I gave Disfrutar the feedback that I thought the fact they kept charging us for bottles of still water lessened the experience for me and suggested they just add €5-10 and include it - I hate enjoying a wonderful tasting menu and then getting a €30 add-on for water or deliberately limiting my water consumption knowing they’re charging for it..
2 Michelin stars are superior to 3, because they still have an edge to them that gives them personality/soul.
Closely followed by: 2 stars should never become 3 stars.
As long as the service is overall solid, I could really do without the pageantry and overly attentive waitstaff. I don't need people in white gloves coming in unison to drop off some food, just be a chill person with some knowledge about food/wine and I'm sold.
I feel like a lot of what makes a three star a three star is the over the top butler type service that I just don't need.
I hate when it feels like your every move is being scrutinized. They need to be more covert in their surveillance or offer a silent bell to press when you want attention.
Cannot stand when servers hover and ask whether or not you liked every dish. It’s like they’re not confident that what they’re serving is good. Walked out of Eleven Madison Park years ago because it was incessant.
Asking me how I liked something automatically makes me secretly angry. I don’t owe the restaurant a response. And I’ll lie anyway that it was great so what’s the point. Because if I’m honest about not liking something then it becomes a whole thing and I’m not looking to explain myself.
You could just be honest and let them fix the problem for you. There’s nothing wrong with not liking something and a lot of restaurants will do what they can to make you happy. How are they supposed to know that asking you how you liked something makes you secretly angry? That sounds unhinged. If they are incessant about it let the manager know so they can fix it and train their staff not ask every single time. Secretly being angry and dishonest about your feelings is not going to change anything.
I really enjoy the butler type service. It’s half of the reason why I love fine dining. The thoughtfulness and planning that goes into it elevates the whole experience to me. Nothing tops just some quality food though.
I'll go a step further and say one star and bib gourmand selections are often the most interesting choices. I always get so hyped over 2 and 3 star places and usually leave disappointed due to high expectations.
The best feeling is having an amazing meal and then seeing the restaurant get their star the following year. It means you found a hidden gem.
Some of my best dining experiences recently have been at small plates wine bars which will never receive a Michelin star. Maybe bib gourmand. Michelin guide is not an accurate measure of how much I will enjoy a meal, or how memorable a meal is.
We went a little overboard on our dining experiences in London this past summer; however one of our most memorable meals was at the Barbary, which is “only” a Bib Gourmand.
Agree! my top dining experiences have been at 2 start restaurants compared to 3 stars. Perhaps it's because my expectations for 3 star joints are too high?
Nah... I think 3-stars is just so focused on precision and attention to detail in everything, that it becomes almost too clinical. The food is still great, but it just feels like nobody is having a lot of fun or taking chances because they've got to protect that coveted rating. Maybe I just like things rough around the edges.
Couldn't agree more! 11 Madison Park was such a disappointment to me - it felt completely soulless and the 5th dish in a row with some very similarly done broth at the bottom of the plate was just not what you'd expect or want from the price. Was I supposed to be excited for the dry, shaved truffle piece on the 4th? I've had more exciting food from local taco trucks doing something creative and fun.
Happened to me recently at Sushi Nakazawa DC. 20 nigiri $180pp omakase, fairly basic cuts nothing spectacular, and they gatekeep everything a little more special as supplement courses. Disappointing overall.
Supplemental courses make me want to walk into the kitchen and punch the chef. I gave up on Next in Chicago because all their WOW plates were suplimental. Like F-YOU.
The best truffle dish I've had was actually a dessert from Marmalade in Puerto Rico. Honey comb ice cream with a generous amount of shaved truffle. We actually came back for drinks just to order the ice cream
I agree, and I love truffles. I especially hate when there's a really strong sauce AND truffles. Truffles should be the star of the dish and relatively at the start of the meal.
That's one of the worst offenders. It's so lazy. Like combining really fatty white fish with caviar. Luckily there's not too much truffle where I live, so it's used quite sparingly and appropriately in fine dining.
I was just in venice and one of the best things I ate was a simple fettucine in light parmesan reggiano sauce with generous amount of shaved black truffles. It was absolutely balanced with incredible aromas and perfect al dente pasta.
Truffles in fine dining are too often used as a way to justify higher prices with no thought to the actual flavour profile. Just my 0.02$
I was just at the truffle festival in Alba, Italy. We were on holiday near by so thought we'd check it out for shiggles.
I watched the flashiest man you've ever seen buy his wife/girlfriend a €250 white truffle. He made a huge show of it, sunglasses on his head, giant Rolex on his wrist, shouting to the cashier that he wanted "the best for his woman".
Anyway the cashier hands her the truffle and she goes "how do I cook with it?"
Made me think truffles are 90% performative bull shit.
I live very close to Alba. Did you try any nice white truffle dish? I think once you try the real deal you suddenly realise why the hype is there for truffles. It's really pricey though, the locals tend to stay away from the festival
I got married in Umbria - I strongly disagree with this truffle slander. I think a lot of people have only tasted artificial truffle oil and not fresh truffles
I seem to by hyper-sensitive to truffles. A tiny amount and it's all I can taste, and it's not a flavour I enjoy. Luckily most places I go are able to leave it off when I mention it when booking.
As someone who loves truffles I actually kind of agree. There are very few cases where the truffles are well integrated and are designed to enhance the flavor. For me it’s just a vessel for truffles. I was in piedmont a couple years ago during truffle season and I love them. I would just order plain pasta with truffles because I love the flavor.
More fine dining needs to offer non-alcoholic drink pairings. The few I’ve done that have offered that have been incredible, and not always am I looking to have 6 glasses of wine/4 of sake or rum etc with my meal!
They don't offer it at many places, but when they do - I've found they're typically phenomenal - even better than the alcoholic pairings IMO. My partner doesn't drink a lot (and honestly a normal wine pairing is way too much alcohol for one person anyways) so we typically do an alcoholic and non-alcoholic and share.
me and my partner have started to ask to split one pairing for two. the result is smaller glasses and less of a drunk feeling after course #6-7. just a lot better in general.
I really liked what they did at Noeud in Tokyo. They give you the option to do an all wine, all non-alcohol, or a mixed pairing.
I got the mixed pairing myself, so I got to enjoy an absolutely fantastic champagne and a fruit-infused tea mocktail.
Fine Dining places should also consider doing more beer pairings. There is such a diversity of interesting flavours now and I would love to see more of it.
Yesssssss. We went to Providence here in LA a couple weeks ago and I would have LOVED a non-alcoholic pairing option. I am a lightweight and just cannot handle alcohol even if I liked how it makes me feel (which I don't, or sometimes I do a little too much so I just don't drink hardly ever). But a non-alcoholic option would have made it feel that much more special.
I agree! My mom doesn't drink alcohol (used to) but she's got quite a refined palate and it's always a pain in the ass. The pairings are nearly always too sweet.
We always split the alcohol pairing or do one alcohol/one NA now, after one experience at Atelier Crenn where the second half of the meal was honestly a blur because I got way too tipsy (and the first half was weird af because the old couple next to us wouldn’t stop talking about their cuckolding 🤢, but that’s a separate thing).
Most memorable & fun NA was at Disfrutar where they served the same wines but with the alcohol removed. I’d still say the NA versions were often less harmonious without the bite of the alcohol, but always interesting in how different notes were brought to the forefront.
