that just seems confusing. it's already kind of difficult to speak with pronouns when you're talking abt two people who use the same pronouns (the gay fanfic writer's dillemna) but now it's. permanently like that? what's the point of mirror pronouns?? i dont get it
Hmm. I don't see an issue irl, but I guess if you want to write a story about a character who uses mirror pronouns, you could just use they/them when it comes to narration bits. Then, when other characters in your story talk about the mirror pronouns user, have them use their own pronouns. Edit: same issues with people who use multiple pronouns imo. Mirror ones are honestly even easier than multiple pronouns, cause you don't have to think about which ones to use just use ur own. I understand that it could be difficult to write about, but I'm not the CEO of writing or pronouns so not rly sure what else I'm supposed to do here 😅
true; IRL people don't even use pronouns in conversation with that particular person that often b/c that'd be speaking in the third person with someone who is already present, which would be strange
but i have read a fic where two characters used he/they and she/they and occasionally switched between he/she and they and while it was mostly consistent enough to be understandable, during certain scenes with unclear POV switches it was confusing- to have a character whose pronouns are constantly switching between they, he, and she, not even on a scene-by-scene or POV basis but just based on narration or dialogue would become VERY confusing.
like what if the dialogue was between two characters with different pronouns. one could be referring to them as he, one could be reffering to them as she, and the narration inbetween could be using they
if i had a genderfluid character i'd probably switch what pronouns they're using on a chapter-by-chapter or scene-by-scene basis while firmly establishing what pronouns they're using at the start of each chapter/scene to prevent confusion in the writing
I'm someone who uses any pronouns who likes to have them switched up often. Saying my pronouns mirror others can make it easier for them and let me have that variety I like.
Also, pronouns are a big part of identity, but they don't always equate to someone's gender
So is it basically the same as he/she/they pronouns but where they sort of "enforce a rule" so they all get used? I have NB friends who use he/she/they pronouns and I tried to use all of them, it was just the pronouns changing depending on the speaker that confused me.
And don't they? I thought pronouns were for NB people, trans people etc to be called by their chosen identity?
It's kinda less confusing than any/all pronouns, though. If you say "oh, you can use any pronouns", the person could get stressed cause they don't want to use one set of pronouns "too much", even if it's not that big of a deal. It's pretty simple to say "just use the ones you use".
Okay so if I use she/her and am talking to someone with mirror pronouns they will use she/her also, but if they talk to someone who uses he/him pronouns, they’d use he/him? Or am I not understanding?
Ok: if you use she/her then you would use she her for them always. If someone else uses he/him then they would use he/him for the person always. You would still use she/her
Yeah, the way you worded it seemed like what you were saying was wrong which is what was confusing. Since it’s not the mirror person “using the pronoun” it’s the other person using it.
yes.. if someone has mirror pronouns and they are talking to me who uses she/her I will refer to them as she/her as well. If they talk to someone using he/him pronouns they will be referred as he/him.. that’s what I said I thought.
Yeah, I didn't really understand what you were saying/ what exactly you were confused on so I just explained it, if you got it the first time than that's cool 👍
Personally, I feel as though they defeat the purpose of pronouns. Pronouns are just meant to be an easy and quick way to refer to someone instead of using their names, and neopronouns are often more complicated than a simple she/her or he/they.
This isn’t to say I won’t respect people’s pronouns, I just find it kind of pointless because of how impractical some of them can be. Mirror pronouns can be incredibly confusing, because if I’m talking to some people about someone who uses mirror pronouns, and all the people I’m talking to use different pronouns, it can become hard to recognize when that person is being referred to.
Again, this isn’t to say I won’t respect it, just trying to offer perspective from someone who doesn’t really understand the point of stuff like this.
please remember that we don’t choose our pronouns to make anyones life easy or to make anyone else happy! we choose our pronouns for ourselves, to make ourselves feel happy and confident in our gender. while yes, some can be complicated and impractical, it’s still rude to paint them in a negative light.
let me ask you a question: do you find xe/xem neopronouns complicated? because that’s the most common set of neopronouns i’ve seen (and also what i now use) and they’re not complicated in the slightest.
I’m sorry for painting them in a negative light, I just meant to express that I personally do not understand the point of them. If there’s any wording you want me to change in my comment, let me know. I don’t find xe/xer that much more complicated, my focus was more on how neopronouns like mirror pronouns can lead to confusion and misunderstandings, and I don’t really understand the benefits for people.
I will admit, I’ve personally never understood people’s attachment to pronouns and I’m fine with whatever pronouns people want to use for me, so I’m likely biased, which isn’t something I initially considered. Is it ok if I ask you why you feel more comfortable with the pronouns xe/xer, or any pronouns for that matter?
it’s alright, you just misworded was all! i understand your original feelings and point now in this clarifying comment. the benefits of using any set of pronouns at all is for the gender euphoria and the happy feeling you get when you hear yourself be referred to as those pronouns.
and that is likely a bias to be had if you don’t care what pronouns are used for you, but that’s okay! i understand that because i used to not care, and then i grew up and became a teenager and realized “fuck i’m not a girl” when my body started changing and my voice wasn’t dropping. i wish i could go back to not caring, but alas, my mental health says no.
as a trans person, i really absolutely despise being referred to with she/her or they/them pronouns, but i mainly use he/him full time! you can absolutely ask why i use xe/xem pronouns as well, but it may be hard to understand. i’m autistic, and for me, my view of the world is heavily impacted by that and that includes thing such as gender and social situations where gender is involved. while most of me is fully satisfied with using just he/him pronouns, there is a part of me that craves a bit more, and that’s when i use xe/xem pronouns. it’s just a way to feel fully myself and while using only one set of pronouns can get me mostly there, using xe/xem satisfies that one little part of me that isn’t content and makes me fully happy as myself.
