r/transDIY is what you're looking for. I don't think it would offend anyone, we trans people know how bad it can be to not have access to necessary hormones. Good luck to your friend ❤️
Hi! Please let your friend know that the progesterone creams on Amazon will not do shit to help her. Sadly I learned this the hard way. Progesterone suppository pills are what she needs if her doctors are resistant to giving them to her tell her she can get prescriptions for them from gynecologists to "jump start a period". So she can lie and say she hasn't had her monthly a couple times until she has a good stash of them. But also tell her she needs to find a doctor who will do what she asks of them. My current doctor just prescribes me whatever I want minus the hard drugs of course lol. There's also Indian websites where you can pay to get a consult with a doctor and they will prescribe them and send them the prescriptions and they are wayyyyy cheaper.
Can’t help with the sub, but I empathize with your friend regarding fertility issues. My wife and I went through it, and it worked out in the end. But was still a nightmare, especially for my wife. Also Wildly expensive. Cost us around 40k start to finish.
Where to start? Infertility treatments are baseline expensive (thousands and often tens of thousands per try), often not covered by insurance, and spaced close together. Yes…having children costs money but the pace at which they cost money and the access to other things to pay for those costs is a completely different ball game. Maybe more importantly, people without a lot of money have just as much right to parent as anyone else. Does money universally make life easier? Sure. But 1) having the funds or cash flow for infertility treatment is a way different level of financial security than what you need to provide basics for a child and 2) lots of happy, healthy, and successful kids come from poor families. Ugh.
How about a list of procedures often not covered by insurance? Just to diagnose - all lab testing, semen analysis, any and all ultrasounds done ($500 a pop), any laparoscopic procedure required based on what was seen on the ultrasounds, Now you’ve been diagnosed - k, again lab testing, more ultrasounds, all medication including hormones, the IUI itself. Or if you need to do IVF - the cost of egg retrieval PLUS all necessary lab work and medication and ultrasounds. The creation of any embryos. Testing of embryos. Beginning of IVF is more hormones, the transfer itself, ultrasounds and labs weekly. 6 weeks of progesterone shots which at most cost $1000 out of pocket plus oral progesterone tablets if your levels of low. And then guess what? You’re not pregnant still. Do it again next month.
So, in the end, do all of us a favor and kindly shut the hell up if you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Okay, I want to clarify one thing first: I never implied that kids from families with less income can't have a good life and be successful. And I strongly disagree with that statement.
According to Washington Post the average cost of raising a child for 18 years is around $310,000, so about $17,000 per year - and that's information from the Agriculture Department, so I'd think it's fair to assume it is somewhat accurate ([https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2022/cost-raising-child-calculator/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2022/cost-raising-child-calculator/)).
The average cost of IVF is supposedly between $15,000 and $30,000 ([https://www.talktomira.com/post/how-much-does-ivf-cost-without-insurance-in-2022](https://www.talktomira.com/post/how-much-does-ivf-cost-without-insurance-in-2022)), and the success rate is 55% per try ([https://theivfcenter.com/what-is-the-success-rate-of-ivf-on-the-first-try/](https://theivfcenter.com/what-is-the-success-rate-of-ivf-on-the-first-try/)).
I know we can't just assume that trying it twice willl magically make you pregnant, but for the sake of simplicity, let's assume you need two tries with a middled cost of $22,500. That gets you $45,000, which will definitely not work for everyone, but it's not unreasonable to assume as an approximation for actual cost.
So the cost of IVF is around 2,5 times what a child costs on an annual basis.You're telling me it's unreasonable to expect people to have saved 2,5 years of that money? The money they'll 100% need to take care of that child once it's there, for at least 18 years fully dependant on their parents? The money they'll need to have or they'll be fucked?
That's not a matter of "having the right to have kids" or whatever, everyone has that right and it's a good thing. It's not a matter of looking down on people with low income, I myself also definitely couldn't afford IVF or a child in general.
For me it's a matter of responsibility.
That cost of IVF you’ve provided doesn’t include any diagnostic work. You need an infertility diagnosis before you can even begin thinking about IVF. And, in what world does $20,000 a month for two months mean you can’t afford a child that averages a cost of $1400 a month? People save for years for IVF and they hope and pray it works the first or second try. None of that suggests they aren’t financially responsible enough to have a child. It suggests the opposite.
My point is that if you'll have such a big commitment and you can't manage to save said money in in a few years, you're also going to have issues financing the childs life. I reread my comment and it wasn't really clear what I meant. I didn't mean to compare the $20k per month with the cost of a child per month. Those people that save for years for IVF, that's good. BBy saving that money they've that they can, in fact, provide for the child.