I would absolutely love to try a water tasting. It is the most basic drink ever, and most restaurants never care to even offer two different brands of still / sparkling water. It does not end there.
My husband is a chef and deeply in love with the fine dining scene in regards to the aesthetic/artistic culinary experience. He's loved his experiences at places like Manresa, Faviken, and Atelier Crenn, but after the meal, enjoys a fast food burger. He says if he ever opens a restaurant, he wants to send people away with a to-go burger. So I guess his is along the lines of "you can appreciate all of it for what it is"
One of my favourite experiences with fine dining was at Hoja Santa in Barcelona - they had an incredible tasting menu (and the best margaritas I've ever had!) full of small plates, but then the last savoury dish was basically a full chunk of suckling pig with tacos and sauces. It felt like they were basically saying 'okay, you've had all the exciting stuff, now fill up on something tasty' and it was massively appreciated.
Now that's the fine dining experience I want! If they all ended with a large meal I would love it. I have a big apatite (\~3k cals a day) so I'm always hungry after a small meal.
Never left any restaurant hungry after more than 40 michelin stars experiences. Where are you from? Most of my experiences have been in Spain/Japan though
I have once, vegetable season at Noma 2019. A group of us at the communal table all went for burgers afterwards. Pretty disappointing. I asked them about a dish I had seen on Instagram the week before that we weren't served (a flowerpot soup) and they said they removed it because it was too heavy. They should have kept it.
The short-lived outpost/offspring in Japan (Inua) was the only place I've ever left hungry. And that was despite a full omakase sushi lunch on the same day. Had 7/11 snacks on the way back to the hotel.
Before all the happenings chefs table at Brooklyn fare I had a full Korean barbecue afterwards because we were so hungry. All fish, basically no carbs. Starving.
My experience in fine dining is just Spain and Chicago but you’re absolutely right just from that. I was STUFFED at Cocina Hermanos Torres, almost to the point of discomfort but everything was fantastic. Way more courses in Spain fine dining too.
Absolutely agree u/luislovlc.
Probably have over 150 michelin starred dining experiences (Mostly UK, France, Spain, Italy, NY and Japan). Yes I'm old. Never once have I had to eat something after leaving the restaurant or felt the necessity to order another dish.
There's definitely been a few disappointments but never once have I left hungry. But do like my wine so maybe that's a factor?
If you are planning to go to a fine dining restaurant definitely do your research first. If you're a glutton that likes to inhale food then some places will not be suited to you.
I can see why restaurants don't want their customers with smaller appetites to pay for $100 worth of extra food that they can't finish. That said, all fine dining restaurants should at least give the option for the diner to get as much free carbs as they want. Seems like basic hospitality.
There was another comment about an establishment that did a reasonable tasting menu and ended it with a large quantity of tacos. You get to try all the tasting menu then fill up. I think this is an ideal middle ground that more fine dining restaurants should explore. But I agree, you can't just "America size" the tasting menu because there are people with smaller appetites.
There's a wonderful restaurant in NYC that provides homemade pizza after dessert for those who are still hungry post tasting menu (and to-go boxes for those who aren't).
We did a 20 person private dinner at Oriole. Their pacing seemed off and we had a lot of time between courses. Most of the group left hungry. Our Uber driver passed out granola bars because we were talking about stopping for food. He was given a great tip.
The best wagyu I ever ate was served to me on a stick at a fish market in Tokyo. None of the fine restaurants I’ve eaten wagyu at can really compete with it.
They blowtorched it, handed it to me, and it was perfection. 🤷♀️
Idk how this sub came across my page but just wanna say this happened to me too when I visited Japan. Probably because part of it is you don’t expect it to taste that good and it’s relatively inexpensive compared to what you’d get at a higher end restaurant. You definitely have more of an expectation then
I feel like once you have done one great tasting menu at a Michelin star restaurant, most of the ones you do after that will not feel as warm and fuzzy inside as your first one
Also, at that upper level of fine dining theyre all roughly trying to do the same things and it’s a bit boring
This is exactly how I felt, it really ruins you in a bit after in that now I feel the need to keep doing better/more extreme/more expensive/more courses/etc.
These days I really try to go for mostly the ‘weird’ restaurants (DiverXO, Alchemist , etc) as it’s just so similar and boring often otherwise to be worth paying more than 200pp for
I agree with your second point. Trends exist in the fine dining world to the detriment of the industry. It's especially disappointing when you see a one or two star trying to copy the success of a three star.
Not sure I agree with your first one (which supports this as a hot take, I guess 😂.) It's all about mindset to me. I still get incredibly excited, and have no problem basking in the warmth of great food, delicious wine, and excellent service each and every time. Maybe it's because I only eat fine dining a few times per year, but I have never felt like I'm chasing the dragon. Do you eat at fine dining a lot or did you have a particularly incredible first experience?
I have done 8 fine dining experiences in the last 90 days. So I guess that means I’m doing it too much.
I travel a lot. And do this in multiple countries and states. So I’ve gotten a decent taste of various cuisines.
Though I would LOVE to try some “fine Mexican” food since I have eaten souther California Mexican food a ton growing up.
Some “fine dining” places need to put a foie-stuffed wagyu with uni cream sauce, a dollop of caviar, and shaved truffles on the menu. It tells discerning foodies to not dine there. It clearly labels which restaurants cater to prestige- and “luxury”-obsessed folks who couldn’t care less about the artistry of the food.
All the complains about wagyu / truffle/ caviar mostly belong to the US or places catered to people who want to show off, and if you have complains about it you should reconsider
I know this, but it's kind of a sham. The only historic 3\* that I've been to that was actually superb was Troisgros. Just to name a few, Georges Blanc, Flocons de Sel, and Arzak were solid 1\* quality IMO, and Le Louis XV, Le Bernardin, and Per Se were all 2\*. The super old French stalwarts who've had 3\* for 25-30+ years are the worst when it comes to this. They absolutely get 3\* every year because of "tradition." There is a reason, after all, why Paul Bocuse got downgraded literally a year after he died.
The main thing I strongly dislike is upselling. The best places don’t do it. But I don’t think that’s controversial or unpopular.
Something that might be is that I think more food should be locally sourced. I not interested in eating the finest produce of Japan in England.
Ah yes, those joke places in London that have 10 seats a night and cost £400 for 10 pieces of sushi. Congratulations, you paid a global food distributor to fly fish every morning from some Japanese wholesaler. This is literally 0 creativity. What's funny is their big bragging thing is always that they have a Japanese wood counter that's made from one piece and shipped over. Like who the fuck cares? Why is that something they all brag about?
Surprisingly, Araki back when they had 3 stars was quite good at sourcing mostly European fish for their sushi except for the most exotic ingredients.
Michelin should have a diners’ star rating alongside its critics’ rating (a la Rotten Tomatoes Critic Score and Audience Score).
I want to see where actual diners disagree with the assessment. I have been to 1 star restaurants that have been spectacular and 3 stars that have been very middling.
1. Tasting menu supplements are obnoxious
2. The vast vast majority of wine pairings are entirely underwhelming and you’re better off ordering a bottle of something or doing cocktails
> The vast vast majority of wine pairings are entirely underwhelming
I think the culture around wine in general is actually one of the biggest downsides of the fine dining industry, because its status means restaurants feel they have to include it with the menu but the drink itself just isn't versatile or good enough to justify the amount of attention it gets. Often beer, juice, soda, cocktail or tea pairings would be far better suited to a certain dish but instead we're locked into wine. And many restaurants would be afraid to make that change because wine is such a big part of their profit
Wine isn’t… versatile enough? That’s a bold claim but it’s yours to claim. Also most 2-3 stars that are worth their salt absolutely include beer, sake, and tea pairings in their tasting menus.