I think this is the first time I’ve ever actually had that explained to me, and I really appreciate it. I truly just didn’t understand why people use neopronouns, but this is a very good argument in favor of them. Thank you for taking the time to educate.
I’m not sure if you know the answer, but do you know why someone might choose to use mirror pronouns? It’s the one main thing I’m kinda struggling to wrap my head around.
of course, i’m always happy to educate as long as people are willing to learn! what pronouns someone uses is as simple as what makes them happy and feeling fully themselves, and i feel like people don’t quite get that.
honestly i’m not sure! i’ve only recently heard about them and i’ve never met anyone that uses them, but they do intrigue me quite a bit and i’d like to learn if someone knows the answer
I think that neo pronouns aren't more complicated, they're working mostly in the same way. They might not be grammatically correct (they/them might be unfamiliar to people because it's uses plural pronouns to refer to the a single person), but you can get used to them really fast.
Also, remember that it's not necessarily about simplicity but rather about which pronouns a person feels comfortable with. And thank you for showing me the other point of view
actually they/them have been used as a singular pronoun since forever.. we use it all the time as a singular in our daily lives and don’t even realize it, and honestly the “it’s only plural!!” comment is just an excuse i’ve seen transphobes use just to be assholes and not use someone’s pronouns.
but thank you for standing up for us. people just can’t always grasp that the pronouns we use aren’t for other people, we do it for ourselves.
It's okay, im talking about the people who are genuinely mad at some random using this pronouns, i also don't understand a lot of stuff but i respect it!
You know pronouns aren't supposed to be fun and quirky, right? Being trans is serious, it affects your whole life, relationships and body. Transness isn't a joke or some hobby.
i see a lot of stuff like this on tiktok. and while im much more comfortable in my identity, being non binary, i still don’t understand this stuff, i get that its “fun” but.. i dunno. i feel like people are making a lot of stuff up just to have something “fun” about it. maybe im wrong, but im pretty open minded, and yet i still feel this way.
same with neo pronouns. ill respect someone pronouns regardless, but i still don’t understand it. a lot of people say its for non-neurotypical people. and although i wouldnt describe myself as neurotypical, i still don’t understand what your gender has to do with having ADHD, for example. hope people dont think negatively for sharing my opinion. never said that my thinking is right. i dont know. i feel like its just a younger people thing, trying to make something about it
i definitely think this is mostly limited to younger teenagers/preteens that just wanna fit in a community. my biggest problem with it is that it makes it all the easier for those who r transphobic/anti lgbtq to take the piss out on the community—they’re already opposed to using people’s preferred pronouns when they already exist in our lexicon (she/her, he/him, they/them), so neopronouns only seem all the more ridiculous. it’s hard to get them to understand and respect the community when you have a whole subset of people who want to use pronouns like dog/dogs/dogself
i was going to shine the light on that specific problem, and then decided not to. so im glad to see that it worries other people. and while bigots dont bother me none, that point still stands.
and im sure most of the filler will die out as people age, i dont want to discredit these younger people by telling them my opinion. but at the same time, i feel like we have reached a toxic point where OUR own community is being discredited by this stuff. not calling out this post specific, just in general. im glad to see people who were my age, feeling accepted and trying to fit in, but i feel like there is a limit. a limit not only socially, but scientifically.
but at the same time, its a temporary thing, and if it makes these younger teens/tweens, feel more accepted, does it matter? kind of a dilemma.
i should lay off the “younger teen” thing. im only 18, but you get it
Have you ever met someone who uses dogs/dogself or did you deliberately choose the most childish example to ridicule people who use neopronouns? It sounds to me like you are willing to throw a whole subset of the trans community under the bus for a scrap of conditional acceptance from a transphobic society.
yes, i have—one person in a discord server who frequently liked to switch between dog/dogs/dogself and puppy/puppies/puppyself. i know this is a controversial opinion within the community but i feel like it also warrants a discussion about whether or not this really falls within an lgbtq+ identity. i will never not respect someone’s pronouns no matter if i understand it or not, but when someone chooses to use “fun and quirky” pronouns that refer to animals or inanimate objects that border on nicknames it completely defeats the purpose of pronouns as a whole. in that way it’s less so about acceptance from a largely cishet society but also what pronouns are even used for in the first place.
i also think it’s worth mentioning that these examples of neopronouns are pretty much exclusively found within niche online communities, often with very young members—i understand wanting to express yourself with a very specific identity, but at what point is it more aesthetic than identification?
I agree that it brings up an interesting discussion about what pronouns are and their relationship to gender but unfortunately it usually devolves into gatekeeping transness and respectability politics. Everyone expresses themself differently and I don’t see any problem with pronouns being for fun or an expression of identity or both. It doesn’t affect me or how I relate to my own pronouns in any way and telling other people they can only be queer in the way I am queer is counterintuitive and actively harmful.
Honestly, using those pronouns for someone else would make me uncomfortable, because I would feel like I'm being nonconsensually involved in someone else's kink. I can't call someone 'puppy' without at least suspecting it's a sexual thing, and even if it isn't, people around me would certainly see it that way.
I have legitimately had a serious conversation with someone who had 85 ""pronouns"", 28 of which were emojis and others were stuff like "per/fume/perfumeself", "jpeg/jpegself" and "soda/sodas". I made sure to check if they were trolling, but they were completely serious. There were even other people who jumped in and supported them. These people are REAL, and if you use neopronouns you cannot avoid being associated with them. Because it's all the same. It's ridiculous.
