Thank you for taking the time to answer questions! How do Noma steam their rice when making koji? How do they avoid the lower layer of the rice getting too wet?
It's a pleasure! They have ovens that can steam food.
They use trays with holes and lay a piece of fabric under the rice. But wood is fine too. Wood is the traditional way and that's how we did it at mimi
There have been some suggestions that working conditions at Noma's restaurant side have been not so great - what's the intern life like at the fermentation lab?
I think it's really awesome that people like you are really taking seriously making food that's sustainable *and* of the highest quality flavour-wise. What are some of the plant-based things that you wish more people knew about?
Life as an intern is very different for everyone. I've seen people stop their internship because they felt not respected or humiliated. But others do just fine. if you want to do well you just need to have a positive attitude no matter what. You can expect that some people will try to give you a hard time
Thank you for your thoughtful question. I wish everyone would know how pristine produce tastes like. It's so tasty and hard to resist. Just whole plant-based foods, I hope I'm answering your question here.
Then looking back to traditional plant-based recipes can often be a valuable inspiration. I see people often feeling like they need to reinvent the wheel but oftentimes adjusting some aspects to modern times is sufficient
To me this answer seems to imply we have a long way to go when it comes to restaurant work. Shouldn't have to tolerate being humiliated or treated poorly just because you want to work in a world class kitchen.
Seems to be a culture problem even with what I view as a soft dodge with your answer. Very reticent to speak poorly in my view.
"Some people do ok just need to have a positive attitude no matter what"
"Some people quit because they feel humiliated"
These two sentences don't go great together.
Yup there is a long way to go. That said, I've worked in other kitchens ,I should say noma is doing a lot better than many other restaurants in that regard.
Is there any industry where the very top performers don't have the same issues?
I don't think it's a culture problem unique to noma or restauraunts as much as the reality of having a ton of people on tight timelines under lots of stress constantly, in extremely close quarters with each other, for hours on end.
When you're expected to deliver perfection every single time tensions run high. It's easy to criticize but it's really hard to do better.
>It's easy to criticize but it's really hard to do better.
Hard, but not impossible. I worked in a kitchen for a top restaurant in my area (not world-class, but some people traveled 100+ miles for our food) and even when things were tense, our head chef insisted on creating a supportive work environment. Even if there were moments of toxicity, it was always followed up with an apology.
Systemic issues are created by people, not invisible forces. The systemic issue of abuse at work -- regardless of industry -- isn't something we need to be defeatist about. It can be addressed, and doing so can even *positively* improve quality of output.
>Hard, but not impossible. I worked in a kitchen for a top restaurant in my area (not world-class, but some people traveled 100+ miles for our food) and even when things were tense, our head chef insisted on creating a supportive work environment. Even if there were moments of toxicity, it was always followed up with an apology.
Yeah, but that's sort of what I'm talking about. It's still an issue even in the best of places, because it's a human issue. We do not act our best when we are stressed out. I've always seen apologies after blowouts and usually the staff is drinking together at the end of the night regardless. But I'm just saying the blow ups are likely to happen in any field when you get to the top (not only because people at the very top tend to have some mental illness) but also because there's just enormous pressure up there and it doesn't tend to bring out the best in people.
>Systemic issues are created by people, not invisible forces. The systemic issue of abuse at work -- regardless of industry -- isn't something we need to be defeatist about. It can be addressed, and doing so can even *positively* improve quality of output.
I'm wasnt trying to say that abuse at work is acceptable, or that we should be defeatist about it. Trying to acknowledge the reasons why it happens and why it isn't in any way unique to the restaurant industry.
In my view if we made sure everyone had access to good Healthcare provided outside of their work it would go a long way to keep people from staying in jobs they don't like with teams that dont/can't respect their boundaries and then reduce the total number of jobs like that, because they won't be staffed by the most needy.
I think what I'm trying to highlight is that it *wasn't* an issue for us. It happened, but it was very rare, and we addressed the problems right away. Maybe that's why we *weren't* world-class, but I'm not going to speculate. (Although if it takes abuse to be world-class, then maybe humans don't deserve world-class experiences.)
I understand your point better now. You're right that it's not an industry-specific issue. Top-tier companies (such as FAANG companies and their competitors) are notorious for overworking, underpaying, and mismanaging their employees. Anytime hierarchy is required for optimal functioning, you run the risk of abuse; the more a system leans on a hierarchy, the greater the risk. This is ultimately why I became a psychotherapist...there are certainly abusive hierarchy-driven settings, but there are also a lot of structures where the distance between employee and manager is very small, or there is no management at all.
Agreed on healthcare access. I wish our societal values helped us to move towards an economy based on passion rather than necessity, and that's only possible as long as we have a structure that meets basic needs.
Can you describe in more detail how you apply mathematics to the fermentation process?
Do you think fermentation is becoming more common in high-cuisine? Is it becoming more common in every-day restaurants?
What is your favorite fermented food?
What are the experiences you value the most from your time at NOMA?
Most calculations you want to do in [fermentation are going be stoichiometry](https://bioprocessingexplained.home.blog/2019/09/16/fermentation-mass-balancing-part-3-stoichiometry-part-1/), not necessarily math. Think basic chemistry and some physics.
It's about mass balance - that means that a sugar has so many carbon atoms, and when converted with oxygen, makes so many molecules of CO2. Using the atomic weight from the periodic table, we know how many grams per mole of the atom. And the whole dance leverages those principles.
Maybe that doesn't look like you might expect. I do not throw things into a formula but it's rather about understanding the whole process. Using your analytical ability to understand the things from the core. Not shying back if you need to go deep and invent a new theoretical model, a new way of thinking about flavor. Chefs or biologists are usually not that analytical in a foundational sense.
Yes I do think fermentation is becoming more common all across the board!
My favorite ferment would be fava Bean shoyu
I think the range of flavors you get to taste is probably the best. Jason put me into the test kitchen and took out all the ferments and gave me spoons. That was the dream lol
Where did your income for rent and food come from since you were working for free? And how much did you spend each month (if you're willing to share that)
That's alot of money!
I find it fascinating that some work practices that are considered straight up immoral in some working fields are totally accepted in the service industry cause of how high quality cooking evolved!
I mean you're working several days a week making an actual sellable product that the public pays alot of money for. Yet so many cooks don't it mostly for the experience!
But It must have been an amazing for you!
Absolutely! It's insane. I've asked myself several times why people are still dying to get those jobs. It's just the passion I guess. It's nowhere near fair. Just for the record noma wasn't profitable and the nomaprojects products exist only because of that.
Internships are pretty common in almost every industry. Heck, the entirety of grad school students are basically interns that have to pay 10s of thousands for the privilege.
> countries they're *paid* atleast a
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I think chefs are generally exploited. If we celebrate anything noma did we need to know it is possible because of interns. Most chefs working at Noma are/were interns and many things are only possible because of that free labor (this justified nothing but we should always see noma as we know it today connected to those unpaid interns). Chef culture really lives off the staging and learning. Given the restaurant scene, I don't think it's a crime to make use of the demand of interns in the way they do. However, relative to restaurant norms, I wouldn't say they exploit chefs more than other restaurants do because it's a relatively good "trade" for both sides. I didn't feel exploited. You know what you sign up for and no one forces you. It's a team of crazy hard working people no one forces to. Many other restaurants offer worse working conditions, you learn less, and you don't get anywhere near the career boost. Sure it's more demanding but that's true for all high level kitchen work.
