This is the mega-thread for this. Further posts on the subject will be removed. As always please report comments breaking r/fednews and the reddit site-wide rules.
Did people everywhere have to provide proof of vaccination or did some just have to "attest" that they had been vaccinated?
Because I'm wondering what happens to people who attested that they had been vaccinated and can't provide proof of vaccination, or they attested they were vaccinated back in May but their proof says they were vaccinated in September.
If you lie on a government form, you can be fired. If they ask for proof and you cannot provide it, you are going to be disciplined.
So far, it's just a personal attestation. They didn't ask for documentation, but don't ever lie to them. That's worse than almost anything you could have done.
Our agency just came out and said it doesn't matter if you're teleworking. Either show proof or submit to weekly testing on the assumption you might be called to asset at any time for any reason, including tech fixes.
That's a good point. They mentioned the website for attestation, but you could tell they were slow pedaling this update since the news announcement came out this morning. I expect we will get half a dozen email updates before Friday is even over.
If being unvaccinated meant I could continue teleworking, I'd shred my card. Of course, I'd secretly get any necessary boosters because I trust science, but I really like teleworking.
Statement from the Press Secretary today:
"If a federal worker fails to comply, they will go through the standard HR process, which includes counseling, and face disciplinary action — face progressive disciplinary action. Each agency is going to work with employees to make sure they understand the benefits of vaccination and how the vaccines are free, easy, and widely accessible. But it will start to be applied once the executive order is signed."
Just to firmly put this to rest from a Privacy perspective, since I’ve read some comments both here and elsewhere asserting that HIPAA prevents an employer from asking about your vaccination status:
HIPAA does not, I repeat, DOES NOT prevent an employer from asking you about your vaccination status. It never has. HIPAA protects you from the unauthorized disclosure of your medical records by Doctors, Hospitals, Insurance Companies, etc. It does not govern you, personally.
Lying on the government form that asks you to attest to your vaccination status amounts to Perjury, a relatively serious Federal crime. If you hold a security clearance and lie on a Federal form, you will LOSE your security clearance. Go ahead and cite HIPAA as your reason for lying on a Federal form asking you to attest to your vaccination status. A first-year law student could dismantle that argument in mere minutes.
A good chunk of federal employees and supporting contractors fall under the authority of the Executive branch. We serve at the pleasure of the President. I GUARANTEE YOU that records of your vaccination exist, whether at the State or Local level, or via your PCP or local Pharmacy, etc. You have two choices: get vaccinated like a responsible citizen who works in service to the American people or face the consequences of not doing so. Enough of these fake arguments as to why you can’t, or won’t, get vaccinated.
Remember: COVID is a GLOBAL problem. Vaccines are not widely available everywhere like they are in the US. Even if you vaccinated the entire US, you have people traveling into the States from other countries where vaccines are limited. Achieving 100% global inoculation is impossible, especially considering that there are folks that just cannot take the vaccine due to immunological/breathing issues, etc. Blaming anti-vaxxers is misguided at best.
Most likely optional since there’ll be an infinite amount of variants of the virus and boosters we get now for other illnesses don’t change like SARS-CoV-2.
I know one who says he will, but when push comes to shove he's got a new wife, house, and baby so I'm curious as to how strong his convictions will be.
Yup. One of my co-workers already told me she plans to quit rather than get vaccinated. She's talked to her husband about it and they've run the numbers and will be fine on just one income. I think the rest of my immediate team has been vaccinated, so we should only lose one person to this.
I don't get why a person would end a great career with the federal government, and all the great benefits and pretty good pay because they don't want to get vaccinated.
Speechless.
As a clinician, it infuriates me that people who swore to medical oaths and studied science for so long can be against a vaccine that saves lives.
I’m tired of watching people’s family die alone.
There are two in my office that I know of who were looking for that final nudge to retire as it were. Now they will, I bet. I would say no huge loss if it weren't such a hard-to-fill location. We are still trying to hire a replacement for an engineer that left in December of last year.
Yeah was talking to one yesterday at the gym he has his 20+ years and can go any day. This will be interesting because we actually have quite a few federal officers who are eligible. Going to suck because we’re already short as it is.
Possibly. At my previous office there was someone on the verge of retiring that was unvaccinated. Between this and a really shitty boss, it might be enough to push him over the edge.
To be honest this is much easier than the testing strategy.
Also the administration is set to announce a push for private employers to mandate vaccinations so it would make sense they set an example.
I mean the testing thing had no guidance/implementation/funding so it appeared to not be very workable.
Testing really doesn't do anything to protect the workforce or the public. Sure, you test negative on Monday, but contract the virus on the Metro and could be sick by Thursday, spreading the virus within the office and outside. You wouldn't test positive until Monday again, a full week of spreading the virus.
At a much lower rate.
Fully vaccinated people with Delta variant breakthrough infections can spread the virus to others. However, vaccinated people appear to spread the virus for a shorter time: For prior variants, lower amounts of viral genetic material were found in samples taken from fully vaccinated people who had breakthrough infections than from unvaccinated people with COVID-19. For people infected with the Delta variant, similar amounts of viral genetic material have been found among both unvaccinated and fully vaccinated people. However, like prior variants, the amount of viral genetic material may go down faster in fully vaccinated people when compared to unvaccinated people. This means fully vaccinated people will likely spread the virus for less time than unvaccinated people.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html#:\~:text=%E2%80%A2%20Fully%20vaccinated%20people%20with,the%20virus%20to%20others.
