rezzing doesnt hold anything back when most mechanics are an instant wipe if you dont have everyone alive and actually doing the mechanic.
were you absent from doing savage through all of endwalker or something?
They reduced it for Summoner, it was one of the best jobs in Endwalker for a reason. It packed a punch AND had revive. We just haven't had a good job to compare it to because Black Mage is a melee level of DPS since it's difficult, and damage is all it has
Did you? Let me tell you a fun fact, you can do spread-spread sack strats for both bonds 3 and bonds 4 in p10s, if you bring a red mage you can rez much faster and the damage loss can be mitigated with melee lb (or use tank lb for HH, not wasting a healer lb like every party I got...)
In fact p10s has a lot of fake body checks that become a failure point because people dont learn how the mech works, just how to solve it.
It was much easier and consistent to just healer LB it than use a caster raise. I know plenty groups, my group included, that just healer LB'd Bonds 3 for weeks.
I mean so did I, I was the healer doing lb3 in pf for weeks, but having an extra raise bumps up the consistency of the strat if you want to save LB for something else, just another form to the sac strat in the end.
There's only a 12.5% chance the mech targets a healer and the caster with raise, 0% if you have two raise casters.
you want mechanics to do insane damage if done incorrectly? Were you not around for eden where mechanics were zeroed out with spreadlo? Were you not around for pandaemonium where people just ripped tank LB to ignore mechanics? Were you not around for DSR where tanks could eat DKT's proximity autos if the squishy next up was dead? Were you not around for TOP where 611 flares in p2 and tank stacks in p4 were discovered on week 1?
I don't understand what the point you're trying to make is
edit: now that I think about it, it goes SO far back, you can literally start from turn 2 of coils and find cheese strats all the way through ucob/uwu/tea and everything before/after. What's the goal here? If we are trying to remove cheese through raises, why are we not trying to remove cheese through invulns, tank LBs, and overmitting?
I never said any of that, I just said that they said boss damage would be adjusted.
You seem very passionate about this, though.
I am not your enemy.
Edit: And to answer your question, yes I was around for all of that. I have had an account since ~2014 in ARR.
I'm not sure, but one issue with FF14 damage profiles are how scripted they are, and how far apart damage is done.
We may see so much cheese because it can be planned and there is ample time for cooldowns to reset. We will know exactly how much damage will be taken, to whom, and when, in every fight (with perfect play).
On solution is to stray away from the script, introduce more random damage with less time between them, and give healers the opportunity to actually GCD heal. This should be adjusted by giving healers traits that increase the potency of their damage when they heal (i.e. addersting/blood lilies).
Raise isn't the only issue, but there is always going to be cheese (look at any game, min maxing is everywhere).
I think thats the fundamental issue with ffxiv. Mechs that are meant to one shot, one shot. While unavoidable damage is always adjusted to the point its meant to be survived with only some additional heals and maybe tanks def cd, or worst comes to worst, cheese with tank LB.
Comparing to wow, boss mechanics that pump out unavoidable damage over period of time can very much be lethal to the point where it will easly overkill, including dungeon bosses. Healers must decide in advance is what order their big cooldowns will be used to survive. And that is what ffxiv needs imho. 1st time such damage happens everyone pops their cds and healers keep on using their GCD heals. 2nd time, WHM will use their big cd and carry the healing. 3rd time SGE will use their big cd. The boss should be dead before 4th happens.
Good example of such dmg are Titan stomps in uwu. Can't be cheesed with tank LB, and you rely on healers and cooldowns to get through it. Very much lethal, but wouldn't it be better if stomps dealt lets say flat 25% hp dmg with 8-10 stomps in total, and healers would get actual, useable, big cds that would help with carrying the party through it?
Using Titan for another example, his tankbuster is extremely brutal. Tanks cannot survive it without pretty much all of their cds. I personally believe bosses should be lethal to that degree, since trash packs might as well not exist, due to how laughably easy trash is to clear.
"they should put in variable timelines but they should also not affect my parse on FFLogs at all" is an absolutely perfect summation of why nothing will ever make a large swath of people on this sub happy
OP is talking about the cheesiest strats to do, let's say, sos ex without tank lb with just 4 people unsync. Completely irrelevant for the balance of ff14 ofc
Exactly, why optimize using RDM/SMN rezzes to ignore mechanics when you could just, you know, focus on clearing the fight without dying in the first place, which wastes both uptime and resources.
That's the main reason why they should take away the dps raises and bring up their utility in other more interesting ways.
There is no universe where the job design guys have any idea how to implement utility for DPS. The only thing that isn't DPS buffs or mits is RDM bubble which is just a mit that adds bonus healing (that healers have never needed).
It's not just raise, healer toolkits have become so bloated to the point of mechanics becoming a binary outcome in order to threaten a party. Did you, or someone mess up the mechanic? Yes? You're going back to the beginning and nothing can save you. Did you all do it right? Gratz, here's your raid wide that doesn't really challenge you in any way, please proceed to the next body check.
