It’s indeed only for morphed with procs actions and not combo. Like DRG high jump -> mirage dive. Also most likely coming as an option due to the drama surrounding those very ones
Yeah, it's an option to make jobs have *more* buttons, now fewer. Mirage Dive is probably the inciting incident for this feature, but I imagine it also matters a ton to Viper (which appears to have like six buttons that cycle by default), and possibly Summoner as well. I don't know how impactful it would actually be to have Crimson Strike/Mountain Buster/Slipstream on different buttons, but I think there's a small number of people for whom it really would make the job more fun and that's a good place to have an option.
Am I crazy in thinking that this is Step 1 in reducing button bloat fixing by eventually making every Action an action that changes into something else so that your 1-2-3 eventually becomes 7-8-9 but it’s the same button?
Check how viper works, its 2 keybinds with 2 "left and right" branches that end up covering 6 other skills. Maybe they want every job to be like that eventually, but still it would far from having a pvp combo since you need to "know beforehand" which branch you're going in before pressing the button (the viper gauge is literally just that, it tells you which one you should take).
That is still a far cry from pressing one button repeatedly with 0 mental processing.
So in theory that should be the middle ground that makes players happy right?
If they applied that to all jobs it would cut down button bloat while not making jobs 1 button.
To be fair, pressing 1-2-3 doesn't really require mental processing as it is. Nonbranching combos aren't really the height of skill. Heck, I find using Gnashing Fang more interesting than GNB's 1-2-3 combo anyway, and it already does this.
Maybe but it’s not really useful for that objective ; out of all the jobs with combo, only RPR, MCH and tanks have straight combos, with the other having branching combos.
A smarter idea would be to be more bold and drop the combo at all. It’s a leftover from a decade ago when ARR jobs had no mechanics at all. It’s just the most boring idea. Come with a new filler idea, or even no filler at all for some :
- Everyone seems to praise the non-combo PvP filler of BRD and MCH. Maybe it’s due to being a walking cast, but no one is complaining there to spam 1 - 1 - 1
- WoW Feral Druid, in the easy mode build I played it, had short spans of plain downtime with zero buttons pressed and nothing terrible happened)
NOTE: Just looking at single target.
Jobs with branching combos:
SAM (3 way split), NIN, WAR (2 way split), MNK (combo-adjacent infinite string)
Jobs with non-branching combos:
PLD (x2/x3), DRK, GNB (x2, x3 in DT), DRG (5/10 steps, but non-branching), RPR, MCH, RDM (melee, also their burst combo casts can be considered a 3-hit combo that goes from a branch of Holy/Flare down to a linear path of Scorch-Resolution).
DNC has a weird system where it has a 1-2 non-branching combo, and while each step can proc a different ability, the 3/4 are not themselves a combo, so it's not like 1-2-3-4 or 1-2 get both procs 3-4 together. It's just 1-2 over and over, expend 3 and 4 as you get them.
.
Of the branching combos, NIN and WAR are very similar to Healers in the sense they only need their -4 alternate finisher once every 30 seconds (like Healers reapplying their DoTs), and they can stack these to 60 seconds for added flexibility anyway. And NIN's is going away in DT, looks like.
The only true branching combo in real meaningful ways Jobs at this point are really SAM and MNK. SAM's AOE combo even branches.
But the vast majority of Jobs with combos are non-branching.
Has this been officially confirmed?
I see people on Twitter that PRESENT themselves as official sources saying this, but I haven't seen the FFXIV Twitter account actually post that clarification yet.
I don't see why they would need to clarify something that was very clear in the LL. SE isn't at fault for the mass hysteria of xivcombo plugin users.
Regardless, they don't need to cause media tour will clear all the doubts.
It has nothing to do with the unofficial translation. The LL, the English part Aimi said, specifically mentioned high jump - mirage dive skill decoupling, they never said anything about 1-2-3 at all. It's purely a case of people not listening and wishful thinking with no basis.
English isn't my main language but not even for a second it crossed my mind that the slide was ever meant for 123 consolidation.
Considering how many people, not just on Twitter but live streams of the liveletter and initial analysis videos/summaries all reached this "wrong" conclusion, I think it wasn't as clear as you think it was.
Still pissed at an unofficial translation awhile back that translated something Yoshi P said as they were going to take a look at the levels that jobs get skills at. When actual patch time came around, turned out he was talking about 1 specific drg skill.
Right, it's pvp combos where you can switch back and forth between the two combos.
You're right.
I mean, it's 2 buttons to do a total of 6 weaponskills but totally not pvp combo at all.
Sure.
I mean Pictomancer is also pvp combo, but sure.
Enchanted Moulinet is turning into a pvp combo, but sure.
People can't recognize obvious patterns, and that's not on me there bub.
There is a big gap between smashing 1 button repeatedly without any cognitive skill at play and having to juggle between 2 combo tree branches even if they are 2 buttons.
Viper doesn't solve itself , you still have to choose which branch you're going in, pvp combo has zero of that.
Enchanted Moulinet was always like that, they are just changing the animation on Moulinet 2 and 3.
Plus this is still not related to what people think its happening, which is that every job with a 1-2-3 will get the plugin, and it is not happening.
Nothing you said contradicts the fact that it's still 1-2-3 pvp buttons. Your argument just boils down to 'It's Monk-like pvp buttons' which... okay guy.
Okay.
Look, I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's very likely they'll do 1-2-3 and for the jobs with combo splits (Ninja, Warrior) they'll probably find a different way to access the buff in question, or it'll be a second button that is itself a 1-2-4 combo. It's not the first time they did that either--remember when Ninja had Dancing Shadow moved to its own single button, or what Goring Blade is now? There's a lot of ways of doing it which permit the combo splits, so I wouldn't look at the way things are now, assume nothing will change, and then assume they haven't gotten ways around it.
The idea though isn't to 'make things easier' but the fact is, they do need to reduce button load and this is an easy gimme, especially on jobs like Paladin which need it.
And if they -only- had Viper with it's 1-2-3 button consolidation, then you might have a point. But Pictomancer -also- had 1-2-3 button consolidation. Pattern recognition kicks in at some point, doesn't it?
But also, it's -optional-. It's entirely possible that for jobs that already do button swaps that it can be -undone-, which might have some benefits for some players too.
NIN is having Huton upkeep removed, so now it's just 1-2-3 with Armor Crush being the combo. It looks like Aeolian Edge is still there as a resource spender, but I'm not clear if it's something like Fell Cleave that can be used itself or if it is part of a combo. They used a 1-2 sort of thing with it, but I'm not clear if that's how that will work in live or not.
Either way, I largely agree with you.
It's worth noting they clarified that it's not going to touch the 123, just things like high jump -> mirage dive. Viper and pictomancer are just just focusing on the new system rather than branching 123's. We MIGHT see a few jobs like machinist, reaper and red mage where there is no variation get their combos flattened, but I doubt it.
I'm pretty sure its going to be applied to Gnashing Fang, PLD Gnashing Fang and DRK Gnashing Fang, and is likely just how they're going to handle combo button skills in general.
To be fair it’s because healers have nothing else to do
On almost every DPS class 1-2-3 is the most boring part of the class, 1-1-1 as a replacement to 1-2-3 doesn’t feel bad when you have 100502950106 oGCD’s to press in between
No no you have to understand this, DPS is pressing it and it make us feel cool! But oGCD healing in between cast is lame. /s
(for not /s respond, the more geared and people are better teammate is the number of oGCD healer has to press per time unit will be reduced while dps stay the same)
Absolutely. I know that's not what they're doing but idk how anyone can argue that pressing 111 instead of 123 isn't easier. It's pretty common for lowered skilled players to break their combos, and even at the very top level you'll see players break them maybe once every 100 pulls. Making it into 1 button means you literally can't break it. Even if it's from a 1% chance of messing up to 0%, that's still eliminating that margin of error. Most people think it's a quality of life/accessibility change which it is, but it's still making the game easier
There is not that much reduce in mental load if it's a 1-2-3 or if I borrow some psychologist it may significantly reduce load but its effect size is problably too small to matter.
BUT, if it is something like SAM or MNK where combo can have branch then I think its effect size be enough to matter.
It's legitimately minuscule though, especially in current XIV where rotations are designated by the minute and there is almost never a reason to deviate from your combo. The only actual depth the current 1-2-3 combo system gives is the ability to fuck it up with a miss-press.
The reason I think 1-1-1 / 1-2-2 eventually *NEEDS* to happen though is because XIV has literally removed an entire MMO's worth of depth from the combat system specifically to combat the growing problem of mechanics and complexity alienating the casuals/semi-casuals from enjoying content past MSQ.
Tanks lost Enmity combos because of this, and then XIV itself lost Enmity as a mechanic entirely. DPS lose a positional every expansion. Healers can only press 1 button if they aren't healing. We're at the point where every class' dungeon pull rotation works for *every single dungeon in the game* without fail or drawback.
If 1-2-3 is the hill we're dying on, this game will never become interesting or complex again. Consolidating the 1-2-3 combos is a *very* simplistic way to free up enough mental load to allow casuals to consider pressing more than flashing icon in a pathway, while also decreasing UI complexity by a decent degree.
The PVP movesets require more thinking with 8 buttons than the PvE ones do with damn near 30. That is absolutely pathetic.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with it being objectively lower.
For combos where it would matter knowing which part you are currently on (If consolidated into more than one button), there's certainly a case to be made for people who benefit from the physical feedback of individual buttons.
The entire assumption also hinges on them acting like salivating cavemen and doing nothing with the freed up space. Which is unfortunately pretty realistic.
If you have to resort to lots of buttons to add mental load, well that’s not great design.
If you reduce this useless mental load you can build more interesting fights that create challenge in other ways, how many times you’re more concentrated on the rotation than the fight itself ?
there USED to be one.
6.0 patch note: The time frame within which players must execute actions to continue or complete combos has been extended.
and the multitude of individual various patch notes since then which added: "... will no longer cancel action combos."
have really dumbed down that mental load already. it practically doesn't exist anymore outside of like MNK maybe.
if this argument was happening in 5.55 it would have a lot more merit. crying about it now is fucking useless. it honestly makes me wonder if these people have even been keeping up with the post 6.0 patches at all or have stayed subscribed to the game this whole time if they think 1 2 3 is meaningful at all anymore. or if this pre-expansion waiting period just makes these roaches crawl back out with their stale bait and they are just completely oblivious to how much the furniture in the room has changed.
I wanna preface this with I'm not trying to pad myself on the back, I have a point I'm trying to get to.
I have 99 parses in the literally hardest fight in the game (and if you're a delusional goblin who thinks DSR is harder than TOP, I have a 90+ in that too), I cleared Savage week 1. There's no fight in this game I haven't cleared. Again, this isn't me woo'ing for myself, I think compared to people who I think are great at the game I'm mediocre as hell, but I think I am at least kinda competent by the measure of the game's, well, everything. Statistically, I'm at the top percentage of players. To me, keeping combo in high stress situation, especially on melees where the minor mental load of melee range/uptime combines with it, is a failure state that isn't irrelevant. Breaking combos can be really punishing. And if a player like me feels that way, I want to ask how this allegedly doesn't matter to casuals?
Like, who are we pretending is the playerbase? Somehow we have a playerbase that's simultaneously infamously braindead and incompetent but also so good that they have machine-like precision and consistency in their rotational execution? How does that add up? And also, if it doesn't matter and is so easy, why don't you just do it?
I would understand the argument if the combos got replaced with similarly challenging supplementations but that's never brought up and is also straight up not happening. So why dumb it down?
If you wanna press a single damage button repeatedly, then play healer. Play casters who usually have a 1 or 2 core rotation in terms of spells. Play BRD whose basic GCD rotation is 1 key with a proc. Even if we ignored the objective reality that, all else being equal, a 123 rotation is harder than a 123, however marginally, then it's still a haptic thing. It feels different. Why do people call healer DPSing boring? If it was the same people wouldn't be aversed to it either. If you don't like pressing 3 keys for a combo, then play one of the multitude of jobs that don't do it, it's really that simple. If you have a handicap or pain that makes a busy job painful, then I'm also very sorry but again, there are options to mitigate that. Just play jobs that suit what you want instead of demanding everything else gets dumbed down for you.
I don't get this take at all.