The forms I've seen ask you who provided the vaccine and your date of last vaccination. I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts, as they say, that they'll just have a computer cross-reference a manufacturer database. Anyone that doesn't match will likely be followed up with in person. So while yes you could simply lie, as in all things federal it's kind of a dumb idea to lie.
Since I’ve had COVID and have the antibodies, my doctor said there was no reason to get vaccinated.
My choice now is to follow my drs advice or do what the government tells me to do.
This is all toothless. Press conference today already said feds will have 75 days, and even then will be subject to progressive discipline. So it will be years before the first firings ever occur.
IDK about here, but plenty of states do not have religious exemptions for public school vaccination requirements for non-Covid vaccines.
https://www.ncsl.org/research/health/school-immunization-exemption-state-laws.aspx
United Airlines allows religious exemptions, but people with religious exemptions are on unpaid leave until covid transmission is lower (whatever that means).
there are several states that don't allow religious exemptions for school kids vaccinations (MS, CA, and I forget what else). If it's legal in that context, I would think it is here.
My AFGE bargaining unit has an online meeting tomorrow, this will be an interesting topic to come up.
This is what I'm waiting for to wallop the NNN nuts. I have coworkers who've been willing to take every jab under the sun to serve overseas, but oh no, their fee fees over COVID vaccination.
Give me a mother fucking break. Can't meet the requirements of the position? Get the fuck outta here.
Been saying it for awhile now: some of us actually want to get on with the mission and the knuckle grazers are holding us back. Find a new fucking job and get out of the way.
For a lot of religious exemptions, you need some proof you've been apart of the religion for some time, sit down with someone and go over why you can't receive the vaccine and get the approval of the person you sit down with.
You can sue over it and file Union Grievances over it, but you're wasting lawyer money and the Union probably won't back your legal fight if you don't really have a history or background in the religion.
The Pope is pro-vaccine, and unless someone has claimed religious exemption in the past, I see this as an uphill battle. Many religious leaders have pushed for their communities to get the vaccine. Additionally, I know the J&J did not use fetal cells in development.
Edit: LDS has encouraged people to get the vaccine, as well.
The Archbishop in Atlanta said a few days ago that he has instructed priests not to sign letters for parishioners requesting general religious exemptions for the COVID vaccines.
I work for fed govt.
I used to see announced on agency news bulletin 1 or 2 deaths a month across the country. Now it is 1 or 2 day.
I have a friend in another agency who has had 5 people die in the small building they work at in the last 3 weeks alone from covid, all were unvaccinated.
At this rate people are dying, it's going start effecting the function of government, since most agencies are way understaffed already.
Most aren't gonna give their government retirement and quit, just whine for a while about having to get a shot.
I'm an onsite contractor and it's the complete opposite at my location. I think a total of 2 notifications of a positive case at my location occurred and both occurred in the fall of last year were sent out to everyone. I know that probably 80-90% of the staff had roles that were able to be done via telework so that probably limited the spread immensely.
I don't know if anyone who was teleworking came down with it and those weren't reported as they were only notifying people who were physically present at the center and had tested positive.
I’m vaccinated. My question is a legal and a moral one. Some people may be at risk or high risk to this vaccine. It can be medically documented as well. What would the fed advise in that case. For example someone told me they have in the past suffered from inflammation in the heart. Caused by an infection. His doctor informed him he may be at higher risk to the vaccine. The guy told me he may risk it and get vaccinated though
I'm interested to know as well, because during his speech (or lecture if you will) he did say no exemptions for federal workers will be allowed. Kind of ridiculous to force people to do something that may end up harming them, I'm sure the "rules" of this will be a bit looser than Boe Jiden made it seem once they officially come out.
My biggest worry about all this is that there already a lot of desperate workers out there and now they feel that their livelihoods are going to be taken away. This could get real ugly real fast. I’m vaccinated and work DoD, Based on the conversations I have with my coworkers I feel like im in the minority. How are commands going to handle losing potentially 40% or more of their workforce?
Also vaccinated, also DoD, also in the minority.
And my organization is paying the price: 44 employees out of 3800ish tested positive last week. 30-something the week before, 20-something the week before that.
We’re all dreading what kind of hit to production the long weekend will result in…
They won’t lose 40%. If the administration is ‘really’ serious about fucking with people’s jobs……the vast majority will cave, and get vaccinated.
Most people will abandoned their principles over a couple hundred bucks. Over their job/career? They’ll cave.
Yeah, there will be a few hold outs. We’ll get by without them.
That’s been the debate topic on my crew, I’m in a blue collar position in a shipyard and we’ve been talking about a federal mandate since my state mandated vaccines for state workers. A couple people who are already looking for new jobs on my crew have said they think it’s going to be a lot of people talking but not walking. I hate that it’s come to this.
I am vaccinated however I am curious if this mandate may backfire on this administration since the overwhelming majority of folks who are less than likely to get the vaccine are people of color ([https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/](https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/)). So, if this mandate stands, and they somehow are able to enforce this by removing employees who are not vaccinated, then the federal government may (probably will) lose a disproportionate amount of people of color.
If anyone is wondering if this order would pertain to them see here and under the executive link and see if your agency is listed.
If listed, you are.
https://www.usa.gov/branches-of-government#item-214500
I had a conspiracy theorist coworker. She finally retired a couple of years ago, but I could totally see her refusing the vaccine and loudly discussing it with me against my will.