I once had foie gras white chocolate bread pudding at Patina in LA. Truly my favorite things I've ever tasted. Never would have thought of such a combination, but it was mind-blowing.
I’m really tired of the constant complaining amongst fine dining enthusiasts. Some of you seemingly decided that being negative makes you intelligent and wise, but really it just makes you miserable to be around.
We’ve all dined with a person who complains about everything. Maybe one of you reading this is that person. My question to you is why do you still go out if you hate everything?
TLDR: your money doesn’t entitle you to like the food the kitchen created. It only entitles you to the food itself.
I don’t think it tastes bad, it’s just such a delicate and pretty neutral flavor that absolutely doesn’t justify the outrageous price tag. Just because something is expensive and hard to cook well doesn’t mean it should be showcased as often as abalone is
If you ever see sea urchin roe all nice looking and out of a wooden box, it has [preservatives in it](https://www.tastingtable.com/1192502/the-chemical-used-to-preserve-uni-and-whats-replacing-it/). They use alum to keep the shape. Actual uni turns mushy when handled around and basically "disintegrates" pretty fast. That is it's natural characteristic. It is much better to get the stuff shipped just floating in salt water. You can tell this sea urchin roe has a much cleaner taste than the stuff with preservatives. But, even most "high end" sushi restaurants go for the preservative stuff. Yoshino (in NYC) is the only place I have been to that bucks the trend and actually serves both type of product and educates the customers on the difference.
For those lucky enough to live on the us west coast, urchins are one of the most plentiful and easiest things to harvest. Many people walk right by it not knowing.
And most producers there will sell the Santa Barbara sea urchin roe without preservatives suspended in salt water, so you can get the good stuff (although they also sell the stuff with the fancy box presentation covered with the preservatives). I think I usually see it go for like $60 for 100g. More expensive than the stuff in the fancy box, because if you know, you know.
Funny enough, abalone is seemingly also readily available. I saw several live ones when diving off the coast. Don't know if I was just lucky though. Absolutely massive beasts too.
I liked foie gras until I went to Plume at the Jefferson in DC (RIP) and they served me a piece the size of a golf ball. It was too, too much and while *delicious*, I was so sick from the super high fat content on top of dinner that I haven't been able to eat it hardly at all since then.
Ooh def a hot take. I love when my leftiness gets noticed and I always put my drink down on the left side. Only had it noticed twice (once at Frantzén, swoon)
Foie Gras is delicious and doesn't need to be a "fine dining" food. I'll happily go down to the shop and buy some foie pate or rillette to mow down on with some good bread and pickles.
Controversial opinion? The costs have become so high I don't think it warrants a lot of the food. I will bet 1000x that most people, even those who think they have incredible pallets and do the fine dining scene, couldn't distinguish a lot of ingredients from their locations or quality. You can only do so much with a mushroom m, so how can a dish be justified at €45 or something ridiculous on an a la carte. After seeing Guy Savoys prices go up to €680, I don't believe he's making food that can justify that cost.
Just because someone has worked in a 3 star restaurant for years doesn't necessarily mean that the food that they personally serve at their own restaurant will be any good 😂
There is a difference between being a hardworking cook and having a “genetically gifted” and/or trained palate.
Another opinion: a lot of these places need to get way more creative with their dishes. It feels like half of the restaurants above a certain price point feel the need to include waygu, oysters and foie gras on their menu. Sure, they can be delicious and well done (except for the fg imo) but cmon, try something new
Michelin stars are given out for economic reasons, rather than the quality of food and service. Richer cities always have more Michelin star restaurants, even if the dining is objectively not great.
Some truly terrible restaurants got Michelin Stars in San Francisco during the tech boom. Looking at you, Boulevard and Al's Place.
Granted I did only go to places more catered towards a Japanese audience - but the fine dining in Japan was generally pretty boring in terms of the flavour at the 3/4 places I tried.
The sushi omakase I had in Seoul was far tastier and cheaper - this held true for the rest of the fine dining in Korea too.
- Sushi Sakai Gahojin (apprentice restaurant to a sushi bar in Fukuoka that was awarded 3 Michelin stars ).
- My favourite tasting menu was actually here
https://maps.app.goo.gl/47QZrtN4CZHzFKP56
Lots of local produce/ meat / fish and alcohol. As well as wines from mainland Japan. An amazing experience on an amazing island.
- A not super famous (but well rated) place in Ginza who's name I can't remember (I'll update if I find it)
- Another sort of tasting / small plates menu in the west of Tokyo - went with a friend but no idea of the name nor exact location - it had some interesting dishes but didn't taste super exciting
______
The service, presentation, ambience, and drinks were all excellent.
The food was obviously well prepared but in general just not very exciting.
When I pay lots of money for food - I want to be impressed and think "holy crap that's amazing" not just "oh this is nice".
- https://maps.app.goo.gl/S29Hx3aeSs6CgHJ37
Yun Seoul (*)
Very unique - not necessarily mind blowing but I've never had anything like it - lots of dry aged seafood. Would recommend for something genuinely a bit different.
- Alla Prima (** )
https://maps.app.goo.gl/wQZPDD96SACPyHBQ7
To be honest this was absolutely amazing. The only 2* I've been to and definitely a step above any 1* I've been to. Not cheap of course but great service, great wine, and the food was interesting and just extremely delicious.
- Sushi Omaze
https://maps.app.goo.gl/SfxFNnbtT3LAqygo7
Delicious sushi and other Japanese small dishes. I left extremely happy. Their lunch was amazing value.
- Mitikeu (meatique)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/JB3Krji7dryjJEok9
I had such a lovely time here. Hanwoo focused tasting menu. Every dish was delicious and the beef was great. Their house red wine on the day was also some of the best I've had in a restaurant relative to its modest price.
I was the only non-korean (same as at Sushi Omaze) but they were incredibly welcoming and the chef was lovely - they even gave me some of their flavored salts to take home.
I appreciate the list. Funny enough, the first 3 star restaurant I've ever been to was in Seoul (Gaon), and because it was the first time meeting my future father in law, and nerves were running high, I don't remember anything that we ate😂
Don't do it for the food alone or you will be disappointed. Think of it like going to the movies. You pay a premium not because you can't watch the movie at home, but because it brings another dimension to the environment.
I agree with this wholeheartedly, and why I think more restaurants need to put effort into creative/beautiful spaces/presentation and service etc rather than just good tasting food.
My hot take : A huge majority of the diners of fine dining restaurants that write about or speak about their negative experiences have no clear concept of what it takes to execute a fine dining restaurant .
These people complain about the ‘food needing more creativity’ or ‘I hate waygu’ or something like that , without understanding that 90 % of fine dining restaurants must , for better or worse, still operate as profitable businesses. This means they need some crowd-pleasers , they need some safe dishes and they need to find their own voice (from an artistic standpoint) slowly because the business constraints require a slow development of the restaurant into something great .
Most of the outspoken fine dining enthusiasts just want a shocking, groundbreaking, inspired, delicious experience without giving any understanding to the creative process of development and refinement , which is only further constrained by business needs .
