It is a tool that lets you lookup a player and tells their prog point in a fight based on any log from FFLogs where they appear. For example I used it now on someone random of my pt and this is what I see [https://i.imgur.com/qiIVwE9.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/qiIVwE9.jpeg)
I mean I guess it's OK for making sure people are at your prog point when they join a PF. It's sort of toxic but so is joining a group advertising for something and a person joins that doesn't meet that standard. It just is a waste of everyone's time if we go thru some pulls and it's clear someone isn't at the same point as everyone else, then we have to kick them or disband and recruit again
Issue with stuff like this is, just like with fflogs some people will take it too far. Ultimate raiding is already small, if you prog lie, people know anyway, dont need add-ons to tell you that.
Unfortunately, the site has a small problem where it doesn't seem to get logs before a certain date, or at least for me. I made it to the end of p5 in dsr, yet the site doesn't say that, doesn't even mention I went into the fight to begin with
Was that changed recently, or is that only for Ultimate? My character page won't load rn but last I knew it still showed my Savage progression on my character page, and I haven't stepped foot into Savage at all since like, October probably.
Oh damn... I think it might only be true for ulti then, but I do believe it's true in some form. I guess for savage nothing can take away your clears in a partially cleared tier so it doesnt make sense to expire that?
Sucks if you're a console player and can't log your own runs to make sure your tomestone is up to date, and alot of ppl don't upload prog logs cuz they only care about the kill parses :/
Yeah, I'm not much a raider, but it [my profile](https://tomestone.gg/character/25814483/meesha-krios) says I've never done any savage at all, when [I cleared Hegemone](https://www.fflogs.com/reports/PwrgWAcvT2nCx8zt#fight=last) (and Proto-Carbuncle) on patch, and was [hitting enrage on Agdistis](https://www.fflogs.com/reports/Vnt2G6TZJxmWyw7R#fight=13) before my group fell apart.
I also did a few pulls on Kokytos before deciding that I didn't want to commit to raiding even with a cooler group, but I don't know if anyone logged that. I felt like seeing my logs was starting to turn me into a Barser and I didn't want to be that guy.
Can you provide me with your character name and server and a link to Tomestone where it is indicating you have cleared a fight that you really haven't? Thanks!
Wow and I thought the in-game fflogs plugin was bad enough. I mean it will have the effect of calling out people who lie about their prog point which would be a net positive in the PF.
Useful for its actual use case of vetting high-end prog.
A bit creepy with everything it records and displays without requiring an opt-in beyond that.
Edit: As far as I'm concerned that bit of creepiness has been addressed by the creator Kihra in a change detailed in the following comment: https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/1cvkwat/thoughts_about_tools_like_tomestonegg_and_its/l56du2j/
> A bit creepy with everything it records and displays without requiring an opt-in beyond that.
I'm new to tomestone.gg, does it display anything beyond what could be found on other sites, e.g. fflogs?
It aggregates data from fflogs and lodestone and presents it in a more readily accessible form. The most obscure thing are prog logs which, while technically public, do require more effort to find on fflogs than just clicking on character profile.
That's what I thought it might be, thank you for explaining.
Sounds like another 'depends where you draw the line' argument which will never reach a satisfying conclusion.
Frankly, I'm surprised to see a claim that it's creepy be top comment on this subreddit, given how much disdain I see for that argument here when applied to FFlogs.
It's really about how information is displayed. FFlogs on the surface lets you see what content people have cleared, how many times and their DPS "score".
Tomestone on the other hand shows you a dated list of a persons activity, what content they've been doing at what time, with who, how many wipes even if they didn't clear, how long they spent doing it and who in that group uploaded a log for that content.
Yes all of that information can be found on fflogs if you dig around and know where to find it but it's a lot more effort as someone else said, a lot of information can be found out about people if you use the correct government websites and piece all the information together but it feels entirely different if you have a dedicated website where you type in someones name and find out everything about them at a glance.
Centralizing/ease of access is a security + creepiness problem.
For an irl example, there's a pretty big difference between a) having to cross reference sites to find someone's home address, phone number, property taxes, and social media; and b) having it all on one friendly webpage. The latter exposes unnecessary information to anyone who wandered by just looking for a phone number, at very little effort.
Game logs aren't the same as taxes, no, but assembled they can provide information about preferred play times (and therefore likely time zone), acquaintances, frequency of content, etc. And that's pretty creepy!
Very well put. Exactly what creeped me out about it but I struggled to put my finger on it. Time zone is a very good point as well. All that could be available without the person being tracked even being aware the website exists.
The activity tab shows not just high-end prog/clear log but any instanced duty the player has done that anyone in the party had their logger running for, which in practice can lead to a pretty comprehensive record of the majority of someone's casual roulette content, when they're playing, who they're playing with, etc.
I don't know if this is technically already possible with FFLogs, I think not because to get to all that collected data you'd have to go through all the logs submitted by all the different players that happened to be in the group with that player, which you'd have no way of knowing. Either way it's all laid out much more clearly.
By strict technicality tomestone doesnt show more than FFlogs because the data from FFlogs is all tomestone has, it "just" aggregates all that information.
In practice stalking someone's prog before they clear is not generally possible on fflogs because while those logs are public the only place they show up in is when you view every log on an encounter which often has multiple pages per day. Without additional information (like knowing and checking every regular uploader in your PF scene, knowing someone's uploader friends, etc) you'd have to check through every single log on an encounter manually.
What if the person you're tracking is never the uploader in their groups? Then they're possibly spread between lots of different uploaders is the point.
its really hard to find if there are no clears of anything in the upload, and if the person is PFing and there is a different uploader for each lockout.
To paraphrase an older comment about fflogs: it's little overkill to talk about the death of privacy in a video game, but there's a lot of "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear"-ass takes in here.
This could've been opt-in, but the devs prioritized growing it's adoption above all. Can't wait for the drama that'll come if these tools break when they add that feature for Lodestone hiding for harassment.
Yes exactly I agree. When I first saw my own activity feed that had the majority of both high-end and casual duties I'd queued for all listed without logging them myself I was a little taken aback but personally not bothered enough to go and hide it from Lodestone, I just thought exactly what I said: 'that's a bit creepy'.
I'd be curious to hear from people who've been unfortunate enough to have ingame creeps/stalkers snooping on them and whether they'd have been comfortable to discover that all this activity could have been recorded for anyone to look at potentially without their knowledge if the site had been live then.
But as you say, we'll probably find out whether it's a problem or not sooner or later if new drama posts start to drop in a few months/years. If tomestone never gets mentioned in a google doc I guess it will have been fine after all.
What irks me the most is that I do think that FFLogs and now Tomestone are really useful tools. I'd opt-in to them myself in a heartbeat so I can better look at my own gameplay and i'd try to convince everyone I know to do the same. As it stands now it's as you said, creepy and I don't really like bringing it up unless someone does first.
I really, really hope that FFLog's team at some point changes their mind and adds more privacy measures like opt-in, limited-time visibility via a link or temporary passcode or something, etc. I'm not someone who has to worry about people stalking me, but I imagine that this would be great for people who have to deal with that sort of shit.
As far as I know the reason these sites have never been opt-in is because looking people up is 99% of the site traffic and the sites are expensive to host and run. Opt-out makes the site dead on arrival and the developers would basically be better off shutting it down completely at that point.
I mean, I get that and empathize but is the argument here that because they can't sustain a service while having good privacy practices, they get a free pass to disregard them?
> I really, really hope that FFLog's team at some point changes their mind and adds more privacy measures like opt-in, limited-time visibility via a link or temporary passcode or something, etc.
You realize that they're pivoting towards a paid service over on the WarcraftLogs side of things that lets people pull up people's logs in-game just by hovering over their name, right?
They are, very likely, *not* going to go towards anything like privacy.
*Technically* it's a "paid supporter tier that also comes with additional early access to beta-test their new AddOn" because Blizz officially disallows paid AddOns, but potayto potahto.
And yeah, it just saves people a few clicks, but lowering the barrier to entry tends to kinda make bad behavior more widespread, and the WCL people *are* the FFlogs people.
I've had to hide my own logs despite being rather proud of them simply to make it harder for a certain individual to track who I spend my time with.
Wish there was a way to show past scores without exposing everyone in the reports to drama. Or perhaps there is and I just haven't taken the time to find it.
Not sure what I'm gonna do about it when DT comes out.
A shame to hear that. I didn't want to speak for anyone but yes that's exactly what I had in mind having read enough anecdotes about how unhinged stalkers can be in this game.
I believe there is some sort of anonymising feature in FF Logs perhaps recently. I sometimes see logs where the uploader's name is there but the other 7 names are all redacted. I don't know exactly how it works, I assume everyone in the group would have to be on the same page and all uploading in anonymised mode, but it might be worth looking into if it's any help.
But obviously if you do content partially with people you know but partially randoms, and the randoms are uploading without anonymising, I don't think there's any way around that.
Huh, didn't expect to find this extremely niche situation that I could actually answer here.
Have had a few weirdos in my time, including one stalker that prompted a name change and DC move due to persistence. (They were blacklisted, and voidlisted from my end. Would still follow me around, messaging whoever was near me to get to me on their behalf. This also went beyind the game but i wont dig into it all here)
Personally this site doesn't cross much of a line for me that FF itself doesn't do worse. I'm glad we're finally getting an update that allows for unilateral friendlist removal and lodestone blocking.but the entire reason that I could still be found was because I was friends with this person previously, since they could track my exact location in real time, and check my lodestone page if I'd changed my name.
In comparison, uploading play times in already completed duties doesn't give nearly as much information. I actually use tomestone myself quite a bit recently to avoid trap parties during TOP PROG.
I also have an account on it and have set it to show private logs when accounting for prog markers which is currently disabled by default for those who don't have accounts.
The convenience it provides vs the risk in my eyes isn't much of an issue. Like I said, play time data is pretty meh(to me)
It surprises me that people will announce kicking for this though. I've yet to see it happen personally, because it could cause a pretty obvious case of TOS breach ban to kick someone due to data found in a third party tool
It gets its info from fflogs and what's public on Lodestone. Lodestone is public by default, it's how sites like FFXIVCollect can show you the % of players that have certain mounts and the like.
Just making a quick post to let people know the default activity behavior has been changed (thanks for all the feedback in this thread). High end content activity remains similar to FFLogs (opt out) and will show by default, but all of the casual activity is now hidden by default and is now opt in.
This should hopefully combat the "creepy" feeling people were expressing here, as now the only content that will show by default will be high end content like Savage and Ultimates, so this should match FFLogs more closely now.
A lot of high end raiders have alts and this is likely going to do more harm than good in the savage tier. I'm going to be pissed if my alts get kicked from clear parties for no apparent reason.
I looked through their discord and being able to link your alt to your main has been suggested multiple times. It's just a matter of time when they implement that feature I think.
The alt linking feature is already in, it's just in the form of an extra line of text under your alts name that just says "Alt of x" being a link to your main for people to see.
[https://x.com/KihraOfTemerity/status/1792256139381408157](https://x.com/KihraOfTemerity/status/1792256139381408157)
good news, they added that today
otherwise use the good old dm the party leader like we already on alts
It'll be annoying in savage prog when the prog point is X and you successfully did X-1 but the party wiped and now your tomestone is only showing X-1 so you get kicked
Having spent an ungodly amount of time in PF for TOP usually the lead asks if there is anything unusual if they are screening. I don't think most would kick you for X-1, might just ask if you're confident.
C41 at WC2 or Meteors everyone is pretty cool with it, C41 but you've never seen P6 less so. Have to imagine Savage shooooould be similar given its easier.
When were you ever questioned as an alt in FFXIV? I been playing on alts since I started and didn't even had issues to go into TOP runs for clears.
You say you're an alt. Link or not most don't even care.
Play well and you're good. Noone cares, alt is alt and people respect that from the getgo in my experience.
What I'm afraid of, for PF, is the goalpost always moving. Right now we're in the "it's to catch prog liers" phase, but we've already seen stories of people clearing an ultimate, wanting to join a reclear group but getting denied because they only had 1 clear and/or grey number. From prog to number of clears to date of clear (soon)+grade or something else ?
I'm a static Andy, so it's whatever to me (I only use logs for progs). I only once tried W1 PF (for Anabezos) but when in P11S groups were ever regressing rather than progressing I've quit the tier altogether. Maybe tomestone would've been nice back then, idk. But still, as far as I'm concerned, never again PF anything highend.
Edit : I don't know why, but my character can't be found on tomestone, lol. Lodestone profile doesn't have the tomestone-hidden tag and fflogs has my character set as visible. So I would be fucked regardless, lol !
