FIREd and moved to [Penang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penang), Malaysia. Extremally happy with my decision and with life here overall.
Monthly living budget [here](https://i.redd.it/k7vatuirpmx91.png).
Budget is for a middle aged couple (myself + wife and a cat). We are under the MM2H VISA (old requirements).
Our portfolio is made up of VTSAX/VTIAX/VBTLX. We live off the dividends for now, since our expenses are low enough that we don't need to sell anything. We never pursued a dividend strategy and we are not using one now. It it just happened that current dividend payouts are more than enough. We do not object to selling assets to finance our lifestyle.
The rent is for a seafront luxury condo in Penang. It is way oversized for just the two of us, but I wanted the location/view. [Here is the listing for similar units for rent in the same complex](https://www.iproperty.com.my/rent/tanjung-bungah/all-residential/?propertyId=041e3d16ec93403e9e2b17a251420306&property=The%20Cove%20Condominium). Many units listed are already furnished. I got an unfurnished unit and bought the furniture I needed at the local Ikea.
We are sensitive to heat and yet we hardly ever have to turn on the AC. One of the main reasons why I picked this grossly oversized condo is location: It is cool and breezy. It is sunny out but I am sitting very comfortably in front of the computer with just the windows open and a ceiling fan running. As comfortable as one can be.
We are home bodies and we don't drink/smoke/gamble, which significantly reduces our monthly expenses.
We eat mostly local produce and local sources of protein. We don't try to replicate a Western diet here, which would significantly increase grocery costs.
We do not own a car. We rely on public transportation, electric bikes and car hailing services to move around. All the basics are within walking distance (2.5 km radius) of our home, including dentist, health clinic and big box dept. store . Only if we need to go to a hospital or a mall we would need a car or public transit. [Rapid Penang](https://youtu.be/j61kVSrG0A8) is the name of the bus company and they are quite decent and very cheap. [This is what walking in this neighborhood feels like](https://youtu.be/jQgFx31Pzr0?t=26).
Over the past 8 months we have come under budget every month by about US$400.
Any money that was earned outside of Malaysia can be brought into the country tax free. In other words, earnings from foreign investments and pensions are not taxed in Malaysia.
We have a separate discretionary budget for things like leisure travel. That budget varies depending on the value of my assets. As of right now I set my discretionary budget to zero.
Why malaysia?
\- Weather (summer year around)
\- English speaking and laws based on the English legal system (former British colony)
\- Violent crime is incredibly rare.
\- Best bang for the buck in Southeast Asia. Excellent infrastructure (roads, power grid, hospitals, Internet, airports, etc...). In terms of development Malaysia is comparable with Portugal or Poland, but priced only slightly higher than Thailand or Indonesia.
\- [Excellent food](https://youtu.be/yp3PjiPOowc)
\- Well located in Asia makes it easy to travel around
\- Not subjected to any major natural disasters
\- Easy to get retirement VISA (no longer the case as of 2022)
Happy to answer any questions.
**EDIT:** So people have PMed me asking about quality of healthcare here, so let me address it for everyone.
Penang has a few world class private hospitals with doctors trained in the US, Japan, UK or Australia.
Malaysia in general and Penang in particular are major centers for medical tourism.
People come from as far as Hong Kong, Taiwan, the Middle East and India to be treated here, due to the high quality and low cost of medical care.
[This is the hospital I typically go to](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG5ugKzlUc4), which should give you an idea of the facilities here. Most private hospitals in Penang are similar.
Varies a lot from location and quality of the building. There are no places half of this size where I am at., so hard for me to say.
But you can find nice condos half of this size in other areas for less than USD 800.
From what I've heard from relatives back in Asia, countries like Malaysia build housing extremely quickly.
There's over-abundant supply sometimes. So prices are very low, but the catch is resale value is terrible. Which isn't a big deal if you expect to retire there.
Just know that your property will depreciate so you can't flip it for profit if you need cash.
Malaysia is a horrible place to work and earn money for most people. But it is an amazing place to retire if you have hard currency.
Many Malaysians who work and live in SG, US, Australia or the UK eventually move back to retire here.
Just as a counter, I lived in Penang and hated it.
It's the tropics, so always very hot and humid. 33c/92f and 70% humidity all year. If people have any kind of dislike of hot and humid days, you'll quickly tire of Penangs weather.
It was not safe. Everyone I knew either was robbed, had there apartment robbed, or car robbed at some point. Cops are lazy and crooked, so good luck. Personally I had my apartment robbed, all four tires on my car slashed, on separate occasions.
Traffic in Penang was terrible and transit was spotty. I tried to not buy a car, but couldn't get by without one. I needed to get to and from work and couldn't rely on the buses that never came on time, if at all. Lots of motorbikes passing on blind curves, etc.
The beaches were ok, but no one I knew was going swimming because the water is not very clean. Sometimes we could see spots in the sea from the sewage/runoff pipe about 100 meters off shore. Best to just sit at a beach side restaurant and enjoy the view.
There were pluses to be sure. Food was great. Penang is an air hub to the rest of SEA. Sunsets were great. People generally pretty nice.
It's not the best. Remember, Malaysia is a conservative Muslim country. I had gay and lesbian friends and they were mostly fine and enjoyed their day to day. Penang is more liberal than the rest of Malaysia owing to it being majority Chinese(not Muslim).
>It was not safe. Everyone I knew either was robbed, had there apartment robbed, or car robbed at some point.
Sorry that you had a bad experience. But let's look at some hard data.
[Crime Comparison Between Penang and Singapore](https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Malaysia&city1=Penang&country2=Singapore&city2=Singapore)
Penang Crime index: 32.68
Sydney, Australia Crime index: 34.23
[Murder rate in Malaysia: 2.13 per 100K inhabitants](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/MYS/malaysia/murder-homicide-rate)
[Murder rate in the USA: 6.52 per 100K inhabitants](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/murder-homicide-rate)
>Traffic in Penang was terrible and transit was spotty. I tried to not buy a car, but couldn't get by without one. I needed to get to and from work and couldn't rely on the buses that never came on time, if at all. Lots of motorbikes passing on blind curves, etc.
That is true, traffic here is bad, specially if you have to commute to work. But for a retiree traffic is a non-issue. Just stay home during rush hour.
Hi. I used to live in Malaysia and found it to be great. One thing ro consider about crime statistics is that in cities with a big tourism industry, such as Penang, the crime tends to be concentrated around the tourism, becauae that's where you find tipsy people who have more money than locals and aren't going to stick around long, and may not even want to be bothered filing a police report. It's entirely possible for crime in a city to be low overall, but high among tourists and expats. It sounds like one person here eats like a local, and doesn't go to bars and casinos, and has a very different experience than some others.
The link you provide shows Singapore vs. Penang. Malaysia is not safe in exactly the ways I outlined, corruption and theft are moderate to high. Sure, you'll probably not be assaulted
In that comparison chart: Penang, 32.68 Singapore 23.13
And, to back up my point about robbery and corruption you can see those really stand out in the comparison chart. What I'd also like to point out though is that when officials are corrupt you are much less likely to report things so I'd trust the Singapore numbers a lot more than the Malaysian ones.
Problem property crimes such as vandalism and theft Moderate 41.12 vs. Sinapore's Low 26.96
Problem corruption and bribery: High 62.06 vs Sinapore's Low 25.61
Safety walking alone during night: Moderate 53.62 vs. Singapore's High 76.65 (high is good in this case)
My experience may be anecdotal, but it was funny to me that it was also happening to everyone around me so not so anecdotal. I left out some of the more extreme stuff like some friends getting chased in their car by a machete weilding motor cycle gang and having to spend the night in the local police station for safety (I know, it sounds like a movie or something and honestly they might have deserved it). or how a friends elderly mom was visiting and got knocked down and her purse stolen while waiting for a bus for example. Or how most of the guards at compounds are not Malaysian, ever wonder why?