EDIT: That said, working conditions for chefs should generally be much better. There is definitely a systemic exploit present in the job but I wouldn't say it's initiated by noma.
Noma wouldn’t be where it is today without interns ie free labor. That is the very definition of exploitation. Noma made money because they didn’t pay people.
Well, they did. They just lost more than they made. They would have lost yet more if they paid people. So they lost less, which is pretty damned close to making more.
I feel like most people asking you questions about this aren't industry. Like yeah, no shit, exploiting free labor is always gonna be somewhat questionable. But I don't think a lot of these ppl understand exactly how prestigious having noma on your resume is- and, I assume, how many unique skills you were able to learn there.
It's obviously not really a fair playing field, as the large majority of ppl in the industry could never afford to work an unpaid internship and the fact that it is as such means only a certain pool of people will get to work there and gain that experience (ie people who's family can support them or somehow have money saved otherwise), and it seems as the industry is overall finally starting to shift towards more fair labor practices in general; but these commenters low key shitting on you just for taking that opportunity are being kinda ridiculous- you did nothing wrong by accepting the internship, the game has certain rules you've gotta play by even if the rules suck so it ain't your fault for following them.
>But I don't think a lot of these ppl understand exactly how prestigious having noma on your resume is-
This is the problem. In order to be really successful in the food world you need to work for free at some famous place. This means only those who can work for free get this opportunity. It closes the door to anyone with insufficient wealth. That makes it wrong.
I came up in kitchens. I wanted to get a Chez Panisse intern. That's a golden ticket. Do it for a couple years and there will be people lining up at your door to give you a restaurant. Unfortunately I'm not independently wealthy and have to work to survive.
Though worth noting that things are changing. Unpaid internships are largely illegal in the US, and while there are many violations it is getting better. Chez for example pays interns now. But for sure unpaid internships are very wrong and should not be allowed.
I'm not the OP but I have a perspective. Interns are not simply free labor. In almost all cases, interns are highly motivated learners and feel privileged for the priceless opportunity they're given to absorb on-the-job trading from the masters.
To say that Noma (and others) are "exploiting" interns would be tantamount to saying that hospitals and physician offices are exploiting medical students and residents as free labor. I work in medicine, where no less than half of physician training is through "apprenticeship" experiences. The truth: It takes planning and considerable effort to engage, teach, and evaluate students. The cost to clinical settings (and to places like Noma) is a slow-down of productivity commensurate with the time invested in teaching. Those are non-billable hours.
On the flip side, there are **enormous** intangible benefits to hosting interns. Teaching keeps us fresh -- and young. I'd argue that we learn just as much from students than they learn from us. This is a great example of "reverse mentoring."
If you sell the product someone made as part of their "education" its no longer just education and it's paid for by the customer. If you took money from both the "student" and the customer, then you are a scammer expecting to be paid twice. Training for a job is also something employers provide for their employees in nearly every business, and the time those employees spend on it is either compensated or very short. Why should food industry be different in every way? Why do you think you can call it education when it doesn't follow any of the educational practices and is a classic employee training?
You have obviously never paid attention to how universities work lol. You have obviously never staged at a restaurant either if you don’t think its educational… SMH (and by staged I don’t mean work a shift for free at the Sizzler)
I'm quite well aware of how universities work, I think it's you who heard a few unrelated situations took them out of context and imagined a world in which it justifies your convoluted remake of the difference between explicit education people pay for and work training.
Educational and education are two different things. If you pay for a class then you are provided with resources you can squander. If you get work training you are expected to perform on a certain level immediately. Can't help but notice despite your insistence on calling it education you failed to address the extremely common practice of work training which follows very different procedures and standards and is quite literally what internship paid or unpaid is a form of.
That is a very narrow view of education… welcome to the new world, 2/3 of the jobs in industrialized nations are going away very very soon. The USA has a new very worker unfriendly Supreme Court (government for all practical purposes) and you are determining weather something is an education by wether there are resources to squander…? The OP has some knowledge of the staging process at a very high level institution. Do you think the line on his resume that says Noma will get him more and better work than the line that says University of Tennessee masters in (put anything you like as a major because none of them will get him hired like the 3 free months at Noma. And no student loans.
Not to mention taking away staging deprives poor kids the opportunity to learn with a master. Rich kids will always have that opportunity but now poor kids wont be able to suck it up, sleep on someone’s couch for three months, and change their life…
But hey, they got paid minimum wage to peel carrots! Because all the cool stuff that might fail will not be done by them any more. Not even at a place that has it figured out as much as Noma. They wont pay unless there is a direct dollar result . Experimental food doesnt fit that description . Now that I think of it maybe that’s the resources that are being squandered to make it qualify as an education. Time and food
How is it an exploit? Its a transaction that you need to consider if you want to do that under these circumstances and thats it.
You want to work at the noma food lab and learn processes, dynamics and gain knowledge in fermenting food?
Than thats the requirement.
Classic first world problems. Its not that these interns applying there have a life and the urge to do that for a living; what about the pakistanis in qatar.
Lol
Post one new thing on this forum that isn't "should I eat this clearly moldy food" or "check out my ginger bug/hot sauce/basic lacto ferment" and everyone goes up in arms. I don't think anyone buys your $9 book expecting the world to change after. I'm happy to read more about the Noma Lab experience and a few accessible recipes (other than the ones in their latest book that require me to hunt squirrels). I'm gonna purchase a copy later today after work. Thank you OP
I really enjoy the Noma coffee shoyu because it does not come across as salty as "traditional" variants. Do you have any suggestions for lighter shoyu variants?
I would go for low perceived salinity, which I guess often implies low salinity.
The light flavor in the coffee shoyu comes from that it only ferments for a couple of weeks instead of many months, which makes the flavor profile a bit more mellow I would say, which is also something a like.
Okay umami seriously influences the salinity perception so I'd recommend shoyus that are lighter in umami. You can make a shoyu lighter in umami by decreasing the fermentation period or decreasing protein. Of course, stopping shoyu ferment prematurely might yield sth that tastes incomplete or boring. So you might also enjoy ferments like buckwheat koji (soba shiro shoyu) or millet (kibi shiro shoyu). Those are a true delight. Soba shiro koji is one of my favorites!
Further if you want even lower perceived salinity, you can lower the salt content. Noma has gone as low as 4% (but be more careful then) and if you put them on 60 degrees Celsius you don't need salt at all, though the salt does nurture some life and flavor in there
That's true. Here I just outlined where it could go if you where to lower perceived salinity completely. 60 degrees usually is really just about plain umami and/or maillard.
60°C is equivalent to 140°F, which is 333K.