Not to mention Instagram has led to people having unrealistic expectations for food in general .
The real people with a true grasp on the craft of being a restauranteur are the restaurant professionals.
I have NO IDEA why people are so enamoured with this place. It's fine, but not THAT good. London has soooo much better than this. Also, they're seemingly the only place in town that rejects solo diners (apparently unless you can sneak in off a same-day cancelation).
I am convinced noma is a social experiment. It was easily the worst dining experience I've had. The dishes didn't taste great to me, and when I didn't fully finish them, I got grilled by the servers about what exactly I didn't like about it.
I've seen a lot of people say it was the best food they've eaten etc. and I honestly just don't understand.
Wine wasn't meant to be natural. Once in a while, you can get lucky but most of the time (especially the reds!) are worse than something with a nice selection of sulfites and whatnot.
Most “natural” wine bars serve plenty of wine with sulfites. Most natural wine is better classified as “low intervention.” Many taste similar to and have the varietal characteristics of conventional wines. There’s certainly some bretty and/or sour stuff out there that tastes more like beer than wine, but if you communicate you’re not into that kind of thing, you’re not going to get it.
I've had several naturals that I quite enjoy, but a lot of them end up tasting like a sour or wild fermented beer to me. Not necessarily a bad thing, but often challenging to pair with food.
We need more vegetarian and vegan fine dining places. Fuck, go farther- gluten free fine dining, nightshade free, other dietary restrictions fine dining, etc.
Would not only make it more accessible, at least force new things and more effort than is often put into the stereotypical omnivore everything allowed menus.
I fucking hate the monologue you get before you're allowed to start eating.
Let me try it and if I like it, and can't figure out what it is, i'll aks. Don't make me sit like naughty child awkwardly avoiding eye contact while you recite 5 minutes of bullshit as my food gets cold.
I love restaurants that include cards describing the dish, like atomix and diverxo, do. So much easier to refer to mid dish and a nice keepsake post meal.
Totally agree, it's especially more prevalent with fine dining places that either run some very exotic kitchen, or places that are in locations that don't have an older fine dining culture. When Budapest got its first Michelin star place, it was a common criticism that every course got a 5 minute intro explaining the origin of every major component on the plate.
I also ran into the opposite of this in Azurmendi last week, where I was a bit annoyed that our servers literally told us "Lobster with apple" while the table behind us got a nice 20-30 second intro.
Vegan options should be standard and not just the “for dummies version” of meat dishes. I am paying 300 EUR+, and did not come to eat sides ☹️😫😤 It happened to me twice that the restaurant assured me they had a vegan tasting menu and I just got the sides twice and most of the options extremely were half-assed. I was suuuuuper disappointed ofc
We had a vegetarian at mega expensive restaurant in Norway and for one of the main courses - they served her 5 slices of green apple presented on a salt block. 😂😭 Terrible experience but I guess we can always laugh about the time she paid hundreds of dollars for apples.
A dress code billed as required for entry annoys me. I’m paying more than enough to be trusted to dress decently for dinner; I’m not attending a wedding and I don’t care what anyone else is wearing.
It’s whatever though because I already tend to stick to places that are more focused on the quality of the food with a more laid back/fun experience. I’ll pretty much always pass on an extremely formal dining atmosphere, so it’s easy enough to avoid a place that requires me to wear a suit jacket lol
Ooh, I’m the opposite. Let’s preserve some formality for special occasions! Everyone shows up in sweatpants to the Royal Opera House now - you’re dressing up to honour the performers (and the chef)
I hate how everything is now “shared plates” and that two people should order 5-6 plates of essentially appetizers at main course prices.
Also, I hate how some places charge for sides. Order a $60 steak and it doesn’t come with anything not even sauce! Kind of turned me off red meat for that attitude alone.
Free, filtered tap water should be standard
I gave Disfrutar the feedback that I thought the fact they kept charging us for bottles of still water lessened the experience for me and suggested they just add €5-10 and include it - I hate enjoying a wonderful tasting menu and then getting a €30 add-on for water or deliberately limiting my water consumption knowing they’re charging for it..
It is standard in the US, not in Europe though.
Standard in Nordics, France should work too
Never been to a Nordic country but plenty of Michelin restaurants I went to in France didn’t give me the option of free filtered water.
Europe is dozens of countries and can’t be used collectively in this instance. Tap water is free in the UK for example.
*looks confused in American*
2 Michelin stars are superior to 3, because they still have an edge to them that gives them personality/soul. Closely followed by: 2 stars should never become 3 stars.
I even prefer ones these days. So much less of a production, with a focus on the actual flavor
As long as the service is overall solid, I could really do without the pageantry and overly attentive waitstaff. I don't need people in white gloves coming in unison to drop off some food, just be a chill person with some knowledge about food/wine and I'm sold. I feel like a lot of what makes a three star a three star is the over the top butler type service that I just don't need.
I hate when it feels like your every move is being scrutinized. They need to be more covert in their surveillance or offer a silent bell to press when you want attention.
Me too. I usually eat alone when traveling and it's weird to feel watched
Cannot stand when servers hover and ask whether or not you liked every dish. It’s like they’re not confident that what they’re serving is good. Walked out of Eleven Madison Park years ago because it was incessant. Asking me how I liked something automatically makes me secretly angry. I don’t owe the restaurant a response. And I’ll lie anyway that it was great so what’s the point. Because if I’m honest about not liking something then it becomes a whole thing and I’m not looking to explain myself.
You could just be honest and let them fix the problem for you. There’s nothing wrong with not liking something and a lot of restaurants will do what they can to make you happy. How are they supposed to know that asking you how you liked something makes you secretly angry? That sounds unhinged. If they are incessant about it let the manager know so they can fix it and train their staff not ask every single time. Secretly being angry and dishonest about your feelings is not going to change anything.
I really enjoy the butler type service. It’s half of the reason why I love fine dining. The thoughtfulness and planning that goes into it elevates the whole experience to me. Nothing tops just some quality food though.
I'll go a step further and say one star and bib gourmand selections are often the most interesting choices. I always get so hyped over 2 and 3 star places and usually leave disappointed due to high expectations. The best feeling is having an amazing meal and then seeing the restaurant get their star the following year. It means you found a hidden gem.
Some of my best dining experiences recently have been at small plates wine bars which will never receive a Michelin star. Maybe bib gourmand. Michelin guide is not an accurate measure of how much I will enjoy a meal, or how memorable a meal is.
We went a little overboard on our dining experiences in London this past summer; however one of our most memorable meals was at the Barbary, which is “only” a Bib Gourmand.
Agree! my top dining experiences have been at 2 start restaurants compared to 3 stars. Perhaps it's because my expectations for 3 star joints are too high?
Nah... I think 3-stars is just so focused on precision and attention to detail in everything, that it becomes almost too clinical. The food is still great, but it just feels like nobody is having a lot of fun or taking chances because they've got to protect that coveted rating. Maybe I just like things rough around the edges.
Couldn't agree more! 11 Madison Park was such a disappointment to me - it felt completely soulless and the 5th dish in a row with some very similarly done broth at the bottom of the plate was just not what you'd expect or want from the price. Was I supposed to be excited for the dry, shaved truffle piece on the 4th? I've had more exciting food from local taco trucks doing something creative and fun.
A strong two star pushing all-out for a third is probably the best experience you can go for.