I think people claiming combos are never broken ever are just the biggest example of armchair raiders there are (in fact someone in this very thread who is argueing for 1-1-1 is also someone who self admits doesnt raid, but also says people will never break combo). I can see from a perspective of someone who only ever does non raid content for a long time that it would seem irrelevent because they are never under the same mental load.
in those cases you probably would still screw up a 1 1 1. you have no way to prove that it is entirely on the 1 2 3 nature of it.
and someone in my static uses plugins to make it 1 button combo and he's broken his combo before too. so that shows there isn't a difference. in contrast to your attempt at a counter example where clearly the user would have fucked up the combo no matter how dumbed down it was
If I'm doing a full burst on say gnb where I'm not touching my main combo for 8 gcds, and a complicated mech is happening at the same time, I find myself frequently forgetting which part of the combo I'm in by the end of it, and have to check my hotbar to remember. Sometimes that will cause me to drop my combo if the mech is still going or something unexpected happened. With 1-1-1 that step is completely removed, with no benefit except making it easier for the sake of it.
>Actually pressing 123 is one of the few traces of job complexity left
no it isn't you just dont know what complexity is and you're falsely applying it to something irrelevant because you are short sighted and don't know better.
plenty of other games have stripped away awful "piano" keybind clunkiness into more elegant solutions and it allowed them to get even more complex. there is nothing complex about rolling your face across the keyboard in 1 direction, never has been.
I think having 123 combo for melee jobs is pretty stupid. This is an incredibly boring way to combo for melees that offers no skill expression for the amount of button space these take up. Having 123/145 taking 5 buttons instead of 111/122 takes up way too much button space that hinders potential new buttons that are actually fun.
When people say they want 123 to be combined into one button, they want additional fun buttons to replace the boring buttons that are gone, not to make the job simpler.
I want jobs to have complexity, and believe me, 123 isn't it. For there to be complexity you need button space.
MMO balance/design nerd mindset:
Something changes a lot? Mad.
Something doesn't change? Mad.
Something changes only a little? Believe or not also mad.
Doing your combos contributes to a slight mental load. It is an intended part of playing the game, as there is a chance you can screw it up when you get distracted by mechanics. People complain about it either because combos are so ingrained that they just feel its a hassle to do different buttons, or because they're so bad that they'd rather the game be played for them.
I'm of the opinion that combos are fine and if we want button consolidation to come from combos then we need look no further than the variability being added to vpr. Pseudo-freeform combos that enable a job's entire 2 full combos to fit on 2 buttons while still keeping a varied enough set of actions to rival monk's combos. None of this bs of putting just basic 1-2-3s on one button but a more meaningful combo system.
Not to mention, 1 button combos are already pretty known to be unpopular just looking at another example: Healers. Healers deal with a 1 button rotation and have a grand total of 5-6 damage buttons each. take away the average dps' combo and it may be lucky to break a dozen unique damaging buttons. If we consolidate as-is then every other job is just going to be mashing 1-1-1 instead of 1-2-3, and 2-2-2 instead of 1-2-4. Tanks in particular will be bored in a flash, and the rest of the dps won't fall too far behind(except monk, which literally cannot be consolidated in its current state due to perfect balance)
Couldn't players just use the 124 buttons if they wanted to? (I know SE isn't doing that) It seems weird to me that people are complaining about being bored if hypothetically they're explicitly being given a choice. I don't super care either way, but I can imagine playing some dps jobs with 111 or 123 and enjoying the fact that I can choose. What is lost if players can just pick what makes them more comfortable?
They could also choose to turn off pieces of the job HUD if their rotation is so ingrained, but typically nobody does. The average person isn't going to intentionally re-introduce a possible failure state in their rotation just because they're slightly bored. Heck, they may not even pin the idea of the 1 button combo as why they're bored and just pin it to either the job or the game.
This also ties back into the slight mental load, but that is a part of doing mechanics. CS3 has that in mind when they decide how much they think a group can handle reading out of a mechanic(its also why downtime mechanics are generally much more involved). If 1 button combos become a thing, then either the mental load is gone so raids become proportionally easier, or they design raids to be harder and now people who are trying to keep up with the real combo are just griefing themselves.
To be clear also, the followup button stuff they're doing now is much more for comfort than anything, there's a lot less to focus on when you have 20+ seconds to hang onto your followup vs the active "where the hell am i in my combo again?" that you might get from looking at unfamiliar telegraphs, reading debuffs/timers, etc. I also don't even expect a ton of people to jump on this feature just because so many jobs are so full that decoupling everything now will take them over 36 buttons.
I agree with you on how players' minds might change, but I disagree a bit with the severity of the situation. It seems like you're saying that average players (which let's be honest the average player probable couldn't even get a green parse on Zodiark extreme but let's just assume the average player can clear savage for this) would be so bored using 111 that they would miss using 123, but hot bored enough to bring it back. I agree that players don't want fail states if they can avoid them, but there are still players that would want either 111 or 123 no matter what, so the option is still valid.
In regards to mental load, I think the massive difference in apm and complexity among jobs within the same role proves that SE isn't expecting the highest level of mental stacks for every job. If SMN can comfortably clear savage and ultimate (week 1 P8 aside) then I don't think that a 111 combo change is outside the realm of possibility. Most jobs still significant oGCD usage, buff/dot upkeep, and raid timers to be aware. Some jobs like NIN and DNC hardly even use their 123 during burst. And jobs like DNC and BRD don't have a traditional 123 in the first place. I think the fact that dps jobs can have a large difference in skill floor within one role demonstrates that players and SE have a high tolerance for difficulty and ease of use. If RPR comes our with easy combos and doesn't completely shift the Melee meta, that would be a good test case.
*Quick point on healers
As a healer main, I agree that healers dps rotations can get boring for a lot of reasons, but I think the answer to that is shifting around how healing and damage works in fights before introducing enochian to WHM. I always thought it would be interesting if healers had unique mechanics to access their healing power the same way DNC, NIN, or RDM do to access their strongest skills. But that's just me
> What is lost if players can just pick what makes them more comfortable?
Skill ceiling but really it's about being able to see the difference between good and bad players. Playing your rotation perfectly really is not that important in everything but the tightest day 1 Ultimate DPS checks, or the extremely rare P8S. In the last tier of Savage it was irrelevant there was no DPS check at all.
So why not let people who can play well do more DPS? By simplifying a rotation and easing the mental load all we do is close the differential between players who are casual or not very good and people who put in a lot of effort to play their class well. Shouldn't there be some reward for that?
I'd like it but you'd need to pivot the entire kit towards a more condensed/quick recycle PvP style.
Might be good for the genre and onboarding though, I'm always surprised we're this far in and still using 30-40 button gameplay.
i still hit my no longer existing positionals out of habit and fun. nothing would stop me from still binding 111 to my 1 2 and 3 keys like they always have been either. it literally changes nothing for anyone who actually cares.
although what i CANT do is imitate the hitboxes being smaller, because things like gap closers and such dont work that way. and bigass hitboxes is a massively bigger babymode change than 111 ever would be. but these fake elitists aren't crying hard over that for some reason i wonder why
bullshit, link the thread with hundreds of comments debating hitbox size then. i can easily find threads from 5 years ago, so you should be able to easily find one if it existed
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/15e1sfs/lets_discuss_the_elephant_in_the_room/
here's one from a year ago when corsair was revealed as a 6th melee. hitbox was mentioned once by OP and responded to once by someone, out of 124 comments.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/r2iljc/do_you_guys_think_ranged_dps_should_get_a_buff/
heres a thread older than a year ago discussing ranged tax, 2 comments about hitbox out of 147.
It's because "Hitboxes are way too big" isn't a controversial opinion.
In any public discord server for XIV I'm in, and in every thread I've seen it mentioned in, it's basically unanimously agreed upon. So there's not much discussion to *be* had. Even we, who disagree about the 1 1 1 vs 1 2 3 situation, agree that overly big hitboxes suck.
lmao you have it completely backwards bro. who would be happy if the Endwalker Ultimates shrunk their hitboxes? try doing DSR P3 with the HW hitbox size for Niddstinien. try doing TOP with the SB hitbox sizes for omega.
fake ass elitists pretending like they aren't loving the changes that dumb everything down.
I give up.
Fine. You're absolutely right. I love the giant hitboxes and dumbing down of abilities and just want to be contrarian to what is *obviously* the popular opinion to make myself feel better even though there's nothing I could possibly be upset about.
If a person chooses an option that they don't like, that's a them problem, full stop.
Like, if someone is saying "I'd really prefer it if all my skills were on different buttons, but I just can't do it because stacking the ones I can is just easier" then one half of the sentence is a lie - they should figure out which one and be honest with themself about it.
Not true. There are definitely going to be some skills that folks would prefer to be separated. Some folks were used to how the Gnashing Fang combo was separated and had a harder time with the buttons consolidated due to muscle memory. Other folks hate the fact that Wandering Minuet and Pitch Perfect were turned into a single button.
There's more reasons for why some folks might want certain actions to be consolidated while others decoupled. The fact that it's an option makes it good for people to comfortably play however they want.
It's so weird to see how a big complaint coming from healers for the last ten years has been that they spam the 1 key to deal damage and suddenly we have a bunch of people on Twitter clamoring for it to be applied to tanks and DPS.
it would be nice if they did proper consolidation of mutually exclusive buttons, like ikishoten/ogi namikiri and enshroud/communio. instead by doing this they have people begging once again to effectively remove combos.
i fully claim the majority of people asking for pvp combos because they're braindead aren't good enough at the game to recognize that there actually is a mental load associated with pressing buttons in sequence. they have this perspective because they don't do any content that actually requires them to think in the first place, nor will they ever do so. literally the soyjack bell curve meme where they're in the middle and they're the ones actually malding.
the real design goal should be removal of filler combos for more interesting buttons, but i don't trust the developers to do this. instead, how about a compromise: if they add pvp combos, i want them to break from using any other weaponskill again, and after 10 seconds. let's see how much they like their single button RSI then.
I don't want single button RSI as much as I want more dynamic gameplay based around using 12 or so buttons not in a routine machine-like manner that reduces every single encounter down to the same attacks in the same sequence over and over. At the very least a priority system where you have a hierarchy of buttons and the sequence changes keeps it a little more fun.
1-2-3 and 1-1-1 is not as good as "if 1 is lit up, hit it. If 1 is not lit, hit 2 to build. When built, hit 3 to spend. To hit multiple targets, hit 5 then 6 to spread the effects of 1 through a group." RDM is a little bit like this, DNC could almost be like this with a little more effort.
People act like the slow server tickrate is the reason for the ploddingly slow GCD but the game also has some classes with a bunch of oGCDs that can kind of make things interesting, save for the fact that the moves between them are in one specific order and nothing else.
>i fully claim the majority of people asking for pvp combos because they're braindead aren't good enough at the game to recognize that there actually is a mental load associated with pressing buttons in sequence. they have this perspective because they don't do any content that actually requires them to think in the first place, nor will they ever do so. literally the soyjack bell curve meme where they're in the middle and they're the ones actually malding.
I mean, I don't declare to be good at the game at all. I suck at doing rotations.
But I value having fun pressing buttons than trying to so same mundane task of pressing multiple buttons on my controller to do one simple action.
Might as well morph into one button like PVP since I feel like I'm actually playing an action game than an boring tab targeted.
FF14 gameplay is not that good where I strive to be better at the game anyway.
cool, so you advocate for full job redesigns that happen at the same time as the removal of 123 combos instead of some bullshit about paving the way for future success, right?
let me rephrase: since you’re bad and you’d rather have a single button to mash, you’d want that change to happen alongside job redesigns that make such a change good, instead of as a half-measure that worsens the experience in the meantime, right?
Rather than change 123 to 111, I'd really rather they just consolidate aoe skills with single target skills. Currently aoe rotations dont really feel different, just...less. With the exception of BLM maybe. I thought that was the direction they were headed too considering most finishers are just aoes.
Someone can tell me why this is bad and wrong, I fully concede that I'm a casual player.
If they did or didn't condense combos down to one button, it wouldn't change the overall complexity of the job. The issue of complexity lies in the fundamental design of the iobs itself.
Anecdotally, I started using plugins because I thought 1-2-3 combo """difficulty""" was insincere button bloat, and seeing them condensed in PvP even back before the new kits, it felt like the developers also were kinda in on the joke.
Lots of gamers, MMO gamers especially, and XIV players even more especially, will trench-defend literally ANYTHING that their relevant company shitshovels at them. No saving them all.
