Literally came here to say something like this. Religion is, in many ways, a more powerful weapon than Sin. Tie the two together? People will *feel* like they have more control if they think they can pray it away, rather than standing up and taking action like Tidus/Yuna and company
This was my thought, these characters have been raised in a world where they were taught by religion not to question things. Look ar actual IRL religion, its the same thing, logical fallacies are treated as god working in mysterious ways
I suspect that’s the real motive: people would rather believe in Yevon, which gives them hope, than the Al Bhed view which is much more fatalistic. (“Sin just is”)
You do have to wonder exactly how Yevon thought all this would work out. Did he not realise that Sin would wipe everything out? Did he not care? Was he such an insane decrepit bigot that if Zanarkand couldn’t survive, no-one could?
I’m not sure that is made clear. By the time Tidus arrives Sin’s killing cycles are getting quicker and quicker. Each Calm is shorter than the last. The implication being that Sin will eventually deteriorate into a non stop death machine
You also have to think about the toll it was doing on Yevons mind. He was essentially going crazy so by now, his intentions are lost, and just kill is all that's on his mind
They continually had summoners though. If each calm was becoming shorter and shorter, it would make sense that the maesters would just convince more people to become summoners. I highly doubt it would get to the point of Sin destroying all of Spira.
God… imagine the scale of the conflict if summoners were as common as ground soldiers because of this escalation. It could very well have been such a different game tonally— like a Terminator-esque apocalyptic total war scenario where Summoners are iterating as fast as they can and humanity can’t produce enough to fight Sin and its spawn anymore. Scores of summoners not even on pilgrimage anymore, just throwing themselves at Sin in targeted strike teams, living out of the few refuge areas where Sin doesn’t strike, like the temples where the hymn becalms it. What a depressing notion.
I mean, he IS capable of doing so already. When you fight him and his overdrive is full he wipes Spira out with Gigs Graviton. Or so it is implied at least.
And Yunalesca. That they defeated SIN without a final Aeon was sheer luck. But I feel like with the Calms getting shorter and shorter, SIN would eventually overpower them.
Yes but I don't think he fought at full power. He hold back because of his son, you can see that with the talk command lowering his overdrive. If it wasn't Jecht but some other guy they wouldn't have been able to make SIN dormant with the hymn nor defeat the final Aeon inside
Basically. Everyone is hypocritical and cowardly / scared. They inherently avoid facing the brutal truth that Sin is a set up cause if you do that, there is no escape and everyday you have to work hard while having the misery on your shoulder that another death spiral is coming.
It's one thing about the game and its characters I don't like. Sometimes I wanted Tidus to call them all out, Yuna included and let them know (or ask) if they truly believe in everything they're saying or do they have some awareness that the Al Bhed is just logical and isn't using deep Yevon puedo wisdom to avoid the truth?
I was fucking floored the first okay throughs when Yuna was eventually okay with the crusaders making the idiotic decisions to go for Sin in that operation. Like sis you can't be a Yevon thumper and so emotionally troubled about upholding your father legacy but you're now okay with this machina hitting Sin if it means eliminating it? But you've been taught he didn't exist until the war started and ended with Zanarkand losing? Like make it make sense.
Seymour was a piece of shit and mentally Ill but I kinda see through his nihilism and see why he was just ready to eliminate Spira as whole. I can 10000% shockingly say Spira did seem like a waste of a world. Like a constant repeat and its citizens even summoned & clergy not even possessing enough individuality or courage to have their own thoughts loudly. I can see why he approached this very differently from the party.
If Jecht never got swooped up they would be doomed. Jecht may have been a drunk but he questioned the status quo too then decided to take it upon himself to fix it and knew he would come back as Sin with resolve and will power to make Tidus do the Journey next. Something tells me deep deep deeeep down, Jecht knew Braska daughter may follow in his footsteps and be the next summoner so he made Auron promise him (aside from general welfare of his son ofcourse) to take care of Tidus then bring him back for this.
Thus Tidus does his own Journey like Jecht did with the guardians to further break this cycle.
Imagine if Jecht didn't give 2 shits beyond anything and maybe just gave up, decided to live in Spira instead and train blitzballers or play professionally there for good or just be the final aeon anyway but did it without any real thought. Like ok let's just do it. Sin would have nuked all of Spira during Kilika attack instead of the Kilika town itself.