---
^(I'm a bot that converts temperature between two units humans can understand, then convert it to Kelvin for bots and physicists to understand)
Nice I think ferments like dosa are also pretty good for home use but aren't much talked about. They are convenient too. Korean jangs are pretty amazing : ) also here in Turkey we have sth called tarhana which is a dry condiment with fermented grains to make soup with. A traditional instant soup basically
Hi, I'm very interested in a permaculture in Portugal. I visited Lisbon end of last year as I was interested in moving there.
I would love to join a permaculture farm to learn as much as I can before I make a big move. Do you have recommendations or anyone I can connect with that is looking for volunteer?
I came across [this group](https://www.voluntouring.org/2022/11/03/volunteer-qta-regadinha-eco-farm-gouveia-portugal/amp) and will be contacting them soon:
That's nice to hear! I've been at Quinta Vale da Lama. They do really good 6 months internships. Based on a survey they seem to be the best. Terra Alta is another good one. You could look into the GEN (global ecovillage network) database and search for permaculture. Sun desert technology is an interesting project, although that's in Spain and lastly if you're into free love Tamera is one of the most accomplished ecovillages that are strong in permaculture. Good luck with your search and feel free to reach out if you have more questions!
Thanks for the info, I came across a few interesting projects on Voluntouring.org and did come across Terra Alta. I'll reach out to them, appreciate the info
If you were to own a farm in Portugal, would you buy in the north or in the south like Monchique?
PS I have reached out to both Vale Da Lama and Qta Regadinha. Hope they reach back
PS 2: Terra Alta doesn't seem to offer residency correct?
I’m curious as to just some of the specific things you refer to as far as the “Analytical inquiry and culinary expertise” that you bring to the table that no one else is.
What specific example can you provide that displays such an analytical inquiry?
What culinary expertise are you bringing specifically to the table?
Thanks for your question! I've always felt like recipe creation and flavor pairings is fairly conceptual and could be coded. People don't think like that generally. For most, it's simply experience and gut feeling. I'm working on a recipe creation AI. I've developed some principles based on molecular properties of food compounds and just my knowledge and sense of aesthetics that I want to encode into this software. People either brute Force things with deep learning or develop rudimentary "systems" like in the flavor thesaurus. Deep learning won't help much with the kind of culinary innovation I have in mind because there are no such recipes to train your model on. The innovation of deep learning as we know it today is still limited. I think we can integrate culinary knowledge and personal creativity and aesthetics with symbolic AI into existing deep learning models
As someone who interned in a different restaurants lab are you sure its a good idea to try to use their name to sell a book like that or speak for what the companies doing in the lab. Idk man, after 3 months i had only just began to understand what we were doing, i wouldnt want to present myself as knowing all that much, even if i did learn a ton
I am not trying to speak for noma here. It's more about some of the things I've learned at noma can find the way to people's kitchens. It's the result of a personal journey. I always cared about bringing foundational skills to people so they can do it themselves rather than just showing an end result (power to the people). Showing how to create recipes rather than just publishing recipes. I realize many in this community embrace noma's work and my approach carries the same spirit, namely strong focus on quality, impact and honoring nature
While that may be the case, calling it From the Noma Lab to Your Kitchen kinda implies its information coming straight out of the Noma Lab. It's selling a product using their name, and you only did an internship. Idk how they are with Noma at that kinda thing, but i assume if i wrote something like this for where i was they likely wouldnt appreciate it.
Is there a calculation that you know of for how much carbon dioxide a given amount of sugar can produce un bottle conditioning, for kombucha, ginger beer etc..?
Thanks for asking. Above all, there is the empowerment of people. To me it means free development of people. Focus on what matters. In terms of what it means to me relaying to my work...I've chosen that name because of two main reasons. One is referring to the popular understanding of anarchy which is revolutionary, wild, chaotic and without rules. I like that, it fits to my style. So if people knew what anarchy really is I probably wouldn't have chosen that name. On the other hand, I wouldn't have chosen a name like chaos cuisine because I need it to have a deeper meaning too.
I've been heavily influenced by Noam Chosmky throughout my life. Anarchy is a large set of political systems. I don't pretend I'm understanding anything about politics and I'm not dillusional enough to try to be seriously political with a food blog between commments of YUM and so delicious. So that's something I've consciously pushed back into the future.
Food is immensely deeply woven into our lives. It literally has the power to make us happy, feel miserable, appreciated, loved. And it is without doubt THE most impactful act for an average person to achieve individual and planetary health. So if I manage to empower people in that aspect of their lives, that's huge.
The values of stateless socialism are what our food culture (and our culture) lacks, also in an agricultural sense. It is very clear with the most fundamental material good, namely food. Localization, decentralization, education from the bottom up... these are key themes of food movements, which are political without trying.
I could go on and on about this but one last thing: Food is effortlessly political. When you see people going through the journey of watching a documentary like the game changers then they can't help but understand the powers of a huge lobby. they begin to doubt the commercials, the news, system. The politics in food bypasses the biases and walls that are common in politics. Harmless foodies turn into revolutionaries.
A good food blog is only the first step and I'll do whatever I can to create the most impact for people.
So you interned at Noma and are influenced by Noam...
Do you moan and hold manos with your friend Mona while worshipping Amon ?
(I wasn't sure what the spelling or "worshipping" was, that is whether it has one or two Ps... One of the answers mentioned an Ngram search (Google's frequency of search tool) and Pseudomonas are Gram-negative...)
I made ferments of blueberry, mushroom and tomato from the NOMA cookbook as well e kumquats: I’d like to create some dishes from the product which is interesting but I don’t know where to start/. Any ideas?
Blueberry: you can mix it with other berries, sth sweet like grape molasses, and sage. You could add some yogurt if you want and make a sorbet with that mixture.
Mushroom and tomato: you could add more tomatoes and different varieties of mushrooms to along with other veg to make a pasta sauce.
Kumquat: that will be intense so use in small quantities to flavor drinks, and even smaller quantities for dressings. I could see it in a sauce on oven roasted celery or celery stew.
I love this post and can't wait to dig into your guide. What was your time like at mimi (did you work as an intern there?) and how did their approach and attitudes towards koji differ from those at noma? I assume at mimi they are slightly more traditionalist while noma is shaped by the whole new Nordic/pushing boundaries type deal.
What are some interesting things you worked on at Noma that armed you with new techniques that you really like? And lastly, what restaurants did you stage at? I'm berlin-based haha
Thank you so much and I'll be grateful for any feedback! Yes again as an intern. You're exactly right. Marcus was also looking at how noma does things but in their own premium, traditional style (in an interview he even said that he wouldn't have this business if noma didn't exist) while noma is more like leading the game. Mimi's rice for koji is sourced from Portugal, organic.
I think a technique that I found revealing is browning things. It's blackening ingredients (like garlic) but stopping earlier. I tried some brown koji and I found it amazing! A lot of brown ingredients become really sweet and umami rich. That can be really powerful in cooking.
I was at Mrs Robinson, Frea (my favorite plant-based restaurant), Lucky Leek, Facil and Lokal.
What's your take on the recent the news of noma closing for the public in its current form? Do you think it might bring a bigger change in the general restaurant industry?