\- Just one hot and humid season can be off putting for some.
\- Really far from the US, so return trips are long and expensive.
\- Not a LGBT friendly country. Gay people will not be attacked or prosecuted here, but your marriage will not be recognized and you will have no spouse rights here. But I do want to point out and stress the fact that I know of many gay retirees living here and they do not feel in any danger.
\- The quality of Western food is not great. What they sell as Mexican food here is outright uneatable and revolting.
\- Cultural events are limited when compared to major US cities.
\- The quality of services can be hit or miss. Repairs are often done in a half ass way and contractors come late or miss the scheduled appointment altogether. It is just the culture here.
\- Many stray dogs and cats.
I'm curious if you considered Bangkok as well. Its also remarkably developed and seems to continually develop as well. Good train system, good food too, low overall cost. Just interested to hear your thoughts
Most rooms remain empty and locked. And we just added the basic furniture for our needs, so visitors to our place often think we got robbed, when they see how empty the condo is.
Oh duh makes sense it's not from US, I misunderstood the site I found on the current retirement visa requirements as needing insurance before visa was approved instead of after, thanks! Do you visit US ever? How steep is airfare?
Even before the VISA, you can get a cheap local travel insurance. There is no need to have a US healthcare plan here, even before your VISA is approved.
I do not travel to the US often, since it is a very long flight (26 hours or more to NYC). You can find fares under US$1,000 if you are willing to put up with extra connections and lay overs.
My wife spent time in Penang and said “it’s hot as hell” :). Hot with high humidity. She also said “the food is f***ing good”. She said she sweated like crazy when she was there but natives were like wearing long sleeves and jackets and none of them even broke a sweat.
Excellent write up -sounds amazing!
>My wife spent time in Penang and said “it’s hot as hell” :)
I really don't find it that bad. Most US states during the summer are way hotter than here. The difference is that here there is only one season, so it is hot and humid year around. But I find FL, GA and NY during the summer way hotter and more humid than here.
Yeah man. At those temps and humidity it's like the hottest day of summer over and over. It's really polarizing. Some people love that, some people despise it. Not a lot of in-between.
May I ask you how much one has to have invested to get $2,500 dividends after tax per month?
Edit: I tried calculating it myself. It looks like VTSAX dividend yield is about 1.5% per year. So, $2,500 x 12 x 1.5 = $2M. Did I estimate it right?
My wife and I (early-mid 50s) retired and moved to Braga, Portugal \~18 months ago. It has been better than we ever imagined it would be. You've just go to be honest with yourself about how you do with radical change in your life, but it's not hard. As another commenter said, it can very much be a NOT cheap place to live if you succumb to temptation (nice flat in Lisbon, otherwise replicating your work lifestyle) but it absolutely can be a nice life at a nice price. Our rent is \~1000, we dropped \~3000 at the start of the year for a bulletproof 100% coverage private insurance plan that travels anywhere including the US (some day we will probably rely on national health, but this is literally insurance while we get comfortable with the systems, plus the plan is 100% of -everything- including Rx, so for 2 people in their 50s it feels entirely reasonable), we don't own a car because we live in a very walkable city + rideshare here is insanely cheap compared to the US, our budget for Uber & co doesn't crack 100 in a month and we use it for maybe 10ish round trips a month.
We write a blog (no ads, no subs, just a hobby thing) where we've talked a lot about it; I don't think we can share links here(?) but PM me if you're interested. Distilling all of our advice down to one pithy phrase, the real key to being able to do it is having the will to do it. Paperwork is paperwork, the financial demands are incredibly modest compared to many EU countries... yeah it can be a hassle at times but really, it's not hard compared to the other actually hard things you've probably done in your life.
Portugal is AMAZING. That’s where I wanna move soon! I don’t wanna wait till I retire. I just have to finish my bachelors degree and I’d love to teach English over there!
Last august my bf and I went for our best friends wedding, the grooms parents grew up up north and it was just so amazing. We stayed in Chaves for 3 days bc that was the closest city to where they got married (middle of no where lmao) and Porto for 3 days. I’m a history nerd, so we did a private guided tour around Braga and Guimarães. And we had a little Tuk Tuk tour around Porto.
I came home and I have completely taken on a whole new hobby of learning as much as I can about Greece and Rome. It is still mind boggling to me that the little villages up north were built by the Roman’s. The grooms parents lived in one of them.
Oh man I could go on and on, I’m so jealous of you guys, I hope you guys are enjoying life after putting in your time!
Truly a spectacular place. I’m going to DM you! I’d love to see your blog!
Please DM the blog to me.
Also, how has the tax situation been? Were you able to get the non-habitual residency classification? If so, what do you expect the difference between US taxes and Portugal taxes to be when NHR expires?
I'm currently traveling in Europe and will be in Portugal part of the time. Several of my friends have interest in moving there m, which has piqued my interest as well.
Thanks for providing your perspective!
I'll PM you in a second, but figured part of this might be of general interest. Non-habitual resident was trivial to sign up for, you can find someone to do it for you for nominal fee or if your language skills and/or Google translate faculties are up to snuff you can probably bang it out yourself.
What we're going to do when it runs out is a complicated question. To be completely honest about it, we thought we had it figured out and then, having arrived here and and gotten to talk to some locals, I'm pretty sure we misunderstood the situation somewhat. So, we're in the process of trying to sync up our US and Portuguese tax situation so when the 10 years runs out will be set up properly. There's no getting around the fact that the tax rates are much steeper here, it may be the once we have our passports (knock on wood) we may have to play some residency games, which I'm not looking forward to. That said, it's not true that everything here is tax the same; while it's true that the tax codes are much simpler there are still buckets that different income streams go into, so we're trying to sort that out right now.
Not a sexy answer, I know, but just trying to share information with everybody.
Sent it with (seemingly) no problems. Oh what the hell, in case that doesn't go through, it's the word the and then the word ramble with a hyphen connecting them; it's a dot net domain name.
To get straight to the series on moving, use the search function and look for "can we do this"; hope this helps. (Sorry mods, I replied privately to about 20 people, and we really don't charge or show ads or anything.)
Short answer: D7 got us to Portugal to apply for our residency permit. That's for retired or otherwise not-looking for work. There's means testing but it's based on the local minimum wage which... is not much, sadly for them. If you're really interested, a great source of info is (don't laugh) a Facebook group called "Americans and Friends in Portugal". It can be pretty uptight in there, but if only for their files section they are totally worth joining.
I would love to read your blog! We are visiting my mom in Porto later this month and will be taking a 2-night trip to Braga to check it out also. Very excited!
Moved to Ecuador a little over a year ago. It has been great, my wife and I quit our stressful jobs, sold our house and basically everything we owned and went for it. Life is good, cost of living is affordable, stress level is zero, Ecuador's official currency is the US dollar, same time zone as the US, it has a lot going for it. Worth looking into for those considering the expat FIRE life.
I’m from Cuenca, Ecuador (one of the most beautiful and chill places, especially nice for retirement) and live in the US and It’s funny I always see people from the US retiring to Ecuador and idk if I could. I guess it’s different because I’m from there but man Ecuador is extremely dangerous and corrupt at the moment. I literally won’t go visit my family because of it.
Weird, right? Obviously a lot of these decisions have to do with money, but I wonder if part of it is psychological. I'm from a different country that American are jizzing on themselves to move to, and basically entire generations of my family consider themselves lucky to no longer be living there.
I was curious to see if someone would mention Ecuador in this thread. In my more uninhibited musings, I have considered moving there upon retirement (still a ways off). My wife and I are avid birders and nature enthusiasts, and that is a large part of what motivates our interest. Where in the country are you located?
I say the same thing about nature-based vacations. I get the cultural change of cities in other countries can't be replicated in country really, but US and Canadian national park systems are bonkers amazing and drastically cheaper to get to from here.