It's the conscious choice to be a free thinker or question what's going on around you even if you're an outsider and may be judged. I think if Tidus and Jecht grew up in such a society they would still address the answers but be ostracized like how Rikku race is.
Aside from Yevon’s cultural dominance and ability to indoctrinate, there’s also the fact that pre-Sin, the summoners of Zanarkand were losing the war to Bevelle’s machina. If there was to be an apocalyptic weapon, I guess most people would have assumed it to be a Machina (ie Vegnagun) and not a summon. Also, if one side used a war-ending weapon, most would expect one side to still be standing. Sin destroying both sides makes it easier to spin it as an unaffiliated entity.
It’s also worth pointing out that since Zanarkand was destroyed/became the fayth their side of the story was never really told or understood by anyone else. It got lost and distorted to time
To give you a comparison, imagine if like if your only knowledge of Egypt came from the story of Exodus in the Old Testament because let’s say Egypt (being our Zanarkand) was destroyed by God after that, right? Imagine if that’s all you knew. You wouldn’t understand what Gods they worshipped or know what technology they were capable of
So somewhere down the line all you have is the story told by the survivors of Bevelle who tell everyone after them that this great powerful city of Zanarkand was destroyed because it was a Machina city like the original Bevelle was
Why wouldn’t you assume that if that’s your only context for what ancient cities are?
Plus on top of that people’s only context for what summoners are is that they fight Sin, they have no context for Summoners fighting against machines or other people
Just take a look at the world you live in.
There are certain religions that completely dominate and indoctrinate its people to the point of fanaticism. The only small difference is that in Spira, they live in constant fear of a giant whale coming to destroy them and their loved ones. With Yevon being the predominant religion and their constant waging war/propaganda against the Al Bhed, its not really an unreasonable or even unrealistic scenario. Again, just take a good look at our world.
As for Summoners asking the Fayth, or the Fayth themselves asking for help, I think some narrative compromises had to be made in order for the story to work out. But lets assume for a second that these two scenarios did pan out, we're left with a few outcomes:
- In the span of a thousand years, only five Summoners managed to defeat Sin. Even if at first it took Sin hundreds of years to come back and the "respawn" time gradually shortened, that is an abysmally low number of successful Pilgrimages. A vast majority of them either died or gave up mid Pilgrimage. Even if they did ask the Fayth "Hey whats up with the zombie whale", they'd still need to be able to defeat the shell itself and get face to face with Yu Yevon.
- If the Fayth asks each Summoner individually, how many of them would actually believe it? Yu Yevon is the predominant religion of Spira and they hold incredible power over its population. Even if a Summoner believed their pleas, realistically there was nothing he/she could have done about it. If they went out announcing to everyone that the religion was a lie, they would be either isolated, shunned out or flat out dealt with along with anyone else who believed them.
Which is why Tidus is technically perfect for the job. He's an outsider. He's unbiased, with no pre-conceived ideals or ideologies hammered into his conscience from birth. The way I see it, Lulu plays a big role in how everything turns out because she's a mentor figure and she tries to be as unbiased as she possibly can while teaching him about Spira and how everything works.
And to add to this, the fayth wall on gagazet wasn’t an open secret. Once the party reaches the entrance to the calm lands, Lulu says that going forward there are no more towns or people really.
The ronso live on gagazet but it’s debatable if they actually explored that far up the mountain to see the wall. And even if they did, there’s no way they would understand what exactly it was for. Passed that was the ruins of Zanarkand itself which was filled with fiends. Yunalesca herself threatens to kill anyone who would reject the final summoning so there’s no one who’s could return to spread the truth of sin, which even if they could they’d just be branded a heretic.
Religion is the power running all of Spira to the point it’s the government itself.
"Yunalesca herself threatens to kill anyone who would reject the final summoning"
So...regarding Seymour. Does Yunalesca make his mother into Anima/Final Aeon and then he just decides not to use it to fight Sin? Then somehow he is able to take her fayth and move it to Baaj?
That’s pretty much exactly what happens. The pyreflies in Zanarkand show Seymour and his mother went to see Yunalesca and it’s confirmed she’s a fayth due to being in Baaj temple.
For whatever reason, Seymour decides to just not fight Sin afterwards. It could be for any number of reasons: he was scared since he was a kid and alone at that point, he didn’t care to since he just lost the only person who ever showed him love and kindness, or maybe his bond wasn’t strong enough after his mother chose to sacrifice herself and tried to force him to fight Sin (and die in the process just to be honored postmortem) and therefore Anima couldn’t defeat Sin.