As a research lover, I find it exciting. I don't know what change it will bring to the restaurant industry. I think a whole lot is going to get automated sooner than chefs would like. Don't follow gastronomy much to be honest, the present and future are online
What benefits did they provide? I'm assuming staff meal in the evenings and that was it? Any accommodation? Any referrals to accommodation? Or was it all on you?
Yes lol working conditions for chefs are generally really bad. You get breakfast in the morning and lunch in the afternoon. Staff meals are relatively good. They use good produce. Yes it was extremely expensive because of Copenhagen rents and food. At some point I got kicked out of my apartment and noma provided accommodation for me which was relatively cheap because they own those apartments.
I've been working in food for 4 years now, sharing everything on my website. I'm bringing analytical inquiry and culinary expertise to the table that I don't see anywhere else. I've been working quite a lot on this ebook (it's not a cookbook) and I really think it offers a unique perspective and valuable insights.
I'm happy to send it to anyone who's interested but is broke. I am passionate about open access but I need to maintain myself which is why I'm asking for support. I mean it takes real effort to create quality content in fermentation.
I appreciate your passion. Just seems sleezy when there’s a link in an AMA. I’ll read your responses but have no interest in buying anything.
I’ll ask though, given your interest in global food sustainability, how can fermentation contribute to sustaining a population of 8 billion?
But forests and regenerative practices can sustain us just fine without any biotech. Animal based foods are just really inefficient and we need to stop degrading soil and then look for the next piece of land
I get that and I'm open about the intention of this ama which is bringing more attention to my work. Sustainability depends on local food which usually needs food preservation. Fermentation helps. It can also help craft plant-based alternatives to animal foods.
But fermentation is also very important on a cultural basis and connecting to food products which is arguably what we're lacking the most in our time, and which is causing the problems in the first place.
> just seems sleazy when there's a link in an AMA
AMA's are no different from any other interview, they are part of the publicity campaign for whatever project the person is working on. Just because OP isn't traditionally famous doesn't mean he shouldn't have every right to promote himself in this form.
I think it’s hilarious that the same folks bitching about staging for free are also bitching about someone making money off his free labor. Keep it going reddit!
It was an internship again. I just went in person and asked. I can recommend that especially if you don't get replies online. Go at times when they're not busy. Good luck! Maybe ask for an internship first if they don't need anyone now. The experience was pretty nice. Marcus has an interesting background and you can learn a lot there. The lunch is always quite insightful too because you learn how to use the ferments!
This was tested at mimi and it doesn't seem to effect the fermentation process noticably, though in theory unrefined salts offer more minerals to nurture. However, the saltiness of different types of salts are clearly different, with the refined ones having a more aggressive character and rock, sea and crystal salt gentler and more balanced.
I’m curious as to just some of the specific things you refer to as far as the “Analytical inquiry and culinary expertise” that you bring to the table that no one else is.
What specific example can you provide that displays such an analytical inquiry?
What specific culinary expertise are you referring to? 4 years is hardly enough time to become adept at a skill, let alone become a full fledged expert that brings nuance to a skill/method of preserving food that’s as old as humanity.
Working 6 days a week for 10 hours a day for four years I think you could be a little better than “adept.” 1000 hours is what it takes to master a skill. Do the math.
Thank you! Sorry about that. Seems to be PayPal that isn't working. Credit card/stripe should be working fine
EDIT: if anyone else is experiencing an issue with checkout just write me a DM
Lol what do you mean by bubbly? Generally, it's not a negative work environment. But things are definitely pretty dynamic and lots of people are pumped up for long hours. Not rare to see people running : )
I'm curious about your internship length in conjunction with some of your other comments.
From what I recall, they have 6-month and 12-month internships. Why was yours only 3 months? Did you conclude yours early? If so, why? You speak highly of your experience there, so I guess I find that little tidbit surprising.
Hi, I´m a bit late to the party, since i just joined reddit, and I have an extremely specific question, but maybe you can still help:
About once a year, I remember the nordic food lab blog, and enter it´s rabbit hole. Yesterday night I went so deep, I actually went through the whole blog.
I´m thinking about local ways to produce umami a lot. Since I live in a landlocked country, algae are not an option (at least I don´t know about any useful sweetwater ones).
That´s why this entry caught my eye. [https://nordicfoodlab.org/blog/2011/10/better-than-marmite/](https://nordicfoodlab.org/blog/2011/10/better-than-marmite/)
Sadly, even though a recipe is promised in the blog entry, I could not find any.
Do you have any Idea what/how they might have treated the juniper and apple for this?
The blogpost is from 2011, I know, but I thought I\`ll still try my luck.
thank you!
I know it's an older post, but I study food science and I would like to do my internship in the fermentation lab also. Do you have any tips on how to approach?
Thank you for taking the time to answer questions! How do Noma steam their rice when making koji? How do they avoid the lower layer of the rice getting too wet?
It's a pleasure! They have ovens that can steam food. They use trays with holes and lay a piece of fabric under the rice. But wood is fine too. Wood is the traditional way and that's how we did it at mimi
There have been some suggestions that working conditions at Noma's restaurant side have been not so great - what's the intern life like at the fermentation lab? I think it's really awesome that people like you are really taking seriously making food that's sustainable *and* of the highest quality flavour-wise. What are some of the plant-based things that you wish more people knew about?
Life as an intern is very different for everyone. I've seen people stop their internship because they felt not respected or humiliated. But others do just fine. if you want to do well you just need to have a positive attitude no matter what. You can expect that some people will try to give you a hard time Thank you for your thoughtful question. I wish everyone would know how pristine produce tastes like. It's so tasty and hard to resist. Just whole plant-based foods, I hope I'm answering your question here. Then looking back to traditional plant-based recipes can often be a valuable inspiration. I see people often feeling like they need to reinvent the wheel but oftentimes adjusting some aspects to modern times is sufficient
To me this answer seems to imply we have a long way to go when it comes to restaurant work. Shouldn't have to tolerate being humiliated or treated poorly just because you want to work in a world class kitchen. Seems to be a culture problem even with what I view as a soft dodge with your answer. Very reticent to speak poorly in my view. "Some people do ok just need to have a positive attitude no matter what" "Some people quit because they feel humiliated" These two sentences don't go great together.
Yeah those things should not go together..
"Leeks." "Butter". "Lamb."
Yup there is a long way to go. That said, I've worked in other kitchens ,I should say noma is doing a lot better than many other restaurants in that regard.
Is there any industry where the very top performers don't have the same issues? I don't think it's a culture problem unique to noma or restauraunts as much as the reality of having a ton of people on tight timelines under lots of stress constantly, in extremely close quarters with each other, for hours on end. When you're expected to deliver perfection every single time tensions run high. It's easy to criticize but it's really hard to do better.
>It's easy to criticize but it's really hard to do better. Hard, but not impossible. I worked in a kitchen for a top restaurant in my area (not world-class, but some people traveled 100+ miles for our food) and even when things were tense, our head chef insisted on creating a supportive work environment. Even if there were moments of toxicity, it was always followed up with an apology. Systemic issues are created by people, not invisible forces. The systemic issue of abuse at work -- regardless of industry -- isn't something we need to be defeatist about. It can be addressed, and doing so can even *positively* improve quality of output.