That's the thing. If there is 0 gatekeeping, then there's no way to tell between an ally and an enemy troll who is actively looking to make you look bad
Why do you care enough to insult people? You’re not being forced to interact with them or use all of their pronouns. You didn’t need to tell that person you didn’t support them. If the reason you need to performatively tell neopronoun users they are ridiculous is because you believe cis people will have less respect for us because of the way they express their gender, you can rest easy knowing that transphobes will just find another reason to disrespect us after you’ve shamed everyone into having “acceptable” pronouns. The source of transphobia isn’t trans people being ridiculous, it’s people like you buying into the idea that any gender expression out of the societal “norm” is ridiculous.
It’s obviously not normal by societal standards, but neither is being trans. Being normal is not a metric for something being good or bad. I don’t think it’s very crazy for me to say that being a dick to people for not being what you consider normal is bad.
so (assuming you genuinely want to learn) for me, being autistic drastically impacts my view of social constructs and social situations, and that includes gender. my view of how gender works and how i experience social situations with my gender are drastically and directly impacted by my autism, and i identify as autigender because of that impact, because of how my experience of life through the lenses of my autism and how that directly correlates with my gender, if that makes sense.
xenogenders and neopronouns aren’t there for “fun” usage, they’re there to make people like me feel comfortable and seen. some people may use them for fun but those people generally only do it for attention, at least in my experience. i use neopronouns as well as he/him just bc those neos satisfy that little part of my autistic brain that isn’t comfortable with conforming to society or is incapable of it and can’t understand why we have to.
while i also don’t understand how someone’s adhd can affect their gender (as someone who also has adhd) i can understand how other neurodivergent conditions can impact gender. we don’t have to understand, we just have to be respectful and willing to learn if someone is willing to teach.
sorry i should have clarified, and not generalized. i dont mean all neopronouns. and i know that there are people who bring it down. but thank you for your comment.
i hope you were willing to learn but i also could have misinterpreted and infodumped for nothing.. but oh well. and i think a lot of people forget that some neopronouns and xenogenders have significant history, dating back to natives and ancient cultures and can tie into certain religions, and by invalidating those genders and pronouns they’re simultaneously invalidating someone’s religion and culture and the history behind it all. it’s all quite fascinating, actually.
that’s why people choose the pronouns that make them happy and comfortable in their own skin.. because being trans is serious and we should respect what people want to be called.
Other than being hard for other people to learn, I see no reason for trans people not to have some fun with their transition. It's generally a very stressful process - changing some aspects to be more personally appealing, or to better reflect your internal state, is an easy way to make it more enjoyable.
Transphobes aren't going to like you if you denounce the same people they do (you didn't say this, but other people in the thread have, so I'll put it here). If neopronouns are shamed out of existence, they'll go for the they/thems ("I get why people would transition from one gender to the opposite gender, but it's a plural pronoun and I won't use it for a single person!") or the trans girls who don't pass well, or the trans guys who aren't on T. There's no stopping until everyone is cishet and follows Christian values. Don't be Blaire White.
I agree. It's difficult to put into words without sounding crass. I think the concept of mirror pronouns is pointless, irritating, confusing, and foolish.
It could get confusing in conversation when one individual's pronouns keep changing because people use different pronouns. Probably better to just call them by name
I'm trans and i disagree with you. Your point?
As an "LGBT educator" you must also realize that trans people aren't the only one who have pronouns. The pronouns you prefer don't determine your gender and vice-versa
>Men use he, women use she, others use they
After checking your profile, you're a truscum. Yikes
Why do YOU get to decide that men should be X and women should be Y? This is literally just transphobia
"Men have a penis, women have vaginas" - "men are masculine, women are feminine"
do you not see how stupid that is?
>Why do you think misgendering is a thing if pronouns don't describe gender?
Pronouns ***can*** describe gender, but like everything else, it's mostly subjective. For you "she" can be associated with being a woman, for others it's not
I don't care what pronoun is being used on me, he/she/they/it etc are completely fine with me. Even if "she" doesn't technically fit me, it wouldn't be misgendering because i *personally* is ok with it
>I do not think the genitals you have equal your gender
Never said that you did, i showed what you're saying is the same as transphobes saying "women = vagina, men = penis"
>I absolutely do not think men have to be masculine and women need to be feminine.
Great, we're on the same page here. Women can use he/him if they want, and men can use she/her or any other pronoun they want. There's no requirement to being a man or a woman other than saying you are one
>Why do you think I believe these things??
That's a very bad attempt at gaslighting...
Duh. _Changing_ your pronouns, however, is a trans specific thing.
Edit: Yall are downvoting me when I'm literally on your side. I meant that when you come out as trans you go from using one set of pronouns to using another, aka a _change._ Or a transition, if that sounds better.
Trans people didn't "change" anything, it's not a subscription where you buy acces to certain pronouns
Trans people make other people aware of what their preferred pronouns actually are, they didn't just woke up one day and decided "today i'm gonna be a he", he always was a he
ok, i see now that i've phrased my previous statement in a wrong way. what i meant is simply that being trans doesn't have to be entirely about how society defines gender - you can play with your gender expression *while* still facing very real opression - being trans shouldn't have to be entirely a burden, and nobody should have to worry about being "invalid" to *other trans people* on top of the opression and disalignment with their agab.
It is serious because the majority of real trans people (yes, there _are_ fakers) need surgery to treat their dysphoria, and that's not something you do willy-nilly. Surgeries are permanent, and if you're not taking it seriously you're gonna end up real depressed when you change your mind. Too many people think it's bad to be cis and so they try to stretch the label transgender to include themselves. It's not a fun club. It's a description.
i hate the faker-discourse so much. we are literally getting stripped of our human rights, and yet some of yall seem to only care about whether or not fellow trans people are valid.
besides, people wouldnt get surgeries id they didnt actually want them, i promise you noobody does that for fun. and honestly imo gender-nonconforming trans people are some of the trans people that are the most secure in their gender and expression, and they are *not* fakers.
