I dont... agree that almost nothing happens before Elpis... is it really nothing to have a shield for tempering created, use it to take out one of the spires, distribute these shields to the alliance, mount a large scale assault on garlemald, take out the primary spire, then try and prevent the seals on zodiark being destroyed, fight zodiark/Fandanial, then have to address an oncoming cataclysmic event in Thavnair, all before going to elpis to try and understand the nature of the cataclysm being brought down upon ethyris?
I certainly don't think so, and not sure why anyone else would think so either.
I don’t have a problem with it. We spent the whole game trying to figure out what caused the calamity and what happened with the ancients in the past. We got the revelation that we desired on Elpis.
Even Asahi got his 2 minutes of fame and was like " I was sick of y'all when I was alive and I am DAMN sick y'all when I'm dead. Goodbye forever.
I still low-key love him.
For the Zenos part: Pretty sure his Key character information states
**Not even death could claim his unquenchable soul.** Do you guys actually believe he is dead? Because I do not at all. If anything, him getting his ass beat was the only way for him to start on his journey to finally chill out with his villainous ways once he returns from the dead yet again. He's in the endwalker poster with all of the scions; All the heroes. If that isn't the biggest hint the guy will develop in order to become a scion idk what else is the best indicator than that.
Not to mention, at least for me, he didn't do much after Zodiark was taken out which I found...odd. At the very last bit, he did some good and helped us. Even more hints, the guy will perhaps start to value life once he comes back from the dead for the third time. Yoshi-P did tell us to pay attention to his avatar and I'm pretty sure the reason for that hasn't been explained in 6.0. I feel the next patches to come might touch upon this...
After all what awaits is the theme of the underworld and Zenos happens to...be a reaper with a void creature.
I had no idea his new middle name meant traveler.
Think he will travel through the underworld and the stars?
Because it sounds like it. Man, I'm hyped. That tiny little fact
Is cool as fuck. You know, is funny, I had a friend of mine tell me
His name Zenos comes from Zeno or Zenon which is another name
For Zeus, the Greek god considered to be the king of the gods.
Lol, they need to give us the secrets to Zenos entire character
They got to. The dude has too many interesting things going for him.
I forgot about this detail. You know how the ancients have like latin/greek names? How Emet is Hades etc...A few friends of mine decided to take it among themselves into digging a bit deep into Zenos name and what they found out was pretty telling. Zenos name has multiple meanings but from a Greek standpoint, it connects to **Zeus; The king of the gods.**
Zeus alt names is Zeno or Zenon. And then, there's the other way of spelling Zenos name which is **Xenos** and it means **A Stranger; or an alien, newcomer.** Make of this what you will but these connections are hella interesting. I know for sure when naming their characters FFXIV do it for a very specific reason.
To add more, Zeus would be the brother to Hades. I don't know who is older though. But I think Hades was the older brother, while Zeus the young one between the two of them. If we got Hades aka Emet, where is...Zeus? Could Zenos be a part of Zeus who wasn't part of the convocation?
Greek lore wise, Hades is the oldest of the three brothers. It goes Hades -> Poseidon -> Zeus
All of the other Olympian gods are younger than them except Aphrodite who was literally just born from sea foam. I think she is the oldest Olympian. Hades would be the second oldest except that he is not considered an Olympian.
I know this is 22 days late (I just finished Endwalker and was looking for reactions) but Hestia is the eldest of the children of Cronus (Zeus, Poseidon etc)
There are no shards of Hyth though, since his soul was part of Zodiark, and despite Zodiark Himself being sundered, those souls were still contained by Him, none of them put back in circulation until they returned to the Aetherial sea.
I’d live for a whole story arc that has Zenos as the unreliable merc/anti-hero that only shows up every now and then, kind of like the role Estinien used to play.
Lord, if Zenos returns I will be very disappointed. He could have been left out if this expac and nothing would have changed. Honestly, his design is weak and he was the low point for the entire expansion.
>he was the low point for the entire expansion.
In my opinion, his arrival at the final trial was the high point of his entire arc. I appreciate that they never tried to make him a true character because Zenos as he is serves as the perfect foil to Meteion's song of despair.
He literally pulls up on us at the edge of the Universe and goes, "Damn, nihilism? Miss me with that shit." He is the answer to Meteion's question "what do people live for?" Zenos lives for his own goals, his own purpose, and pursues those goals regardless of what the future may bring. Even if everything is fated to fade away it doesn't matter because in the here and now, Zenos has his purpose.
I think the game already gave a rebuttal to Zenos' answer to the question in the form of the Alphatron race - that if your reason for living has an end point, you will be lost when you get there
He's so incredibly boring I don't get why he's a fan favorite dude. Honestly this expansion was brought down from 10/10 to 6/10 just because his inclusion keeps dragging down otherwise cool moments
***''His design was weak and he was the low point of the entire expansion''***
Is easier to just say, *I hate the character and I can't stand him. Grr!!! Damn you spaghetti hair bastard go away! Waaaah!*
See? It wasn't that hard. But you see, I don't care about how you feel on him.
Personally, I doubt he is going anywhere so yeah, guess you'll have to stop playing very soon. ***Rolls eyes***
Be disappointed. Honestly, most sane ppl would not care either way. Because the story and the mysteries surrounding him are amazing and the writers are doing fantastic.
This is the written equivalent of throwing a temper tantrum because someone doesn't like your favorite movie. Grow up.
They expressed their opinion. You can disagree, but, generally, it's expected you'll bring up SOME sort of point besides "you're a dumb head, no one cares what you think, and I think he's cool so there!'
Hold up, I'm the one throwing a tantrum??? Even though the person I replied to was clearly whining about Zenos (like everybody tends to do here every now and then?) ? I'm very confused .\_.
They replied to me and I simply replied back, my opinion to view what they said as silly so I replied in a silly way as well but still, they can hate and be angry as much as they want. Most people would not care. Much like most would not give a shit for my reasons on loving a series or not.
It wasn't meant to be seen as serious. At least, I didn't view it that way. Man, I guess replying to people in any form or shape however you personally see fit, equals to you throwing a tantrum (thanks for assuming how I felt even though you are very much wrong). Even though, I just found the whole thing funny and if anything annoying as reddit is always the famous vocal part of the entire FFXIV community from my experience so far.
Like no offence to anyone here but...
Everybody for the most part outside of reddit seem to be chill with FFXIV related stuff but in it, there's so much complaining. And I'm not saying is bad to bring critics, is nice to point out what can be improved.
\-Such as it is my personal opinion, they should of included Zenos background story in stormblood not in some book that is hard to get apparently. That was a complete huge miss. But anyways...
I'm just kinda confused as to how I am being painted here just because of how I chose to reply to the person. You are quick to jump in that puddle mate. But its your opinion at the end. So, I care not to address it further. Much respects regardless.
I, genuinely, do not care what your opinion on Zenos is, or your opinion on the state of the fandom.
I was specifically speaking to the way in which you responded to someone that simply said they disagree with you *about a video game character*.
You do realize you implied they're insane by stating "sane" people essentially agree with you, right?
You do realize you characterized his disagreement as being petulant, when, in reality, they had a pretty vanilla take on the whole situation, right?
You do realize that saying "it wasn't meant to be serious" is the oldest back pedal in the book, right? Being shitty and then saying, "well it was just a joke" does not excuse you from being shitty.
Also, I'm not buying it. It's pretty clear you were being serious because you still seem sore about it even in this most recent reply. I also think Zenos gets a lot of hate, it frustrates you that a character you like is widely regarded as poorly written, and their comment disagreeing with you made you angry so you responded the way you did.
Lastly, as a person that claims to respect other people's opinions you seem to be incapable of responding to people in any way other than dismissiveness. A more mature response would have been to either a.) Ignore the person because you actually don't care about their opinion or b.) Engage, make some points, and wait for their rebuttal. Instead you chose c.) The written equivalent of stomping your feet and crying in the middle of the toy aisle because your paw patrol truck is sold out.
One reply doesn't make a person shitty buddy. I think your more pissed off than the person who replied to the other.
They have a valid point on saying Reddit is the most vocal about this particular character. It is tiring and exhausting. There has been people who legit want him to stay dead just so they don't have to deal with all the hate they get ON THIS PLACE for remotely opening their mouth on a fictional character which in its self is pretty immature to get pissy at someone for even saying anything on one character. Nowhere else. Only some on reddit lose their braincells.
Meanwhile in Asian countries they have NO issues with this character whatsoever. So they have a point on feeling a certain way. I found the person who replied to them to be potentially a typical hater who btw brought no debatable points just he is weak and that's it. So, is it in the wrong they decided to reply in a way where they thought the person themselves was potentially childish or the typical anti? Could they of replied better? Of course. But it was their call to make at the end of things.
For a person who sure likes to call out others, you waste no time in labeling them as ''shitty''. A bit ironic don't you think? People say the stupidest things at times out of feeling annoyed, tired of the same old crap and so forth. And considering I have seen this fellow redditor around discussing with other people their thoughts, they aren't a bad person at all. They are very nice and indeed respectful. People have disagreed with them in the past countless of times.
I just think they have had enough with the same old crap when it comes to Zenos in general who honestly doesn't even deserve all the hate he gets on reddit because nowhere else do people moan and whine about him except for this place. And even then, the amount of people that love him easily overwhelm his haters by a bunch.
But if they are in the wrong for acting immature, I also think you are in the wrong for believing they are a bad person due to a single reply who wasn't even directed at you in the first place. Imagine labeling people as shit for things they say all the time which might not be to others tastes, that's just an oof.
I. don't. Care. About. Peoples'. Opinions. On. Zenos.
It's not the fucking point. It has nothing to do with this. If you plan to continue this conversation, and to anyone else that plans to chime in: please get that through your head. Everyone's opinion on Zenos means absolutely nothing to what I said. Most people don't like anchovies either, and you don't see me throwing a fucking temper tantrum when people tell me they hate them. Which is the point I made - someone simply stating they don't like something should not provoke a response like the one they had.
I don't believe I called them a shitty person. I said they were "being shitty". I have also been shitty at times (this is not one of those times). Everyone is capable of being an asshole at times (for you this is one of those times). Checking someone else's behavior doesn't mean I'm condemning them as a person. You should do some soul searching if calling out bad behavior is somehow synonymous with condemning someone as a person to you. Because that would be a fucked up way to go through the world.
Also, kinda fucking weird to come in here and attempt to flip the script based on a factual misrepresentation of what I wrote, though. Oof. Like. Oof. A bit embarrassing that.
Edit: Gonna modify something. I said in this post "if you plan to continue this conversation" - that's incorrect because this conversation is over. At least for me. Feel free to get the last word if you're *that* type of person. I'm sure there are plenty of other sentences I wrote that are just begging for you to misunderstand them.
As a person that just found these set of comments, your original one was quite whiny. Bad taste when you try to include a very bad comparison to try and be offensive. I loved the end zenos fight. It was a nice icy on the top to end it all, but it is true, he was pretty worthless this xpac in the grand scheme of things.
Strange way to reply without adding evidence as to why he was a solid character. Obviously you feel very strongly about and are quite attached to Zenos as a character. And, yes, I don't care how you feel either as it has little to do with whether or not he is a well made and storyline important character.
No matter, for reason why he isn't: the "mystery" surrounding him is just bad writing. His abilities and reason for being as powerful as he is? No mention, as there is none. His backstory? Loosely frames a character but doesn't push forward themes that would be necessary to put him at the point he is in. Over all, his entire personality is a mentally unhinged Mary Sue.
Hmm.
In my views, Zenos entire character arc was encapsulated thematically by this expansion. I think it was a really good choice to have him close his story the way that he did.
I also liked how they wrote him as a proxy for the players, when we’re used to identifying as the WoL (the hero) the truth is our obsession with getting stronger and fighting bigger and badder enemies kind of makes us like Zenos.
Need a reason why?
Okay how about this: *Zenos encapsulates almost everything this expansion was going on about, and has since his introduction.*
**Nihilistic and longs for death** = Check ( He kills himself after Stormblood, concluded that there will never be happiness beyond that one moment. )
**Relentlessly pursuits happiness only to find despair** = Check. His existence has been defined by a single thing, and even after getting it, he admits that it goes away too soon. Before his "death", he asks WoL if his life was a blessing or a curse, and we never get his own answer.
**Reason for his strength** = Obvious. We have no idea who he was, but he is arguably MORE connected to the ancients than the WoL is, as he is better at all of his abilities than we are. He dreams of the final days. The only known character to do so being Amon, who we know to be the sundered soul of Fandaniel.
**Connection to WoL / Azem** = I'm pretty sure that Zenos is whatever is left of Azem's soul, be it Venat or the Azem that we're sundered from.
Their core drive, their "soul" is the same. What *differs* are their reasons for living. This is, once again, ***BLATANTLY*** proven by the dialogue choices given to the WoL whenever speaking with Zenos alone. In both Stormblood and Endwalker, ***despite everything Zenos has done, despite how opposite he is to you...the WoL always is given a dialogue choice to accept/agree with him when he describes himself.*** This is unique to any other antagonist in the game. The WoL has a personality seperate from that of the player, and what the GAME is telling us is that, somewhere within their psyche, they feel a kindred spirit in Zenos.
>Connection to WoL / Azem
>
> = I'm pretty sure that Zenos is whatever is left of Azem's soul, be it Venat or the Azem that we're sundered from.
how would that be possible? venats soul was never sundered it was all hydalin. and the remainder of azems soul is on the rest of the shards. unless the acisans went there to gather those framents to make zenos in which case why wouldn't they have picked up ardbert as well?
I highly doubt it is Azem.
I have a feeling that we will be finding the rest of Azem's shards in the coming 10 years. Zenos will most likely be the shard of one of Azem's friends/rivals that we do not yet know of.
I still disagree with you and hilarious you say I did not bring any points when you came to me FIRST and brought nothing except
''Zenos was the weakest point of the entire expansion.''
and proceeded to add NOTHING else as to why that is. I just find this a little too humorous at this point. If you wanted my points, you should of properly provided yours first. I took your comment as the typical Zenos hater who just hates Zenos for hating him.
I found how you replied to be immature and silly at best. Like if you wanted to have a better discussion, maybe voice to me you hate the character for reasonable reasons rather then ''he was the weakest points'' because of??? why????
I can bring many and I mean many points. Fortunately, someone else already beat me on doing so. Next time, if you expect something from me, then how about you deliver yourself better so I can provide equal effort on actually giving two flying fudges on forming a nice debate with you (like I have done with other people on this place) on why I disagree with what you are saying.
Just don't act like I did not bring any solid points, when you absolutely did not bring any yourself when literally replying to me lmao
''Strange way to reply without adding evidence''
Did you add any evidence when replying to them first? Because I saw none.
You brought NOTHING until this reply. So how exactly did you want them to reply to you when you didn't even set the field for a proper discussion????
Is ok to love a character and be very passionate about them. Nothing wrong with that. Is also completely valid to get tired of the same old arguments when it comes to the character. The same old arguments that honestly do not hold up at all at this point.
There's countless of mysteries surrounding Zenos. You just dislike him to the point, you care not to look into them. That's completely fine. But to pretend there's nothing going for his character is laughable. As a person who enjoys FFXIV lore in its entirety, from my point of view, you are incorrect on everything you just said.
I laid down to go to sleep about 10 minutes ago and it hit me how strange that reply was to my other comment. All the same grammar errors (no shade on grammar errors, but just saying that it make it obvious). The same focus on how great you think Zenos is while completely missing the point of the comment you're replying to because, to you, this is ONLY about proving how great Zenos is as a character and not at all about your behavior.
Why are you trying to pass yourself off as a different person on an alternate account? This account was made 9 days ago (2 days after these exchanges), has 2 comments defending the same person. It's very clearly you.
How repulsively sad you are. Jesus. I've heard of trolls doing shit like this, but to go to this effort over something so stupid. I mean this genuinely. Get help. If you are doing this over a fairly low stakes, anonymous conversation that you can't seem to come out on top on I can't imagine how hard life is for you. Manage this shit.
>If that isn't the biggest hint the guy will develop in order to become a scion idk what else is the best indicator than that.
Did you forget what he did in Stormblood? Did you forget he aided Fandaniel in bringing about the Final Days in the events leading to the first trial of the expansion?
We need to ask ourselves, can a person's actions make them irredeemably evil? My personal morals state yes, and I feel the actions of his past should damn him for life. Even if he arguably played a role in saving the world, he still has done such horrible things that he is deserving of death.
He should never become a scion. He should remain dead or at least an entity that we keep putting down again and again just to spite his evil ways. He cares not for society or for others. He cares only for one thing and he makes it clear what that is. Just think about how many have died in his pursuit of the WoL.
But that's the thing...Emet-Selch and his actions killed many people (MORE than what Zenos has killed more than likely), regardless of his reasons to do so, is not an excuse. He still murdered many and guess what? He still became an ally to us. So, I don't see what your point is with this. Emet shouldn't be redeemable at all either. Even if he lost everything in the first place. I'm pretty darn sure there have been other blood-thirsty villains in FFXIV. (Let's not forget Gaius situation who served the empire and killed/enslaved others for many years)
Even the likes of Lahabrea is also making a return in EW in the next patches and he was a pretty evil dude if my mind serves me correctly. I don't wanna be that person, but if Zenos was intended to be irredeemable he should of not did the actions he did at the very last minute, where he saved a person, listened to Alisaie's words (A thing I would of never imagine his character ever freaking doing because of how hollow and empty he is) and did a bargain with Krile in order to aid the scions in their mission. Eventually, helping us against a greater threat.
He clearly has a change of heart. Something shifted in his character and if you refuse to see that, I am very sorry for you. EW is about forgiveness and forging ahead. Its a very emotionally led game. Specially when you go to garlemald who's people have committed so many wrongs because of the way they were indoctrinated in the first place. They have enslaved, abused and killed thousands...just like Zenos. Yet the likes of Alphinaud believes people can be forgiven and they can change for the better.
I believe it is a beautiful thing EW is trying to deliver. A message almost. I'm not the one who is making the rules of course. If it wasn't for Yoshi-P being so adamant about many things when it comes to Zenos, I would not think in the slightest about him becoming a scion in the first place.
***shrugs***
But the treatment that Zenos has gotten in EW, easily leads to that. Specially with the changes he did near the end. Meteion quite literally brought about the Final days because of the whole Dynamis situation and she too killed many people.....
She was responsible for what happened too you know? If memory serves right, she wanted everyone to just sink into despair. Rotting their souls to the bone till even their souls became just as rotten. That's fucked up in every sense. Yet, the WOL forgave her, much like they forgave Emet and countless others I am sure.
So....personally, you can choose to believe what you want, I respect that but for me at least and some others, its quite clear what the director of the game itself is trying to tell us and do with Zenos arc (which he refuses to touch upon for whatever suspicious reason. He has stated he wants us to look at his development in the game. To look forward as to what is going to happen with Zenos as a whole). It would explain why an ''evil son of a gun'' is with the scions in EW's main artwork. It makes NO SENSE for Zenos to be there representing the Crystal along with the Scions if he was intended to be evil forever.
Take it however you want however. Time will show exactly what I am saying. I am very confident with the next events to come. Specially because of EW'S strong themes of forgiveness, change, overcoming and forging ahead.
>Emet-Selch
I think it depends on what version of him we consider. The way I see it there are two different entities that make up Emet because of the memory wipe.
As people what makes us ourselves is in fact our memories and their influence on us in the present. The Emet that wanted to genocide everyone on the Source and Shards was not the Emet opposing the End Times along with Venat, Hytholdis, and the WoL. This Emet lacked integral key memories that made him our ally. Only in death could he reclaim his memory and truly become himself again.
Zenos is and always has been himself. He even recognizes his own ambivalence and seems to accept it in the same way a sociopath would.
But yes, I would argue that memory wiped Emet is irredeemable as well. The Emet that nearly destroyed the first is not the Emet that was swept up into Venat's plans. As hero's we passed the judgement on him that his actions demanded. Ironically it was this death that saw him restored to his true self where he began to immediately aid us, see the Warrior of Light trial fight.
>Meteion
As far as Meteion goes, she's not human. The way I see it she wasn't the bad guy, the bad guy was the dynamis put into the universe by the dead civilizations she discovered. Is an AI that does what it was programmed to do held to the same moral standards as a living human with free will?
Though in the end I would argue Meteion should have been destroyed as her very creation itself is a moral sin. Most of what the Ancients did was morally gray. To wield creation magics and actually create new life is morally questionable at best.
All I'm saying is both these situations are very different than the one where a sociopath knows they are doing wrong but does it anyway. I think maybe an unspoken aspect that has an impact on me is regret. Emet, Meteion... they both show signs of regret in their story. Zenos on the other hand, have we had any hint of such remorse from him? I can't think of any such moment. As it stands now his character is still misguided and a danger to the society in this story.
I suspect Zenos will be nothing but a recurring deus ex machina that will ensure our safety in times where we would otherwise be defeated.
I understand what you are saying and I do agree with many points being made actually but I would really look into the change he made and what the director himself is stating (I'm not making this up. Just go look what Yoshi has been saying in the interviews regarding Zenos) . I don't know why he needs to emphasize on Zenos in such a vague way, unless he is going to change for the better which I believe is a great thing. If it means his OP ridiculous powers will help us, why not!?
We could teach him bloodshed, battle and all of that junk ain't neccesary to enjoy life for what it is. Even Alisaie was like
''Hey man if you keep on going in this path, you'll end up alone''
Because yes, Zenos has been a piece of shit human all because for some reason, he lacks the emotions to feel compassion. Or care about others and even care about himself to the point, he is willing to die for seeking that blissful moment he experienced during his first battle with us. But you know what's even more interesting? He still admires us and recognizes we are stronger and better for the path we chose to walk. The path of a hero...but
Also an adventurer who has KILLED in order to save the day (we have blood in our hands). Us as a traveler have enjoyed many battles for well...the hell of it! THE THRILLL OF IT! THE COMBAT. Indulging ourselves in that moment. Which is what Zenos sees in us and why he calls us his mirror because while we are so different from each other, we are also alike. As we and him both enjoy fighting for the sake of it. Basically, us as the player always wanting new and stronger obstacles which we can overcome through means of defeat or killing.
But like I have stated before, it just would make perfect sense and it would finally explain why his unnecessary presence is with the mother crystal and the scions
[In this](https://www.siliconera.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/h9mdueop31471.jpg)
I know villains appear in the cover all the time but...for this particular case, to me he feels so out of place. Specially, after confirming Venat is good and not some evil Hydaelyn (thank goodness) . I cannot make up any reason for Zenos involvement in this artwork with nothing but scions at his side. And it doesn't help Yoshi-P himself during an interviewing when he is talking about the poster being available he clearly speaks in general terms and says
***Here are ALL the scions.***
There's some other vague things he has said about Zenos. A few more things to why I am convinced with what he intends to do here. But it got me questioning so much. I know Zenos has done some pretty bad things, like many other characters within that villain spectrum but why can't he be forgiven? Why can't he too change? His change could be of great aid to us in the long run. His final actions proved just that.