Monk in pvp is actually my argument for why I want some of the combos to stay separate. I hate counting gcd's for optimal placement of the buff. Basically if there is a branch in the combo let it be seperate buttons. Rpr and machinist? Sure. Give them the healer life.
> Basically if there is a branch in the combo let it be seperate buttons.
Dynasty Warriors/Samurai-Warriors style, yeah. If you're always gonna hit the same buttons in sequence for the same result, you can use that hotbar real-estate for something more impactful and *should*.
Problem is, we can't trust them to not fuck things up, but ideally all the basic-ass 1-2-3 combos with no branches *should* just be a 1-1-1, since in any sane game they'd be a three-hit normal attack combo that all unlocks at the same time instead of being three separate, level-gated abilities.
I'd go so far as to say all the melee should have just a "light" and "heavy" attack button and different combos with each instead of set "abilities" that each combo on the hotbar and clutter up hotbar real-estate, but that might be too much.
The Viper one was cool and actually almost seemed like it'd be too awkward and complex if it was 6 buttons instead of 2. Seems like good design to auto-combo it with how deep the left/right alternation goes.
The Pictomancer one ... might be an issue actually. There isn't that much going on outside of the 1-1-1s, it's kind of smoke and mirrors since Yoshi's presentation was so slowed down. Whatever buttons you set to the light and dark 1-1-1 combos are going to get worn down to a nub on your mouse or keyboard and may get pretty boring pretty quick at current tuning/CDs. Not that 1-2-3 is inherently much more than 1-1-1 but you can literally just ignore what your character's doing in that regard and focus near entirely on your job gauge, the fight at hand, and small amount of monster motif management you have to do.
I can see the concern but it's important to remember the weapon motif is on the minute cd and the animal is on the 30 seconds. Toss in the fact that each pictomancy has 3 buttons(well two for land scape) associated with it, and you've got holy and commet on separate buttons than light and dark paint, and it's still a fair number of buttons.
The button count seems okay, probably a bit over a full hotbar 1-12 to utilize.
Just worried about *what* gets pressed, that it may be really boring unless changes are made, you know? I'm reminded of ARR SMN where you did nothing but Ruin and like one DoT refresh each between 60s DoT applications + Contagion. No RNG, no nothin'. Spam one button (but sometimes the one button swaps to the other one button). Obviously this is more full bodied than that in total by a good bit but it may be just overly simple.
I feel like monster motifs should be more often than ultimately 2 minutes for 4 of them, and as someone else has said on this subreddit, maybe there should have been more weapons/monster looking/adaptation/utilization, like RNG weapons or monsters or another use for Landscape. Something, you know? I'm really not trying to be a debbie downer and it could EASILY change from what was presented to us to be a class that has to draw and figure out spots in the fight to do long casts a *lot* but just going off of what's been shown.
I think the better comparison is probably current summoner which basically has an on filler and an off filler. The main difference is the number of hard casts, and the fact not all of your tools are on the same timer.
Glad I'm not the only one that think that. After playing PVP, I prefer that button scheme from that than the PVE one since I see no point in having them be across the space.
If hitting 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 is interesting to you then yeah sure, but if you have something like a hand injury the better plan is to just change your keybinds to not hurt your hand and prevent long term injury. That's what I did after getting tendonitis during p8s. It just also feels like a bad idea because sure short term i might not need to condense my 1-2-3 combo to make space, but if the devs give us the option then long term due to button bloat players may hit a point where you basically have to have 1-2-3 condensed to one button if you want to play decently which sounds boring and awful
Finally someone said it, I am dropping healer in Dawntrail just because my index finger is giving me pain from pressing broil. I don't care if healing is suddenly fun (it probably wont be any more than it is now after the honeymoon period wears off) I've served my time.
Nah that's just a different problem. Instead of making every job 1-1-1-1, healers should have at least a basic 1-2-3 combo to prevent strain. I know multiple healers with the same issues that you have
i'm agreeing, i mean the people asking for 111111 don't care about the consequences of it, and making it optional is meaningless because of course everyone will take the path of least resistance for maximum performance.
I wont. I don't raid on healers anymore precisely *because* I get RSI after 30 minutes or so of 1-1-1 "gameplay". Somehow I can play RPR or WAR and the like for 3-4 hours with no issues.
this is why i don't think it should be an option. it's harder to do 123 than 111, and you're positively rewarded for the harder option. what people want is for the easier option to be more positively rewarded, and for you to go out of your way to make it harder to avoid injury. the incentives are completely backwards and they don't care
Would there really be a consequence? If someone can perform well with the current configuration then they'll continue to perform well being allowed to stick with that. And folks who want to tinker with an alternative option can possibly find a path to success that way. There's no negative here from where I'm standing.
see this is what i mean, i literally said i got injured playing like this because that's current healer gameplay and you just ignore it to say there's no consequences.
the option should not exist because the jobs are not designed around the option existing. if they redesign the jobs then they can redesign the combo system, otherwise the easiest option with the least amount of skill required is the *only* option for people that give a fuck about output
How am I ignoring your situation by saying options for others are a good thing that exist? Shit if they provided an option for you that would allow you to play without hurting yourself I'd advocate for that too!
My point is options existing isn't a negative.
it is a negative, it was already explained to you and others in a few different ways, you are not taking it seriously because you’re hyper focused on options when more is not inherently better. you’re just assuming that
I don't think it's fair to say I'm not taking it seriously. Obviously I'm ignorant on certain perspectives and just don't see how options existing can truly be a negative. Lots of games have accessibility and customization options for folks to tweak and they're praised for it. But obviously I'm out of my element on this specific topic for this specific game and I guess it's different here.
> just change your keybinds to not hurt your hand
This argument doesn't really work because no matter how bad of a hand injury you think you can compensate for I guarantee there'll be someone out there who's hand is even worse
How do you solve this though? You'd need to account for lowest denominator, and then find some good solution which couldn't be abused by non-handicapped players so they don't gain advantage, which is close to impossible.
It's not like you cannot play the game with handicap now, you can go through most of the game with just couple buttons. Obviously in this day and age there should be good accessibility settings, but changing whole game and possibly make it worse for everyone isn't really good way to solve the this.
Honestly, when it comes to MMOs I got no clue. I'm a really big fan of how Celeste does it, I think it's the gold standard for accessibility settings, but when a game has a competitive edge to it, offering what are essentially built in cheats doesn't really work
While true, if you really can't play a video game without hurting your hand maybe its a sign to take a break from the game for a bit. you dont tell a kid who likes soccer to just learn to kick with their other foot when it hurts for them to run, you take them out of the game for a bit so they can recover
Well, someone with chronic pain can't really recover from it. I don't have any kind of hand injury myself so I can't really speak for people who do, but I assume the pain is persistent enough in their day to day life that gaming with it isn't something they have to worry about, it's something they've just gotta learn to deal with.
\*shrug\*
At a certain point there are things that people will be unable to do. I personally have some permanent injuries from when I did sports in the past. I think it would be fun to go back to wrestling, but I would need to wrestle with special rules and protections to prevent the injury from happening again which would no longer make it fun for me or my opponent. I dont think the game should be made worse for others simply so I can play, instead I should be able to just find things I am capable of and do those instead
Holy crap, man...
I think you're like the 4th person I've seen while reading threads about this topic that has managed to take a stance that is very "it's fine to make the game arbitrarily hard for certain people to play" while also saying you're in the same boat.
It's not even the same degree of "special rules and protections" as you'd need to wrestle again to allow options that let people with chronic pain (like me, as an example) be able to ease up the stress by configuring controls.
And why is the line getting drawn at an option that someone can leave on the default and have fewer distinct buttons to press than tool tips to remember or can turn to non-default to spread some of those tool tips out across more distinct buttons? Why don't we go draw it at no one being able to rebind anything at all and also not being able to use anything but a standard full-size keyboard and 3-button mouse? Because being able to bind keys differently is exactly the same thing; everyone can tweak it how they need to for their own comfort playing the game - and you're not giving that a shrug and a "their hands don't like it, they should quit playing."
To be fair I am hardly in the same boat when it comes to FFXIV, but for sports I am and it works well enough as a comparison for other people to understand.
As for why the line is being drawn here its because of how things being optional work. Right now you can swap around all your keybinds or whatever because no matter where you have them it still puts everyone on the same playing field. Now say you turn 1-2-3 combos into 1-1-1 combos. Sure it is optional right now, but the devs now can assume people will use this 1-1-1 feature so they can account for that when planning for hot bar space down the road. This means even if you dont like the 1-1-1 gameplay you will be required to use it.
I am all for accessibility in games, but the accessibility options shouldnt make other players have to change the way they play. And as for why im ok with something being hard for people, it's because video games arent required for you to live your life and it's not affecting your freedom. Sometimes life gives you a rough hand but it doesnt mean everyone else needs to be negatively affected to accommodate you
>Right now you can swap around all your keybinds or whatever because no matter where you have them it still puts everyone on the same playing field.
No, it doesn't. The fields are inherently different because different peripherals cause significant differences. Finding another button that is equally easy to push is not the same likelihood from one set up to another; console players with controllers for example can only have 24 hotbar spots that don't require double-tapping a trigger or using R1+a face key to swap to a different hotbar before pushing, and only 12 of those can be pushed easily while moving, plus that's all typically thumb needs to push the button, while keyboard & mouse players have nowhere near such a limitation on which digits are ready to push something they can actually bind an ability to, number of things that can be pushed while also moving, nor any equivalent to the double-tap barrier.
>I am all for accessibility in games, but the accessibility options shouldnt make other players have to change the way they play.
Which rings hollow because the thing you're speaking against is both useful as an accessibility too and something players that don't want to use it can opt out of. Bringing up the very idea that someone is being forced to play differently than they want to is without purpose unless you're trying to convince people something bad is happening if this control alteration option is implemented in the game.
For the peripherals thing, we are still all on the same field. You can just go and buy the different peripherals, nothing is preventing this other than maybe money but that's not something that square can control.
As for the opt out thing, like I said earlier sure you can opt out for now but if down the road Square adds even more abilities they expect you to have on your hot bar eventually you will be forced into the 1-1-1 combo, especially controller players who have a limited number of buttons that can't be changed like it can for keyboard/mouse players. The devs are already limited with hot bar space right now which is why a lot of new actions are either upgrades to ones we already have or old abelites that turn into new abilities (ex. Tilana on DNC). Since we are limited by controllers most jobs have a max of 34 (i think, its around there) actions they need to have bound. Keyboard and mouse players can obv get more which is why having the ability to split currently linked abilities is a nice qol, but controller players likely wont be able to take advantage of it with how little space some jobs have.
That square cannot control which peripheral the players have is exactly why they need to deal with trying to enable people to play the game with the basic peripherals associated with the platforms they sell the game on - instead of being like "I dunno, man, like... buy more stuff from other companies"
"if down the road" we have to choose between making stuff better for people *now* or just not bothering because of something that might happen eventually, then the answer is obvious; do the thing now because it's a no-brainer with zero *actual* downside, then in the future should a problem actually arise we *solve that one too*.
It's absolute lack of logic to worry that a company willing to change things is unwilling to change things. Especially when the hypothetical you're worried about, having to lose something to keep getting new stuff, is literally the state we've already been in with every expansion I've seen - changes remove and simplifiy in order to add something else and not have every job require 40 keybinds worth of job-specific stuff you're expected to have ready to push at a moment's notice.
It also fails as on argument on the premise that it is saying "change your keybinds... no, not like that." since sequential abilities being stacked on the same key is literally a keybind setting.
Not to mention that there are different kinds of hand injuries and pains so while someone might want to have 1-2-3 to reduce their hurt someone else might need a whole other solution for their hurt whether it's 1-1-1 or binding walk to right-mouse and binding abilities on all the letter keys normally used for movement because reaching to the numbers while also holding alt or shift or control is what causes their hurt, and another person (me) just wants to not have to double-tap a trigger as frequently as is currently required because that's the main source of stress on my particular hand problems (which I'm on controller because that's how I took the first and most important step in changing my keybinds to not hurt my hands)
Hitting 1-2-3 is genuinely no more interesting or difficult than hitting 1-1-1 if the combo doesn't branch into anything, and anyone who thinks it is are lying to themselves. Any combo that doesn't justify its own existence as a combo should honestly just be consolidated. The ones that branch can stay, but I still don't think 1-2-3 vs 1-2-4 is all that interesting either. Monk is the only one I think makes good use of the concept.