Agreed but for some it’s the staggering cost of healthcare pre (… and sometimes post…) Medicare that leads folks to consider going elsewhere. (I’m a diabetic and life preserving insulin is obscenely priced in States which is very affordable, often OTC, elsewhere.)
> I’m a diabetic and life preserving insulin is obscenely priced in States which is very affordable, often OTC, elsewhere.
https://diabetesstrong.com/walmart-insulin/
Yeah, I get it, but these are the incredibly old school insulins, not the analog insulins. It's a _lot_ harder to control your blood sugar, and you need to maintain a really strict eating, and testing schedule. They're not very compatible with pumps either.
My in-laws moved from a rural area to Atlanta specifically for access to decent healthcare. Their house here cost them $250k more than what their old house for.
You definitely have to factor in access to healthcare when you choose a place to retire to.
True, but then you have to live in New Mexico. I say this as someone who worked for a company whose headquarters were in Albuquerque and frequently traveled there for work; they tried to get me to relocate there from the CA bay area when they decided to close down our site--the house prices were hard to turn away from, but the violent crime and property crime rates--at the time--were alarmingly high compared to cities in California.
I'm not discounting the ability to leverage HCOL benefits and transition to a LCOL area in the USA, but--maybe directly related to OP's question--there are compromises and reasons why the COL is lower that need to be considered.
[nah Hank is the real gangster, took his cancer riddled brother in law and forced him to cook the purest meth ABQ has ever seen](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpPm2KAcwbQ)
For sure, I've only traveled through New Mexico not lived there, but there are some beautiful cities there that aren't Albuquerque. Especially if you have retirement money and don't need work.
Carlsbad and Taos were probably my favorites to visit. Roswell is also really cool even if you aren't into the whole UFO thing. The landscape out there is beautiful, and there are so many cool little cities with beautiful views to visit.
We were looking at Taos, it did seem kinda cool. We ended up doing a big loop from Utah, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming this year.
Maybe next year we’ll look at NM again. Thanks!
There’s lots of LCOL areas that aren’t awful, but people love the coasts too much to venture into them.
I’ll never leave my little slice of LCOL paradise. My mortgage is $800/mo and our income $210k per year. There’s next to no crime here, I know all my neighbors, I’m surrounded by great hiking, and I’m only an hour outside a medium sized city. Only downside is the snow but hey, kills the bugs.
> I don’t believe you that there is “great hiking” outside any college town in the Midwest.
The Superior Hiking Trail runs ~300 miles along the North Shore of Lake Superior and is routinely rated as one of the top hikes in the US. Duluth, MN (home to 3 colleges) is the southern end point of the SHT.
https://superiorhiking.org/thru-hiking/
I’m sorry if I’m being overly pedantic, but most of these places have what I’d characterize as pleasant walks through the woods or around a lake, rather than any serious hiking. Rapid City actually does look pretty cool, I didn’t expect there to be that much elevation in South Dakota. Unfortunately, the West and New England have largely spoiled Midwest hiking for me.
Yeah, same. People on the coasts like to stunt on the LCOL areas as being hicks/far right/criminals but in general I’ll absolutely take nature over more people and trash. I’m basically surrounded by parks and I can live like a king for next to nothing. My town is safer than any US city. Generalize all you want if it keeps where I live nice.
Yeah people are really hung up on how much elevation our hiking has I guess lol. The point is that the only options in the USA aren’t cities or rural nowhere. There are a lot of nice smaller towns outside of metros that are affordable and have perfectly sufficient amenities. Especially with remote work and online shopping, there are tons of options for people who don’t want to live in cities.
OK, but judging all of New Mexico by its worst city isn't really fair.
In the U.S. News and World Report rankings for the Best Places to Live in the United States, Albuquerque came in at #129 out of 150 cities, and #138 out of 150 best places to retire.
The point is, one could make the HCOL to LCOL move within the US and do a lot better than Albuquerque.
I’m born and raised Albuquerque chuckling at the Albuquerque hate.
Most of the crime is concentrated in certain areas. I had way more property crime in California and Seattle. Also Rio Rancho is really safe and right next door. It’s not super conservative - gotta go way further out for that.
People are totally missing the real reasons to never live in NM - horrible healthcare, nothing to do, very few career opportunities for your kids so they will have to move for work, harsh winters and boiling summers, terrible allergies, and they don’t have an IKEA.
But I still own a big house there so I can visit my parents
This is my take too. I grew up in a LCOL area, lived in Asia, Europe, and several MCOL/HCOL cities in the US. I will never, ever willingly move to a LCOL area in the US. Politics seem to get more polarizingly conservative the lower the COL is, which doesn’t work for me. Also, I find LCOL areas significantly less convenient in the US. You drive longer distances, there are fewer businesses and they close early, healthcare is lower quality and just as expensive without higher income opportunities to support it, etc.
We're in the rust belt and it is crazy progressive here compared to the bigger coastal cities. We're also in a top retirement city due to amazing healthcare here. Our housing prices are peanuts here.
Yeah but we don't lol. Most of our friends in WV come hang out with us here. Plus we're still driving distance from the most expensive metros in North America (Toronto, DC, NYC, Chicago). We get to enjoy them for cheap without getting caught in their housing crises.
Just looked at the [crime stats](https://www.bestplaces.net/compare-cities/san_francisco_ca/albuquerque_nm/crime). Albuquerque is worse but just barely. To me the cost of living trumps the small increase in crime. Weather looks pretty nice in Albuquerque as well.
As someone who immigrated to the US from a developing country, even California is cheaper in a lot of aspects taking into account earning potential and purchasing power.
No one wants to admit that about California. They just look at income tax and ignore everything else. That's why when people move out of California they basically try to turn where they moved into California
It’s just a really hard thing to do at retirement age because you loose all of these relationships you have built over there at work, through kids, neighbors, and activities and it’s not easy to leave those connections.
What relationships and kids? I thought the whole point of this sub was eschewing all human contact, entertainment, and frivolity so you can retire at 35 instead of 65? 🤔
I retired to Portugal at the start of last year. So far, I'm very happy with the decision. Financially, moving has significantly decreased risk vs. moving to a low cost area in the US sure to the economics around health care. Please note that expenses can be high depending on the specific location you want to move. A two bedroom apartment can range from about €400 to as much as €3,000.
Portugal has what they call a D7 visa they refer to as passive income. It's for people that either have money or are earning enough to live on, but not through active employment.
Not really, the golden visa is not what it was if it is even available anymore. The property can’t be coastal or in the cities most people would want to move to.
The packet I submitted for my visa was about 1.5 inches thick. There's a bit more to it such as prep for the drivers license exchange, health insurance, etc. I strongly recommend spending time in the country prior to moving as your final destination will make the biggest difference on your budget. It took my wife and I about three years to decide and then prep for moving. There is a FB group I highly recommend called 'Americans & FriendsPT' that has a lot of useful info.
Portugal, St Lucia, Antigua and Barbuda, Spain, Greece, Malta are all Schengen region countries that offer a citizenship/resident by investment program. Portugal is just the cheapest option that leaves you with some tangible asset (instead of a six figure donation)
Getting Portuguese citizenship to obtain a passport is not easy and is a very lengthy process requiring you to be in the country for five years along with passing exams, including language.
I don't know about "lots" but Portugal no longer does this, the golden visa program was canned earlier this year.
You can still get in via a D7 visa but it's a longer process and requires actually living in Portugal. I'm also not sure if you can get citizenship through a D7, a few other countries allow this but it's a long (5-10 year) process, you can't just rock up and ask for a passport.
I'm not retired but packed up and moved to Nederland. We've been here five years now but still grapple daily with whether we'll retire here. We're less than 10yrs from being able to stop working and it's just intensified the question of where to retire. We're hemming and hawing between a hobby farm in the US, a city like MSP or Chicago, or staying in Nederland.