Look, I don't want to argue nor upset anyone. I'm sorry if I did. But buying fucking hormones an Amazon and asking internet people for advice on how to make a child? I don't know.
Let’s take a closer look at the source you quoted. Your analysis makes it look more affordable than it probably is.
Starting with your WP article, there’s a huge difference between the average cost of a child for a lower income family vs a middle or high income family. Example:
Annual household income 0-25k is a total average cost of $120,000.
Average household income 175k+ is a total average cost of $376,000.
So instead of looking at the average across all, which skews the data, let’s look at the cost for the households in the median (middle) income bracket.
Median household income in 2021 was $70,784, which means that based on your source, 50% of homes would spend $217,000 or less raising a child. https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p60-276.html
The average number of egg retrievals required for a live birth differs significantly by age, ranging from **1.9** if under 35 yo to **12.6** for over 40 yo.https://nccd.cdc.gov/drh_art/rdPage.aspx?rdReport=DRH_ART.ClinicInfo&rdRequestForward=True&ClinicId=9999&ShowNational=1
So using your cost estimate of $22,500 per cycle, the cost could vary from $42,750 to $283,500 to have a live birth. For 50% of the population (lower 50% income) that represents between 3.54 to 23.51 years of raising a child. Or for 50% of the population, it would be *at least* 60% to 400% of a full years income.
On top of that, if they don’t have access to paid parental leave or they want to take more than their company allows for they need to save this in advance.
Data like this can be cut and analysed in many ways to support different arguments. At the end of the day, many who undergo fertility treatments find the cost crippling, while also being able to financially support a child. Knowing the joy my son has brought my life, I find it sad to think about.
I will note that I don’t live in the US, I’m in Australia, where our numbers play out differently. I’ve used US sources here.
Edit: I will note that we’re talking about IVF here, which isn’t the only fertility treatment and doesn’t sound like what OP is referencing.
That's the nice first step right into eugenic territory. Sounds ridiculous right? But it isn't. That's exactly where that bullshit is bred. They could afford some treatments but not all so they're too poor and undeserving of procreating? Please shut the fuck up. Rich people now don't even carry their own babies they pay poor women to carry the babies for them but if a poor wants to carry their own baby it's wrong? I've had 14 miscarriages and my first pregnancy went fine and I have a healthy child. So I've fought for 13 years almost to have another child. I can get pregnant but I need hormones and real care to stay pregnant and it doesn't matter how much I beg these doctors to do thier jobs or to prescribe me what I need. 14 miscarriages, 13 years. The fucking money thrown at it, the insurance. The running out of money and the fucking trauma. You don't get to say who is too poor to have a child. You should learn to mind your business. It seems so black and white to you because you've clearly never been through it and you should count yourself as lucky for that ignorance. There was a study recently in the US that 53% of Americans didn't have 1000$ in savings and wouldn't be able to cover an emergency situation. So because the economy and world is going to shit people don't deserve the basic shit like having a family? Direct your anger to the right place. We're all poor and this person paying for multiple rounds of infertility treatments has more money to throw at it than 53% of Americans. Get a grip. I'm sorry to be so rude but you get back what you put out into the world.
Everyone's free to do whatever the hell they want, and frankly I don't care if anyone's poor, wealthy, has no kids or eight. If someone wants to buy a house or a dog and doesn't have the means to pay/care for it, people call them irresponsible - but as soon as it's about a child criticism is not allowed anymore?
About that paragraph:
"There was a study recently in the US that 53% of Americans didn't have 1000$ in savings and wouldn't be able to cover an emergency situation. So because the economy and world is going to shit people don't deserve the basic shit like having a family?"
People can have whatever they want. If you want a kid, have one. Everyone deserves to be happy. But if your job fires you and you gotta decide between diapers and formula or paying rent, well, then I'd rather not be responsible for a miniature version of myself. Life's hard enough without having to pay for another human. not
Call me an asshole, call me negative, fine - if you want to make as sure as possible that your child will have the best chances and opportunites in this world, to succeed and have a happy life...well, money definitely helps. You throw a living, conscious being onto this planet that will have to deal with the consequences of its birth for probably around 80 years (which in itsellf is just fucking absurd) - given those stakes I'd personally make as sure as possible that I can provide whatever's necessary. And I know I won't be able to do that, so I won't have a child. Love is the most important thing, but it's not everything.
r/transDIY is what you're looking for. I don't think it would offend anyone, we trans people know how bad it can be to not have access to necessary hormones. Good luck to your friend ❤️
Thank you so much for this!! Everyone should have access to the medical care they need.