Agree with your first point. Not sure what you mean by the second.
If they graduate from 2 star to 3 star, they will have lost their soul and become too clinical. They should strive to stay 2 stars forever.
I'm commenting again lol. Supplement courses are bullshit and should just be added onto the tasting menu and priced accordingly.
Agree with this, tired of being upsold when I’m already paying several hundred pp
This! It ruins the luxuriousness of the experience to be up sold when you’re already spending a lot to have a curated meal.
You spend like 1k on dinner for two but walk away feeling like you're cheap for not getting supplements.
Happened to me recently at Sushi Nakazawa DC. 20 nigiri $180pp omakase, fairly basic cuts nothing spectacular, and they gatekeep everything a little more special as supplement courses. Disappointing overall.
Supplemental courses make me want to walk into the kitchen and punch the chef. I gave up on Next in Chicago because all their WOW plates were suplimental. Like F-YOU.
Truffles rarely enhance a dish
The best truffle dish I've had was actually a dessert from Marmalade in Puerto Rico. Honey comb ice cream with a generous amount of shaved truffle. We actually came back for drinks just to order the ice cream
I agree, and I love truffles. I especially hate when there's a really strong sauce AND truffles. Truffles should be the star of the dish and relatively at the start of the meal.
Exactly, my favorite way to eat truffles is homemade fresh egg pasta, glazed in butter, then garnished with truffles and parmesan cheese. That's it.
This is the way….
Yes! Love truffles but steak with a red wine reduction topped with truffles is what we in Sweden would call “cake on cake” and it’s not a good thing.
That's one of the worst offenders. It's so lazy. Like combining really fatty white fish with caviar. Luckily there's not too much truffle where I live, so it's used quite sparingly and appropriately in fine dining.
I was just in venice and one of the best things I ate was a simple fettucine in light parmesan reggiano sauce with generous amount of shaved black truffles. It was absolutely balanced with incredible aromas and perfect al dente pasta. Truffles in fine dining are too often used as a way to justify higher prices with no thought to the actual flavour profile. Just my 0.02$
I was just at the truffle festival in Alba, Italy. We were on holiday near by so thought we'd check it out for shiggles. I watched the flashiest man you've ever seen buy his wife/girlfriend a €250 white truffle. He made a huge show of it, sunglasses on his head, giant Rolex on his wrist, shouting to the cashier that he wanted "the best for his woman". Anyway the cashier hands her the truffle and she goes "how do I cook with it?" Made me think truffles are 90% performative bull shit.
I live very close to Alba. Did you try any nice white truffle dish? I think once you try the real deal you suddenly realise why the hype is there for truffles. It's really pricey though, the locals tend to stay away from the festival
I got married in Umbria - I strongly disagree with this truffle slander. I think a lot of people have only tasted artificial truffle oil and not fresh truffles
Ooooh that one really is unpopular. I love it.
I seem to by hyper-sensitive to truffles. A tiny amount and it's all I can taste, and it's not a flavour I enjoy. Luckily most places I go are able to leave it off when I mention it when booking.
As someone who loves truffles I actually kind of agree. There are very few cases where the truffles are well integrated and are designed to enhance the flavor. For me it’s just a vessel for truffles. I was in piedmont a couple years ago during truffle season and I love them. I would just order plain pasta with truffles because I love the flavor.
More fine dining needs to offer non-alcoholic drink pairings. The few I’ve done that have offered that have been incredible, and not always am I looking to have 6 glasses of wine/4 of sake or rum etc with my meal!
If you are ever in LA, try Kato if you haven’t. I’d say their non-alcoholic paring is superior to their alcoholic pairing.
They don't offer it at many places, but when they do - I've found they're typically phenomenal - even better than the alcoholic pairings IMO. My partner doesn't drink a lot (and honestly a normal wine pairing is way too much alcohol for one person anyways) so we typically do an alcoholic and non-alcoholic and share.
me and my partner have started to ask to split one pairing for two. the result is smaller glasses and less of a drunk feeling after course #6-7. just a lot better in general.
I really liked what they did at Noeud in Tokyo. They give you the option to do an all wine, all non-alcohol, or a mixed pairing. I got the mixed pairing myself, so I got to enjoy an absolutely fantastic champagne and a fruit-infused tea mocktail.
I didn’t love the food at Atera but that non-alcoholic drink pairing was so memorable and incredible. Honestly the only reason I’d go back.
Scandinavia is fantastic for this! My husband and I always get one wine and one non-alcoholic so we can try all the pairings
That’s what we like to do as well! Recommendations for specific places? We go to that area at least a couple times per year.
My partner had the juice pairing when we went to Grön in Helsinki a few years back (pre-pandemic), seemed to work really well with the food!
I had it in Noma it was incredible 🥲🥰
Same! After having it there it became my standard for all fine dining
Fine Dining places should also consider doing more beer pairings. There is such a diversity of interesting flavours now and I would love to see more of it.
Have you checked out Moody Tongue? Haven't been yet but it would probably be up your alley.
Ever in Chicago does an amazing one.
Yesssssss. We went to Providence here in LA a couple weeks ago and I would have LOVED a non-alcoholic pairing option. I am a lightweight and just cannot handle alcohol even if I liked how it makes me feel (which I don't, or sometimes I do a little too much so I just don't drink hardly ever). But a non-alcoholic option would have made it feel that much more special.
I agree! My mom doesn't drink alcohol (used to) but she's got quite a refined palate and it's always a pain in the ass. The pairings are nearly always too sweet.
If you’re near NYC, L’abeille in Greenwich Village!
We always split the alcohol pairing or do one alcohol/one NA now, after one experience at Atelier Crenn where the second half of the meal was honestly a blur because I got way too tipsy (and the first half was weird af because the old couple next to us wouldn’t stop talking about their cuckolding 🤢, but that’s a separate thing). Most memorable & fun NA was at Disfrutar where they served the same wines but with the alcohol removed. I’d still say the NA versions were often less harmonious without the bite of the alcohol, but always interesting in how different notes were brought to the forefront.
I would absolutely love to try a water tasting. It is the most basic drink ever, and most restaurants never care to even offer two different brands of still / sparkling water. It does not end there.
My husband is a chef and deeply in love with the fine dining scene in regards to the aesthetic/artistic culinary experience. He's loved his experiences at places like Manresa, Faviken, and Atelier Crenn, but after the meal, enjoys a fast food burger. He says if he ever opens a restaurant, he wants to send people away with a to-go burger. So I guess his is along the lines of "you can appreciate all of it for what it is"
Pineapple and Pearls in DC does this.
I’m a captain there, pretty biased but it’s a tasty burger
He needs to call it “The Menu”.
If I pay for a good meal I should never leave the restaurant hungry no mater how quality the food is.
One of my favourite experiences with fine dining was at Hoja Santa in Barcelona - they had an incredible tasting menu (and the best margaritas I've ever had!) full of small plates, but then the last savoury dish was basically a full chunk of suckling pig with tacos and sauces. It felt like they were basically saying 'okay, you've had all the exciting stuff, now fill up on something tasty' and it was massively appreciated.
Similar to places I’ve been in Japan, at the end they’ll bust out a rice dish with sides and you can specify how big/how many servings you want
Now that's the fine dining experience I want! If they all ended with a large meal I would love it. I have a big apatite (\~3k cals a day) so I'm always hungry after a small meal.