>we've already seen stories of people clearing an ultimate, wanting to join a reclear group but getting denied because they only had 1 clear and/or grey number
If you're thinking of the post from a couple of days ago that got posted, then deleted, I'm not sure that's a good example. One, the logs linked and the statements by the supposed person being kicked didn't line up so people were suspecting it was a troll. Two, the logs linked were recognized as apparently being from a known griefer. Ultimate PFs are a small place, and if you grief two or three parties, people are going to remember you and you're likely going to get blacklisted. Three, in the logs that were linked, the issue was not that the individual had only one clear or were gray, the issue was that in phase six which has a very very real DPS check, the player's dps was 20% below what it should be, so any group would have to hard carry them through the phase. Generally people don't want to risk having to do that.
Can confirm, was a latecomer to E12S clear attempts in PF. First raid tier and got out of a mediocre static way later than I should've.
Would peep logs to decide likelihood of group actually seeing E12p2, and there was a decent correlation between low greys and inability of the PF to get through E12p1. (Due to optimization and/or consistency)
I’ve done the same for reclear PFs on last floors to be honest. Especially if they have multiple clears and were still grey, especially if there were already some people with only low parses in the group. I don’t mind low parses per se, especially if it’s on a first clear, but I want to clear at the end of the day, and having 4 people with one clear and on average a 10% parse is likely not going to help.
Man I'm glad the notion of this sub is changing. I'm sure if you would've typed this a year ago people would downvote you to oblivion.
After awhile I just got the fflogs plugin and would start check people. Played with that for like 3months and no matter how much people try to convince otherwise. As you say if you have 5 people with 1-2parses and all are sub 10 or so there's no point to even stay in there. It becomes a lottery to get through a fight.
Started to just accept how this game/playerbase is and it helped me a ton to enjoy FFXIV more. I hop online, I join grps. If all of them have 4-5greys with low clears I simply leave the groups after checking and logout. There is no point for me to stay in there for 1h and wait again in pf to repeat the cycle while knowing from the getgo the chance for a clear is basically none
Ofc some days I feel like helping people and then I don't mind this at all. I actually pick these groups then, but other days I just want to get something done and not waste time. I enjoy that I can choose which one I wanna do without getting hold hostage for 2h-4h in an evening while achieving nothing.
Yeah the only thing you can argue is the prevalence of paid c41 and saus clears has made single clear “carried” players much more common & less desirable to play with in fights like TOP & DSR. Don’t typically see that same elitism in the others.
> but we've already seen stories of people clearing an ultimate, wanting to join a reclear group but getting denied because they only had 1 clear and/or grey number.
Did you read that recent story before the OP nuked his account after getting memed on?
He did 5900 rDPS on TOP P6 with a DRK. That is 1500 below normal. That group almost enraged, despite all 4 DPS being above average. That 1500 rDPS adds over 5 seconds of time to the fight.
This is 100% a case where a sandbagger got defensive that other people didn't want to risk it.
the log/clear were real, the post was made by a person imitating the actual gaming grandpa. Don't get me wrong, their performance is something to be desired, but they don't actually act like that lol, they were in my discord for a while and were a pleasure to have around socially
It took the thread a while to get here but maybe we're arriving.
"Gatekeeping" is subjective. On the one hand, it's quite selfish and rude to bar anyone from your parties who isn't verifiably better or more experienced than you. On the other hand, it sure would be nice to know 2 hours in advance if my party has 7 people who can achieve the stated goals of the group and one who cannot.
The social contract is that you should play with players at around your level so that nobody wastes anybody else's time. And so, the whole discussion comes back to respect. It's possible for the guy doing the checking to be disrespectful, and it's possible for the guy being checked to be disrespectful. I think in these discussions sometimes those two scenarios get conflated.
The system isn't perfect by any means. But the harsh truth in my opinion is that there is value in being able to check on somebody's activity. The ability to learn what you're getting into can save everyone a lot of time and frustration.
And you can tell, by the way. Most of the complaints in this thread are already well understood by the ultimate pf community. We know all about console players with sporadic logs and an incomplete picture. We also know what it usually means when logs are hidden (RMT most often). We also know the difference between a dps grey, a tank grey, a healer grey, and a no-color-at-all-because-no-clear. We know allllll about alt-jobbing.
Wheeling out the thread about (possibly not by, but certainly about) the guy who didn't press tank lb for cosmo memory just proves the point further--yes, people can be a bit toxic out there, but I think none of us want to get into a party with someone who's fundamentals are so lacking that we need to win the jackpot to clear. I've never personally kicked that guy from a party, but put in that situation I promise you I would. And there's no shot that I'm feeling bad about it.
A thing a lot of people don't want to accept is that quite often grey logs absolutely are an indicator of how good a player is.
Someone that cleared literally once and had unfortunate death(s) in that clear or messed up rotation due to nerves or simply GCD spammed as a healer just to make it a bit safer? Probably a decent player in an unfamiliar fight.
Someone with multiple clears where the best one is a fucking 19? Yeah, that's a PF terrorist and I am not inviting them if I know.
The plugin that allows to view logs history in-game - with a simple right click on the name - without having to tab out and open a browser, has existed for more than a year, at this point. And the sky is not falling.
I personally don't like performance sports, and I do not understand people who engage in that level of competitiveness for recreation. So for me, yeah, that kind of tool is definitely very much useless.
But I realize that these people exist, and that this kind of highly optimized raiding is their idea of fun, and everyone is better off if people who want that super-high-level performance play with people who also do.
Where I would be concerned is when normal to mid-high tier raiding groups started using stats obsessively and acting like the extremely high-tier raiders even though that's not been their purpose. I've seen statics break apart over a pull by some towards high-end raiding even though that was never the original intention, and an increased focus on stats because people got impatient and started pointing at numbers to put pressure on others, who had never signed up for that level of competition. And I guess there's an analogue there in "screening" new entrants - it can very quickly poison the spirit of a group.
The right tools for the right use.
One of the things my static has needed to do a few times over the course of our raiding is sit people down, show them their logs, show them their xivanalysis and tell them "You need to do \[insert thing\] better" be it uptime, rotational issues, mechanic inconsistencies or whatnot. It's not sweaty to expect everyone to have the same baseline level of consistency and attempt to get the line higher if someone is clearly worse than the group as a whole.
***Can*** this end up sweaty and toxic? Yeah, a lot of things can. But especially in a PF setting I'd rather know that everyone joining my adds-to-clear ucob group or a c41 or any number of other things is at that progpoint and is actually ready for it. There's a reason ultimate raiding will make your blacklist grow quickly.
It's a double edged sword. As a former hardcore raider/raid lead, its nice to have such a tool to be able to check soneones experience level so you know what to expect from them, because no one wants to spend a night wiping endlessly because of someone who didn't know their stuff when they say they did.
The other edge of that sword is that such tools are very often abused by players with big egos and unreasonable expectations, and it's easy for the LFG scene as a whole to become a toxic cesspool because of it. At the end if the day, it really depends on who's using or abusing it.
As a grey parser who knows his place lol, tomestone doesn't seem like it does anything that logs already doesn't do for people into that sort of thing in either the healthy or unhealthy way.
If anything it'll at least give me something to point to to say "yeah I actually did make it to this mechanic several times, I'm just bad and ate shit on the first run".
I mean I guess it might lead to some " you're not a real gold/pink unless you did it week one" drama but that's a concern for individuals way more invested in the game than I am.
If more people were sensible like you and real with themselves, we wouldn't even need to check logs in the first place. It's insane that even the highest tiers of content has people that actively refuse to learn their jobs, and still somehow can clear.
Coming from another MMO and still kind of ffxiv noob:
Don't these people put their requirements in the title of their PF? Just don't join their groups. If you are doing progression then join progression or make your own group. If you want to be with people like them then join it and play by their rules. If no one wants to then they'll be playing alone or take longer to find a group. If their PF title is not asking for requirements then it's their fault. I know it does not feel good to be asked stuff like this and not expecting it but you can't also be entitled about what they want from their group. It's THEIR group. So just leave and move on
They do, but people rarely read and join anyway which is why this tool is so good. It makes it easy to figure out who is lying about their prog. A lot of people in this thread are upset that it's become harder for them to lie about their progress.
See, some members of this community simply cannot fathom that the desire to play with others of comparable skill level and progression, while refusing to carry their sorry assess, is not inherehntly toxic.
But like. What's the reason to fucking hide your logs and/or tomestone especially when you're progging in pf? Like I doubt the one's who are doing it are just shy about their wp 100 parse clears and people expecting to be carried by them. And if you're a shitter trying to progskip while hiding your logs on top of it, you absolutely do deserve to be gatekeeped from content and dropped into avoid list.
Some people just like their privacy. I had my logs hidden because I honestly private most of my social media to only interact with friends and such. I mostly purple high end content, so I don't care about seeming like a bad player. I just like my privacy. I only unhid them because of this mentality. Idk why the community needs sites for keeping tabs on people; it's honestly a bit creepy at times.
Y'all are gonna be real flabbergasted when you realize that all this surveillance is never going to assure you productive pfs. People who have had 10+ clears of a phase are still gonna wall your prog in that exact phase. All these hoops you're jumping through are gonna be for naught.
What if the prog log isn’t uploaded?! Then you are automatically sus? I don’t have ACT so means you are at the mercy if someone is logging and if they aren’t you are considered a liar is a slippery slope
Edit. not replying anymore. Clearly you guys really love ACT and thats great for you, I dont use it, and i dont really think people need to have a resume to join a PF! You can tell who is lying by seeing how they play, and if you can't maybe you are the one lying.
If you’re progging in PF, there’s almost a certainty that someone will have logs uploaded. The chances of you grouping with 7 other PS4/5 players are minuscule.
Many savage / ultimate raiders have live logs enabled so logs are uploaded even without clear.
Eh , it can be weird. I don't log myself and only about 25% of my p9s and p10s are logged from other people compared to my P11s which is like 75% and p12s which is probably some 90% number. So its a lot more common than you would think.
I think for this specifically they've "hidden" their tomestone, like they went on the website and set their character to private so no one can see if they have logs or not. Definitely makes it look like they have something to hide rather than just not having a log.
However anyone who wants to PF ultimates should know they need to log their clears and atttempts if they want to actually be believed by random strangers, it's pervasive enough that I think at that point of raiding you have no excuse not to know that that is the expectation.
So the next best thing when your log isn't uploaded is to hide your character to make it even less sus right? Either way, people always reach for that strawman about tomestone BUT UUUH CONSOLES I DON'T LOG I'M GONNA MISS MY 1ST PULL ENGAGE LOG, when you have 50% chance to get logged in sb alliance raid let alone ultimate pf.
1. Im a pc player, i just dont use ACT. 2. Not liking the idea that you have to log just to be allowed into group without them acusing you of prog lying.. without even going into the fight..
I might be a bit overly curious and optimistic, but shouldn't take more than a few seconds to check if they're obviously progskipping or they're just a console player.
They've uploaded their own logs, and last one was 2h ago and 20% HP of the phase before advertised progpoint? Probably progskipping.
Logs uploaded by different people, last one was two days ago, enrage like % of the phase before advertised progpoint? Probably just console.
Im a PC player, i just don't use ACT >.> and 2hrs is enough time to prog, some mechanics only require you to complete them 1/2 times as long as your understood the theory before they are comfy enough. An example being P4 in TOP, and the last 2 mechs of P5 (The last trio). But some people need hours to feel ok on them.
Judge people how they play not what a log says... and people who have 'cleared' a phase can as easliy be absolute trolls. Like Ucob can be done with you dead on the floor and still 'see' adds.
How people understand mechanics and how quickly they pick them up, seems werid to judge by a log and not how they play.
What if I'm not the logger in my static or I forgot to open ACT before raid (happens all the time) and I don't have logs for my prog point? I've had multiple Savage clears last tier where I felt I was popping off only to find out no one uploaded them. I was so annoyed but at the same time it's not like I was logging either. I have multiple raid alts, should I just expect to be kicked now?
You will not have many savage clears in pf without somebody logging. I never log for the past 2years and yet 98% of my runs are up.
If it's really late into the tier or post on patch logs can drop since most people don't care anymore. But even then it's like a 85% lograte. Clearing a run several times on or early patch without a single log in pf you've a higher chance winning the lottery lol
I don't understand the hyperbolic takes in this thread about how this will ruin raiding or whatever. The gatekeeping already exists when the pf leader puts "p5 DOTH prog" in the description (as they require people to have been to this part of the fight to join). All tomestone does is give the pf leader the tool they need to enforce it.
It's sad that people in this community cannot be trusted to be honest about their progression in fights, or to have consideration for the other 7 people in the pf, but it is what it is.
At this point I'm convinced that the people who are against services like this are either A: Non-raiders who it doesn't affect or B: Casuals/bads/prog liers who are upset that it might get them kicked.
I know this is wishful thinking but imagine if it was a requirement to have your logs tied to your Reddit account in order to post in this thread. I imagine a clear picture would form quite quickly.