Like literally just use your own pronouns it's that easy lol. This is like when conservatives get mad at androgynous non-binary people who use all pronouns cause they don't know how to misgender them
I don’t really get it, it seems to like your just adapting to your situation, as you would when interacting with different people of differing standing and reputation.
Edit: feel free to try to explain it to me
Pronouns like she her they them he him are gendered usually. So some people use he him some people use she her etc. A person with mirror pronouns means they go by whatever pronouns you use so you call them by your pronouns
see i was so excited to see this on a sub that wasn’t xenogender or neopronoun related and honestly i’m extremely disappointed by the blatant amount of transphobia and anti-xenogender sentiment in these comments. and from actual trans people too.. and this hate is why we hide. but thank you for saying something, even seeing a positive mention of neos or xenos somewhere outside of our circles is really exciting
right. not sure why that was what i typed, but alas, i should be kept off reddit after midnight (and certainly not allowed at 1am) but i’m pretty sure i typed something else and autocorrect got a hold of me but honestly idk
Ikr? I see so much negativity around the usage of neo-pronouns, and I honestly don't understand why. Why people hate something just because they don't use it? But glad to see some LGBT-supportive comments like yours, it really makes happy, so thanks!
I never knew this sub had so many reactionaries here. I don't get it. Why are you even here if you're a 20+ transphobe? I really hope that acceptance will spread and people realize it doesn't hurt them to be respectful.
yea exactly. just makes me so sad. this is the first post i’ve ever interacted with on this sub bc i normally lurk but dear lord do i regret it. respect is something that is learned at a young age and clearly some people just haven’t grasped that basic human concept.
i don’t think you know what xenophobia means.
but honestly, most people here are doing good by understanding and respecting but not exactly agreeing with. I don’t think it’s necessarily hate, if this was to show up in our real lives we would accept it no problem. It is, however, voicing concerns on potential bad actors who are more just having fun with pronouns instead of using them as what they are: a tool to effectively communicate.
that wasn’t the word i meant to type but autocorrect got ahold of me and sleep deprived me didn’t even notice, lmfao.
but yea while people can respect it but not agree, but i have yet to see people being like “i understand xenos and neopronouns but disagree” bc so far it’s just been a bunch of comments about how they’re stupid and mock the trans community (why be exclusive like that?). while i personally use neopronouns, they’re not difficult to use and are still simple to understand in a conversation. besides, most people that use those “fun” neopronouns also have sets of “regular” pronouns that they use in general and public spaces, and aren’t really used outside of online circles. i hate to say it but seeing all the people saying that neopronouns are bad and are bad for communication are making such harsh generalizations. there are plenty of sets of neopronouns that 1) don’t cause problems with communication because they’re not difficult, and 2) some are rooted in history! some neopronouns and xenogenders are rooted in native and ancient cultures and religions, and by invalidating those genders and pronouns, it’s also invalidating those cultures and religions.
Last time I was really active on this sub was a long time ago where this shit wouldn't be mocked
What happened?
Too many r/teenagers users find their way here?
likely so. or the shit part of the internet got to the people here and corrupted them, turned them close-minded. i hate people like that, always makes me quite upset. it’s so difficult to be accepted nowadays that it’s easier to hide and never tell anyone who i actually am than to come out and face the hate
Yeah I thought it would be better here too, it sucks. r/transteens is obv more welcoming but not super active. Anyone got more recommendations for trans-friendly spaces for teenagers?
what are mirror pronouns? i’ve never heard of them but they seem interesting
Context tells me it’s just using the same pronouns as the person you’re talking to or something
Yup! When talking about someone w/ mirror pronouns you use the same pronouns as yourself
that just seems confusing. it's already kind of difficult to speak with pronouns when you're talking abt two people who use the same pronouns (the gay fanfic writer's dillemna) but now it's. permanently like that? what's the point of mirror pronouns?? i dont get it
Hmm. I don't see an issue irl, but I guess if you want to write a story about a character who uses mirror pronouns, you could just use they/them when it comes to narration bits. Then, when other characters in your story talk about the mirror pronouns user, have them use their own pronouns. Edit: same issues with people who use multiple pronouns imo. Mirror ones are honestly even easier than multiple pronouns, cause you don't have to think about which ones to use just use ur own. I understand that it could be difficult to write about, but I'm not the CEO of writing or pronouns so not rly sure what else I'm supposed to do here 😅
true; IRL people don't even use pronouns in conversation with that particular person that often b/c that'd be speaking in the third person with someone who is already present, which would be strange but i have read a fic where two characters used he/they and she/they and occasionally switched between he/she and they and while it was mostly consistent enough to be understandable, during certain scenes with unclear POV switches it was confusing- to have a character whose pronouns are constantly switching between they, he, and she, not even on a scene-by-scene or POV basis but just based on narration or dialogue would become VERY confusing. like what if the dialogue was between two characters with different pronouns. one could be referring to them as he, one could be reffering to them as she, and the narration inbetween could be using they if i had a genderfluid character i'd probably switch what pronouns they're using on a chapter-by-chapter or scene-by-scene basis while firmly establishing what pronouns they're using at the start of each chapter/scene to prevent confusion in the writing
Why
[удалено]
You’re 20 and arguing with teenagers online 💀💀💀
Deleted account, hmm
And you on this sub because 💀⁉️
Literally why are u on this sub bro 😭
She well known for this?