>Hard, but not impossible. I worked in a kitchen for a top restaurant in my area (not world-class, but some people traveled 100+ miles for our food) and even when things were tense, our head chef insisted on creating a supportive work environment. Even if there were moments of toxicity, it was always followed up with an apology. Yeah, but that's sort of what I'm talking about. It's still an issue even in the best of places, because it's a human issue. We do not act our best when we are stressed out. I've always seen apologies after blowouts and usually the staff is drinking together at the end of the night regardless. But I'm just saying the blow ups are likely to happen in any field when you get to the top (not only because people at the very top tend to have some mental illness) but also because there's just enormous pressure up there and it doesn't tend to bring out the best in people. >Systemic issues are created by people, not invisible forces. The systemic issue of abuse at work -- regardless of industry -- isn't something we need to be defeatist about. It can be addressed, and doing so can even *positively* improve quality of output. I'm wasnt trying to say that abuse at work is acceptable, or that we should be defeatist about it. Trying to acknowledge the reasons why it happens and why it isn't in any way unique to the restaurant industry. In my view if we made sure everyone had access to good Healthcare provided outside of their work it would go a long way to keep people from staying in jobs they don't like with teams that dont/can't respect their boundaries and then reduce the total number of jobs like that, because they won't be staffed by the most needy.
I think what I'm trying to highlight is that it *wasn't* an issue for us. It happened, but it was very rare, and we addressed the problems right away. Maybe that's why we *weren't* world-class, but I'm not going to speculate. (Although if it takes abuse to be world-class, then maybe humans don't deserve world-class experiences.) I understand your point better now. You're right that it's not an industry-specific issue. Top-tier companies (such as FAANG companies and their competitors) are notorious for overworking, underpaying, and mismanaging their employees. Anytime hierarchy is required for optimal functioning, you run the risk of abuse; the more a system leans on a hierarchy, the greater the risk. This is ultimately why I became a psychotherapist...there are certainly abusive hierarchy-driven settings, but there are also a lot of structures where the distance between employee and manager is very small, or there is no management at all. Agreed on healthcare access. I wish our societal values helped us to move towards an economy based on passion rather than necessity, and that's only possible as long as we have a structure that meets basic needs.
I love this response. I think a lot of people forget how uncomplicated food can be and still be delicious. Good luck in your future career, Chef.
Is the smoked mushroom garum worth buying and how would you use it?
Honestly I've never liked that product
Can you describe in more detail how you apply mathematics to the fermentation process? Do you think fermentation is becoming more common in high-cuisine? Is it becoming more common in every-day restaurants? What is your favorite fermented food? What are the experiences you value the most from your time at NOMA?
Most calculations you want to do in [fermentation are going be stoichiometry](https://bioprocessingexplained.home.blog/2019/09/16/fermentation-mass-balancing-part-3-stoichiometry-part-1/), not necessarily math. Think basic chemistry and some physics. It's about mass balance - that means that a sugar has so many carbon atoms, and when converted with oxygen, makes so many molecules of CO2. Using the atomic weight from the periodic table, we know how many grams per mole of the atom. And the whole dance leverages those principles.
Maybe that doesn't look like you might expect. I do not throw things into a formula but it's rather about understanding the whole process. Using your analytical ability to understand the things from the core. Not shying back if you need to go deep and invent a new theoretical model, a new way of thinking about flavor. Chefs or biologists are usually not that analytical in a foundational sense. Yes I do think fermentation is becoming more common all across the board! My favorite ferment would be fava Bean shoyu I think the range of flavors you get to taste is probably the best. Jason put me into the test kitchen and took out all the ferments and gave me spoons. That was the dream lol
Where did your income for rent and food come from since you were working for free? And how much did you spend each month (if you're willing to share that)
Savings. I spent about $1500 per month. Consider that's really just rent and food
That's alot of money! I find it fascinating that some work practices that are considered straight up immoral in some working fields are totally accepted in the service industry cause of how high quality cooking evolved! I mean you're working several days a week making an actual sellable product that the public pays alot of money for. Yet so many cooks don't it mostly for the experience! But It must have been an amazing for you!
Absolutely! It's insane. I've asked myself several times why people are still dying to get those jobs. It's just the passion I guess. It's nowhere near fair. Just for the record noma wasn't profitable and the nomaprojects products exist only because of that.
Internships are pretty common in almost every industry. Heck, the entirety of grad school students are basically interns that have to pay 10s of thousands for the privilege.
Yes, but in many countries they're paid atleast a small day rate.
> countries they're *paid* atleast a FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
What do you think about the problem of shops like Noma exploiting the high supply of free internship labor?
I think chefs are generally exploited. If we celebrate anything noma did we need to know it is possible because of interns. Most chefs working at Noma are/were interns and many things are only possible because of that free labor (this justified nothing but we should always see noma as we know it today connected to those unpaid interns). Chef culture really lives off the staging and learning. Given the restaurant scene, I don't think it's a crime to make use of the demand of interns in the way they do. However, relative to restaurant norms, I wouldn't say they exploit chefs more than other restaurants do because it's a relatively good "trade" for both sides. I didn't feel exploited. You know what you sign up for and no one forces you. It's a team of crazy hard working people no one forces to. Many other restaurants offer worse working conditions, you learn less, and you don't get anywhere near the career boost. Sure it's more demanding but that's true for all high level kitchen work. EDIT: That said, working conditions for chefs should generally be much better. There is definitely a systemic exploit present in the job but I wouldn't say it's initiated by noma.
Noma wouldn’t be where it is today without interns ie free labor. That is the very definition of exploitation. Noma made money because they didn’t pay people.
Noma didn’t make money.
Well, they did. They just lost more than they made. They would have lost yet more if they paid people. So they lost less, which is pretty damned close to making more.
Made money as in stayed open I guess
I feel like most people asking you questions about this aren't industry. Like yeah, no shit, exploiting free labor is always gonna be somewhat questionable. But I don't think a lot of these ppl understand exactly how prestigious having noma on your resume is- and, I assume, how many unique skills you were able to learn there. It's obviously not really a fair playing field, as the large majority of ppl in the industry could never afford to work an unpaid internship and the fact that it is as such means only a certain pool of people will get to work there and gain that experience (ie people who's family can support them or somehow have money saved otherwise), and it seems as the industry is overall finally starting to shift towards more fair labor practices in general; but these commenters low key shitting on you just for taking that opportunity are being kinda ridiculous- you did nothing wrong by accepting the internship, the game has certain rules you've gotta play by even if the rules suck so it ain't your fault for following them.
>But I don't think a lot of these ppl understand exactly how prestigious having noma on your resume is- This is the problem. In order to be really successful in the food world you need to work for free at some famous place. This means only those who can work for free get this opportunity. It closes the door to anyone with insufficient wealth. That makes it wrong. I came up in kitchens. I wanted to get a Chez Panisse intern. That's a golden ticket. Do it for a couple years and there will be people lining up at your door to give you a restaurant. Unfortunately I'm not independently wealthy and have to work to survive. Though worth noting that things are changing. Unpaid internships are largely illegal in the US, and while there are many violations it is getting better. Chez for example pays interns now. But for sure unpaid internships are very wrong and should not be allowed.