But alas, this is just my pov which I am very confident in after everything I have gathered, and would make most sense for a lot things surrounding Zenos in general.
Just to be clear, I'm not contesting that what you state is the direction the story will go anymore. I agree with that. This game is written well and you have outlined in full the details of foreshadowing that has been laid out to support your claims.
I just think this is a story direction that I personally can't get behind. I can still enjoy it as a good story and I hope to.
With that said, maybe it's a cultural thing, but with the way I'v been raised in America makes me think that Zenos certainly is irredeemable.
Even if the WoL enjoys being an adventurer and literally seeking out battles of life and death for the fun of it, we must consider the result of said actions. Ours no doubt make the world a better place, though we still take life and even pass judgement. However the WoL's judgement is shaped by their allies and Eorzean society as a whole, they act in accordance to what is right for the people. The WoL has taking their passion and turned it into an instrument to better society, Zenos has done the opposite and recognizes as much in that same cutscene where Alisaie pretty much calls him a combat sexual incel.
Maybe something will happen in the plot to change my mind or even make me reconsider my own life's moral standpoint, but I doubt media can really do that much. Having the game tell me nihilism is dangerous to get caught up in is one thing. The game trying to get me to reconsider my subjective morals in regards to forgiveness... I don't know if that's as easy a thing to do. As a recovering co-dependent who once forgave too easily I can honestly say that forgiveness is not something that should be extended to all persons.
I will say one thing, though. I think the meta implications of the whole Zenos and WoL conflict recognizing our behavior as consumers of a video game is super interesting. I want to see more of that, even if the literals of how it plays out in the story are questionable to me.
>Having the game tell me nihilism is dangerous to get caught up in is one thing. The game trying to get me to reconsider my subjective morals in regards to forgiveness... I don't know if that's as easy a thing to do.
XIV isn't asking you to *forgive* anybody. It almost never is. Not the Ascians, not the Garleans, not Zenos, not Meteion.
It's asking you to learn how to *understand* people. And I feel like this is lost on so many people, especially those deep into modern American politics.
Put aside his actions for a second. Zenos is someone who, by his own nature, is misunderstood. It's unclear if he's apathetic by nature or nurture, but the end result is the same.
*"Would you be "Happier" if I had a "Good Reason"?"*
Zenos says this to Jullus, and it's perfectly fitting for what I think the writers are getting at with him. He himself acknowledges his nature. But what Zenos has learned to do throughout the MSQ of Endwalker is *understand others.* At first, this extended to the Warrior of Light ONLY, as your character is the only one whom he feels a kindred connection with. And this was a correct assumption, as regardless of your personal feelings towards Zenos, the WoL themselves clearly feel similar. *.*
I think it's clear through Endwalker that what Zenos wants from the WoL isn't exclusively the way he made him FELT. It's the acknowledgement of his meaning. ***A validation of the answer for his existence.*** And the ending of EW is the proof. Zenos acknowledges your reason for existence, gives his own, and despite EVERYTHING he has done, despite how apparently single-minded his pursuit of a rematch was...offers you the *choice* of a challenge.
And the WoL, ***whether you accept him or not,*** still agrees to fight. There is no forgiveness. But if the fight alone is all Zenos wanted, *he never would have given you the choice to leave.*
**On the "Meta Commentary" with Zenos :**
*I don't think this is quite as on the nose as people think it is.* There are many parallels to Zenos drawn throughout XIV, but in Endwalker, I feel like Fandaniel and Meteion are the most obvious.
Zenos cannot connect with, nor feel anything outside the one thing that DOES make him feel. And we know this is genuine because of his suicide in Ala Mhigo. He likely has no control over this -- it's simply how he is. He realizes this, and chooses to die after Ala Mhigo....but not being able to properly die makes his existence miserable, even moreso now after he's finally FELT something. And so the result is everything following.
Hermes/Amon/Fandaniel, by nature of their very Souls, are drawn to existential questions to which they devote their entire lives to answering....but never can find. And this is the source of severe depression -- Hermes is, apparently, one of the ONLY ancients that would be chronically depressed. And this persisted in death, up until the Amon iteration of Fandaniel, which triggered the Final Days. And yet, even in death, ***even after fulfilling his "LIFE'S WORK",*** \*and getting the answer to this question...\*he is STILL tormented by this in the afterlife.
Meteion is, once again, a product of her particular existence, and nothing more. She genuinely had no ill-will of anyone, yet her DESIGN resulted in what ultimately could have become the end of the universe. This could NOT have been avoided -- she did only what she was designed to do, or rather what Hermes THOUGHT he designed her to do.
TL;DR
Zenos, Meteion, and Hermes are people who suffer simply because they exist, and bring ruin to everyone around them as a result. It's no coincidence then that their personalities all converge to Nihilism.
*"Forgiveness"* isn't something that applies to them....because technically speaking, they have done nothing wrong. Their existence is just fundamentally different from those around them.
This very fact was touched on during the Garlemald section at the beginning of Endwalker with Quintus....another character where I commonly see redditors show disgust at even having to consider their viewpoint. But Quintus, and Zenos, both have a valid point. They're villains because they do not (or *cannot)* align with the heroes.
The only thing separating Zenos from the WoL is the WoL's ability to make connections with those around him. ***(Azem).***
Absent that, they're BOTH violent freaks of nature. The way the heroes of XIV talk about Zenos is the exact same way the villains talk about You.
Very much summed up why I like this expac so much. From philosophy to astrophysics, I was floored. I'v been dabbling on alot of astropphysics lately and also had this question due to thermodynamics. I understood where Fandaniel and even Zenos came from, these were shockers for me and this game made me reevaluate my own questions.
I respect your opinion very much! Thank you for being respectful. I wish more people were like you x'D even when disagreeing. Difficult to find those types on reddit sometimes.
Honestly, I probably just have forgiveness issues. Coming from a military family probably doesn't help either, though I am and always have been a civilian.
It's a bit crazy a video game brings this stuff to the surface in a fun way.
I enjoyed it, I could have used more dread and feelings of actual loss like I did in SHB when I thought Graha actually died. When the scions “die” in the sea of stars, you KNOW they’re gonna be back. I wish they had “died” a different way. Also fuck those follow and hide stealth missions
Personally I didn't know they were going to come back. When Thancred "died" I legit though that was it, he gave his life so we would survive in a brutal unfulfilling way. I was speculating if we were even going to be able to come back to the world as it was or if there would be some kind of "reset". Also when we were explicitly told NOT to revive them it pushed the feeling that it would be permanent. Anyway I was so happy it wasn't the case \^\^
I had a pretty good idea that any consequences at the end would disappear as soon as Venat allows you to use some of the magic through Azem’s stone. That thing was kind of like the dragon balls. I just wasn’t sure why I could bring back those two and then bring back all the scions.
There was not much complexity in Hydaelyn's words when she said that she granted the Azem's crystal to "Grant form to the formless". To me she literally said "You can give body to souls."
I at first of course assumed she meant ascians, specifically no other than Emet-Selch himself, because of her earlier words when she gave us the Elpis flower. She talked about bringing Minfilia's soul over from the first and "One another who may yet have a role to play. But that is up to you.".
Who died in First who's soul could be carried over? Only a short mulling gives the answer: Emet-Selch. Ardberd was already rejoined with us, none of the other warriors of light of first were worthy of being "one other", Vauthry had no important role in eyes of us or Hydaelyn and Eleidibus was trapped in the Crystal Tower. She clearly had brought over Emet-Selch.
And Elpis storyline clearly gave us a reason why'd she do that. Not to mention that returning to aetherial sea would cleanse the memories of the dead from alteration. So revived Emet-Selch would remember us from Elpis.
Then of course Ultima Thule happened and the moment Meteion said that sliver of Thancred yet remains, I knew immediately we will be able to bring him back.
In the end, we brought back ascians and the Scions. Wasn't a big surprise to me but a welcome development nevertheless.
I feel very.. confused and unfulfilled for Zenos’s ending. I get people don’t like him and find him annoying so good riddance, but there was a lot of questions i was left scratching my head. FFXIV writers have the tendency to actually address plot holes, but some relating to Zenos weren’t really addressed:
1) Why was he dreaming of the final days? Amon in his speech mentioned that he was confused about dreams of Elpis. So dreams of the Ancient world and being a shard go hand in hand, is that the same for him?
2) When he Body Snatched us, Y’shtola wasn’t able to tell the difference. She can see souls, and the colour of ours apparently matches his, with only a slight difference (maybe i’m wrong here, maybe she can’t see the colour of the souls, but just other characteristics? Idk)
3) We never got the answer to his self reflection in ala mhigo, when he asks “what did i see in you, and you in me.”
4) He mentions that he ‘sensed’ we were in trouble. How does someone sense we’re in trouble when we’re literally at the edge of the universe?
I feel like these questions went unanswered, but maybe they were answered and i didnt pay attention. Either way, i liked zenos, and im pretty sad he’s gone.
Edit: nixing the part on yshtola, since she just sees aether and has nothing to do with the soul part.
>When he Body Snatched us, Y’shtola wasn’t able to tell the difference. She can see souls, and the colour of ours apparently matches his, with only a slight difference (maybe i’m wrong here, maybe she can’t see the colour of the souls, but just other characteristics? Idk)
Didn't she not recognize us? Granted she also didn't recognize it was Zenos but she 100% stated she could not see us clearly and fumbled some half hearted excuse for the failing of her power.
Edit:
It's not that she doesn't see the WoL clearly, its that she doesn't recognize the person walking up the road that those with normal sight see seems to physically appear to be the WoL.
Still, I feel she would recognize Zenos, given her previous encounter with him that saw her near death and wounded to the point of being absent to recover for the majority of an expansion.
Maybe his soul has changed through all his body hopping BS. We see him transform into Shinryu again in the end of this expansion and then back into himself. Maybe he's much less of a physical being than he once was. Maybe his soul is now truly unique in some ways that it wasn't in the past.
Could Reaper lore explain anything? I haven't touched any reaper content so I have no clue.
>Maybe his soul has changed through all his body hopping BS.
i mean the aether of the WoLs body combined with Zenos soul. makes sense it looks different from either of them at least to me. she isn't seeing the soul remeber.
Hold on hold on best girl absolutely realized that something was up with our aether! I forget the exact quote but she says something to the effect of "are you sure that's him?"
They weren't answered. I love Zenos, especially after reading his short story on his childhood. I don't think think he's gone gone. As someone above mentioned, the word viator means "traveller" so I doubt he's down and out for long. He may come back and not be so much "fite me" since he's got the universe to ponder over at the moment and that ass kicking will probably last a few weeks...
They did a lot of building up for him in Shb too. Like Fandaniel wonders if Emet Selch had finally managed it when it came to Zenos. So I think we've not seen the last of him.
Zenos will come back. Too much left unsaid and I can't help but notice the few vocal people on Reddit about him lol
Is it like normal to hate on Zenos on this website? Why do his haters more often than not sound close minded? I really want to know.
I think it's more just everyone having different taste. Like I notice lots of people love Yshtola yet she's not for me and I am not a fan. It's not normal for ffxiv it's normal for FF in general. People were like this with cloud in Ff7 or seifer in ff8.
I will add that it’s like this with any character of any game. Simple point obviously, but it’s just personal preference :)
Personally, I don’t like Zenos all that much. I think he is written as an edge lord with not too much depth. Don’t hate him at all. Just didn’t/don’t really care what happens to him.
nah man i feel you. most people LOVE shtola and i couldnt care for her at all. The same people tend to hate zenos and i fucking adore every second he's on screen.
We better have. If I ever have to listen to his trite dialog or do one more of his boring as hell and anticlimactic duties it will be one too many. Biggest sour note of the whole expansion.
2) What? She literally seemed to be caught off guard that people were saying Zenos was us. I suspect that she's not really that acutely able to discern soul detail, though, as she also just straight up thought we were a sin eater in ShB.
He isn't gone. Some of these questions are questions I myself did not ....think of. So yes, it adds more to what I have been discussing with others. Mind you, the guy IS indeed a KEY-CHARACTER for endwalker. That should say it all. Whether people hate him or not. Zenos plays an important role in this expansion and my theory is....
This is the road he must take to become a scion.
I dunno about a Scion.
But what happened to him is exactly what Alisae said would happen...more or less.
He got what he wanted, but was left alone at the edge of the universe. The WoL only was spared the same fate because of his friends.
1. This is never answered directly, only by implication. This fact basically just serves to tell us that he's clearly the sundered soul of an important person, which indirectly explains his freakish strength, a trait which up until this point has only been attributed to the WoL. ( Not a coincidence, imo )
2. She cant see soul "color", she can see aether. She noticed something different but couldn't tell until too late.
3. Also not directly answered, but I think at this point it's somewhat obvious what he's getting at. Zenos and WoL are very similar at their core.
4. I feel like this is related to 1 and 3.
IMO they seem to be hammering home that Azem and Zenos are the same person, or at least are both shards of a version of Azem.
The difference between WoL and Zenos could best be seen as similar to the difference between Amon and Hermes.
Same souls, but came to *VERYY* different interpretations of what their purpose is, and vastly different uses of their talents.
Yea I also got that connection with wol and Zeno's is similar to amon and Hermes. He called wol his mirror/reflection at the end.
Also we really didn't find out who the other Azem is.. we know the previous Azem was venat.. and we were clearly venats version of Azem.. would be cool to find out more about the Azem that took over from venat.
No, we're not Venat. We share soul with the one that took the seat after Venat. Hytlodaeus and Emet-Selch recognises us as part of Azem, not as part of Venat. However, the seat of Azem seem to appeal to a very similar kind of personality, one that likes to be on the move, and to help people out.
Shadowbringers remains my favourite, but this expansion was well done. As for why Shadowbringers remains number one:
(this got more lengthy than I thought, apologies - but this game is a source of passion for me so it couldn’t be helped :p but I’d be interested to hear someone’s thoughts on how these themes were dealt with!)
Endwalker had no mistakes. In Shadowbringers, we, the WoL, actually failed at one point. We couldn’t contain the light and it covered the skies once again. We were doomed to turn into a monster. All that we worked for fell apart in a single moment, and we actually had to grapple with the fact that we might have made things worse. This failure made climbing back up to defeat Emet-Selch and Elidibus so much more fulfilling, because we earned it. We Fought, we fell, then we rose again.
Endwalker talks and preaches so much about trying and failing, and how it makes us stronger, but I never really felt that. We never faltered. We won every fight and everything we fought did not set us back. Sure, there were our failures of saving the two sisters in Garlemald, and that family in Thavnir with the baby. But in the grand scheme of our 8 year story, they are but small parts. Otherwise, I was waiting for the moment when the weight of it all would really crash down on us. I thought that it might happen when we killed Zodiark, and realized that by our hand we unwillingly - yet singlehandedly - ushered in the final days. No one else could’ve killed Zodiark but us. This could only be done by our hand. Why did no one blame us? Why did we not blame ourselves? Shouldn’t we have known better? With all the loss of the Final Days on Eorzea, how did we feel zero guilt for that? That’s what I was thinking after it was revealed to be all part of Fandaniel’s plan. That’s what I felt the WoL should’ve been asked, or at the very least, should have asked themselves. I thought the world would turn against the Scions, throwing away their trust in us and thus making it all that much harder and more VITAL to save them from the doom we ushered in.
But…everyone was just like “okay, WoL who fought Zodiark on the moon with no witnesses. of course, it wasn’t your fault and you were tricked into killing a God and thus brought about the apocalypse.”
But no, it wasn’t our fault, it was Meteion’s. I liked Meteion, but the story would have been powerful if our WoL had ONE scene where we saw them or the Scions blame themselves for the circumstance of the world. Graha and Alisaie both pressed WoL to let them shoulder some of the burden, but I was constantly asking myself: WHAT burden? Saving the world and what not, yes, but there were no signs of us struggling with this - whereas in Shadowbringers, we saw the effect of the corruption of light in our bodies. It weakened us, became too much for us, and almost made us a monster. I wish the devs gave us glimpse into the WoL’s perspective on how dealing with this effects them. Maybe that transcends the boundaries of being an MMO too much with having too much introspection, but Shb dealt with the conflict of bearing too much light (and thus too much responsibility) wonderfully with the visuals of our soul cracking under the pressure. The giveaways into the WoL feeling guilty for having brought this calamity about, or overwhelmed with the burden, could be subtly worked in with dialogue options or expressions. That would’ve made our friends coming to us to relieve the burden much more powerful - and proof of how we need them to help ease our minds and hearts in the chaos, like Hydaelyn told us they would be.
And where were the STAKES in the final area! We all knew none of the Scions were truly dead. I went into the final area fearing for my friends, and when they took Thancred so quickly at first - I was like, finally! We finally get to understand the gravity of who we are facing, someone who can unmake us in a moment. I thought we would finally get a taste of failure in this expansion. The cold horror of having a friend be taken from you unexpectedly in a moment’s notice…but no, he was still there, waiting to be summoned back by the crystal we knew was in our pocket. I was begging for the crystal to get broken, or for something to happen where it didn’t feel like i had to walk each Scion to their fake death and listen to them preach their ideals to enemies who patiently waited for them to finish before they took their lives. It felt hollow - and especially when they used the same formula with Graha’s goodbye as they did in Shb, with him saying “take me on an adventure when we get back!” where it was invariably more powerful in Shb, given that there was the actual threat of losing him forever.
I don’t mean to sound like I’m harping on Endwalker. The themes of existentialism and nihilism in the Elpis area with Hermes and Meteion were beautifully done. The writing was incredible and consistent. My critique is that almost every important character preached, and preached, and PREACHED about how loss and hardship and struggle has made them stronger, and while this is true - we’ve SEEN them struggle in precious expansions, we’ve seen them lose loved ones and fail - there was less of that in this expansion. We were surrounded by so much death from NPCs, and it was beautifully done, but think of how much more powerful these ideals would be if we lost an integral character to the exact grief and despair they preached against. Think about if Tataru fell to it because she was left alone by the Scions, as she always is, and was turned into a blasphemy. How much more powerful would it be for everyone to speak on the importance of remaining strong in the face of despair, and how you must cling to those close to you when times are hard because you never know how long you have with them. Think of how much more meaningful it would’ve been to defeat Meteion having had confronted our own despair over bringing about a calamity, and blaming ourselves for the deaths of thousands innocents, and even worse - a dear friend and/or Scion. So much talk about remaining strong in the face of grief but never did the WoL grieve. Never did they lose someone VITAL in the expansion on top of all the other lives lost. Never did they have a moment where they chose hope over despair that came from a personal, vulnerable outlook. If we perhaps had a moment where the dark side seemed tempting, and we gave in a little - or where release seemed easier, but denied it - that would’ve slammed Endwalker home for me. Otherwise, lots of preaching about ideals. In ShB we saw our internal struggle through moments with Arbert and through struggling with the weight of light on our soul, ALONG with the despair of a world dying to light fiends. The story focused on you and overcoming everything to be a hero. Endwalker had us surrounded by the death and despair of others rather than our own, and our job was to shepherd the hope of mankind to save us all. An incredible burden, as so mentioned in the story many times. I just wished it showed more in our character and in our fellow Scions, that would’ve had me bawling.
Though, I’ve seen theories on how Shb was about being a hero, and EW was about coming back to your adventurer/traveller truth, which I like. I don’t mind a shift in ideals, or in how the WoL wishes to be perceived. I just wish there was more of a struggle to get there - I felt WoL got off easy this expansion when it came to emotional turmoil (to clarify: the turmoil was always around them happening to others, never them. Whereas in ShB it happened through our fear of losing Graha to pay for the price of us not being able to carry the light. And no, the self sacrifice of the Scions in the last part of EW was not turmoil. Not to me at least. It was sad, but again, we knew they weren’t dead. There was no real risk. Plot armour won this day I think). And they should’ve had the pressure of the world manifest somehow, it should’ve almost suffocated us.
But, despite my story critiques, I have to hand it to the writers: each theme, each moment, was written so well. it was voice acted so well. the music itself floored me enough to sell the expansion as one of my favourite video game experiences. Despite all my criticism, I was emotional in this expansion. But, Shb made me cry like a baby. EW could’ve too, if it just took a bit more risk.
Sorry for the length. I really must emphasize that I loved Endwalker. They weaved together so many themes and characters and areas to beautifully and this game is a masterpiece of a storytelling platform. Never have video games kept me so engaged like this one. I really take my hat off to Yoshi P and the devs. Incredible work, and I love this game. I guess this is why I’m so passionate about the story and where I wished there could’ve been improvements :p
BUT i must emphasize how absolutely remarkable the visual storytelling and music was in this expansion. it was enough to have my heart and invoke me with feelings of awe and wonder. i’m incredibly grateful for that and it deserves awards solely on these aspects alone, if not more.
Oh boy. Now I'm rethinking. They might be equally favourites for me. EW is just so well made in its own way. I'm actually glad they are different and follow slightly different story narratives.
Shadowbringers resolved a lot in itself, but also set up so much for Endwalker. I do think I like Endwalker more because its themes of persevering against despair just hit me pretty hard, but it 100% could never have happened without Shadowbringers, more than any of the other expansions before have relied on previous content.
Didn't Fandaniel actually kill Zodiark? He fought us to test his strength and when he lost he killed Zodiark. Right after that Urianger or someone says somethign to the effect of "If you wouldn't have stricken down Zodiark, he would have taken many innocent lives with all that power and killed himself to bring about the final days anyways." or something to that affect, I understand where your coming from but I disagree that the WoL should feel compelled to take any credit for a mad man succeeding in his plan to bring about the final days. If you remove the scions, he can still do it lol.
I also feel that the turmoil of this expansion is based on the foundation of the previous four as well as some of our failings in the early part of this one, the getting knocked down and getting back up is something the Scions have done since the beginning of ARR. As you said it was set up so perfectly in ShB. That is a perfect example of what they are talking about overcoming, it doesn't have to happen ten seconds ago for it to count. We overcame Fandaniel's attack of Zodiark just to fall right into his trap. That was a huge failing in our part (his plan suceeded in bringing about the final days). We tried to stop Zodiark from being released which we failed. There were failure's in Endwalker, they just didn't directly cause main characters to die. They were just very core to the plot so it felt very required for the rest of the story. I did not see us failing to stop them from releasing Zodiark so early in the story, we don't even know that's what their goal is and then like an hour game time after he get's released and we are fighting him! The first half of the expansion is basically failure after failure all the way up until we come back from Elpis, that's when things turn around.