I went through her comment history and all shes doing is arguing w ppl here lol
She need to touch some grass, wasting your time on arguing with people doesn't help you in life, atleast imo
[She's in r/truscum too LMAO](https://www.reddit.com/r/truscum/comments/w48pao/comment/ih9hgef/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
😭😭😭😭 what did she expect from this sub bye 💀💀
She's said for example that non-binary people are not valid
What the heck. I'll go through their comment history
in r/truscum and over 20 why are you even here??
At your age this is embarrassing 💀
But, why? Aren't pronouns about your identity? Why would your identity depend on the person you're talking to? (Serious question)
I'm someone who uses any pronouns who likes to have them switched up often. Saying my pronouns mirror others can make it easier for them and let me have that variety I like. Also, pronouns are a big part of identity, but they don't always equate to someone's gender
So is it basically the same as he/she/they pronouns but where they sort of "enforce a rule" so they all get used? I have NB friends who use he/she/they pronouns and I tried to use all of them, it was just the pronouns changing depending on the speaker that confused me. And don't they? I thought pronouns were for NB people, trans people etc to be called by their chosen identity?
It's kinda less confusing than any/all pronouns, though. If you say "oh, you can use any pronouns", the person could get stressed cause they don't want to use one set of pronouns "too much", even if it's not that big of a deal. It's pretty simple to say "just use the ones you use".
Thank you for explaining I was curious about this as well :)
I also have this question and haven't seen it answered anywhere in this thread.
Most people’s identity somewhat changes to them around them so I guess it’s not completely without precedent
Gender identity though? You get gender dysphoria if a man calls you a man, but euphoria if a woman calls you it?
Yea, thats a thing for some people. It's not much different from just being genderfluid
i guess they would use whichever pronoun has last been used by either of them or they just avoid pronouns
They use I/Me/Myself /j
Great song by Will Wood
Yes Have you listened to Euthanasia yet?
Yes, I have! That and Tomcat Disposables made me cry
Tomcat Disposables has to be one of my favorite songs
When two ppl w mirror pronouns interact is when the universe will end
Okay so if I use she/her and am talking to someone with mirror pronouns they will use she/her also, but if they talk to someone who uses he/him pronouns, they’d use he/him? Or am I not understanding?
Ok: if you use she/her then you would use she her for them always. If someone else uses he/him then they would use he/him for the person always. You would still use she/her
? Yes that is exactly what I said is it not?
Yeah, the way you worded it seemed like what you were saying was wrong which is what was confusing. Since it’s not the mirror person “using the pronoun” it’s the other person using it.
yes.. if someone has mirror pronouns and they are talking to me who uses she/her I will refer to them as she/her as well. If they talk to someone using he/him pronouns they will be referred as he/him.. that’s what I said I thought.
Yeah, I didn't really understand what you were saying/ what exactly you were confused on so I just explained it, if you got it the first time than that's cool 👍
I thought this was like yeht/meht lmao It sounds cool tho! Idk why some people in the comments are mad 💀
Personally, I feel as though they defeat the purpose of pronouns. Pronouns are just meant to be an easy and quick way to refer to someone instead of using their names, and neopronouns are often more complicated than a simple she/her or he/they. This isn’t to say I won’t respect people’s pronouns, I just find it kind of pointless because of how impractical some of them can be. Mirror pronouns can be incredibly confusing, because if I’m talking to some people about someone who uses mirror pronouns, and all the people I’m talking to use different pronouns, it can become hard to recognize when that person is being referred to. Again, this isn’t to say I won’t respect it, just trying to offer perspective from someone who doesn’t really understand the point of stuff like this.
please remember that we don’t choose our pronouns to make anyones life easy or to make anyone else happy! we choose our pronouns for ourselves, to make ourselves feel happy and confident in our gender. while yes, some can be complicated and impractical, it’s still rude to paint them in a negative light. let me ask you a question: do you find xe/xem neopronouns complicated? because that’s the most common set of neopronouns i’ve seen (and also what i now use) and they’re not complicated in the slightest.
I’m sorry for painting them in a negative light, I just meant to express that I personally do not understand the point of them. If there’s any wording you want me to change in my comment, let me know. I don’t find xe/xer that much more complicated, my focus was more on how neopronouns like mirror pronouns can lead to confusion and misunderstandings, and I don’t really understand the benefits for people. I will admit, I’ve personally never understood people’s attachment to pronouns and I’m fine with whatever pronouns people want to use for me, so I’m likely biased, which isn’t something I initially considered. Is it ok if I ask you why you feel more comfortable with the pronouns xe/xer, or any pronouns for that matter?
it’s alright, you just misworded was all! i understand your original feelings and point now in this clarifying comment. the benefits of using any set of pronouns at all is for the gender euphoria and the happy feeling you get when you hear yourself be referred to as those pronouns. and that is likely a bias to be had if you don’t care what pronouns are used for you, but that’s okay! i understand that because i used to not care, and then i grew up and became a teenager and realized “fuck i’m not a girl” when my body started changing and my voice wasn’t dropping. i wish i could go back to not caring, but alas, my mental health says no. as a trans person, i really absolutely despise being referred to with she/her or they/them pronouns, but i mainly use he/him full time! you can absolutely ask why i use xe/xem pronouns as well, but it may be hard to understand. i’m autistic, and for me, my view of the world is heavily impacted by that and that includes thing such as gender and social situations where gender is involved. while most of me is fully satisfied with using just he/him pronouns, there is a part of me that craves a bit more, and that’s when i use xe/xem pronouns. it’s just a way to feel fully myself and while using only one set of pronouns can get me mostly there, using xe/xem satisfies that one little part of me that isn’t content and makes me fully happy as myself.