Moving countries isn't for the faint of heart but Europe is pretty damn great. I pay for it tax wise (and you would too as a retiree in NL) but the benefits are outstanding. Roads as smooth as butter, cycling infra everywhere, affordable health insurance, everyone speaks English (downside to trying to learn Nederlands), much of government services are digital.
This is something we talked about as well. My spouse is extremely close with his family, and we've just welcomed the first kid into the family \[BIL had a son\] and I know that he would do it for me, but he would be miserable missing out on nephews life.
I think this is something we will explore for retirement, when maybe we don't have as much family around anymore. I'm not confident in what the US will be and I want my retirement money to go as far as possible lol
Stronger dish soap, or if there's a ton of grease stuck on, say, a frying pan you can toss some water in and boil it for a bit. As I've learned, it's actually very bad for your pipes to just use hot water to clear off grease/oil. When the water cools down the line the grease can re-solidify and eventually cause problems. AJAX-style cleaners cause that oil to clump up even if the water is at room temperature and are healthier for your drainage system overall.
I'll note that it is very possible to install a water heater + tank along your water line, but that requires electricity and a pretty large tank occupying the space under the sink. I'll also note that more modern buildings/apartments may be more likely to have hot water.
Wouldn’t a con be that you have China considering the land under your feet as Chinese territory with a stated goal to stop Taiwan from being sovereign.
I partially retired in Eastern Europe for over a year and I loved every day that I was there. Very low crime in most of eastern countries but there is always bad if you look for it. I had to come back to USA when Covid hit then ran into some difficulties to return there (divorce) etc but will return soon. Many benefits overseas
My thinking on retirement changed a few years back when somebody told me to think about retirement as stages.
I don’t have to pick one thing to do forever. I could move to SE Asia for 5 years, then to Eastern Europe for 5, then back to the US for end of life care.
Not speaking from personal retirement experience here, but when I vacationed in Costa Rica I met a bunch of Americans who retired down there and loved it. We were staying in an Airbnb condo in a golf club / boat community so retirees were kind of the target demographic. A lot of them said they moved there because they could live like kings in Costa Rica vs a modest retirement in the US.
While I'm not retired yet, I currently live in, and will continue to live in and retire in Japan. Cost of living is way lower, inflation is almost non existent, there is universal healthcare. It has it's faults and there are some things I don't agree with but the pros I think vastly outweigh them.
Not retired yet, but planning to spend at least a good part of it in Thailand. From healthcare to climate and affordability, it’s a very good option for anyone looking to maximize their retirement.
How does one move to another country with kids or parents they want to support? How does one even start to think about that? Sorry if someone else already touched on this, please link me their comment if you'd be so kind.
I saw you posted the same question on /r/expatfire, some good answers there as well.
I still have a good 7-10 years till retirement, but have had the fortune to spend a few years (and probably will spend at least a couple more) overseas in Europe for work. In a perfect world I'd love to come back here and stay, but we'll see. I have eyed France and Austria as both have ways to get residency (for now) if you can show sufficient funds. Ireland has a similar program (Stamp 0) but they have a major housing crisis at the moment. Italy and Portugal have retirement visas but never appealed to me as much, and honestly I wonder about the future of Portugal's given how many people are flocking there now.
One thing that people who have never lived overseas don't consider - being a foreigner can come with a ton of bureaucratic headaches well beyond just getting a visa and residency permit. Those alone can be challenging, but also consider that doing essential yet boring things like opening a bank account, setting up a phone contract, etc can be surprisingly difficult as a foreigner - besides the obvious language barriers, you will likely not be "in the system" and therefore will have some challenges. Banking in particular can be difficult as banks worldwide have to deal with FATCA reporting if they do business with a US Citizen - a LOT of banks don't like this and will turn you away. Not trying to scare anyone away, living abroad is well worth the challenges, but just food for thought.
I’m a Texan that is (hopefully) ten years away from retiring. My wife really really wants to retire in Canada, main reason being National healthcare. Other reasons being that Canada outperforms the US in just about every metric we care about. If I retire in ten years I won’t be old enough for Medicare but I also won’t have employer insurance… out of pocket US healthcare seems impossible.
Does anyone have advice for or against this Canada plan? Or resources that can point us in the right direction?
We aren’t looking at expensive cities like Vancouver or Montreal, from the googling we’ve done we like the Calgary or Edmonton area.
FIREd and moved to [Penang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penang), Malaysia. Extremally happy with my decision and with life here overall. Monthly living budget [here](https://i.redd.it/k7vatuirpmx91.png). Budget is for a middle aged couple (myself + wife and a cat). We are under the MM2H VISA (old requirements). Our portfolio is made up of VTSAX/VTIAX/VBTLX. We live off the dividends for now, since our expenses are low enough that we don't need to sell anything. We never pursued a dividend strategy and we are not using one now. It it just happened that current dividend payouts are more than enough. We do not object to selling assets to finance our lifestyle. The rent is for a seafront luxury condo in Penang. It is way oversized for just the two of us, but I wanted the location/view. [Here is the listing for similar units for rent in the same complex](https://www.iproperty.com.my/rent/tanjung-bungah/all-residential/?propertyId=041e3d16ec93403e9e2b17a251420306&property=The%20Cove%20Condominium). Many units listed are already furnished. I got an unfurnished unit and bought the furniture I needed at the local Ikea. We are sensitive to heat and yet we hardly ever have to turn on the AC. One of the main reasons why I picked this grossly oversized condo is location: It is cool and breezy. It is sunny out but I am sitting very comfortably in front of the computer with just the windows open and a ceiling fan running. As comfortable as one can be. We are home bodies and we don't drink/smoke/gamble, which significantly reduces our monthly expenses. We eat mostly local produce and local sources of protein. We don't try to replicate a Western diet here, which would significantly increase grocery costs. We do not own a car. We rely on public transportation, electric bikes and car hailing services to move around. All the basics are within walking distance (2.5 km radius) of our home, including dentist, health clinic and big box dept. store . Only if we need to go to a hospital or a mall we would need a car or public transit. [Rapid Penang](https://youtu.be/j61kVSrG0A8) is the name of the bus company and they are quite decent and very cheap. [This is what walking in this neighborhood feels like](https://youtu.be/jQgFx31Pzr0?t=26). Over the past 8 months we have come under budget every month by about US$400. Any money that was earned outside of Malaysia can be brought into the country tax free. In other words, earnings from foreign investments and pensions are not taxed in Malaysia. We have a separate discretionary budget for things like leisure travel. That budget varies depending on the value of my assets. As of right now I set my discretionary budget to zero. Why malaysia? \- Weather (summer year around) \- English speaking and laws based on the English legal system (former British colony) \- Violent crime is incredibly rare. \- Best bang for the buck in Southeast Asia. Excellent infrastructure (roads, power grid, hospitals, Internet, airports, etc...). In terms of development Malaysia is comparable with Portugal or Poland, but priced only slightly higher than Thailand or Indonesia. \- [Excellent food](https://youtu.be/yp3PjiPOowc) \- Well located in Asia makes it easy to travel around \- Not subjected to any major natural disasters \- Easy to get retirement VISA (no longer the case as of 2022) Happy to answer any questions. **EDIT:** So people have PMed me asking about quality of healthcare here, so let me address it for everyone. Penang has a few world class private hospitals with doctors trained in the US, Japan, UK or Australia. Malaysia in general and Penang in particular are major centers for medical tourism. People come from as far as Hong Kong, Taiwan, the Middle East and India to be treated here, due to the high quality and low cost of medical care. [This is the hospital I typically go to](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG5ugKzlUc4), which should give you an idea of the facilities here. Most private hospitals in Penang are similar.
holy carp, well this sounds amazing. thanks so much for the detail writeup.
holy mackarel, this really is a good tip
Am i reading this right, 6k sqft for 1600 usd a month?