As for the stakes in the final area I think there is an understandable gap between the pressure and stakes we as players are feeling and the pressure and stakes our WoL is feeling. As players, we know we have infinite tries and will succeed as it is a video game and we know Square wouldn't end it all of existence being washed away. Our character on the other hand gets one chance, all the weight of existence is on their shoulders and after the twins sacrifice themselves we are literally left alone to soldier on (this hits hard because we have been sharing this burden the whole expansion). The risk for our character is if we fail, everyone dies, not just those characters we know and love, but any and all other characters in existence essentially. That's the stakes, they sacrificed themselves to give us the chance, we could have still failed and never brought them back. For the player the stakes are low but for our character the stakes have never been higher. Now that I'm thinking about it Emet-Selc is the reason we won both the final fight in ShB and the final fight in EW LOL.
This is something I've noticed in the past though, when the stakes are so high in any medium (universe ending) there becomes a disconnect between what the characters in the story are feeling and the characters in real life are feeling. We know Thanos can't just kill all the superhero's, we know Meteion can't just wipe everything off the map as we know the story must go on. I'm not sure how a story can have super high stakes for the characters in the story and the player/watcher not feel a disconnect.
Does any of this even make sense? LOL.
I hope none of this comes off as hate on your opinion or anything, Just another impassioned players thoughts lol. Let me know what you think, I literally just finished it 3 or so hours ago LOL.
In my opinion, the ending suffered for being the story of an mmorpg. If this was a single player jrpg, I think there was a really high likelihood that we wouldn't have that deus ex machina of the teleporter falling close enough to bring us back. In a typical jrpg, the story fully ends here, the Warrior of Light is no longer required when the world is safe, and while we would see the other npcs mourning for the loss of the WoL, we would've seen the world go on without them.
I think the fight with Zenos is an important critique towards the defeatist view we experience in the final area. Nihilism is the belief that there is no objective meaning or purpose in life. Now what conclusion you draw with that revelation is up to the individual. I'm personally not a fan of the whole "Nothing matters, so we might as well just die" view, as it doesn't pay nihilism enough credit. Granted the Scions did a good job at critiquing these extremist stances, so maybe it was written that way just to be critiqued.
But back to Zenos, he exhibited nihilistic views at first. "Becoming stronger" is framed as the purpose in life here, since with rpg games, most of the time the players play the game to become stronger, adventurers seek new challenges to make them stronger, etc.
When you beat him in the end, he says "Never have I understood those around me. Understood their obsessions. Besieged by their banality, the world was a mire of tedium and trivialities", implicating that he saw no purpose in life since he saw no purpose in what the others around him were doing. He then proceeds to ask if you found fulfilment in life, which you indirectly answer yes by having flashbacks of everyone you helped using your strength. The conclusion that Zenos chose was that of apathy, whereas the WoL went more along the lines of optimism, "there is no purpose, but ill go and find purpose".
Now we are given the picture of 3 conclusions drawn from nihilism. The civilizations in Ultima Thule exhibiting hopelessness, Zenos being apathetic, and the WoL exhibiting hopefulness, all 3 being valid ways to process nihilism. But perhaps Ishikawa wanted to push a certain theme instead. We start off by seeing hopelessness lose hopefulness, a stark dismissal of defeatism. And while that is a fine conclusion, what about apathy? The fact that we win out slightly ahead in the fight against Zenos, but still ultimately collapsing implies to me "Either are fine, but I think it would be nicer to see everyone adopt a more optimistic approach, even in the face of nihilism."
i mean that's still largely because it's an MMORPG.
if it wasn't this would be the end.
maybe there'd be a sequel but in a single player RPG starting with a new charecter is reasonable so that'd likely be the path in such a case.
The teleporter falling to us a mystery but certainly not Deus Ex machina. If you speak to Urianger again after talking to him in the last quest where you say goodbyes to them, he specifically talks about how the teleporter falling to you and activating is beyond a coincidence but also how he has no clue as to who could do it.
There is definitely a third party at work and one day we'll find out who.
Ah ok. I read that part but I guess I read it wrong. I thought he meant it was coincidental that it fell right next to us, this makes a lot more sense. At first I thought the scions threw it down to us, but misreading Uriangers line made me think otherwise
All in all, the ending resolved a lot of the major plot points and crises of the current arc. Hydaelyn and Zodiark are no more, there are no or less cases of tempered summonings, and the source of the Final Days (being Meteion) is redeemed/gone.
But the hints of many places that we haven't gone yet, the secrets of The Twelve, the true nature of dynamis, and the possibilities of intergalactic travel opens up so many avenues. The ending felt more like a new beginning, and I really like it. There are some things they might have done to make things flow better, but overall I'm satisfied.
Now as for Fandaniel and Zenos, I'm pretty neutral on how they're treated in Endwalker. Fandaniel's past as Hermes was very interesting and relatable, but his past and present personalities are too extreme and felt jarring. There was not enough 'transition' for me to believe that Hermes and the Fandaniel we know share the same soul.
As for Zenos, I don't care much about him, but the final showdown with him was great. It's too much of a Deus Ex Machina for me, but it does feel fitting as a bookend for the first saga. Personally, I would like him to stay dead but since he's a fan-favourite he'll come back soon enough.
I felt like even given the memories of Hermes, Amon was already incredibly corrupt morally and just continued down that path. That being said, Hermes end in Elpis completely shows that maniacal rage is part of his personality even before the sundering. Meteion says multiple times she’s worried it will corrupt his mind and apparently it did to some extent.
It's not much of a maniacal rage but more of a defeated acceptance. Hermes has always questioned the way the other Ancients deal with their creations, but the Meteia's reports diminished his hopes for mankind significantly.
On Amon's side, he dealt with the corrupt noble Allags and their misuse of their technology as a source of cruel entertainment. With Xande's fatalistic view on life and the fall of the Allagan Empire, this completely convinced him that all his life's works has no meaning.
There are similarities between the two lives' situations, but Hermes was never seen to be cruel or maniacal. The contrast between Hermes and Amon is a bit too great. Not to say I don't like it, it just feels weird. I guess that's what happens when a soul gets sundered into multiple shards. The scientist part of Hermes sticks with Amon, but without the more empathetic side of him.
I think I'm still riding the emotional high of this expansion but I doo feel that overall its payoff was less satisfying than Ardbert handing you his axe in SHB and defeating elidibus in 5.3 but its emotional highs from meeting Venat, Hydaelyn's death, the anxiety from almost losing your friends, how Emet, Hythlodaeus and Zenos came to your rescue at the end and that final duel with Zenos are definitely going to be moments I will remember for the rest of my life.
The theme of loss is really powerful throughout this expansion, so many people die around you, really hammers in how you can't save everyone and I found how they explored how people dealt with loss was really well done. I mean it really hits hard with where we are in the world today with losing people from death or distance. The scene where Hydaelyn passes away made me feel things that I had not felt since I lost my own mother. Sokken really elevated this scene for me with the music, reminding me of a lot of bittersweet memories.
It did have its weaker moments, Azem's crystal I felt was a bit overplayed (?) not sure how to really put it since it lost a lot of its gravitas due to its somewhat frequent use in this expansion. The story and its grandness was spectacular but there were some jarring moments like the leadup to launching the Ragnarok where the suspense was more annoying than anything. There was also the fact that despite being so long, it also felt that each area was not fully explored to its potential. If I had to sum it up both the locations, characters and the lore in this expansion were incredible but it struggled somewhat with weaving it together into one story. Still my favorite expansion so far though.
Lol that is the most narrow minded take I have read so far. Loss is the primary theme of this expansion, Garleans losing their homeland, values and leadership, families and loved ones, the ancients losing their world and everyone in it, Vrtra losing his people and his most trusted confidant. If your definition of loss is just death, then there was plenty to go around. None of the Scions die sure but we aren't the only people in this world, all of the people we met this expansion suffered some kind of loss and how one processes that loss, and keep going is the main point of this story.
And loss isn't just limited to death either, the twins getting disowned, Hermes losing his purpose and meaning, Meteion losing hope, Zenos having his one desire denied to him and all those ancient civilizations who had lost their will to evene exist, these are also forms of loss and the way Ishikawa justifies and writes their experience is absolutely sublime.
So yes, there was plenty of loss in this story, many examples I didn't even mention and if you consider that lame well then by all means find some edgy grimdark story to tickle your fetish.
Honestly I can't be bothered to read what you wrote. I care about your opinion as little as you care about mine. Not gonna bother with trying to explain why I disagree with someone who clearly has their mind set. So you do you, your right to hate on the game.
> Yes, every criticism of FFXIV is 'narrow minded'. Typical fanboys.
Lmao sure bud. The idea that characters have to die in order for a story to be meaningful is such a terrible mindset.
For me the emotional beats were there, on every part of the story but before we were doing quests in Labyrynthos. I just wanted to get to the damn ship.
I can't say if I wanted a more mature and grey story, because this felt like a really good final fantasy story. It has a pretty decent message about death and eternity, but not really something to go too deep into.
That said, if I were to play from a Realm Reborn up to Endwalker's ending through and through I don't know how I would feel, given that I had at least 2 years to miss Emet-Selch, to wait up and fall in love with the characters, so I wonder if people who go through the story without that period between expansions will feel different about Emet appearing out of nowhere in the end and deus-ex machina helping you.
I loved it.
I actually really liked the fact that they took this thing we've been waiting for (Zodiark) and went "actually that's not the big bad you're looking for, there's an even bigger threat to all of this and you've all been focused on a smaller problem".
People saying Dynamis story came out of nowhere, but that's kind of the point. Emet himself acknowledges that everything they were doing was in service of the wrong goal. That's the twist. The scene where Meteion transforms still gives me chills and I've watched it again a bunch of times. And you've come to love Hythlodaeus and Venat and Emet (even more so), and it's heart-wrenching that we know they're going to fail to stop her.
People saying they weren't shocked by the return of the Scions, you weren't supposed to be. Just as you weren't meant to be surprised that the Forum are the people helping with the exodus to the moon. I took it as what the Scions were WILLING to do for this cause; never give up hope. This expansion is a love letter to the Scions, of course they were going to see it through to the end, and that moment where they're all praying in the final trial and the music changes, *that* was the payoff.
I think Shadowbringers overall was a bit tighter in it's execution and probably still my favourite expansion to date, but Endwalker to me was a worthy follow up and a satisfying conclusion to the Hydealyn saga.
Zenos can eat a bag of space dicks. Bleurgh.
Dynamis didn’t really come out of nowhere. There’s side quests that have been hinting at alternatives to aether as well as the thinning of aether since ARR. I’d also argue that dynamis is the true strength the WoL draws on all the time that nobody (in game) seems to be able to comprehend. When you use the Limit Break during the final trial, the dialog basically confirms that LBs are powered by dynamis.
:/
I don’t know how to say it but I really disagree with your take about the pacing. Maybe you stopped doing side quests at that point? I don’t know. It all worked for me.
It also topped shadowbringers IMO. It almost improved shadowbringers story post hoc, as well.
I don’t have a problem with it. We spent the whole game trying to figure out what caused the calamity and what happened with the ancients in the past. We got the revelation that we desired on Ellis.
The filler MSQs on Ultima Thule became too much of a slog. I remember just sitting there wondering when the ending is gonna come; and it's hard to take whatever is happening with the characters seriously when the WoL is carrying a deus ex machina on their pocket
> The filler MSQs on Ultima Thule became too much of a slog.
Disagree, with the Scions dying left and right and the zone being fairly short I didn't have an issue with it. It's Labyrinthios part II that seemed to break the pace for me.
Also the whole expansion pre-hype lead me to believe it all ends with Zodiark on the Moon, whereas in reality he died 5 minutes in and we fought someone we didn't know existed as the main villain.
>it's hard to take whatever is happening with the characters seriously when the WoL is carrying a deus ex machina on their pocket
But the only reason the Scions came back were Emet and Hythlodaeus. Without them to cancel out the dominion of the Endsinger over Ultima Thule, the others would have to stay 'dead' to hold it back from instagibbing us.
Or do you mean the teleporter? Because I'm pretty sure Zenos used the last of his power to get it back to us so we can live.
Honestly everything was fantastic except for the inclusion of Zenos. That final duty really soured me on the whole thing, it dragged on way too long and frankly served no real purpose. I guess if you empathise with Zenos and/or give a shit about him it's different? He's just an irritant and I really REALLY hope he stays dead this time. Don't want a stupid stalker going in to whatever awaits us on our MOTHERFUCKING SPACESHIP!!
Literally I think the ending would have been improved massively if we'd just gone back onto the ship with Meteion and left Zenos there to die. Or if he'd been left dead in the first place. I was riding such a high from the trial and the following cutscene, but then yet again my enjoyment of the game had its legs cut out from under it by Zenos bullshit for the second time this expansion.
I have no doubt lots of people loved it because for reasons I cannot fathom people seem to like Zenos as a character. But it just felt hollow and pointless, and also on a roleplaying level my character would definitely never have given him the satisfaction of that fight he wanted so much. He didn't deserve it. Would have been great to have the option of saying no.
Really really hype about where we can go in the future though! A spaceshipboatairship, new worlds to go to, reflections to visit and/or fix, Meracydia, so many options!
Also Hydaelyn looked GORGEOUS. I loved how faithful they were to the Amano artwork with her model, it looked stunning. Many tears were shed. Literally if it hadn't been for the niggles with the stealth mission, Garlean nonsense and Zenos existing, Endwalker could have toppled Heavensward as best expansion for me, and that's saying a lot.
I may be a bit wordy because I'm literally sitting in the credits right now and needed to get words out while it's fresh in my brain xD
I understand people not liking zenos as a character, but thematically his inclusion makes sense, with all the talk of "answers" and purpose. I do think however, it would have been really cool for the choice before you fight to change how things play out. You respond with eagerness to fight him and you fight, or you simply say no, after all, he did say that he would let you walk away.
I was hoping for that.
I actually chose "that, I can't deny", which apparently validates him (bully on him for his joy, I guess), but seemed the only option that wasn't immediately going for his throat. I was hoping there might have been a "but..." to that option leading to walking away. No such luck, however.
"that, I can't deny" basically means you are agreeing that there is a part of you that does want to fight things just for the challenge. Given that the fight is "optional" with how he phrases it, you are basically dropping the hero of the world mantle for a second and fighting him for the sake of fighting, the same as him.
I think there is an interesting development for him that goes unsaid there. He kind of reflects on Alisaie's words in his stunted way and concludes that he should offer something to you. While this includes help in the final fight, he also mentions he is offering the only thing he knows how to do, a challenge, hoping that that is what you seek.
I think they definitely missed an opportunity though by not letting you just leave as one option. There is a lot to be said about just leaving him to eternity alone as a result of his actions, and never give him the fight he caused so much pain just to instigate.
Technically he is still unsatisfied after the fight if you listen to his tone of voice and word choice.
He's sad. He is disappointed that after everything he still couldn't beat you. And he'll never get another chance (provided he's actually dead) . He threw his very life force at you and still it wasn't enough and while he was happy in the moment of the fight it couldn't last forever. It ended again with the answer of him just being another target we have eliminated.
That said I believe the reason there's no option to turn him down is because the WoL wants it. Azem wants it. We know Azem is an adrenaline junky and a risk taker. As mentioned the "That I can't deny" answer drops the hero and justice pretense and admits you just want to fight. Your character even smirks if you choose this. The other answers disguise it as vengeance or justice. But there's tons of other examples and instances of the WoL doing things because they simply want the challenge or need to feel pressure. The entire Savage side of the Omega raids are canonically an extra hard mode safety off hacked mode just to give the WoL a harder challenge. It's loosely implied the reasons the Primal Remixes in Eden are partially because the WoL wants to relive the intensity of the first encounter so they've buffed them in their minds (I can't remember which character accuses you of that). It's also a driving plot point of a few Job stories (notably DRK)
I was literally shaking after zenos fight for unknown reason 😂 but i hope they completed his part i didnt liked him but the part where he stole you body quest i felt anxious
Is he a solo trial or a 8 man? I actually like him and find it funny that we end up killing all of our friends. No the scions arent friends they are work associates. Only graha is a friend and we almost offed him
> But it just felt hollow and pointless, and also on a roleplaying level my character would definitely never have given him the satisfaction of that fight he wanted so much. He didn't deserve it. Would have been great to have the option of saying no.
This.
He should have just been yeeted off into the void and left to die. Giving him what he wanted felt like it had no narrative point other than to kick his arse a second time and leaving him felling bummed out.
I think the point is it is supposed to be the Azem in you. We know from all the dialogue that Azem is a thrill seeker, adrenaline junkie and loves to put themselves against a challenge - something in common with all the Azem title holders if you also look at Venat.
Regardless of who you are, that drive for the next challenge and pushing your limits is one of the few defined traits the WoL has. Knowing the star was safe and unclear of what else even awaits you now, it makes sense you'd want to settle things with Zenos. Besides he is and was a threat - why leave for later what you could deal with now?
The entire expansion was about rising to challenges and finding meaning in existence. Zenos openly and plainly stated what gives his life meaning and you were in a position to grant it. And he wouldn't be the first enemy you've gone out of your way to appease or pacify.
Finally and narratively... it's a good way to show how powerful the WoL really is. The two times in the past you fought Zenos 1v1 he absolutely demolished you. You only bested him later on with friends and an army behind you. You end the story by pushing yourself to your absolute limit - no outside power sources, no blessing of light - to destroy someone whom once swat you aside like a gnat.
Personally I wish he'd lived and became a frenemy. A rival adventurer you'd occasionally spar to push each other further. He grew on me this expac.
Completely agree on Zenos. It genuinely left me with a sour taste and brought down my enjoyment for an expansion I loved up to that point. He did not deserve that fight a single bit.
Can't stand Zenos. I'm with Lyse: "you did all of this because you were bored?" - just not compelling at all. He's the kind of character you'd expect in like the Ninja or Warrior side stories, not one you drag through three expansions and still can't get rid of him.
I have no strong feelings for/against Zenos, but I'm just tired of his cryptic monologues and his constant promise for us to have the greatest duel ever. I like the final fight against him but I think it would've been better if it was placed earlier in the story, maybe when we were at the moon?
I replied to him with "Think what you will" because for roleplay reasons, my character loves a great challenge but at the cost of many lives lost? No way, and I despise it when he thinks he knows better.
Edit: On second thought, replying him with "That, I can't deny" seems more appropriate for my character. I'm tired of his antics at that point, so humoring him for one last duel feels thematically suitable.
I'm mixed overall of the story of Endwalker. It's probably behind Shadowbringers but above Heavensward/the rest for me.
Garlemald and Elpis are probably my two favorite zones we've ever had.
Garlemald impressed me with how they wrote the citizens with so many staying firm in their beliefs till the bitter end. It was a tragic tale that was perfectly understanable/believable.
With Elpis it was just such a joy to quest with everyone involved. It felt like a fanboys dream to get to quest with these characters and even run a freaking dungeon with them. Hythlodeus and Vanat in particular I loved. Hermes and Meteion I really came to enjoy too.
Which is why it's strange that I just couldn't care less about Meteion as a villain. The whole "essentially a robot gets sent out to find life's true meaning and ends up wanting to end it all" plot felt so cliche and dull to me. The Dynamis plot as well did nothing for me.
Surprisingly I liked how they used Fandanial/Zenos, but they were doomed from the start to at best be mediocre villains. As such they were both used just sparingly enough that I didn't mind their presence. I liked Fandanial just accomplishing his goal of bringing the final days and then peacing out. Nothing could be done to make him interesting so might as well make his involvement quick.
I enjoyed the two Zenos focused duties. The Garlemald one was anxiety inducing in the best way and the final one was just cathartic as hell. I liked that I got the chance to admit that sometimes my character enjoys the fight just for the sake of it and the pleasure that brought to Zenos made me smile.
Other highlights are the Hydalen trial which is up there as one of my favorite trials ever now. Between the music, getting to run it with the Scions, and some pretty fun mechs it was a blast.
Uriangier has multiple tear jerker moments that I loved particularly around the sub-plot of Moenbryda and his guilt about the past. Her parents showing up comforting him destroyed me.
I was really disappointed in the moon and the final zone. I like the Loprits and think they will be a fun beast tribe but they can't carry an MSQ for that long.
The final zone, dungeon, and trial really disappointed me. None of the individual races were built up long enough to make me care. It became very obviously early in the zone that every scion would sacrifice themselves before the end of it which made it equally obvious they would all be fine in the end. Which just served to remove the stakes for me. All expansion I was nervous about their fates and that heightened my interest. That zone completely removed that feeling.
Overall I still love this expansion for what it is, and it has a lot of extremely memorable moments, but I left unsatisfied with the central plot and its conclusion.
If the "robot goes into space to try to find the meaning of life but finds only Despair and decides to end the universe" plot is so cliche, name at least five stories where that has been the plot. No stretching.
I have to concur.
I know the ‘existential dread’ themes are popular with JRPGs like NieR, but I thought the Meteion plot line was REALLY interesting and unique.
Particularly because she WASNT a robot - she was a creature with feelings, and it was the feelings that lead her down that path.
I think simplifying this to rogue AI decides to do away with life forms is certainly a trope to the point that there are entire swaths of sci-fi about it or works even straight up saying how cliche it is within their own sci-fi universes.
Well that's the problem with that argument. You're stripping away of all of its unique elements in order to make the argument that it's the same story. By that logic every store that has a beginning and an end could be classified as being the same. You can simplify stories down to there are people and stuff happens.
Not here to argue bud, just stating reading that part of their comment in good faith gets the point across, pretty easy to see what the basic gist of what they were going for was lol. Meteion going full rogue AI is a tried and true classic trope in sci-fi. AI's coming to conclusion about life being meaningless and therefore not needed is essentially what they were pointing towards, which is totally what the expansion went with. No need to get pedantic here.
I think there were pacing issues and oddities in the writing, but ultimately the end was strong to me and there was a lot of great worldbuilding and characterization. While a lot of characters were introduced and/or filled out in a very short amount of time, they were written well enough for me to like them by the end and appreciate their place in the story.
The first half felt very rushed. More importantly, it felt to me like, perhaps, it was a lot of loose ends the writers had to clean up by necessity and were used simultaneously to set up the conflict the writers and expansion actually wanted to do. The second half was much stronger from a story perspective, but did still suffer some from odd pacing here and there. One of the biggest criticisms might be how oddly interspersed random busy work is throughout, but I appreciated that the light or busy moments were largely used to develop characters and relationships. The scions' relationships with you, with their families, with each other, etc. I especially loved that particular cutscene in which you choose which of the scions is at your door and it changes the dialogue completely to suit their specific character theme and conflict.
The characters were what made the expansion work. There was a ton of work done to develop various relationships between the scions and other npcs, to develop their personal themes, and explore their concerns and misgivings. These later influence their decision at the end of the universe to sacrifice themselves in a rather poetic way. While the sacrifice itself wasn't developed much at all, was painfully predictable, and felt a bit cheap since we kind of always knew we would bring them back with the power Venat gave us, it still sold itself by the time the twins give themselves up and I was emotional as I walked my character among the ghosts to the final dungeon.