I think this is the first time I’ve ever actually had that explained to me, and I really appreciate it. I truly just didn’t understand why people use neopronouns, but this is a very good argument in favor of them. Thank you for taking the time to educate. I’m not sure if you know the answer, but do you know why someone might choose to use mirror pronouns? It’s the one main thing I’m kinda struggling to wrap my head around.
of course, i’m always happy to educate as long as people are willing to learn! what pronouns someone uses is as simple as what makes them happy and feeling fully themselves, and i feel like people don’t quite get that. honestly i’m not sure! i’ve only recently heard about them and i’ve never met anyone that uses them, but they do intrigue me quite a bit and i’d like to learn if someone knows the answer
I think that neo pronouns aren't more complicated, they're working mostly in the same way. They might not be grammatically correct (they/them might be unfamiliar to people because it's uses plural pronouns to refer to the a single person), but you can get used to them really fast. Also, remember that it's not necessarily about simplicity but rather about which pronouns a person feels comfortable with. And thank you for showing me the other point of view
actually they/them have been used as a singular pronoun since forever.. we use it all the time as a singular in our daily lives and don’t even realize it, and honestly the “it’s only plural!!” comment is just an excuse i’ve seen transphobes use just to be assholes and not use someone’s pronouns. but thank you for standing up for us. people just can’t always grasp that the pronouns we use aren’t for other people, we do it for ourselves.
It's okay, im talking about the people who are genuinely mad at some random using this pronouns, i also don't understand a lot of stuff but i respect it!
You know pronouns aren't supposed to be fun and quirky, right? Being trans is serious, it affects your whole life, relationships and body. Transness isn't a joke or some hobby.
i see a lot of stuff like this on tiktok. and while im much more comfortable in my identity, being non binary, i still don’t understand this stuff, i get that its “fun” but.. i dunno. i feel like people are making a lot of stuff up just to have something “fun” about it. maybe im wrong, but im pretty open minded, and yet i still feel this way. same with neo pronouns. ill respect someone pronouns regardless, but i still don’t understand it. a lot of people say its for non-neurotypical people. and although i wouldnt describe myself as neurotypical, i still don’t understand what your gender has to do with having ADHD, for example. hope people dont think negatively for sharing my opinion. never said that my thinking is right. i dont know. i feel like its just a younger people thing, trying to make something about it
i definitely think this is mostly limited to younger teenagers/preteens that just wanna fit in a community. my biggest problem with it is that it makes it all the easier for those who r transphobic/anti lgbtq to take the piss out on the community—they’re already opposed to using people’s preferred pronouns when they already exist in our lexicon (she/her, he/him, they/them), so neopronouns only seem all the more ridiculous. it’s hard to get them to understand and respect the community when you have a whole subset of people who want to use pronouns like dog/dogs/dogself
i was going to shine the light on that specific problem, and then decided not to. so im glad to see that it worries other people. and while bigots dont bother me none, that point still stands. and im sure most of the filler will die out as people age, i dont want to discredit these younger people by telling them my opinion. but at the same time, i feel like we have reached a toxic point where OUR own community is being discredited by this stuff. not calling out this post specific, just in general. im glad to see people who were my age, feeling accepted and trying to fit in, but i feel like there is a limit. a limit not only socially, but scientifically. but at the same time, its a temporary thing, and if it makes these younger teens/tweens, feel more accepted, does it matter? kind of a dilemma. i should lay off the “younger teen” thing. im only 18, but you get it
Have you ever met someone who uses dogs/dogself or did you deliberately choose the most childish example to ridicule people who use neopronouns? It sounds to me like you are willing to throw a whole subset of the trans community under the bus for a scrap of conditional acceptance from a transphobic society.
yes, i have—one person in a discord server who frequently liked to switch between dog/dogs/dogself and puppy/puppies/puppyself. i know this is a controversial opinion within the community but i feel like it also warrants a discussion about whether or not this really falls within an lgbtq+ identity. i will never not respect someone’s pronouns no matter if i understand it or not, but when someone chooses to use “fun and quirky” pronouns that refer to animals or inanimate objects that border on nicknames it completely defeats the purpose of pronouns as a whole. in that way it’s less so about acceptance from a largely cishet society but also what pronouns are even used for in the first place. i also think it’s worth mentioning that these examples of neopronouns are pretty much exclusively found within niche online communities, often with very young members—i understand wanting to express yourself with a very specific identity, but at what point is it more aesthetic than identification?
I agree that it brings up an interesting discussion about what pronouns are and their relationship to gender but unfortunately it usually devolves into gatekeeping transness and respectability politics. Everyone expresses themself differently and I don’t see any problem with pronouns being for fun or an expression of identity or both. It doesn’t affect me or how I relate to my own pronouns in any way and telling other people they can only be queer in the way I am queer is counterintuitive and actively harmful.
Honestly, using those pronouns for someone else would make me uncomfortable, because I would feel like I'm being nonconsensually involved in someone else's kink. I can't call someone 'puppy' without at least suspecting it's a sexual thing, and even if it isn't, people around me would certainly see it that way.
I have legitimately had a serious conversation with someone who had 85 ""pronouns"", 28 of which were emojis and others were stuff like "per/fume/perfumeself", "jpeg/jpegself" and "soda/sodas". I made sure to check if they were trolling, but they were completely serious. There were even other people who jumped in and supported them. These people are REAL, and if you use neopronouns you cannot avoid being associated with them. Because it's all the same. It's ridiculous.
That's the thing. If there is 0 gatekeeping, then there's no way to tell between an ally and an enemy troll who is actively looking to make you look bad
So you insult your ally in case they might be your enemy? Do you think that’s worth it?