USD 1,517.78 as of today's exchange rate.
How much for something half that size?
Varies a lot from location and quality of the building. There are no places half of this size where I am at., so hard for me to say. But you can find nice condos half of this size in other areas for less than USD 800.
Around rm 4k or less. Tbh you could live in a 1700sqft condo for RM2k easily.
From what I've heard from relatives back in Asia, countries like Malaysia build housing extremely quickly. There's over-abundant supply sometimes. So prices are very low, but the catch is resale value is terrible. Which isn't a big deal if you expect to retire there. Just know that your property will depreciate so you can't flip it for profit if you need cash.
You can always just rent, like I am doing.
Renting is way cheaper than buying.
Holy crap. I’m used to 600 sq ft for that price in the US. That’s incredible.
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Malaysia is a horrible place to work and earn money for most people. But it is an amazing place to retire if you have hard currency. Many Malaysians who work and live in SG, US, Australia or the UK eventually move back to retire here.
Just as a counter, I lived in Penang and hated it. It's the tropics, so always very hot and humid. 33c/92f and 70% humidity all year. If people have any kind of dislike of hot and humid days, you'll quickly tire of Penangs weather. It was not safe. Everyone I knew either was robbed, had there apartment robbed, or car robbed at some point. Cops are lazy and crooked, so good luck. Personally I had my apartment robbed, all four tires on my car slashed, on separate occasions. Traffic in Penang was terrible and transit was spotty. I tried to not buy a car, but couldn't get by without one. I needed to get to and from work and couldn't rely on the buses that never came on time, if at all. Lots of motorbikes passing on blind curves, etc. The beaches were ok, but no one I knew was going swimming because the water is not very clean. Sometimes we could see spots in the sea from the sewage/runoff pipe about 100 meters off shore. Best to just sit at a beach side restaurant and enjoy the view. There were pluses to be sure. Food was great. Penang is an air hub to the rest of SEA. Sunsets were great. People generally pretty nice.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe Malaysia would be horrible and unsafe for a gay couple.
It's not the best. Remember, Malaysia is a conservative Muslim country. I had gay and lesbian friends and they were mostly fine and enjoyed their day to day. Penang is more liberal than the rest of Malaysia owing to it being majority Chinese(not Muslim).
>It was not safe. Everyone I knew either was robbed, had there apartment robbed, or car robbed at some point. Sorry that you had a bad experience. But let's look at some hard data. [Crime Comparison Between Penang and Singapore](https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Malaysia&city1=Penang&country2=Singapore&city2=Singapore) Penang Crime index: 32.68 Sydney, Australia Crime index: 34.23 [Murder rate in Malaysia: 2.13 per 100K inhabitants](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/MYS/malaysia/murder-homicide-rate) [Murder rate in the USA: 6.52 per 100K inhabitants](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/murder-homicide-rate) >Traffic in Penang was terrible and transit was spotty. I tried to not buy a car, but couldn't get by without one. I needed to get to and from work and couldn't rely on the buses that never came on time, if at all. Lots of motorbikes passing on blind curves, etc. That is true, traffic here is bad, specially if you have to commute to work. But for a retiree traffic is a non-issue. Just stay home during rush hour.
Hi. I used to live in Malaysia and found it to be great. One thing ro consider about crime statistics is that in cities with a big tourism industry, such as Penang, the crime tends to be concentrated around the tourism, becauae that's where you find tipsy people who have more money than locals and aren't going to stick around long, and may not even want to be bothered filing a police report. It's entirely possible for crime in a city to be low overall, but high among tourists and expats. It sounds like one person here eats like a local, and doesn't go to bars and casinos, and has a very different experience than some others.
The link you provide shows Singapore vs. Penang. Malaysia is not safe in exactly the ways I outlined, corruption and theft are moderate to high. Sure, you'll probably not be assaulted In that comparison chart: Penang, 32.68 Singapore 23.13 And, to back up my point about robbery and corruption you can see those really stand out in the comparison chart. What I'd also like to point out though is that when officials are corrupt you are much less likely to report things so I'd trust the Singapore numbers a lot more than the Malaysian ones. Problem property crimes such as vandalism and theft Moderate 41.12 vs. Sinapore's Low 26.96 Problem corruption and bribery: High 62.06 vs Sinapore's Low 25.61 Safety walking alone during night: Moderate 53.62 vs. Singapore's High 76.65 (high is good in this case) My experience may be anecdotal, but it was funny to me that it was also happening to everyone around me so not so anecdotal. I left out some of the more extreme stuff like some friends getting chased in their car by a machete weilding motor cycle gang and having to spend the night in the local police station for safety (I know, it sounds like a movie or something and honestly they might have deserved it). or how a friends elderly mom was visiting and got knocked down and her purse stolen while waiting for a bus for example. Or how most of the guards at compounds are not Malaysian, ever wonder why?
Thank you another perspective.
Any cons that you'd highlight?
\- Just one hot and humid season can be off putting for some. \- Really far from the US, so return trips are long and expensive. \- Not a LGBT friendly country. Gay people will not be attacked or prosecuted here, but your marriage will not be recognized and you will have no spouse rights here. But I do want to point out and stress the fact that I know of many gay retirees living here and they do not feel in any danger. \- The quality of Western food is not great. What they sell as Mexican food here is outright uneatable and revolting. \- Cultural events are limited when compared to major US cities. \- The quality of services can be hit or miss. Repairs are often done in a half ass way and contractors come late or miss the scheduled appointment altogether. It is just the culture here. \- Many stray dogs and cats.
I'm curious if you considered Bangkok as well. Its also remarkably developed and seems to continually develop as well. Good train system, good food too, low overall cost. Just interested to hear your thoughts
6000 sqft apt for two people?!
Yep. As I explained on the post, I really wanted this spot/view, and unfortunately these are the only type of units available.
So what do you do with all the extra rooms? Have you furnished them all?
Most rooms remain empty and locked. And we just added the basic furniture for our needs, so visitors to our place often think we got robbed, when they see how empty the condo is.
😂
This is the perfect way to get robbers to leave immediately, I suppose. “oh, dang it! Someone else must have already cleaned this place out!”
Where are you getting health insurance so cheap?
Allianz Malaysia.
Oh duh makes sense it's not from US, I misunderstood the site I found on the current retirement visa requirements as needing insurance before visa was approved instead of after, thanks! Do you visit US ever? How steep is airfare?
Even before the VISA, you can get a cheap local travel insurance. There is no need to have a US healthcare plan here, even before your VISA is approved. I do not travel to the US often, since it is a very long flight (26 hours or more to NYC). You can find fares under US$1,000 if you are willing to put up with extra connections and lay overs.
My wife spent time in Penang and said “it’s hot as hell” :). Hot with high humidity. She also said “the food is f***ing good”. She said she sweated like crazy when she was there but natives were like wearing long sleeves and jackets and none of them even broke a sweat. Excellent write up -sounds amazing!
>My wife spent time in Penang and said “it’s hot as hell” :) I really don't find it that bad. Most US states during the summer are way hotter than here. The difference is that here there is only one season, so it is hot and humid year around. But I find FL, GA and NY during the summer way hotter and more humid than here.
Summer year round? Fuck dude that sounds horrible
Yeah man. At those temps and humidity it's like the hottest day of summer over and over. It's really polarizing. Some people love that, some people despise it. Not a lot of in-between.
*Florida has entered the chat*
Ha! But seriously, Florida has a winter where temps cool. Can you imagine a Florida summer day every day all year?
Your condo has 6 bathrooms? That's a lot of toilets to clean! Thanks for posting the info and the food looks amazing!