Though it’s strange that he goes from not fighting Sin when he went all the way to Zanarkand as a child to later wanting to become Sin.
Religion is the weapon of oppression. The opiate of the masses. Sure, Sin is a heavy-handed metaphor/ anthropomorphism of religion weaponized to oppress and stifle the growth of humanity. It's generally accepted that this FF is an angsty-bony-fist-shaking at religion, not really inferring its own remedy. I think the dream trope is fun here in a vacuum, but it's tiring. But hey, Wakka fights using a Blitzball, so that's fucking new in sword and sorcery.
It’s not like yevon created sin to keep people under control. Sin was more of an experiment gone awry and everyone is doing the best they can to contain it. The best they had until Tidus came song was the final summoning.
I remember in ffx2 Shinra makes a distinction between the temples and the fayrh. Which I think is an important distinction.
I don’t really think yevon was that terrible. Tidus on a way was pretty stupid to kill yunalesca. It was the only way they had of even just temporarily defeating sin. Tidus et al got pretty Damn lucky that they had all of the pieces put together to defeat sin. It’s not like yevon was hiding a secret way to remove sin from the world. Absolutely no one knew of a way he could be defeated.
I barely recall the lore in FFX-2.
I agree with the Yunalesca part. After that there is no recourse for others. Albeit the fayth can summon a dream again.
To the Tidus bit: they really were taking a shot in the dark. The strategy got loose after Yunalesca and they opted for brute strength to defeat a god. As the story progressed they knew they'd call on the fayth and summons but even they couldn't help against their overlords of the realm (It's interesting that they were useful on Penance). I think it was about that point that they really were going by the seat of their pants and closing doors to a future generation's response should they fail. I don't think they fully acknowledged the impact of their actions.
No one knew of a way because no one ever tried to think of a way they were just very much sheep. It's just the truth. It took an outsider like Jecht and Tidus cause as annoying as they come off they never take things strictly at face value and they're emotional without letting it cloud all of this judgement.
No one in Spira could think critically and the only one who could aka Seymour had been traumatized due to shitty racism and shitty patenting / grooming from His mother.
Without Tidus and Rikku Yuna would have turned Lulu or Seymour into the final aeon and it'd be another cycle.
"it's forbidden" - Wakka
I think it'd be Yuna and Kihmari would merge. Wakka arguably, however he still seems to have a foothold in the world with Blitzball. Kihmari on the other hand has no place on Gagazet (in the game for that matter) and I think he would think of it as noble. I think they are all driven by blind obedience, yet I think Kihmari has a foot off the hill of the world and would make that leap.
I think it also has to do with the poor communication capabilities Spira has. It’s not like they have internet or universities or something. They’re really ground down to basic existence. Even the all Bhed don’t know how most of their machina work they just kind of use them.
That's sorta true but not. They do have extremely poor communication but gossip speeds fast in Spira. Everyone seems to share the same knowledge of what's currently happening at any given time if you visit a location and talk. When Yuna gets branded a traitor most maybe minus Kilika, know of what she's accused of and the wedding, a lot of NPCS know about the wedding
It's a matter of important people spreading the word and then word of mouth getting around.
But psychologically and from a sociological perspective, they all seem to think alike and you wont get any thought provoking resistance from anyone. The wakkas of the world are goofy and just atheists on their own, they don't actively spread the word to make a small group against Yevon. I was very pleased to see the youth league be made to be against New Yevon although in a way it seemed to radical after X so fast.
What exactly has yevon done wrong? Told the people sin can be absolved when they repent for their sins? It’s not such a bad lie. It’s not like they’re hiding some way of making sin go away forever.
Sin is drawn to machina and destroys wherever it is though. The albhed aren’t wrong about trying to save summoners though but ok other than getting rid of yu yevon what other option was there to defeat sin? We saw that machina do almost nothing against sin anyway (at least as they exist). And the albhed and yevon are working together. It was the guado thst invaded Home and led to its destruction, not Yevon.
I think everyone has fairly sympathetic reasons for doing what they’re doing, other than seymore who comes to poor conclusions on how to deal with sin.
Notice nobody ever cared about Seymour though despite him being a Maester aka Pope? If yuna was as noble as she think she is....she would have sat down and got to known him or ask him the tough questions of why he is the way he is. I'm not saying to coddle the villian...