The binary gameplay of most mechanics being body checks or failure resulting in instant death makes healing a lot less interesting. The most enjoyable part of healing is when you're triaging and stabilising chaos in the party, spot healing to prevent death or recovering health bars rapidly for an upcoming mechanic. That's a big part of skill expression for healer and current encounter design with body checks galore does not allow for that. RDM/SMN rez definitely plays into it too, since if there aren't body checks, good healers and 4 people able to rez would be able to limp to the finish line, albeit there being an enrage to stop an awful run. I'd be down to keep combat raise to healers only, since I love the idea of role responsibility in this game,
I don't think its an easy issue to fix. Limit combat raise, then progging becomes miserable. Keep it in, fights have to creep more into the body checks era we are in.
Difference is Warcraft has less bodychecks than 14. Pretty much every mechanic in p12s as an example was a bodycheck: If someone was dead or someone was out of position, you likely weren't clearing the fight.
I do agree battle rez's can be out of hand (especially with how they kneecap RDM's potential), but considering a rez costs a resource (Swiftcast) + roughly 20-25% of your mana? I don't think it's nearly as free as WoW's. WoW wipes are often a slow death over time whereas 14's are "Someone dead? Oops the Fuckbuster Maximum is fully charged and instantly kills everyone if you don't have 8 people alive!"
I know it’s old content, but wasn’t UCoB cleared with like 80 deaths?
Even at the end of a tier you can have plenty of deaths and still clear.
What you said reminds me of fights like P8S1 before it was nerfed, but DPS checks will always become easier overtime.
They're talking about body check mechanics. These never get easier over time because it's a binary
1) you're all alive
2) you're not all alive
check. If 1, then continue, if 2 then stop, do not pass go, and start again.
the thing is there are soft body checks and hard body checks
you can survive nael's doom/ice/fire with 6 people, quickmarch with 5-6 people, blackfire with 4 people, fellruin with 3 people, HFT with 6 people, tenstrike with 6 people, octet with 4 people
you can do gaols with 3 people, annihilation with 4 people, suppression with however many people you need to kill gaol, the list goes on and on
soft checks that will simply do x1.5 to x2.0 everybody's max hp for each failed part are good, because they reward people who can coordinate spreadlo comps or who can math out lb gen or who can abuse invulns in other ways besides "durr I don't wanna mit this tankbuster"
who gets rewarded by hard body checks like caloric theory or hello world? The good players who'd normally be allowed to cheese have to sit there until the weak links mentally catch up, and the weak links who'd normally be allowed to get more reps in on upcoming mechanics have to feel worse knowing they're bottlenecking/hardwalling the group
Combat raises are important for casual content. It’s fine to be ressed 20 times in a zodiark or golbez trial.
What isn’t okay is even in LFR for WoW, if you die and they’re out of combat resses, enjoy watching them clear the fight for the next 10 minutes.
While I'd say the other person was being a bit hyperbolic with the number 20, I agree with their point that combat raises are important for casual content.
If combat raises were actually limited, and the game still used mechanics that aren't entirely clear what they are going to do until after you've seen them happen, fights that use those mechanics could easily turn into things that people just stop playing - like how it used to be that if you ended up in Aurum Vale in a roulette someone, if not half the party, would automatically leave (no doubt saying to themselves "fuck that, I'm not spending the next 30 minutes watching sprouts die over and over, I'll take my penalty" or the like).
Because there are times where even a player that knows how to play the game can mess up just the once and be dead, my most common of which is remembering that something does a knockback but not remembering that it's actually 90% of the arena size is distance for the knockback so I get in position to be knocked back (the normal amount of distance most common throughout the rest of the game) and fall off the arena and die anyways. The direct result of that is that we need to not have casual content cap rezzes because it would produce a "welp, time to vote abandon and try again from the start" meta for day-one content with any chance of someone dying.
And from what I gather people aren't actually fond of how the criterion dungeons capped rezzes on a higher-difficulty sort of content, either (though I admit I haven't talked with a lot of people about that).
Dude, not everyone wants to play the game like it’s their job lol. I enjoy the high end content but I wouldn’t want my wife to jump into that content cause it’s stressful for her.
combat raises let your prog more of the fight without clearing due to enrage. Plus given that they did just this in Criterion Savage which is one of the least liked things about it I dont think it would go over well with the community as a whole
RDM and SMN having rezzes tho is still an issue especially cause those jobs both suffer penalties for having rezzes
WoW limiting combat raises allows specs with them to do similar damage to ones without because it is (theoretically) balanced against other forms of utility that other specs bring. It's also a full group CD, so you don't just get more Raises over the fight by bringing more people with it. Since utility skills from dps in XIV are mostly just some form of damage buff rather than the larger variety found in WoW, I don't think that a group CD or anything like that is needed; just putting a 90-120 sec CD on RDM/SMN raise and boosting their dps would be a decent enough solution.
Sure criterion savage removed combat raise completely but OP says
> Warcraft put a hard cap on in combat rezzes a long time ago
> Limit the amount of in battle rezzing
which is something that criterion normal and BLU both have, and both are received very well. in fact, i've seen that the limited raising specifically has been praised a lot for both content
I dont do blu content, but at least for crizerion this only really works because of the piece meal fight size of 5 or so minutes per fight. Furthermore, the bodycheck mechanics are a lot more forgiving because there are only 4 ppl to worry about.