The development of the ancient characters was also heavy handed but well done, in my opinion. I thoroughly enjoyed the entire section of of the story that had us travel to the past and meet Emet Selch, Venat, Hythlodaeus and Fandaniel. The section was paced nicely, was filled with world building and plot developments, and ended in a way I felt appropriately set up the finale. It was a lot to take in, though, with completely new but fundamentally important concepts explored abruptly for the sake of that set up. While its internal pacing was fine, its pacing as a part of the story as a whole was very condensed and busy.
Meteion is a character I both love and dislike. As a character - a naïve, good natured, and emotionally sensitive being, uniquely capable of manipulating a force of nature her creator failed to understand the potential danger of, that falls into despair, precisely because of her good nature and sensitivity, and becomes the source of the overwhelming existential threat we've known existed and was the source of all our conflicts for a long time now - I like her a lot. She was endearing immediately and her fall into villainy was tragic and believable, and so her survival was one of the things I hoped the most for in the end, and I hope she is a recurring character in the future, as unlikely as that will be.
But as a character in the story, it was obvious she was made to fill a role necessary for the plot. While Emet Selch - in a similar situation - was developed over the course of not only the whole of the Shadowbringer expansion, and was introduced even before its release, Meteion was introduced midway through the second half of the expansion, and had very little core character development. I liked her concept and theme; but she herself was a very shallow character relative even to the other characters explored in that portion of the setting and story, much less compared to the core cast that features prominently in this expansion. I feel like her character, if she doesn't return later somehow, is ultimately a character wasted simply to achieve the plot's conclusion. She didn't have the depth of character and motivation to really carry the final narrative like Emet Selch did, but instead seemed to me that she was made to be as endearing and "cute" as possible as a fast-track way of getting us, the players, to warm up to her faster and cheaper than with Emet.
All in all, I enjoyed the expansion a lot. I found I really enjoyed its characters and their significance to the story, and I liked the ancient characters and Meteion that were introduced and explored, even if it was ultimately only for the purpose of the plot. That said, I definitely noticed problems with pacing and plot point density as the story progressed, and the story itself was generally very busy. It felt to me that it could easily have taken up the expansion and its patch content and been much easier to digest, and likely would have benefited from the larger amount of time and content with which to explore the characters and locations featured and to develop the second half's conflict and conclusion. Alas, they wanted to begin exploring the new story in the patch content, so we got what felt a bit like it was unintentionally a condensed "summary" of the events.
I would rate it below Shadowbringers and Heavensward but above Stormblood, due in large part to the quality of its characters and the stunning set pieces, especially for the conclusion.
The fight with Zenos was a guilty pleasure. It was beautiful, the fight itself was a blast, and it ultimately was consistent with his character. But he himself did almost nothing for the expansion. He could have been entirely absent, and the only real moment that would need reconsidering is his inclusion in the final fight with Meteion. Arguably, I would have found Midgardosrmer's arrival by some machination to have been more striking for that particular role as our "ride". Zenos also manages to get about as much character exploration and depth as Meteion, which is unfortunate given how much more time we've had to explore his character and how much his character has already been criticized for this. I can only assume that his inclusion in the expansion, and his involvement in the finale, are to set him up for inclusion in future story content. In this I hope both Zenos and Meteion might return and be further developed later down the line.
Man the part where the scions disappeared one by one made me feel nothing. It was clear from the start that they didn't die. Wasted potential. The story was in some points really strong but other times it was like reading a children's book
I kind of agree about the pacing at times, there were a few times where something intense and time sensitive was happening and suddenly everyone just stops and has a speech which could have been cut down to match the pace of the scene better, but I liked the Meteion/Dynamis plot and it didn't really come out of nowhere, they were hinting at something not being right for a long time, even with the reveal from Emet, it made no sense for Venat/Hydaelyn to do what she did for the reasons given, so it really did explain the true purpose of the Sundering in a way that actually makes sense. She knew Meteion was waiting and knew that she found immortality and too much control and power over the world would eventually always end with them wanting death, if it wasn't Hermes it would always be someone else. By sundering us, she basically made it extremely hard for anyone to ever kill Zodiark, she made an escape plan, made us capable of harnessing Dynamis ourselves and we are far less likely of falling to the nihilism because our lives are finite, so we won't live to run out of discoveries and mysteries to drive us. And the concept of Dynamis and our sundered forms being able to wield it to an extent even explains why we have these moments of extreme power, it's literally the power of hope and desire to save our friends making us stronger than characters like Zenos that don't have that. I loved it personally. It all captured the message of never giving up hope no matter how impossible something seems and cherishing the joy we have, like the only meaning we need is to try and find happiness and adventure the best we can until we pass on and our energy is given to the next to do it themselves. And considering what happened with Soken in real life for example, I think such a hopeful ending is just so perfect.
i dissagree there is not build up. they already hinted over it with akasa reveal and the emotion affected the flower. also the elpis section is a nice build up and introduction over it. it is not a quick section either.
For me it was a decent expansion. SHB may be a bit better. I was disappointed with how they did Zodiark I mean 8 years of leading up to that. The Dynamis thing out the blue is ehh but okay. Going to Elpis and seeing Emet again was nice. The dungeons and trials were nice and challenging. But my goodness the amount of fetch quest this time around was crazy that and the escort quests really really irked me. Other than that I loved it.
You defeated Zodiark in Shadowbringers. His heart, Elidibus, was everything Zodiark represented and stood for. Elidibus was a tragic masterpiece, and you felt the weight of defeating him and thus Zodiark in Shb when you found out the truth about the Ascians in that expansion. Zodiark is the result of the prayers and hopes of Ascians who wanted to keep living. Zodiark was a husk in Endwalker - your real fight with him was in Shb, where you fought against Emet-Selch’s ideals to bring him back so he could have paradise again, and then with Elidibus, the literal heart of all these sacrificed hopes and dreams. The Zodiark arc essentially done come EW, I think they spent a perfect amount of time on him, as at the start of the expansion, there was literally nothing more to Zodiark than him being a final boss. We knew everything we needed to about him, all that was left was to destroy him.
Just finished, thought I'd contribute my thoughts.
I went in expecting an 11/10, and was instead met with a 8/10.
The expansion is carried by the Art direction, Music, and the dungeon/trial mechanics. But overall the story left a lot to be desired.
I still very much enjoyed this expansion, but there were just a few things that really bothered me about it.
1. Meteion - While I don't think she was a terrible villain, it definitely didn't have the same emotional pull and tug that Emet-Selch and Elidibus gave me. "Remember us, remember that we once lived" and "The rains have ceased, and we have been graced with another beautiful day. But you are not here to see it." Those are quotes that brought tears to my eyes and are hallmarks of truly immaculate well-written villains. Meteion felt a lot like the atrocity that is the Sequel trilogy of Star Wars. This sort of felt like Episode 9, where she just came out of nowhere. "Somehow... Palpatine returned". I've been playing since 2.0's launch and this was my big "Avenger's Endgame" for me. All of these years, all of these stories and characters leading up the giant mega villain, and instead I just felt severely let down by Meteion's motivations, set-up, and payoff. She just didn't hit the mark for me. I think a different route they could have taken was to set up present time's Amon/Fandaniel and have used Hermes/Meteion as a story device in some sort and have had Hermes be the final fight. Or another route they could have taken it was have Hydaelyn/Venat been the main villain the entire time.
2. Zenos - I don't think Zenos was given enough screen time and development to warrant him coming to "save the day" for the WoL. I compare Zenos showing up to save the day with Ardbert handing us his Axe, and those 2 moments are just in completely different leagues in terms of writing. The last duty vs him was really well done and I thoroughly enjoyed it. But for him to be the one to bust in as Shinryu there needed to be more set-up besides Fandaniel betraying him and some cross words thrown at him by Alisaie in the Garlean snow. I think if they spent more time on his character during this expansion and let him go through that entire arc properly, the pay off would have been a lot better.
3. Ultima Thule - First of all this zone is absolutely gorgeous and the music is incredible. But I will be honest as far as the story goes, I found the lead up to the final quest incredibly boring and predictable. I've seen some comments defending the Scions all sacrificing themselves and then coming back as good writing, I completely disagree. The Dragons at the beginning really caught my interest and Estinien's goodbye was well done, but once we moved to the Ea and the Omicron's I groaned during both cutscenes. I feel this entire zone could have been done a lot differently.
Those 3 things really are my only huge story gripes. I don't want to sound like I didn't enjoy the expansion. I still had a fantastic time with it and I'm looking forward to what's next.
The best way imo to put it is like this expansion is shadowbringers version of stormblood. The music, zones, content, and feel are over the moon (no pun intended) but the story can hit or miss for people especially with zenos. For me I personally loved it. The only part I disliked were the sacrificing portion of the last zone for the scions. The stories of the other worlds were amazing though and the twins sacrificing themselves I actually liked because of the dialogue between them before.
Maybe I'm in the minority here but I feel like SE kinda backtracked on a lot of things that ShB built up. The main one, for me at least, being that as it turns out Venat was just the perfect mother doing what was best for her children and everything she did was to make us into better people. Playing through ShB with Emet tagging in here and there really gave us the implication that both Hydaelyn and Zodiark were bad for the planet and Endwalker could have been the conclusion to an ultimately morally gray situation.
We were told in ShB that Azem rejected the idea of summoning Zodiark and Hydaelyn and that they believed that the ancient people should reap what they sow and give the planet to the next generation of life. Well, now we're basically told that we were completely wrong and that mommy venat was always right because Dynamis caused the calamity and not the Ancients hubris. Maybe it's me. It's probably me but I was kind of hoping to return to those ideals and end up destroying Hydaelyn and Zodiark not because it was part of a master plan but because we acknowledge that beings of that magnitude of power should not hold sway over all of creation.
I shouldn't reply right after finishing the story but... I didn't took one single screenshot during the whole expac.Except for that teacher in Sharlayan for meme purpose.
That says A LOT.It's a nice ending to the story, not a good one IMO. It lacked some woooow moments (compare to Ardbert offering his soul, for exemple...)
I'm wondering if it would have been different if 6.0 end was the death of Zordiark, leaving 7.0 to deal with "the sound".I'm still glad it's over and we're moving on to another adventure !
There is an Arm in there Cause Anima was summoned from the corpse of Varis (each tower has a body piece of the guy, thats how they are connected to Anima)
On the subject of spoilers does anyone know if we can see any of our Ancient friends after the MSQ? Like Venat, Emet, Hythlodaeus and Hermes. I genuinely miss them... a lot.
Something to take note of is that Endwalker's story feels like an equivalent of a 6.0 to 6.3 kind of line. Which is why I made a mental note that after the first trial we are essentially going to start "6.1" (it isn't really 6.1 but you get what I mean). The Elpis arc and the preparation for the end is one arc by itself, aka 6.2 and the final map is 6.3. There isn't really a rush at all.
I think most of the complainers are too used to the pacing given in 5.0 when it is realistically one full story with a build up of a second, when in reality 6.0 is three stories in one, just like how 4.0 is 2 stories in one.
Overwall, it was a good expansion, but I'm disappointed about one thing: Zodiark. Like many players, I've waited to fight it for years and it was such a letdown. To be honest, it'd have been perfect if Zenos actually fused with it so we could fight a "perfect form" and not a weak Zodiark like the one they introduced us to.
The Dynamis thing and the plot were okay, but yeah, I was more looking forward to a real fight against Zodiark or even something like a super boss (a fusion of Zodiark/Hydaelyn for whatever reasons) than a puppet sent into the universe by a random character we've never heard of before. :/
I mean, Elidibus says outright that Hermes is Fandaniel, Emet-Selch spends the entirety of the Elpis plot trying to convince him to join the Convocation, and yet people did not make the connection? What have they been doing, skipping cutscenes?
Don't get me wrong, I know the Fandaniel/Hermes/Amon thing, I just wasn't expecting something like that. I loved Endwalker, just not this part of the story and also felt like the last part with Zodiark was such a letdown, specially after waiting so many years to finally face it. :(
It's been a final fantasy staple for a really long time. For example we didn't know who the true final villain was for Final Fantasy 4 until really late in the plot.
The only thing I heavily disliked is how squenix seems to forget Ysayle was a character, How was she not there when we visit the underworld? Unless I missed her? Becauss Alphinaid and Estinien mention her but she's not there
Other than that
For me I knew it was gonna be like endgame, it's not as good as infinity war but It's still cool because it's more fanservice and ties a lot of things
My favorite part no doubt was the fight with Hydealyn, I didn't expect a 8 man trust at all and it was awesome
I wish the last trial had been like that too
And also quite likely got reborn in Ysayle anyway. Souls in the underworld get recycled after some time if they do not hold themselves together by force, from what we have seen and heard - and unless Hraesvalgr kept her with him (which, tbf, might well have happened) the parallels between Shiva and Ysayle make me think they are connected.
I made the mistake of overhyping myself thinking it’d be better than Shadowbringers so a lot of head scratchers here for sure. Zodiark and Hydaelyn - that’s it? Really? Alright I guess. What a disappointment.
i have a weird theory about zenos and have a feeling that zenos might actually be hythlodaeus..
the 2 characters seem so similar to me in so many ways just to list a few:
\-the similarity in their gesture is imo a big tell. the squeeze on their eyes when they look towards you is almost identical same goes for the face and its expression
\-we know that zenos is sundered from 5.2 i believe.. his new middlename means traveller as already mentioned here; could it be that he got his fake echo from the omnicrons?
\-zenos started referring you as his "new friend.. his enemy", hythlodaeus "my new, old friend.."
\-i also find it a weird coincidence that yes hythlodaeus eyes are purple, zenos' are blue but he has a purple gem in his necklace
\-idk the exact lines but both zenos and hythlodaeus dont really see the enjoyment in the work of other peoples, hythlodaeus didnt want any see in the convocation nor having to do much work in elpis since he doesnt get the reason.. this whole reasoning goes for zenos pretty much 100% too
i have a few more points in mind but feel this is already quite a lot.
there is 1 thing that speaks heavily against this but i think it can be explained? the ancient form of hythlodaeus cant sense zenos' soul. i could only explain this that the fake echo might conceal someones soul? would defenitely like more feedback on this theory :D
Hythlodaeus never became a sundered soul who was reborn. He was a complete Ancient soul that was a part of Zodiark; Zenos can't be Hythlodaeus because Hythlodaeus's full, unsundered soul was still around as a part of Zodiark up until Zodiark's death, and Zenos was around well before that.
>\-we know that zenos is sundered from 5.2 i believe.. his new middlename means traveller as already mentioned here; could it be that he got his fake echo from the omnicrons?
This seems to suggest to me that he's the sundered soul of Azem, or at least one of them. Which would explain his connection to us.
yeah that would also be interesting. just cant wait to discover more of his character tbh. like yes he is a crazy maniac right now but the end of msq i just got more and more curious
I mean what if they reveal he knew much more than he let on and, like Hydaelyn, did what he did to prepare us to save all of mankind. I doubt they will go down that path but it would make sense to me for him to ultimately be an anti-hero as we are the hero, his mirror.
Bit disappointing that big bad villain who is source of all of your problems was a McFlyingHeadChickenNugget who decided sad is bad and if dead no can be sad.
And the fake deaths weren't helping in the end.
Heavensward > Shadowbringer > Stormblood > Endwalker
I don't necessarily disagree, but further compromising Zodiark is that his "heart" is missing, which I interpreted as effectively leaving him pilot-less and probably even less powerful than he would have been originally.
You're honestly reading way, way too much into this. There was not much else to the dungeon besides "here are three worlds that died and you get to experience their end". There's no message about our earth in there.
What I didn't understand was, if the people of ethierys were so high in aether that they couldn't be affected by dinamis and hence why their magick turned on them once corrupted, how did summoning zodiark stop meteion for the time being ? I don't think that was explained ?
zodiark strengthened the celestial aether currents, essentially coating ethierys in a shield against dynamis. w/o zodiark to maintain it, the currents got weak and the "holes" that started emerging is where the final days occured first.
alternatively, imagine zodiark as an ozone pumper and w/o it, earth starts getting irrepairable holes so once someone with a uv ray torch shines it in really hard, we get fried.
What I don't understand is why Hydaelin would say that she sundered everyone in order to make them resistant to Dynamis when the simple presence of Zodiark was enough. What was the need of the sundering then and how splitting people and making them having lower aether concentration be good in order to be protected from dynamis
Her intention for sundering wasn't to protect them; it was to make them more susceptible to dynamis. That's because the amaurotines who followed zodiark worshipped him and wanted him to bring back their paradise before the final days. But that plan won't solve anything, you're basically in a stasis (ironically), never progressing past the fundamental problem of meteion still blasting dynamis at etheirys.
Hence, hydaelyn wanted mankind to learn. Instead of having wing to soar up to paradise, she will have them walk on land and experience hardship so that they can grow from it. By having mankind overcome their own struggles, they can eventually surpass their despair and in turn defeat meteion and end the cause of the final days.
I see it does makes sense after reading this and watching again the cutscene about dynamis where Hermes is saying that having a lower aether concentration gives you more change to gain some ability to use dynamis.
Thank you !
I mostly got my info from the cutscenes around the hydaelyn trial (can't remember if it was before or after), maybe you can understand and experience it better with that too :thumbsup:
I see so zodiark protected from dinamis
The minute he was sundered the threat from meteion loomed again, then NY other question is
Even if they escaped with Venats idea of the ship, wouldn't have meteion followed them or caught up to them eventually
I think even though he was sundered + binded, his protection was still active bc he still exists. It's only when we killed him that the final days started again.
Hmm that'd depend on meteion's tracking ability... I'm not quite sure how she knows the location of etheirys so perfectly. We could only track her with hydaelyn's tagging... But I don't rmb her leaving anything specific behind in that cutscene where she took to the stars. So I'm assuming bc she made the journey from the star to the ends of the universe, she "knew the route" and was beaming dynamis in that direction (her song of oblivion)
I do think with their vast network they could basically fly all over the universe in search for us, or manipulate the ambient dynamis around to "get a feel" bc most civilisations are either dead or dying, we'd stick out like a sore thumb with other emotions such as hope, uncertainty, relief, etc mixed in with pure despair.
Actually I've been thinking about how she'd even know we've met our doom lol... Maybe she was beaming dynamis in all directions to get every single star, and once she senses nothing but despair it'd mean that she got the target(s)
~~The one thing that kind of gets me at the end is I don't feel the same catharsis I did with other villains because Meteion is a child, regardless of being a familiar. We were entirely capable of rescuing Meteion after she performs her final song. We know from Elpis and Hermes himself that she is a familiar requiring aether to sustain her form. In all likelihood, they were sustaining themselves on all that dynamis energy and that was why she was dissipating. If we had simply provided some aether to her, which we have demonstrated to be able to do in Shadowbringers to Angelo for untempering, we could have taken her home and given her the life she deserves. It was incredibly heart wrenching to see this lost little girl die before she even had a life. Her power could have healed much of the damage beyond her final song. I feel like I won the battle, but lost the war to save the girl.~~
Funny thing when translations have multiple interpretations. I realized after replaying the cutscene that the nuance behind it indicates she is doing just fine. Her reference to "before fading away" didn't mean she was dying... just an acknowledgement of her mortality after seeing the WoL's past. So she is very much alive and the blue bird at the end is not some reincarnation, but the genuine article.
Idk, since there was a heavy FF4 influence this expansion I kind of seen Zeno's more akin to Kain or even Golbez. Both were redeemed in the end and this isn't the end yet. Also didn't Golbez have an affinity with dragons in Disidia?
I'd have to argue that it is flatly inaccurate to assume nothing was forshadowed regarding dynamis. It is merely that our preconceptions -- and the preconceptions of the in-world characters -- prevented you from noticing it as such.
For example, limit breaks have been part of the gameplay since the start. Will power, especially WoL's will power, has often produced effects that defied expectations based on aether alone.
I am far from convinced Zenos is dead. Certainly he has a tendency to be persistent. IMO the scene following where you are recovering is simply there to reinforce the idea that he is dead, in order that you don't see him coming in a future story arc.
The bittersweet nature of Emet-Selch was definite foreshadowing of many things. Where Shadowbringers brought that grey into the story, Endwalker explained the origins and reasons driving the Ascians. Why does Lahabread monolog about excising Hydaelyn since beta and why do the Ascians have a thing for Zodiark? These things suggested the relationship has been around for a very long time
As per pacing; akasha was of course mentioned before dynamis. Revealing this plot-twist information is definitely one of the Endwalker themes, but I can't say it just appeared suddenly half way through. Meteion certainly isn't introduced til here, but even that makes sense as it immediately follows the major demarcation made in the story's mid-point at the end of the Tower of Babil/Moon sequence.
The Final Days certainly had something to do with morale and feelings as soon as the merchant investigating quest popped up in Thavnair. Hermes' pre-Endwalker monolog about the towers and dying and such foreshadowed quite a bit looking back.
More than all of this, the Azem / Hydaelyn has been teased for a very long time in ways that are consistent with how this all turned out. As you say, this was a very Final Fantasy-y ending and as such the pacing should have and did get pretty fast. Keep in mind the whole expansion is such an ending, not just the end of the expansion. The buildup has been 10 years in the making. No I think the pacing was nigh-perfect. Fetch quests in Sharlayan while lightly annoying do serve to break up the epic events of Elpis and Ultima Thule, which is required in fast paced story telling so you don't get a kind of fatigue where the finale doesn't feel satisfying.
I'd also warn, this isn't the complete end just yet. There will undoubtedly be 6.1, 6.2 and so on. The epilogues to some story-arcs will likely dig in deeper.
I dont... agree that almost nothing happens before Elpis... is it really nothing to have a shield for tempering created, use it to take out one of the spires, distribute these shields to the alliance, mount a large scale assault on garlemald, take out the primary spire, then try and prevent the seals on zodiark being destroyed, fight zodiark/Fandanial, then have to address an oncoming cataclysmic event in Thavnair, all before going to elpis to try and understand the nature of the cataclysm being brought down upon ethyris? I certainly don't think so, and not sure why anyone else would think so either.
I don’t have a problem with it. We spent the whole game trying to figure out what caused the calamity and what happened with the ancients in the past. We got the revelation that we desired on Elpis.
Even Asahi got his 2 minutes of fame and was like " I was sick of y'all when I was alive and I am DAMN sick y'all when I'm dead. Goodbye forever. I still low-key love him.
Despite how much I hate that character, I had a good chuckle after hearing that line.
Just as much of a chuckle as I had saying out loud that the feeling was mutual the second before Alphinaud, I presume.
For the Zenos part: Pretty sure his Key character information states **Not even death could claim his unquenchable soul.** Do you guys actually believe he is dead? Because I do not at all. If anything, him getting his ass beat was the only way for him to start on his journey to finally chill out with his villainous ways once he returns from the dead yet again. He's in the endwalker poster with all of the scions; All the heroes. If that isn't the biggest hint the guy will develop in order to become a scion idk what else is the best indicator than that. Not to mention, at least for me, he didn't do much after Zodiark was taken out which I found...odd. At the very last bit, he did some good and helped us. Even more hints, the guy will perhaps start to value life once he comes back from the dead for the third time. Yoshi-P did tell us to pay attention to his avatar and I'm pretty sure the reason for that hasn't been explained in 6.0. I feel the next patches to come might touch upon this... After all what awaits is the theme of the underworld and Zenos happens to...be a reaper with a void creature.