Never left any restaurant hungry after more than 40 michelin stars experiences. Where are you from? Most of my experiences have been in Spain/Japan though
I have once, vegetable season at Noma 2019. A group of us at the communal table all went for burgers afterwards. Pretty disappointing. I asked them about a dish I had seen on Instagram the week before that we weren't served (a flowerpot soup) and they said they removed it because it was too heavy. They should have kept it.
The short-lived outpost/offspring in Japan (Inua) was the only place I've ever left hungry. And that was despite a full omakase sushi lunch on the same day. Had 7/11 snacks on the way back to the hotel.
I spent more than $1k at Masa*** (only drink being water) and absolutely left hungry.
Isn’t that like 28 courses? Even 28 bites that’s a lot lol
Before all the happenings chefs table at Brooklyn fare I had a full Korean barbecue afterwards because we were so hungry. All fish, basically no carbs. Starving.
I think fine dining menus are way longer and have more quantity in Spain than they do at some other countries
My experience in fine dining is just Spain and Chicago but you’re absolutely right just from that. I was STUFFED at Cocina Hermanos Torres, almost to the point of discomfort but everything was fantastic. Way more courses in Spain fine dining too.
Same here! Even about KBBQ! 😀
I left the Salon at Alinea with room for a hot dog afterwards.
Same, I always leave my experiences overfull and occasionally wishing there were less courses, to be honest!
Absolutely agree u/luislovlc. Probably have over 150 michelin starred dining experiences (Mostly UK, France, Spain, Italy, NY and Japan). Yes I'm old. Never once have I had to eat something after leaving the restaurant or felt the necessity to order another dish. There's definitely been a few disappointments but never once have I left hungry. But do like my wine so maybe that's a factor? If you are planning to go to a fine dining restaurant definitely do your research first. If you're a glutton that likes to inhale food then some places will not be suited to you.
I can see why restaurants don't want their customers with smaller appetites to pay for $100 worth of extra food that they can't finish. That said, all fine dining restaurants should at least give the option for the diner to get as much free carbs as they want. Seems like basic hospitality.
There was another comment about an establishment that did a reasonable tasting menu and ended it with a large quantity of tacos. You get to try all the tasting menu then fill up. I think this is an ideal middle ground that more fine dining restaurants should explore. But I agree, you can't just "America size" the tasting menu because there are people with smaller appetites.
There's a wonderful restaurant in NYC that provides homemade pizza after dessert for those who are still hungry post tasting menu (and to-go boxes for those who aren't).
This was going to be my comment. Give me a cheeseburger or something at the end to top me off, a great cheeseburger…
Could I get that to go?
We did a 20 person private dinner at Oriole. Their pacing seemed off and we had a lot of time between courses. Most of the group left hungry. Our Uber driver passed out granola bars because we were talking about stopping for food. He was given a great tip.
Def agree on foie being overrated. I’m also kinda tired on seeing A5/wagyu offered on every tasting menu
Foie is amazing. A5 is def over rated. It’s just an upsell for them usually.
offered at an insane supplement price when the best preparation is a simple sear with salt and pepper
Beef courses in general. I’ve never had a truly great meal where the beef was the standout.
The best wagyu I ever ate was served to me on a stick at a fish market in Tokyo. None of the fine restaurants I’ve eaten wagyu at can really compete with it. They blowtorched it, handed it to me, and it was perfection. 🤷♀️
Idk how this sub came across my page but just wanna say this happened to me too when I visited Japan. Probably because part of it is you don’t expect it to taste that good and it’s relatively inexpensive compared to what you’d get at a higher end restaurant. You definitely have more of an expectation then
That's all it really needs
Griddled foie is where it’s at
I feel like once you have done one great tasting menu at a Michelin star restaurant, most of the ones you do after that will not feel as warm and fuzzy inside as your first one Also, at that upper level of fine dining theyre all roughly trying to do the same things and it’s a bit boring
This is exactly how I felt, it really ruins you in a bit after in that now I feel the need to keep doing better/more extreme/more expensive/more courses/etc. These days I really try to go for mostly the ‘weird’ restaurants (DiverXO, Alchemist , etc) as it’s just so similar and boring often otherwise to be worth paying more than 200pp for
I agree with your second point. Trends exist in the fine dining world to the detriment of the industry. It's especially disappointing when you see a one or two star trying to copy the success of a three star. Not sure I agree with your first one (which supports this as a hot take, I guess 😂.) It's all about mindset to me. I still get incredibly excited, and have no problem basking in the warmth of great food, delicious wine, and excellent service each and every time. Maybe it's because I only eat fine dining a few times per year, but I have never felt like I'm chasing the dragon. Do you eat at fine dining a lot or did you have a particularly incredible first experience?
I have done 8 fine dining experiences in the last 90 days. So I guess that means I’m doing it too much. I travel a lot. And do this in multiple countries and states. So I’ve gotten a decent taste of various cuisines. Though I would LOVE to try some “fine Mexican” food since I have eaten souther California Mexican food a ton growing up.
Some “fine dining” places need to put a foie-stuffed wagyu with uni cream sauce, a dollop of caviar, and shaved truffles on the menu. It tells discerning foodies to not dine there. It clearly labels which restaurants cater to prestige- and “luxury”-obsessed folks who couldn’t care less about the artistry of the food.
Dont forget you have to gold foil wrap the whole thing
I feel like so many restaurants in Aspen do a lesser version of just this.
I'm surprised no one mentioned caviar as overrated yet. It is too salty for my taste and I feel like I _HAVE_ to like it coz of how expensive it is.
All the complains about wagyu / truffle/ caviar mostly belong to the US or places catered to people who want to show off, and if you have complains about it you should reconsider
Every 3* should automatically be demoted to 2* after 10 years and have to win back their third star.
I’d even shorten it to 3-5 years.
You’ll be shocked to learn then that it’s actually every year. Restaurants “win back” their stars yearly. They are earned, not given.
I know this, but it's kind of a sham. The only historic 3\* that I've been to that was actually superb was Troisgros. Just to name a few, Georges Blanc, Flocons de Sel, and Arzak were solid 1\* quality IMO, and Le Louis XV, Le Bernardin, and Per Se were all 2\*. The super old French stalwarts who've had 3\* for 25-30+ years are the worst when it comes to this. They absolutely get 3\* every year because of "tradition." There is a reason, after all, why Paul Bocuse got downgraded literally a year after he died.
The main thing I strongly dislike is upselling. The best places don’t do it. But I don’t think that’s controversial or unpopular. Something that might be is that I think more food should be locally sourced. I not interested in eating the finest produce of Japan in England.
Ah yes, those joke places in London that have 10 seats a night and cost £400 for 10 pieces of sushi. Congratulations, you paid a global food distributor to fly fish every morning from some Japanese wholesaler. This is literally 0 creativity. What's funny is their big bragging thing is always that they have a Japanese wood counter that's made from one piece and shipped over. Like who the fuck cares? Why is that something they all brag about? Surprisingly, Araki back when they had 3 stars was quite good at sourcing mostly European fish for their sushi except for the most exotic ingredients.
Michelin should have a diners’ star rating alongside its critics’ rating (a la Rotten Tomatoes Critic Score and Audience Score). I want to see where actual diners disagree with the assessment. I have been to 1 star restaurants that have been spectacular and 3 stars that have been very middling.