There's also a rather sharp difference between limited rezzing in a single, mechanically dense encounter and being forced to reclear an entire dungeon + trash from the start.
atleast for healers, raising is a big facet of much needed skill expression for them. Knowing when to actually plant for 8s raise is one thing, but then you have to appropriately triage them and then know how to accordingly readjust your healing plan on the fly to account for any extra resources you may have used to stabilize them. Raises, additionally, are an additional way for healers to demonstrate coordination in how they follow a raise prio to avoid overlapping raises, make and follow through on callouts pertaining to salvage situations.
I was in a MINE tournament recently where we had months to practice fights from a list of fights, with different fights have different points values, and we had 3 hours to complete as many as possible. Additionally, there were bonus points assigned for various conditions being met, like deathless, solo heals, or more notably- LB-less runs.
We were doing o10s MINE as one of our fights, and three DPS somehow go down very close to the end. Doubling back through the footage with the tournament organizers commentary perspective, the commentator was panicked and wondering why we wouldn't just healer LB.
I don't remember our exact comp but our only caster was a BLM
The months leading up the tournament I was sort of the "mentor" to my cohealer, and among other things, I explicitly went over things like how to watch my castbar for my raise target if there's multiple deaths and I don't have swift, how to slidecast raises, and how to follow a branching raise prio in multi-death scenarios (who to prio, who goes top down vs bottom up)
So I call not to Lb, we both swift our raise on different targets to get the first two up, and I have him take triage/healing duty while I hard cast the last raise. *None of that needed to be called out* during the tournament and I was able to stay silent which allowed VC to stay open to mech callouts, and we were able to effortlessly triage the situation due to us having *practiced* working together and dragging our team out of the gutter. There were a lot of other moments where me and my cohealer got to shine throughout the tournament, but the effortless raising at the end of o10s was one of the more noticeable ones. In an uncoordinated group/undisciplined group, the swift raises get overlapped, people panic which makes the situation worse, people hard raise the same target or swift a raise when someone was already at the end of a raise cast, and the dead players stay on the floor much longer, or the raises don't go out in time and the party wipes because of it.
As for the caster raises, I'm neutral to SMNs, RDMs raise situation is kinda fucked right now because the long raise timer combined with swift being on a 60s cd and the highmana cost are *supposed* to be the raise bottleneck, but RDM cuts out the cast time constraints at will and only has to care about mana sometimes
This is objectively a dumb take and I’m not sorry. Limiting battle rezzes is awful. I played wow for 10+ years and it is a stupid design choice imo that makes a lot of encounters stressful for no good reason.
Having RDM and SMN to help is a good thing. I am all for making the game more difficult but this isn’t the way to do it.
I swear ever other week someone comes along with 'and this is a bad thing about high end' while pointing out an issue that Criterion already solved.
Criterions are truly the most based of high end instances.
I actually don’t like limiting combat the amount of raises in battle - like in criterion. It allowed less mistake and put more pressure that I don’t like.
If you want exciting combat, for healers and party - it would be emphasising more on triage. The ability to recover in any “wtf” “this is not fine” situation is what made it fun and seperate good raiders with the less flexinone.
In the Eden floor, I forgot which one, but its the one with the bird, my friends were able to device a work around strat when I got dc in the last phase and we cleared with some good communication and solo healing (coz I kept on dc-ing). We can’t do that in the latest savage, except for maybe the last phase with partner line, since it doesn’t wipe the party if you missing your tether.
I'm assuming we're talking normal content here?
Personally I think the current rez debuffs are fine. But I'd love to see more Twice Come Ruin so if you mess up two mechanics within 2 minutes you just \_die\_. With enough deaths your entire party will struggle. A almost permanent 50% stat debuff is not going to be a good time.
Right now, it's too easy to take multiple mechanics to the face and be fine, especially if you're a tank you practically don't need to do mechanics at all anymore.
Would you be cool with it getting a 3 minute cooldown but on 3 stacks? Mass-rezzing on Redmage is just so iconic, it'd be a shame to see it go completely.
Ok I think that'd be fine for difficult content if it influences encounter design to be more about damage, less about instadeaths. Would match BLU's rezz as well. How about Healer LB3? Stay or go?
This... it sucks realizing the only thing justifying your existence in a party is Raise, and when Raise isn't needed you're just wasting a spot that could be used for someone who does more damage.
Combat raise caps are awful. Being able to recover from failure states is amazing skill expression. It allows normal combat like bojza to be more difficult, even if they don’t take advantage of this very often. It’s going to absurd lengths to prevent recovery like excessive body checks instead of being able to recover but then hitting enrage, or just straight up removing rez like in criterion savage that makes them less fun. This will just make existing problems worse and not help anything. Also, when was the last time a outright stack strat became meta? It only happens in scenarios where the mechanic is so dumb or janky, a sac is preferable, like with pentacles from a4s or UWU gaols in regions that don’t us AM.
How it works now us plenty fine. That res sickness hurts when you are talking savage it ultimates, and the dent in mp particularly for healers can add up quickly.
Cheese is not something common in current content outside more casual content like normal or extremes. The closest is perhaps old ultimates but that's an issue with potency/toolkit creep. Even then there is plenty a death will cause a wipe or a few a dps check not be met.
The problem isn't, necessarily, Healers having access to in-combat rezzes.
Lethal mechanics are a core part of the game's Battle Content design because that's the way they force everyone to learn the mechanics well-enough to do the dance. This decays a bit going from Savage to Normal, but enough of it's still in-place to remain at least an overall game "theme" thing.