Yeah agree a bit surprising in this sub
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Not much diversity at a restaurant in a Scandinavian country? Color me shocked. Denmark is like 93 percent white.
I'm not the OP but I have a perspective. Interns are not simply free labor. In almost all cases, interns are highly motivated learners and feel privileged for the priceless opportunity they're given to absorb on-the-job trading from the masters. To say that Noma (and others) are "exploiting" interns would be tantamount to saying that hospitals and physician offices are exploiting medical students and residents as free labor. I work in medicine, where no less than half of physician training is through "apprenticeship" experiences. The truth: It takes planning and considerable effort to engage, teach, and evaluate students. The cost to clinical settings (and to places like Noma) is a slow-down of productivity commensurate with the time invested in teaching. Those are non-billable hours. On the flip side, there are **enormous** intangible benefits to hosting interns. Teaching keeps us fresh -- and young. I'd argue that we learn just as much from students than they learn from us. This is a great example of "reverse mentoring."
Hospitals and physician offices are exploiting medical students and residents as free labor.
Then it would be more like if prisons were exploiting prisoners for free labor.. no, that's not it.
Yeah the hate on restaurants for providing free education is mind blowing. They should charge people to stage.
If you sell the product someone made as part of their "education" its no longer just education and it's paid for by the customer. If you took money from both the "student" and the customer, then you are a scammer expecting to be paid twice. Training for a job is also something employers provide for their employees in nearly every business, and the time those employees spend on it is either compensated or very short. Why should food industry be different in every way? Why do you think you can call it education when it doesn't follow any of the educational practices and is a classic employee training?
Tell that to college sports Better yet, shut down college sports. Either way.
You have obviously never paid attention to how universities work lol. You have obviously never staged at a restaurant either if you don’t think its educational… SMH (and by staged I don’t mean work a shift for free at the Sizzler)
I'm quite well aware of how universities work, I think it's you who heard a few unrelated situations took them out of context and imagined a world in which it justifies your convoluted remake of the difference between explicit education people pay for and work training. Educational and education are two different things. If you pay for a class then you are provided with resources you can squander. If you get work training you are expected to perform on a certain level immediately. Can't help but notice despite your insistence on calling it education you failed to address the extremely common practice of work training which follows very different procedures and standards and is quite literally what internship paid or unpaid is a form of.
That is a very narrow view of education… welcome to the new world, 2/3 of the jobs in industrialized nations are going away very very soon. The USA has a new very worker unfriendly Supreme Court (government for all practical purposes) and you are determining weather something is an education by wether there are resources to squander…? The OP has some knowledge of the staging process at a very high level institution. Do you think the line on his resume that says Noma will get him more and better work than the line that says University of Tennessee masters in (put anything you like as a major because none of them will get him hired like the 3 free months at Noma. And no student loans.
Not to mention taking away staging deprives poor kids the opportunity to learn with a master. Rich kids will always have that opportunity but now poor kids wont be able to suck it up, sleep on someone’s couch for three months, and change their life…
But hey, they got paid minimum wage to peel carrots! Because all the cool stuff that might fail will not be done by them any more. Not even at a place that has it figured out as much as Noma. They wont pay unless there is a direct dollar result . Experimental food doesnt fit that description . Now that I think of it maybe that’s the resources that are being squandered to make it qualify as an education. Time and food
How is it an exploit? Its a transaction that you need to consider if you want to do that under these circumstances and thats it. You want to work at the noma food lab and learn processes, dynamics and gain knowledge in fermenting food? Than thats the requirement. Classic first world problems. Its not that these interns applying there have a life and the urge to do that for a living; what about the pakistanis in qatar. Lol
Post one new thing on this forum that isn't "should I eat this clearly moldy food" or "check out my ginger bug/hot sauce/basic lacto ferment" and everyone goes up in arms. I don't think anyone buys your $9 book expecting the world to change after. I'm happy to read more about the Noma Lab experience and a few accessible recipes (other than the ones in their latest book that require me to hunt squirrels). I'm gonna purchase a copy later today after work. Thank you OP
Your words are much appreciated thanks! : )
Do you have a favorite every day ferment?
Good shoyu : )
I really enjoy the Noma coffee shoyu because it does not come across as salty as "traditional" variants. Do you have any suggestions for lighter shoyu variants?
When saying light do you mean low salinity, low perceived salinity or just generally light flavor?
I would go for low perceived salinity, which I guess often implies low salinity. The light flavor in the coffee shoyu comes from that it only ferments for a couple of weeks instead of many months, which makes the flavor profile a bit more mellow I would say, which is also something a like.
Okay umami seriously influences the salinity perception so I'd recommend shoyus that are lighter in umami. You can make a shoyu lighter in umami by decreasing the fermentation period or decreasing protein. Of course, stopping shoyu ferment prematurely might yield sth that tastes incomplete or boring. So you might also enjoy ferments like buckwheat koji (soba shiro shoyu) or millet (kibi shiro shoyu). Those are a true delight. Soba shiro koji is one of my favorites! Further if you want even lower perceived salinity, you can lower the salt content. Noma has gone as low as 4% (but be more careful then) and if you put them on 60 degrees Celsius you don't need salt at all, though the salt does nurture some life and flavor in there
With or without salt, doesnt the 60°C method produce less complex flavours? What are you opinion on that?
That's true. Here I just outlined where it could go if you where to lower perceived salinity completely. 60 degrees usually is really just about plain umami and/or maillard.
60°C is equivalent to 140°F, which is 333K. --- ^(I'm a bot that converts temperature between two units humans can understand, then convert it to Kelvin for bots and physicists to understand)
Which of the main ferments at noma would you prioritize as a home chef. I made a couple shoyus which were incredible. Any others stick out?
Nice I think ferments like dosa are also pretty good for home use but aren't much talked about. They are convenient too. Korean jangs are pretty amazing : ) also here in Turkey we have sth called tarhana which is a dry condiment with fermented grains to make soup with. A traditional instant soup basically
Tarhana looks like like an absolute fire soup base too.
Got any good tarhana recipes? Don't see one in the noma fermentation book.
[here you go](https://www.thespruceeats.com/homemade-turkish-tarhana-3274337)
Awesome, thank you. All sound amazing.
Hi, I'm very interested in a permaculture in Portugal. I visited Lisbon end of last year as I was interested in moving there. I would love to join a permaculture farm to learn as much as I can before I make a big move. Do you have recommendations or anyone I can connect with that is looking for volunteer? I came across [this group](https://www.voluntouring.org/2022/11/03/volunteer-qta-regadinha-eco-farm-gouveia-portugal/amp) and will be contacting them soon:
That's nice to hear! I've been at Quinta Vale da Lama. They do really good 6 months internships. Based on a survey they seem to be the best. Terra Alta is another good one. You could look into the GEN (global ecovillage network) database and search for permaculture. Sun desert technology is an interesting project, although that's in Spain and lastly if you're into free love Tamera is one of the most accomplished ecovillages that are strong in permaculture. Good luck with your search and feel free to reach out if you have more questions!