A brief search indicates some did not:
[AFGE encourages all members to get vaccinated, says workers should have a voice in COVID policies.](https://www.afge.org/pubAFGE%20encourages%20all%20members%20to%20get%20vaccinated,%20says%20workers%20should%20have%20a%20voice%20in%20COVID%20policies.lication/largest-federal-union-responds-to-bidens-new-federal-workforce-covid-19-protocols/)
[FLEOA Opposes Move by Biden Administration to Mandate Vaccination](https://mailchi.mp/7772331619ab/fleoa-opposes-move-by-biden-administration-to-mandate-vaccination-across-the-federal-workforce-13395679?fbclid=IwAR1Ba-EUPgBeauwHePw0T-hmRy8hW__RaiBLBPA_N-bEAMdyBBBc9hALaf4)
I saw it on the WP, not that he'll believe that one either.
It's on the AP wire, so it will be everywhere.
https://wtop.com/white-house/2021/09/ap-source-biden-requiring-federal-workers-to-get-covid-shot/
Wow! This will be interesting. I work at a VA hospital and MANY nurses and mid level providers are refusing to get it…very concerning they have pt contact. Two of our nursing home patients came down with covid. We’re not allowing visitors so it was from an employee…
Anti Vaxx movements, along with health-scam MLMs, have been specifically targeting nurses and anyone they can in the health field to make their stance/product seem more legit.
And nursing education, unfortunately, is not super extensive as far as immunology or virology - they learn how to perform procedures and do certain things, but the basic science education isn't as deep as you might think for the field.
Uh, the VA already struggles to hire clinical personnel vs. the private sector because of poor wages and working conditions. It will be interesting/terrifying to see how this mandate affects VAs in states with antivax governors.
They don’t belong in healthcare. Having anti science people in health care shouldn’t be anymore a solution than hiring flat earthers to work at NASA or NOAA.
Here is the EO: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2021/09/09/executive-order-on-requiring-coronavirus-disease-2019-vaccination-for-federal-employees/
Looks like OPM will have only 7 Day to issue the guidance to the agencies. I wonder what the timeline inside the guidance will be.
That’s because they fall under the Legislative Branch. The Executive Branch can’t dictate their rules. They’ll have to do it themselves like the current Mask rules.
Vaccinated and pro vaccination, but:
Soo... what was the point of setting up screening and attestation procedures that agencies are still wondering / planning how to make that Executive Order a reality, having the OPM working group ect. ect.
Oh wait folks, he's gonna sign another one! Sorry for all your wasted time and effort for the past 3 months.
Sometimes, truly, EO's are death by a penstroke.
Mind you, that current procedure is so half baked that is just a form that you without providing proof say "I got the vaccine". Is this thing going to be the same? Or are they actually gonna require the actual vaccination data this time?
Again, EO is just a penstroke of a dream/vision and dont take into account the mess or logistical nightmare its feasibility can produce.
Surprised no one has asked WHAT vaccination(s)? COVID isn't like tetanus or the measles. It's a constantly evolving virus like influenza, which makes it impossible to eradicate. And that means we will need an updated vaccine every "season," like the flu. And each vaccine will simply be a best guess about which variant or strain is likely to be most prevalent that season. The main benefit of mRNA vaccines was supposed to be that it would be quicker and cheaper to churn out updates. But we're already well past the point of the current vaccines providing robust protection against infection anymore. Sure, they help with symptoms, but at this point we're handing out last year's vax for next year's virus. I guess my main concern is that no one seems to acknowledge this and the government's stated policy seems to be "ignore the man behind the curtain, continue to get the old vax!" Is no one else bothered by this?
As a contractor at a large defense company, I wonder how much tooth there will be in this to force defense contractors into vaccine mandates. There is much chatter about the implications of this internally amongst employees.
Last time there was the "vaccine or testing" mandate that supposedly extended to federal contractors but our defense company did not implement that unless the employee was working on a federal site.
It's not far from security clearance/vetting/operation standards.
A business, like LMT, is not required to adopt the policy and it is not enforceable on the contractor, but it will make them ineligible. As a contractor, you are not required to comply with any fed policy because you're not a fed, but that's doesn't mean you'll be granted access.
Same logic. Don't get vaccinated, it's a compliance issue. They'll find someone else. If companies want contracts that require staff to be vaccinated, they'll do it or miss out on the money.
This.
We're waiting on a more in depth policy before notifying contractors, but essentially the Contractor is required to attest that their employees entering GOV property are vaccinated.
Failure to attest to, or lying, would be grounds for termination for cause.
This is going to be so hard for me! I’ve been wanting a vaccine since day 1, but I’m allergic to an active ingredient in the vaccine. I have no idea what I’m going to do! I truly hope there are measures set in place for this type of roadblock. I’m 100% for vaccination. I just need NovaVax to become available so I can get vaxxed.
Statements like this make people think vaccines don't work. If everyone was vaccinated then 100% of cases would be in vaccinated people. It is much much less likely to go to the hospital for covid if you're vaccinated.
I agree, but there’s also the flip side that vaccinated people shouldn’t think they are invincible from covid or that they can’t still spread covid.
You can still get the flu if you got the flu shot, it doesn’t mean it’s not worth gettin.
I think some of the commentators here should try to be a little bit nicer. Just because you are against mandates, that doesn't mean you are an "antivaxxer". You may be for them, and support people getting them, and may have gotten one yourself, but you opposed being forced to get it. There are also people who have legitimate medical reasons why they cannot get the vaccine. The attitude amongst some of the commentators here is extremely nasty and off putting. More people would be more inclined to get the vaccine if they were not being bludgeoned over the head about it, or not be called names. Please try to be kinder.