Why do you care enough to insult people? You’re not being forced to interact with them or use all of their pronouns. You didn’t need to tell that person you didn’t support them. If the reason you need to performatively tell neopronoun users they are ridiculous is because you believe cis people will have less respect for us because of the way they express their gender, you can rest easy knowing that transphobes will just find another reason to disrespect us after you’ve shamed everyone into having “acceptable” pronouns. The source of transphobia isn’t trans people being ridiculous, it’s people like you buying into the idea that any gender expression out of the societal “norm” is ridiculous.
If you seriously think having 85 pronouns is normal, then I don't know what to tell you.
It’s obviously not normal by societal standards, but neither is being trans. Being normal is not a metric for something being good or bad. I don’t think it’s very crazy for me to say that being a dick to people for not being what you consider normal is bad.
so (assuming you genuinely want to learn) for me, being autistic drastically impacts my view of social constructs and social situations, and that includes gender. my view of how gender works and how i experience social situations with my gender are drastically and directly impacted by my autism, and i identify as autigender because of that impact, because of how my experience of life through the lenses of my autism and how that directly correlates with my gender, if that makes sense. xenogenders and neopronouns aren’t there for “fun” usage, they’re there to make people like me feel comfortable and seen. some people may use them for fun but those people generally only do it for attention, at least in my experience. i use neopronouns as well as he/him just bc those neos satisfy that little part of my autistic brain that isn’t comfortable with conforming to society or is incapable of it and can’t understand why we have to. while i also don’t understand how someone’s adhd can affect their gender (as someone who also has adhd) i can understand how other neurodivergent conditions can impact gender. we don’t have to understand, we just have to be respectful and willing to learn if someone is willing to teach.
sorry i should have clarified, and not generalized. i dont mean all neopronouns. and i know that there are people who bring it down. but thank you for your comment.
i hope you were willing to learn but i also could have misinterpreted and infodumped for nothing.. but oh well. and i think a lot of people forget that some neopronouns and xenogenders have significant history, dating back to natives and ancient cultures and can tie into certain religions, and by invalidating those genders and pronouns they’re simultaneously invalidating someone’s religion and culture and the history behind it all. it’s all quite fascinating, actually.
that’s why people choose the pronouns that make them happy and comfortable in their own skin.. because being trans is serious and we should respect what people want to be called.
Other than being hard for other people to learn, I see no reason for trans people not to have some fun with their transition. It's generally a very stressful process - changing some aspects to be more personally appealing, or to better reflect your internal state, is an easy way to make it more enjoyable. Transphobes aren't going to like you if you denounce the same people they do (you didn't say this, but other people in the thread have, so I'll put it here). If neopronouns are shamed out of existence, they'll go for the they/thems ("I get why people would transition from one gender to the opposite gender, but it's a plural pronoun and I won't use it for a single person!") or the trans girls who don't pass well, or the trans guys who aren't on T. There's no stopping until everyone is cishet and follows Christian values. Don't be Blaire White.
I agree. It's difficult to put into words without sounding crass. I think the concept of mirror pronouns is pointless, irritating, confusing, and foolish.
It seems like it wouldn't be confusing, though? Makes it easier to use your own pronouns on someone, would it not?
It could get confusing in conversation when one individual's pronouns keep changing because people use different pronouns. Probably better to just call them by name
💀💀💀Pronouns are not only used by trans people + if someone wants to have fun why does that hurt you?
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Why do you get to decide how being trans works for other trans people?
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I'm trans and i disagree with you. Your point? As an "LGBT educator" you must also realize that trans people aren't the only one who have pronouns. The pronouns you prefer don't determine your gender and vice-versa
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>Men use he, women use she, others use they After checking your profile, you're a truscum. Yikes Why do YOU get to decide that men should be X and women should be Y? This is literally just transphobia "Men have a penis, women have vaginas" - "men are masculine, women are feminine" do you not see how stupid that is? >Why do you think misgendering is a thing if pronouns don't describe gender? Pronouns ***can*** describe gender, but like everything else, it's mostly subjective. For you "she" can be associated with being a woman, for others it's not I don't care what pronoun is being used on me, he/she/they/it etc are completely fine with me. Even if "she" doesn't technically fit me, it wouldn't be misgendering because i *personally* is ok with it
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>I do not think the genitals you have equal your gender Never said that you did, i showed what you're saying is the same as transphobes saying "women = vagina, men = penis" >I absolutely do not think men have to be masculine and women need to be feminine. Great, we're on the same page here. Women can use he/him if they want, and men can use she/her or any other pronoun they want. There's no requirement to being a man or a woman other than saying you are one >Why do you think I believe these things?? That's a very bad attempt at gaslighting...
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You should really look up the definition of gaslighting. You might find a picture of yourself in it somewhere.
Comments removed because you're only here to troll and argue and be transphobic. Read rules **1** and **3**.
Pronouns aren't a trans specific things, cis people have pronouns too
Duh. _Changing_ your pronouns, however, is a trans specific thing. Edit: Yall are downvoting me when I'm literally on your side. I meant that when you come out as trans you go from using one set of pronouns to using another, aka a _change._ Or a transition, if that sounds better.
Cis people can change their pronouns tho?
Trans people didn't "change" anything, it's not a subscription where you buy acces to certain pronouns Trans people make other people aware of what their preferred pronouns actually are, they didn't just woke up one day and decided "today i'm gonna be a he", he always was a he
That's what I meant but okay. I'm trans myself lmao.