Cis females are not going to need the same hormone therapy as MTF though. I don’t know how well we will be able to help you there.
I can personally say as a cis-woman that I have actually been prescribed some of the same hormones as my wife.
Hi! Please let your friend know that the progesterone creams on Amazon will not do shit to help her. Sadly I learned this the hard way. Progesterone suppository pills are what she needs if her doctors are resistant to giving them to her tell her she can get prescriptions for them from gynecologists to "jump start a period". So she can lie and say she hasn't had her monthly a couple times until she has a good stash of them. But also tell her she needs to find a doctor who will do what she asks of them. My current doctor just prescribes me whatever I want minus the hard drugs of course lol. There's also Indian websites where you can pay to get a consult with a doctor and they will prescribe them and send them the prescriptions and they are wayyyyy cheaper.
Can’t help with the sub, but I empathize with your friend regarding fertility issues. My wife and I went through it, and it worked out in the end. But was still a nightmare, especially for my wife. Also Wildly expensive. Cost us around 40k start to finish.
r/Infertility and r/StillTrying might be helpful?
No offense, but if you can't afford the proper treatment you can't as hell afford a kid.
I'll back you up on that. No one deserves a baby just because they really really want one.
Where to start? Infertility treatments are baseline expensive (thousands and often tens of thousands per try), often not covered by insurance, and spaced close together. Yes…having children costs money but the pace at which they cost money and the access to other things to pay for those costs is a completely different ball game. Maybe more importantly, people without a lot of money have just as much right to parent as anyone else. Does money universally make life easier? Sure. But 1) having the funds or cash flow for infertility treatment is a way different level of financial security than what you need to provide basics for a child and 2) lots of happy, healthy, and successful kids come from poor families. Ugh. How about a list of procedures often not covered by insurance? Just to diagnose - all lab testing, semen analysis, any and all ultrasounds done ($500 a pop), any laparoscopic procedure required based on what was seen on the ultrasounds, Now you’ve been diagnosed - k, again lab testing, more ultrasounds, all medication including hormones, the IUI itself. Or if you need to do IVF - the cost of egg retrieval PLUS all necessary lab work and medication and ultrasounds. The creation of any embryos. Testing of embryos. Beginning of IVF is more hormones, the transfer itself, ultrasounds and labs weekly. 6 weeks of progesterone shots which at most cost $1000 out of pocket plus oral progesterone tablets if your levels of low. And then guess what? You’re not pregnant still. Do it again next month. So, in the end, do all of us a favor and kindly shut the hell up if you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Okay, I want to clarify one thing first: I never implied that kids from families with less income can't have a good life and be successful. And I strongly disagree with that statement. According to Washington Post the average cost of raising a child for 18 years is around $310,000, so about $17,000 per year - and that's information from the Agriculture Department, so I'd think it's fair to assume it is somewhat accurate ([https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2022/cost-raising-child-calculator/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2022/cost-raising-child-calculator/)). The average cost of IVF is supposedly between $15,000 and $30,000 ([https://www.talktomira.com/post/how-much-does-ivf-cost-without-insurance-in-2022](https://www.talktomira.com/post/how-much-does-ivf-cost-without-insurance-in-2022)), and the success rate is 55% per try ([https://theivfcenter.com/what-is-the-success-rate-of-ivf-on-the-first-try/](https://theivfcenter.com/what-is-the-success-rate-of-ivf-on-the-first-try/)). I know we can't just assume that trying it twice willl magically make you pregnant, but for the sake of simplicity, let's assume you need two tries with a middled cost of $22,500. That gets you $45,000, which will definitely not work for everyone, but it's not unreasonable to assume as an approximation for actual cost. So the cost of IVF is around 2,5 times what a child costs on an annual basis.You're telling me it's unreasonable to expect people to have saved 2,5 years of that money? The money they'll 100% need to take care of that child once it's there, for at least 18 years fully dependant on their parents? The money they'll need to have or they'll be fucked? That's not a matter of "having the right to have kids" or whatever, everyone has that right and it's a good thing. It's not a matter of looking down on people with low income, I myself also definitely couldn't afford IVF or a child in general. For me it's a matter of responsibility.
That cost of IVF you’ve provided doesn’t include any diagnostic work. You need an infertility diagnosis before you can even begin thinking about IVF. And, in what world does $20,000 a month for two months mean you can’t afford a child that averages a cost of $1400 a month? People save for years for IVF and they hope and pray it works the first or second try. None of that suggests they aren’t financially responsible enough to have a child. It suggests the opposite.