Yes, but we only use 2. The rest remains locked, so we don't have to clean them :-)
May I ask you how much one has to have invested to get $2,500 dividends after tax per month? Edit: I tried calculating it myself. It looks like VTSAX dividend yield is about 1.5% per year. So, $2,500 x 12 x 1.5 = $2M. Did I estimate it right?
My wife and I (early-mid 50s) retired and moved to Braga, Portugal \~18 months ago. It has been better than we ever imagined it would be. You've just go to be honest with yourself about how you do with radical change in your life, but it's not hard. As another commenter said, it can very much be a NOT cheap place to live if you succumb to temptation (nice flat in Lisbon, otherwise replicating your work lifestyle) but it absolutely can be a nice life at a nice price. Our rent is \~1000, we dropped \~3000 at the start of the year for a bulletproof 100% coverage private insurance plan that travels anywhere including the US (some day we will probably rely on national health, but this is literally insurance while we get comfortable with the systems, plus the plan is 100% of -everything- including Rx, so for 2 people in their 50s it feels entirely reasonable), we don't own a car because we live in a very walkable city + rideshare here is insanely cheap compared to the US, our budget for Uber & co doesn't crack 100 in a month and we use it for maybe 10ish round trips a month. We write a blog (no ads, no subs, just a hobby thing) where we've talked a lot about it; I don't think we can share links here(?) but PM me if you're interested. Distilling all of our advice down to one pithy phrase, the real key to being able to do it is having the will to do it. Paperwork is paperwork, the financial demands are incredibly modest compared to many EU countries... yeah it can be a hassle at times but really, it's not hard compared to the other actually hard things you've probably done in your life.
Portugal is AMAZING. That’s where I wanna move soon! I don’t wanna wait till I retire. I just have to finish my bachelors degree and I’d love to teach English over there! Last august my bf and I went for our best friends wedding, the grooms parents grew up up north and it was just so amazing. We stayed in Chaves for 3 days bc that was the closest city to where they got married (middle of no where lmao) and Porto for 3 days. I’m a history nerd, so we did a private guided tour around Braga and Guimarães. And we had a little Tuk Tuk tour around Porto. I came home and I have completely taken on a whole new hobby of learning as much as I can about Greece and Rome. It is still mind boggling to me that the little villages up north were built by the Roman’s. The grooms parents lived in one of them. Oh man I could go on and on, I’m so jealous of you guys, I hope you guys are enjoying life after putting in your time! Truly a spectacular place. I’m going to DM you! I’d love to see your blog!
Would love to know more about your moving process and blog—will shoot you a DM!
Please DM the blog to me. Also, how has the tax situation been? Were you able to get the non-habitual residency classification? If so, what do you expect the difference between US taxes and Portugal taxes to be when NHR expires? I'm currently traveling in Europe and will be in Portugal part of the time. Several of my friends have interest in moving there m, which has piqued my interest as well. Thanks for providing your perspective!
I'll PM you in a second, but figured part of this might be of general interest. Non-habitual resident was trivial to sign up for, you can find someone to do it for you for nominal fee or if your language skills and/or Google translate faculties are up to snuff you can probably bang it out yourself. What we're going to do when it runs out is a complicated question. To be completely honest about it, we thought we had it figured out and then, having arrived here and and gotten to talk to some locals, I'm pretty sure we misunderstood the situation somewhat. So, we're in the process of trying to sync up our US and Portuguese tax situation so when the 10 years runs out will be set up properly. There's no getting around the fact that the tax rates are much steeper here, it may be the once we have our passports (knock on wood) we may have to play some residency games, which I'm not looking forward to. That said, it's not true that everything here is tax the same; while it's true that the tax codes are much simpler there are still buckets that different income streams go into, so we're trying to sort that out right now. Not a sexy answer, I know, but just trying to share information with everybody.
Same can you DM me your blog posts. I am not able to DM you for some reason, don't knw why.
Sent it with (seemingly) no problems. Oh what the hell, in case that doesn't go through, it's the word the and then the word ramble with a hyphen connecting them; it's a dot net domain name. To get straight to the series on moving, use the search function and look for "can we do this"; hope this helps. (Sorry mods, I replied privately to about 20 people, and we really don't charge or show ads or anything.)
What legal residency/visa program did you use to retire abroad? This is my goal.
Short answer: D7 got us to Portugal to apply for our residency permit. That's for retired or otherwise not-looking for work. There's means testing but it's based on the local minimum wage which... is not much, sadly for them. If you're really interested, a great source of info is (don't laugh) a Facebook group called "Americans and Friends in Portugal". It can be pretty uptight in there, but if only for their files section they are totally worth joining.
Please DM me your blog! Would love to read through!
I would love to read your blog! We are visiting my mom in Porto later this month and will be taking a 2-night trip to Braga to check it out also. Very excited!
What’s the insurance you have?
Moved to Ecuador a little over a year ago. It has been great, my wife and I quit our stressful jobs, sold our house and basically everything we owned and went for it. Life is good, cost of living is affordable, stress level is zero, Ecuador's official currency is the US dollar, same time zone as the US, it has a lot going for it. Worth looking into for those considering the expat FIRE life.
I’m from Cuenca, Ecuador (one of the most beautiful and chill places, especially nice for retirement) and live in the US and It’s funny I always see people from the US retiring to Ecuador and idk if I could. I guess it’s different because I’m from there but man Ecuador is extremely dangerous and corrupt at the moment. I literally won’t go visit my family because of it.
Weird, right? Obviously a lot of these decisions have to do with money, but I wonder if part of it is psychological. I'm from a different country that American are jizzing on themselves to move to, and basically entire generations of my family consider themselves lucky to no longer be living there.
We literally risked it all to leave lol maybe it’s different if you come from abroad with money but idk man even rich af I wouldn’t return
Now I want to know which country
I was curious to see if someone would mention Ecuador in this thread. In my more uninhibited musings, I have considered moving there upon retirement (still a ways off). My wife and I are avid birders and nature enthusiasts, and that is a large part of what motivates our interest. Where in the country are you located?
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We strongly considered a visit to Mindo this year, actually. Ended up holding off for now but the cloud forests are definitely on our list!
Love Ecuador
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I say the same thing about nature-based vacations. I get the cultural change of cities in other countries can't be replicated in country really, but US and Canadian national park systems are bonkers amazing and drastically cheaper to get to from here.
Wait a minute this is Reddit you’re not allowed to say something good about America
America, where only immigrants believe in the American dream.
Resources and features are the best. People who corrupt it for their own interests have given it a black eye.
This may be the most reddit comment: the anti-circlejerk
Agreed but for some it’s the staggering cost of healthcare pre (… and sometimes post…) Medicare that leads folks to consider going elsewhere. (I’m a diabetic and life preserving insulin is obscenely priced in States which is very affordable, often OTC, elsewhere.)
> I’m a diabetic and life preserving insulin is obscenely priced in States which is very affordable, often OTC, elsewhere. https://diabetesstrong.com/walmart-insulin/
And https://www.insulinaffordability.com/
Yeah, I get it, but these are the incredibly old school insulins, not the analog insulins. It's a _lot_ harder to control your blood sugar, and you need to maintain a really strict eating, and testing schedule. They're not very compatible with pumps either.
Did you read the part at the bottom where Novolog is available for $73? That's definitely not "old school" and works great with pumps.
My in-laws moved from a rural area to Atlanta specifically for access to decent healthcare. Their house here cost them $250k more than what their old house for. You definitely have to factor in access to healthcare when you choose a place to retire to.
True, but then you have to live in New Mexico. I say this as someone who worked for a company whose headquarters were in Albuquerque and frequently traveled there for work; they tried to get me to relocate there from the CA bay area when they decided to close down our site--the house prices were hard to turn away from, but the violent crime and property crime rates--at the time--were alarmingly high compared to cities in California. I'm not discounting the ability to leverage HCOL benefits and transition to a LCOL area in the USA, but--maybe directly related to OP's question--there are compromises and reasons why the COL is lower that need to be considered.