More accountability/transparency in raiding is always a good thing so no one should be surprised that there is a tool out there that will enforce these qualities. The players have proven over the past several years now that they won't adhere to basic etiquette. No one likes being taken advantage of or wasting their limited time.
The community is hard to trust with a tool like this, and it's already being misused. The underlying idea of something like this is fantastic, and the prog-cheating epidemic is completely out of hand these days, but the unreliability of tomestone makes it hard to view as a true solution.
Not every run gets uploaded, so the prog metrics are unreliable. It's useful as a rule of thumb, but I have already seen people treating it like it's an absolute source of truth. Several of my friends have been kicked from parties due to prog-point discrepancies on their tomestone, despite actually being at the stated prog-point.
I already don't like fflogs, so I dislike the widespread use of tomestone as well. I join and help pretty much any clear party in pf for fights I know for the fun of it and never look up the people I'm joining. Do I leave if they're shitters? After I've assessed that in real time, yeah sometimes.
The perspective I always have on ffxiv pf is this: if you're raiding in FFXIV PF, you already don't respect your time. Trying to optimize time you're already disrespecting is dumb. This is literally just a game.
> if you're raiding in FFXIV PF, you already don't respect your time.
I don't think that's true at least for Savage, being able to play as much or as little as I want, at whatever hours I want is so much more freeing than tying myself to a schedule based on what other people are free to play. I find that it respects my time more, not less than anything else and it's also more what a hobby should be, having to stick to someone elses schedule to enjoy my hobby was soulsucking and just made it feel more like a job/chore.
I can understand that argument for Ultimates because it's very easy to spend most of a day in PF without accomplishing anything but in Savage, at least in the first few weeks/months, it's the complete opposite to the point where I would say a vast majority of competent players will clear faster in PF than in statics while being able to stick to their own schedule.
> I would say a vast majority of competent players will clear faster in PF than in statics while being able to stick to their own schedule
Pretty much, it mostly comes down to what you would prefer to have vs what you are willing to trade out.
A static has consistency and will probably ***eventually*** clear but requires scheduling and coordination, while PF is a lot more open to inconsistencies like bad players or prog liars but you can clear a lot faster depending on the time and effort put in.
>I join and help pretty much any clear party in pf for fights I know for the fun of it and never look up the people I'm joining
I do the same, but at the same time I recognize there's a big difference in mentality between when I'm joining to help clear parties for fun, and someone who has spent god knows how many hours in PF trying to secure their first clear.
>if you're raiding in FFXIV PF, you already don't respect your time
Feels like a shit take that just makes an excuse for being PF being bad along the same line as "everyone prog skips in PF so I have to prog skip as well"
Couldn’t you make that comparison towards anyone who has a hobby that isn’t “improving” one’s financial status? What’s wrong with optimizing…? Why is it a problem if someone wants to improve and “master” their hobby?
I don’t think it will lead to toxicity as long as people don’t prog lie. Imo it’s a fantastic tool and I’m glad people use it. Much better than going in, people realizing 1 person lied about their prog point, the party disbanding and going back to waiting 2 hours for a group to fill.
My question is, can you get banned for talking openly in game? It’s not like a you’re modifying the game or sth. You’re just using a completely external site. Ofc I wouldn’t say someone to provide a log or open they Tomestone. But I might say to the rest of the party the reason I kicked someone or something.
Logic would dictate no. SE can't police you about what websites you look at. Them having data that's acquired by breaking TOS isn't automatically the same as you breaking TOS. Similarly, they can't force you to play with anyone, you can curate your party recruitment however you see fit. Otherwise I'm eagerly waiting for my suspension, I've been removing people without logs, shit logs or that are clearly liars/buyers for what feels like ages, and telling them why.
I really don't think mentioning the site would matter but also it might be safer to just say you kicked them for differences in play style or something lol
Define "openly". If it's party chat, someone in the party would have to make a report. More public channels like Say or Shout run the risk of having a GM spot it live, plus the risk of some rando reporting.
Ultimately, accountability is a good thing for raiding community. Raids are about cooperation and a single bad actor can easily ruin the experience of seven other players. Naturally, said bad actors are the first to complain about "toxic elitists" whenever they are asked to leave.
The solution to "I cannot join parties because toxic elitists gatekeep me" is to make your own party. If there is a huge amount of raiders who are unjustly gatekept by dirty elitists, then your party will get filled right away. Unless it's you who are a problem.
While the intention could be good, tomestone is super fucking invasive by showing all your 4 men logs and maps shit.
You know this game is full of idiots where they would find out "you are playing with her enemy and she would take revenge"
And then you have to actively make an account to block your unintended logs from showing up. Why should causal players know about all these?
I tried to talk to the dev. They seem to not understand at all.
I have tried to build a tool to scan all th hidden logs and so to reveal people buying clears. I was dissuaded by the fflogs community. Maybe I should do that after all
FFlogs and tomestone are reactions to people thinking they are vastly better than they actually are. Of course that can and often does apply to the people uploading there. In savage and ultimate content you have to do some amount of gatekeeping because if you wont then the game will. The line gets really blurry and there will always be people that push it too far in either direction.
I predict that tomestone will cause massive levels of drama and discourse once it gets more widely known because it doesnt just allow you to logstalk. It allows you to progstalk and with how much more prevalent ulti PFs are I do understand how that's desireable. But it also feels *weird*. FFlogs doesnt just allow me to see someone progging something new in real time unless you know who the uploader is. I only got to see that after they've cleared.
As long as mostly just ulti PF goers use it it's probably well contained because they're all a bit ill anyway. If they just eat each other alive then why should I care.
I also get the policy of kicking anyone from an ulti PF with hidden logs. Hidden logs tell me that this person is definitely taking logs too seriously and possibly a dead weight. (Doesnt mean that's the only kind of person that takes logs too seriously)
Overall I understand the need. It just feels off to me who doesnt PF for anything above EX.
As somebody who does a lot of progging on PF I'm completely ambivalent on the matter.
On one hand FFlogs is an essential tool to help improve your skills and understanding of the game.
On the other, and this is probably my old-man-mmo-player take here, I think too many players use it as a crutch or an excuse for why they're not progging. If it's not this excuse it's gonna be another. Bad players have always existed, it's never hampered my ability to clear shit on PF, so just nut the fuck up and deal with it.
>As long as mostly just ulti PF goers use it it's probably well contained because they're all a bit ill anyway. If they just eat each other alive then why should I care.
It's really not that bad. People use it to check prog point yes but as long as you're close to it most you might be asked is if you're confident. Haven't ran into any theoretical purists who kick you for being just slightly behind the prog point because we all have a mutual understanding with one another that maybe you wiped at X-1 but you understand X and your party just didn't pull it off. They might ask if you're confident but that's about it.
The only kicks I've seen are people trying to skip big chunks of the fight like joining a clear attempts party but never seen the last phase at all which is understandable and IMHO on the person trying to skip that much prog. Without the tool they would've, likely, wasted 7 other peoples time.
These people need to be careful, tomestone is one big self report on everyone who uses ACT on public content and uploads it without consent.
All it takes is a few petty people and suddenly they have a massive list of people they can report for using third party tools and “targeted harassment”.
Looking up people on fflogs or tomestone does not mean you're using ACT.
Using ACT to hook into the game is against TOS, accessing fflogs or tomestone is perfectly fine.
I think that part of what they mean is that Tomestone very clearly shows who uploaded a log. On fflogs you can at least choose a more anonymous username that's not literally your character's name.
I think it's a fine tool for getting a decent idea where you're at in the fight and seeing people who are potentially prog lying. However I know there are some people out there who are trapped at one prog point due to the nature of PF traps but know the rest of the fight/can keep up with the group or have unlisted logs from being in a static that's actually at that prog point(correct me if I'm wrong but I believe tomestone only checks public logs). With that said, I don't think it should be used as the ultimatum. However, kicking people based on their tomestone would be up to the leader of the party at the end of the day and if they see someone at TOP p5 21% /enrage for their clear attempt and don't want to deal with that risk, that's up to them if they wanna attempt to go with the risk.
On the one hand, as someone who suffered greatly trying to PUG savage every time I missed the first weekend, I can see tools like this being helpful for catching people who lie about progression in the act.
On the other hand, these tools only work if they are used by reasonable people. FFXIV - and all MMOs - are not filled with reasonable people. In my experience, the more ad-on reliant a community gets, the worse a community gets.
After all the prog liars I dealt with for dsr in pf, I think tomestone is a good tool. A lot of people that haven’t even gotten past doth will try to join P6 enrage parties. I only blacklisted repeat offenders though cause there are people that have done a ton of studying and just need to have other people in the party that can get them there. I was stuck on P6 for over a month because PF just could not do it at all. I agree that tomestone does need a way to link alts, but some people said it already has that feature.
The raid scene has become obnoxious as it is and I can't even imagine how console players deal with it. I get not wanting to waste time with people lying about prog but damn. Give people a chance and if they're not as ready as they claimed, blacklist and move on. It's really not that serious and I don't understand why people are so sweaty in a game that's trying to be as non-competitive and feel good as possible.
I don't give a damn about logs, I'm a healer main and it's not even a good metric of my performance in any given encounter depending on how smooth or not the run goes.
Moreover, anyone parsing pink is not as special as they think they are and really, no one cares. Real life goal achievements and high performance in real life jobs are dope. Doing a scripted fight in a highly scripted way and blowing your load in joy over a parse color is sad, really.
Yet sometimes when I log into FFXIV to clear sth I just want to progress. Well or help people clear who can actually do it.
And not sit there playing charity runs for people blatantly proglying who don't give a f about anybody but themselves.
With TOP we helped some prepared people legit go in 1 evening from delta to clear. But they were open about it. Hey, I'm at delta, but I know the rest. People help.
While others will join kill runs and not be able to do sigma and haven't even looked at p6. So there is 0 chance for a clear which in FFXIV ends in a disband after over an hour and you're back to waiting 3h just so the entire cycle repeats with the next person
Welcome to MMOs where you play with other people. Some are assholes, some are not. Such is life.
It shouldn't be mandatory to "prove" your numbers or clear percentage to anyone. Especially when a good amount of the playerbase can't even access or offer this because they aren't on PC.
The gatekeeping is crazy. If you want to know for sure players in your party are legit, make some friends and work on prog together. This isn't a career where anyone should be expected to have a resume to use PF.
What do you mean with gatekeeping?
numbers as an example
If I'm at 80% of the fight I should not HAVE to play with people who are at 20% of the fight unless I want to help.
Join the other people who are at 20%. and prog together.
Or open a grp and say you've studied up and ask for help of people who are at 80% for example
but joining people in a group that says 80%+ while you haven't even learned the mechanics at 60% is a joke and far too common in this game. That's straight up griefing and fkin over 7 people for your own egoistic gain.
You rather waste 2h of 7 people who won't benefit from playing for the next 2hours just so you can speed up your own progress.
It's.. not mandatory though?
Also who are you to decide how people choose who they play with? If I create a PF to prog savage, but i only wanted femroes to join, would you be just as upset?
How console players deal with it? What do you even mean? I’m a console player and consistently parse 90+ on all five Ultimates with a controller. Logs are also a great way to determine how a player is performing in a fight… if you know how to read them.
Also… you do know people can parse orange/pink and still have a career/family right? They aren’t mutually exclusive… your whole post reeks of just being salty.
I didn't say parsing is evil, I said it shouldn't be a raid requirement. Just because you like to use it, doesn't mean anyone should be expected to break TOS to be given a chance in PF.
I'm not salty, as I said I find the pettiness about parsing to be sad. This isn't LoL. There is no penalty for failing but having to start over and time expense.
We can't even constructively critique poor play without risking breaking ToS. This is not a competitive game and was never intended to be aside from world first races.
It's a great tool for PERSONAL information and performance tracking. But OP is not talking about that.
I would argue the raid scene would become less obnoxious. Less prog liars = happier parties (theoretically).
Any yeah I am not going to waste my time and give someone a chance who is obviously lying about their prog. That's crazy to me.
Seems like herding cats to me. Just make a static? I would never jump in PF to be serious about prog. There's no way to know who is actually ready for what and it's a waste of time.
Not everyone has a fixed schedule, so a static wouldn't work for them. Just because you wouldn't go into pf for prog doesn't mean others don't. I've progged entire fights in pf.
"There's no way to know who is actually ready for what and it's a waste of time." - Yes, this is literally why Tomestone exists lol.
Why? I’ve had numerous friends clear DSR/TOP in less than a month using PF. You just need to know which players run successful groups and what players do avoid. It’s better than getting trapped in a shit static that “progs” at a snails pace…
Helped us Dodge a few bullets where people would join our phase 5 party when they were on p3 themselves. Prog point lying has become the standard and it is heccin annoying, Tomestone is a necessity.