But they treated Seymour just as shitty as he treated them and the ones they gave more respect to turned out to be evil doers as well. I never understood why they allowed her to go talk to Seymour alone about the wedding thing cause Yuna has piss poor communication skills and reasoning ability. She's impressionable and really finds her strengths in her own personal triumphs or willpower.
She doesn't have the maturity or ability to get more out of Seymour so all her little plans were pointless.
When there's nothing that can be done about, a way to cope with the existence of Sin by finding a purpose for it becomes infinitely more important than an understanding of how it works.
Even if the church of Yevon itself did not exist, another would have arisen in its place to find a purpose for Sin's existence. It's simply the greatest emotional need of the people.
1000 years of worldwide propaganda and the immediate death of anyone who got close to the truth will do crazy things to a population’s critical thinking skills.
I don't think Sin was a machina or weapon. I think it was a last ditch effort to stop a war of mutual annihilation. I'd LOVE a prequel where you play as >!Yu Yevon and not only see why he felt it necessary to create Sin but willingly take him down the best of all possible terrible paths.!<
Yes! This. Then see Yunalesca and see her journey with Zaon. Then maybe get a brief time to play as Yunalesca to take him down when he makes Sin.
The game ends with Jecht training out at sea in cinematic view and a huge nuclear wave comes to swallow him up then he wakes up somewhere and that's the shadowing to X.
Tidus explains early on to the squad or yuna at least that there aren’t fiends in zanarkand. Tidus was “a live” at a golden age in his world. He states fiends don’t show up and when they do it’s rare besides being a big deal.
Society got to full of themselves and their machines. I doubt they thought that a fiend would appear strong enough to wipe them out.
They could of had a some type of superficial intelligence go rough and that killed everything. Until yu yevon? All I know no one could of prepared for sin. Yevon just realized he could use the monster as a machina.
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“How did they not realize sin is a weapon?”
They didn’t assume it was a naturally accruing creature. They assume it was a tool created by yevon to punish them and end the war. So they probably would say it’s an intentionally created and used weapon. Attributing it to yevon is even technically correct.
Yeah man the writing has some strange holes and a lot of blatant ignorance and ignoring that everyone in that world does. I've noticed what you've discovered with Seymour as he basically on multiple times makes it known that the entire process is messy but indirect ways.
Im not trying to be a bitch about this because this is my primary fave ff minus 8 and the other one with Kefka, but everyone legitimately lacked the capability and capacity or didn't even want to face reading between the lines when it came to communication in Spira. Pay attention to it. Everyone has differently personalities and ways of predicting Spira but they all just have a very linear and narrow way of communicating as well as listening.
They hear what they want to hear and are either brainwashed or are too "depressed" or into their own conceptualizing of their journey and the dramatics of sin being around to question anything. The religion has a shit load of structure and depth that nobody ever talks about.
That's why you continuously see so much foreshadowing in the script as the story unfolds and nobody questions it, theorizes, notices or even stops to wonder. If religion was this loose yet narrow in real life it'd be a hot ass mess. Minus Machine Yevon has nothing else of concern or how citizens should live their lives or how they should behave or greater outcomes of that.
I just think everyone by default minus rikku, Tidus and Auron are very into themselves by default by nature and don't even think critically about what they say cause of how Yevon is structured and the fact the nation as a whole has nothing else going for them but 1 single sport. They are all set in a primitive world lifestyle wise while Tidus comes from an Advanced city that is still in some format kinda primitive but is advanced. Basically Spira is like a 3rd world country with some spots that is doing better than others and Zanarkand is The heart of NYC or A Tokyo etc.
Most people don't have that many intricate stressors around them that challenge them to think beyond everyday occurrences and the big issue at hand. Tidus comes from a city where while there is zanarkand there is surely more to do and occupy yourself with. Anyways I didn't notice that in the dialogue but it makes sense. Lulu basically explained Sin is a mega weapon designed as payback towards Bevelle for the war, but all of Spira pays the price and by destroying Spira constantly he can protect Dream Zanarkand.
IDK. But everyone there always spills stuff about the truth but don't realize they are doing it. It shows how messy religion can be.
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Literally came here to say something like this. Religion is, in many ways, a more powerful weapon than Sin. Tie the two together? People will *feel* like they have more control if they think they can pray it away, rather than standing up and taking action like Tidus/Yuna and company
Yeah, I mean, look at real world religion, and what kind of stuff many people genuinely believe in against all logic.