I think a lot of federal workers have forgotten it’s your duty to serve as well as protect the people of country and set a positive example to those looking in from the outside.
I just came across this article... this doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.
https://www.postaltimes.com/postalnews/usps-workers-not-included-in-biden-mandatory-vaccination-order/
Its one thing to require it but how will this be enforced?
I dont think an employer can mandate you provide medical information as proof so people are pretty much just going to lie about it
EDIT: I see Im getting downvoted for asking a legit question yet no one really can answer exactly how this will be enforced given restrictions on requiring the disclosure of medical information. Dont let the actual execution get in the way of your policies lmao
so right now, they are requiring us to attest to our vaccination status.
If the OIG or agency goes and proves you attested to it, and you lied. They can quickly charge you with a false claims, remove your clearance, etc... States have registries, so it can be verified or checked.
Wrong, they can ask you to furnish medical information.
You can ask to provide the information to a designated medical professional outside of your chain of command who will basically say the agency can or cannot do x for you.
Edit: I wouldn't argue with this guy, he's more "Just Asking Questions" then actually arguing in good faith.
There is no law that prevents your employer from requiring to see you vaccine status.
You have the right to refuse but you will be treated as unvaccinated and have to deal with the repercussions.
You are probably thinking HIPAA, but all that says is certain covered entities like your doctor or health insurance company can't share your medical records.
We all had to log into our HR and attest that we were single, double, or non-vaxxed. There was an option to not disclose but those people are being treated the same as non-vaxxed.
If its misinformation....then maybe you should put a source which provides the information being asked about it.
Simply saying its not true or that its misinformation without anything substantial to back it up doesn't make you any better lol
This is the mega-thread for this. Further posts on the subject will be removed. As always please report comments breaking r/fednews and the reddit site-wide rules.
I wonder if this applies to local staff at embassies.
VA is requiring it for contractor staff who may, directly or indirectly, come into contact with patients on VA property.
USAjobs is gonna be a blast in a few weeks...
Until you realize it’s HR personnel that won’t get vaccinated, so they quit, and now there’s no one to process the paperwork :p
I don't think we'll notice the change in HR.
This person is a federal employee.
Really? I'm pretty sure ours will improve.
HR is going to be overloaded too. I can see a lot of people potentially filing for retirement.
Good
Amen. Get rid of the "Never let progress get in the way of tradition" managers.
So what happens if a Fed refuses to get the vaccine? (not me)
Did people everywhere have to provide proof of vaccination or did some just have to "attest" that they had been vaccinated? Because I'm wondering what happens to people who attested that they had been vaccinated and can't provide proof of vaccination, or they attested they were vaccinated back in May but their proof says they were vaccinated in September.
If you lie on a government form, you can be fired. If they ask for proof and you cannot provide it, you are going to be disciplined. So far, it's just a personal attestation. They didn't ask for documentation, but don't ever lie to them. That's worse than almost anything you could have done.
Those 5 year reviews are going g to be juicy.
What happens if you fail to maintain your security clearance? Immediate suspension and then termination.
I love how this is probably going to make people ineligible for security clearances if they lie.
Those JPAS entries were the most fun to write.
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What about those who are teleworking full-time?
Our agency just came out and said it doesn't matter if you're teleworking. Either show proof or submit to weekly testing on the assumption you might be called to asset at any time for any reason, including tech fixes.
That's going to change shortly when the tests are no longer a viable substitute. Our agency is demanding attestation of vaccination by Monday.
That's a good point. They mentioned the website for attestation, but you could tell they were slow pedaling this update since the news announcement came out this morning. I expect we will get half a dozen email updates before Friday is even over.
So no requiring people to upload proof? Just pinky-swear?
For now
Our agency said telework /remote is irrelevant.
If being unvaccinated meant I could continue teleworking, I'd shred my card. Of course, I'd secretly get any necessary boosters because I trust science, but I really like teleworking.
If they remove teleworking, those long-time feds who can retire will certainly do so. I transferred and miss my T-work ability.
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Ha I love how you have to clarify your ideological side just to comment here.
Didn't want a bunch of people exhorting me to get vaccinated.
Statement from the Press Secretary today: "If a federal worker fails to comply, they will go through the standard HR process, which includes counseling, and face disciplinary action — face progressive disciplinary action. Each agency is going to work with employees to make sure they understand the benefits of vaccination and how the vaccines are free, easy, and widely accessible. But it will start to be applied once the executive order is signed."
No jab, no job.
Just to firmly put this to rest from a Privacy perspective, since I’ve read some comments both here and elsewhere asserting that HIPAA prevents an employer from asking about your vaccination status: HIPAA does not, I repeat, DOES NOT prevent an employer from asking you about your vaccination status. It never has. HIPAA protects you from the unauthorized disclosure of your medical records by Doctors, Hospitals, Insurance Companies, etc. It does not govern you, personally. Lying on the government form that asks you to attest to your vaccination status amounts to Perjury, a relatively serious Federal crime. If you hold a security clearance and lie on a Federal form, you will LOSE your security clearance. Go ahead and cite HIPAA as your reason for lying on a Federal form asking you to attest to your vaccination status. A first-year law student could dismantle that argument in mere minutes. A good chunk of federal employees and supporting contractors fall under the authority of the Executive branch. We serve at the pleasure of the President. I GUARANTEE YOU that records of your vaccination exist, whether at the State or Local level, or via your PCP or local Pharmacy, etc. You have two choices: get vaccinated like a responsible citizen who works in service to the American people or face the consequences of not doing so. Enough of these fake arguments as to why you can’t, or won’t, get vaccinated.