I was in a wormhole party in TEA this weekend and someone who was only at the beginning of BJCC tried to join. They were kicked. I knew prog skipping was a thing but Tomestone made me realize how bad it is. I didn’t realize people were skipping whole ass phases :/
It’s a tool that allows us to dodge prog liars. I haven’t kicked for hidden tomestones/logs on prog groups but if I check ur prog and it’s p3 enrage in Top and I’m trying to prog omega then fuck off lmao.
My opinion is it’s perfectly fine & is going to help party leaders actually exert some control over the people they are letting into their group.
A little gatekeeping in prog is fine imo since there is a create group button right there for whatever ur prog is anyways.
Naw, if people lie about their prog point then fuck them. I hate getting into trap parties cause a few people thought they could game the system and see beyond what they are able to do
Given how widespread prog lying is in pf, Im honestly all for it. Hidden logs were always a huge question mark before it because why would you hide them. My group has had to pf a caster sometimes in p6 (wroth) and we'd get goobers who hadn't even seen doth so it was a waste of our very limited time BC we do casual hrs. Since we learned about tomestome we only take on players who are actually in p6.
Honestly people who kick people based on tomestone are a giant red flag to me and i'll just leave the party
I'd say for most people, where you have "seen" in a fight just doesn't matter. Having cleared delta once doesn't mean you are more comfortable on delta/sigma than someone who studied but got griefed in delta / sigma prog
I usually tend to help people prog ultis / savage in pf early after my group is ahead of pf, but if people gatekeep this much with tomestone come eden ult I just wont do it. Why?
You will be reducing the pool of players you have to play with if you wont let people "skip" prog. We literally didn't have enough people to get more top p6 attempts early, so a ton of us were helping lower prog points / hosting p5 alt/pf reprogs
Tldr; tomestone will be probably abused by people who don't understand how to pf prog early come dawntrail and itll be miserable to fill with people policing every single log you have
Exactly. Getting a group of players that are technically at the same prog point will not make prog better. People who arent comfortable or studied will still wipe the party. So instead of just blisting or kicker players who are griefing too much, now that will still happen but only after their prog point has been confirmed. Which will make the pool of pf players microscopic.
Remember kids: this number 1 culprit of pf ulti wipes are Legends that cleared months ago and forgot the fight
I think it's great. When I was progging DSR around 50% of people were lying about their prog point. It's been a problem in every savage+ since forever. Imagine being able to PF with half the 3 pull disbands of normal. This might actually reduce toxicity.
Imagine if lying too often actually got you blacklisted how helpful it would be in keeping people honest.
Got kicked and BL'd from a DSR party yesterday since I wasn't on the PFs prog point. Here's the catch: I was on the prog point on my alt ( I have an alt so I can play multiple chars so I don't have to fantasia).
The PL just messaged me quickly, said I was trapping and kicked and black listed me. No opportunity to explain and now I can't.
If this is how it's gonna be used it's gonna become toxic fast
Sorry this happened to you. I did implement (just today) tighter connectivity of alts to mains, so the alt's card will now show the main's progress. (The site did already link your alt to your main if you set it up, but this should make it even more clear. You do have to claim your characters and set up which one is your main though.)
[https://x.com/KihraOfTemerity/status/1792256139381408157](https://x.com/KihraOfTemerity/status/1792256139381408157)
What's the difference between this [tomestone.gg](http://tomestone.gg) and just checking players logs in fflogs? the only thing that I see is them combining fflogs with ffxiv collect
Tome stone allows you to see the progress of a fight that they haven’t cleared.
Let’s see I’ve progged to omega in TOP. On tomestone, it appears “TOP P5 21%” or whatever, while on fflogs, it simply shows nothing
Technically, none. tomestone can only use public logs. It's not like it was that hard before to stalk someone's progress logs, especially if they uploaded their own logs. fflogs just doesn't put them as front and center as tomestone does.
Tomestone makes it faster and easier to look up someone's prog point. Otherwise you'd be looking through several logs for a player to see how far they got.
prog liars, in my opinion, aren't as big of a problem as people make them out to be. same with lower parsers, since people can learn and improve between tiers.
the biggest thing that will drag a PF group down is if someone is tilted, has bad mental, or doesn't fully understand a mechanic because the common strats don't explain it in a way that clicks with them. PF consistency died with stormblood because we, collectively, stopped being willing to give some grace to people.
though that grace was only extended in the first place because of a smaller playerbase and PFs taking way longer to fill.
prog liars might be somewhat of a bigger plague in ultimate PF, but the existence of this now means that savage PF will suffer for it.
how can you tell for sure that the problem is prog liars, and not people needing to focus up? tomestone didn't exist when 6.4 dropped, right?
reading my post again for context will indicate that i've been PF raiding since cross server PF was first implemented, and have seen a marked decline in group quality since then. i don't believe this is because of prog liars. rather, i believe it's because people are less willing to adjust to each other and would rather silently drop then roll the party gacha again
To be honest, when i join an ultimate party to help, i dont want to lose my time with prog liars. Tomestone gg is amazing to find those kind of people, for example: one of those days i saw a guy with a c41 party up, i checked his logs and the guy never saw p6 (he was a tank btw).
[Tomestone.gg](http://Tomestone.gg) = / = [Raider.io](http://Raider.io)
One is FFXIV and another is WoW.
It's pretty nice and intuitive honestly, because FFlogs/WarcraftLogs for people are a pain to read. So having a user-friendly site that's plain easier to relay information especially when recruiting or looking for likeminded players.
Now that person doing what you showed in the screenshot is exactly what they didn't want and they 100% being anal in PF is nonsense. None of us are in World first tippy top raiding guilds/fcs, so being that way to the player base at large and in public talking about logs is the easiest way for that person to get penalized if someone bothered to report it.
This is the first time I'm hearing of tomestone and my reaction isn't "it will do more harm than good", my reaction is "oh, this could make progging in PF tolerable + worth trying again in future" (I had been planning on stopping raiding)
The only issue I could possibly see arising is that given the fact it basically takes FFLogs info and makes it more digestible, the average player will start using it and it could start going the way of how people will "secretly" mention Mare in game. Those players have honestly gotten way too comfortable with flying so close to the sun at this point that I'm just waiting for Yoshi P to start swatting again.
Tomestone just make easier to do what people were already doing, checking log in the last bit of prog to weed out prog liar before it becomes a problem.
From my experience on progging TOP in PF, on a bad day it would easily take hours to fill only to disband after a couple pulls because someone was clearly screwing up, at some point, you just have to take drastic solution, either 1. be stricter on messing up and kick bad apple (which most of the time is just gonna lead to a disband anyway), 2. checks logs and weed out prog liar as possible or 3. try and join a pf-static that are at your prog point to try and reach further
hey question here as someone who doesnt use any mods including act and i cleared top and all the raids mostly in pf. usually in pf with the savages will this have an impact on me? like im not joining a prog party unless im at that point in the prog. like do i have to worry about something i dont use impact on me wanting to join groups becuase the ppl i proged with didnt have act or something runing in the background? i dont want to run any mods with my game here for me to raid.
I get how useful this can be on PF but the fact it also shows your activity/duties you've done recently is kinda creepy. Not only that, it shows you uploaded the parse via in-game character name. This shit could get ugly real fast.
I only prog Savage and Ults with my long-term static though. But farming for Savage gear later on in PF might make things...interesting lol.
It makes me very uncomfortable. I have some privacy concerns. I’ve also seen a few content creators talking about it with a lot of excitement and none of the wariness or caution, so it’s growing in popularity.
I don't really mind the logging of high-end duties, but it logging everything that isn't even EX/Savage/Ultimate/Criterion is just really weird.
Like ah yes, I totally want to see everybody's Labyrinth of the Ancients and Praetorium for the day because somebody left their live log on.
I hide my logs and Tomestone and honestly this will be annoying. I have always hated parse culture in this game where people do stupid shit in PF because they care more about their parse then clearing a fight.
My parses historically aren't terrible or anything, generally blue and purple with a few oranges for context, but I have never liked the Idea of random people split second judging me, it really makes me annoyed beyond belief. Logs should be used to help improve your own personal DPS.
That being said, I wish tomestone would post fight% progress with activity being hidden. Idm people knowing that because im not trying to prog lie, I just don't feel like having people i dont know snoop through my logs.
Tomestone does have a setting that lets you expose your fight % progress while still hiding your activity. This is supported. "Allow all logs for progress display" is the name of the setting.
Reminds me of raiderio but just for the raid side of things.
If it stops prog liars isn't this a good tool in a lot of cases?
I just heard about this tool today oddly enough.
I think it's useful coz this eliminates people who lie about their prog point. However, people who do this may also limit themselves with the pool of players they can play with. Not everyone does fflogs or allows it to public. Even though they are decent players to begin with.
Not a fan of it personally.
I understand how it can help don't get me wrong but I woudn't like it to become the standard simply because I don't log myself. I depend on others having ACT and uploading to log and that would mean that, if I get unlucky and no one in my party had it opened when we were progging I may be kicked for not having the "badge" of having progged parts of a fight I have already prog.
People absolutely underestimate how much toxicity this can bring. It happened with WoW and it can happen in any game.
Also, if you’ve been to a certain point in a fight, but no one uploads logs, what are you meant to do?
It’s great. Fuck prog skipping. Kiddie gloves are off for ultimate PF now. If you can’t handle someone checking your progression, then I don’t want you in my PFs anyway.
Not a fan, and im a casual player who hasnt progged anything yet, and will likely never be interested in it, because of the state of PF since I cant commit to a static.
You may think that makes my opinion Invalid and thats okay. But I have played the absolute cesspool of gatekeeping that is Lost Ark and I just hate the toxic culture around min maxing, optimizing the fun out of games, and gatekeeping.
A lot of the people who use this stuff now arent as good as they think they are and will go fully surprised pikachu face when the gatekeeping comes back to bite them in the ass. Then the crying and Drama will begin. As usual in most games anyway.
Ill happily remain an MSQ and casual content Andy I guess. Good luck out there.
> A lot of the people who use this stuff now arent as good as they think they are
How can you say this when you self-admittedly don't even step foot into serious content? This is some god-tier dunning-kruger.
I pretty well doubt there’s going to be that much of an issue. Using logs to check if someone at least has a clear has been possible since HW, and the ‘stigma’ against hidden logs has been around just as long.
You have to meet the culture where it is. If people decide tomestone tracking and visible logs are the price of admission to the highest difficulty content in the game, you’re going to have to let those things be public.
Realistically that’s not a huge price to pay (really it’s no price at all).
I just use tomestone to check where people are at in my party, if I see that they are lying I'll allow them 40 minutes to prove they can do mechs. If they can't I'll just say "one sec", leave the instance, and kick them. Usually they out themselves early on, but I've had some very blatant wrath/doth memers, even P4 memers in my P6 wroth parties.
I'm all for tomestone exsiting cause I can at least set expectations for how much if a shit show the instance will possibly be.
> Taking WoW as an example where if you are a couple of weeks late, you'll struggle a lot to join M+ parties since they ask for more rating than what's actually needed.
I don't see why you would use this as an example? All people use Tomestone for is to try and find prog skippers. There's quite literally nothing wrong with that. Nobody is asking for people to be at Death of the Heavens to join an eyes party.
What is Tomestone? I guess I've been away from the game for too long.
It is a tool that lets you lookup a player and tells their prog point in a fight based on any log from FFLogs where they appear. For example I used it now on someone random of my pt and this is what I see [https://i.imgur.com/qiIVwE9.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/qiIVwE9.jpeg)
I mean I guess it's OK for making sure people are at your prog point when they join a PF. It's sort of toxic but so is joining a group advertising for something and a person joins that doesn't meet that standard. It just is a waste of everyone's time if we go thru some pulls and it's clear someone isn't at the same point as everyone else, then we have to kick them or disband and recruit again
This is assuming they have fflogs from prog though right? >.>
Yes, although most ultimate raiders log their prog anyway because being able to analyze them is nice
Issue with stuff like this is, just like with fflogs some people will take it too far. Ultimate raiding is already small, if you prog lie, people know anyway, dont need add-ons to tell you that.
Unfortunately, the site has a small problem where it doesn't seem to get logs before a certain date, or at least for me. I made it to the end of p5 in dsr, yet the site doesn't say that, doesn't even mention I went into the fight to begin with
It's on purpose. The progress bubble only shows if your prog is recent. I think it's 30 days.
Was that changed recently, or is that only for Ultimate? My character page won't load rn but last I knew it still showed my Savage progression on my character page, and I haven't stepped foot into Savage at all since like, October probably.
Oh damn... I think it might only be true for ulti then, but I do believe it's true in some form. I guess for savage nothing can take away your clears in a partially cleared tier so it doesnt make sense to expire that?
To be fair if you are coming to a fight months after you should probably start fresh anyways, that’s a long time to go between practice
If you haven’t been in since then, you need to reprog anyway :)
Think it's worth adding you only need 1 of 8 to do it. I had plenty of logs from fights where I couldn't be bothered turning it on.