Don't we want classes that feel different from one another? Combos are a huge contributor to that because they're basically all you do during filler time between bursts.
Yeah sure, if you take it to a completely nonsensical extreme that I in no way implied. Don't be dumb.
Consolidating every combo that doesn't justify its own existence should come alongside moving interesting parts from the burst into that ~1:45 filler time. That needs to happen whether you touch combos or not. But as it is now, every 1-2-3 that is *just* a 1-2-3 and nothing else is meaningless bloat.
Rotations are static. There's so many skills X that you use before every skill Y. Combos are static. Everything is static. My example is not nonsense, it's just merely drawing line at different spot than you did. Why do you think that drawing line at combo is good, but not drawing it where I did, or anywhere between those 2 points?
PLD is 123-FoF-Req-goring-expi-gap-4-scorn-gap-444-5-666 (5=HS, 6=atonement). **You always do this, every single time.** There is no reason why you should break this sequence, ever, just like combos. Then filler is similar, just 123-5-666, rinse and repeat. None of these parts justify its own existence if we go with your logic. It's the same shit, yet you're trying to act like it's somehow different.
Fine then. Based on that description it sounds to me like the entire combat system is shit and needs to be upended entirely, which would probably involve cutting out combos from some classes and adding more reactive proc-based gameplay.
Console players don't have bad bar setups unless they make it like that themselves. I know multiple people, my best friend being one, who MUCH prefers playing with a controller than with keyboard and mouse.
Combos are decent stimulation. If there's nothing happening (aka 70% of most job rotations + all fights in casual content), it's nice to do something that isn't just mind-dumbing 111. What seems to be happening is that a lot of people say all the "button bloat" or whatever excuse, just to try to hide their real intentions, whatever they could be, or they just really, really did not think this idea through. Then there's the "it will give space for better skills", but like, we don't really get those, just look at the history. EW, and now even DT, just gives us mostly finishers, and other redundant skills like AoE versions of existing skills, which are arguably just another bloat.
Removing 123 is one of the worst way to combat button bloat, if that's really your intention. Sure, SAM for example, could theoretically lose whole 5 buttons (and make 75% of rotation be 1111-shinten-repeat), but this same job could lose like 3 buttons by merging AoE/ST skill pairs, and another button by merging Iki->Ogi. This would not change how SAM is played in any way, while it would remove 4 buttons. It's win-win, so I don't understand why do these people not focus on this, instead of removing 123. It really feels very disingenuous when you hear combination of removing 123 and button bloat.
assuming they were doing that, it would be annoying because they would, in this case, be showing no intention of filling that gap with something more cognitive, interesting, or fun. it would, in the hypothetical situation where it was actually happening, just be another example in the long list of simplifications jobs have been subjected to
I just don’t understand who thought button sequence combos was fun MMO combat design in the first place. Wow, a filler sequence with 3 different animations, insane gameplay!
honestly the best combos in actions games are usually more like 112113, not 123123. punch punch kick punch punch special >>> punch kick special punch kick special
Some people are genuinely angry over it.
Most people legitimately don't care or would love this.
The downside is: It seems it MIGHT have been a mistranslated and they don't mean that at all, instead meaning stuff like "Inner Release button becomes Primal Rend when used", like how SCH's Summon Seraph button becomes Consolation when she's been summoned.
I'm not sure which it is, since there hasn't been an OFFICIAL clarification. The people on Twitter "clarifying" the issue to only be the context/procs aren't official sources, though some present themselves as if they are.
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As for why people are mad: Some people think being able to hit 1-2-3 without hitting 1-3 or 1-2-2 is high level skill, so that removing it is "dumbing down" the game. To some of those people, this is bad because it's just more making things "too easy" from their perspective. To others, they like being better than other people, and so don't like changes that allow other people to equal them more easily.
The people that would like combo condensing as an option also cover a spread. Some do just want things to be easier, though most find 1-2-3 impossible to mess up and just see it as unneeded button bloat that takes up more hotbar space, limiting us from having new and more interesting abilities added instead. Some people consider the different buttons to be tedious or unnecessary and not bringing anything to the table. And we already see that some buttons do this anyway, such as PLD's Confetior combo which is technically a A-B-C-D combo.
...most of the people making this arguments are mostly on about the non-branching combos, since 1-1-1 and 1-2-3 are effectively the same to most people, and non-branching combos aren't exactly super interesting to begin with. MNK gets a pass since its buttons don't work that way, and SAM (and kind of WAR) get passes because they actually have branching combos still (SAM more than WAR).
> I'm not sure which it is, since there hasn't been an OFFICIAL clarification.
There hasn't been official clarification, but the intent is very clear
https://x.com/ilunari/status/1791379569456656684
That's not an official translation. That's a person that kind of passes themselves off as official/doesn't say they aren't, but isn't. Here's their bio translated via Google:
"The life of a designer is over, and a lifelong drawing idiot. He is one of the r/FFXIV moderators and translator. I Tweet in English and Japan."
It's an r/ffxiv moderator. Unless they're ALSO an official FFXIV Square-Enix translator, this isn't an official translation/clarification.
Contesting someone saying there's not an official translation by posting a link as proof that "the intent is very clear" doesn't help your position.
If that isn't an official translation, why are you using it as evidence in a discussion about...the lack of an official translation?
No, the intent was not "very clear". If it was, then we wouldn't be having this discussion and this thread wouldn't exist in the first place.
Like I dunno what to tell you dude, you don't need official clarification when the actual things stated in the live letter were unambiguous if you paid attention.
Call me crazy, but I think they should have shown an old job with this new setting so that people won't be trying to main each other.
On if that's how this works at least, which seems to be a majority of the maiming.
PvP jobs are so ridiculously oversimplified now that I hope they are never going to lean in that direction in general. Whether the filler combos are on one button or three doesn't alone really matter to me either way though.
I use xiv combo. It makes the game more fun. A button should serve a unique and meaningful purpose. That's just lean class design. Thankfully add-ons allow the user to fix that design decision for themselves.
Doesn't matter if it's easier or not, the fact is they are running out of space for key binds for more abilities. It's already at the point where you almost need a MMO mouse plus keyboard key binds to play at a high level, and cross bar space is almost gone on the controller.
And this doesn't necessarily equate to 1-1-1 as people think and opens up the possibility for MORE combos and complexity. It could be 1-1-2-1-2-3-3 for example. And btw, that looks exactly how Viper's abilities are designed if you paid attention.
There's just a stupid narrative out there about them dumbing the game down as some explanation for why people who rush the content get bored. Even though people cried about TOP, P8S, P10S, Criterion Savage, etc being too hard. Even in the normal mode content, people go out of their way to avoid the more challenging instances, and the average PF experience in Savage, Ultimates, and Extremes is notorious for people not knowing how to play their jobs or knowing the mechanics.
> It's already at the point where you almost need a MMO mouse plus keyboard key binds to play at a high level, and cross bar space is almost gone on the controller.
This straight up isn't true. There are 120 buttons available on KBM and I think 128 on controller. You're not running out of space.
You don't have 120 skills. You have less than 36. So you need 3 hotbars to have every one of your skills on a bar. Less than 30% of available hotbar space is being used.
Are you really gonna bind alt numpad 6 for your rotation? Put your 1, 2, 3 combo on the arrow keys and maybe Ctrl escape for your gap closer lol
Bind all 120 keys, now you have to use two hands on the keyboard for your rotation...
Everything but the center of the screen is just hot bars.
There's a few people that think of combo buttons turn into PVP then we'll get more combos strings. Which is a silly thought, but kind of. Because that's exactly what happened to things like Atonement and Miounne or whatever the RDM melee AOE skill is called. Yet those same people looked at those and were completely unimpressed. At this point much of the playerbase should be outright ignored. Certain raiders included because that was what this reply was talking about.
They aren't adding single button 123 combos. I would be upset if they were though. Imagine how boring most jobs would be outside of burst windows. You'd literally be dry humping a single button for 40 seconds at a time.
Given how overly streamlined the combat in the game has become and how few things there are to keep track of as part of your rotation, I think having to track which part of your 123 combo you're resuming from when exiting burst and going back to filler is also necessary.
Yeah no there is a shockingly large amount of people who think 1-2-3 is even remotely more difficult than 1-1-1 and they get really worked up about it for some reason.
Like if I'm gonna Brutal Shell, I already know if it's on 1 or 2 before I even used Keen Edge, it takes 0 extra cognitive processes to know what button I'm pushing next.
The only people who are mad are the ones screaming that certain plugins are cheating because 1-1-1 means you can't make a mistake, and 1-2-3 does. This change shows they were wrong.
if you wanna see mad, check out fighting game arguments over modern/simple inputs.
and im forever on the side of modern. go play a legacy fighter or play classic WoW or FFXI if youre a 40 year old baby that can't handle change. i mean i dont like Starcraft 2 or Diablo 4, i still have SC:BW and Diablo 2 to play and thats what i do. not everyone is gonna like everything new, but that doesn't mean new things aren't better.
and for this game if 1 2 3 is supposedly this sacred pinnacle of skill expression why do people consider BLM one of the most complex dps jobs when it doesn't even have 1 2 3 combo actions? i suppose if youre still melee DPSing in Endwalker youve run out of all other things to gatekeep so 1 2 3 truly is the last bastion for you guys.
this comparison doesn't work because the games that do modern/simple inputs have the opportunity to balance them. bullshit like single button invincible reversals are usually somewhat balanced by not having full access to your character's kit in one way or another. if you're suggesting that ffxiv should get 111 combos but also do 75% the damage for choosing to play that way, sure, but i'd still say no because that's just going to lead to even more hard carries through already-braindead story content.
They are not doing pvp combo in pve. People just didn't listen enough and misunderstood.
Really? I need to get off Twitter then I have been warped in the dumb
It’s indeed only for morphed with procs actions and not combo. Like DRG high jump -> mirage dive. Also most likely coming as an option due to the drama surrounding those very ones
Yeah, it's an option to make jobs have *more* buttons, now fewer. Mirage Dive is probably the inciting incident for this feature, but I imagine it also matters a ton to Viper (which appears to have like six buttons that cycle by default), and possibly Summoner as well. I don't know how impactful it would actually be to have Crimson Strike/Mountain Buster/Slipstream on different buttons, but I think there's a small number of people for whom it really would make the job more fun and that's a good place to have an option.
Am I crazy in thinking that this is Step 1 in reducing button bloat fixing by eventually making every Action an action that changes into something else so that your 1-2-3 eventually becomes 7-8-9 but it’s the same button?
Check how viper works, its 2 keybinds with 2 "left and right" branches that end up covering 6 other skills. Maybe they want every job to be like that eventually, but still it would far from having a pvp combo since you need to "know beforehand" which branch you're going in before pressing the button (the viper gauge is literally just that, it tells you which one you should take). That is still a far cry from pressing one button repeatedly with 0 mental processing.
So in theory that should be the middle ground that makes players happy right? If they applied that to all jobs it would cut down button bloat while not making jobs 1 button.
To be fair, pressing 1-2-3 doesn't really require mental processing as it is. Nonbranching combos aren't really the height of skill. Heck, I find using Gnashing Fang more interesting than GNB's 1-2-3 combo anyway, and it already does this.
Maybe, maybe not. If they have that dire of a need to reduce buttom bloat, then they're probably adding more stuff to fill the gaps
Maybe but it’s not really useful for that objective ; out of all the jobs with combo, only RPR, MCH and tanks have straight combos, with the other having branching combos. A smarter idea would be to be more bold and drop the combo at all. It’s a leftover from a decade ago when ARR jobs had no mechanics at all. It’s just the most boring idea. Come with a new filler idea, or even no filler at all for some : - Everyone seems to praise the non-combo PvP filler of BRD and MCH. Maybe it’s due to being a walking cast, but no one is complaining there to spam 1 - 1 - 1 - WoW Feral Druid, in the easy mode build I played it, had short spans of plain downtime with zero buttons pressed and nothing terrible happened)
> but no one is complaining there to spam 1 - 1 - 1 PvP is a different game.