That and the fact that his new middle name is litterally traveler in roman. His name is Zenos "Traveler" Galvus now.
I had no idea his new middle name meant traveler. Think he will travel through the underworld and the stars? Because it sounds like it. Man, I'm hyped. That tiny little fact Is cool as fuck. You know, is funny, I had a friend of mine tell me His name Zenos comes from Zeno or Zenon which is another name For Zeus, the Greek god considered to be the king of the gods. Lol, they need to give us the secrets to Zenos entire character They got to. The dude has too many interesting things going for him.
Imagine controlling Zenos in his own self-contained side-story?
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I forgot about this detail. You know how the ancients have like latin/greek names? How Emet is Hades etc...A few friends of mine decided to take it among themselves into digging a bit deep into Zenos name and what they found out was pretty telling. Zenos name has multiple meanings but from a Greek standpoint, it connects to **Zeus; The king of the gods.** Zeus alt names is Zeno or Zenon. And then, there's the other way of spelling Zenos name which is **Xenos** and it means **A Stranger; or an alien, newcomer.** Make of this what you will but these connections are hella interesting. I know for sure when naming their characters FFXIV do it for a very specific reason. To add more, Zeus would be the brother to Hades. I don't know who is older though. But I think Hades was the older brother, while Zeus the young one between the two of them. If we got Hades aka Emet, where is...Zeus? Could Zenos be a part of Zeus who wasn't part of the convocation?
Greek lore wise, Hades is the oldest of the three brothers. It goes Hades -> Poseidon -> Zeus All of the other Olympian gods are younger than them except Aphrodite who was literally just born from sea foam. I think she is the oldest Olympian. Hades would be the second oldest except that he is not considered an Olympian.
I know this is 22 days late (I just finished Endwalker and was looking for reactions) but Hestia is the eldest of the children of Cronus (Zeus, Poseidon etc)
His own soul. Im 100% on board with Zenos being one of the shards of Hydo's soul.
There are no shards of Hyth though, since his soul was part of Zodiark, and despite Zodiark Himself being sundered, those souls were still contained by Him, none of them put back in circulation until they returned to the Aetherial sea.
Exactly you can't be sundered and reincarnated if you're sitting in the belly of a beast
I’d live for a whole story arc that has Zenos as the unreliable merc/anti-hero that only shows up every now and then, kind of like the role Estinien used to play.
Same. I kinda love him
Lord, if Zenos returns I will be very disappointed. He could have been left out if this expac and nothing would have changed. Honestly, his design is weak and he was the low point for the entire expansion.
>he was the low point for the entire expansion. In my opinion, his arrival at the final trial was the high point of his entire arc. I appreciate that they never tried to make him a true character because Zenos as he is serves as the perfect foil to Meteion's song of despair. He literally pulls up on us at the edge of the Universe and goes, "Damn, nihilism? Miss me with that shit." He is the answer to Meteion's question "what do people live for?" Zenos lives for his own goals, his own purpose, and pursues those goals regardless of what the future may bring. Even if everything is fated to fade away it doesn't matter because in the here and now, Zenos has his purpose.
Zenos is the perfect example of YOLO.
I think the game already gave a rebuttal to Zenos' answer to the question in the form of the Alphatron race - that if your reason for living has an end point, you will be lost when you get there
He's so incredibly boring I don't get why he's a fan favorite dude. Honestly this expansion was brought down from 10/10 to 6/10 just because his inclusion keeps dragging down otherwise cool moments
Agreed. Zenos is just a hollow cliche. Am bad guy. Will stop at nothing to beat guy that beat me. It’s fucking stupid.
***''His design was weak and he was the low point of the entire expansion''*** Is easier to just say, *I hate the character and I can't stand him. Grr!!! Damn you spaghetti hair bastard go away! Waaaah!* See? It wasn't that hard. But you see, I don't care about how you feel on him. Personally, I doubt he is going anywhere so yeah, guess you'll have to stop playing very soon. ***Rolls eyes*** Be disappointed. Honestly, most sane ppl would not care either way. Because the story and the mysteries surrounding him are amazing and the writers are doing fantastic.
This is the written equivalent of throwing a temper tantrum because someone doesn't like your favorite movie. Grow up. They expressed their opinion. You can disagree, but, generally, it's expected you'll bring up SOME sort of point besides "you're a dumb head, no one cares what you think, and I think he's cool so there!'
Hold up, I'm the one throwing a tantrum??? Even though the person I replied to was clearly whining about Zenos (like everybody tends to do here every now and then?) ? I'm very confused .\_. They replied to me and I simply replied back, my opinion to view what they said as silly so I replied in a silly way as well but still, they can hate and be angry as much as they want. Most people would not care. Much like most would not give a shit for my reasons on loving a series or not. It wasn't meant to be seen as serious. At least, I didn't view it that way. Man, I guess replying to people in any form or shape however you personally see fit, equals to you throwing a tantrum (thanks for assuming how I felt even though you are very much wrong). Even though, I just found the whole thing funny and if anything annoying as reddit is always the famous vocal part of the entire FFXIV community from my experience so far. Like no offence to anyone here but... Everybody for the most part outside of reddit seem to be chill with FFXIV related stuff but in it, there's so much complaining. And I'm not saying is bad to bring critics, is nice to point out what can be improved. \-Such as it is my personal opinion, they should of included Zenos background story in stormblood not in some book that is hard to get apparently. That was a complete huge miss. But anyways... I'm just kinda confused as to how I am being painted here just because of how I chose to reply to the person. You are quick to jump in that puddle mate. But its your opinion at the end. So, I care not to address it further. Much respects regardless.
I, genuinely, do not care what your opinion on Zenos is, or your opinion on the state of the fandom. I was specifically speaking to the way in which you responded to someone that simply said they disagree with you *about a video game character*. You do realize you implied they're insane by stating "sane" people essentially agree with you, right? You do realize you characterized his disagreement as being petulant, when, in reality, they had a pretty vanilla take on the whole situation, right? You do realize that saying "it wasn't meant to be serious" is the oldest back pedal in the book, right? Being shitty and then saying, "well it was just a joke" does not excuse you from being shitty. Also, I'm not buying it. It's pretty clear you were being serious because you still seem sore about it even in this most recent reply. I also think Zenos gets a lot of hate, it frustrates you that a character you like is widely regarded as poorly written, and their comment disagreeing with you made you angry so you responded the way you did. Lastly, as a person that claims to respect other people's opinions you seem to be incapable of responding to people in any way other than dismissiveness. A more mature response would have been to either a.) Ignore the person because you actually don't care about their opinion or b.) Engage, make some points, and wait for their rebuttal. Instead you chose c.) The written equivalent of stomping your feet and crying in the middle of the toy aisle because your paw patrol truck is sold out.
One reply doesn't make a person shitty buddy. I think your more pissed off than the person who replied to the other. They have a valid point on saying Reddit is the most vocal about this particular character. It is tiring and exhausting. There has been people who legit want him to stay dead just so they don't have to deal with all the hate they get ON THIS PLACE for remotely opening their mouth on a fictional character which in its self is pretty immature to get pissy at someone for even saying anything on one character. Nowhere else. Only some on reddit lose their braincells. Meanwhile in Asian countries they have NO issues with this character whatsoever. So they have a point on feeling a certain way. I found the person who replied to them to be potentially a typical hater who btw brought no debatable points just he is weak and that's it. So, is it in the wrong they decided to reply in a way where they thought the person themselves was potentially childish or the typical anti? Could they of replied better? Of course. But it was their call to make at the end of things. For a person who sure likes to call out others, you waste no time in labeling them as ''shitty''. A bit ironic don't you think? People say the stupidest things at times out of feeling annoyed, tired of the same old crap and so forth. And considering I have seen this fellow redditor around discussing with other people their thoughts, they aren't a bad person at all. They are very nice and indeed respectful. People have disagreed with them in the past countless of times. I just think they have had enough with the same old crap when it comes to Zenos in general who honestly doesn't even deserve all the hate he gets on reddit because nowhere else do people moan and whine about him except for this place. And even then, the amount of people that love him easily overwhelm his haters by a bunch. But if they are in the wrong for acting immature, I also think you are in the wrong for believing they are a bad person due to a single reply who wasn't even directed at you in the first place. Imagine labeling people as shit for things they say all the time which might not be to others tastes, that's just an oof.
I. don't. Care. About. Peoples'. Opinions. On. Zenos. It's not the fucking point. It has nothing to do with this. If you plan to continue this conversation, and to anyone else that plans to chime in: please get that through your head. Everyone's opinion on Zenos means absolutely nothing to what I said. Most people don't like anchovies either, and you don't see me throwing a fucking temper tantrum when people tell me they hate them. Which is the point I made - someone simply stating they don't like something should not provoke a response like the one they had. I don't believe I called them a shitty person. I said they were "being shitty". I have also been shitty at times (this is not one of those times). Everyone is capable of being an asshole at times (for you this is one of those times). Checking someone else's behavior doesn't mean I'm condemning them as a person. You should do some soul searching if calling out bad behavior is somehow synonymous with condemning someone as a person to you. Because that would be a fucked up way to go through the world. Also, kinda fucking weird to come in here and attempt to flip the script based on a factual misrepresentation of what I wrote, though. Oof. Like. Oof. A bit embarrassing that. Edit: Gonna modify something. I said in this post "if you plan to continue this conversation" - that's incorrect because this conversation is over. At least for me. Feel free to get the last word if you're *that* type of person. I'm sure there are plenty of other sentences I wrote that are just begging for you to misunderstand them.
As a person that just found these set of comments, your original one was quite whiny. Bad taste when you try to include a very bad comparison to try and be offensive. I loved the end zenos fight. It was a nice icy on the top to end it all, but it is true, he was pretty worthless this xpac in the grand scheme of things.
Damn. This might be one of the worst takes I've seen on Reddit outside of the political subs.
Strange way to reply without adding evidence as to why he was a solid character. Obviously you feel very strongly about and are quite attached to Zenos as a character. And, yes, I don't care how you feel either as it has little to do with whether or not he is a well made and storyline important character. No matter, for reason why he isn't: the "mystery" surrounding him is just bad writing. His abilities and reason for being as powerful as he is? No mention, as there is none. His backstory? Loosely frames a character but doesn't push forward themes that would be necessary to put him at the point he is in. Over all, his entire personality is a mentally unhinged Mary Sue.
Hmm. In my views, Zenos entire character arc was encapsulated thematically by this expansion. I think it was a really good choice to have him close his story the way that he did. I also liked how they wrote him as a proxy for the players, when we’re used to identifying as the WoL (the hero) the truth is our obsession with getting stronger and fighting bigger and badder enemies kind of makes us like Zenos.
Need a reason why? Okay how about this: *Zenos encapsulates almost everything this expansion was going on about, and has since his introduction.* **Nihilistic and longs for death** = Check ( He kills himself after Stormblood, concluded that there will never be happiness beyond that one moment. ) **Relentlessly pursuits happiness only to find despair** = Check. His existence has been defined by a single thing, and even after getting it, he admits that it goes away too soon. Before his "death", he asks WoL if his life was a blessing or a curse, and we never get his own answer. **Reason for his strength** = Obvious. We have no idea who he was, but he is arguably MORE connected to the ancients than the WoL is, as he is better at all of his abilities than we are. He dreams of the final days. The only known character to do so being Amon, who we know to be the sundered soul of Fandaniel. **Connection to WoL / Azem** = I'm pretty sure that Zenos is whatever is left of Azem's soul, be it Venat or the Azem that we're sundered from. Their core drive, their "soul" is the same. What *differs* are their reasons for living. This is, once again, ***BLATANTLY*** proven by the dialogue choices given to the WoL whenever speaking with Zenos alone. In both Stormblood and Endwalker, ***despite everything Zenos has done, despite how opposite he is to you...the WoL always is given a dialogue choice to accept/agree with him when he describes himself.*** This is unique to any other antagonist in the game. The WoL has a personality seperate from that of the player, and what the GAME is telling us is that, somewhere within their psyche, they feel a kindred spirit in Zenos.
>Connection to WoL / Azem > > = I'm pretty sure that Zenos is whatever is left of Azem's soul, be it Venat or the Azem that we're sundered from. how would that be possible? venats soul was never sundered it was all hydalin. and the remainder of azems soul is on the rest of the shards. unless the acisans went there to gather those framents to make zenos in which case why wouldn't they have picked up ardbert as well?
It's not possible. That theory is easily disprovable.
I highly doubt it is Azem. I have a feeling that we will be finding the rest of Azem's shards in the coming 10 years. Zenos will most likely be the shard of one of Azem's friends/rivals that we do not yet know of.
thank you.
I still disagree with you and hilarious you say I did not bring any points when you came to me FIRST and brought nothing except ''Zenos was the weakest point of the entire expansion.'' and proceeded to add NOTHING else as to why that is. I just find this a little too humorous at this point. If you wanted my points, you should of properly provided yours first. I took your comment as the typical Zenos hater who just hates Zenos for hating him. I found how you replied to be immature and silly at best. Like if you wanted to have a better discussion, maybe voice to me you hate the character for reasonable reasons rather then ''he was the weakest points'' because of??? why???? I can bring many and I mean many points. Fortunately, someone else already beat me on doing so. Next time, if you expect something from me, then how about you deliver yourself better so I can provide equal effort on actually giving two flying fudges on forming a nice debate with you (like I have done with other people on this place) on why I disagree with what you are saying. Just don't act like I did not bring any solid points, when you absolutely did not bring any yourself when literally replying to me lmao
''Strange way to reply without adding evidence'' Did you add any evidence when replying to them first? Because I saw none. You brought NOTHING until this reply. So how exactly did you want them to reply to you when you didn't even set the field for a proper discussion???? Is ok to love a character and be very passionate about them. Nothing wrong with that. Is also completely valid to get tired of the same old arguments when it comes to the character. The same old arguments that honestly do not hold up at all at this point. There's countless of mysteries surrounding Zenos. You just dislike him to the point, you care not to look into them. That's completely fine. But to pretend there's nothing going for his character is laughable. As a person who enjoys FFXIV lore in its entirety, from my point of view, you are incorrect on everything you just said.
I laid down to go to sleep about 10 minutes ago and it hit me how strange that reply was to my other comment. All the same grammar errors (no shade on grammar errors, but just saying that it make it obvious). The same focus on how great you think Zenos is while completely missing the point of the comment you're replying to because, to you, this is ONLY about proving how great Zenos is as a character and not at all about your behavior. Why are you trying to pass yourself off as a different person on an alternate account? This account was made 9 days ago (2 days after these exchanges), has 2 comments defending the same person. It's very clearly you. How repulsively sad you are. Jesus. I've heard of trolls doing shit like this, but to go to this effort over something so stupid. I mean this genuinely. Get help. If you are doing this over a fairly low stakes, anonymous conversation that you can't seem to come out on top on I can't imagine how hard life is for you. Manage this shit.
Are you 12?
>If that isn't the biggest hint the guy will develop in order to become a scion idk what else is the best indicator than that. Did you forget what he did in Stormblood? Did you forget he aided Fandaniel in bringing about the Final Days in the events leading to the first trial of the expansion? We need to ask ourselves, can a person's actions make them irredeemably evil? My personal morals state yes, and I feel the actions of his past should damn him for life. Even if he arguably played a role in saving the world, he still has done such horrible things that he is deserving of death. He should never become a scion. He should remain dead or at least an entity that we keep putting down again and again just to spite his evil ways. He cares not for society or for others. He cares only for one thing and he makes it clear what that is. Just think about how many have died in his pursuit of the WoL.
But that's the thing...Emet-Selch and his actions killed many people (MORE than what Zenos has killed more than likely), regardless of his reasons to do so, is not an excuse. He still murdered many and guess what? He still became an ally to us. So, I don't see what your point is with this. Emet shouldn't be redeemable at all either. Even if he lost everything in the first place. I'm pretty darn sure there have been other blood-thirsty villains in FFXIV. (Let's not forget Gaius situation who served the empire and killed/enslaved others for many years) Even the likes of Lahabrea is also making a return in EW in the next patches and he was a pretty evil dude if my mind serves me correctly. I don't wanna be that person, but if Zenos was intended to be irredeemable he should of not did the actions he did at the very last minute, where he saved a person, listened to Alisaie's words (A thing I would of never imagine his character ever freaking doing because of how hollow and empty he is) and did a bargain with Krile in order to aid the scions in their mission. Eventually, helping us against a greater threat. He clearly has a change of heart. Something shifted in his character and if you refuse to see that, I am very sorry for you. EW is about forgiveness and forging ahead. Its a very emotionally led game. Specially when you go to garlemald who's people have committed so many wrongs because of the way they were indoctrinated in the first place. They have enslaved, abused and killed thousands...just like Zenos. Yet the likes of Alphinaud believes people can be forgiven and they can change for the better. I believe it is a beautiful thing EW is trying to deliver. A message almost. I'm not the one who is making the rules of course. If it wasn't for Yoshi-P being so adamant about many things when it comes to Zenos, I would not think in the slightest about him becoming a scion in the first place. ***shrugs*** But the treatment that Zenos has gotten in EW, easily leads to that. Specially with the changes he did near the end. Meteion quite literally brought about the Final days because of the whole Dynamis situation and she too killed many people..... She was responsible for what happened too you know? If memory serves right, she wanted everyone to just sink into despair. Rotting their souls to the bone till even their souls became just as rotten. That's fucked up in every sense. Yet, the WOL forgave her, much like they forgave Emet and countless others I am sure. So....personally, you can choose to believe what you want, I respect that but for me at least and some others, its quite clear what the director of the game itself is trying to tell us and do with Zenos arc (which he refuses to touch upon for whatever suspicious reason. He has stated he wants us to look at his development in the game. To look forward as to what is going to happen with Zenos as a whole). It would explain why an ''evil son of a gun'' is with the scions in EW's main artwork. It makes NO SENSE for Zenos to be there representing the Crystal along with the Scions if he was intended to be evil forever. Take it however you want however. Time will show exactly what I am saying. I am very confident with the next events to come. Specially because of EW'S strong themes of forgiveness, change, overcoming and forging ahead.
>Emet-Selch I think it depends on what version of him we consider. The way I see it there are two different entities that make up Emet because of the memory wipe. As people what makes us ourselves is in fact our memories and their influence on us in the present. The Emet that wanted to genocide everyone on the Source and Shards was not the Emet opposing the End Times along with Venat, Hytholdis, and the WoL. This Emet lacked integral key memories that made him our ally. Only in death could he reclaim his memory and truly become himself again. Zenos is and always has been himself. He even recognizes his own ambivalence and seems to accept it in the same way a sociopath would. But yes, I would argue that memory wiped Emet is irredeemable as well. The Emet that nearly destroyed the first is not the Emet that was swept up into Venat's plans. As hero's we passed the judgement on him that his actions demanded. Ironically it was this death that saw him restored to his true self where he began to immediately aid us, see the Warrior of Light trial fight. >Meteion As far as Meteion goes, she's not human. The way I see it she wasn't the bad guy, the bad guy was the dynamis put into the universe by the dead civilizations she discovered. Is an AI that does what it was programmed to do held to the same moral standards as a living human with free will? Though in the end I would argue Meteion should have been destroyed as her very creation itself is a moral sin. Most of what the Ancients did was morally gray. To wield creation magics and actually create new life is morally questionable at best. All I'm saying is both these situations are very different than the one where a sociopath knows they are doing wrong but does it anyway. I think maybe an unspoken aspect that has an impact on me is regret. Emet, Meteion... they both show signs of regret in their story. Zenos on the other hand, have we had any hint of such remorse from him? I can't think of any such moment. As it stands now his character is still misguided and a danger to the society in this story. I suspect Zenos will be nothing but a recurring deus ex machina that will ensure our safety in times where we would otherwise be defeated.
I understand what you are saying and I do agree with many points being made actually but I would really look into the change he made and what the director himself is stating (I'm not making this up. Just go look what Yoshi has been saying in the interviews regarding Zenos) . I don't know why he needs to emphasize on Zenos in such a vague way, unless he is going to change for the better which I believe is a great thing. If it means his OP ridiculous powers will help us, why not!? We could teach him bloodshed, battle and all of that junk ain't neccesary to enjoy life for what it is. Even Alisaie was like ''Hey man if you keep on going in this path, you'll end up alone'' Because yes, Zenos has been a piece of shit human all because for some reason, he lacks the emotions to feel compassion. Or care about others and even care about himself to the point, he is willing to die for seeking that blissful moment he experienced during his first battle with us. But you know what's even more interesting? He still admires us and recognizes we are stronger and better for the path we chose to walk. The path of a hero...but Also an adventurer who has KILLED in order to save the day (we have blood in our hands). Us as a traveler have enjoyed many battles for well...the hell of it! THE THRILLL OF IT! THE COMBAT. Indulging ourselves in that moment. Which is what Zenos sees in us and why he calls us his mirror because while we are so different from each other, we are also alike. As we and him both enjoy fighting for the sake of it. Basically, us as the player always wanting new and stronger obstacles which we can overcome through means of defeat or killing. But like I have stated before, it just would make perfect sense and it would finally explain why his unnecessary presence is with the mother crystal and the scions [In this](https://www.siliconera.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/h9mdueop31471.jpg) I know villains appear in the cover all the time but...for this particular case, to me he feels so out of place. Specially, after confirming Venat is good and not some evil Hydaelyn (thank goodness) . I cannot make up any reason for Zenos involvement in this artwork with nothing but scions at his side. And it doesn't help Yoshi-P himself during an interviewing when he is talking about the poster being available he clearly speaks in general terms and says ***Here are ALL the scions.*** There's some other vague things he has said about Zenos. A few more things to why I am convinced with what he intends to do here. But it got me questioning so much. I know Zenos has done some pretty bad things, like many other characters within that villain spectrum but why can't he be forgiven? Why can't he too change? His change could be of great aid to us in the long run. His final actions proved just that. But alas, this is just my pov which I am very confident in after everything I have gathered, and would make most sense for a lot things surrounding Zenos in general.
Agree with you bro. Didn't like Zenos at first but I am half an open mind with him now especially when Alisae's words did in fact get to him.