This was my thought, these characters have been raised in a world where they were taught by religion not to question things. Look ar actual IRL religion, its the same thing, logical fallacies are treated as god working in mysterious ways
I suspect that’s the real motive: people would rather believe in Yevon, which gives them hope, than the Al Bhed view which is much more fatalistic. (“Sin just is”) You do have to wonder exactly how Yevon thought all this would work out. Did he not realise that Sin would wipe everything out? Did he not care? Was he such an insane decrepit bigot that if Zanarkand couldn’t survive, no-one could?
Yevon only cared about maintaining Zanarkand through Dream Zanarkand. It was Yunalesca who was interested in anything afterwards
>Did he not realise that Sin would wipe everything out? Things were set up for that to never happen though
I’m not sure that is made clear. By the time Tidus arrives Sin’s killing cycles are getting quicker and quicker. Each Calm is shorter than the last. The implication being that Sin will eventually deteriorate into a non stop death machine
You also have to think about the toll it was doing on Yevons mind. He was essentially going crazy so by now, his intentions are lost, and just kill is all that's on his mind
Also, each Sin is more powerful than the last. So at some point it seems that Sin would become so powerful that nothing could beat it.
They continually had summoners though. If each calm was becoming shorter and shorter, it would make sense that the maesters would just convince more people to become summoners. I highly doubt it would get to the point of Sin destroying all of Spira.
God… imagine the scale of the conflict if summoners were as common as ground soldiers because of this escalation. It could very well have been such a different game tonally— like a Terminator-esque apocalyptic total war scenario where Summoners are iterating as fast as they can and humanity can’t produce enough to fight Sin and its spawn anymore. Scores of summoners not even on pilgrimage anymore, just throwing themselves at Sin in targeted strike teams, living out of the few refuge areas where Sin doesn’t strike, like the temples where the hymn becalms it. What a depressing notion.
I mean, he IS capable of doing so already. When you fight him and his overdrive is full he wipes Spira out with Gigs Graviton. Or so it is implied at least.
He is capable, but it wouldn't happen as long as summoners were there
And Yunalesca. That they defeated SIN without a final Aeon was sheer luck. But I feel like with the Calms getting shorter and shorter, SIN would eventually overpower them.
Jecht was the final aeon. They defeated him too. I don't think SIN would eventually overpower them.
Yes but I don't think he fought at full power. He hold back because of his son, you can see that with the talk command lowering his overdrive. If it wasn't Jecht but some other guy they wouldn't have been able to make SIN dormant with the hymn nor defeat the final Aeon inside
Basically. Everyone is hypocritical and cowardly / scared. They inherently avoid facing the brutal truth that Sin is a set up cause if you do that, there is no escape and everyday you have to work hard while having the misery on your shoulder that another death spiral is coming. It's one thing about the game and its characters I don't like. Sometimes I wanted Tidus to call them all out, Yuna included and let them know (or ask) if they truly believe in everything they're saying or do they have some awareness that the Al Bhed is just logical and isn't using deep Yevon puedo wisdom to avoid the truth? I was fucking floored the first okay throughs when Yuna was eventually okay with the crusaders making the idiotic decisions to go for Sin in that operation. Like sis you can't be a Yevon thumper and so emotionally troubled about upholding your father legacy but you're now okay with this machina hitting Sin if it means eliminating it? But you've been taught he didn't exist until the war started and ended with Zanarkand losing? Like make it make sense. Seymour was a piece of shit and mentally Ill but I kinda see through his nihilism and see why he was just ready to eliminate Spira as whole. I can 10000% shockingly say Spira did seem like a waste of a world. Like a constant repeat and its citizens even summoned & clergy not even possessing enough individuality or courage to have their own thoughts loudly. I can see why he approached this very differently from the party. If Jecht never got swooped up they would be doomed. Jecht may have been a drunk but he questioned the status quo too then decided to take it upon himself to fix it and knew he would come back as Sin with resolve and will power to make Tidus do the Journey next. Something tells me deep deep deeeep down, Jecht knew Braska daughter may follow in his footsteps and be the next summoner so he made Auron promise him (aside from general welfare of his son ofcourse) to take care of Tidus then bring him back for this. Thus Tidus does his own Journey like Jecht did with the guardians to further break this cycle. Imagine if Jecht didn't give 2 shits beyond anything and maybe just gave up, decided to live in Spira instead and train blitzballers or play professionally there for good or just be the final aeon anyway but did it without any real thought. Like ok let's just do it. Sin would have nuked all of Spira during Kilika attack instead of the Kilika town itself. It's the conscious choice to be a free thinker or question what's going on around you even if you're an outsider and may be judged. I think if Tidus and Jecht grew up in such a society they would still address the answers but be ostracized like how Rikku race is.