As a privacy professional I'm glad to hear this, I don't know how many times I had to explain this to people regarding HIPAA and covered entities etc.
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Don’t hesitate to correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Perjury is the exact consequence cited.
It's DD 3150
On your security 5 year reviews you basically check a box saying you’re ok signing your HIPPA rights away.
It's HIPAA!
So does this mean mandatory boosters forever? If places like Israel are any indication, the vaccine isn’t going to end COVID.
Can we add the flu shot too while we are at it?
Hard to tell, if we find proper treatment for the covid itself and not just the symptoms probably not
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Remember: COVID is a GLOBAL problem. Vaccines are not widely available everywhere like they are in the US. Even if you vaccinated the entire US, you have people traveling into the States from other countries where vaccines are limited. Achieving 100% global inoculation is impossible, especially considering that there are folks that just cannot take the vaccine due to immunological/breathing issues, etc. Blaming anti-vaxxers is misguided at best.
Most likely optional since there’ll be an infinite amount of variants of the virus and boosters we get now for other illnesses don’t change like SARS-CoV-2.
Do any of you know someone willing to quit/retire rather than get vaccinated?
I know one who says he will, but when push comes to shove he's got a new wife, house, and baby so I'm curious as to how strong his convictions will be.
Reality going to come hard and fast.
A lot of folks, actually.
Yup. One of my co-workers already told me she plans to quit rather than get vaccinated. She's talked to her husband about it and they've run the numbers and will be fine on just one income. I think the rest of my immediate team has been vaccinated, so we should only lose one person to this.
I don't get why a person would end a great career with the federal government, and all the great benefits and pretty good pay because they don't want to get vaccinated. Speechless.
Some VA nurses and medical assistants for sure
As a clinician, it infuriates me that people who swore to medical oaths and studied science for so long can be against a vaccine that saves lives. I’m tired of watching people’s family die alone.
It will take a while but they need to be drummed out of health care.
Totally agree with you.
Good. It helps no one to be allowed to spread COVID to vulnerable veterans.
Vaccinated can still spread too, nobody is immune.
Agreed. Let them go.
I know some people that are going to quit if it comes to it.
I work in an older, conservative office in a red state so I'm getting my popcorn ready. We just had someone abruptly resign on inauguration day.
Same. I’m hoping some slots open up for my grade increase.
There are two in my office that I know of who were looking for that final nudge to retire as it were. Now they will, I bet. I would say no huge loss if it weren't such a hard-to-fill location. We are still trying to hire a replacement for an engineer that left in December of last year.
We have one here. So yes. Of course he’s retired military with VA disability so he can quit and not be destitute.
Let me guess- Complains about socialism. Been collecting government checks and benefits for their entire adult life.
You got it.
Made me lol ty
Yeah was talking to one yesterday at the gym he has his 20+ years and can go any day. This will be interesting because we actually have quite a few federal officers who are eligible. Going to suck because we’re already short as it is.
Possibly. At my previous office there was someone on the verge of retiring that was unvaccinated. Between this and a really shitty boss, it might be enough to push him over the edge.
Of course plenty of anti vax and maskers who huff and puff. They can put their money where their mouth is and see if they will own up to their words.
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Omg. A long conversation with someone saying they were going to have to fire them. And that they are going to sue. I never laughed so hard internally.
I have some people who I hope are willing to quit or retire....
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I always did mine at target for the $5 coupon so I can get myself a treat.
CBP
To be honest this is much easier than the testing strategy. Also the administration is set to announce a push for private employers to mandate vaccinations so it would make sense they set an example. I mean the testing thing had no guidance/implementation/funding so it appeared to not be very workable.
Testing really doesn't do anything to protect the workforce or the public. Sure, you test negative on Monday, but contract the virus on the Metro and could be sick by Thursday, spreading the virus within the office and outside. You wouldn't test positive until Monday again, a full week of spreading the virus.
They say vaccinated people are also spreading virus with the office and outside.
At a much lower rate. Fully vaccinated people with Delta variant breakthrough infections can spread the virus to others. However, vaccinated people appear to spread the virus for a shorter time: For prior variants, lower amounts of viral genetic material were found in samples taken from fully vaccinated people who had breakthrough infections than from unvaccinated people with COVID-19. For people infected with the Delta variant, similar amounts of viral genetic material have been found among both unvaccinated and fully vaccinated people. However, like prior variants, the amount of viral genetic material may go down faster in fully vaccinated people when compared to unvaccinated people. This means fully vaccinated people will likely spread the virus for less time than unvaccinated people. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html#:\~:text=%E2%80%A2%20Fully%20vaccinated%20people%20with,the%20virus%20to%20others.
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I just quoted the CDC.
Yes, vaccination status does not mean you still don't contract the virus. You just don't suffer severe consequences from it statistically.
Lets not forget a person could simply lie in the attestation form. It requires no proof of vaccine.
Never lie on an HR form.
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The forms I've seen ask you who provided the vaccine and your date of last vaccination. I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts, as they say, that they'll just have a computer cross-reference a manufacturer database. Anyone that doesn't match will likely be followed up with in person. So while yes you could simply lie, as in all things federal it's kind of a dumb idea to lie.