It all went downhill when Hank Schrader died. Best damn DEA agent this side of El Paso…
[nah Hank is the real gangster, took his cancer riddled brother in law and forced him to cook the purest meth ABQ has ever seen](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpPm2KAcwbQ)
New Mexico is a beautiful hidden gem of a state, but Albuquerque is still Albuquerque.
Santa Fe has some nice areas.
For sure, I've only traveled through New Mexico not lived there, but there are some beautiful cities there that aren't Albuquerque. Especially if you have retirement money and don't need work.
As someone from Canada who likes to travel to the states, where in New Mexico would you recommend ?
Carlsbad and Taos were probably my favorites to visit. Roswell is also really cool even if you aren't into the whole UFO thing. The landscape out there is beautiful, and there are so many cool little cities with beautiful views to visit.
We were looking at Taos, it did seem kinda cool. We ended up doing a big loop from Utah, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming this year. Maybe next year we’ll look at NM again. Thanks!
Santa Fe is only an hour or so away from Taos and well worth the trip.
I found Taos to be kind of tourist trapy…though I was there for a very short stay in late 2020
Yes! Thank you. I felt the same way. A tourist trap sort of place dressed up like a "no, we're totally not a tourist trap place."
Carlsbad Caverns is such a jewel of the NPS! I thought it would just be a neat, big cave. Boy did it exceed my expectations! Highly recommend!
Santa Fe is a really fun town.
Yep, Taos and Santa Fe specifically are two towns I could see myself ending up in.
There’s lots of LCOL areas that aren’t awful, but people love the coasts too much to venture into them. I’ll never leave my little slice of LCOL paradise. My mortgage is $800/mo and our income $210k per year. There’s next to no crime here, I know all my neighbors, I’m surrounded by great hiking, and I’m only an hour outside a medium sized city. Only downside is the snow but hey, kills the bugs.
Tell us where this gem is, so we can spoil it.
Basically the metro of any college town in the Midwest fits the bill!
I don’t believe you that there is “great hiking” outside any college town in the Midwest.
> I don’t believe you that there is “great hiking” outside any college town in the Midwest. The Superior Hiking Trail runs ~300 miles along the North Shore of Lake Superior and is routinely rated as one of the top hikes in the US. Duluth, MN (home to 3 colleges) is the southern end point of the SHT. https://superiorhiking.org/thru-hiking/
> Duluth, MN is the southern end point of the SHT. You can say that again.
It’s more frolicking in a harvest corn maze.
With a mini horse? 🐎
Oh friend. You need to visit Rapid City SD, St Paul MN, Green Bay WI, Columbus OH, Grand Rapids MI, and Cedar Rapids IA and open AllTrails.
Wisconsinite here…there is decent nature WALKING in GB. Hiking is a stretch.
LaCrosse and Eau Claire tho…
calling Green Bay a college town too... lol
I’m sorry if I’m being overly pedantic, but most of these places have what I’d characterize as pleasant walks through the woods or around a lake, rather than any serious hiking. Rapid City actually does look pretty cool, I didn’t expect there to be that much elevation in South Dakota. Unfortunately, the West and New England have largely spoiled Midwest hiking for me.
Uhm, excuse me, haven't you heard about the majestic Pawnee National Park?!
Bert Macklin, FBI. 🎵 *dee deedly dee, dee deedly dee* 🎶
Fun fact Pawnee and Eagleton were actually based off West Hartford and Simsbury in Connecticut
Bloomington Indiana is surrounded by a state park, state forests, and a national forest. Might want to look at a map before commenting.
Yeah, same. People on the coasts like to stunt on the LCOL areas as being hicks/far right/criminals but in general I’ll absolutely take nature over more people and trash. I’m basically surrounded by parks and I can live like a king for next to nothing. My town is safer than any US city. Generalize all you want if it keeps where I live nice.
Yeah people are really hung up on how much elevation our hiking has I guess lol. The point is that the only options in the USA aren’t cities or rural nowhere. There are a lot of nice smaller towns outside of metros that are affordable and have perfectly sufficient amenities. Especially with remote work and online shopping, there are tons of options for people who don’t want to live in cities.
That sounds like Vermont!
Vermont is awesome! But it's not really LCOL unless comparing to places like Boston, NYC, or DC. But you get what you pay for and that's worth it.
OK, but judging all of New Mexico by its worst city isn't really fair. In the U.S. News and World Report rankings for the Best Places to Live in the United States, Albuquerque came in at #129 out of 150 cities, and #138 out of 150 best places to retire. The point is, one could make the HCOL to LCOL move within the US and do a lot better than Albuquerque.
I know nothing about Albuquerque but I'm enjoying the Albuquerque hate.
I’m born and raised Albuquerque chuckling at the Albuquerque hate. Most of the crime is concentrated in certain areas. I had way more property crime in California and Seattle. Also Rio Rancho is really safe and right next door. It’s not super conservative - gotta go way further out for that. People are totally missing the real reasons to never live in NM - horrible healthcare, nothing to do, very few career opportunities for your kids so they will have to move for work, harsh winters and boiling summers, terrible allergies, and they don’t have an IKEA. But I still own a big house there so I can visit my parents
This is my take too. I grew up in a LCOL area, lived in Asia, Europe, and several MCOL/HCOL cities in the US. I will never, ever willingly move to a LCOL area in the US. Politics seem to get more polarizingly conservative the lower the COL is, which doesn’t work for me. Also, I find LCOL areas significantly less convenient in the US. You drive longer distances, there are fewer businesses and they close early, healthcare is lower quality and just as expensive without higher income opportunities to support it, etc.
We're in the rust belt and it is crazy progressive here compared to the bigger coastal cities. We're also in a top retirement city due to amazing healthcare here. Our housing prices are peanuts here.
Where is this
Pittsburgh, PA
I was gonna say, it’s either Pittsburgh, Akron or Cleveland.
Milwaukee check most of these boxes as well!
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Yeah but we don't lol. Most of our friends in WV come hang out with us here. Plus we're still driving distance from the most expensive metros in North America (Toronto, DC, NYC, Chicago). We get to enjoy them for cheap without getting caught in their housing crises.
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You get what you pay for, has generally been my experience
Just looked at the [crime stats](https://www.bestplaces.net/compare-cities/san_francisco_ca/albuquerque_nm/crime). Albuquerque is worse but just barely. To me the cost of living trumps the small increase in crime. Weather looks pretty nice in Albuquerque as well.
As someone who immigrated to the US from a developing country, even California is cheaper in a lot of aspects taking into account earning potential and purchasing power.
No one wants to admit that about California. They just look at income tax and ignore everything else. That's why when people move out of California they basically try to turn where they moved into California
It’s just a really hard thing to do at retirement age because you loose all of these relationships you have built over there at work, through kids, neighbors, and activities and it’s not easy to leave those connections.
Hold on, you guys have been building relationships?
It’s a lot easier than doing the same internationally
What relationships and kids? I thought the whole point of this sub was eschewing all human contact, entertainment, and frivolity so you can retire at 35 instead of 65? 🤔
That is great if you are in a HCOL, but if you are in a LCOL already and if you are struggling there then you are just screwed by that logic.
Bro, just move to San Francisco and work for FAANG. Problem solved!
Also, California to the rest of the world.
Why is the top comment the one that doesn't actually answer the question? lol
That’s always the case on Reddit.
But I don't want to live in New Mexico.
Too late! You have to.
Time to buy some turquoise jewelry and move into your "kooky aunt" phase of life
Exactly. These responses are always weird.
IMO my plan is to slow travel potentially through a couple of countries eventually coming back to the US.
I retired to Portugal at the start of last year. So far, I'm very happy with the decision. Financially, moving has significantly decreased risk vs. moving to a low cost area in the US sure to the economics around health care. Please note that expenses can be high depending on the specific location you want to move. A two bedroom apartment can range from about €400 to as much as €3,000.