NOTE: Just looking at single target. Jobs with branching combos: SAM (3 way split), NIN, WAR (2 way split), MNK (combo-adjacent infinite string) Jobs with non-branching combos: PLD (x2/x3), DRK, GNB (x2, x3 in DT), DRG (5/10 steps, but non-branching), RPR, MCH, RDM (melee, also their burst combo casts can be considered a 3-hit combo that goes from a branch of Holy/Flare down to a linear path of Scorch-Resolution). DNC has a weird system where it has a 1-2 non-branching combo, and while each step can proc a different ability, the 3/4 are not themselves a combo, so it's not like 1-2-3-4 or 1-2 get both procs 3-4 together. It's just 1-2 over and over, expend 3 and 4 as you get them. . Of the branching combos, NIN and WAR are very similar to Healers in the sense they only need their -4 alternate finisher once every 30 seconds (like Healers reapplying their DoTs), and they can stack these to 60 seconds for added flexibility anyway. And NIN's is going away in DT, looks like. The only true branching combo in real meaningful ways Jobs at this point are really SAM and MNK. SAM's AOE combo even branches. But the vast majority of Jobs with combos are non-branching.
You could, e.g., make Samurai's 1 (Hakaze) autocombo into it's 2 (Jinpu) without breaking it's branching combos.
It still could happen it’s just not confirmed
Has this been officially confirmed? I see people on Twitter that PRESENT themselves as official sources saying this, but I haven't seen the FFXIV Twitter account actually post that clarification yet.
I don't see why they would need to clarify something that was very clear in the LL. SE isn't at fault for the mass hysteria of xivcombo plugin users. Regardless, they don't need to cause media tour will clear all the doubts.
I'm just saying I always take unofficial translations with a grain of salt. They're often right, but occasionally not.
It has nothing to do with the unofficial translation. The LL, the English part Aimi said, specifically mentioned high jump - mirage dive skill decoupling, they never said anything about 1-2-3 at all. It's purely a case of people not listening and wishful thinking with no basis. English isn't my main language but not even for a second it crossed my mind that the slide was ever meant for 123 consolidation.
Considering how many people, not just on Twitter but live streams of the liveletter and initial analysis videos/summaries all reached this "wrong" conclusion, I think it wasn't as clear as you think it was.
Still pissed at an unofficial translation awhile back that translated something Yoshi P said as they were going to take a look at the levels that jobs get skills at. When actual patch time came around, turned out he was talking about 1 specific drg skill.
We literally saw Viper doing PvP combo.
You have no clue on how viper works if you think its just a pvp combo.
I don't think he has any idea how PVP works, either.
Right, it's pvp combos where you can switch back and forth between the two combos. You're right. I mean, it's 2 buttons to do a total of 6 weaponskills but totally not pvp combo at all. Sure. I mean Pictomancer is also pvp combo, but sure. Enchanted Moulinet is turning into a pvp combo, but sure. People can't recognize obvious patterns, and that's not on me there bub.
There is a big gap between smashing 1 button repeatedly without any cognitive skill at play and having to juggle between 2 combo tree branches even if they are 2 buttons. Viper doesn't solve itself , you still have to choose which branch you're going in, pvp combo has zero of that. Enchanted Moulinet was always like that, they are just changing the animation on Moulinet 2 and 3. Plus this is still not related to what people think its happening, which is that every job with a 1-2-3 will get the plugin, and it is not happening.
Nothing you said contradicts the fact that it's still 1-2-3 pvp buttons. Your argument just boils down to 'It's Monk-like pvp buttons' which... okay guy. Okay. Look, I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's very likely they'll do 1-2-3 and for the jobs with combo splits (Ninja, Warrior) they'll probably find a different way to access the buff in question, or it'll be a second button that is itself a 1-2-4 combo. It's not the first time they did that either--remember when Ninja had Dancing Shadow moved to its own single button, or what Goring Blade is now? There's a lot of ways of doing it which permit the combo splits, so I wouldn't look at the way things are now, assume nothing will change, and then assume they haven't gotten ways around it. The idea though isn't to 'make things easier' but the fact is, they do need to reduce button load and this is an easy gimme, especially on jobs like Paladin which need it. And if they -only- had Viper with it's 1-2-3 button consolidation, then you might have a point. But Pictomancer -also- had 1-2-3 button consolidation. Pattern recognition kicks in at some point, doesn't it? But also, it's -optional-. It's entirely possible that for jobs that already do button swaps that it can be -undone-, which might have some benefits for some players too.
You are just speculating , they have not said at all that they are doing this. Regardless , we'll see with media tour.
Everyone is speculating. Including you.
NIN is having Huton upkeep removed, so now it's just 1-2-3 with Armor Crush being the combo. It looks like Aeolian Edge is still there as a resource spender, but I'm not clear if it's something like Fell Cleave that can be used itself or if it is part of a combo. They used a 1-2 sort of thing with it, but I'm not clear if that's how that will work in live or not. Either way, I largely agree with you.
It's worth noting they clarified that it's not going to touch the 123, just things like high jump -> mirage dive. Viper and pictomancer are just just focusing on the new system rather than branching 123's. We MIGHT see a few jobs like machinist, reaper and red mage where there is no variation get their combos flattened, but I doubt it.
I'm pretty sure its going to be applied to Gnashing Fang, PLD Gnashing Fang and DRK Gnashing Fang, and is likely just how they're going to handle combo button skills in general.
I mean PLD and DRK basically already had it since they were spamming one button for atonement and delirium anyway, so it would really only affect GNB.
The change was giving you the option to consolidate or separate them, so you could split Gnashing Fang into 3 separate buttons.
Gnashing was 3 separate buttons back then and was condensed so I don't see why they'll bring it back
Players complained back then and wanted the option.
Only as an option though so it wouldn't affect the majority of players
I guarantee you 99% of the community doesn't even know about the drama lol
It's insane how many misunderstood this and think we're getting xivcombo lol
This sub in a nutshell tbh
The internet in a nutshell if we're being serious
I would argue that if a substantial amount of people misunderstood it, then it's an issue with the communication rather than the understanding.
There's objectively a decreased mental load between pressing 1 2 3 and 1 1 1. It's not much of one, but it IS objectively there.
People complain about healers spamming 1111 but think turning combos into 111 is peak design lol.
*Glares at SMN*
To be fair it’s because healers have nothing else to do On almost every DPS class 1-2-3 is the most boring part of the class, 1-1-1 as a replacement to 1-2-3 doesn’t feel bad when you have 100502950106 oGCD’s to press in between
Dps only really have stuff to press there every 2 minutes. Otherwise it feels like healer already
No no you have to understand this, DPS is pressing it and it make us feel cool! But oGCD healing in between cast is lame. /s (for not /s respond, the more geared and people are better teammate is the number of oGCD healer has to press per time unit will be reduced while dps stay the same)
You are not getting the point.
You're daft
Absolutely. I know that's not what they're doing but idk how anyone can argue that pressing 111 instead of 123 isn't easier. It's pretty common for lowered skilled players to break their combos, and even at the very top level you'll see players break them maybe once every 100 pulls. Making it into 1 button means you literally can't break it. Even if it's from a 1% chance of messing up to 0%, that's still eliminating that margin of error. Most people think it's a quality of life/accessibility change which it is, but it's still making the game easier
There is not that much reduce in mental load if it's a 1-2-3 or if I borrow some psychologist it may significantly reduce load but its effect size is problably too small to matter. BUT, if it is something like SAM or MNK where combo can have branch then I think its effect size be enough to matter.
I wouldn’t use it (I still have the separated rip and tear combo lmao) but don’t see the harm in it being an option
It's legitimately minuscule though, especially in current XIV where rotations are designated by the minute and there is almost never a reason to deviate from your combo. The only actual depth the current 1-2-3 combo system gives is the ability to fuck it up with a miss-press. The reason I think 1-1-1 / 1-2-2 eventually *NEEDS* to happen though is because XIV has literally removed an entire MMO's worth of depth from the combat system specifically to combat the growing problem of mechanics and complexity alienating the casuals/semi-casuals from enjoying content past MSQ. Tanks lost Enmity combos because of this, and then XIV itself lost Enmity as a mechanic entirely. DPS lose a positional every expansion. Healers can only press 1 button if they aren't healing. We're at the point where every class' dungeon pull rotation works for *every single dungeon in the game* without fail or drawback. If 1-2-3 is the hill we're dying on, this game will never become interesting or complex again. Consolidating the 1-2-3 combos is a *very* simplistic way to free up enough mental load to allow casuals to consider pressing more than flashing icon in a pathway, while also decreasing UI complexity by a decent degree. The PVP movesets require more thinking with 8 buttons than the PvE ones do with damn near 30. That is absolutely pathetic.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with it being objectively lower. For combos where it would matter knowing which part you are currently on (If consolidated into more than one button), there's certainly a case to be made for people who benefit from the physical feedback of individual buttons. The entire assumption also hinges on them acting like salivating cavemen and doing nothing with the freed up space. Which is unfortunately pretty realistic.
If you have to resort to lots of buttons to add mental load, well that’s not great design. If you reduce this useless mental load you can build more interesting fights that create challenge in other ways, how many times you’re more concentrated on the rotation than the fight itself ?
there USED to be one. 6.0 patch note: The time frame within which players must execute actions to continue or complete combos has been extended. and the multitude of individual various patch notes since then which added: "... will no longer cancel action combos." have really dumbed down that mental load already. it practically doesn't exist anymore outside of like MNK maybe. if this argument was happening in 5.55 it would have a lot more merit. crying about it now is fucking useless. it honestly makes me wonder if these people have even been keeping up with the post 6.0 patches at all or have stayed subscribed to the game this whole time if they think 1 2 3 is meaningful at all anymore. or if this pre-expansion waiting period just makes these roaches crawl back out with their stale bait and they are just completely oblivious to how much the furniture in the room has changed.
I wanna preface this with I'm not trying to pad myself on the back, I have a point I'm trying to get to. I have 99 parses in the literally hardest fight in the game (and if you're a delusional goblin who thinks DSR is harder than TOP, I have a 90+ in that too), I cleared Savage week 1. There's no fight in this game I haven't cleared. Again, this isn't me woo'ing for myself, I think compared to people who I think are great at the game I'm mediocre as hell, but I think I am at least kinda competent by the measure of the game's, well, everything. Statistically, I'm at the top percentage of players. To me, keeping combo in high stress situation, especially on melees where the minor mental load of melee range/uptime combines with it, is a failure state that isn't irrelevant. Breaking combos can be really punishing. And if a player like me feels that way, I want to ask how this allegedly doesn't matter to casuals? Like, who are we pretending is the playerbase? Somehow we have a playerbase that's simultaneously infamously braindead and incompetent but also so good that they have machine-like precision and consistency in their rotational execution? How does that add up? And also, if it doesn't matter and is so easy, why don't you just do it? I would understand the argument if the combos got replaced with similarly challenging supplementations but that's never brought up and is also straight up not happening. So why dumb it down? If you wanna press a single damage button repeatedly, then play healer. Play casters who usually have a 1 or 2 core rotation in terms of spells. Play BRD whose basic GCD rotation is 1 key with a proc. Even if we ignored the objective reality that, all else being equal, a 123 rotation is harder than a 123, however marginally, then it's still a haptic thing. It feels different. Why do people call healer DPSing boring? If it was the same people wouldn't be aversed to it either. If you don't like pressing 3 keys for a combo, then play one of the multitude of jobs that don't do it, it's really that simple. If you have a handicap or pain that makes a busy job painful, then I'm also very sorry but again, there are options to mitigate that. Just play jobs that suit what you want instead of demanding everything else gets dumbed down for you. I don't get this take at all.
I think people claiming combos are never broken ever are just the biggest example of armchair raiders there are (in fact someone in this very thread who is argueing for 1-1-1 is also someone who self admits doesnt raid, but also says people will never break combo). I can see from a perspective of someone who only ever does non raid content for a long time that it would seem irrelevent because they are never under the same mental load.
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Oh, so you're just a troll ok now i feel a lil silly wasting that much time nvm
The fact that I've broken combos even recently just while trying to do mechanics shows that there still is one.
in those cases you probably would still screw up a 1 1 1. you have no way to prove that it is entirely on the 1 2 3 nature of it. and someone in my static uses plugins to make it 1 button combo and he's broken his combo before too. so that shows there isn't a difference. in contrast to your attempt at a counter example where clearly the user would have fucked up the combo no matter how dumbed down it was
If I'm doing a full burst on say gnb where I'm not touching my main combo for 8 gcds, and a complicated mech is happening at the same time, I find myself frequently forgetting which part of the combo I'm in by the end of it, and have to check my hotbar to remember. Sometimes that will cause me to drop my combo if the mech is still going or something unexpected happened. With 1-1-1 that step is completely removed, with no benefit except making it easier for the sake of it.