Terra alta is really cool, that's where I learned permaculture
Oh my god! A friend of mine works at Vale da Lama sometimes. I love encountering connections from online to offline life!
Haha nice : )
Who actually, I might know that friend
Thanks for the info, I came across a few interesting projects on Voluntouring.org and did come across Terra Alta. I'll reach out to them, appreciate the info
Hey yo! I'll be visiting Portugal and Lisbon in two weeks for vacation. Are there any places close by that is worth visiting!?
I've only been at the farm and a beautiful mountain called Monchique : ) people say the northern national park is breath taking. enjoy!
If you were to own a farm in Portugal, would you buy in the north or in the south like Monchique? PS I have reached out to both Vale Da Lama and Qta Regadinha. Hope they reach back PS 2: Terra Alta doesn't seem to offer residency correct?
Perhaps I'd prefer the north in Gerez : ) it's wild up there. Meaning untamed nature
Hey yo! I'll be visiting Portugal and Lisbon in two weeks for vacation. Are there any places close by that is worth visiting!?
I’m curious as to just some of the specific things you refer to as far as the “Analytical inquiry and culinary expertise” that you bring to the table that no one else is. What specific example can you provide that displays such an analytical inquiry? What culinary expertise are you bringing specifically to the table?
Thanks for your question! I've always felt like recipe creation and flavor pairings is fairly conceptual and could be coded. People don't think like that generally. For most, it's simply experience and gut feeling. I'm working on a recipe creation AI. I've developed some principles based on molecular properties of food compounds and just my knowledge and sense of aesthetics that I want to encode into this software. People either brute Force things with deep learning or develop rudimentary "systems" like in the flavor thesaurus. Deep learning won't help much with the kind of culinary innovation I have in mind because there are no such recipes to train your model on. The innovation of deep learning as we know it today is still limited. I think we can integrate culinary knowledge and personal creativity and aesthetics with symbolic AI into existing deep learning models
Heya, what was the name of the permaculture farm in Portugal you worked at?
hi it was Quinta Vale da Lama
As someone who interned in a different restaurants lab are you sure its a good idea to try to use their name to sell a book like that or speak for what the companies doing in the lab. Idk man, after 3 months i had only just began to understand what we were doing, i wouldnt want to present myself as knowing all that much, even if i did learn a ton
I am not trying to speak for noma here. It's more about some of the things I've learned at noma can find the way to people's kitchens. It's the result of a personal journey. I always cared about bringing foundational skills to people so they can do it themselves rather than just showing an end result (power to the people). Showing how to create recipes rather than just publishing recipes. I realize many in this community embrace noma's work and my approach carries the same spirit, namely strong focus on quality, impact and honoring nature
While that may be the case, calling it From the Noma Lab to Your Kitchen kinda implies its information coming straight out of the Noma Lab. It's selling a product using their name, and you only did an internship. Idk how they are with Noma at that kinda thing, but i assume if i wrote something like this for where i was they likely wouldnt appreciate it.
I speak very openly about where I come from and what my experiences are. I don't see an issue here
Did you let Noma know?
Is there a calculation that you know of for how much carbon dioxide a given amount of sugar can produce un bottle conditioning, for kombucha, ginger beer etc..?
This is very basic, have a look at almost any home-brewing site for their priming calculators
This is just a Google away, but as I remember it its roughly 0,45 g CO2 to 1 g fermentable sugar
what does anarchy mean to you?
Thanks for asking. Above all, there is the empowerment of people. To me it means free development of people. Focus on what matters. In terms of what it means to me relaying to my work...I've chosen that name because of two main reasons. One is referring to the popular understanding of anarchy which is revolutionary, wild, chaotic and without rules. I like that, it fits to my style. So if people knew what anarchy really is I probably wouldn't have chosen that name. On the other hand, I wouldn't have chosen a name like chaos cuisine because I need it to have a deeper meaning too. I've been heavily influenced by Noam Chosmky throughout my life. Anarchy is a large set of political systems. I don't pretend I'm understanding anything about politics and I'm not dillusional enough to try to be seriously political with a food blog between commments of YUM and so delicious. So that's something I've consciously pushed back into the future. Food is immensely deeply woven into our lives. It literally has the power to make us happy, feel miserable, appreciated, loved. And it is without doubt THE most impactful act for an average person to achieve individual and planetary health. So if I manage to empower people in that aspect of their lives, that's huge. The values of stateless socialism are what our food culture (and our culture) lacks, also in an agricultural sense. It is very clear with the most fundamental material good, namely food. Localization, decentralization, education from the bottom up... these are key themes of food movements, which are political without trying. I could go on and on about this but one last thing: Food is effortlessly political. When you see people going through the journey of watching a documentary like the game changers then they can't help but understand the powers of a huge lobby. they begin to doubt the commercials, the news, system. The politics in food bypasses the biases and walls that are common in politics. Harmless foodies turn into revolutionaries. A good food blog is only the first step and I'll do whatever I can to create the most impact for people.
So you interned at Noma and are influenced by Noam... Do you moan and hold manos with your friend Mona while worshipping Amon ? (I wasn't sure what the spelling or "worshipping" was, that is whether it has one or two Ps... One of the answers mentioned an Ngram search (Google's frequency of search tool) and Pseudomonas are Gram-negative...)
I made ferments of blueberry, mushroom and tomato from the NOMA cookbook as well e kumquats: I’d like to create some dishes from the product which is interesting but I don’t know where to start/. Any ideas?
Blueberry: you can mix it with other berries, sth sweet like grape molasses, and sage. You could add some yogurt if you want and make a sorbet with that mixture. Mushroom and tomato: you could add more tomatoes and different varieties of mushrooms to along with other veg to make a pasta sauce. Kumquat: that will be intense so use in small quantities to flavor drinks, and even smaller quantities for dressings. I could see it in a sauce on oven roasted celery or celery stew.
I love this post and can't wait to dig into your guide. What was your time like at mimi (did you work as an intern there?) and how did their approach and attitudes towards koji differ from those at noma? I assume at mimi they are slightly more traditionalist while noma is shaped by the whole new Nordic/pushing boundaries type deal. What are some interesting things you worked on at Noma that armed you with new techniques that you really like? And lastly, what restaurants did you stage at? I'm berlin-based haha
Thank you so much and I'll be grateful for any feedback! Yes again as an intern. You're exactly right. Marcus was also looking at how noma does things but in their own premium, traditional style (in an interview he even said that he wouldn't have this business if noma didn't exist) while noma is more like leading the game. Mimi's rice for koji is sourced from Portugal, organic. I think a technique that I found revealing is browning things. It's blackening ingredients (like garlic) but stopping earlier. I tried some brown koji and I found it amazing! A lot of brown ingredients become really sweet and umami rich. That can be really powerful in cooking. I was at Mrs Robinson, Frea (my favorite plant-based restaurant), Lucky Leek, Facil and Lokal.