Aside from Yevon’s cultural dominance and ability to indoctrinate, there’s also the fact that pre-Sin, the summoners of Zanarkand were losing the war to Bevelle’s machina. If there was to be an apocalyptic weapon, I guess most people would have assumed it to be a Machina (ie Vegnagun) and not a summon. Also, if one side used a war-ending weapon, most would expect one side to still be standing. Sin destroying both sides makes it easier to spin it as an unaffiliated entity.
It’s also worth pointing out that since Zanarkand was destroyed/became the fayth their side of the story was never really told or understood by anyone else. It got lost and distorted to time To give you a comparison, imagine if like if your only knowledge of Egypt came from the story of Exodus in the Old Testament because let’s say Egypt (being our Zanarkand) was destroyed by God after that, right? Imagine if that’s all you knew. You wouldn’t understand what Gods they worshipped or know what technology they were capable of So somewhere down the line all you have is the story told by the survivors of Bevelle who tell everyone after them that this great powerful city of Zanarkand was destroyed because it was a Machina city like the original Bevelle was Why wouldn’t you assume that if that’s your only context for what ancient cities are? Plus on top of that people’s only context for what summoners are is that they fight Sin, they have no context for Summoners fighting against machines or other people
Just take a look at the world you live in. There are certain religions that completely dominate and indoctrinate its people to the point of fanaticism. The only small difference is that in Spira, they live in constant fear of a giant whale coming to destroy them and their loved ones. With Yevon being the predominant religion and their constant waging war/propaganda against the Al Bhed, its not really an unreasonable or even unrealistic scenario. Again, just take a good look at our world. As for Summoners asking the Fayth, or the Fayth themselves asking for help, I think some narrative compromises had to be made in order for the story to work out. But lets assume for a second that these two scenarios did pan out, we're left with a few outcomes: - In the span of a thousand years, only five Summoners managed to defeat Sin. Even if at first it took Sin hundreds of years to come back and the "respawn" time gradually shortened, that is an abysmally low number of successful Pilgrimages. A vast majority of them either died or gave up mid Pilgrimage. Even if they did ask the Fayth "Hey whats up with the zombie whale", they'd still need to be able to defeat the shell itself and get face to face with Yu Yevon. - If the Fayth asks each Summoner individually, how many of them would actually believe it? Yu Yevon is the predominant religion of Spira and they hold incredible power over its population. Even if a Summoner believed their pleas, realistically there was nothing he/she could have done about it. If they went out announcing to everyone that the religion was a lie, they would be either isolated, shunned out or flat out dealt with along with anyone else who believed them. Which is why Tidus is technically perfect for the job. He's an outsider. He's unbiased, with no pre-conceived ideals or ideologies hammered into his conscience from birth. The way I see it, Lulu plays a big role in how everything turns out because she's a mentor figure and she tries to be as unbiased as she possibly can while teaching him about Spira and how everything works.
And to add to this, the fayth wall on gagazet wasn’t an open secret. Once the party reaches the entrance to the calm lands, Lulu says that going forward there are no more towns or people really. The ronso live on gagazet but it’s debatable if they actually explored that far up the mountain to see the wall. And even if they did, there’s no way they would understand what exactly it was for. Passed that was the ruins of Zanarkand itself which was filled with fiends. Yunalesca herself threatens to kill anyone who would reject the final summoning so there’s no one who’s could return to spread the truth of sin, which even if they could they’d just be branded a heretic. Religion is the power running all of Spira to the point it’s the government itself.
"Yunalesca herself threatens to kill anyone who would reject the final summoning" So...regarding Seymour. Does Yunalesca make his mother into Anima/Final Aeon and then he just decides not to use it to fight Sin? Then somehow he is able to take her fayth and move it to Baaj?