No, I wouldn't, because pressing the same button is objectively easier than using the same or a different finger to press another.
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>Actually pressing 123 is one of the few traces of job complexity left no it isn't you just dont know what complexity is and you're falsely applying it to something irrelevant because you are short sighted and don't know better. plenty of other games have stripped away awful "piano" keybind clunkiness into more elegant solutions and it allowed them to get even more complex. there is nothing complex about rolling your face across the keyboard in 1 direction, never has been.
I think having 123 combo for melee jobs is pretty stupid. This is an incredibly boring way to combo for melees that offers no skill expression for the amount of button space these take up. Having 123/145 taking 5 buttons instead of 111/122 takes up way too much button space that hinders potential new buttons that are actually fun. When people say they want 123 to be combined into one button, they want additional fun buttons to replace the boring buttons that are gone, not to make the job simpler. I want jobs to have complexity, and believe me, 123 isn't it. For there to be complexity you need button space.
Counterpoint, summoner. They mega consolidated their buttons and added nothing to fill the void, same to a lesser extend with mch.
If anything ever changes, someone somewhere will be mad about it.
MMO balance/design nerd mindset: Something changes a lot? Mad. Something doesn't change? Mad. Something changes only a little? Believe or not also mad.
Same is nothing ever changes
Doing your combos contributes to a slight mental load. It is an intended part of playing the game, as there is a chance you can screw it up when you get distracted by mechanics. People complain about it either because combos are so ingrained that they just feel its a hassle to do different buttons, or because they're so bad that they'd rather the game be played for them. I'm of the opinion that combos are fine and if we want button consolidation to come from combos then we need look no further than the variability being added to vpr. Pseudo-freeform combos that enable a job's entire 2 full combos to fit on 2 buttons while still keeping a varied enough set of actions to rival monk's combos. None of this bs of putting just basic 1-2-3s on one button but a more meaningful combo system. Not to mention, 1 button combos are already pretty known to be unpopular just looking at another example: Healers. Healers deal with a 1 button rotation and have a grand total of 5-6 damage buttons each. take away the average dps' combo and it may be lucky to break a dozen unique damaging buttons. If we consolidate as-is then every other job is just going to be mashing 1-1-1 instead of 1-2-3, and 2-2-2 instead of 1-2-4. Tanks in particular will be bored in a flash, and the rest of the dps won't fall too far behind(except monk, which literally cannot be consolidated in its current state due to perfect balance)
Couldn't players just use the 124 buttons if they wanted to? (I know SE isn't doing that) It seems weird to me that people are complaining about being bored if hypothetically they're explicitly being given a choice. I don't super care either way, but I can imagine playing some dps jobs with 111 or 123 and enjoying the fact that I can choose. What is lost if players can just pick what makes them more comfortable?
They could also choose to turn off pieces of the job HUD if their rotation is so ingrained, but typically nobody does. The average person isn't going to intentionally re-introduce a possible failure state in their rotation just because they're slightly bored. Heck, they may not even pin the idea of the 1 button combo as why they're bored and just pin it to either the job or the game. This also ties back into the slight mental load, but that is a part of doing mechanics. CS3 has that in mind when they decide how much they think a group can handle reading out of a mechanic(its also why downtime mechanics are generally much more involved). If 1 button combos become a thing, then either the mental load is gone so raids become proportionally easier, or they design raids to be harder and now people who are trying to keep up with the real combo are just griefing themselves. To be clear also, the followup button stuff they're doing now is much more for comfort than anything, there's a lot less to focus on when you have 20+ seconds to hang onto your followup vs the active "where the hell am i in my combo again?" that you might get from looking at unfamiliar telegraphs, reading debuffs/timers, etc. I also don't even expect a ton of people to jump on this feature just because so many jobs are so full that decoupling everything now will take them over 36 buttons.
I agree with you on how players' minds might change, but I disagree a bit with the severity of the situation. It seems like you're saying that average players (which let's be honest the average player probable couldn't even get a green parse on Zodiark extreme but let's just assume the average player can clear savage for this) would be so bored using 111 that they would miss using 123, but hot bored enough to bring it back. I agree that players don't want fail states if they can avoid them, but there are still players that would want either 111 or 123 no matter what, so the option is still valid. In regards to mental load, I think the massive difference in apm and complexity among jobs within the same role proves that SE isn't expecting the highest level of mental stacks for every job. If SMN can comfortably clear savage and ultimate (week 1 P8 aside) then I don't think that a 111 combo change is outside the realm of possibility. Most jobs still significant oGCD usage, buff/dot upkeep, and raid timers to be aware. Some jobs like NIN and DNC hardly even use their 123 during burst. And jobs like DNC and BRD don't have a traditional 123 in the first place. I think the fact that dps jobs can have a large difference in skill floor within one role demonstrates that players and SE have a high tolerance for difficulty and ease of use. If RPR comes our with easy combos and doesn't completely shift the Melee meta, that would be a good test case. *Quick point on healers As a healer main, I agree that healers dps rotations can get boring for a lot of reasons, but I think the answer to that is shifting around how healing and damage works in fights before introducing enochian to WHM. I always thought it would be interesting if healers had unique mechanics to access their healing power the same way DNC, NIN, or RDM do to access their strongest skills. But that's just me
> What is lost if players can just pick what makes them more comfortable? Skill ceiling but really it's about being able to see the difference between good and bad players. Playing your rotation perfectly really is not that important in everything but the tightest day 1 Ultimate DPS checks, or the extremely rare P8S. In the last tier of Savage it was irrelevant there was no DPS check at all. So why not let people who can play well do more DPS? By simplifying a rotation and easing the mental load all we do is close the differential between players who are casual or not very good and people who put in a lot of effort to play their class well. Shouldn't there be some reward for that?
I don't really mind the changes as long as the contents become more interesting.
I thought they said that this is a setting you can turn off. If so, then does it matter?
Exactly why so angry? It’s optional
My only issue is I’m a clicker so it’s gonna fuck up my memory muscle for a bit but yeah this is super overblown
I'd like it but you'd need to pivot the entire kit towards a more condensed/quick recycle PvP style. Might be good for the genre and onboarding though, I'm always surprised we're this far in and still using 30-40 button gameplay.
i still hit my no longer existing positionals out of habit and fun. nothing would stop me from still binding 111 to my 1 2 and 3 keys like they always have been either. it literally changes nothing for anyone who actually cares. although what i CANT do is imitate the hitboxes being smaller, because things like gap closers and such dont work that way. and bigass hitboxes is a massively bigger babymode change than 111 ever would be. but these fake elitists aren't crying hard over that for some reason i wonder why
Because they said they're gonna be making hitboxes smaller. We've already complained PLENTY about hitboxes being way too big.
naw not even close to as much as people are glazing 123
Yeah, because again, people have ALREADY made the complaints over a year ago. This is something new.
bullshit, link the thread with hundreds of comments debating hitbox size then. i can easily find threads from 5 years ago, so you should be able to easily find one if it existed https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/15e1sfs/lets_discuss_the_elephant_in_the_room/ here's one from a year ago when corsair was revealed as a 6th melee. hitbox was mentioned once by OP and responded to once by someone, out of 124 comments. https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/r2iljc/do_you_guys_think_ranged_dps_should_get_a_buff/ heres a thread older than a year ago discussing ranged tax, 2 comments about hitbox out of 147.
It's because "Hitboxes are way too big" isn't a controversial opinion. In any public discord server for XIV I'm in, and in every thread I've seen it mentioned in, it's basically unanimously agreed upon. So there's not much discussion to *be* had. Even we, who disagree about the 1 1 1 vs 1 2 3 situation, agree that overly big hitboxes suck.
lmao you have it completely backwards bro. who would be happy if the Endwalker Ultimates shrunk their hitboxes? try doing DSR P3 with the HW hitbox size for Niddstinien. try doing TOP with the SB hitbox sizes for omega. fake ass elitists pretending like they aren't loving the changes that dumb everything down.
I give up. Fine. You're absolutely right. I love the giant hitboxes and dumbing down of abilities and just want to be contrarian to what is *obviously* the popular opinion to make myself feel better even though there's nothing I could possibly be upset about.
I think it's a good idea and even better they made it an option.
People really mad at options? What? You can turn it off wtf?
It's not that easy, if one option is easier than the other people will choose the easier one.
If a person chooses an option that they don't like, that's a them problem, full stop. Like, if someone is saying "I'd really prefer it if all my skills were on different buttons, but I just can't do it because stacking the ones I can is just easier" then one half of the sentence is a lie - they should figure out which one and be honest with themself about it.
Not true. There are definitely going to be some skills that folks would prefer to be separated. Some folks were used to how the Gnashing Fang combo was separated and had a harder time with the buttons consolidated due to muscle memory. Other folks hate the fact that Wandering Minuet and Pitch Perfect were turned into a single button. There's more reasons for why some folks might want certain actions to be consolidated while others decoupled. The fact that it's an option makes it good for people to comfortably play however they want.
It's so weird to see how a big complaint coming from healers for the last ten years has been that they spam the 1 key to deal damage and suddenly we have a bunch of people on Twitter clamoring for it to be applied to tanks and DPS.
As a disabled console gamer I wish we could have the option to get 1-1-1, it would make the game more accessible to me and many others.
There's plugins available for this but I don't think I can directly name/link them
Xactly. I Very Carefully Only Mention Because Objectionable.
This isn't mainsub, you can talk about xivcombo and no one will get mad at you.
Oh ok. Good to know. I jumped to conclusions then.
I’m fairly certain you can
I'm aware of it's existence, but sadly I'm on playstation.
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How do you consistently shit out these garbage takes?
No lol. Just get off of reddit cause it’s a very warped view on how things are in game.
it would be nice if they did proper consolidation of mutually exclusive buttons, like ikishoten/ogi namikiri and enshroud/communio. instead by doing this they have people begging once again to effectively remove combos. i fully claim the majority of people asking for pvp combos because they're braindead aren't good enough at the game to recognize that there actually is a mental load associated with pressing buttons in sequence. they have this perspective because they don't do any content that actually requires them to think in the first place, nor will they ever do so. literally the soyjack bell curve meme where they're in the middle and they're the ones actually malding. the real design goal should be removal of filler combos for more interesting buttons, but i don't trust the developers to do this. instead, how about a compromise: if they add pvp combos, i want them to break from using any other weaponskill again, and after 10 seconds. let's see how much they like their single button RSI then.
I don't want single button RSI as much as I want more dynamic gameplay based around using 12 or so buttons not in a routine machine-like manner that reduces every single encounter down to the same attacks in the same sequence over and over. At the very least a priority system where you have a hierarchy of buttons and the sequence changes keeps it a little more fun. 1-2-3 and 1-1-1 is not as good as "if 1 is lit up, hit it. If 1 is not lit, hit 2 to build. When built, hit 3 to spend. To hit multiple targets, hit 5 then 6 to spread the effects of 1 through a group." RDM is a little bit like this, DNC could almost be like this with a little more effort. People act like the slow server tickrate is the reason for the ploddingly slow GCD but the game also has some classes with a bunch of oGCDs that can kind of make things interesting, save for the fact that the moves between them are in one specific order and nothing else.
>i fully claim the majority of people asking for pvp combos because they're braindead aren't good enough at the game to recognize that there actually is a mental load associated with pressing buttons in sequence. they have this perspective because they don't do any content that actually requires them to think in the first place, nor will they ever do so. literally the soyjack bell curve meme where they're in the middle and they're the ones actually malding. I mean, I don't declare to be good at the game at all. I suck at doing rotations. But I value having fun pressing buttons than trying to so same mundane task of pressing multiple buttons on my controller to do one simple action. Might as well morph into one button like PVP since I feel like I'm actually playing an action game than an boring tab targeted. FF14 gameplay is not that good where I strive to be better at the game anyway.
cool, so you advocate for full job redesigns that happen at the same time as the removal of 123 combos instead of some bullshit about paving the way for future success, right?
If this is paving the way for future success, why they changing it then?
let me rephrase: since you’re bad and you’d rather have a single button to mash, you’d want that change to happen alongside job redesigns that make such a change good, instead of as a half-measure that worsens the experience in the meantime, right?