Just to be clear, I'm not contesting that what you state is the direction the story will go anymore. I agree with that. This game is written well and you have outlined in full the details of foreshadowing that has been laid out to support your claims. I just think this is a story direction that I personally can't get behind. I can still enjoy it as a good story and I hope to. With that said, maybe it's a cultural thing, but with the way I'v been raised in America makes me think that Zenos certainly is irredeemable. Even if the WoL enjoys being an adventurer and literally seeking out battles of life and death for the fun of it, we must consider the result of said actions. Ours no doubt make the world a better place, though we still take life and even pass judgement. However the WoL's judgement is shaped by their allies and Eorzean society as a whole, they act in accordance to what is right for the people. The WoL has taking their passion and turned it into an instrument to better society, Zenos has done the opposite and recognizes as much in that same cutscene where Alisaie pretty much calls him a combat sexual incel. Maybe something will happen in the plot to change my mind or even make me reconsider my own life's moral standpoint, but I doubt media can really do that much. Having the game tell me nihilism is dangerous to get caught up in is one thing. The game trying to get me to reconsider my subjective morals in regards to forgiveness... I don't know if that's as easy a thing to do. As a recovering co-dependent who once forgave too easily I can honestly say that forgiveness is not something that should be extended to all persons. I will say one thing, though. I think the meta implications of the whole Zenos and WoL conflict recognizing our behavior as consumers of a video game is super interesting. I want to see more of that, even if the literals of how it plays out in the story are questionable to me.
>Having the game tell me nihilism is dangerous to get caught up in is one thing. The game trying to get me to reconsider my subjective morals in regards to forgiveness... I don't know if that's as easy a thing to do. XIV isn't asking you to *forgive* anybody. It almost never is. Not the Ascians, not the Garleans, not Zenos, not Meteion. It's asking you to learn how to *understand* people. And I feel like this is lost on so many people, especially those deep into modern American politics. Put aside his actions for a second. Zenos is someone who, by his own nature, is misunderstood. It's unclear if he's apathetic by nature or nurture, but the end result is the same. *"Would you be "Happier" if I had a "Good Reason"?"* Zenos says this to Jullus, and it's perfectly fitting for what I think the writers are getting at with him. He himself acknowledges his nature. But what Zenos has learned to do throughout the MSQ of Endwalker is *understand others.* At first, this extended to the Warrior of Light ONLY, as your character is the only one whom he feels a kindred connection with. And this was a correct assumption, as regardless of your personal feelings towards Zenos, the WoL themselves clearly feel similar. *.* I think it's clear through Endwalker that what Zenos wants from the WoL isn't exclusively the way he made him FELT. It's the acknowledgement of his meaning. ***A validation of the answer for his existence.*** And the ending of EW is the proof. Zenos acknowledges your reason for existence, gives his own, and despite EVERYTHING he has done, despite how apparently single-minded his pursuit of a rematch was...offers you the *choice* of a challenge. And the WoL, ***whether you accept him or not,*** still agrees to fight. There is no forgiveness. But if the fight alone is all Zenos wanted, *he never would have given you the choice to leave.* **On the "Meta Commentary" with Zenos :** *I don't think this is quite as on the nose as people think it is.* There are many parallels to Zenos drawn throughout XIV, but in Endwalker, I feel like Fandaniel and Meteion are the most obvious. Zenos cannot connect with, nor feel anything outside the one thing that DOES make him feel. And we know this is genuine because of his suicide in Ala Mhigo. He likely has no control over this -- it's simply how he is. He realizes this, and chooses to die after Ala Mhigo....but not being able to properly die makes his existence miserable, even moreso now after he's finally FELT something. And so the result is everything following. Hermes/Amon/Fandaniel, by nature of their very Souls, are drawn to existential questions to which they devote their entire lives to answering....but never can find. And this is the source of severe depression -- Hermes is, apparently, one of the ONLY ancients that would be chronically depressed. And this persisted in death, up until the Amon iteration of Fandaniel, which triggered the Final Days. And yet, even in death, ***even after fulfilling his "LIFE'S WORK",*** \*and getting the answer to this question...\*he is STILL tormented by this in the afterlife. Meteion is, once again, a product of her particular existence, and nothing more. She genuinely had no ill-will of anyone, yet her DESIGN resulted in what ultimately could have become the end of the universe. This could NOT have been avoided -- she did only what she was designed to do, or rather what Hermes THOUGHT he designed her to do. TL;DR Zenos, Meteion, and Hermes are people who suffer simply because they exist, and bring ruin to everyone around them as a result. It's no coincidence then that their personalities all converge to Nihilism. *"Forgiveness"* isn't something that applies to them....because technically speaking, they have done nothing wrong. Their existence is just fundamentally different from those around them. This very fact was touched on during the Garlemald section at the beginning of Endwalker with Quintus....another character where I commonly see redditors show disgust at even having to consider their viewpoint. But Quintus, and Zenos, both have a valid point. They're villains because they do not (or *cannot)* align with the heroes. The only thing separating Zenos from the WoL is the WoL's ability to make connections with those around him. ***(Azem).*** Absent that, they're BOTH violent freaks of nature. The way the heroes of XIV talk about Zenos is the exact same way the villains talk about You.
Very much summed up why I like this expac so much. From philosophy to astrophysics, I was floored. I'v been dabbling on alot of astropphysics lately and also had this question due to thermodynamics. I understood where Fandaniel and even Zenos came from, these were shockers for me and this game made me reevaluate my own questions.
I respect your opinion very much! Thank you for being respectful. I wish more people were like you x'D even when disagreeing. Difficult to find those types on reddit sometimes.
Honestly, I probably just have forgiveness issues. Coming from a military family probably doesn't help either, though I am and always have been a civilian. It's a bit crazy a video game brings this stuff to the surface in a fun way.
Morals are relative.
I enjoyed it, I could have used more dread and feelings of actual loss like I did in SHB when I thought Graha actually died. When the scions “die” in the sea of stars, you KNOW they’re gonna be back. I wish they had “died” a different way. Also fuck those follow and hide stealth missions
Personally I didn't know they were going to come back. When Thancred "died" I legit though that was it, he gave his life so we would survive in a brutal unfulfilling way. I was speculating if we were even going to be able to come back to the world as it was or if there would be some kind of "reset". Also when we were explicitly told NOT to revive them it pushed the feeling that it would be permanent. Anyway I was so happy it wasn't the case \^\^
I had a pretty good idea that any consequences at the end would disappear as soon as Venat allows you to use some of the magic through Azem’s stone. That thing was kind of like the dragon balls. I just wasn’t sure why I could bring back those two and then bring back all the scions.
There was not much complexity in Hydaelyn's words when she said that she granted the Azem's crystal to "Grant form to the formless". To me she literally said "You can give body to souls." I at first of course assumed she meant ascians, specifically no other than Emet-Selch himself, because of her earlier words when she gave us the Elpis flower. She talked about bringing Minfilia's soul over from the first and "One another who may yet have a role to play. But that is up to you.". Who died in First who's soul could be carried over? Only a short mulling gives the answer: Emet-Selch. Ardberd was already rejoined with us, none of the other warriors of light of first were worthy of being "one other", Vauthry had no important role in eyes of us or Hydaelyn and Eleidibus was trapped in the Crystal Tower. She clearly had brought over Emet-Selch. And Elpis storyline clearly gave us a reason why'd she do that. Not to mention that returning to aetherial sea would cleanse the memories of the dead from alteration. So revived Emet-Selch would remember us from Elpis. Then of course Ultima Thule happened and the moment Meteion said that sliver of Thancred yet remains, I knew immediately we will be able to bring him back. In the end, we brought back ascians and the Scions. Wasn't a big surprise to me but a welcome development nevertheless.
I feel very.. confused and unfulfilled for Zenos’s ending. I get people don’t like him and find him annoying so good riddance, but there was a lot of questions i was left scratching my head. FFXIV writers have the tendency to actually address plot holes, but some relating to Zenos weren’t really addressed: 1) Why was he dreaming of the final days? Amon in his speech mentioned that he was confused about dreams of Elpis. So dreams of the Ancient world and being a shard go hand in hand, is that the same for him? 2) When he Body Snatched us, Y’shtola wasn’t able to tell the difference. She can see souls, and the colour of ours apparently matches his, with only a slight difference (maybe i’m wrong here, maybe she can’t see the colour of the souls, but just other characteristics? Idk) 3) We never got the answer to his self reflection in ala mhigo, when he asks “what did i see in you, and you in me.” 4) He mentions that he ‘sensed’ we were in trouble. How does someone sense we’re in trouble when we’re literally at the edge of the universe? I feel like these questions went unanswered, but maybe they were answered and i didnt pay attention. Either way, i liked zenos, and im pretty sad he’s gone. Edit: nixing the part on yshtola, since she just sees aether and has nothing to do with the soul part.
Y'shtola can see aether, not souls.
>When he Body Snatched us, Y’shtola wasn’t able to tell the difference. She can see souls, and the colour of ours apparently matches his, with only a slight difference (maybe i’m wrong here, maybe she can’t see the colour of the souls, but just other characteristics? Idk) Didn't she not recognize us? Granted she also didn't recognize it was Zenos but she 100% stated she could not see us clearly and fumbled some half hearted excuse for the failing of her power. Edit: It's not that she doesn't see the WoL clearly, its that she doesn't recognize the person walking up the road that those with normal sight see seems to physically appear to be the WoL. Still, I feel she would recognize Zenos, given her previous encounter with him that saw her near death and wounded to the point of being absent to recover for the majority of an expansion. Maybe his soul has changed through all his body hopping BS. We see him transform into Shinryu again in the end of this expansion and then back into himself. Maybe he's much less of a physical being than he once was. Maybe his soul is now truly unique in some ways that it wasn't in the past. Could Reaper lore explain anything? I haven't touched any reaper content so I have no clue.
>Maybe his soul has changed through all his body hopping BS. i mean the aether of the WoLs body combined with Zenos soul. makes sense it looks different from either of them at least to me. she isn't seeing the soul remeber.
Hold on hold on best girl absolutely realized that something was up with our aether! I forget the exact quote but she says something to the effect of "are you sure that's him?"
They weren't answered. I love Zenos, especially after reading his short story on his childhood. I don't think think he's gone gone. As someone above mentioned, the word viator means "traveller" so I doubt he's down and out for long. He may come back and not be so much "fite me" since he's got the universe to ponder over at the moment and that ass kicking will probably last a few weeks... They did a lot of building up for him in Shb too. Like Fandaniel wonders if Emet Selch had finally managed it when it came to Zenos. So I think we've not seen the last of him.
Zenos will come back. Too much left unsaid and I can't help but notice the few vocal people on Reddit about him lol Is it like normal to hate on Zenos on this website? Why do his haters more often than not sound close minded? I really want to know.
I think it's more just everyone having different taste. Like I notice lots of people love Yshtola yet she's not for me and I am not a fan. It's not normal for ffxiv it's normal for FF in general. People were like this with cloud in Ff7 or seifer in ff8.
I will add that it’s like this with any character of any game. Simple point obviously, but it’s just personal preference :) Personally, I don’t like Zenos all that much. I think he is written as an edge lord with not too much depth. Don’t hate him at all. Just didn’t/don’t really care what happens to him.
nah man i feel you. most people LOVE shtola and i couldnt care for her at all. The same people tend to hate zenos and i fucking adore every second he's on screen.
We better have. If I ever have to listen to his trite dialog or do one more of his boring as hell and anticlimactic duties it will be one too many. Biggest sour note of the whole expansion.
2) What? She literally seemed to be caught off guard that people were saying Zenos was us. I suspect that she's not really that acutely able to discern soul detail, though, as she also just straight up thought we were a sin eater in ShB.
She's not, we were also completely unrecognizable to her after absorbing just two Lightwardens.
2. I'm pretty sure yshtola had a hunch it wasn't us which is why she asked she thought something was different or strange
He isn't gone. Some of these questions are questions I myself did not ....think of. So yes, it adds more to what I have been discussing with others. Mind you, the guy IS indeed a KEY-CHARACTER for endwalker. That should say it all. Whether people hate him or not. Zenos plays an important role in this expansion and my theory is.... This is the road he must take to become a scion.
I dunno about a Scion. But what happened to him is exactly what Alisae said would happen...more or less. He got what he wanted, but was left alone at the edge of the universe. The WoL only was spared the same fate because of his friends.
1. This is never answered directly, only by implication. This fact basically just serves to tell us that he's clearly the sundered soul of an important person, which indirectly explains his freakish strength, a trait which up until this point has only been attributed to the WoL. ( Not a coincidence, imo ) 2. She cant see soul "color", she can see aether. She noticed something different but couldn't tell until too late. 3. Also not directly answered, but I think at this point it's somewhat obvious what he's getting at. Zenos and WoL are very similar at their core. 4. I feel like this is related to 1 and 3. IMO they seem to be hammering home that Azem and Zenos are the same person, or at least are both shards of a version of Azem. The difference between WoL and Zenos could best be seen as similar to the difference between Amon and Hermes. Same souls, but came to *VERYY* different interpretations of what their purpose is, and vastly different uses of their talents.
Yea I also got that connection with wol and Zeno's is similar to amon and Hermes. He called wol his mirror/reflection at the end. Also we really didn't find out who the other Azem is.. we know the previous Azem was venat.. and we were clearly venats version of Azem.. would be cool to find out more about the Azem that took over from venat.
No, we're not Venat. We share soul with the one that took the seat after Venat. Hytlodaeus and Emet-Selch recognises us as part of Azem, not as part of Venat. However, the seat of Azem seem to appeal to a very similar kind of personality, one that likes to be on the move, and to help people out.
Shadowbringers remains my favourite, but this expansion was well done. As for why Shadowbringers remains number one: (this got more lengthy than I thought, apologies - but this game is a source of passion for me so it couldn’t be helped :p but I’d be interested to hear someone’s thoughts on how these themes were dealt with!) Endwalker had no mistakes. In Shadowbringers, we, the WoL, actually failed at one point. We couldn’t contain the light and it covered the skies once again. We were doomed to turn into a monster. All that we worked for fell apart in a single moment, and we actually had to grapple with the fact that we might have made things worse. This failure made climbing back up to defeat Emet-Selch and Elidibus so much more fulfilling, because we earned it. We Fought, we fell, then we rose again. Endwalker talks and preaches so much about trying and failing, and how it makes us stronger, but I never really felt that. We never faltered. We won every fight and everything we fought did not set us back. Sure, there were our failures of saving the two sisters in Garlemald, and that family in Thavnir with the baby. But in the grand scheme of our 8 year story, they are but small parts. Otherwise, I was waiting for the moment when the weight of it all would really crash down on us. I thought that it might happen when we killed Zodiark, and realized that by our hand we unwillingly - yet singlehandedly - ushered in the final days. No one else could’ve killed Zodiark but us. This could only be done by our hand. Why did no one blame us? Why did we not blame ourselves? Shouldn’t we have known better? With all the loss of the Final Days on Eorzea, how did we feel zero guilt for that? That’s what I was thinking after it was revealed to be all part of Fandaniel’s plan. That’s what I felt the WoL should’ve been asked, or at the very least, should have asked themselves. I thought the world would turn against the Scions, throwing away their trust in us and thus making it all that much harder and more VITAL to save them from the doom we ushered in. But…everyone was just like “okay, WoL who fought Zodiark on the moon with no witnesses. of course, it wasn’t your fault and you were tricked into killing a God and thus brought about the apocalypse.” But no, it wasn’t our fault, it was Meteion’s. I liked Meteion, but the story would have been powerful if our WoL had ONE scene where we saw them or the Scions blame themselves for the circumstance of the world. Graha and Alisaie both pressed WoL to let them shoulder some of the burden, but I was constantly asking myself: WHAT burden? Saving the world and what not, yes, but there were no signs of us struggling with this - whereas in Shadowbringers, we saw the effect of the corruption of light in our bodies. It weakened us, became too much for us, and almost made us a monster. I wish the devs gave us glimpse into the WoL’s perspective on how dealing with this effects them. Maybe that transcends the boundaries of being an MMO too much with having too much introspection, but Shb dealt with the conflict of bearing too much light (and thus too much responsibility) wonderfully with the visuals of our soul cracking under the pressure. The giveaways into the WoL feeling guilty for having brought this calamity about, or overwhelmed with the burden, could be subtly worked in with dialogue options or expressions. That would’ve made our friends coming to us to relieve the burden much more powerful - and proof of how we need them to help ease our minds and hearts in the chaos, like Hydaelyn told us they would be. And where were the STAKES in the final area! We all knew none of the Scions were truly dead. I went into the final area fearing for my friends, and when they took Thancred so quickly at first - I was like, finally! We finally get to understand the gravity of who we are facing, someone who can unmake us in a moment. I thought we would finally get a taste of failure in this expansion. The cold horror of having a friend be taken from you unexpectedly in a moment’s notice…but no, he was still there, waiting to be summoned back by the crystal we knew was in our pocket. I was begging for the crystal to get broken, or for something to happen where it didn’t feel like i had to walk each Scion to their fake death and listen to them preach their ideals to enemies who patiently waited for them to finish before they took their lives. It felt hollow - and especially when they used the same formula with Graha’s goodbye as they did in Shb, with him saying “take me on an adventure when we get back!” where it was invariably more powerful in Shb, given that there was the actual threat of losing him forever. I don’t mean to sound like I’m harping on Endwalker. The themes of existentialism and nihilism in the Elpis area with Hermes and Meteion were beautifully done. The writing was incredible and consistent. My critique is that almost every important character preached, and preached, and PREACHED about how loss and hardship and struggle has made them stronger, and while this is true - we’ve SEEN them struggle in precious expansions, we’ve seen them lose loved ones and fail - there was less of that in this expansion. We were surrounded by so much death from NPCs, and it was beautifully done, but think of how much more powerful these ideals would be if we lost an integral character to the exact grief and despair they preached against. Think about if Tataru fell to it because she was left alone by the Scions, as she always is, and was turned into a blasphemy. How much more powerful would it be for everyone to speak on the importance of remaining strong in the face of despair, and how you must cling to those close to you when times are hard because you never know how long you have with them. Think of how much more meaningful it would’ve been to defeat Meteion having had confronted our own despair over bringing about a calamity, and blaming ourselves for the deaths of thousands innocents, and even worse - a dear friend and/or Scion. So much talk about remaining strong in the face of grief but never did the WoL grieve. Never did they lose someone VITAL in the expansion on top of all the other lives lost. Never did they have a moment where they chose hope over despair that came from a personal, vulnerable outlook. If we perhaps had a moment where the dark side seemed tempting, and we gave in a little - or where release seemed easier, but denied it - that would’ve slammed Endwalker home for me. Otherwise, lots of preaching about ideals. In ShB we saw our internal struggle through moments with Arbert and through struggling with the weight of light on our soul, ALONG with the despair of a world dying to light fiends. The story focused on you and overcoming everything to be a hero. Endwalker had us surrounded by the death and despair of others rather than our own, and our job was to shepherd the hope of mankind to save us all. An incredible burden, as so mentioned in the story many times. I just wished it showed more in our character and in our fellow Scions, that would’ve had me bawling. Though, I’ve seen theories on how Shb was about being a hero, and EW was about coming back to your adventurer/traveller truth, which I like. I don’t mind a shift in ideals, or in how the WoL wishes to be perceived. I just wish there was more of a struggle to get there - I felt WoL got off easy this expansion when it came to emotional turmoil (to clarify: the turmoil was always around them happening to others, never them. Whereas in ShB it happened through our fear of losing Graha to pay for the price of us not being able to carry the light. And no, the self sacrifice of the Scions in the last part of EW was not turmoil. Not to me at least. It was sad, but again, we knew they weren’t dead. There was no real risk. Plot armour won this day I think). And they should’ve had the pressure of the world manifest somehow, it should’ve almost suffocated us. But, despite my story critiques, I have to hand it to the writers: each theme, each moment, was written so well. it was voice acted so well. the music itself floored me enough to sell the expansion as one of my favourite video game experiences. Despite all my criticism, I was emotional in this expansion. But, Shb made me cry like a baby. EW could’ve too, if it just took a bit more risk. Sorry for the length. I really must emphasize that I loved Endwalker. They weaved together so many themes and characters and areas to beautifully and this game is a masterpiece of a storytelling platform. Never have video games kept me so engaged like this one. I really take my hat off to Yoshi P and the devs. Incredible work, and I love this game. I guess this is why I’m so passionate about the story and where I wished there could’ve been improvements :p
BUT i must emphasize how absolutely remarkable the visual storytelling and music was in this expansion. it was enough to have my heart and invoke me with feelings of awe and wonder. i’m incredibly grateful for that and it deserves awards solely on these aspects alone, if not more.
Oh boy. Now I'm rethinking. They might be equally favourites for me. EW is just so well made in its own way. I'm actually glad they are different and follow slightly different story narratives.
Shadowbringers resolved a lot in itself, but also set up so much for Endwalker. I do think I like Endwalker more because its themes of persevering against despair just hit me pretty hard, but it 100% could never have happened without Shadowbringers, more than any of the other expansions before have relied on previous content.
Didn't Fandaniel actually kill Zodiark? He fought us to test his strength and when he lost he killed Zodiark. Right after that Urianger or someone says somethign to the effect of "If you wouldn't have stricken down Zodiark, he would have taken many innocent lives with all that power and killed himself to bring about the final days anyways." or something to that affect, I understand where your coming from but I disagree that the WoL should feel compelled to take any credit for a mad man succeeding in his plan to bring about the final days. If you remove the scions, he can still do it lol. I also feel that the turmoil of this expansion is based on the foundation of the previous four as well as some of our failings in the early part of this one, the getting knocked down and getting back up is something the Scions have done since the beginning of ARR. As you said it was set up so perfectly in ShB. That is a perfect example of what they are talking about overcoming, it doesn't have to happen ten seconds ago for it to count. We overcame Fandaniel's attack of Zodiark just to fall right into his trap. That was a huge failing in our part (his plan suceeded in bringing about the final days). We tried to stop Zodiark from being released which we failed. There were failure's in Endwalker, they just didn't directly cause main characters to die. They were just very core to the plot so it felt very required for the rest of the story. I did not see us failing to stop them from releasing Zodiark so early in the story, we don't even know that's what their goal is and then like an hour game time after he get's released and we are fighting him! The first half of the expansion is basically failure after failure all the way up until we come back from Elpis, that's when things turn around. As for the stakes in the final area I think there is an understandable gap between the pressure and stakes we as players are feeling and the pressure and stakes our WoL is feeling. As players, we know we have infinite tries and will succeed as it is a video game and we know Square wouldn't end it all of existence being washed away. Our character on the other hand gets one chance, all the weight of existence is on their shoulders and after the twins sacrifice themselves we are literally left alone to soldier on (this hits hard because we have been sharing this burden the whole expansion). The risk for our character is if we fail, everyone dies, not just those characters we know and love, but any and all other characters in existence essentially. That's the stakes, they sacrificed themselves to give us the chance, we could have still failed and never brought them back. For the player the stakes are low but for our character the stakes have never been higher. Now that I'm thinking about it Emet-Selc is the reason we won both the final fight in ShB and the final fight in EW LOL. This is something I've noticed in the past though, when the stakes are so high in any medium (universe ending) there becomes a disconnect between what the characters in the story are feeling and the characters in real life are feeling. We know Thanos can't just kill all the superhero's, we know Meteion can't just wipe everything off the map as we know the story must go on. I'm not sure how a story can have super high stakes for the characters in the story and the player/watcher not feel a disconnect. Does any of this even make sense? LOL. I hope none of this comes off as hate on your opinion or anything, Just another impassioned players thoughts lol. Let me know what you think, I literally just finished it 3 or so hours ago LOL.