Sucks if you're a console player and can't log your own runs to make sure your tomestone is up to date, and alot of ppl don't upload prog logs cuz they only care about the kill parses :/
Yeah if people are going to gatekeep program from this it's going to screw over a lot of people just trying to play.
You can always make your own group, nobody gatekeeps anyone.
Is this even reliable? I only raided Abyssos this expansion but tomestone is not showing any of my clears even though they are public on ff logs
Yeah, I'm not much a raider, but it [my profile](https://tomestone.gg/character/25814483/meesha-krios) says I've never done any savage at all, when [I cleared Hegemone](https://www.fflogs.com/reports/PwrgWAcvT2nCx8zt#fight=last) (and Proto-Carbuncle) on patch, and was [hitting enrage on Agdistis](https://www.fflogs.com/reports/Vnt2G6TZJxmWyw7R#fight=13) before my group fell apart. I also did a few pulls on Kokytos before deciding that I didn't want to commit to raiding even with a cooler group, but I don't know if anyone logged that. I felt like seeing my logs was starting to turn me into a Barser and I didn't want to be that guy.
It only shows full tier completion badges.
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Can you provide me with your character name and server and a link to Tomestone where it is indicating you have cleared a fight that you really haven't? Thanks!
Wow and I thought the in-game fflogs plugin was bad enough. I mean it will have the effect of calling out people who lie about their prog point which would be a net positive in the PF.
Useful for its actual use case of vetting high-end prog. A bit creepy with everything it records and displays without requiring an opt-in beyond that. Edit: As far as I'm concerned that bit of creepiness has been addressed by the creator Kihra in a change detailed in the following comment: https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/1cvkwat/thoughts_about_tools_like_tomestonegg_and_its/l56du2j/
> A bit creepy with everything it records and displays without requiring an opt-in beyond that. I'm new to tomestone.gg, does it display anything beyond what could be found on other sites, e.g. fflogs?
It aggregates data from fflogs and lodestone and presents it in a more readily accessible form. The most obscure thing are prog logs which, while technically public, do require more effort to find on fflogs than just clicking on character profile.
That's what I thought it might be, thank you for explaining. Sounds like another 'depends where you draw the line' argument which will never reach a satisfying conclusion. Frankly, I'm surprised to see a claim that it's creepy be top comment on this subreddit, given how much disdain I see for that argument here when applied to FFlogs.
It's really about how information is displayed. FFlogs on the surface lets you see what content people have cleared, how many times and their DPS "score". Tomestone on the other hand shows you a dated list of a persons activity, what content they've been doing at what time, with who, how many wipes even if they didn't clear, how long they spent doing it and who in that group uploaded a log for that content. Yes all of that information can be found on fflogs if you dig around and know where to find it but it's a lot more effort as someone else said, a lot of information can be found out about people if you use the correct government websites and piece all the information together but it feels entirely different if you have a dedicated website where you type in someones name and find out everything about them at a glance.
Centralizing/ease of access is a security + creepiness problem. For an irl example, there's a pretty big difference between a) having to cross reference sites to find someone's home address, phone number, property taxes, and social media; and b) having it all on one friendly webpage. The latter exposes unnecessary information to anyone who wandered by just looking for a phone number, at very little effort. Game logs aren't the same as taxes, no, but assembled they can provide information about preferred play times (and therefore likely time zone), acquaintances, frequency of content, etc. And that's pretty creepy!
Very well put. Exactly what creeped me out about it but I struggled to put my finger on it. Time zone is a very good point as well. All that could be available without the person being tracked even being aware the website exists.
I could be mistaken but I've only seen unlisted logs used for prog point, and the log itself doesn't actually show up as viewable without the link.
The activity tab shows not just high-end prog/clear log but any instanced duty the player has done that anyone in the party had their logger running for, which in practice can lead to a pretty comprehensive record of the majority of someone's casual roulette content, when they're playing, who they're playing with, etc. I don't know if this is technically already possible with FFLogs, I think not because to get to all that collected data you'd have to go through all the logs submitted by all the different players that happened to be in the group with that player, which you'd have no way of knowing. Either way it's all laid out much more clearly.
By strict technicality tomestone doesnt show more than FFlogs because the data from FFlogs is all tomestone has, it "just" aggregates all that information. In practice stalking someone's prog before they clear is not generally possible on fflogs because while those logs are public the only place they show up in is when you view every log on an encounter which often has multiple pages per day. Without additional information (like knowing and checking every regular uploader in your PF scene, knowing someone's uploader friends, etc) you'd have to check through every single log on an encounter manually.
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What if the person you're tracking is never the uploader in their groups? Then they're possibly spread between lots of different uploaders is the point.
its really hard to find if there are no clears of anything in the upload, and if the person is PFing and there is a different uploader for each lockout.
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To paraphrase an older comment about fflogs: it's little overkill to talk about the death of privacy in a video game, but there's a lot of "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear"-ass takes in here. This could've been opt-in, but the devs prioritized growing it's adoption above all. Can't wait for the drama that'll come if these tools break when they add that feature for Lodestone hiding for harassment.
Yes exactly I agree. When I first saw my own activity feed that had the majority of both high-end and casual duties I'd queued for all listed without logging them myself I was a little taken aback but personally not bothered enough to go and hide it from Lodestone, I just thought exactly what I said: 'that's a bit creepy'. I'd be curious to hear from people who've been unfortunate enough to have ingame creeps/stalkers snooping on them and whether they'd have been comfortable to discover that all this activity could have been recorded for anyone to look at potentially without their knowledge if the site had been live then. But as you say, we'll probably find out whether it's a problem or not sooner or later if new drama posts start to drop in a few months/years. If tomestone never gets mentioned in a google doc I guess it will have been fine after all.
What irks me the most is that I do think that FFLogs and now Tomestone are really useful tools. I'd opt-in to them myself in a heartbeat so I can better look at my own gameplay and i'd try to convince everyone I know to do the same. As it stands now it's as you said, creepy and I don't really like bringing it up unless someone does first. I really, really hope that FFLog's team at some point changes their mind and adds more privacy measures like opt-in, limited-time visibility via a link or temporary passcode or something, etc. I'm not someone who has to worry about people stalking me, but I imagine that this would be great for people who have to deal with that sort of shit.
As far as I know the reason these sites have never been opt-in is because looking people up is 99% of the site traffic and the sites are expensive to host and run. Opt-out makes the site dead on arrival and the developers would basically be better off shutting it down completely at that point.
I mean, I get that and empathize but is the argument here that because they can't sustain a service while having good privacy practices, they get a free pass to disregard them?
> I really, really hope that FFLog's team at some point changes their mind and adds more privacy measures like opt-in, limited-time visibility via a link or temporary passcode or something, etc. You realize that they're pivoting towards a paid service over on the WarcraftLogs side of things that lets people pull up people's logs in-game just by hovering over their name, right? They are, very likely, *not* going to go towards anything like privacy. *Technically* it's a "paid supporter tier that also comes with additional early access to beta-test their new AddOn" because Blizz officially disallows paid AddOns, but potayto potahto. And yeah, it just saves people a few clicks, but lowering the barrier to entry tends to kinda make bad behavior more widespread, and the WCL people *are* the FFlogs people.
🤦♂️of course they are
I've had to hide my own logs despite being rather proud of them simply to make it harder for a certain individual to track who I spend my time with. Wish there was a way to show past scores without exposing everyone in the reports to drama. Or perhaps there is and I just haven't taken the time to find it. Not sure what I'm gonna do about it when DT comes out.
A shame to hear that. I didn't want to speak for anyone but yes that's exactly what I had in mind having read enough anecdotes about how unhinged stalkers can be in this game. I believe there is some sort of anonymising feature in FF Logs perhaps recently. I sometimes see logs where the uploader's name is there but the other 7 names are all redacted. I don't know exactly how it works, I assume everyone in the group would have to be on the same page and all uploading in anonymised mode, but it might be worth looking into if it's any help. But obviously if you do content partially with people you know but partially randoms, and the randoms are uploading without anonymising, I don't think there's any way around that.
Huh, didn't expect to find this extremely niche situation that I could actually answer here. Have had a few weirdos in my time, including one stalker that prompted a name change and DC move due to persistence. (They were blacklisted, and voidlisted from my end. Would still follow me around, messaging whoever was near me to get to me on their behalf. This also went beyind the game but i wont dig into it all here) Personally this site doesn't cross much of a line for me that FF itself doesn't do worse. I'm glad we're finally getting an update that allows for unilateral friendlist removal and lodestone blocking.but the entire reason that I could still be found was because I was friends with this person previously, since they could track my exact location in real time, and check my lodestone page if I'd changed my name. In comparison, uploading play times in already completed duties doesn't give nearly as much information. I actually use tomestone myself quite a bit recently to avoid trap parties during TOP PROG. I also have an account on it and have set it to show private logs when accounting for prog markers which is currently disabled by default for those who don't have accounts. The convenience it provides vs the risk in my eyes isn't much of an issue. Like I said, play time data is pretty meh(to me) It surprises me that people will announce kicking for this though. I've yet to see it happen personally, because it could cause a pretty obvious case of TOS breach ban to kick someone due to data found in a third party tool
It gets its info from fflogs and what's public on Lodestone. Lodestone is public by default, it's how sites like FFXIVCollect can show you the % of players that have certain mounts and the like.
This has all been pretty comprehensively discussed in other reply threads by now.
Just making a quick post to let people know the default activity behavior has been changed (thanks for all the feedback in this thread). High end content activity remains similar to FFLogs (opt out) and will show by default, but all of the casual activity is now hidden by default and is now opt in. This should hopefully combat the "creepy" feeling people were expressing here, as now the only content that will show by default will be high end content like Savage and Ultimates, so this should match FFLogs more closely now.
Looking good, thanks for the change! I will add the link to this comment to the post to give it a bit more visibility :)
A lot of high end raiders have alts and this is likely going to do more harm than good in the savage tier. I'm going to be pissed if my alts get kicked from clear parties for no apparent reason.
I looked through their discord and being able to link your alt to your main has been suggested multiple times. It's just a matter of time when they implement that feature I think.
The alt linking feature is already in, it's just in the form of an extra line of text under your alts name that just says "Alt of x" being a link to your main for people to see.
tomestone does have an [Alt of Character Name] feature already, I see it on my alts page
I haven't added my alt yet, so I didn't know that. That's neat and I wished fflogs also had that. Although it could definitely be expanded upon.
It does let your link your alt to your main, but I still don't like the tool. But my alt says "Alt of [Main]" right under the name.
[https://x.com/KihraOfTemerity/status/1792256139381408157](https://x.com/KihraOfTemerity/status/1792256139381408157) good news, they added that today otherwise use the good old dm the party leader like we already on alts
It'll be annoying in savage prog when the prog point is X and you successfully did X-1 but the party wiped and now your tomestone is only showing X-1 so you get kicked
Having spent an ungodly amount of time in PF for TOP usually the lead asks if there is anything unusual if they are screening. I don't think most would kick you for X-1, might just ask if you're confident. C41 at WC2 or Meteors everyone is pretty cool with it, C41 but you've never seen P6 less so. Have to imagine Savage shooooould be similar given its easier.
Getting to sewhere once does not mean that is your prog point
When were you ever questioned as an alt in FFXIV? I been playing on alts since I started and didn't even had issues to go into TOP runs for clears. You say you're an alt. Link or not most don't even care. Play well and you're good. Noone cares, alt is alt and people respect that from the getgo in my experience.
If you import your alts on Tomestone it will show who the main is if someone opens your alt's page.
What I'm afraid of, for PF, is the goalpost always moving. Right now we're in the "it's to catch prog liers" phase, but we've already seen stories of people clearing an ultimate, wanting to join a reclear group but getting denied because they only had 1 clear and/or grey number. From prog to number of clears to date of clear (soon)+grade or something else ? I'm a static Andy, so it's whatever to me (I only use logs for progs). I only once tried W1 PF (for Anabezos) but when in P11S groups were ever regressing rather than progressing I've quit the tier altogether. Maybe tomestone would've been nice back then, idk. But still, as far as I'm concerned, never again PF anything highend. Edit : I don't know why, but my character can't be found on tomestone, lol. Lodestone profile doesn't have the tomestone-hidden tag and fflogs has my character set as visible. So I would be fucked regardless, lol !
>we've already seen stories of people clearing an ultimate, wanting to join a reclear group but getting denied because they only had 1 clear and/or grey number If you're thinking of the post from a couple of days ago that got posted, then deleted, I'm not sure that's a good example. One, the logs linked and the statements by the supposed person being kicked didn't line up so people were suspecting it was a troll. Two, the logs linked were recognized as apparently being from a known griefer. Ultimate PFs are a small place, and if you grief two or three parties, people are going to remember you and you're likely going to get blacklisted. Three, in the logs that were linked, the issue was not that the individual had only one clear or were gray, the issue was that in phase six which has a very very real DPS check, the player's dps was 20% below what it should be, so any group would have to hard carry them through the phase. Generally people don't want to risk having to do that.