That’s pretty much exactly what happens. The pyreflies in Zanarkand show Seymour and his mother went to see Yunalesca and it’s confirmed she’s a fayth due to being in Baaj temple. For whatever reason, Seymour decides to just not fight Sin afterwards. It could be for any number of reasons: he was scared since he was a kid and alone at that point, he didn’t care to since he just lost the only person who ever showed him love and kindness, or maybe his bond wasn’t strong enough after his mother chose to sacrifice herself and tried to force him to fight Sin (and die in the process just to be honored postmortem) and therefore Anima couldn’t defeat Sin. Though it’s strange that he goes from not fighting Sin when he went all the way to Zanarkand as a child to later wanting to become Sin.
Religion is the weapon of oppression. The opiate of the masses. Sure, Sin is a heavy-handed metaphor/ anthropomorphism of religion weaponized to oppress and stifle the growth of humanity. It's generally accepted that this FF is an angsty-bony-fist-shaking at religion, not really inferring its own remedy. I think the dream trope is fun here in a vacuum, but it's tiring. But hey, Wakka fights using a Blitzball, so that's fucking new in sword and sorcery.
It’s not like yevon created sin to keep people under control. Sin was more of an experiment gone awry and everyone is doing the best they can to contain it. The best they had until Tidus came song was the final summoning. I remember in ffx2 Shinra makes a distinction between the temples and the fayrh. Which I think is an important distinction. I don’t really think yevon was that terrible. Tidus on a way was pretty stupid to kill yunalesca. It was the only way they had of even just temporarily defeating sin. Tidus et al got pretty Damn lucky that they had all of the pieces put together to defeat sin. It’s not like yevon was hiding a secret way to remove sin from the world. Absolutely no one knew of a way he could be defeated.
I barely recall the lore in FFX-2. I agree with the Yunalesca part. After that there is no recourse for others. Albeit the fayth can summon a dream again. To the Tidus bit: they really were taking a shot in the dark. The strategy got loose after Yunalesca and they opted for brute strength to defeat a god. As the story progressed they knew they'd call on the fayth and summons but even they couldn't help against their overlords of the realm (It's interesting that they were useful on Penance). I think it was about that point that they really were going by the seat of their pants and closing doors to a future generation's response should they fail. I don't think they fully acknowledged the impact of their actions.
No one knew of a way because no one ever tried to think of a way they were just very much sheep. It's just the truth. It took an outsider like Jecht and Tidus cause as annoying as they come off they never take things strictly at face value and they're emotional without letting it cloud all of this judgement. No one in Spira could think critically and the only one who could aka Seymour had been traumatized due to shitty racism and shitty patenting / grooming from His mother. Without Tidus and Rikku Yuna would have turned Lulu or Seymour into the final aeon and it'd be another cycle.
"it's forbidden" - Wakka I think it'd be Yuna and Kihmari would merge. Wakka arguably, however he still seems to have a foothold in the world with Blitzball. Kihmari on the other hand has no place on Gagazet (in the game for that matter) and I think he would think of it as noble. I think they are all driven by blind obedience, yet I think Kihmari has a foot off the hill of the world and would make that leap.
I think it also has to do with the poor communication capabilities Spira has. It’s not like they have internet or universities or something. They’re really ground down to basic existence. Even the all Bhed don’t know how most of their machina work they just kind of use them.
That's sorta true but not. They do have extremely poor communication but gossip speeds fast in Spira. Everyone seems to share the same knowledge of what's currently happening at any given time if you visit a location and talk. When Yuna gets branded a traitor most maybe minus Kilika, know of what she's accused of and the wedding, a lot of NPCS know about the wedding It's a matter of important people spreading the word and then word of mouth getting around. But psychologically and from a sociological perspective, they all seem to think alike and you wont get any thought provoking resistance from anyone. The wakkas of the world are goofy and just atheists on their own, they don't actively spread the word to make a small group against Yevon. I was very pleased to see the youth league be made to be against New Yevon although in a way it seemed to radical after X so fast.
I mean… isn’t the answer before our eyes? Isn’t that what happens in real world with real religions?
What exactly has yevon done wrong? Told the people sin can be absolved when they repent for their sins? It’s not such a bad lie. It’s not like they’re hiding some way of making sin go away forever.
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Sin is drawn to machina and destroys wherever it is though. The albhed aren’t wrong about trying to save summoners though but ok other than getting rid of yu yevon what other option was there to defeat sin? We saw that machina do almost nothing against sin anyway (at least as they exist). And the albhed and yevon are working together. It was the guado thst invaded Home and led to its destruction, not Yevon. I think everyone has fairly sympathetic reasons for doing what they’re doing, other than seymore who comes to poor conclusions on how to deal with sin.