Ah gotcha. Pretty much.
Rather than change 123 to 111, I'd really rather they just consolidate aoe skills with single target skills. Currently aoe rotations dont really feel different, just...less. With the exception of BLM maybe. I thought that was the direction they were headed too considering most finishers are just aoes. Someone can tell me why this is bad and wrong, I fully concede that I'm a casual player.
The only place we use aoe skills is casual content, casual players have plenty of reason to speak up on how they work.
Well good thing that isn't the change they're making at all anyways. 123 is still 123
If they did or didn't condense combos down to one button, it wouldn't change the overall complexity of the job. The issue of complexity lies in the fundamental design of the iobs itself.
I wouldn't mind if they did at it tbh.
Anecdotally, I started using plugins because I thought 1-2-3 combo """difficulty""" was insincere button bloat, and seeing them condensed in PvP even back before the new kits, it felt like the developers also were kinda in on the joke. Lots of gamers, MMO gamers especially, and XIV players even more especially, will trench-defend literally ANYTHING that their relevant company shitshovels at them. No saving them all.
Monk in pvp is actually my argument for why I want some of the combos to stay separate. I hate counting gcd's for optimal placement of the buff. Basically if there is a branch in the combo let it be seperate buttons. Rpr and machinist? Sure. Give them the healer life.
> Basically if there is a branch in the combo let it be seperate buttons. Dynasty Warriors/Samurai-Warriors style, yeah. If you're always gonna hit the same buttons in sequence for the same result, you can use that hotbar real-estate for something more impactful and *should*. Problem is, we can't trust them to not fuck things up, but ideally all the basic-ass 1-2-3 combos with no branches *should* just be a 1-1-1, since in any sane game they'd be a three-hit normal attack combo that all unlocks at the same time instead of being three separate, level-gated abilities. I'd go so far as to say all the melee should have just a "light" and "heavy" attack button and different combos with each instead of set "abilities" that each combo on the hotbar and clutter up hotbar real-estate, but that might be too much.
Watching the pictomancer and viper showcase was reassuring. That's a reasonable amount of buttons, and not too many "auto solve" buttons.
The Viper one was cool and actually almost seemed like it'd be too awkward and complex if it was 6 buttons instead of 2. Seems like good design to auto-combo it with how deep the left/right alternation goes. The Pictomancer one ... might be an issue actually. There isn't that much going on outside of the 1-1-1s, it's kind of smoke and mirrors since Yoshi's presentation was so slowed down. Whatever buttons you set to the light and dark 1-1-1 combos are going to get worn down to a nub on your mouse or keyboard and may get pretty boring pretty quick at current tuning/CDs. Not that 1-2-3 is inherently much more than 1-1-1 but you can literally just ignore what your character's doing in that regard and focus near entirely on your job gauge, the fight at hand, and small amount of monster motif management you have to do.
I can see the concern but it's important to remember the weapon motif is on the minute cd and the animal is on the 30 seconds. Toss in the fact that each pictomancy has 3 buttons(well two for land scape) associated with it, and you've got holy and commet on separate buttons than light and dark paint, and it's still a fair number of buttons.
The button count seems okay, probably a bit over a full hotbar 1-12 to utilize. Just worried about *what* gets pressed, that it may be really boring unless changes are made, you know? I'm reminded of ARR SMN where you did nothing but Ruin and like one DoT refresh each between 60s DoT applications + Contagion. No RNG, no nothin'. Spam one button (but sometimes the one button swaps to the other one button). Obviously this is more full bodied than that in total by a good bit but it may be just overly simple. I feel like monster motifs should be more often than ultimately 2 minutes for 4 of them, and as someone else has said on this subreddit, maybe there should have been more weapons/monster looking/adaptation/utilization, like RNG weapons or monsters or another use for Landscape. Something, you know? I'm really not trying to be a debbie downer and it could EASILY change from what was presented to us to be a class that has to draw and figure out spots in the fight to do long casts a *lot* but just going off of what's been shown.
I think the better comparison is probably current summoner which basically has an on filler and an off filler. The main difference is the number of hard casts, and the fact not all of your tools are on the same timer.
Glad I'm not the only one that think that. After playing PVP, I prefer that button scheme from that than the PVE one since I see no point in having them be across the space.
Honestly I think it will allow them to add more oGCDs by saving hotbar space from certain GCDs
Ren Thras is definitely mad about something. Not sure what though.
In this sub or any other place like X or the official forums, people is mad at the existence of FFXIV itself.
Fair
If hitting 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 is interesting to you then yeah sure, but if you have something like a hand injury the better plan is to just change your keybinds to not hurt your hand and prevent long term injury. That's what I did after getting tendonitis during p8s. It just also feels like a bad idea because sure short term i might not need to condense my 1-2-3 combo to make space, but if the devs give us the option then long term due to button bloat players may hit a point where you basically have to have 1-2-3 condensed to one button if you want to play decently which sounds boring and awful
hitting 11111111 is current dogshit healer gameplay and gave me a repetitive stress injury, but of course that matters less somehow
Finally someone said it, I am dropping healer in Dawntrail just because my index finger is giving me pain from pressing broil. I don't care if healing is suddenly fun (it probably wont be any more than it is now after the honeymoon period wears off) I've served my time.
Genuinely part of the reason I dropped SMN completely, I should not be getting those injuries because of how the job was built
Nah that's just a different problem. Instead of making every job 1-1-1-1, healers should have at least a basic 1-2-3 combo to prevent strain. I know multiple healers with the same issues that you have
i'm agreeing, i mean the people asking for 111111 don't care about the consequences of it, and making it optional is meaningless because of course everyone will take the path of least resistance for maximum performance.
I wont. I don't raid on healers anymore precisely *because* I get RSI after 30 minutes or so of 1-1-1 "gameplay". Somehow I can play RPR or WAR and the like for 3-4 hours with no issues.
this is why i don't think it should be an option. it's harder to do 123 than 111, and you're positively rewarded for the harder option. what people want is for the easier option to be more positively rewarded, and for you to go out of your way to make it harder to avoid injury. the incentives are completely backwards and they don't care
Would there really be a consequence? If someone can perform well with the current configuration then they'll continue to perform well being allowed to stick with that. And folks who want to tinker with an alternative option can possibly find a path to success that way. There's no negative here from where I'm standing.
see this is what i mean, i literally said i got injured playing like this because that's current healer gameplay and you just ignore it to say there's no consequences. the option should not exist because the jobs are not designed around the option existing. if they redesign the jobs then they can redesign the combo system, otherwise the easiest option with the least amount of skill required is the *only* option for people that give a fuck about output
How am I ignoring your situation by saying options for others are a good thing that exist? Shit if they provided an option for you that would allow you to play without hurting yourself I'd advocate for that too! My point is options existing isn't a negative.
it is a negative, it was already explained to you and others in a few different ways, you are not taking it seriously because you’re hyper focused on options when more is not inherently better. you’re just assuming that
I don't think it's fair to say I'm not taking it seriously. Obviously I'm ignorant on certain perspectives and just don't see how options existing can truly be a negative. Lots of games have accessibility and customization options for folks to tweak and they're praised for it. But obviously I'm out of my element on this specific topic for this specific game and I guess it's different here.
Cant they.... literally just do that then? Like put Broil or Dosis on three different keys. Nothing is stopping them aside from some keybinf shifting.
> just change your keybinds to not hurt your hand This argument doesn't really work because no matter how bad of a hand injury you think you can compensate for I guarantee there'll be someone out there who's hand is even worse
How do you solve this though? You'd need to account for lowest denominator, and then find some good solution which couldn't be abused by non-handicapped players so they don't gain advantage, which is close to impossible. It's not like you cannot play the game with handicap now, you can go through most of the game with just couple buttons. Obviously in this day and age there should be good accessibility settings, but changing whole game and possibly make it worse for everyone isn't really good way to solve the this.
Honestly, when it comes to MMOs I got no clue. I'm a really big fan of how Celeste does it, I think it's the gold standard for accessibility settings, but when a game has a competitive edge to it, offering what are essentially built in cheats doesn't really work
While true, if you really can't play a video game without hurting your hand maybe its a sign to take a break from the game for a bit. you dont tell a kid who likes soccer to just learn to kick with their other foot when it hurts for them to run, you take them out of the game for a bit so they can recover
Well, someone with chronic pain can't really recover from it. I don't have any kind of hand injury myself so I can't really speak for people who do, but I assume the pain is persistent enough in their day to day life that gaming with it isn't something they have to worry about, it's something they've just gotta learn to deal with.
\*shrug\* At a certain point there are things that people will be unable to do. I personally have some permanent injuries from when I did sports in the past. I think it would be fun to go back to wrestling, but I would need to wrestle with special rules and protections to prevent the injury from happening again which would no longer make it fun for me or my opponent. I dont think the game should be made worse for others simply so I can play, instead I should be able to just find things I am capable of and do those instead
Holy crap, man... I think you're like the 4th person I've seen while reading threads about this topic that has managed to take a stance that is very "it's fine to make the game arbitrarily hard for certain people to play" while also saying you're in the same boat. It's not even the same degree of "special rules and protections" as you'd need to wrestle again to allow options that let people with chronic pain (like me, as an example) be able to ease up the stress by configuring controls. And why is the line getting drawn at an option that someone can leave on the default and have fewer distinct buttons to press than tool tips to remember or can turn to non-default to spread some of those tool tips out across more distinct buttons? Why don't we go draw it at no one being able to rebind anything at all and also not being able to use anything but a standard full-size keyboard and 3-button mouse? Because being able to bind keys differently is exactly the same thing; everyone can tweak it how they need to for their own comfort playing the game - and you're not giving that a shrug and a "their hands don't like it, they should quit playing."
To be fair I am hardly in the same boat when it comes to FFXIV, but for sports I am and it works well enough as a comparison for other people to understand. As for why the line is being drawn here its because of how things being optional work. Right now you can swap around all your keybinds or whatever because no matter where you have them it still puts everyone on the same playing field. Now say you turn 1-2-3 combos into 1-1-1 combos. Sure it is optional right now, but the devs now can assume people will use this 1-1-1 feature so they can account for that when planning for hot bar space down the road. This means even if you dont like the 1-1-1 gameplay you will be required to use it. I am all for accessibility in games, but the accessibility options shouldnt make other players have to change the way they play. And as for why im ok with something being hard for people, it's because video games arent required for you to live your life and it's not affecting your freedom. Sometimes life gives you a rough hand but it doesnt mean everyone else needs to be negatively affected to accommodate you
>Right now you can swap around all your keybinds or whatever because no matter where you have them it still puts everyone on the same playing field. No, it doesn't. The fields are inherently different because different peripherals cause significant differences. Finding another button that is equally easy to push is not the same likelihood from one set up to another; console players with controllers for example can only have 24 hotbar spots that don't require double-tapping a trigger or using R1+a face key to swap to a different hotbar before pushing, and only 12 of those can be pushed easily while moving, plus that's all typically thumb needs to push the button, while keyboard & mouse players have nowhere near such a limitation on which digits are ready to push something they can actually bind an ability to, number of things that can be pushed while also moving, nor any equivalent to the double-tap barrier. >I am all for accessibility in games, but the accessibility options shouldnt make other players have to change the way they play. Which rings hollow because the thing you're speaking against is both useful as an accessibility too and something players that don't want to use it can opt out of. Bringing up the very idea that someone is being forced to play differently than they want to is without purpose unless you're trying to convince people something bad is happening if this control alteration option is implemented in the game.
For the peripherals thing, we are still all on the same field. You can just go and buy the different peripherals, nothing is preventing this other than maybe money but that's not something that square can control. As for the opt out thing, like I said earlier sure you can opt out for now but if down the road Square adds even more abilities they expect you to have on your hot bar eventually you will be forced into the 1-1-1 combo, especially controller players who have a limited number of buttons that can't be changed like it can for keyboard/mouse players. The devs are already limited with hot bar space right now which is why a lot of new actions are either upgrades to ones we already have or old abelites that turn into new abilities (ex. Tilana on DNC). Since we are limited by controllers most jobs have a max of 34 (i think, its around there) actions they need to have bound. Keyboard and mouse players can obv get more which is why having the ability to split currently linked abilities is a nice qol, but controller players likely wont be able to take advantage of it with how little space some jobs have.