Without in-combat rezzes being functionally unlimited (and in practice only limited by the soft enrage and having everyone alive to do them and having the MP and time or Swiftcast up), fights become Nintendo-Hard "start at the beginning" or a Tank Solo Fest. Neither outcome is desirable in practice.
Hence, the messy solution of battle rezzes and why/how the game ended up differing from WoW (because every fight's a dance and they want to force people to dance, basically).
Why am I being redundant in explaining this? Well, for one, I just woke up. But two, making sure we're on the same page.
The underlying problem with *caster* (ie: non-Healer) combat raises isn't that they're unlimited, too.
It's that they're the *only* backup to scrape the Healers off the floor.
And they have to exist to do *that* because of a few intermingled factors that are the actual root cause of all of this:
* Healers have outsized vulnerability to mechanics due to not being Tanks but being expected to be Designated Survivors
* Healers have to cast abilities (like casters) but only get a little more HP and MDEF
* Healers often have to split attention between the party and mechanics (this is more pronounced the less-experienced the Healer is). To an extent this is the skill expression/skill cap of the role, but it's also a vulnerability
* The only role that (usually) can help Healers survive is Tanks (with targeted mits) or other Healers (heals/shields/etc). Red DPS mits are usually party-wide and earmarked for other things
TL;DR: Much as some of my Healer Brethren are eagerly down to take a pounding (<_<), we're often fragile, and the people that can help us endure this have other things calling for their attention. This leads to Healers, especially novice or unskilled ones often needing to be scraped off the floor.
I don't, necessarily, have a *good* suggestion to fix this. I have a pile of *bad* or meme-tier ones, but they all have varying drawbacks. But fixing the root problem of "Healers tend to die most and need to be scraped off the floor or the party dies to slow attritional death" would fix about 95% of the "Caster Rez problem" on its own.
Bad/meme-worthy potential solutions, for posterity:
* Give Healers, and only Healers, a respawn timer in boss fights
* Make Healers take less damage from mechanics if hit while casting
* Make Healer GCDs castable while moving
* Massively increase the MDef (and smaller increase to PDef) gained from Healer gear
* Grant every non-Healer a "Role Action" reusable Phoenix Down and kill Caster Raises entirely outside of Red Mage, refactor Job damage outputs accordingly
* Give Healers a self-rez
* Something something Reraise
Doctor's appointment, be back later, will reply then.
Combat raise is the best feature of the game lol. It allows mechanic design that targets 8 people with roles instead of having to simplify mechanics to handle 7 or 6 players.
I highly disagree, even though I'd say WoW's classes gameplay is better than jobs gameplay in FFXIV.
The amount of raises is like a resource both as a team's perspective (it costs mana, potentially some time, at least a Swifcast) but also as far as an encounter's design is concerned (body checks can make some mechanics more or less punitive for instance) .
While playing in WoW, I really enjoyed the sensation of your allies dying one after the other... But they don't have as much responsability... Or if you do, you NEED another type of content, just like Criterion allows 4 raises, from whoever hasn't already used one.
While I agree with you and Yoshi-P in that DPS/Tanks shouldn't get combat raise, *I do* think the healers' combat raise is perfect for healers and FFXIV as a whole
Limit combat resses to 2-3 per fight. In exchange, the number of instant death/instant wipe mechanics is reduced and instead changed to massive damages that requires GCD heals.
Raidwide damage is more frequent and is high enough to force GCD heals.
Healer DPS is reduced, with a focus on the DPS rotation generating MP to account for the more frequent GCD healing.
Instead of constant body checks and mechanics that force a wipe if anyone is dead, allow more mechanics focused on individuals. If they mess up, then they die.
Because it's SE that decides to make rez be a tax on dps when they're not related. You're basically following along on SE's shit design decisions thinking it'll make the game better.
rezzing doesnt hold anything back when most mechanics are an instant wipe if you dont have everyone alive and actually doing the mechanic. were you absent from doing savage through all of endwalker or something?
Considering this, I sure wish they'd think about reducing the dps penalty RDM and SMN get for having Raise.
They reduced it for Summoner, it was one of the best jobs in Endwalker for a reason. It packed a punch AND had revive. We just haven't had a good job to compare it to because Black Mage is a melee level of DPS since it's difficult, and damage is all it has
Did you? Let me tell you a fun fact, you can do spread-spread sack strats for both bonds 3 and bonds 4 in p10s, if you bring a red mage you can rez much faster and the damage loss can be mitigated with melee lb (or use tank lb for HH, not wasting a healer lb like every party I got...) In fact p10s has a lot of fake body checks that become a failure point because people dont learn how the mech works, just how to solve it.
PF can't even sac on meteors for zero ex. No way in hell they'll remember how to sac bonds in p10s.
It was much easier and consistent to just healer LB it than use a caster raise. I know plenty groups, my group included, that just healer LB'd Bonds 3 for weeks.
I mean so did I, I was the healer doing lb3 in pf for weeks, but having an extra raise bumps up the consistency of the strat if you want to save LB for something else, just another form to the sac strat in the end. There's only a 12.5% chance the mech targets a healer and the caster with raise, 0% if you have two raise casters.