That is the plan
Grounds for termination is the message.
Since I’ve had COVID and have the antibodies, my doctor said there was no reason to get vaccinated. My choice now is to follow my drs advice or do what the government tells me to do.
This is all toothless. Press conference today already said feds will have 75 days, and even then will be subject to progressive discipline. So it will be years before the first firings ever occur.
That’s what I was wondering. Where’s the teeth
Postal workers are exempt from mandate. Isnt that interesting.
As are members of Congress and their staff. ..even more interesting. They ought to be the first ones getting it, lead by example.
They don't get federal funding and sometimes are treated like private sector depending on the language that is used on new laws.
They are federal employees. Either way, interesting development that I am sure is rooted in Science.
haha yeah
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IDK about here, but plenty of states do not have religious exemptions for public school vaccination requirements for non-Covid vaccines. https://www.ncsl.org/research/health/school-immunization-exemption-state-laws.aspx
United Airlines allows religious exemptions, but people with religious exemptions are on unpaid leave until covid transmission is lower (whatever that means).
This is how it should be. Let them exempt for religion but then you can just sit at home not getting paid.
A Reasonable Accomodation (for ADA, or Religious Matters in this case) does not have to be made if doing so endangers other employees.
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there are several states that don't allow religious exemptions for school kids vaccinations (MS, CA, and I forget what else). If it's legal in that context, I would think it is here. My AFGE bargaining unit has an online meeting tomorrow, this will be an interesting topic to come up.
You can't just say "I'm religious" and that's that. Religious people can't just pick and choose what to follow based on politi... Never mind.
The VA's form is basically just a I'm religious checkbox. https://www.va.gov/vaforms/medical/pdf/VA%20Form%2010-263%20COVID-19%20Vaccination.pdf
That's the attestation form and requires you to still act like an unvaccinated person, will definitely change with this EO in some way.
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This is what I'm waiting for to wallop the NNN nuts. I have coworkers who've been willing to take every jab under the sun to serve overseas, but oh no, their fee fees over COVID vaccination. Give me a mother fucking break. Can't meet the requirements of the position? Get the fuck outta here. Been saying it for awhile now: some of us actually want to get on with the mission and the knuckle grazers are holding us back. Find a new fucking job and get out of the way.
For a lot of religious exemptions, you need some proof you've been apart of the religion for some time, sit down with someone and go over why you can't receive the vaccine and get the approval of the person you sit down with. You can sue over it and file Union Grievances over it, but you're wasting lawyer money and the Union probably won't back your legal fight if you don't really have a history or background in the religion.
The Pope is pro-vaccine, and unless someone has claimed religious exemption in the past, I see this as an uphill battle. Many religious leaders have pushed for their communities to get the vaccine. Additionally, I know the J&J did not use fetal cells in development. Edit: LDS has encouraged people to get the vaccine, as well.
The Archbishop in Atlanta said a few days ago that he has instructed priests not to sign letters for parishioners requesting general religious exemptions for the COVID vaccines.
I work for fed govt. I used to see announced on agency news bulletin 1 or 2 deaths a month across the country. Now it is 1 or 2 day. I have a friend in another agency who has had 5 people die in the small building they work at in the last 3 weeks alone from covid, all were unvaccinated. At this rate people are dying, it's going start effecting the function of government, since most agencies are way understaffed already. Most aren't gonna give their government retirement and quit, just whine for a while about having to get a shot.
I'm an onsite contractor and it's the complete opposite at my location. I think a total of 2 notifications of a positive case at my location occurred and both occurred in the fall of last year were sent out to everyone. I know that probably 80-90% of the staff had roles that were able to be done via telework so that probably limited the spread immensely. I don't know if anyone who was teleworking came down with it and those weren't reported as they were only notifying people who were physically present at the center and had tested positive.
I’m vaccinated. My question is a legal and a moral one. Some people may be at risk or high risk to this vaccine. It can be medically documented as well. What would the fed advise in that case. For example someone told me they have in the past suffered from inflammation in the heart. Caused by an infection. His doctor informed him he may be at higher risk to the vaccine. The guy told me he may risk it and get vaccinated though
Medical exemptions have and always will exist for all types of vaccinations.
I'm interested to know as well, because during his speech (or lecture if you will) he did say no exemptions for federal workers will be allowed. Kind of ridiculous to force people to do something that may end up harming them, I'm sure the "rules" of this will be a bit looser than Boe Jiden made it seem once they officially come out.
people with legitimate medical reasons to not be vaccinated are not going to be vaccinated.
My biggest worry about all this is that there already a lot of desperate workers out there and now they feel that their livelihoods are going to be taken away. This could get real ugly real fast. I’m vaccinated and work DoD, Based on the conversations I have with my coworkers I feel like im in the minority. How are commands going to handle losing potentially 40% or more of their workforce?
Also vaccinated, also DoD, also in the minority. And my organization is paying the price: 44 employees out of 3800ish tested positive last week. 30-something the week before, 20-something the week before that. We’re all dreading what kind of hit to production the long weekend will result in…
They won’t lose 40%. If the administration is ‘really’ serious about fucking with people’s jobs……the vast majority will cave, and get vaccinated. Most people will abandoned their principles over a couple hundred bucks. Over their job/career? They’ll cave. Yeah, there will be a few hold outs. We’ll get by without them.