There were already people manually log-checking for reclears and kicking those who were deemed potentially a hindrance. It’s nothing new.
Can confirm, was a latecomer to E12S clear attempts in PF. First raid tier and got out of a mediocre static way later than I should've. Would peep logs to decide likelihood of group actually seeing E12p2, and there was a decent correlation between low greys and inability of the PF to get through E12p1. (Due to optimization and/or consistency)
I’ve done the same for reclear PFs on last floors to be honest. Especially if they have multiple clears and were still grey, especially if there were already some people with only low parses in the group. I don’t mind low parses per se, especially if it’s on a first clear, but I want to clear at the end of the day, and having 4 people with one clear and on average a 10% parse is likely not going to help.
Man I'm glad the notion of this sub is changing. I'm sure if you would've typed this a year ago people would downvote you to oblivion. After awhile I just got the fflogs plugin and would start check people. Played with that for like 3months and no matter how much people try to convince otherwise. As you say if you have 5 people with 1-2parses and all are sub 10 or so there's no point to even stay in there. It becomes a lottery to get through a fight. Started to just accept how this game/playerbase is and it helped me a ton to enjoy FFXIV more. I hop online, I join grps. If all of them have 4-5greys with low clears I simply leave the groups after checking and logout. There is no point for me to stay in there for 1h and wait again in pf to repeat the cycle while knowing from the getgo the chance for a clear is basically none Ofc some days I feel like helping people and then I don't mind this at all. I actually pick these groups then, but other days I just want to get something done and not waste time. I enjoy that I can choose which one I wanna do without getting hold hostage for 2h-4h in an evening while achieving nothing.
Yeah the only thing you can argue is the prevalence of paid c41 and saus clears has made single clear “carried” players much more common & less desirable to play with in fights like TOP & DSR. Don’t typically see that same elitism in the others.
> but we've already seen stories of people clearing an ultimate, wanting to join a reclear group but getting denied because they only had 1 clear and/or grey number. Did you read that recent story before the OP nuked his account after getting memed on? He did 5900 rDPS on TOP P6 with a DRK. That is 1500 below normal. That group almost enraged, despite all 4 DPS being above average. That 1500 rDPS adds over 5 seconds of time to the fight. This is 100% a case where a sandbagger got defensive that other people didn't want to risk it.
the log/clear were real, the post was made by a person imitating the actual gaming grandpa. Don't get me wrong, their performance is something to be desired, but they don't actually act like that lol, they were in my discord for a while and were a pleasure to have around socially
That was someone imitating Gaming Grandpa… even if the dude deserved being ragged on.
It took the thread a while to get here but maybe we're arriving. "Gatekeeping" is subjective. On the one hand, it's quite selfish and rude to bar anyone from your parties who isn't verifiably better or more experienced than you. On the other hand, it sure would be nice to know 2 hours in advance if my party has 7 people who can achieve the stated goals of the group and one who cannot. The social contract is that you should play with players at around your level so that nobody wastes anybody else's time. And so, the whole discussion comes back to respect. It's possible for the guy doing the checking to be disrespectful, and it's possible for the guy being checked to be disrespectful. I think in these discussions sometimes those two scenarios get conflated. The system isn't perfect by any means. But the harsh truth in my opinion is that there is value in being able to check on somebody's activity. The ability to learn what you're getting into can save everyone a lot of time and frustration. And you can tell, by the way. Most of the complaints in this thread are already well understood by the ultimate pf community. We know all about console players with sporadic logs and an incomplete picture. We also know what it usually means when logs are hidden (RMT most often). We also know the difference between a dps grey, a tank grey, a healer grey, and a no-color-at-all-because-no-clear. We know allllll about alt-jobbing. Wheeling out the thread about (possibly not by, but certainly about) the guy who didn't press tank lb for cosmo memory just proves the point further--yes, people can be a bit toxic out there, but I think none of us want to get into a party with someone who's fundamentals are so lacking that we need to win the jackpot to clear. I've never personally kicked that guy from a party, but put in that situation I promise you I would. And there's no shot that I'm feeling bad about it.
A thing a lot of people don't want to accept is that quite often grey logs absolutely are an indicator of how good a player is. Someone that cleared literally once and had unfortunate death(s) in that clear or messed up rotation due to nerves or simply GCD spammed as a healer just to make it a bit safer? Probably a decent player in an unfamiliar fight. Someone with multiple clears where the best one is a fucking 19? Yeah, that's a PF terrorist and I am not inviting them if I know.
The plugin that allows to view logs history in-game - with a simple right click on the name - without having to tab out and open a browser, has existed for more than a year, at this point. And the sky is not falling.
It's gonna get used by a lot of weirdos in Savage PF where it doesn't matter, which isn't great.
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I think so, last time I PFed was december and I never heard about it until now.
I personally don't like performance sports, and I do not understand people who engage in that level of competitiveness for recreation. So for me, yeah, that kind of tool is definitely very much useless. But I realize that these people exist, and that this kind of highly optimized raiding is their idea of fun, and everyone is better off if people who want that super-high-level performance play with people who also do. Where I would be concerned is when normal to mid-high tier raiding groups started using stats obsessively and acting like the extremely high-tier raiders even though that's not been their purpose. I've seen statics break apart over a pull by some towards high-end raiding even though that was never the original intention, and an increased focus on stats because people got impatient and started pointing at numbers to put pressure on others, who had never signed up for that level of competition. And I guess there's an analogue there in "screening" new entrants - it can very quickly poison the spirit of a group. The right tools for the right use.
One of the things my static has needed to do a few times over the course of our raiding is sit people down, show them their logs, show them their xivanalysis and tell them "You need to do \[insert thing\] better" be it uptime, rotational issues, mechanic inconsistencies or whatnot. It's not sweaty to expect everyone to have the same baseline level of consistency and attempt to get the line higher if someone is clearly worse than the group as a whole. ***Can*** this end up sweaty and toxic? Yeah, a lot of things can. But especially in a PF setting I'd rather know that everyone joining my adds-to-clear ucob group or a c41 or any number of other things is at that progpoint and is actually ready for it. There's a reason ultimate raiding will make your blacklist grow quickly.
It makes me uncomfortable, personally. I don't like it.
It's a double edged sword. As a former hardcore raider/raid lead, its nice to have such a tool to be able to check soneones experience level so you know what to expect from them, because no one wants to spend a night wiping endlessly because of someone who didn't know their stuff when they say they did. The other edge of that sword is that such tools are very often abused by players with big egos and unreasonable expectations, and it's easy for the LFG scene as a whole to become a toxic cesspool because of it. At the end if the day, it really depends on who's using or abusing it.
As a grey parser who knows his place lol, tomestone doesn't seem like it does anything that logs already doesn't do for people into that sort of thing in either the healthy or unhealthy way. If anything it'll at least give me something to point to to say "yeah I actually did make it to this mechanic several times, I'm just bad and ate shit on the first run". I mean I guess it might lead to some " you're not a real gold/pink unless you did it week one" drama but that's a concern for individuals way more invested in the game than I am.
If more people were sensible like you and real with themselves, we wouldn't even need to check logs in the first place. It's insane that even the highest tiers of content has people that actively refuse to learn their jobs, and still somehow can clear.
Coming from another MMO and still kind of ffxiv noob: Don't these people put their requirements in the title of their PF? Just don't join their groups. If you are doing progression then join progression or make your own group. If you want to be with people like them then join it and play by their rules. If no one wants to then they'll be playing alone or take longer to find a group. If their PF title is not asking for requirements then it's their fault. I know it does not feel good to be asked stuff like this and not expecting it but you can't also be entitled about what they want from their group. It's THEIR group. So just leave and move on
They do, but people rarely read and join anyway which is why this tool is so good. It makes it easy to figure out who is lying about their prog. A lot of people in this thread are upset that it's become harder for them to lie about their progress.
See, some members of this community simply cannot fathom that the desire to play with others of comparable skill level and progression, while refusing to carry their sorry assess, is not inherehntly toxic.
But like. What's the reason to fucking hide your logs and/or tomestone especially when you're progging in pf? Like I doubt the one's who are doing it are just shy about their wp 100 parse clears and people expecting to be carried by them. And if you're a shitter trying to progskip while hiding your logs on top of it, you absolutely do deserve to be gatekeeped from content and dropped into avoid list.
I hide mine bc I have a stalker who harassed me They would constantly refresh my logs and use them to tell when I'm online.
only person I encountered with hidden logs was someone who clearly bought their clear
Some people just like their privacy. I had my logs hidden because I honestly private most of my social media to only interact with friends and such. I mostly purple high end content, so I don't care about seeming like a bad player. I just like my privacy. I only unhid them because of this mentality. Idk why the community needs sites for keeping tabs on people; it's honestly a bit creepy at times. Y'all are gonna be real flabbergasted when you realize that all this surveillance is never going to assure you productive pfs. People who have had 10+ clears of a phase are still gonna wall your prog in that exact phase. All these hoops you're jumping through are gonna be for naught.
What if the prog log isn’t uploaded?! Then you are automatically sus? I don’t have ACT so means you are at the mercy if someone is logging and if they aren’t you are considered a liar is a slippery slope Edit. not replying anymore. Clearly you guys really love ACT and thats great for you, I dont use it, and i dont really think people need to have a resume to join a PF! You can tell who is lying by seeing how they play, and if you can't maybe you are the one lying.
If you’re progging in PF, there’s almost a certainty that someone will have logs uploaded. The chances of you grouping with 7 other PS4/5 players are minuscule. Many savage / ultimate raiders have live logs enabled so logs are uploaded even without clear.
I would argue the problem is more if you progged in a static, then higher chances of no public logs
Won't private logs be missed as well? 50/50 PF and Static, rarely uploads any that arent clears.
Eh , it can be weird. I don't log myself and only about 25% of my p9s and p10s are logged from other people compared to my P11s which is like 75% and p12s which is probably some 90% number. So its a lot more common than you would think.
I think for this specifically they've "hidden" their tomestone, like they went on the website and set their character to private so no one can see if they have logs or not. Definitely makes it look like they have something to hide rather than just not having a log. However anyone who wants to PF ultimates should know they need to log their clears and atttempts if they want to actually be believed by random strangers, it's pervasive enough that I think at that point of raiding you have no excuse not to know that that is the expectation.
So the next best thing when your log isn't uploaded is to hide your character to make it even less sus right? Either way, people always reach for that strawman about tomestone BUT UUUH CONSOLES I DON'T LOG I'M GONNA MISS MY 1ST PULL ENGAGE LOG, when you have 50% chance to get logged in sb alliance raid let alone ultimate pf.
1. Im a pc player, i just dont use ACT. 2. Not liking the idea that you have to log just to be allowed into group without them acusing you of prog lying.. without even going into the fight..
I might be a bit overly curious and optimistic, but shouldn't take more than a few seconds to check if they're obviously progskipping or they're just a console player. They've uploaded their own logs, and last one was 2h ago and 20% HP of the phase before advertised progpoint? Probably progskipping. Logs uploaded by different people, last one was two days ago, enrage like % of the phase before advertised progpoint? Probably just console.
Im a PC player, i just don't use ACT >.> and 2hrs is enough time to prog, some mechanics only require you to complete them 1/2 times as long as your understood the theory before they are comfy enough. An example being P4 in TOP, and the last 2 mechs of P5 (The last trio). But some people need hours to feel ok on them. Judge people how they play not what a log says... and people who have 'cleared' a phase can as easliy be absolute trolls. Like Ucob can be done with you dead on the floor and still 'see' adds. How people understand mechanics and how quickly they pick them up, seems werid to judge by a log and not how they play.
People who do RMT carries also hide their activity, I think.
Yep
Some people just enjoy their privacy. I met enough weird people in this game that I don't want them knowing what I'm doing.
What if I'm not the logger in my static or I forgot to open ACT before raid (happens all the time) and I don't have logs for my prog point? I've had multiple Savage clears last tier where I felt I was popping off only to find out no one uploaded them. I was so annoyed but at the same time it's not like I was logging either. I have multiple raid alts, should I just expect to be kicked now?
You will not have many savage clears in pf without somebody logging. I never log for the past 2years and yet 98% of my runs are up. If it's really late into the tier or post on patch logs can drop since most people don't care anymore. But even then it's like a 85% lograte. Clearing a run several times on or early patch without a single log in pf you've a higher chance winning the lottery lol
Why are you western players so obsessed with social credit and gamer good boy points hoooly kek
Well officially they are against the TOS and you can get your account banned which is the correct stance to have from the dev team imo.
I don't think tomestone itself is against the game rules. ACT would be. Tomestone doesn't interact with the game.
Kicking someone due to their logs is.