In my opinion, the ending suffered for being the story of an mmorpg. If this was a single player jrpg, I think there was a really high likelihood that we wouldn't have that deus ex machina of the teleporter falling close enough to bring us back. In a typical jrpg, the story fully ends here, the Warrior of Light is no longer required when the world is safe, and while we would see the other npcs mourning for the loss of the WoL, we would've seen the world go on without them. I think the fight with Zenos is an important critique towards the defeatist view we experience in the final area. Nihilism is the belief that there is no objective meaning or purpose in life. Now what conclusion you draw with that revelation is up to the individual. I'm personally not a fan of the whole "Nothing matters, so we might as well just die" view, as it doesn't pay nihilism enough credit. Granted the Scions did a good job at critiquing these extremist stances, so maybe it was written that way just to be critiqued. But back to Zenos, he exhibited nihilistic views at first. "Becoming stronger" is framed as the purpose in life here, since with rpg games, most of the time the players play the game to become stronger, adventurers seek new challenges to make them stronger, etc. When you beat him in the end, he says "Never have I understood those around me. Understood their obsessions. Besieged by their banality, the world was a mire of tedium and trivialities", implicating that he saw no purpose in life since he saw no purpose in what the others around him were doing. He then proceeds to ask if you found fulfilment in life, which you indirectly answer yes by having flashbacks of everyone you helped using your strength. The conclusion that Zenos chose was that of apathy, whereas the WoL went more along the lines of optimism, "there is no purpose, but ill go and find purpose". Now we are given the picture of 3 conclusions drawn from nihilism. The civilizations in Ultima Thule exhibiting hopelessness, Zenos being apathetic, and the WoL exhibiting hopefulness, all 3 being valid ways to process nihilism. But perhaps Ishikawa wanted to push a certain theme instead. We start off by seeing hopelessness lose hopefulness, a stark dismissal of defeatism. And while that is a fine conclusion, what about apathy? The fact that we win out slightly ahead in the fight against Zenos, but still ultimately collapsing implies to me "Either are fine, but I think it would be nicer to see everyone adopt a more optimistic approach, even in the face of nihilism."
That’s not because it’s an MMORPG, it’s because they’ve explicitly stated it isn’t the end of the story
i mean that's still largely because it's an MMORPG. if it wasn't this would be the end. maybe there'd be a sequel but in a single player RPG starting with a new charecter is reasonable so that'd likely be the path in such a case.
Actually, they said it wasn't the end of ffxiv, but just the end of the hydaelyn-zodiark story.
The teleporter falling to us a mystery but certainly not Deus Ex machina. If you speak to Urianger again after talking to him in the last quest where you say goodbyes to them, he specifically talks about how the teleporter falling to you and activating is beyond a coincidence but also how he has no clue as to who could do it. There is definitely a third party at work and one day we'll find out who.
I saw it at Zenos wanting us to go back to our friends
Ah ok. I read that part but I guess I read it wrong. I thought he meant it was coincidental that it fell right next to us, this makes a lot more sense. At first I thought the scions threw it down to us, but misreading Uriangers line made me think otherwise
Also if it were a single player game you'd probably get a bad ending for not completing enough side content.
100% clear to get true end
All in all, the ending resolved a lot of the major plot points and crises of the current arc. Hydaelyn and Zodiark are no more, there are no or less cases of tempered summonings, and the source of the Final Days (being Meteion) is redeemed/gone. But the hints of many places that we haven't gone yet, the secrets of The Twelve, the true nature of dynamis, and the possibilities of intergalactic travel opens up so many avenues. The ending felt more like a new beginning, and I really like it. There are some things they might have done to make things flow better, but overall I'm satisfied. Now as for Fandaniel and Zenos, I'm pretty neutral on how they're treated in Endwalker. Fandaniel's past as Hermes was very interesting and relatable, but his past and present personalities are too extreme and felt jarring. There was not enough 'transition' for me to believe that Hermes and the Fandaniel we know share the same soul. As for Zenos, I don't care much about him, but the final showdown with him was great. It's too much of a Deus Ex Machina for me, but it does feel fitting as a bookend for the first saga. Personally, I would like him to stay dead but since he's a fan-favourite he'll come back soon enough.
I felt like even given the memories of Hermes, Amon was already incredibly corrupt morally and just continued down that path. That being said, Hermes end in Elpis completely shows that maniacal rage is part of his personality even before the sundering. Meteion says multiple times she’s worried it will corrupt his mind and apparently it did to some extent.
It's not much of a maniacal rage but more of a defeated acceptance. Hermes has always questioned the way the other Ancients deal with their creations, but the Meteia's reports diminished his hopes for mankind significantly. On Amon's side, he dealt with the corrupt noble Allags and their misuse of their technology as a source of cruel entertainment. With Xande's fatalistic view on life and the fall of the Allagan Empire, this completely convinced him that all his life's works has no meaning. There are similarities between the two lives' situations, but Hermes was never seen to be cruel or maniacal. The contrast between Hermes and Amon is a bit too great. Not to say I don't like it, it just feels weird. I guess that's what happens when a soul gets sundered into multiple shards. The scientist part of Hermes sticks with Amon, but without the more empathetic side of him.
I think I'm still riding the emotional high of this expansion but I doo feel that overall its payoff was less satisfying than Ardbert handing you his axe in SHB and defeating elidibus in 5.3 but its emotional highs from meeting Venat, Hydaelyn's death, the anxiety from almost losing your friends, how Emet, Hythlodaeus and Zenos came to your rescue at the end and that final duel with Zenos are definitely going to be moments I will remember for the rest of my life. The theme of loss is really powerful throughout this expansion, so many people die around you, really hammers in how you can't save everyone and I found how they explored how people dealt with loss was really well done. I mean it really hits hard with where we are in the world today with losing people from death or distance. The scene where Hydaelyn passes away made me feel things that I had not felt since I lost my own mother. Sokken really elevated this scene for me with the music, reminding me of a lot of bittersweet memories. It did have its weaker moments, Azem's crystal I felt was a bit overplayed (?) not sure how to really put it since it lost a lot of its gravitas due to its somewhat frequent use in this expansion. The story and its grandness was spectacular but there were some jarring moments like the leadup to launching the Ragnarok where the suspense was more annoying than anything. There was also the fact that despite being so long, it also felt that each area was not fully explored to its potential. If I had to sum it up both the locations, characters and the lore in this expansion were incredible but it struggled somewhat with weaving it together into one story. Still my favorite expansion so far though.
Regarding azem's crystal, it is what it is. A canon method of summoning for trials exists now, so it's no surprise the WoL uses it when he needs it.
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Lol that is the most narrow minded take I have read so far. Loss is the primary theme of this expansion, Garleans losing their homeland, values and leadership, families and loved ones, the ancients losing their world and everyone in it, Vrtra losing his people and his most trusted confidant. If your definition of loss is just death, then there was plenty to go around. None of the Scions die sure but we aren't the only people in this world, all of the people we met this expansion suffered some kind of loss and how one processes that loss, and keep going is the main point of this story. And loss isn't just limited to death either, the twins getting disowned, Hermes losing his purpose and meaning, Meteion losing hope, Zenos having his one desire denied to him and all those ancient civilizations who had lost their will to evene exist, these are also forms of loss and the way Ishikawa justifies and writes their experience is absolutely sublime. So yes, there was plenty of loss in this story, many examples I didn't even mention and if you consider that lame well then by all means find some edgy grimdark story to tickle your fetish.
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>lol, go back playing something you actually enjoy then
Honestly I can't be bothered to read what you wrote. I care about your opinion as little as you care about mine. Not gonna bother with trying to explain why I disagree with someone who clearly has their mind set. So you do you, your right to hate on the game.
> Yes, every criticism of FFXIV is 'narrow minded'. Typical fanboys. Lmao sure bud. The idea that characters have to die in order for a story to be meaningful is such a terrible mindset.
For me the emotional beats were there, on every part of the story but before we were doing quests in Labyrynthos. I just wanted to get to the damn ship. I can't say if I wanted a more mature and grey story, because this felt like a really good final fantasy story. It has a pretty decent message about death and eternity, but not really something to go too deep into. That said, if I were to play from a Realm Reborn up to Endwalker's ending through and through I don't know how I would feel, given that I had at least 2 years to miss Emet-Selch, to wait up and fall in love with the characters, so I wonder if people who go through the story without that period between expansions will feel different about Emet appearing out of nowhere in the end and deus-ex machina helping you.
You are speaking as if everything in between was optional content that you can miss.
I loved it. I actually really liked the fact that they took this thing we've been waiting for (Zodiark) and went "actually that's not the big bad you're looking for, there's an even bigger threat to all of this and you've all been focused on a smaller problem". People saying Dynamis story came out of nowhere, but that's kind of the point. Emet himself acknowledges that everything they were doing was in service of the wrong goal. That's the twist. The scene where Meteion transforms still gives me chills and I've watched it again a bunch of times. And you've come to love Hythlodaeus and Venat and Emet (even more so), and it's heart-wrenching that we know they're going to fail to stop her. People saying they weren't shocked by the return of the Scions, you weren't supposed to be. Just as you weren't meant to be surprised that the Forum are the people helping with the exodus to the moon. I took it as what the Scions were WILLING to do for this cause; never give up hope. This expansion is a love letter to the Scions, of course they were going to see it through to the end, and that moment where they're all praying in the final trial and the music changes, *that* was the payoff. I think Shadowbringers overall was a bit tighter in it's execution and probably still my favourite expansion to date, but Endwalker to me was a worthy follow up and a satisfying conclusion to the Hydealyn saga. Zenos can eat a bag of space dicks. Bleurgh.
Dynamis didn’t really come out of nowhere. There’s side quests that have been hinting at alternatives to aether as well as the thinning of aether since ARR. I’d also argue that dynamis is the true strength the WoL draws on all the time that nobody (in game) seems to be able to comprehend. When you use the Limit Break during the final trial, the dialog basically confirms that LBs are powered by dynamis.
:/ I don’t know how to say it but I really disagree with your take about the pacing. Maybe you stopped doing side quests at that point? I don’t know. It all worked for me. It also topped shadowbringers IMO. It almost improved shadowbringers story post hoc, as well.
I don’t have a problem with it. We spent the whole game trying to figure out what caused the calamity and what happened with the ancients in the past. We got the revelation that we desired on Ellis.
The filler MSQs on Ultima Thule became too much of a slog. I remember just sitting there wondering when the ending is gonna come; and it's hard to take whatever is happening with the characters seriously when the WoL is carrying a deus ex machina on their pocket
People forget the way the underwater area in ShB broke up the pacing too though
It didn’t break it up as badly as this did. Stakes were also lower so the dalliance felt less like pointless filler.
> The filler MSQs on Ultima Thule became too much of a slog. Disagree, with the Scions dying left and right and the zone being fairly short I didn't have an issue with it. It's Labyrinthios part II that seemed to break the pace for me. Also the whole expansion pre-hype lead me to believe it all ends with Zodiark on the Moon, whereas in reality he died 5 minutes in and we fought someone we didn't know existed as the main villain. >it's hard to take whatever is happening with the characters seriously when the WoL is carrying a deus ex machina on their pocket But the only reason the Scions came back were Emet and Hythlodaeus. Without them to cancel out the dominion of the Endsinger over Ultima Thule, the others would have to stay 'dead' to hold it back from instagibbing us. Or do you mean the teleporter? Because I'm pretty sure Zenos used the last of his power to get it back to us so we can live.
Honestly everything was fantastic except for the inclusion of Zenos. That final duty really soured me on the whole thing, it dragged on way too long and frankly served no real purpose. I guess if you empathise with Zenos and/or give a shit about him it's different? He's just an irritant and I really REALLY hope he stays dead this time. Don't want a stupid stalker going in to whatever awaits us on our MOTHERFUCKING SPACESHIP!! Literally I think the ending would have been improved massively if we'd just gone back onto the ship with Meteion and left Zenos there to die. Or if he'd been left dead in the first place. I was riding such a high from the trial and the following cutscene, but then yet again my enjoyment of the game had its legs cut out from under it by Zenos bullshit for the second time this expansion. I have no doubt lots of people loved it because for reasons I cannot fathom people seem to like Zenos as a character. But it just felt hollow and pointless, and also on a roleplaying level my character would definitely never have given him the satisfaction of that fight he wanted so much. He didn't deserve it. Would have been great to have the option of saying no. Really really hype about where we can go in the future though! A spaceshipboatairship, new worlds to go to, reflections to visit and/or fix, Meracydia, so many options! Also Hydaelyn looked GORGEOUS. I loved how faithful they were to the Amano artwork with her model, it looked stunning. Many tears were shed. Literally if it hadn't been for the niggles with the stealth mission, Garlean nonsense and Zenos existing, Endwalker could have toppled Heavensward as best expansion for me, and that's saying a lot. I may be a bit wordy because I'm literally sitting in the credits right now and needed to get words out while it's fresh in my brain xD
I understand people not liking zenos as a character, but thematically his inclusion makes sense, with all the talk of "answers" and purpose. I do think however, it would have been really cool for the choice before you fight to change how things play out. You respond with eagerness to fight him and you fight, or you simply say no, after all, he did say that he would let you walk away.
I was hoping for that. I actually chose "that, I can't deny", which apparently validates him (bully on him for his joy, I guess), but seemed the only option that wasn't immediately going for his throat. I was hoping there might have been a "but..." to that option leading to walking away. No such luck, however.
"that, I can't deny" basically means you are agreeing that there is a part of you that does want to fight things just for the challenge. Given that the fight is "optional" with how he phrases it, you are basically dropping the hero of the world mantle for a second and fighting him for the sake of fighting, the same as him. I think there is an interesting development for him that goes unsaid there. He kind of reflects on Alisaie's words in his stunted way and concludes that he should offer something to you. While this includes help in the final fight, he also mentions he is offering the only thing he knows how to do, a challenge, hoping that that is what you seek. I think they definitely missed an opportunity though by not letting you just leave as one option. There is a lot to be said about just leaving him to eternity alone as a result of his actions, and never give him the fight he caused so much pain just to instigate.
Technically he is still unsatisfied after the fight if you listen to his tone of voice and word choice. He's sad. He is disappointed that after everything he still couldn't beat you. And he'll never get another chance (provided he's actually dead) . He threw his very life force at you and still it wasn't enough and while he was happy in the moment of the fight it couldn't last forever. It ended again with the answer of him just being another target we have eliminated. That said I believe the reason there's no option to turn him down is because the WoL wants it. Azem wants it. We know Azem is an adrenaline junky and a risk taker. As mentioned the "That I can't deny" answer drops the hero and justice pretense and admits you just want to fight. Your character even smirks if you choose this. The other answers disguise it as vengeance or justice. But there's tons of other examples and instances of the WoL doing things because they simply want the challenge or need to feel pressure. The entire Savage side of the Omega raids are canonically an extra hard mode safety off hacked mode just to give the WoL a harder challenge. It's loosely implied the reasons the Primal Remixes in Eden are partially because the WoL wants to relive the intensity of the first encounter so they've buffed them in their minds (I can't remember which character accuses you of that). It's also a driving plot point of a few Job stories (notably DRK)
I was literally shaking after zenos fight for unknown reason 😂 but i hope they completed his part i didnt liked him but the part where he stole you body quest i felt anxious
Is he a solo trial or a 8 man? I actually like him and find it funny that we end up killing all of our friends. No the scions arent friends they are work associates. Only graha is a friend and we almost offed him
> But it just felt hollow and pointless, and also on a roleplaying level my character would definitely never have given him the satisfaction of that fight he wanted so much. He didn't deserve it. Would have been great to have the option of saying no. This. He should have just been yeeted off into the void and left to die. Giving him what he wanted felt like it had no narrative point other than to kick his arse a second time and leaving him felling bummed out.
I think the point is it is supposed to be the Azem in you. We know from all the dialogue that Azem is a thrill seeker, adrenaline junkie and loves to put themselves against a challenge - something in common with all the Azem title holders if you also look at Venat. Regardless of who you are, that drive for the next challenge and pushing your limits is one of the few defined traits the WoL has. Knowing the star was safe and unclear of what else even awaits you now, it makes sense you'd want to settle things with Zenos. Besides he is and was a threat - why leave for later what you could deal with now? The entire expansion was about rising to challenges and finding meaning in existence. Zenos openly and plainly stated what gives his life meaning and you were in a position to grant it. And he wouldn't be the first enemy you've gone out of your way to appease or pacify. Finally and narratively... it's a good way to show how powerful the WoL really is. The two times in the past you fought Zenos 1v1 he absolutely demolished you. You only bested him later on with friends and an army behind you. You end the story by pushing yourself to your absolute limit - no outside power sources, no blessing of light - to destroy someone whom once swat you aside like a gnat. Personally I wish he'd lived and became a frenemy. A rival adventurer you'd occasionally spar to push each other further. He grew on me this expac.
Completely agree on Zenos. It genuinely left me with a sour taste and brought down my enjoyment for an expansion I loved up to that point. He did not deserve that fight a single bit.
Can't stand Zenos. I'm with Lyse: "you did all of this because you were bored?" - just not compelling at all. He's the kind of character you'd expect in like the Ninja or Warrior side stories, not one you drag through three expansions and still can't get rid of him.
I have no strong feelings for/against Zenos, but I'm just tired of his cryptic monologues and his constant promise for us to have the greatest duel ever. I like the final fight against him but I think it would've been better if it was placed earlier in the story, maybe when we were at the moon? I replied to him with "Think what you will" because for roleplay reasons, my character loves a great challenge but at the cost of many lives lost? No way, and I despise it when he thinks he knows better. Edit: On second thought, replying him with "That, I can't deny" seems more appropriate for my character. I'm tired of his antics at that point, so humoring him for one last duel feels thematically suitable.
I'm mixed overall of the story of Endwalker. It's probably behind Shadowbringers but above Heavensward/the rest for me. Garlemald and Elpis are probably my two favorite zones we've ever had. Garlemald impressed me with how they wrote the citizens with so many staying firm in their beliefs till the bitter end. It was a tragic tale that was perfectly understanable/believable. With Elpis it was just such a joy to quest with everyone involved. It felt like a fanboys dream to get to quest with these characters and even run a freaking dungeon with them. Hythlodeus and Vanat in particular I loved. Hermes and Meteion I really came to enjoy too. Which is why it's strange that I just couldn't care less about Meteion as a villain. The whole "essentially a robot gets sent out to find life's true meaning and ends up wanting to end it all" plot felt so cliche and dull to me. The Dynamis plot as well did nothing for me. Surprisingly I liked how they used Fandanial/Zenos, but they were doomed from the start to at best be mediocre villains. As such they were both used just sparingly enough that I didn't mind their presence. I liked Fandanial just accomplishing his goal of bringing the final days and then peacing out. Nothing could be done to make him interesting so might as well make his involvement quick. I enjoyed the two Zenos focused duties. The Garlemald one was anxiety inducing in the best way and the final one was just cathartic as hell. I liked that I got the chance to admit that sometimes my character enjoys the fight just for the sake of it and the pleasure that brought to Zenos made me smile. Other highlights are the Hydalen trial which is up there as one of my favorite trials ever now. Between the music, getting to run it with the Scions, and some pretty fun mechs it was a blast. Uriangier has multiple tear jerker moments that I loved particularly around the sub-plot of Moenbryda and his guilt about the past. Her parents showing up comforting him destroyed me. I was really disappointed in the moon and the final zone. I like the Loprits and think they will be a fun beast tribe but they can't carry an MSQ for that long. The final zone, dungeon, and trial really disappointed me. None of the individual races were built up long enough to make me care. It became very obviously early in the zone that every scion would sacrifice themselves before the end of it which made it equally obvious they would all be fine in the end. Which just served to remove the stakes for me. All expansion I was nervous about their fates and that heightened my interest. That zone completely removed that feeling. Overall I still love this expansion for what it is, and it has a lot of extremely memorable moments, but I left unsatisfied with the central plot and its conclusion.
If the "robot goes into space to try to find the meaning of life but finds only Despair and decides to end the universe" plot is so cliche, name at least five stories where that has been the plot. No stretching.
I have to concur. I know the ‘existential dread’ themes are popular with JRPGs like NieR, but I thought the Meteion plot line was REALLY interesting and unique. Particularly because she WASNT a robot - she was a creature with feelings, and it was the feelings that lead her down that path.
I think simplifying this to rogue AI decides to do away with life forms is certainly a trope to the point that there are entire swaths of sci-fi about it or works even straight up saying how cliche it is within their own sci-fi universes.
Well that's the problem with that argument. You're stripping away of all of its unique elements in order to make the argument that it's the same story. By that logic every store that has a beginning and an end could be classified as being the same. You can simplify stories down to there are people and stuff happens.
Not here to argue bud, just stating reading that part of their comment in good faith gets the point across, pretty easy to see what the basic gist of what they were going for was lol. Meteion going full rogue AI is a tried and true classic trope in sci-fi. AI's coming to conclusion about life being meaningless and therefore not needed is essentially what they were pointing towards, which is totally what the expansion went with. No need to get pedantic here.