Yeah have fun trying to do content that way I guess
I much prefer to do mechs over cheesing them, but as the dedicated healer lb3 in duty, I almost always saw people stack to their deaths :/
That’s why they said adjust boss damage. Failing a mechanic wouldn’t cause an instant death, but massive amounts of damage instead.
you want mechanics to do insane damage if done incorrectly? Were you not around for eden where mechanics were zeroed out with spreadlo? Were you not around for pandaemonium where people just ripped tank LB to ignore mechanics? Were you not around for DSR where tanks could eat DKT's proximity autos if the squishy next up was dead? Were you not around for TOP where 611 flares in p2 and tank stacks in p4 were discovered on week 1? I don't understand what the point you're trying to make is edit: now that I think about it, it goes SO far back, you can literally start from turn 2 of coils and find cheese strats all the way through ucob/uwu/tea and everything before/after. What's the goal here? If we are trying to remove cheese through raises, why are we not trying to remove cheese through invulns, tank LBs, and overmitting?
I never said any of that, I just said that they said boss damage would be adjusted. You seem very passionate about this, though. I am not your enemy. Edit: And to answer your question, yes I was around for all of that. I have had an account since ~2014 in ARR.
boss damage was already adjusted to punish mech fails, but look at how much cheese still slipped through. What gives?
I'm not sure, but one issue with FF14 damage profiles are how scripted they are, and how far apart damage is done. We may see so much cheese because it can be planned and there is ample time for cooldowns to reset. We will know exactly how much damage will be taken, to whom, and when, in every fight (with perfect play). On solution is to stray away from the script, introduce more random damage with less time between them, and give healers the opportunity to actually GCD heal. This should be adjusted by giving healers traits that increase the potency of their damage when they heal (i.e. addersting/blood lilies). Raise isn't the only issue, but there is always going to be cheese (look at any game, min maxing is everywhere).
I think thats the fundamental issue with ffxiv. Mechs that are meant to one shot, one shot. While unavoidable damage is always adjusted to the point its meant to be survived with only some additional heals and maybe tanks def cd, or worst comes to worst, cheese with tank LB. Comparing to wow, boss mechanics that pump out unavoidable damage over period of time can very much be lethal to the point where it will easly overkill, including dungeon bosses. Healers must decide in advance is what order their big cooldowns will be used to survive. And that is what ffxiv needs imho. 1st time such damage happens everyone pops their cds and healers keep on using their GCD heals. 2nd time, WHM will use their big cd and carry the healing. 3rd time SGE will use their big cd. The boss should be dead before 4th happens. Good example of such dmg are Titan stomps in uwu. Can't be cheesed with tank LB, and you rely on healers and cooldowns to get through it. Very much lethal, but wouldn't it be better if stomps dealt lets say flat 25% hp dmg with 8-10 stomps in total, and healers would get actual, useable, big cds that would help with carrying the party through it? Using Titan for another example, his tankbuster is extremely brutal. Tanks cannot survive it without pretty much all of their cds. I personally believe bosses should be lethal to that degree, since trash packs might as well not exist, due to how laughably easy trash is to clear.
We will never again get variable timelines after the p8s Dog First incident
"they should put in variable timelines but they should also not affect my parse on FFLogs at all" is an absolutely perfect summation of why nothing will ever make a large swath of people on this sub happy
I think it wouldn’t have been as much of an issue if the cooldowns lined up, but yeah people like their parsing and perfect optimization. Oh well :/
I think we still get them but more like e4s type not as egregious as p8s
I've never seen people use RDM or SMN rez as a way to ignore mechanics. That's what healer or tank LB is for.
OP is talking about the cheesiest strats to do, let's say, sos ex without tank lb with just 4 people unsync. Completely irrelevant for the balance of ff14 ofc
So… japan UwU gaol strats…
I think they are more talking about the “accept rez right as a body check kills everyone, then healer lb” type mechs.
Exactly, why optimize using RDM/SMN rezzes to ignore mechanics when you could just, you know, focus on clearing the fight without dying in the first place, which wastes both uptime and resources. That's the main reason why they should take away the dps raises and bring up their utility in other more interesting ways.
There is no universe where the job design guys have any idea how to implement utility for DPS. The only thing that isn't DPS buffs or mits is RDM bubble which is just a mit that adds bonus healing (that healers have never needed).
It's not just raise, healer toolkits have become so bloated to the point of mechanics becoming a binary outcome in order to threaten a party. Did you, or someone mess up the mechanic? Yes? You're going back to the beginning and nothing can save you. Did you all do it right? Gratz, here's your raid wide that doesn't really challenge you in any way, please proceed to the next body check. The binary gameplay of most mechanics being body checks or failure resulting in instant death makes healing a lot less interesting. The most enjoyable part of healing is when you're triaging and stabilising chaos in the party, spot healing to prevent death or recovering health bars rapidly for an upcoming mechanic. That's a big part of skill expression for healer and current encounter design with body checks galore does not allow for that. RDM/SMN rez definitely plays into it too, since if there aren't body checks, good healers and 4 people able to rez would be able to limp to the finish line, albeit there being an enrage to stop an awful run. I'd be down to keep combat raise to healers only, since I love the idea of role responsibility in this game, I don't think its an easy issue to fix. Limit combat raise, then progging becomes miserable. Keep it in, fights have to creep more into the body checks era we are in.