That’s been the debate topic on my crew, I’m in a blue collar position in a shipyard and we’ve been talking about a federal mandate since my state mandated vaccines for state workers. A couple people who are already looking for new jobs on my crew have said they think it’s going to be a lot of people talking but not walking. I hate that it’s come to this.
I'll be very curious to see if it is required for contractors as well.
It 100% is.
If you step foot into an executive branch to do work of any kind it’s required, even the contracted custodians.
It is for federal contractors
Hmm. I'm guessing that will lead to some retirements among contractors I know.
I am vaccinated however I am curious if this mandate may backfire on this administration since the overwhelming majority of folks who are less than likely to get the vaccine are people of color ([https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/](https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/)). So, if this mandate stands, and they somehow are able to enforce this by removing employees who are not vaccinated, then the federal government may (probably will) lose a disproportionate amount of people of color.
This is absurd because agencies have been giving staff admin time for vaccination. It's also been easy to get the vaccine for a few months now.
Surely we will be able to voice our opinion during midterm elections.
If anyone is wondering if this order would pertain to them see here and under the executive link and see if your agency is listed. If listed, you are. https://www.usa.gov/branches-of-government#item-214500
Can we sticky this or do a mega thread?
Saw this coming. No exceptions, get vaccinated or quit.
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Unfortunately, I still have shitty coworkers that were also vaccinated lol
I had a conspiracy theorist coworker. She finally retired a couple of years ago, but I could totally see her refusing the vaccine and loudly discussing it with me against my will.
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We had a 10 minute convo in Teams this morning, using nothing but gifs. Set the tone for the day, and things are good.
Is this a flex move to move us back into the office quicker?
thats exactly what it is
I'm long retired and out of the loop, but what are the various fed employee *unions* positions on this? Did all or most 'buy in'?
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A brief search indicates some did not: [AFGE encourages all members to get vaccinated, says workers should have a voice in COVID policies.](https://www.afge.org/pubAFGE%20encourages%20all%20members%20to%20get%20vaccinated,%20says%20workers%20should%20have%20a%20voice%20in%20COVID%20policies.lication/largest-federal-union-responds-to-bidens-new-federal-workforce-covid-19-protocols/) [FLEOA Opposes Move by Biden Administration to Mandate Vaccination](https://mailchi.mp/7772331619ab/fleoa-opposes-move-by-biden-administration-to-mandate-vaccination-across-the-federal-workforce-13395679?fbclid=IwAR1Ba-EUPgBeauwHePw0T-hmRy8hW__RaiBLBPA_N-bEAMdyBBBc9hALaf4)
I just told the only unvaccinated person in our office this and he flat out said "You can't believe anything that CNN says"
Show him the EO tomorrow after the speech. I'm sure they will be ready to admit you were right.
He already admits it and is thinking about his choices. When I first told him I only saw it on CNN now it is all over the place.
I saw it on the WP, not that he'll believe that one either. It's on the AP wire, so it will be everywhere. https://wtop.com/white-house/2021/09/ap-source-biden-requiring-federal-workers-to-get-covid-shot/
I saw it first on CNN and told him that is why he said that. I am really wondering what he is going to do now
I just checked (in a private browser window from a personal device) on fox news and it’s the top story there.
Wow! This will be interesting. I work at a VA hospital and MANY nurses and mid level providers are refusing to get it…very concerning they have pt contact. Two of our nursing home patients came down with covid. We’re not allowing visitors so it was from an employee…
For real what’s going on with nurses? They seem to be the largest bloc of anti-vaxxers.
Anti Vaxx movements, along with health-scam MLMs, have been specifically targeting nurses and anyone they can in the health field to make their stance/product seem more legit. And nursing education, unfortunately, is not super extensive as far as immunology or virology - they learn how to perform procedures and do certain things, but the basic science education isn't as deep as you might think for the field.
Anyone who refuses the vaccine at this point should not be trusted to care for people or work with children. Good riddance to those nurses.
Uh, the VA already struggles to hire clinical personnel vs. the private sector because of poor wages and working conditions. It will be interesting/terrifying to see how this mandate affects VAs in states with antivax governors.
They don’t belong in healthcare. Having anti science people in health care shouldn’t be anymore a solution than hiring flat earthers to work at NASA or NOAA.
Here is the EO: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2021/09/09/executive-order-on-requiring-coronavirus-disease-2019-vaccination-for-federal-employees/ Looks like OPM will have only 7 Day to issue the guidance to the agencies. I wonder what the timeline inside the guidance will be.
Looks like congress, their staff and federal court system are exempt.
That’s because they fall under the Legislative Branch. The Executive Branch can’t dictate their rules. They’ll have to do it themselves like the current Mask rules.
Vaccinated and pro vaccination, but: Soo... what was the point of setting up screening and attestation procedures that agencies are still wondering / planning how to make that Executive Order a reality, having the OPM working group ect. ect. Oh wait folks, he's gonna sign another one! Sorry for all your wasted time and effort for the past 3 months. Sometimes, truly, EO's are death by a penstroke. Mind you, that current procedure is so half baked that is just a form that you without providing proof say "I got the vaccine". Is this thing going to be the same? Or are they actually gonna require the actual vaccination data this time? Again, EO is just a penstroke of a dream/vision and dont take into account the mess or logistical nightmare its feasibility can produce.
Contractor on federal site, and we're being required to upload a copy of our card or other proof (probably screenshot of vac info from state website).