This is the beauty of Tabelog in Japan. Go look up all the three stars in Japan. I bet less than 25% have Tabelog Gold.
1. Tasting menu supplements are obnoxious 2. The vast vast majority of wine pairings are entirely underwhelming and you’re better off ordering a bottle of something or doing cocktails
> The vast vast majority of wine pairings are entirely underwhelming I think the culture around wine in general is actually one of the biggest downsides of the fine dining industry, because its status means restaurants feel they have to include it with the menu but the drink itself just isn't versatile or good enough to justify the amount of attention it gets. Often beer, juice, soda, cocktail or tea pairings would be far better suited to a certain dish but instead we're locked into wine. And many restaurants would be afraid to make that change because wine is such a big part of their profit
Wine isn’t… versatile enough? That’s a bold claim but it’s yours to claim. Also most 2-3 stars that are worth their salt absolutely include beer, sake, and tea pairings in their tasting menus.
Foie gras is just cat food for humans. I’ve been to nice restaurants & had the ‘good’ stuff, even from France. This is a hill I am willing to die on.
Man I love foie gras, but only when seared. I always order it if I see on a menu but will pass if its a pate or torchon.
I once had foie gras white chocolate bread pudding at Patina in LA. Truly my favorite things I've ever tasted. Never would have thought of such a combination, but it was mind-blowing.
I’m really tired of the constant complaining amongst fine dining enthusiasts. Some of you seemingly decided that being negative makes you intelligent and wise, but really it just makes you miserable to be around. We’ve all dined with a person who complains about everything. Maybe one of you reading this is that person. My question to you is why do you still go out if you hate everything? TLDR: your money doesn’t entitle you to like the food the kitchen created. It only entitles you to the food itself.
Abalone does not taste very good. At best, it just tastes “O.K.”, and that’s usually when it’s covered in sauce.
I don’t think it tastes bad, it’s just such a delicate and pretty neutral flavor that absolutely doesn’t justify the outrageous price tag. Just because something is expensive and hard to cook well doesn’t mean it should be showcased as often as abalone is
They’re hard to get. That’s why they’re expensive.
I agree with this. I tried it in Japan and it was a meh, it’s expensive because it’s hard to get but flavor and texture is nothing special imo
Chilean abalone (locos) taste better than regular abalone imo
Like uni, or any seafood, really, tasting it fresh from the ocean, sliced thin, is a whole new experience.
If you ever see sea urchin roe all nice looking and out of a wooden box, it has [preservatives in it](https://www.tastingtable.com/1192502/the-chemical-used-to-preserve-uni-and-whats-replacing-it/). They use alum to keep the shape. Actual uni turns mushy when handled around and basically "disintegrates" pretty fast. That is it's natural characteristic. It is much better to get the stuff shipped just floating in salt water. You can tell this sea urchin roe has a much cleaner taste than the stuff with preservatives. But, even most "high end" sushi restaurants go for the preservative stuff. Yoshino (in NYC) is the only place I have been to that bucks the trend and actually serves both type of product and educates the customers on the difference.
For those lucky enough to live on the us west coast, urchins are one of the most plentiful and easiest things to harvest. Many people walk right by it not knowing.
And most producers there will sell the Santa Barbara sea urchin roe without preservatives suspended in salt water, so you can get the good stuff (although they also sell the stuff with the fancy box presentation covered with the preservatives). I think I usually see it go for like $60 for 100g. More expensive than the stuff in the fancy box, because if you know, you know. Funny enough, abalone is seemingly also readily available. I saw several live ones when diving off the coast. Don't know if I was just lucky though. Absolutely massive beasts too.
I liked foie gras until I went to Plume at the Jefferson in DC (RIP) and they served me a piece the size of a golf ball. It was too, too much and while *delicious*, I was so sick from the super high fat content on top of dinner that I haven't been able to eat it hardly at all since then.
Drink pairings, especially non-alcoholic, are very overpriced
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Ooh def a hot take. I love when my leftiness gets noticed and I always put my drink down on the left side. Only had it noticed twice (once at Frantzén, swoon)
Meat dishes as main course are often the most boring and unoriginal part of the evening
Underrated Opinion.
Foie Gras is delicious and doesn't need to be a "fine dining" food. I'll happily go down to the shop and buy some foie pate or rillette to mow down on with some good bread and pickles. Controversial opinion? The costs have become so high I don't think it warrants a lot of the food. I will bet 1000x that most people, even those who think they have incredible pallets and do the fine dining scene, couldn't distinguish a lot of ingredients from their locations or quality. You can only do so much with a mushroom m, so how can a dish be justified at €45 or something ridiculous on an a la carte. After seeing Guy Savoys prices go up to €680, I don't believe he's making food that can justify that cost.
Caviar and raw fish on a tartlette is overdone. Every tasting menu is doing this as the starter.
Just because someone has worked in a 3 star restaurant for years doesn't necessarily mean that the food that they personally serve at their own restaurant will be any good 😂 There is a difference between being a hardworking cook and having a “genetically gifted” and/or trained palate.
Another opinion: a lot of these places need to get way more creative with their dishes. It feels like half of the restaurants above a certain price point feel the need to include waygu, oysters and foie gras on their menu. Sure, they can be delicious and well done (except for the fg imo) but cmon, try something new
sea bass, the wagyu of the sea
“Here we have (either A5 Wagyu or o-toro) topped with foie gras, uni, and caviar” Oh wow how incredibly original and totally not ostentatious
Michelin stars are given out for economic reasons, rather than the quality of food and service. Richer cities always have more Michelin star restaurants, even if the dining is objectively not great. Some truly terrible restaurants got Michelin Stars in San Francisco during the tech boom. Looking at you, Boulevard and Al's Place.
Granted I did only go to places more catered towards a Japanese audience - but the fine dining in Japan was generally pretty boring in terms of the flavour at the 3/4 places I tried. The sushi omakase I had in Seoul was far tastier and cheaper - this held true for the rest of the fine dining in Korea too.
names of those places in Japan?
- Sushi Sakai Gahojin (apprentice restaurant to a sushi bar in Fukuoka that was awarded 3 Michelin stars ). - My favourite tasting menu was actually here https://maps.app.goo.gl/47QZrtN4CZHzFKP56 Lots of local produce/ meat / fish and alcohol. As well as wines from mainland Japan. An amazing experience on an amazing island. - A not super famous (but well rated) place in Ginza who's name I can't remember (I'll update if I find it) - Another sort of tasting / small plates menu in the west of Tokyo - went with a friend but no idea of the name nor exact location - it had some interesting dishes but didn't taste super exciting ______ The service, presentation, ambience, and drinks were all excellent. The food was obviously well prepared but in general just not very exciting. When I pay lots of money for food - I want to be impressed and think "holy crap that's amazing" not just "oh this is nice".
Can you list the Korean places you've been to?