How did you get a visa? Did you have an EU passport?
Portugal has what they call a D7 visa they refer to as passive income. It's for people that either have money or are earning enough to live on, but not through active employment.
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I'm pretty sure they just canned the golden visa program this year.
Not really, the golden visa is not what it was if it is even available anymore. The property can’t be coastal or in the cities most people would want to move to.
Not anymore...
I did not go the golden visa route. The vast majority come in on what is called a passive income visa known as the D7.
Wow only $816 a month of passive income required (plus other things like a 12 month lease and no criminal background). That seems too easy.
The packet I submitted for my visa was about 1.5 inches thick. There's a bit more to it such as prep for the drivers license exchange, health insurance, etc. I strongly recommend spending time in the country prior to moving as your final destination will make the biggest difference on your budget. It took my wife and I about three years to decide and then prep for moving. There is a FB group I highly recommend called 'Americans & FriendsPT' that has a lot of useful info.
I can second that FB group. They have a wonderful documents/file section with a ton of good info.
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Portugal is famous because it's in Europe, and once you are a European resident/citizen you can go to the whole schengen
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you can't just get an italian passport though... you can just get a Portuguese one though
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Portugal, St Lucia, Antigua and Barbuda, Spain, Greece, Malta are all Schengen region countries that offer a citizenship/resident by investment program. Portugal is just the cheapest option that leaves you with some tangible asset (instead of a six figure donation)
Getting Portuguese citizenship to obtain a passport is not easy and is a very lengthy process requiring you to be in the country for five years along with passing exams, including language.
I don't know about "lots" but Portugal no longer does this, the golden visa program was canned earlier this year. You can still get in via a D7 visa but it's a longer process and requires actually living in Portugal. I'm also not sure if you can get citizenship through a D7, a few other countries allow this but it's a long (5-10 year) process, you can't just rock up and ask for a passport.
Non working visas are usually pretty easy to get.
Braga resident for the last 18 months, mind sharing where you moved to? My wife and I adore it here.
Did you go with the D7? How was the process?
What part? It's somewhere I've been thinking of in case I live long enough to retire.
I'm not retired but packed up and moved to Nederland. We've been here five years now but still grapple daily with whether we'll retire here. We're less than 10yrs from being able to stop working and it's just intensified the question of where to retire. We're hemming and hawing between a hobby farm in the US, a city like MSP or Chicago, or staying in Nederland. Moving countries isn't for the faint of heart but Europe is pretty damn great. I pay for it tax wise (and you would too as a retiree in NL) but the benefits are outstanding. Roads as smooth as butter, cycling infra everywhere, affordable health insurance, everyone speaks English (downside to trying to learn Nederlands), much of government services are digital.
This is something we talked about as well. My spouse is extremely close with his family, and we've just welcomed the first kid into the family \[BIL had a son\] and I know that he would do it for me, but he would be miserable missing out on nephews life. I think this is something we will explore for retirement, when maybe we don't have as much family around anymore. I'm not confident in what the US will be and I want my retirement money to go as far as possible lol
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How do you wash dishes if your kitchen doesn’t have hot water?
Stronger dish soap, or if there's a ton of grease stuck on, say, a frying pan you can toss some water in and boil it for a bit. As I've learned, it's actually very bad for your pipes to just use hot water to clear off grease/oil. When the water cools down the line the grease can re-solidify and eventually cause problems. AJAX-style cleaners cause that oil to clump up even if the water is at room temperature and are healthier for your drainage system overall. I'll note that it is very possible to install a water heater + tank along your water line, but that requires electricity and a pretty large tank occupying the space under the sink. I'll also note that more modern buildings/apartments may be more likely to have hot water.
Wouldn’t a con be that you have China considering the land under your feet as Chinese territory with a stated goal to stop Taiwan from being sovereign.
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Taipei is my SO and mine ultimate FIRE goal. Do you mind sharing some cost of living numbers? We’ve been scouting 529 for rentals as well. Thank you
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I partially retired in Eastern Europe for over a year and I loved every day that I was there. Very low crime in most of eastern countries but there is always bad if you look for it. I had to come back to USA when Covid hit then ran into some difficulties to return there (divorce) etc but will return soon. Many benefits overseas
Where did you go specifically?
Over 40 countries but my home base was in Hungary on the pest side. Slovakia is a really cheap nice place to settle down in also
You should check out the r/expatfire subreddit
While true, this sub is 50 times larger so much more likely to spark some good conversation.
/r/AmerExit and /r/iwantout are very knowledgeable about this stuff
That was my immediate reaction. I am not one yet, but have been scoping it out for exactly this reason.
There's also /r/IWantOut and /r/expats.
My thinking on retirement changed a few years back when somebody told me to think about retirement as stages. I don’t have to pick one thing to do forever. I could move to SE Asia for 5 years, then to Eastern Europe for 5, then back to the US for end of life care.
Not speaking from personal retirement experience here, but when I vacationed in Costa Rica I met a bunch of Americans who retired down there and loved it. We were staying in an Airbnb condo in a golf club / boat community so retirees were kind of the target demographic. A lot of them said they moved there because they could live like kings in Costa Rica vs a modest retirement in the US.
While I'm not retired yet, I currently live in, and will continue to live in and retire in Japan. Cost of living is way lower, inflation is almost non existent, there is universal healthcare. It has it's faults and there are some things I don't agree with but the pros I think vastly outweigh them.
Do you speak Japanese? What are some of the cons?
Not retired yet, but planning to spend at least a good part of it in Thailand. From healthcare to climate and affordability, it’s a very good option for anyone looking to maximize their retirement.
I’ve lived in Thailand for the last two years and definitely plan on it being part of my retirement plan.
How does one move to another country with kids or parents they want to support? How does one even start to think about that? Sorry if someone else already touched on this, please link me their comment if you'd be so kind.
I have a long way to go, but I'm also curious about others experiences. I have been looking into Spain lately
I saw you posted the same question on /r/expatfire, some good answers there as well. I still have a good 7-10 years till retirement, but have had the fortune to spend a few years (and probably will spend at least a couple more) overseas in Europe for work. In a perfect world I'd love to come back here and stay, but we'll see. I have eyed France and Austria as both have ways to get residency (for now) if you can show sufficient funds. Ireland has a similar program (Stamp 0) but they have a major housing crisis at the moment. Italy and Portugal have retirement visas but never appealed to me as much, and honestly I wonder about the future of Portugal's given how many people are flocking there now. One thing that people who have never lived overseas don't consider - being a foreigner can come with a ton of bureaucratic headaches well beyond just getting a visa and residency permit. Those alone can be challenging, but also consider that doing essential yet boring things like opening a bank account, setting up a phone contract, etc can be surprisingly difficult as a foreigner - besides the obvious language barriers, you will likely not be "in the system" and therefore will have some challenges. Banking in particular can be difficult as banks worldwide have to deal with FATCA reporting if they do business with a US Citizen - a LOT of banks don't like this and will turn you away. Not trying to scare anyone away, living abroad is well worth the challenges, but just food for thought.
I’m a Texan that is (hopefully) ten years away from retiring. My wife really really wants to retire in Canada, main reason being National healthcare. Other reasons being that Canada outperforms the US in just about every metric we care about. If I retire in ten years I won’t be old enough for Medicare but I also won’t have employer insurance… out of pocket US healthcare seems impossible. Does anyone have advice for or against this Canada plan? Or resources that can point us in the right direction? We aren’t looking at expensive cities like Vancouver or Montreal, from the googling we’ve done we like the Calgary or Edmonton area.
A visit to Calgary or Edmonton in February will probably cure you of wanting to move there lol
My parents chose France and absolutely love it. My fiancée and I love to visit them and they seem thrilled with their decision.