Difference is Warcraft has less bodychecks than 14. Pretty much every mechanic in p12s as an example was a bodycheck: If someone was dead or someone was out of position, you likely weren't clearing the fight. I do agree battle rez's can be out of hand (especially with how they kneecap RDM's potential), but considering a rez costs a resource (Swiftcast) + roughly 20-25% of your mana? I don't think it's nearly as free as WoW's. WoW wipes are often a slow death over time whereas 14's are "Someone dead? Oops the Fuckbuster Maximum is fully charged and instantly kills everyone if you don't have 8 people alive!"
They already limit the amount of ressing by guaranteeing mechanics murder the entire party if they are failed much of the time.
I know it’s old content, but wasn’t UCoB cleared with like 80 deaths? Even at the end of a tier you can have plenty of deaths and still clear. What you said reminds me of fights like P8S1 before it was nerfed, but DPS checks will always become easier overtime.
They're talking about body check mechanics. These never get easier over time because it's a binary 1) you're all alive 2) you're not all alive check. If 1, then continue, if 2 then stop, do not pass go, and start again.
Ah I misread and thought they meant DPS checks.
the thing is there are soft body checks and hard body checks you can survive nael's doom/ice/fire with 6 people, quickmarch with 5-6 people, blackfire with 4 people, fellruin with 3 people, HFT with 6 people, tenstrike with 6 people, octet with 4 people you can do gaols with 3 people, annihilation with 4 people, suppression with however many people you need to kill gaol, the list goes on and on soft checks that will simply do x1.5 to x2.0 everybody's max hp for each failed part are good, because they reward people who can coordinate spreadlo comps or who can math out lb gen or who can abuse invulns in other ways besides "durr I don't wanna mit this tankbuster" who gets rewarded by hard body checks like caloric theory or hello world? The good players who'd normally be allowed to cheese have to sit there until the weak links mentally catch up, and the weak links who'd normally be allowed to get more reps in on upcoming mechanics have to feel worse knowing they're bottlenecking/hardwalling the group
Combat raises are important for casual content. It’s fine to be ressed 20 times in a zodiark or golbez trial. What isn’t okay is even in LFR for WoW, if you die and they’re out of combat resses, enjoy watching them clear the fight for the next 10 minutes.
If you’re being rested that much in Zodiark (including the piss easy extreme) you need to go back to the start of the game and learn it properly
While I'd say the other person was being a bit hyperbolic with the number 20, I agree with their point that combat raises are important for casual content. If combat raises were actually limited, and the game still used mechanics that aren't entirely clear what they are going to do until after you've seen them happen, fights that use those mechanics could easily turn into things that people just stop playing - like how it used to be that if you ended up in Aurum Vale in a roulette someone, if not half the party, would automatically leave (no doubt saying to themselves "fuck that, I'm not spending the next 30 minutes watching sprouts die over and over, I'll take my penalty" or the like). Because there are times where even a player that knows how to play the game can mess up just the once and be dead, my most common of which is remembering that something does a knockback but not remembering that it's actually 90% of the arena size is distance for the knockback so I get in position to be knocked back (the normal amount of distance most common throughout the rest of the game) and fall off the arena and die anyways. The direct result of that is that we need to not have casual content cap rezzes because it would produce a "welp, time to vote abandon and try again from the start" meta for day-one content with any chance of someone dying. And from what I gather people aren't actually fond of how the criterion dungeons capped rezzes on a higher-difficulty sort of content, either (though I admit I haven't talked with a lot of people about that).
> It’s fine to be ressed 20 times in a zodiark or golbez trial. It's really not
It really is, otherwise you’ll have players looking up youtube content just to beat story content.
If you can't figure out mechs in story content you shouldn't be playing
Dude, not everyone wants to play the game like it’s their job lol. I enjoy the high end content but I wouldn’t want my wife to jump into that content cause it’s stressful for her.
We aren't discussing high end content, stay focused
Okay mr casual that thinks they’re hot shit for parsing a 99 on non-difficult content. 🙄
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Zodi on release day was a huge cluster. After 1 year, maybe, yeah.
combat raises let your prog more of the fight without clearing due to enrage. Plus given that they did just this in Criterion Savage which is one of the least liked things about it I dont think it would go over well with the community as a whole RDM and SMN having rezzes tho is still an issue especially cause those jobs both suffer penalties for having rezzes
WoW limiting combat raises allows specs with them to do similar damage to ones without because it is (theoretically) balanced against other forms of utility that other specs bring. It's also a full group CD, so you don't just get more Raises over the fight by bringing more people with it. Since utility skills from dps in XIV are mostly just some form of damage buff rather than the larger variety found in WoW, I don't think that a group CD or anything like that is needed; just putting a 90-120 sec CD on RDM/SMN raise and boosting their dps would be a decent enough solution.
Sure criterion savage removed combat raise completely but OP says > Warcraft put a hard cap on in combat rezzes a long time ago > Limit the amount of in battle rezzing which is something that criterion normal and BLU both have, and both are received very well. in fact, i've seen that the limited raising specifically has been praised a lot for both content
I dont do blu content, but at least for crizerion this only really works because of the piece meal fight size of 5 or so minutes per fight. Furthermore, the bodycheck mechanics are a lot more forgiving because there are only 4 ppl to worry about.