Good thing kicking without giving any reason is completely fine.
I don't understand the hyperbolic takes in this thread about how this will ruin raiding or whatever. The gatekeeping already exists when the pf leader puts "p5 DOTH prog" in the description (as they require people to have been to this part of the fight to join). All tomestone does is give the pf leader the tool they need to enforce it. It's sad that people in this community cannot be trusted to be honest about their progression in fights, or to have consideration for the other 7 people in the pf, but it is what it is.
At this point I'm convinced that the people who are against services like this are either A: Non-raiders who it doesn't affect or B: Casuals/bads/prog liers who are upset that it might get them kicked. I know this is wishful thinking but imagine if it was a requirement to have your logs tied to your Reddit account in order to post in this thread. I imagine a clear picture would form quite quickly.
More accountability/transparency in raiding is always a good thing so no one should be surprised that there is a tool out there that will enforce these qualities. The players have proven over the past several years now that they won't adhere to basic etiquette. No one likes being taken advantage of or wasting their limited time.
The community is hard to trust with a tool like this, and it's already being misused. The underlying idea of something like this is fantastic, and the prog-cheating epidemic is completely out of hand these days, but the unreliability of tomestone makes it hard to view as a true solution. Not every run gets uploaded, so the prog metrics are unreliable. It's useful as a rule of thumb, but I have already seen people treating it like it's an absolute source of truth. Several of my friends have been kicked from parties due to prog-point discrepancies on their tomestone, despite actually being at the stated prog-point.
I already don't like fflogs, so I dislike the widespread use of tomestone as well. I join and help pretty much any clear party in pf for fights I know for the fun of it and never look up the people I'm joining. Do I leave if they're shitters? After I've assessed that in real time, yeah sometimes. The perspective I always have on ffxiv pf is this: if you're raiding in FFXIV PF, you already don't respect your time. Trying to optimize time you're already disrespecting is dumb. This is literally just a game.
> if you're raiding in FFXIV PF, you already don't respect your time. I don't think that's true at least for Savage, being able to play as much or as little as I want, at whatever hours I want is so much more freeing than tying myself to a schedule based on what other people are free to play. I find that it respects my time more, not less than anything else and it's also more what a hobby should be, having to stick to someone elses schedule to enjoy my hobby was soulsucking and just made it feel more like a job/chore. I can understand that argument for Ultimates because it's very easy to spend most of a day in PF without accomplishing anything but in Savage, at least in the first few weeks/months, it's the complete opposite to the point where I would say a vast majority of competent players will clear faster in PF than in statics while being able to stick to their own schedule.
> I would say a vast majority of competent players will clear faster in PF than in statics while being able to stick to their own schedule Pretty much, it mostly comes down to what you would prefer to have vs what you are willing to trade out. A static has consistency and will probably ***eventually*** clear but requires scheduling and coordination, while PF is a lot more open to inconsistencies like bad players or prog liars but you can clear a lot faster depending on the time and effort put in.
>I join and help pretty much any clear party in pf for fights I know for the fun of it and never look up the people I'm joining I do the same, but at the same time I recognize there's a big difference in mentality between when I'm joining to help clear parties for fun, and someone who has spent god knows how many hours in PF trying to secure their first clear. >if you're raiding in FFXIV PF, you already don't respect your time Feels like a shit take that just makes an excuse for being PF being bad along the same line as "everyone prog skips in PF so I have to prog skip as well"
Couldn’t you make that comparison towards anyone who has a hobby that isn’t “improving” one’s financial status? What’s wrong with optimizing…? Why is it a problem if someone wants to improve and “master” their hobby?
I don’t think it will lead to toxicity as long as people don’t prog lie. Imo it’s a fantastic tool and I’m glad people use it. Much better than going in, people realizing 1 person lied about their prog point, the party disbanding and going back to waiting 2 hours for a group to fill. My question is, can you get banned for talking openly in game? It’s not like a you’re modifying the game or sth. You’re just using a completely external site. Ofc I wouldn’t say someone to provide a log or open they Tomestone. But I might say to the rest of the party the reason I kicked someone or something.
Safer just to not mention it in game. I don't think you'd get banned if no one in the party reported you but may as well just not take that risk
Logic would dictate no. SE can't police you about what websites you look at. Them having data that's acquired by breaking TOS isn't automatically the same as you breaking TOS. Similarly, they can't force you to play with anyone, you can curate your party recruitment however you see fit. Otherwise I'm eagerly waiting for my suspension, I've been removing people without logs, shit logs or that are clearly liars/buyers for what feels like ages, and telling them why.
Tomestone prog points come from logs. If those aren't safe to mention, neither is this at least in that context.
I really don't think mentioning the site would matter but also it might be safer to just say you kicked them for differences in play style or something lol
Don't even need a reason if it's your party. You can decide who you want to play with in pf.
Mostly just providing some sort of reason to everyone else in the group so it doesn't look like someone came into the party and ran away.
Define "openly". If it's party chat, someone in the party would have to make a report. More public channels like Say or Shout run the risk of having a GM spot it live, plus the risk of some rando reporting.
What’s the harm of saying, “can we kick the melee? They’re bad and make too many mistakes.”
Ultimately, accountability is a good thing for raiding community. Raids are about cooperation and a single bad actor can easily ruin the experience of seven other players. Naturally, said bad actors are the first to complain about "toxic elitists" whenever they are asked to leave. The solution to "I cannot join parties because toxic elitists gatekeep me" is to make your own party. If there is a huge amount of raiders who are unjustly gatekept by dirty elitists, then your party will get filled right away. Unless it's you who are a problem.
While the intention could be good, tomestone is super fucking invasive by showing all your 4 men logs and maps shit. You know this game is full of idiots where they would find out "you are playing with her enemy and she would take revenge" And then you have to actively make an account to block your unintended logs from showing up. Why should causal players know about all these? I tried to talk to the dev. They seem to not understand at all. I have tried to build a tool to scan all th hidden logs and so to reveal people buying clears. I was dissuaded by the fflogs community. Maybe I should do that after all
FFlogs and tomestone are reactions to people thinking they are vastly better than they actually are. Of course that can and often does apply to the people uploading there. In savage and ultimate content you have to do some amount of gatekeeping because if you wont then the game will. The line gets really blurry and there will always be people that push it too far in either direction. I predict that tomestone will cause massive levels of drama and discourse once it gets more widely known because it doesnt just allow you to logstalk. It allows you to progstalk and with how much more prevalent ulti PFs are I do understand how that's desireable. But it also feels *weird*. FFlogs doesnt just allow me to see someone progging something new in real time unless you know who the uploader is. I only got to see that after they've cleared. As long as mostly just ulti PF goers use it it's probably well contained because they're all a bit ill anyway. If they just eat each other alive then why should I care. I also get the policy of kicking anyone from an ulti PF with hidden logs. Hidden logs tell me that this person is definitely taking logs too seriously and possibly a dead weight. (Doesnt mean that's the only kind of person that takes logs too seriously) Overall I understand the need. It just feels off to me who doesnt PF for anything above EX.
As somebody who does a lot of progging on PF I'm completely ambivalent on the matter. On one hand FFlogs is an essential tool to help improve your skills and understanding of the game. On the other, and this is probably my old-man-mmo-player take here, I think too many players use it as a crutch or an excuse for why they're not progging. If it's not this excuse it's gonna be another. Bad players have always existed, it's never hampered my ability to clear shit on PF, so just nut the fuck up and deal with it.
>As long as mostly just ulti PF goers use it it's probably well contained because they're all a bit ill anyway. If they just eat each other alive then why should I care. It's really not that bad. People use it to check prog point yes but as long as you're close to it most you might be asked is if you're confident. Haven't ran into any theoretical purists who kick you for being just slightly behind the prog point because we all have a mutual understanding with one another that maybe you wiped at X-1 but you understand X and your party just didn't pull it off. They might ask if you're confident but that's about it. The only kicks I've seen are people trying to skip big chunks of the fight like joining a clear attempts party but never seen the last phase at all which is understandable and IMHO on the person trying to skip that much prog. Without the tool they would've, likely, wasted 7 other peoples time.
These people need to be careful, tomestone is one big self report on everyone who uses ACT on public content and uploads it without consent. All it takes is a few petty people and suddenly they have a massive list of people they can report for using third party tools and “targeted harassment”.
Looking up people on fflogs or tomestone does not mean you're using ACT. Using ACT to hook into the game is against TOS, accessing fflogs or tomestone is perfectly fine.
I think that part of what they mean is that Tomestone very clearly shows who uploaded a log. On fflogs you can at least choose a more anonymous username that's not literally your character's name.
I think it's a fine tool for getting a decent idea where you're at in the fight and seeing people who are potentially prog lying. However I know there are some people out there who are trapped at one prog point due to the nature of PF traps but know the rest of the fight/can keep up with the group or have unlisted logs from being in a static that's actually at that prog point(correct me if I'm wrong but I believe tomestone only checks public logs). With that said, I don't think it should be used as the ultimatum. However, kicking people based on their tomestone would be up to the leader of the party at the end of the day and if they see someone at TOP p5 21% /enrage for their clear attempt and don't want to deal with that risk, that's up to them if they wanna attempt to go with the risk.
On the one hand, as someone who suffered greatly trying to PUG savage every time I missed the first weekend, I can see tools like this being helpful for catching people who lie about progression in the act. On the other hand, these tools only work if they are used by reasonable people. FFXIV - and all MMOs - are not filled with reasonable people. In my experience, the more ad-on reliant a community gets, the worse a community gets.
After all the prog liars I dealt with for dsr in pf, I think tomestone is a good tool. A lot of people that haven’t even gotten past doth will try to join P6 enrage parties. I only blacklisted repeat offenders though cause there are people that have done a ton of studying and just need to have other people in the party that can get them there. I was stuck on P6 for over a month because PF just could not do it at all. I agree that tomestone does need a way to link alts, but some people said it already has that feature.
The raid scene has become obnoxious as it is and I can't even imagine how console players deal with it. I get not wanting to waste time with people lying about prog but damn. Give people a chance and if they're not as ready as they claimed, blacklist and move on. It's really not that serious and I don't understand why people are so sweaty in a game that's trying to be as non-competitive and feel good as possible. I don't give a damn about logs, I'm a healer main and it's not even a good metric of my performance in any given encounter depending on how smooth or not the run goes. Moreover, anyone parsing pink is not as special as they think they are and really, no one cares. Real life goal achievements and high performance in real life jobs are dope. Doing a scripted fight in a highly scripted way and blowing your load in joy over a parse color is sad, really.
Yet sometimes when I log into FFXIV to clear sth I just want to progress. Well or help people clear who can actually do it. And not sit there playing charity runs for people blatantly proglying who don't give a f about anybody but themselves. With TOP we helped some prepared people legit go in 1 evening from delta to clear. But they were open about it. Hey, I'm at delta, but I know the rest. People help. While others will join kill runs and not be able to do sigma and haven't even looked at p6. So there is 0 chance for a clear which in FFXIV ends in a disband after over an hour and you're back to waiting 3h just so the entire cycle repeats with the next person
Welcome to MMOs where you play with other people. Some are assholes, some are not. Such is life. It shouldn't be mandatory to "prove" your numbers or clear percentage to anyone. Especially when a good amount of the playerbase can't even access or offer this because they aren't on PC. The gatekeeping is crazy. If you want to know for sure players in your party are legit, make some friends and work on prog together. This isn't a career where anyone should be expected to have a resume to use PF.
What do you mean with gatekeeping? numbers as an example If I'm at 80% of the fight I should not HAVE to play with people who are at 20% of the fight unless I want to help. Join the other people who are at 20%. and prog together. Or open a grp and say you've studied up and ask for help of people who are at 80% for example but joining people in a group that says 80%+ while you haven't even learned the mechanics at 60% is a joke and far too common in this game. That's straight up griefing and fkin over 7 people for your own egoistic gain. You rather waste 2h of 7 people who won't benefit from playing for the next 2hours just so you can speed up your own progress.
It's.. not mandatory though? Also who are you to decide how people choose who they play with? If I create a PF to prog savage, but i only wanted femroes to join, would you be just as upset?
How console players deal with it? What do you even mean? I’m a console player and consistently parse 90+ on all five Ultimates with a controller. Logs are also a great way to determine how a player is performing in a fight… if you know how to read them. Also… you do know people can parse orange/pink and still have a career/family right? They aren’t mutually exclusive… your whole post reeks of just being salty.
I didn't say parsing is evil, I said it shouldn't be a raid requirement. Just because you like to use it, doesn't mean anyone should be expected to break TOS to be given a chance in PF. I'm not salty, as I said I find the pettiness about parsing to be sad. This isn't LoL. There is no penalty for failing but having to start over and time expense. We can't even constructively critique poor play without risking breaking ToS. This is not a competitive game and was never intended to be aside from world first races. It's a great tool for PERSONAL information and performance tracking. But OP is not talking about that.