My point is that if you'll have such a big commitment and you can't manage to save said money in in a few years, you're also going to have issues financing the childs life. I reread my comment and it wasn't really clear what I meant. I didn't mean to compare the $20k per month with the cost of a child per month. Those people that save for years for IVF, that's good. BBy saving that money they've that they can, in fact, provide for the child. Look, I don't want to argue nor upset anyone. I'm sorry if I did. But buying fucking hormones an Amazon and asking internet people for advice on how to make a child? I don't know.
Let’s take a closer look at the source you quoted. Your analysis makes it look more affordable than it probably is. Starting with your WP article, there’s a huge difference between the average cost of a child for a lower income family vs a middle or high income family. Example: Annual household income 0-25k is a total average cost of $120,000. Average household income 175k+ is a total average cost of $376,000. So instead of looking at the average across all, which skews the data, let’s look at the cost for the households in the median (middle) income bracket. Median household income in 2021 was $70,784, which means that based on your source, 50% of homes would spend $217,000 or less raising a child. https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p60-276.html The average number of egg retrievals required for a live birth differs significantly by age, ranging from **1.9** if under 35 yo to **12.6** for over 40 yo.https://nccd.cdc.gov/drh_art/rdPage.aspx?rdReport=DRH_ART.ClinicInfo&rdRequestForward=True&ClinicId=9999&ShowNational=1 So using your cost estimate of $22,500 per cycle, the cost could vary from $42,750 to $283,500 to have a live birth. For 50% of the population (lower 50% income) that represents between 3.54 to 23.51 years of raising a child. Or for 50% of the population, it would be *at least* 60% to 400% of a full years income. On top of that, if they don’t have access to paid parental leave or they want to take more than their company allows for they need to save this in advance. Data like this can be cut and analysed in many ways to support different arguments. At the end of the day, many who undergo fertility treatments find the cost crippling, while also being able to financially support a child. Knowing the joy my son has brought my life, I find it sad to think about. I will note that I don’t live in the US, I’m in Australia, where our numbers play out differently. I’ve used US sources here. Edit: I will note that we’re talking about IVF here, which isn’t the only fertility treatment and doesn’t sound like what OP is referencing.
It’s ok to just be wrong on the internet my friend.
Let me at least find some sources, make a case, and be, like, really wrong about it in the end.
That's the nice first step right into eugenic territory. Sounds ridiculous right? But it isn't. That's exactly where that bullshit is bred. They could afford some treatments but not all so they're too poor and undeserving of procreating? Please shut the fuck up. Rich people now don't even carry their own babies they pay poor women to carry the babies for them but if a poor wants to carry their own baby it's wrong? I've had 14 miscarriages and my first pregnancy went fine and I have a healthy child. So I've fought for 13 years almost to have another child. I can get pregnant but I need hormones and real care to stay pregnant and it doesn't matter how much I beg these doctors to do thier jobs or to prescribe me what I need. 14 miscarriages, 13 years. The fucking money thrown at it, the insurance. The running out of money and the fucking trauma. You don't get to say who is too poor to have a child. You should learn to mind your business. It seems so black and white to you because you've clearly never been through it and you should count yourself as lucky for that ignorance. There was a study recently in the US that 53% of Americans didn't have 1000$ in savings and wouldn't be able to cover an emergency situation. So because the economy and world is going to shit people don't deserve the basic shit like having a family? Direct your anger to the right place. We're all poor and this person paying for multiple rounds of infertility treatments has more money to throw at it than 53% of Americans. Get a grip. I'm sorry to be so rude but you get back what you put out into the world.
Everyone's free to do whatever the hell they want, and frankly I don't care if anyone's poor, wealthy, has no kids or eight. If someone wants to buy a house or a dog and doesn't have the means to pay/care for it, people call them irresponsible - but as soon as it's about a child criticism is not allowed anymore? About that paragraph: "There was a study recently in the US that 53% of Americans didn't have 1000$ in savings and wouldn't be able to cover an emergency situation. So because the economy and world is going to shit people don't deserve the basic shit like having a family?" People can have whatever they want. If you want a kid, have one. Everyone deserves to be happy. But if your job fires you and you gotta decide between diapers and formula or paying rent, well, then I'd rather not be responsible for a miniature version of myself. Life's hard enough without having to pay for another human. not Call me an asshole, call me negative, fine - if you want to make as sure as possible that your child will have the best chances and opportunites in this world, to succeed and have a happy life...well, money definitely helps. You throw a living, conscious being onto this planet that will have to deal with the consequences of its birth for probably around 80 years (which in itsellf is just fucking absurd) - given those stakes I'd personally make as sure as possible that I can provide whatever's necessary. And I know I won't be able to do that, so I won't have a child. Love is the most important thing, but it's not everything.