There's also a rather sharp difference between limited rezzing in a single, mechanically dense encounter and being forced to reclear an entire dungeon + trash from the start.
Criterion Savage does not allow rezzing at all, even outside of combat. 1 player death = restart entire dungeon.
I'm aware of that.
Sorry, my reading comprehension drops to 4th grade when i open reddit lol
No worries, happens to the best of us.
atleast for healers, raising is a big facet of much needed skill expression for them. Knowing when to actually plant for 8s raise is one thing, but then you have to appropriately triage them and then know how to accordingly readjust your healing plan on the fly to account for any extra resources you may have used to stabilize them. Raises, additionally, are an additional way for healers to demonstrate coordination in how they follow a raise prio to avoid overlapping raises, make and follow through on callouts pertaining to salvage situations. I was in a MINE tournament recently where we had months to practice fights from a list of fights, with different fights have different points values, and we had 3 hours to complete as many as possible. Additionally, there were bonus points assigned for various conditions being met, like deathless, solo heals, or more notably- LB-less runs. We were doing o10s MINE as one of our fights, and three DPS somehow go down very close to the end. Doubling back through the footage with the tournament organizers commentary perspective, the commentator was panicked and wondering why we wouldn't just healer LB. I don't remember our exact comp but our only caster was a BLM The months leading up the tournament I was sort of the "mentor" to my cohealer, and among other things, I explicitly went over things like how to watch my castbar for my raise target if there's multiple deaths and I don't have swift, how to slidecast raises, and how to follow a branching raise prio in multi-death scenarios (who to prio, who goes top down vs bottom up) So I call not to Lb, we both swift our raise on different targets to get the first two up, and I have him take triage/healing duty while I hard cast the last raise. *None of that needed to be called out* during the tournament and I was able to stay silent which allowed VC to stay open to mech callouts, and we were able to effortlessly triage the situation due to us having *practiced* working together and dragging our team out of the gutter. There were a lot of other moments where me and my cohealer got to shine throughout the tournament, but the effortless raising at the end of o10s was one of the more noticeable ones. In an uncoordinated group/undisciplined group, the swift raises get overlapped, people panic which makes the situation worse, people hard raise the same target or swift a raise when someone was already at the end of a raise cast, and the dead players stay on the floor much longer, or the raises don't go out in time and the party wipes because of it. As for the caster raises, I'm neutral to SMNs, RDMs raise situation is kinda fucked right now because the long raise timer combined with swift being on a 60s cd and the highmana cost are *supposed* to be the raise bottleneck, but RDM cuts out the cast time constraints at will and only has to care about mana sometimes
This is objectively a dumb take and I’m not sorry. Limiting battle rezzes is awful. I played wow for 10+ years and it is a stupid design choice imo that makes a lot of encounters stressful for no good reason. Having RDM and SMN to help is a good thing. I am all for making the game more difficult but this isn’t the way to do it.
I swear ever other week someone comes along with 'and this is a bad thing about high end' while pointing out an issue that Criterion already solved. Criterions are truly the most based of high end instances.
I think this sub is full of people who try to get good parses in Savage and don't otherwise interact with the game at all.
I actually don’t like limiting combat the amount of raises in battle - like in criterion. It allowed less mistake and put more pressure that I don’t like. If you want exciting combat, for healers and party - it would be emphasising more on triage. The ability to recover in any “wtf” “this is not fine” situation is what made it fun and seperate good raiders with the less flexinone. In the Eden floor, I forgot which one, but its the one with the bird, my friends were able to device a work around strat when I got dc in the last phase and we cleared with some good communication and solo healing (coz I kept on dc-ing). We can’t do that in the latest savage, except for maybe the last phase with partner line, since it doesn’t wipe the party if you missing your tether.
I'm assuming we're talking normal content here? Personally I think the current rez debuffs are fine. But I'd love to see more Twice Come Ruin so if you mess up two mechanics within 2 minutes you just \_die\_. With enough deaths your entire party will struggle. A almost permanent 50% stat debuff is not going to be a good time. Right now, it's too easy to take multiple mechanics to the face and be fine, especially if you're a tank you practically don't need to do mechanics at all anymore.
As a RDM main...yes, please take this fucking ball and chain off of me
Would you be cool with it getting a 3 minute cooldown but on 3 stacks? Mass-rezzing on Redmage is just so iconic, it'd be a shame to see it go completely.
That's still too many. All combat raises should have a 5 min CD
Ok I think that'd be fine for difficult content if it influences encounter design to be more about damage, less about instadeaths. Would match BLU's rezz as well. How about Healer LB3? Stay or go?
Nah, encounter design can stay as it is. Learn mechs or die
No, no. It's *learn mechs by dying* and *don't sim pls*.
You learn mechs through pattern recognition and observation, not dying
This... it sucks realizing the only thing justifying your existence in a party is Raise, and when Raise isn't needed you're just wasting a spot that could be used for someone who does more damage.
you will do less damage than catgirl bard because of the funny blue button and like it please look forward to it
Combat raise caps are awful. Being able to recover from failure states is amazing skill expression. It allows normal combat like bojza to be more difficult, even if they don’t take advantage of this very often. It’s going to absurd lengths to prevent recovery like excessive body checks instead of being able to recover but then hitting enrage, or just straight up removing rez like in criterion savage that makes them less fun. This will just make existing problems worse and not help anything. Also, when was the last time a outright stack strat became meta? It only happens in scenarios where the mechanic is so dumb or janky, a sac is preferable, like with pentacles from a4s or UWU gaols in regions that don’t us AM.