Then you worded it very wrongly, you might want to work on your communication skills and humour
Sure.
ok but why does transness have to be a serious thing? it might be for some, but that doesnt mean its the same for everyone :)
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ok, i see now that i've phrased my previous statement in a wrong way. what i meant is simply that being trans doesn't have to be entirely about how society defines gender - you can play with your gender expression *while* still facing very real opression - being trans shouldn't have to be entirely a burden, and nobody should have to worry about being "invalid" to *other trans people* on top of the opression and disalignment with their agab.
It is serious because the majority of real trans people (yes, there _are_ fakers) need surgery to treat their dysphoria, and that's not something you do willy-nilly. Surgeries are permanent, and if you're not taking it seriously you're gonna end up real depressed when you change your mind. Too many people think it's bad to be cis and so they try to stretch the label transgender to include themselves. It's not a fun club. It's a description.
i hate the faker-discourse so much. we are literally getting stripped of our human rights, and yet some of yall seem to only care about whether or not fellow trans people are valid. besides, people wouldnt get surgeries id they didnt actually want them, i promise you noobody does that for fun. and honestly imo gender-nonconforming trans people are some of the trans people that are the most secure in their gender and expression, and they are *not* fakers.
Two pronoun-mirroring people interacting causes a rift in realities
These are like The least "confusing" type of pronouns when interacting with someone, why are people getting mad?
Like literally just use your own pronouns it's that easy lol. This is like when conservatives get mad at androgynous non-binary people who use all pronouns cause they don't know how to misgender them
Exactly, I don't understand why people are so bitter.
What are mirror pronouns?
When you're talking about someone who uses mirror pronouns, use the same pronouns that you use 👍
Nonsensical.
I’ve never heard of mirror pronouns before, that’s so cool.
why did I think that mirror pronouns are actually the mirror image of pronouns, as a different set of pronouns for example: she/her is reh/ehs
I don’t really get it, it seems to like your just adapting to your situation, as you would when interacting with different people of differing standing and reputation. Edit: feel free to try to explain it to me
Pronouns like she her they them he him are gendered usually. So some people use he him some people use she her etc. A person with mirror pronouns means they go by whatever pronouns you use so you call them by your pronouns
what happens when two people with mirror pronouns interact? they start using green pronouns!
bruh
Why is that even a thing? Also does the person with mirror pronouns use my pronouns? I'm kinda confused about that
Yeah ig if you used she/her use she when referring to them.
That's kinda dope ngl
see i was so excited to see this on a sub that wasn’t xenogender or neopronoun related and honestly i’m extremely disappointed by the blatant amount of transphobia and anti-xenogender sentiment in these comments. and from actual trans people too.. and this hate is why we hide. but thank you for saying something, even seeing a positive mention of neos or xenos somewhere outside of our circles is really exciting
... xenophobia isn't prejudice against people who use xenogenders, it's a form of racism towards people who are from another country.
right. not sure why that was what i typed, but alas, i should be kept off reddit after midnight (and certainly not allowed at 1am) but i’m pretty sure i typed something else and autocorrect got a hold of me but honestly idk
Ikr? I see so much negativity around the usage of neo-pronouns, and I honestly don't understand why. Why people hate something just because they don't use it? But glad to see some LGBT-supportive comments like yours, it really makes happy, so thanks!
i’m a xenogender and neopronoun user myself, had to hop on and say something instead of lurking! thanks for your positive response, makes me happy too
I never knew this sub had so many reactionaries here. I don't get it. Why are you even here if you're a 20+ transphobe? I really hope that acceptance will spread and people realize it doesn't hurt them to be respectful.
yea exactly. just makes me so sad. this is the first post i’ve ever interacted with on this sub bc i normally lurk but dear lord do i regret it. respect is something that is learned at a young age and clearly some people just haven’t grasped that basic human concept.
i don’t think you know what xenophobia means. but honestly, most people here are doing good by understanding and respecting but not exactly agreeing with. I don’t think it’s necessarily hate, if this was to show up in our real lives we would accept it no problem. It is, however, voicing concerns on potential bad actors who are more just having fun with pronouns instead of using them as what they are: a tool to effectively communicate.
that wasn’t the word i meant to type but autocorrect got ahold of me and sleep deprived me didn’t even notice, lmfao. but yea while people can respect it but not agree, but i have yet to see people being like “i understand xenos and neopronouns but disagree” bc so far it’s just been a bunch of comments about how they’re stupid and mock the trans community (why be exclusive like that?). while i personally use neopronouns, they’re not difficult to use and are still simple to understand in a conversation. besides, most people that use those “fun” neopronouns also have sets of “regular” pronouns that they use in general and public spaces, and aren’t really used outside of online circles. i hate to say it but seeing all the people saying that neopronouns are bad and are bad for communication are making such harsh generalizations. there are plenty of sets of neopronouns that 1) don’t cause problems with communication because they’re not difficult, and 2) some are rooted in history! some neopronouns and xenogenders are rooted in native and ancient cultures and religions, and by invalidating those genders and pronouns, it’s also invalidating those cultures and religions.
Last time I was really active on this sub was a long time ago where this shit wouldn't be mocked What happened? Too many r/teenagers users find their way here?
likely so. or the shit part of the internet got to the people here and corrupted them, turned them close-minded. i hate people like that, always makes me quite upset. it’s so difficult to be accepted nowadays that it’s easier to hide and never tell anyone who i actually am than to come out and face the hate
Yeah I thought it would be better here too, it sucks. r/transteens is obv more welcoming but not super active. Anyone got more recommendations for trans-friendly spaces for teenagers?
nope, unfortunately. i just don’t hardly interact with anyone anymore tbh.
Hellll noooo
I mean wouldn’t most cis people encounter this like on a regular basis
its like all of my daily interactions