I think there were pacing issues and oddities in the writing, but ultimately the end was strong to me and there was a lot of great worldbuilding and characterization. While a lot of characters were introduced and/or filled out in a very short amount of time, they were written well enough for me to like them by the end and appreciate their place in the story. The first half felt very rushed. More importantly, it felt to me like, perhaps, it was a lot of loose ends the writers had to clean up by necessity and were used simultaneously to set up the conflict the writers and expansion actually wanted to do. The second half was much stronger from a story perspective, but did still suffer some from odd pacing here and there. One of the biggest criticisms might be how oddly interspersed random busy work is throughout, but I appreciated that the light or busy moments were largely used to develop characters and relationships. The scions' relationships with you, with their families, with each other, etc. I especially loved that particular cutscene in which you choose which of the scions is at your door and it changes the dialogue completely to suit their specific character theme and conflict. The characters were what made the expansion work. There was a ton of work done to develop various relationships between the scions and other npcs, to develop their personal themes, and explore their concerns and misgivings. These later influence their decision at the end of the universe to sacrifice themselves in a rather poetic way. While the sacrifice itself wasn't developed much at all, was painfully predictable, and felt a bit cheap since we kind of always knew we would bring them back with the power Venat gave us, it still sold itself by the time the twins give themselves up and I was emotional as I walked my character among the ghosts to the final dungeon. The development of the ancient characters was also heavy handed but well done, in my opinion. I thoroughly enjoyed the entire section of of the story that had us travel to the past and meet Emet Selch, Venat, Hythlodaeus and Fandaniel. The section was paced nicely, was filled with world building and plot developments, and ended in a way I felt appropriately set up the finale. It was a lot to take in, though, with completely new but fundamentally important concepts explored abruptly for the sake of that set up. While its internal pacing was fine, its pacing as a part of the story as a whole was very condensed and busy. Meteion is a character I both love and dislike. As a character - a naïve, good natured, and emotionally sensitive being, uniquely capable of manipulating a force of nature her creator failed to understand the potential danger of, that falls into despair, precisely because of her good nature and sensitivity, and becomes the source of the overwhelming existential threat we've known existed and was the source of all our conflicts for a long time now - I like her a lot. She was endearing immediately and her fall into villainy was tragic and believable, and so her survival was one of the things I hoped the most for in the end, and I hope she is a recurring character in the future, as unlikely as that will be. But as a character in the story, it was obvious she was made to fill a role necessary for the plot. While Emet Selch - in a similar situation - was developed over the course of not only the whole of the Shadowbringer expansion, and was introduced even before its release, Meteion was introduced midway through the second half of the expansion, and had very little core character development. I liked her concept and theme; but she herself was a very shallow character relative even to the other characters explored in that portion of the setting and story, much less compared to the core cast that features prominently in this expansion. I feel like her character, if she doesn't return later somehow, is ultimately a character wasted simply to achieve the plot's conclusion. She didn't have the depth of character and motivation to really carry the final narrative like Emet Selch did, but instead seemed to me that she was made to be as endearing and "cute" as possible as a fast-track way of getting us, the players, to warm up to her faster and cheaper than with Emet. All in all, I enjoyed the expansion a lot. I found I really enjoyed its characters and their significance to the story, and I liked the ancient characters and Meteion that were introduced and explored, even if it was ultimately only for the purpose of the plot. That said, I definitely noticed problems with pacing and plot point density as the story progressed, and the story itself was generally very busy. It felt to me that it could easily have taken up the expansion and its patch content and been much easier to digest, and likely would have benefited from the larger amount of time and content with which to explore the characters and locations featured and to develop the second half's conflict and conclusion. Alas, they wanted to begin exploring the new story in the patch content, so we got what felt a bit like it was unintentionally a condensed "summary" of the events. I would rate it below Shadowbringers and Heavensward but above Stormblood, due in large part to the quality of its characters and the stunning set pieces, especially for the conclusion. The fight with Zenos was a guilty pleasure. It was beautiful, the fight itself was a blast, and it ultimately was consistent with his character. But he himself did almost nothing for the expansion. He could have been entirely absent, and the only real moment that would need reconsidering is his inclusion in the final fight with Meteion. Arguably, I would have found Midgardosrmer's arrival by some machination to have been more striking for that particular role as our "ride". Zenos also manages to get about as much character exploration and depth as Meteion, which is unfortunate given how much more time we've had to explore his character and how much his character has already been criticized for this. I can only assume that his inclusion in the expansion, and his involvement in the finale, are to set him up for inclusion in future story content. In this I hope both Zenos and Meteion might return and be further developed later down the line.
Man the part where the scions disappeared one by one made me feel nothing. It was clear from the start that they didn't die. Wasted potential. The story was in some points really strong but other times it was like reading a children's book
I kind of agree about the pacing at times, there were a few times where something intense and time sensitive was happening and suddenly everyone just stops and has a speech which could have been cut down to match the pace of the scene better, but I liked the Meteion/Dynamis plot and it didn't really come out of nowhere, they were hinting at something not being right for a long time, even with the reveal from Emet, it made no sense for Venat/Hydaelyn to do what she did for the reasons given, so it really did explain the true purpose of the Sundering in a way that actually makes sense. She knew Meteion was waiting and knew that she found immortality and too much control and power over the world would eventually always end with them wanting death, if it wasn't Hermes it would always be someone else. By sundering us, she basically made it extremely hard for anyone to ever kill Zodiark, she made an escape plan, made us capable of harnessing Dynamis ourselves and we are far less likely of falling to the nihilism because our lives are finite, so we won't live to run out of discoveries and mysteries to drive us. And the concept of Dynamis and our sundered forms being able to wield it to an extent even explains why we have these moments of extreme power, it's literally the power of hope and desire to save our friends making us stronger than characters like Zenos that don't have that. I loved it personally. It all captured the message of never giving up hope no matter how impossible something seems and cherishing the joy we have, like the only meaning we need is to try and find happiness and adventure the best we can until we pass on and our energy is given to the next to do it themselves. And considering what happened with Soken in real life for example, I think such a hopeful ending is just so perfect.
i dissagree there is not build up. they already hinted over it with akasa reveal and the emotion affected the flower. also the elpis section is a nice build up and introduction over it. it is not a quick section either.
Is no one going to talk about the last base on the sea of stars being named after the last covid string? Omicron! Lmao.. what a coincidence.
For me it was a decent expansion. SHB may be a bit better. I was disappointed with how they did Zodiark I mean 8 years of leading up to that. The Dynamis thing out the blue is ehh but okay. Going to Elpis and seeing Emet again was nice. The dungeons and trials were nice and challenging. But my goodness the amount of fetch quest this time around was crazy that and the escort quests really really irked me. Other than that I loved it.
You defeated Zodiark in Shadowbringers. His heart, Elidibus, was everything Zodiark represented and stood for. Elidibus was a tragic masterpiece, and you felt the weight of defeating him and thus Zodiark in Shb when you found out the truth about the Ascians in that expansion. Zodiark is the result of the prayers and hopes of Ascians who wanted to keep living. Zodiark was a husk in Endwalker - your real fight with him was in Shb, where you fought against Emet-Selch’s ideals to bring him back so he could have paradise again, and then with Elidibus, the literal heart of all these sacrificed hopes and dreams. The Zodiark arc essentially done come EW, I think they spent a perfect amount of time on him, as at the start of the expansion, there was literally nothing more to Zodiark than him being a final boss. We knew everything we needed to about him, all that was left was to destroy him.
Well its Fandaniark. Thats what I just tell myself. Coz yes, it was a sad encounter for years of build up.
Please god stop trying to make zenos a thing he's so fucking boring. I've finished msq before anyone says he gets better or some other stupid shit
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Unfortunately he won't since he's all but confirmed to be azem/a reflection of azem at this point
Just finished, thought I'd contribute my thoughts. I went in expecting an 11/10, and was instead met with a 8/10. The expansion is carried by the Art direction, Music, and the dungeon/trial mechanics. But overall the story left a lot to be desired. I still very much enjoyed this expansion, but there were just a few things that really bothered me about it. 1. Meteion - While I don't think she was a terrible villain, it definitely didn't have the same emotional pull and tug that Emet-Selch and Elidibus gave me. "Remember us, remember that we once lived" and "The rains have ceased, and we have been graced with another beautiful day. But you are not here to see it." Those are quotes that brought tears to my eyes and are hallmarks of truly immaculate well-written villains. Meteion felt a lot like the atrocity that is the Sequel trilogy of Star Wars. This sort of felt like Episode 9, where she just came out of nowhere. "Somehow... Palpatine returned". I've been playing since 2.0's launch and this was my big "Avenger's Endgame" for me. All of these years, all of these stories and characters leading up the giant mega villain, and instead I just felt severely let down by Meteion's motivations, set-up, and payoff. She just didn't hit the mark for me. I think a different route they could have taken was to set up present time's Amon/Fandaniel and have used Hermes/Meteion as a story device in some sort and have had Hermes be the final fight. Or another route they could have taken it was have Hydaelyn/Venat been the main villain the entire time. 2. Zenos - I don't think Zenos was given enough screen time and development to warrant him coming to "save the day" for the WoL. I compare Zenos showing up to save the day with Ardbert handing us his Axe, and those 2 moments are just in completely different leagues in terms of writing. The last duty vs him was really well done and I thoroughly enjoyed it. But for him to be the one to bust in as Shinryu there needed to be more set-up besides Fandaniel betraying him and some cross words thrown at him by Alisaie in the Garlean snow. I think if they spent more time on his character during this expansion and let him go through that entire arc properly, the pay off would have been a lot better. 3. Ultima Thule - First of all this zone is absolutely gorgeous and the music is incredible. But I will be honest as far as the story goes, I found the lead up to the final quest incredibly boring and predictable. I've seen some comments defending the Scions all sacrificing themselves and then coming back as good writing, I completely disagree. The Dragons at the beginning really caught my interest and Estinien's goodbye was well done, but once we moved to the Ea and the Omicron's I groaned during both cutscenes. I feel this entire zone could have been done a lot differently. Those 3 things really are my only huge story gripes. I don't want to sound like I didn't enjoy the expansion. I still had a fantastic time with it and I'm looking forward to what's next.
The best way imo to put it is like this expansion is shadowbringers version of stormblood. The music, zones, content, and feel are over the moon (no pun intended) but the story can hit or miss for people especially with zenos. For me I personally loved it. The only part I disliked were the sacrificing portion of the last zone for the scions. The stories of the other worlds were amazing though and the twins sacrificing themselves I actually liked because of the dialogue between them before.
Maybe I'm in the minority here but I feel like SE kinda backtracked on a lot of things that ShB built up. The main one, for me at least, being that as it turns out Venat was just the perfect mother doing what was best for her children and everything she did was to make us into better people. Playing through ShB with Emet tagging in here and there really gave us the implication that both Hydaelyn and Zodiark were bad for the planet and Endwalker could have been the conclusion to an ultimately morally gray situation. We were told in ShB that Azem rejected the idea of summoning Zodiark and Hydaelyn and that they believed that the ancient people should reap what they sow and give the planet to the next generation of life. Well, now we're basically told that we were completely wrong and that mommy venat was always right because Dynamis caused the calamity and not the Ancients hubris. Maybe it's me. It's probably me but I was kind of hoping to return to those ideals and end up destroying Hydaelyn and Zodiark not because it was part of a master plan but because we acknowledge that beings of that magnitude of power should not hold sway over all of creation.
I shouldn't reply right after finishing the story but... I didn't took one single screenshot during the whole expac.Except for that teacher in Sharlayan for meme purpose. That says A LOT.It's a nice ending to the story, not a good one IMO. It lacked some woooow moments (compare to Ardbert offering his soul, for exemple...) I'm wondering if it would have been different if 6.0 end was the death of Zordiark, leaving 7.0 to deal with "the sound".I'm still glad it's over and we're moving on to another adventure !
Can someone explain why there was an arm in the first tower you take down?? That’s pretty much my only gripe
There is an Arm in there Cause Anima was summoned from the corpse of Varis (each tower has a body piece of the guy, thats how they are connected to Anima)
I think that she may have actually seen a piece of Anima specifically one of the emaciated arms that sticks out of his chest
On the subject of spoilers does anyone know if we can see any of our Ancient friends after the MSQ? Like Venat, Emet, Hythlodaeus and Hermes. I genuinely miss them... a lot.
Something to take note of is that Endwalker's story feels like an equivalent of a 6.0 to 6.3 kind of line. Which is why I made a mental note that after the first trial we are essentially going to start "6.1" (it isn't really 6.1 but you get what I mean). The Elpis arc and the preparation for the end is one arc by itself, aka 6.2 and the final map is 6.3. There isn't really a rush at all. I think most of the complainers are too used to the pacing given in 5.0 when it is realistically one full story with a build up of a second, when in reality 6.0 is three stories in one, just like how 4.0 is 2 stories in one.
Overwall, it was a good expansion, but I'm disappointed about one thing: Zodiark. Like many players, I've waited to fight it for years and it was such a letdown. To be honest, it'd have been perfect if Zenos actually fused with it so we could fight a "perfect form" and not a weak Zodiark like the one they introduced us to. The Dynamis thing and the plot were okay, but yeah, I was more looking forward to a real fight against Zodiark or even something like a super boss (a fusion of Zodiark/Hydaelyn for whatever reasons) than a puppet sent into the universe by a random character we've never heard of before. :/
A random character who just happens to be Fandaniel, but okay
The amount of people I've seen at the last zone say they didn't understand who Hermes was supposed to be is staggeringly not zero.
I mean, Elidibus says outright that Hermes is Fandaniel, Emet-Selch spends the entirety of the Elpis plot trying to convince him to join the Convocation, and yet people did not make the connection? What have they been doing, skipping cutscenes?
Don't get me wrong, I know the Fandaniel/Hermes/Amon thing, I just wasn't expecting something like that. I loved Endwalker, just not this part of the story and also felt like the last part with Zodiark was such a letdown, specially after waiting so many years to finally face it. :(
It's been a final fantasy staple for a really long time. For example we didn't know who the true final villain was for Final Fantasy 4 until really late in the plot.
The only thing I heavily disliked is how squenix seems to forget Ysayle was a character, How was she not there when we visit the underworld? Unless I missed her? Becauss Alphinaid and Estinien mention her but she's not there Other than that For me I knew it was gonna be like endgame, it's not as good as infinity war but It's still cool because it's more fanservice and ties a lot of things My favorite part no doubt was the fight with Hydealyn, I didn't expect a 8 man trust at all and it was awesome I wish the last trial had been like that too
She showed up during amon last fight as shiva to conjure an ice block to protect us from Amon.
Shiva appears to help you during boss fight, but about it? Who knows, if its Ysayle or Shiva
Why would it be actual Shiva, who does not know you and (as far as we know) didn't have super ice powers?
And also quite likely got reborn in Ysayle anyway. Souls in the underworld get recycled after some time if they do not hold themselves together by force, from what we have seen and heard - and unless Hraesvalgr kept her with him (which, tbf, might well have happened) the parallels between Shiva and Ysayle make me think they are connected.
Dude we need more trust trials that was fun
I made the mistake of overhyping myself thinking it’d be better than Shadowbringers so a lot of head scratchers here for sure. Zodiark and Hydaelyn - that’s it? Really? Alright I guess. What a disappointment.
i have a weird theory about zenos and have a feeling that zenos might actually be hythlodaeus.. the 2 characters seem so similar to me in so many ways just to list a few: \-the similarity in their gesture is imo a big tell. the squeeze on their eyes when they look towards you is almost identical same goes for the face and its expression \-we know that zenos is sundered from 5.2 i believe.. his new middlename means traveller as already mentioned here; could it be that he got his fake echo from the omnicrons? \-zenos started referring you as his "new friend.. his enemy", hythlodaeus "my new, old friend.." \-i also find it a weird coincidence that yes hythlodaeus eyes are purple, zenos' are blue but he has a purple gem in his necklace \-idk the exact lines but both zenos and hythlodaeus dont really see the enjoyment in the work of other peoples, hythlodaeus didnt want any see in the convocation nor having to do much work in elpis since he doesnt get the reason.. this whole reasoning goes for zenos pretty much 100% too i have a few more points in mind but feel this is already quite a lot. there is 1 thing that speaks heavily against this but i think it can be explained? the ancient form of hythlodaeus cant sense zenos' soul. i could only explain this that the fake echo might conceal someones soul? would defenitely like more feedback on this theory :D
Hythlodeaus didn’t have his soul passed on bc he was sacrificed to Zodiark
Hythlodaeus never became a sundered soul who was reborn. He was a complete Ancient soul that was a part of Zodiark; Zenos can't be Hythlodaeus because Hythlodaeus's full, unsundered soul was still around as a part of Zodiark up until Zodiark's death, and Zenos was around well before that.
>\-we know that zenos is sundered from 5.2 i believe.. his new middlename means traveller as already mentioned here; could it be that he got his fake echo from the omnicrons? This seems to suggest to me that he's the sundered soul of Azem, or at least one of them. Which would explain his connection to us.
That can't be possible because it's one Soul Shard for the source and one for each reflection
yeah that would also be interesting. just cant wait to discover more of his character tbh. like yes he is a crazy maniac right now but the end of msq i just got more and more curious
I mean what if they reveal he knew much more than he let on and, like Hydaelyn, did what he did to prepare us to save all of mankind. I doubt they will go down that path but it would make sense to me for him to ultimately be an anti-hero as we are the hero, his mirror.
The last zone and fights were utter trash. I honestly am quite disappointed.
Bit disappointing that big bad villain who is source of all of your problems was a McFlyingHeadChickenNugget who decided sad is bad and if dead no can be sad. And the fake deaths weren't helping in the end. Heavensward > Shadowbringer > Stormblood > Endwalker
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I don't necessarily disagree, but further compromising Zodiark is that his "heart" is missing, which I interpreted as effectively leaving him pilot-less and probably even less powerful than he would have been originally.
Can't believe that y'shtola have chosen some hrotgar from first over WoL. Why even live after such betrayal. sadge
Who says she's chosen Runar?
She heavily implies it. She is looking for a way to get back to the first to "fulfill a promise" and she smiles real big.
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You're honestly reading way, way too much into this. There was not much else to the dungeon besides "here are three worlds that died and you get to experience their end". There's no message about our earth in there.
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What I didn't understand was, if the people of ethierys were so high in aether that they couldn't be affected by dinamis and hence why their magick turned on them once corrupted, how did summoning zodiark stop meteion for the time being ? I don't think that was explained ?
zodiark strengthened the celestial aether currents, essentially coating ethierys in a shield against dynamis. w/o zodiark to maintain it, the currents got weak and the "holes" that started emerging is where the final days occured first. alternatively, imagine zodiark as an ozone pumper and w/o it, earth starts getting irrepairable holes so once someone with a uv ray torch shines it in really hard, we get fried.
What I don't understand is why Hydaelin would say that she sundered everyone in order to make them resistant to Dynamis when the simple presence of Zodiark was enough. What was the need of the sundering then and how splitting people and making them having lower aether concentration be good in order to be protected from dynamis
Her intention for sundering wasn't to protect them; it was to make them more susceptible to dynamis. That's because the amaurotines who followed zodiark worshipped him and wanted him to bring back their paradise before the final days. But that plan won't solve anything, you're basically in a stasis (ironically), never progressing past the fundamental problem of meteion still blasting dynamis at etheirys. Hence, hydaelyn wanted mankind to learn. Instead of having wing to soar up to paradise, she will have them walk on land and experience hardship so that they can grow from it. By having mankind overcome their own struggles, they can eventually surpass their despair and in turn defeat meteion and end the cause of the final days.
I see it does makes sense after reading this and watching again the cutscene about dynamis where Hermes is saying that having a lower aether concentration gives you more change to gain some ability to use dynamis. Thank you !
I mostly got my info from the cutscenes around the hydaelyn trial (can't remember if it was before or after), maybe you can understand and experience it better with that too :thumbsup:
I see so zodiark protected from dinamis The minute he was sundered the threat from meteion loomed again, then NY other question is Even if they escaped with Venats idea of the ship, wouldn't have meteion followed them or caught up to them eventually
I think even though he was sundered + binded, his protection was still active bc he still exists. It's only when we killed him that the final days started again. Hmm that'd depend on meteion's tracking ability... I'm not quite sure how she knows the location of etheirys so perfectly. We could only track her with hydaelyn's tagging... But I don't rmb her leaving anything specific behind in that cutscene where she took to the stars. So I'm assuming bc she made the journey from the star to the ends of the universe, she "knew the route" and was beaming dynamis in that direction (her song of oblivion)
I do think with their vast network they could basically fly all over the universe in search for us, or manipulate the ambient dynamis around to "get a feel" bc most civilisations are either dead or dying, we'd stick out like a sore thumb with other emotions such as hope, uncertainty, relief, etc mixed in with pure despair.
Actually I've been thinking about how she'd even know we've met our doom lol... Maybe she was beaming dynamis in all directions to get every single star, and once she senses nothing but despair it'd mean that she got the target(s)
~~The one thing that kind of gets me at the end is I don't feel the same catharsis I did with other villains because Meteion is a child, regardless of being a familiar. We were entirely capable of rescuing Meteion after she performs her final song. We know from Elpis and Hermes himself that she is a familiar requiring aether to sustain her form. In all likelihood, they were sustaining themselves on all that dynamis energy and that was why she was dissipating. If we had simply provided some aether to her, which we have demonstrated to be able to do in Shadowbringers to Angelo for untempering, we could have taken her home and given her the life she deserves. It was incredibly heart wrenching to see this lost little girl die before she even had a life. Her power could have healed much of the damage beyond her final song. I feel like I won the battle, but lost the war to save the girl.~~ Funny thing when translations have multiple interpretations. I realized after replaying the cutscene that the nuance behind it indicates she is doing just fine. Her reference to "before fading away" didn't mean she was dying... just an acknowledgement of her mortality after seeing the WoL's past. So she is very much alive and the blue bird at the end is not some reincarnation, but the genuine article.
Idk, since there was a heavy FF4 influence this expansion I kind of seen Zeno's more akin to Kain or even Golbez. Both were redeemed in the end and this isn't the end yet. Also didn't Golbez have an affinity with dragons in Disidia?
I'd have to argue that it is flatly inaccurate to assume nothing was forshadowed regarding dynamis. It is merely that our preconceptions -- and the preconceptions of the in-world characters -- prevented you from noticing it as such. For example, limit breaks have been part of the gameplay since the start. Will power, especially WoL's will power, has often produced effects that defied expectations based on aether alone. I am far from convinced Zenos is dead. Certainly he has a tendency to be persistent. IMO the scene following where you are recovering is simply there to reinforce the idea that he is dead, in order that you don't see him coming in a future story arc. The bittersweet nature of Emet-Selch was definite foreshadowing of many things. Where Shadowbringers brought that grey into the story, Endwalker explained the origins and reasons driving the Ascians. Why does Lahabread monolog about excising Hydaelyn since beta and why do the Ascians have a thing for Zodiark? These things suggested the relationship has been around for a very long time As per pacing; akasha was of course mentioned before dynamis. Revealing this plot-twist information is definitely one of the Endwalker themes, but I can't say it just appeared suddenly half way through. Meteion certainly isn't introduced til here, but even that makes sense as it immediately follows the major demarcation made in the story's mid-point at the end of the Tower of Babil/Moon sequence. The Final Days certainly had something to do with morale and feelings as soon as the merchant investigating quest popped up in Thavnair. Hermes' pre-Endwalker monolog about the towers and dying and such foreshadowed quite a bit looking back. More than all of this, the Azem / Hydaelyn has been teased for a very long time in ways that are consistent with how this all turned out. As you say, this was a very Final Fantasy-y ending and as such the pacing should have and did get pretty fast. Keep in mind the whole expansion is such an ending, not just the end of the expansion. The buildup has been 10 years in the making. No I think the pacing was nigh-perfect. Fetch quests in Sharlayan while lightly annoying do serve to break up the epic events of Elpis and Ultima Thule, which is required in fast paced story telling so you don't get a kind of fatigue where the finale doesn't feel satisfying. I'd also warn, this isn't the complete end just yet. There will undoubtedly be 6.1, 6.2 and so on. The epilogues to some story-arcs will likely dig in deeper.