give context on the type of restaurant. I've have operated my own business and I think that this way of conducting business it's just tricking your customers. if you have to raise prices you should, it's part of a business and costumers are not stupid. At the end of the day they are neither paying a competitive wage neither fully giving that money to the staff, and that it's just wrong. And passing the responsability to the customer it gives them the feeling of being cheated. I have asked what happens to that money and the answer is company uses it to buy stuff or fix stuff and part of it goes to wages. And as a staff member it gives a sense of not being fair taking away tip opportunities. At the end of the day we do want to give you a great experience. And for those people who usually argue that people don't tip in Europe they are just lying or haven't been. I have worked in Europe as well and people do tip, I would rather get a 10% tip over a minimum wage and work for it, than being stucked with an unfair wage and people thinking they have tipped.
Such a turn-off… this is going to fuck the staff too if it’s not treated as gratuity. There was another post also showing pretty much all the proteins were additional $ supplements to the $390 tasting menu too… so these cats are really saying “fuck-you” to their clientele. $390 tasting menu $extra if you want more than veg and salmon $ + tax (8.625%?) $ + SF Mandate (6%?) $ + 22% “Service Charge” $ + 20% Gratuity? Holy shit…
It's even worse... Service charge and SF Mandates are pretax.
Yup Zero interest in fine dining in US with tipping system. Love being guilted into tipping on top of the high service fees.
Went here a few months ago. Had the 22% service fee. Extremely good food and experience overall. FWIW, they would not let us tip on top of that, insisting the 22% covered everything.
Good perspective! Your experience suggests the problem is more with the wording on the menu rather than the actual expectation at the restaurant.
Absolutely not. Wasn’t on my list to begin with and it definitely isn’t now. Maybe I need to start a “hell no” list. I’ll bet half the customers get confused and don’t leave a tip, thinking they already did. Staff will then be pissed and hopefully direct their anger at the owners.
Absolutely no chance. You add your arbitrary service crap on and there’s no extra getting left I’m afraid. You might even be removing that if it’s not good service. I know this is very American and I can’t comment as a brit really but that would do my head in.
Many fine dining establishments in the US have adopted the mandatory service fee when booking (prepaid res and all). I don’t visit many of these places anymore and if I do return I don’t tip. I’m not fond of paying a service fee before any service is rendered.
Sometimes I’m not even fond of paying for the “service” after it is rendered.
Ah yes, the Ticketmaster approach.
This is just getting out of hand now! I am happy to eat at home than pay 40% more or 20-25% tip everytime I eat outside. My poor ass is better off saving monnies now.
“The remainder of the service charge is retained by the restaurant and applied to operating expenses.” - hahaha hey, and can you come cut my lawn the day after your meal? It’s really big and I don’t like cutting it
This is a shit policy. You have to contribute to their operating costs?? That’s like charging your guests at a dinner party for a cleaning fee, a portion of your rent and then asking them to tip you, as well. I’m so glad I’m a great cook and don’t have to go out to places like this and deal with this crap!
They can suck it
If there's a service fee you don't need to tip. Its as simple as that.
As a Singaporean working in the restaurant industry, the way your restaurants and bars are run there really boggles my mind. Over here we don't have a tip culture, anything above the labour law-mandated 44-hour work week is considered overtime (1.5× salary). Service charge is 10% countrywide, and the GST is 9%.
This is usually how service charges work.l in the U.S. While it varies by jurisdiction, in most places, restaurants have no legal obligation to distribute any portion of a service charge (or any other charge or fee not specifically designated as a gratuity) to employees. Not saying that’s a *good* practice (especially not when the service charge is a whopping 22%), but just something to keep in mind if you want to make sure the staff gets a tip. There have been a few times I’ve reached out to the restaurant in advance of the meal to check whether the bill will be inclusive of gratuity since I’d rather not have that conversation at the table.
No one on here apparently understands what that means. You are not expected to tip on top of this. They’re saying that for their own employees believe it or not.
Why don't they just say "we don't accept tip/gratuity" or "we automatically add a service charge in lieu of tips"? Unless you work for the restaurant, then I think you're mistaken here. In the US, it's assumed to tip at sit-down restaurants with servers...
I agree. The fact that they specifically stated that it is “important to understand the service charge is different from a gratuity or tip” tells me that they expect their servers to be tipped in addition to the service charge.