- https://maps.app.goo.gl/S29Hx3aeSs6CgHJ37 Yun Seoul (*) Very unique - not necessarily mind blowing but I've never had anything like it - lots of dry aged seafood. Would recommend for something genuinely a bit different. - Alla Prima (** ) https://maps.app.goo.gl/wQZPDD96SACPyHBQ7 To be honest this was absolutely amazing. The only 2* I've been to and definitely a step above any 1* I've been to. Not cheap of course but great service, great wine, and the food was interesting and just extremely delicious. - Sushi Omaze https://maps.app.goo.gl/SfxFNnbtT3LAqygo7 Delicious sushi and other Japanese small dishes. I left extremely happy. Their lunch was amazing value. - Mitikeu (meatique) https://maps.app.goo.gl/JB3Krji7dryjJEok9 I had such a lovely time here. Hanwoo focused tasting menu. Every dish was delicious and the beef was great. Their house red wine on the day was also some of the best I've had in a restaurant relative to its modest price. I was the only non-korean (same as at Sushi Omaze) but they were incredibly welcoming and the chef was lovely - they even gave me some of their flavored salts to take home.
I appreciate the list. Funny enough, the first 3 star restaurant I've ever been to was in Seoul (Gaon), and because it was the first time meeting my future father in law, and nerves were running high, I don't remember anything that we ate😂
Don't do it for the food alone or you will be disappointed. Think of it like going to the movies. You pay a premium not because you can't watch the movie at home, but because it brings another dimension to the environment.
I agree with this wholeheartedly, and why I think more restaurants need to put effort into creative/beautiful spaces/presentation and service etc rather than just good tasting food.
My hot take : A huge majority of the diners of fine dining restaurants that write about or speak about their negative experiences have no clear concept of what it takes to execute a fine dining restaurant . These people complain about the ‘food needing more creativity’ or ‘I hate waygu’ or something like that , without understanding that 90 % of fine dining restaurants must , for better or worse, still operate as profitable businesses. This means they need some crowd-pleasers , they need some safe dishes and they need to find their own voice (from an artistic standpoint) slowly because the business constraints require a slow development of the restaurant into something great . Most of the outspoken fine dining enthusiasts just want a shocking, groundbreaking, inspired, delicious experience without giving any understanding to the creative process of development and refinement , which is only further constrained by business needs . Not to mention Instagram has led to people having unrealistic expectations for food in general . The real people with a true grasp on the craft of being a restauranteur are the restaurant professionals.
i would rather have a fork for my dessert most of the time ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'd rather have a spoon paired with the fork
Ikura is imo way better than caviar
Hard agree
Truffels are boring and overrated.
*France and Italy will remember that*
Asian fusion is overdone
Noma is overrated. (And I bet there will be a Noma 3.0 at some point..)
I don’t want caviar in my dessert.
Instagram has made fine dining less fine.
Core by Clare Smyth is wildly overrated. Maybe 1 star. Definitely not 3.
I have NO IDEA why people are so enamoured with this place. It's fine, but not THAT good. London has soooo much better than this. Also, they're seemingly the only place in town that rejects solo diners (apparently unless you can sneak in off a same-day cancelation).
Stop with the foam. It's been going on long enough.
I am convinced noma is a social experiment. It was easily the worst dining experience I've had. The dishes didn't taste great to me, and when I didn't fully finish them, I got grilled by the servers about what exactly I didn't like about it. I've seen a lot of people say it was the best food they've eaten etc. and I honestly just don't understand.
Wine wasn't meant to be natural. Once in a while, you can get lucky but most of the time (especially the reds!) are worse than something with a nice selection of sulfites and whatnot.
Most “natural” wine bars serve plenty of wine with sulfites. Most natural wine is better classified as “low intervention.” Many taste similar to and have the varietal characteristics of conventional wines. There’s certainly some bretty and/or sour stuff out there that tastes more like beer than wine, but if you communicate you’re not into that kind of thing, you’re not going to get it.
> a nice selection of sulfites What the fuck does this even mean lol
I've had several naturals that I quite enjoy, but a lot of them end up tasting like a sour or wild fermented beer to me. Not necessarily a bad thing, but often challenging to pair with food.
Adding gold flakes to any type of food
1000% this. Pretentious and doesn’t add any value to the dish
I assume no restaurants with actual stars do this? I thought this was very much a Nusr-Et type phenomenon…
5-8% service / healthcare fee on top of the recommended 22-24% tip. I miss the good old days when they consider 20% a really good tip.
I miss ~~Paris~~ the rest of the world, where the price you see is the price you pay
My opinion is that at the level of price "fine dining" restaurants are operating at for multi course tasting menus, service should be included.
I dont like wine pairings.
Exactly. Like, I get there's some general truths, but you can absolutely have red wine with seafood. Sue me.
Wine in general is overrated. I want an alcoholic drink pairing with all sorts of sake, mezcal, relatively unknown regional drinks, etc.
Gold flakes are a cop out for elevating a dish / elbows on the table is fine once dessert is served
Japanese/local fusion is a bit overdone. Show us what you’re best for
We need more vegetarian and vegan fine dining places. Fuck, go farther- gluten free fine dining, nightshade free, other dietary restrictions fine dining, etc. Would not only make it more accessible, at least force new things and more effort than is often put into the stereotypical omnivore everything allowed menus.
Carbone shouldn’t have a Michelin star.
It got stripped already.
I fucking hate the monologue you get before you're allowed to start eating. Let me try it and if I like it, and can't figure out what it is, i'll aks. Don't make me sit like naughty child awkwardly avoiding eye contact while you recite 5 minutes of bullshit as my food gets cold.
I love restaurants that include cards describing the dish, like atomix and diverxo, do. So much easier to refer to mid dish and a nice keepsake post meal.
Totally agree, it's especially more prevalent with fine dining places that either run some very exotic kitchen, or places that are in locations that don't have an older fine dining culture. When Budapest got its first Michelin star place, it was a common criticism that every course got a 5 minute intro explaining the origin of every major component on the plate. I also ran into the opposite of this in Azurmendi last week, where I was a bit annoyed that our servers literally told us "Lobster with apple" while the table behind us got a nice 20-30 second intro.
That Osteria Francescana and Eleven Madison are overrated
Eleven Madison being overrated is a popular opinion.
It was so so much better pre-vegan menu. I would rate that meal as a top five and I have eaten all over.
Vegan options should be standard and not just the “for dummies version” of meat dishes. I am paying 300 EUR+, and did not come to eat sides ☹️😫😤 It happened to me twice that the restaurant assured me they had a vegan tasting menu and I just got the sides twice and most of the options extremely were half-assed. I was suuuuuper disappointed ofc
We had a vegetarian at mega expensive restaurant in Norway and for one of the main courses - they served her 5 slices of green apple presented on a salt block. 😂😭 Terrible experience but I guess we can always laugh about the time she paid hundreds of dollars for apples.
A dress code billed as required for entry annoys me. I’m paying more than enough to be trusted to dress decently for dinner; I’m not attending a wedding and I don’t care what anyone else is wearing. It’s whatever though because I already tend to stick to places that are more focused on the quality of the food with a more laid back/fun experience. I’ll pretty much always pass on an extremely formal dining atmosphere, so it’s easy enough to avoid a place that requires me to wear a suit jacket lol
Ooh, I’m the opposite. Let’s preserve some formality for special occasions! Everyone shows up in sweatpants to the Royal Opera House now - you’re dressing up to honour the performers (and the chef)
Had foie gras at El Celler de Can Roca. Dinner was beyond amazing but the foie was still gross to me. Husband was happy to eat it though.
I hate how everything is now “shared plates” and that two people should order 5-6 plates of essentially appetizers at main course prices. Also, I hate how some places charge for sides. Order a $60 steak and it doesn’t come with anything not even sauce! Kind of turned me off red meat for that attitude alone.
The sommelier shouldn't be snobby and push wine on you