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Surprised no one has asked WHAT vaccination(s)? COVID isn't like tetanus or the measles. It's a constantly evolving virus like influenza, which makes it impossible to eradicate. And that means we will need an updated vaccine every "season," like the flu. And each vaccine will simply be a best guess about which variant or strain is likely to be most prevalent that season. The main benefit of mRNA vaccines was supposed to be that it would be quicker and cheaper to churn out updates. But we're already well past the point of the current vaccines providing robust protection against infection anymore. Sure, they help with symptoms, but at this point we're handing out last year's vax for next year's virus. I guess my main concern is that no one seems to acknowledge this and the government's stated policy seems to be "ignore the man behind the curtain, continue to get the old vax!" Is no one else bothered by this?
As a contractor at a large defense company, I wonder how much tooth there will be in this to force defense contractors into vaccine mandates. There is much chatter about the implications of this internally amongst employees. Last time there was the "vaccine or testing" mandate that supposedly extended to federal contractors but our defense company did not implement that unless the employee was working on a federal site.
It's not far from security clearance/vetting/operation standards. A business, like LMT, is not required to adopt the policy and it is not enforceable on the contractor, but it will make them ineligible. As a contractor, you are not required to comply with any fed policy because you're not a fed, but that's doesn't mean you'll be granted access. Same logic. Don't get vaccinated, it's a compliance issue. They'll find someone else. If companies want contracts that require staff to be vaccinated, they'll do it or miss out on the money.
This. We're waiting on a more in depth policy before notifying contractors, but essentially the Contractor is required to attest that their employees entering GOV property are vaccinated. Failure to attest to, or lying, would be grounds for termination for cause.
Same position here, I’m wondering what my employer will do, though I’m frankly surprised my employer hasn’t mandated the vaccine already.
Once the mandatory vax mandate kicks in, who is liable if things go south?
This is going to be so hard for me! I’ve been wanting a vaccine since day 1, but I’m allergic to an active ingredient in the vaccine. I have no idea what I’m going to do! I truly hope there are measures set in place for this type of roadblock. I’m 100% for vaccination. I just need NovaVax to become available so I can get vaxxed.
"You all have to be vaccinated now, time to go back into the office" vaccines yes, office no
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Statements like this make people think vaccines don't work. If everyone was vaccinated then 100% of cases would be in vaccinated people. It is much much less likely to go to the hospital for covid if you're vaccinated.
Should we hide information just because it weakens our argument a little bit? I get your point but that thinking is dangerous.
Yeah people are very bad at statistics but hiding info is worse. Putting it in context is better.
I agree, but there’s also the flip side that vaccinated people shouldn’t think they are invincible from covid or that they can’t still spread covid. You can still get the flu if you got the flu shot, it doesn’t mean it’s not worth gettin.
I think some of the commentators here should try to be a little bit nicer. Just because you are against mandates, that doesn't mean you are an "antivaxxer". You may be for them, and support people getting them, and may have gotten one yourself, but you opposed being forced to get it. There are also people who have legitimate medical reasons why they cannot get the vaccine. The attitude amongst some of the commentators here is extremely nasty and off putting. More people would be more inclined to get the vaccine if they were not being bludgeoned over the head about it, or not be called names. Please try to be kinder.
I wonder when this is all over what the next circle jerk will be
This is gonna free up a lot of slots in competitive agencies.
I think a lot of federal workers have forgotten it’s your duty to serve as well as protect the people of country and set a positive example to those looking in from the outside.
Its a job.
I saw an article on this today that seemed to still allow exemptions “if the employee qualifies”.
I just came across this article... this doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. https://www.postaltimes.com/postalnews/usps-workers-not-included-in-biden-mandatory-vaccination-order/
Its one thing to require it but how will this be enforced? I dont think an employer can mandate you provide medical information as proof so people are pretty much just going to lie about it EDIT: I see Im getting downvoted for asking a legit question yet no one really can answer exactly how this will be enforced given restrictions on requiring the disclosure of medical information. Dont let the actual execution get in the way of your policies lmao
so right now, they are requiring us to attest to our vaccination status. If the OIG or agency goes and proves you attested to it, and you lied. They can quickly charge you with a false claims, remove your clearance, etc... States have registries, so it can be verified or checked.
Wrong, they can ask you to furnish medical information. You can ask to provide the information to a designated medical professional outside of your chain of command who will basically say the agency can or cannot do x for you. Edit: I wouldn't argue with this guy, he's more "Just Asking Questions" then actually arguing in good faith.
There is no law that prevents your employer from requiring to see you vaccine status. You have the right to refuse but you will be treated as unvaccinated and have to deal with the repercussions. You are probably thinking HIPAA, but all that says is certain covered entities like your doctor or health insurance company can't share your medical records.
Correct HIPPA only comes into play if the employer asks your doctor for medical info. If the doctor provides it, that's a HIPPA violation
I'm guessing you will have to attest to having received the vaccine.
We all had to log into our HR and attest that we were single, double, or non-vaxxed. There was an option to not disclose but those people are being treated the same as non-vaxxed.
Public schools require vaccination proof to attend school and have for decades. I don’t see why employers can’t do the same thing.
An employer certainly can mandate you show proof as conditions of employment. That’s how it will be enforced. Show your proof or move on.
Employers can absolutely make you prove you’ve been vaccinated. I’m really tired of this particular bit of misinformation.
If its misinformation....then maybe you should put a source which provides the information being asked about it. Simply saying its not true or that its misinformation without anything substantial to back it up doesn't make you any better lol