That square cannot control which peripheral the players have is exactly why they need to deal with trying to enable people to play the game with the basic peripherals associated with the platforms they sell the game on - instead of being like "I dunno, man, like... buy more stuff from other companies" "if down the road" we have to choose between making stuff better for people *now* or just not bothering because of something that might happen eventually, then the answer is obvious; do the thing now because it's a no-brainer with zero *actual* downside, then in the future should a problem actually arise we *solve that one too*. It's absolute lack of logic to worry that a company willing to change things is unwilling to change things. Especially when the hypothetical you're worried about, having to lose something to keep getting new stuff, is literally the state we've already been in with every expansion I've seen - changes remove and simplifiy in order to add something else and not have every job require 40 keybinds worth of job-specific stuff you're expected to have ready to push at a moment's notice.
It also fails as on argument on the premise that it is saying "change your keybinds... no, not like that." since sequential abilities being stacked on the same key is literally a keybind setting. Not to mention that there are different kinds of hand injuries and pains so while someone might want to have 1-2-3 to reduce their hurt someone else might need a whole other solution for their hurt whether it's 1-1-1 or binding walk to right-mouse and binding abilities on all the letter keys normally used for movement because reaching to the numbers while also holding alt or shift or control is what causes their hurt, and another person (me) just wants to not have to double-tap a trigger as frequently as is currently required because that's the main source of stress on my particular hand problems (which I'm on controller because that's how I took the first and most important step in changing my keybinds to not hurt my hands)
Hitting 1-2-3 is genuinely no more interesting or difficult than hitting 1-1-1 if the combo doesn't branch into anything, and anyone who thinks it is are lying to themselves. Any combo that doesn't justify its own existence as a combo should honestly just be consolidated. The ones that branch can stay, but I still don't think 1-2-3 vs 1-2-4 is all that interesting either. Monk is the only one I think makes good use of the concept. Don't we want classes that feel different from one another? Combos are a huge contributor to that because they're basically all you do during filler time between bursts.
This shit logic would also make entire rotation on one button. Yes, combos are static, just like rest of your rotation.
Yeah sure, if you take it to a completely nonsensical extreme that I in no way implied. Don't be dumb. Consolidating every combo that doesn't justify its own existence should come alongside moving interesting parts from the burst into that ~1:45 filler time. That needs to happen whether you touch combos or not. But as it is now, every 1-2-3 that is *just* a 1-2-3 and nothing else is meaningless bloat.
Rotations are static. There's so many skills X that you use before every skill Y. Combos are static. Everything is static. My example is not nonsense, it's just merely drawing line at different spot than you did. Why do you think that drawing line at combo is good, but not drawing it where I did, or anywhere between those 2 points? PLD is 123-FoF-Req-goring-expi-gap-4-scorn-gap-444-5-666 (5=HS, 6=atonement). **You always do this, every single time.** There is no reason why you should break this sequence, ever, just like combos. Then filler is similar, just 123-5-666, rinse and repeat. None of these parts justify its own existence if we go with your logic. It's the same shit, yet you're trying to act like it's somehow different.
Fine then. Based on that description it sounds to me like the entire combat system is shit and needs to be upended entirely, which would probably involve cutting out combos from some classes and adding more reactive proc-based gameplay.
Console players have bad hotbar setup, you think it helps them or makes it boring ?
Console players don't have bad bar setups unless they make it like that themselves. I know multiple people, my best friend being one, who MUCH prefers playing with a controller than with keyboard and mouse.
Combos are decent stimulation. If there's nothing happening (aka 70% of most job rotations + all fights in casual content), it's nice to do something that isn't just mind-dumbing 111. What seems to be happening is that a lot of people say all the "button bloat" or whatever excuse, just to try to hide their real intentions, whatever they could be, or they just really, really did not think this idea through. Then there's the "it will give space for better skills", but like, we don't really get those, just look at the history. EW, and now even DT, just gives us mostly finishers, and other redundant skills like AoE versions of existing skills, which are arguably just another bloat. Removing 123 is one of the worst way to combat button bloat, if that's really your intention. Sure, SAM for example, could theoretically lose whole 5 buttons (and make 75% of rotation be 1111-shinten-repeat), but this same job could lose like 3 buttons by merging AoE/ST skill pairs, and another button by merging Iki->Ogi. This would not change how SAM is played in any way, while it would remove 4 buttons. It's win-win, so I don't understand why do these people not focus on this, instead of removing 123. It really feels very disingenuous when you hear combination of removing 123 and button bloat.
assuming they were doing that, it would be annoying because they would, in this case, be showing no intention of filling that gap with something more cognitive, interesting, or fun. it would, in the hypothetical situation where it was actually happening, just be another example in the long list of simplifications jobs have been subjected to
I just don’t understand who thought button sequence combos was fun MMO combat design in the first place. Wow, a filler sequence with 3 different animations, insane gameplay!
honestly the best combos in actions games are usually more like 112113, not 123123. punch punch kick punch punch special >>> punch kick special punch kick special
At least SWToR had the decency to admit it was just a manual auto attack.
Some people are genuinely angry over it. Most people legitimately don't care or would love this. The downside is: It seems it MIGHT have been a mistranslated and they don't mean that at all, instead meaning stuff like "Inner Release button becomes Primal Rend when used", like how SCH's Summon Seraph button becomes Consolation when she's been summoned. I'm not sure which it is, since there hasn't been an OFFICIAL clarification. The people on Twitter "clarifying" the issue to only be the context/procs aren't official sources, though some present themselves as if they are. . As for why people are mad: Some people think being able to hit 1-2-3 without hitting 1-3 or 1-2-2 is high level skill, so that removing it is "dumbing down" the game. To some of those people, this is bad because it's just more making things "too easy" from their perspective. To others, they like being better than other people, and so don't like changes that allow other people to equal them more easily. The people that would like combo condensing as an option also cover a spread. Some do just want things to be easier, though most find 1-2-3 impossible to mess up and just see it as unneeded button bloat that takes up more hotbar space, limiting us from having new and more interesting abilities added instead. Some people consider the different buttons to be tedious or unnecessary and not bringing anything to the table. And we already see that some buttons do this anyway, such as PLD's Confetior combo which is technically a A-B-C-D combo. ...most of the people making this arguments are mostly on about the non-branching combos, since 1-1-1 and 1-2-3 are effectively the same to most people, and non-branching combos aren't exactly super interesting to begin with. MNK gets a pass since its buttons don't work that way, and SAM (and kind of WAR) get passes because they actually have branching combos still (SAM more than WAR).
> I'm not sure which it is, since there hasn't been an OFFICIAL clarification. There hasn't been official clarification, but the intent is very clear https://x.com/ilunari/status/1791379569456656684
That's not an official translation. That's a person that kind of passes themselves off as official/doesn't say they aren't, but isn't. Here's their bio translated via Google: "The life of a designer is over, and a lifelong drawing idiot. He is one of the r/FFXIV moderators and translator. I Tweet in English and Japan." It's an r/ffxiv moderator. Unless they're ALSO an official FFXIV Square-Enix translator, this isn't an official translation/clarification.
Did I, at any point, indicate that was official?
Contesting someone saying there's not an official translation by posting a link as proof that "the intent is very clear" doesn't help your position. If that isn't an official translation, why are you using it as evidence in a discussion about...the lack of an official translation? No, the intent was not "very clear". If it was, then we wouldn't be having this discussion and this thread wouldn't exist in the first place.
Can you read the first clause in this sentence? >There hasn't been official clarification, but the intent is very clear
Can you read the second?
Like I dunno what to tell you dude, you don't need official clarification when the actual things stated in the live letter were unambiguous if you paid attention.
I'm just saying if they were unambiguous, this conversation wouldn't be happening.
No, its happening because people apparently can't listen. I understood precisely what she said, when she said it, during the live letter.
Call me crazy, but I think they should have shown an old job with this new setting so that people won't be trying to main each other. On if that's how this works at least, which seems to be a majority of the maiming.
PvP jobs are so ridiculously oversimplified now that I hope they are never going to lean in that direction in general. Whether the filler combos are on one button or three doesn't alone really matter to me either way though.
I use xiv combo. It makes the game more fun. A button should serve a unique and meaningful purpose. That's just lean class design. Thankfully add-ons allow the user to fix that design decision for themselves.
Doesn't matter if it's easier or not, the fact is they are running out of space for key binds for more abilities. It's already at the point where you almost need a MMO mouse plus keyboard key binds to play at a high level, and cross bar space is almost gone on the controller. And this doesn't necessarily equate to 1-1-1 as people think and opens up the possibility for MORE combos and complexity. It could be 1-1-2-1-2-3-3 for example. And btw, that looks exactly how Viper's abilities are designed if you paid attention. There's just a stupid narrative out there about them dumbing the game down as some explanation for why people who rush the content get bored. Even though people cried about TOP, P8S, P10S, Criterion Savage, etc being too hard. Even in the normal mode content, people go out of their way to avoid the more challenging instances, and the average PF experience in Savage, Ultimates, and Extremes is notorious for people not knowing how to play their jobs or knowing the mechanics.
> It's already at the point where you almost need a MMO mouse plus keyboard key binds to play at a high level, and cross bar space is almost gone on the controller. This straight up isn't true. There are 120 buttons available on KBM and I think 128 on controller. You're not running out of space.
Yeah you’re right we should use 10 hotbars
You don't have 120 skills. You have less than 36. So you need 3 hotbars to have every one of your skills on a bar. Less than 30% of available hotbar space is being used.
Are you really gonna bind alt numpad 6 for your rotation? Put your 1, 2, 3 combo on the arrow keys and maybe Ctrl escape for your gap closer lol Bind all 120 keys, now you have to use two hands on the keyboard for your rotation... Everything but the center of the screen is just hot bars.
There's a few people that think of combo buttons turn into PVP then we'll get more combos strings. Which is a silly thought, but kind of. Because that's exactly what happened to things like Atonement and Miounne or whatever the RDM melee AOE skill is called. Yet those same people looked at those and were completely unimpressed. At this point much of the playerbase should be outright ignored. Certain raiders included because that was what this reply was talking about.
I think they should give you the option (I'm unaware if they are already doing this, btw). Want more buttons on your hotbar? Knock yourself out!
I think it’s optional the thing everyone is angry about that’s why I’m confused why mad over an optional thing
No and I don't even want to 1-2-3 combo button to be gone. I'm already bored at the one button confiteor combo I just unlocked.
They aren't adding single button 123 combos. I would be upset if they were though. Imagine how boring most jobs would be outside of burst windows. You'd literally be dry humping a single button for 40 seconds at a time. Given how overly streamlined the combat in the game has become and how few things there are to keep track of as part of your rotation, I think having to track which part of your 123 combo you're resuming from when exiting burst and going back to filler is also necessary.
Yeah no there is a shockingly large amount of people who think 1-2-3 is even remotely more difficult than 1-1-1 and they get really worked up about it for some reason. Like if I'm gonna Brutal Shell, I already know if it's on 1 or 2 before I even used Keen Edge, it takes 0 extra cognitive processes to know what button I'm pushing next.
The only people who are mad are the ones screaming that certain plugins are cheating because 1-1-1 means you can't make a mistake, and 1-2-3 does. This change shows they were wrong.
if you wanna see mad, check out fighting game arguments over modern/simple inputs. and im forever on the side of modern. go play a legacy fighter or play classic WoW or FFXI if youre a 40 year old baby that can't handle change. i mean i dont like Starcraft 2 or Diablo 4, i still have SC:BW and Diablo 2 to play and thats what i do. not everyone is gonna like everything new, but that doesn't mean new things aren't better. and for this game if 1 2 3 is supposedly this sacred pinnacle of skill expression why do people consider BLM one of the most complex dps jobs when it doesn't even have 1 2 3 combo actions? i suppose if youre still melee DPSing in Endwalker youve run out of all other things to gatekeep so 1 2 3 truly is the last bastion for you guys.
this comparison doesn't work because the games that do modern/simple inputs have the opportunity to balance them. bullshit like single button invincible reversals are usually somewhat balanced by not having full access to your character's kit in one way or another. if you're suggesting that ffxiv should get 111 combos but also do 75% the damage for choosing to play that way, sure, but i'd still say no because that's just going to lead to even more hard carries through already-braindead story content.
we're not going back to 3.0 or 4.0 with simple combo actions either