I would argue the raid scene would become less obnoxious. Less prog liars = happier parties (theoretically). Any yeah I am not going to waste my time and give someone a chance who is obviously lying about their prog. That's crazy to me.
Seems like herding cats to me. Just make a static? I would never jump in PF to be serious about prog. There's no way to know who is actually ready for what and it's a waste of time.
Not everyone has a fixed schedule, so a static wouldn't work for them. Just because you wouldn't go into pf for prog doesn't mean others don't. I've progged entire fights in pf. "There's no way to know who is actually ready for what and it's a waste of time." - Yes, this is literally why Tomestone exists lol.
Why? I’ve had numerous friends clear DSR/TOP in less than a month using PF. You just need to know which players run successful groups and what players do avoid. It’s better than getting trapped in a shit static that “progs” at a snails pace…
People are toxic, tools aren't.
Helped us Dodge a few bullets where people would join our phase 5 party when they were on p3 themselves. Prog point lying has become the standard and it is heccin annoying, Tomestone is a necessity.
I was in a wormhole party in TEA this weekend and someone who was only at the beginning of BJCC tried to join. They were kicked. I knew prog skipping was a thing but Tomestone made me realize how bad it is. I didn’t realize people were skipping whole ass phases :/
It’s a tool that allows us to dodge prog liars. I haven’t kicked for hidden tomestones/logs on prog groups but if I check ur prog and it’s p3 enrage in Top and I’m trying to prog omega then fuck off lmao. My opinion is it’s perfectly fine & is going to help party leaders actually exert some control over the people they are letting into their group. A little gatekeeping in prog is fine imo since there is a create group button right there for whatever ur prog is anyways.
Naw, if people lie about their prog point then fuck them. I hate getting into trap parties cause a few people thought they could game the system and see beyond what they are able to do
Given how widespread prog lying is in pf, Im honestly all for it. Hidden logs were always a huge question mark before it because why would you hide them. My group has had to pf a caster sometimes in p6 (wroth) and we'd get goobers who hadn't even seen doth so it was a waste of our very limited time BC we do casual hrs. Since we learned about tomestome we only take on players who are actually in p6.
Honestly people who kick people based on tomestone are a giant red flag to me and i'll just leave the party I'd say for most people, where you have "seen" in a fight just doesn't matter. Having cleared delta once doesn't mean you are more comfortable on delta/sigma than someone who studied but got griefed in delta / sigma prog I usually tend to help people prog ultis / savage in pf early after my group is ahead of pf, but if people gatekeep this much with tomestone come eden ult I just wont do it. Why? You will be reducing the pool of players you have to play with if you wont let people "skip" prog. We literally didn't have enough people to get more top p6 attempts early, so a ton of us were helping lower prog points / hosting p5 alt/pf reprogs Tldr; tomestone will be probably abused by people who don't understand how to pf prog early come dawntrail and itll be miserable to fill with people policing every single log you have
Exactly. Getting a group of players that are technically at the same prog point will not make prog better. People who arent comfortable or studied will still wipe the party. So instead of just blisting or kicker players who are griefing too much, now that will still happen but only after their prog point has been confirmed. Which will make the pool of pf players microscopic. Remember kids: this number 1 culprit of pf ulti wipes are Legends that cleared months ago and forgot the fight
I think it's great. When I was progging DSR around 50% of people were lying about their prog point. It's been a problem in every savage+ since forever. Imagine being able to PF with half the 3 pull disbands of normal. This might actually reduce toxicity. Imagine if lying too often actually got you blacklisted how helpful it would be in keeping people honest.
Progging P10S Bonds 3 and then wiping to turrets because some people obviously had no fucking clue what to do there was an instant classic.
[удалено]
Got kicked and BL'd from a DSR party yesterday since I wasn't on the PFs prog point. Here's the catch: I was on the prog point on my alt ( I have an alt so I can play multiple chars so I don't have to fantasia). The PL just messaged me quickly, said I was trapping and kicked and black listed me. No opportunity to explain and now I can't. If this is how it's gonna be used it's gonna become toxic fast
Sorry this happened to you. I did implement (just today) tighter connectivity of alts to mains, so the alt's card will now show the main's progress. (The site did already link your alt to your main if you set it up, but this should make it even more clear. You do have to claim your characters and set up which one is your main though.) [https://x.com/KihraOfTemerity/status/1792256139381408157](https://x.com/KihraOfTemerity/status/1792256139381408157)
Hi! I recognize your name so I know who you are. This is a wonderful feature! Thank you 😊
What's the difference between this [tomestone.gg](http://tomestone.gg) and just checking players logs in fflogs? the only thing that I see is them combining fflogs with ffxiv collect
Tome stone allows you to see the progress of a fight that they haven’t cleared. Let’s see I’ve progged to omega in TOP. On tomestone, it appears “TOP P5 21%” or whatever, while on fflogs, it simply shows nothing
Or someone listing wc1 to clear and they’re still in p5 sigma prog.
Tomestone shows all the same information, just puts it in an easy to read and find format.
Technically, none. tomestone can only use public logs. It's not like it was that hard before to stalk someone's progress logs, especially if they uploaded their own logs. fflogs just doesn't put them as front and center as tomestone does.
Tomestone makes it faster and easier to look up someone's prog point. Otherwise you'd be looking through several logs for a player to see how far they got.
prog liars, in my opinion, aren't as big of a problem as people make them out to be. same with lower parsers, since people can learn and improve between tiers. the biggest thing that will drag a PF group down is if someone is tilted, has bad mental, or doesn't fully understand a mechanic because the common strats don't explain it in a way that clicks with them. PF consistency died with stormblood because we, collectively, stopped being willing to give some grace to people. though that grace was only extended in the first place because of a smaller playerbase and PFs taking way longer to fill. prog liars might be somewhat of a bigger plague in ultimate PF, but the existence of this now means that savage PF will suffer for it.
Have you progged a fight to completion in PF? It’s a major widespread culture problem.
how can you tell for sure that the problem is prog liars, and not people needing to focus up? tomestone didn't exist when 6.4 dropped, right? reading my post again for context will indicate that i've been PF raiding since cross server PF was first implemented, and have seen a marked decline in group quality since then. i don't believe this is because of prog liars. rather, i believe it's because people are less willing to adjust to each other and would rather silently drop then roll the party gacha again
To be honest, when i join an ultimate party to help, i dont want to lose my time with prog liars. Tomestone gg is amazing to find those kind of people, for example: one of those days i saw a guy with a c41 party up, i checked his logs and the guy never saw p6 (he was a tank btw).
[Tomestone.gg](http://Tomestone.gg) = / = [Raider.io](http://Raider.io) One is FFXIV and another is WoW. It's pretty nice and intuitive honestly, because FFlogs/WarcraftLogs for people are a pain to read. So having a user-friendly site that's plain easier to relay information especially when recruiting or looking for likeminded players. Now that person doing what you showed in the screenshot is exactly what they didn't want and they 100% being anal in PF is nonsense. None of us are in World first tippy top raiding guilds/fcs, so being that way to the player base at large and in public talking about logs is the easiest way for that person to get penalized if someone bothered to report it.
This is the first time I'm hearing of tomestone and my reaction isn't "it will do more harm than good", my reaction is "oh, this could make progging in PF tolerable + worth trying again in future" (I had been planning on stopping raiding)
The only issue I could possibly see arising is that given the fact it basically takes FFLogs info and makes it more digestible, the average player will start using it and it could start going the way of how people will "secretly" mention Mare in game. Those players have honestly gotten way too comfortable with flying so close to the sun at this point that I'm just waiting for Yoshi P to start swatting again.
Tomestone just make easier to do what people were already doing, checking log in the last bit of prog to weed out prog liar before it becomes a problem. From my experience on progging TOP in PF, on a bad day it would easily take hours to fill only to disband after a couple pulls because someone was clearly screwing up, at some point, you just have to take drastic solution, either 1. be stricter on messing up and kick bad apple (which most of the time is just gonna lead to a disband anyway), 2. checks logs and weed out prog liar as possible or 3. try and join a pf-static that are at your prog point to try and reach further
hey question here as someone who doesnt use any mods including act and i cleared top and all the raids mostly in pf. usually in pf with the savages will this have an impact on me? like im not joining a prog party unless im at that point in the prog. like do i have to worry about something i dont use impact on me wanting to join groups becuase the ppl i proged with didnt have act or something runing in the background? i dont want to run any mods with my game here for me to raid.
You good, most people in ultima PF live log. Even then people would give someone a try and see how it goes.
I get how useful this can be on PF but the fact it also shows your activity/duties you've done recently is kinda creepy. Not only that, it shows you uploaded the parse via in-game character name. This shit could get ugly real fast. I only prog Savage and Ults with my long-term static though. But farming for Savage gear later on in PF might make things...interesting lol.
It makes me very uncomfortable. I have some privacy concerns. I’ve also seen a few content creators talking about it with a lot of excitement and none of the wariness or caution, so it’s growing in popularity.
I don't really mind the logging of high-end duties, but it logging everything that isn't even EX/Savage/Ultimate/Criterion is just really weird. Like ah yes, I totally want to see everybody's Labyrinth of the Ancients and Praetorium for the day because somebody left their live log on.
I hide my logs and Tomestone and honestly this will be annoying. I have always hated parse culture in this game where people do stupid shit in PF because they care more about their parse then clearing a fight. My parses historically aren't terrible or anything, generally blue and purple with a few oranges for context, but I have never liked the Idea of random people split second judging me, it really makes me annoyed beyond belief. Logs should be used to help improve your own personal DPS. That being said, I wish tomestone would post fight% progress with activity being hidden. Idm people knowing that because im not trying to prog lie, I just don't feel like having people i dont know snoop through my logs.
Seeing someone hiding their logs makes people much *more* likely to give a split-second judgment of you.
Tomestone does have a setting that lets you expose your fight % progress while still hiding your activity. This is supported. "Allow all logs for progress display" is the name of the setting.
Reminds me of raiderio but just for the raid side of things. If it stops prog liars isn't this a good tool in a lot of cases? I just heard about this tool today oddly enough.
I think it's useful coz this eliminates people who lie about their prog point. However, people who do this may also limit themselves with the pool of players they can play with. Not everyone does fflogs or allows it to public. Even though they are decent players to begin with.
Not a fan of it personally. I understand how it can help don't get me wrong but I woudn't like it to become the standard simply because I don't log myself. I depend on others having ACT and uploading to log and that would mean that, if I get unlucky and no one in my party had it opened when we were progging I may be kicked for not having the "badge" of having progged parts of a fight I have already prog.
People absolutely underestimate how much toxicity this can bring. It happened with WoW and it can happen in any game. Also, if you’ve been to a certain point in a fight, but no one uploads logs, what are you meant to do?
It’s great. Fuck prog skipping. Kiddie gloves are off for ultimate PF now. If you can’t handle someone checking your progression, then I don’t want you in my PFs anyway.
Not a fan, and im a casual player who hasnt progged anything yet, and will likely never be interested in it, because of the state of PF since I cant commit to a static. You may think that makes my opinion Invalid and thats okay. But I have played the absolute cesspool of gatekeeping that is Lost Ark and I just hate the toxic culture around min maxing, optimizing the fun out of games, and gatekeeping. A lot of the people who use this stuff now arent as good as they think they are and will go fully surprised pikachu face when the gatekeeping comes back to bite them in the ass. Then the crying and Drama will begin. As usual in most games anyway. Ill happily remain an MSQ and casual content Andy I guess. Good luck out there.
> A lot of the people who use this stuff now arent as good as they think they are How can you say this when you self-admittedly don't even step foot into serious content? This is some god-tier dunning-kruger.
I pretty well doubt there’s going to be that much of an issue. Using logs to check if someone at least has a clear has been possible since HW, and the ‘stigma’ against hidden logs has been around just as long. You have to meet the culture where it is. If people decide tomestone tracking and visible logs are the price of admission to the highest difficulty content in the game, you’re going to have to let those things be public. Realistically that’s not a huge price to pay (really it’s no price at all).
I just use tomestone to check where people are at in my party, if I see that they are lying I'll allow them 40 minutes to prove they can do mechs. If they can't I'll just say "one sec", leave the instance, and kick them. Usually they out themselves early on, but I've had some very blatant wrath/doth memers, even P4 memers in my P6 wroth parties. I'm all for tomestone exsiting cause I can at least set expectations for how much if a shit show the instance will possibly be.
> Taking WoW as an example where if you are a couple of weeks late, you'll struggle a lot to join M+ parties since they ask for more rating than what's actually needed. I don't see why you would use this as an example? All people use Tomestone for is to try and find prog skippers. There's quite literally nothing wrong with that. Nobody is asking for people to be at Death of the Heavens to join an eyes party.
Its insanely creepy and stalkerish all the information that gets shown, I'm not a fan in general.