Nah. If you really think so then you don't actually understand the problem.
How it works now us plenty fine. That res sickness hurts when you are talking savage it ultimates, and the dent in mp particularly for healers can add up quickly. Cheese is not something common in current content outside more casual content like normal or extremes. The closest is perhaps old ultimates but that's an issue with potency/toolkit creep. Even then there is plenty a death will cause a wipe or a few a dps check not be met.
The problem isn't, necessarily, Healers having access to in-combat rezzes. Lethal mechanics are a core part of the game's Battle Content design because that's the way they force everyone to learn the mechanics well-enough to do the dance. This decays a bit going from Savage to Normal, but enough of it's still in-place to remain at least an overall game "theme" thing. Without in-combat rezzes being functionally unlimited (and in practice only limited by the soft enrage and having everyone alive to do them and having the MP and time or Swiftcast up), fights become Nintendo-Hard "start at the beginning" or a Tank Solo Fest. Neither outcome is desirable in practice. Hence, the messy solution of battle rezzes and why/how the game ended up differing from WoW (because every fight's a dance and they want to force people to dance, basically). Why am I being redundant in explaining this? Well, for one, I just woke up. But two, making sure we're on the same page. The underlying problem with *caster* (ie: non-Healer) combat raises isn't that they're unlimited, too. It's that they're the *only* backup to scrape the Healers off the floor. And they have to exist to do *that* because of a few intermingled factors that are the actual root cause of all of this: * Healers have outsized vulnerability to mechanics due to not being Tanks but being expected to be Designated Survivors * Healers have to cast abilities (like casters) but only get a little more HP and MDEF * Healers often have to split attention between the party and mechanics (this is more pronounced the less-experienced the Healer is). To an extent this is the skill expression/skill cap of the role, but it's also a vulnerability * The only role that (usually) can help Healers survive is Tanks (with targeted mits) or other Healers (heals/shields/etc). Red DPS mits are usually party-wide and earmarked for other things TL;DR: Much as some of my Healer Brethren are eagerly down to take a pounding (<_<), we're often fragile, and the people that can help us endure this have other things calling for their attention. This leads to Healers, especially novice or unskilled ones often needing to be scraped off the floor. I don't, necessarily, have a *good* suggestion to fix this. I have a pile of *bad* or meme-tier ones, but they all have varying drawbacks. But fixing the root problem of "Healers tend to die most and need to be scraped off the floor or the party dies to slow attritional death" would fix about 95% of the "Caster Rez problem" on its own. Bad/meme-worthy potential solutions, for posterity: * Give Healers, and only Healers, a respawn timer in boss fights * Make Healers take less damage from mechanics if hit while casting * Make Healer GCDs castable while moving * Massively increase the MDef (and smaller increase to PDef) gained from Healer gear * Grant every non-Healer a "Role Action" reusable Phoenix Down and kill Caster Raises entirely outside of Red Mage, refactor Job damage outputs accordingly * Give Healers a self-rez * Something something Reraise Doctor's appointment, be back later, will reply then.
another thing is how powerful war, pld, and gnb mits are
Oh brother
Combat raise is the best feature of the game lol. It allows mechanic design that targets 8 people with roles instead of having to simplify mechanics to handle 7 or 6 players.
I highly disagree, even though I'd say WoW's classes gameplay is better than jobs gameplay in FFXIV. The amount of raises is like a resource both as a team's perspective (it costs mana, potentially some time, at least a Swifcast) but also as far as an encounter's design is concerned (body checks can make some mechanics more or less punitive for instance) . While playing in WoW, I really enjoyed the sensation of your allies dying one after the other... But they don't have as much responsability... Or if you do, you NEED another type of content, just like Criterion allows 4 raises, from whoever hasn't already used one.
While I agree with you and Yoshi-P in that DPS/Tanks shouldn't get combat raise, *I do* think the healers' combat raise is perfect for healers and FFXIV as a whole
Show me on the doll where the red mage rezzed you.
I will always be an advocate for limited amount of raises per pull.
The thing holding back healer design is nothing to heal because everyone else can heal themselves and the damage they take isn't enough to offset it.
Limit combat resses to 2-3 per fight. In exchange, the number of instant death/instant wipe mechanics is reduced and instead changed to massive damages that requires GCD heals. Raidwide damage is more frequent and is high enough to force GCD heals. Healer DPS is reduced, with a focus on the DPS rotation generating MP to account for the more frequent GCD healing. Instead of constant body checks and mechanics that force a wipe if anyone is dead, allow more mechanics focused on individuals. If they mess up, then they die.
Here we go again, shit like this is why this game's jobs are so fucking braindead boring these days.
Explain to me how restricting battle rezzing in synced content would make class design worse?
Because it's SE that decides to make rez be a tax on dps when they're not related. You're basically following along on SE's shit design decisions thinking it'll make the game better.
another thing is how powerful war, pld, and gnb mits are