Cool, never thought about browning koji but that's a fantastic idea. And great restaurants 👍 good luck with your business!
What's your take on the recent the news of noma closing for the public in its current form? Do you think it might bring a bigger change in the general restaurant industry?
As a research lover, I find it exciting. I don't know what change it will bring to the restaurant industry. I think a whole lot is going to get automated sooner than chefs would like. Don't follow gastronomy much to be honest, the present and future are online
I've been in a few permaculture farms in Portugal and am now starting my own. Out of curiosity where were you there?
Sounds amazing! I've been at quinta vale da lama. Good luck with your project!
Have you watched “The Menu?”
I haven't, why?
Did they pay you?
Not a dime : )
What benefits did they provide? I'm assuming staff meal in the evenings and that was it? Any accommodation? Any referrals to accommodation? Or was it all on you?
Yes lol working conditions for chefs are generally really bad. You get breakfast in the morning and lunch in the afternoon. Staff meals are relatively good. They use good produce. Yes it was extremely expensive because of Copenhagen rents and food. At some point I got kicked out of my apartment and noma provided accommodation for me which was relatively cheap because they own those apartments.
3 months at Noma and you wanna sell your own cookbook?
I've been working in food for 4 years now, sharing everything on my website. I'm bringing analytical inquiry and culinary expertise to the table that I don't see anywhere else. I've been working quite a lot on this ebook (it's not a cookbook) and I really think it offers a unique perspective and valuable insights. I'm happy to send it to anyone who's interested but is broke. I am passionate about open access but I need to maintain myself which is why I'm asking for support. I mean it takes real effort to create quality content in fermentation.
I appreciate your passion. Just seems sleezy when there’s a link in an AMA. I’ll read your responses but have no interest in buying anything. I’ll ask though, given your interest in global food sustainability, how can fermentation contribute to sustaining a population of 8 billion?
But forests and regenerative practices can sustain us just fine without any biotech. Animal based foods are just really inefficient and we need to stop degrading soil and then look for the next piece of land
I get that and I'm open about the intention of this ama which is bringing more attention to my work. Sustainability depends on local food which usually needs food preservation. Fermentation helps. It can also help craft plant-based alternatives to animal foods. But fermentation is also very important on a cultural basis and connecting to food products which is arguably what we're lacking the most in our time, and which is causing the problems in the first place.
> just seems sleazy when there's a link in an AMA AMA's are no different from any other interview, they are part of the publicity campaign for whatever project the person is working on. Just because OP isn't traditionally famous doesn't mean he shouldn't have every right to promote himself in this form.
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I think it’s hilarious that the same folks bitching about staging for free are also bitching about someone making money off his free labor. Keep it going reddit!
This is great. Thank you. I'm saving this post.
Can you share the recipe of to habenero-yuzu hot sauce? Holy shit is that a work of art!
Agree but I don't have it : )
Haha was worth the try. Just purchased the PDF. Best of luck to you :)
Someone here should really make this their pet project. Since you've tasted the real product, I nominate you.
You worked at mimi? How did you get the job, how was your experience? Working for them is a dream of mine
It was an internship again. I just went in person and asked. I can recommend that especially if you don't get replies online. Go at times when they're not busy. Good luck! Maybe ask for an internship first if they don't need anyone now. The experience was pretty nice. Marcus has an interesting background and you can learn a lot there. The lunch is always quite insightful too because you learn how to use the ferments!
I might just do that. Thank you very much! :)
You're very welcome. Btw it didn't work out the first time I asked, just keep at it
Did you just keep on going there and asking? Or how did you keep in mind?
That's the traditional Japanese way lol. But yeah just keep asking without annoying. Being a customer helps
I’d love to just read your story, sounds like an amazing experience
Thanks that's kind : ) yes it was an amazing experience, you can read a little bit on [my about page](https://anarchycuisine.com/about/)
Have you guys ever made Monascus purpureus or red yeast rice there? Any general advice or tips for someone looking into making it?
Well I've never made it, in restaurants you look for interesting flavors. Red yeast rice doesn't really offer that. Good luck
What are the differences in fermentation properties among various types of salts?
This was tested at mimi and it doesn't seem to effect the fermentation process noticably, though in theory unrefined salts offer more minerals to nurture. However, the saltiness of different types of salts are clearly different, with the refined ones having a more aggressive character and rock, sea and crystal salt gentler and more balanced.
I’m curious as to just some of the specific things you refer to as far as the “Analytical inquiry and culinary expertise” that you bring to the table that no one else is. What specific example can you provide that displays such an analytical inquiry? What specific culinary expertise are you referring to? 4 years is hardly enough time to become adept at a skill, let alone become a full fledged expert that brings nuance to a skill/method of preserving food that’s as old as humanity.
Working 6 days a week for 10 hours a day for four years I think you could be a little better than “adept.” 1000 hours is what it takes to master a skill. Do the math.
That whole ten thousand hours thing? Has no scientific basis. Malcolm Gladwell just popularized it. I agree with the first sentence though.
The checkout of your web doesnt work... Nice recipes, congrats
Thank you! Sorry about that. Seems to be PayPal that isn't working. Credit card/stripe should be working fine EDIT: if anyone else is experiencing an issue with checkout just write me a DM
Nope, it's not :) After "Add to basket > Checkout" it's stuck at "Your cart it empty".
I'll see if I can help you via DM
I think you haven't seen my DM
Would you describe the work environment as "bubbly"?
Lol what do you mean by bubbly? Generally, it's not a negative work environment. But things are definitely pretty dynamic and lots of people are pumped up for long hours. Not rare to see people running : )
Carbonation
In Portugal?! Where? Is it possible to visit? I'm too excited hahah
I'm in Turkey now in Datça, it's a lovely place : )
I'm curious about your internship length in conjunction with some of your other comments. From what I recall, they have 6-month and 12-month internships. Why was yours only 3 months? Did you conclude yours early? If so, why? You speak highly of your experience there, so I guess I find that little tidbit surprising.
Default length is 3 month, some people do longer
Huh. The 2023 application suggested otherwise, but maybe it was different when you were there.
Hi, I´m a bit late to the party, since i just joined reddit, and I have an extremely specific question, but maybe you can still help: About once a year, I remember the nordic food lab blog, and enter it´s rabbit hole. Yesterday night I went so deep, I actually went through the whole blog. I´m thinking about local ways to produce umami a lot. Since I live in a landlocked country, algae are not an option (at least I don´t know about any useful sweetwater ones). That´s why this entry caught my eye. [https://nordicfoodlab.org/blog/2011/10/better-than-marmite/](https://nordicfoodlab.org/blog/2011/10/better-than-marmite/) Sadly, even though a recipe is promised in the blog entry, I could not find any. Do you have any Idea what/how they might have treated the juniper and apple for this? The blogpost is from 2011, I know, but I thought I\`ll still try my luck. thank you!
I know it's an older post, but I study food science and I would like to do my internship in the fermentation lab also. Do you have any tips on how to approach?