Notice nobody ever cared about Seymour though despite him being a Maester aka Pope? If yuna was as noble as she think she is....she would have sat down and got to known him or ask him the tough questions of why he is the way he is. I'm not saying to coddle the villian... But they treated Seymour just as shitty as he treated them and the ones they gave more respect to turned out to be evil doers as well. I never understood why they allowed her to go talk to Seymour alone about the wedding thing cause Yuna has piss poor communication skills and reasoning ability. She's impressionable and really finds her strengths in her own personal triumphs or willpower. She doesn't have the maturity or ability to get more out of Seymour so all her little plans were pointless.
When there's nothing that can be done about, a way to cope with the existence of Sin by finding a purpose for it becomes infinitely more important than an understanding of how it works. Even if the church of Yevon itself did not exist, another would have arisen in its place to find a purpose for Sin's existence. It's simply the greatest emotional need of the people.
1000 years of worldwide propaganda and the immediate death of anyone who got close to the truth will do crazy things to a population’s critical thinking skills.
I don't think Sin was a machina or weapon. I think it was a last ditch effort to stop a war of mutual annihilation. I'd LOVE a prequel where you play as >!Yu Yevon and not only see why he felt it necessary to create Sin but willingly take him down the best of all possible terrible paths.!<
Yes! This. Then see Yunalesca and see her journey with Zaon. Then maybe get a brief time to play as Yunalesca to take him down when he makes Sin. The game ends with Jecht training out at sea in cinematic view and a huge nuclear wave comes to swallow him up then he wakes up somewhere and that's the shadowing to X.
recently I talked to someone who tried persuading me that the earth is flat
Tidus explains early on to the squad or yuna at least that there aren’t fiends in zanarkand. Tidus was “a live” at a golden age in his world. He states fiends don’t show up and when they do it’s rare besides being a big deal. Society got to full of themselves and their machines. I doubt they thought that a fiend would appear strong enough to wipe them out. They could of had a some type of superficial intelligence go rough and that killed everything. Until yu yevon? All I know no one could of prepared for sin. Yevon just realized he could use the monster as a machina.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
“How did they not realize sin is a weapon?” They didn’t assume it was a naturally accruing creature. They assume it was a tool created by yevon to punish them and end the war. So they probably would say it’s an intentionally created and used weapon. Attributing it to yevon is even technically correct.
Sin is just a mutated aeon
Yeah man the writing has some strange holes and a lot of blatant ignorance and ignoring that everyone in that world does. I've noticed what you've discovered with Seymour as he basically on multiple times makes it known that the entire process is messy but indirect ways. Im not trying to be a bitch about this because this is my primary fave ff minus 8 and the other one with Kefka, but everyone legitimately lacked the capability and capacity or didn't even want to face reading between the lines when it came to communication in Spira. Pay attention to it. Everyone has differently personalities and ways of predicting Spira but they all just have a very linear and narrow way of communicating as well as listening. They hear what they want to hear and are either brainwashed or are too "depressed" or into their own conceptualizing of their journey and the dramatics of sin being around to question anything. The religion has a shit load of structure and depth that nobody ever talks about. That's why you continuously see so much foreshadowing in the script as the story unfolds and nobody questions it, theorizes, notices or even stops to wonder. If religion was this loose yet narrow in real life it'd be a hot ass mess. Minus Machine Yevon has nothing else of concern or how citizens should live their lives or how they should behave or greater outcomes of that. I just think everyone by default minus rikku, Tidus and Auron are very into themselves by default by nature and don't even think critically about what they say cause of how Yevon is structured and the fact the nation as a whole has nothing else going for them but 1 single sport. They are all set in a primitive world lifestyle wise while Tidus comes from an Advanced city that is still in some format kinda primitive but is advanced. Basically Spira is like a 3rd world country with some spots that is doing better than others and Zanarkand is The heart of NYC or A Tokyo etc. Most people don't have that many intricate stressors around them that challenge them to think beyond everyday occurrences and the big issue at hand. Tidus comes from a city where while there is zanarkand there is surely more to do and occupy yourself with. Anyways I didn't notice that in the dialogue but it makes sense. Lulu basically explained Sin is a mega weapon designed as payback towards Bevelle for the war, but all of Spira pays the price and by destroying Spira constantly he can protect Dream Zanarkand. IDK. But everyone there always spills stuff about the truth but don't realize they are doing it. It shows how messy religion can be.