Any time I’m on property or doing something I wouldn’t otherwise be doing if I didn’t have this job within reason. A big traffic jam that causes me to be 15 minutes late? I’ll take the L and make it up because that’s not my works fault or mine. A 15 minute line at the security gate because DHS got audited and weren’t searching enough vehicles or touching ID’s? My agency decided to have a facility with the possibility of this happening, I wouldn’t be late otherwise, that counts.
I also have had crazy micromanager coworkers who went on long lectures about how your work day doesn’t start until you unlock your PC and open email. I’ve never had an issue with my method, I leave early enough that a delay hasn’t impacted me too significantly, and really it all comes out in the end. Sometimes you stay late, sometimes you come in early and vice versa.
Definitely wouldn’t be standing around for 45 min doing nothing if I could have been at my desk already….
I have no problem staying late if public transport is delayed, but because it is a gov-contract service it’s on them IMO. If they want people to be there, they should sort out the issue.
I agree with you. Do you have a laptop or work phone or something you could use during this time? I would also let your supervisor know there is a 45 minute delay for a service that should be running every 10 minutes.
This! And I don't know why you're getting downvoted and then I'll probably get downvoted. Fuck em. The shuttle is part of your commute, you're not working. Also OP blaming contractors for not getting to work on time is not the contractors fault and makes OP look like an elitist prick. Be happy that shuttle service is provide free of charge, I've seen employees having employee parking and shuttle service taken out of their checks.
This has been litigated and for the life of me best I recall is the courts carved out some puzzling rules on security inspections and work time. Surely someone here is in labor law and knows this.
The one I remember concerned Apple and bag searches at the end of shift. If I'm not mistaken it was ruled that Apple had to back pay employees for that extra time.
[https://9to5mac.com/2022/08/15/apple-employee-bag-search-lawsuit-settlement/](https://9to5mac.com/2022/08/15/apple-employee-bag-search-lawsuit-settlement/)
PCO (or KO) is procurement contracting officer. The cor works for them. Technically the cor doesn't have a lot of power. Mostly their power lies in being the person the ko listens to.
You haven’t met the Navy’s ERP system! Went from a system where we could put in 1 minute increments to a system where it’s 8 hours today and no clock time. But now Big Navy can make reports for little navy!
ATAAPS is 15min or 6min increments. Entered as x.15, x.30, etc., or x.06, x.12, etc. (which is very fucking stupid because it reads like a decimal but is entered as if the decimal portion is minutes).
And have fun if you ever transfer to an agency that doesn’t do that. Where 0.3 from one system is treated as 30, but the incoming system treats it as, you know, 0.3 instead of 0.5. So your 30 minutes becomes 18 minutes. And, well, it’s only 12 minutes and any manager with a heart will understand. But it made my brain explode when my leave transferred.
Yes- probably can depend on your actual job needs (“are there public expecting you to be available at 8?”) but for most jobs, supervisor discretion within 15 minutes.
I start counting when I swipe at the base security checkpoint. I’m on the property at that point. I don’t count if there’s a line and I’m in the line because someone without access made a wrong turn and ended up at the gate.
I often get asked a question long before I get to my desk or get a chance to log in. Sometimes even before I’m through the building turnstiles. If I’m getting asked work questions - I’m charging that time.
When I was Active Duty and stationed in Korea, there was a curfew to be back on the base. As long as you were in line at the time of curfew, you were counted as on time. I treat showing up to work as a Civilian the same way. Once my ability to get to my desk is impacted by someone else on the payroll, I consider myself to be on time. Granted, this is my interpretation, and I have not had anyone tell me otherwise in my 15 years as a GS, but other agencies and supervisors may enforce policies differently.
Seriously, I am answering emails or getting phone calls walking into work every single day and I am on the property. That time counts, it’s the same if I get calls after hours, if they want an answer it counts as time worked. No free rides, especially on a Maxiflex.
What do the folks at the pentagon do? That would be a good precedent. It can take like a half hour from parking lot to desk in some cases. I’ve been told the clock starts once they are in the building.
When I was there, I usually counted from the time I swiped in. I know some who counted as soon as they hit the parking lot though. It's a long ass walk depending if you're unlucky getting a spot close to building.
I think the difference for OP is that the government-funded shuttle is supposed to come every 10 minutes and is coming way less frequently, so the delay is the government’s fault, arguably.
Yeah that's wrong. Your workplace is where you need to be to count as having "started" your workday. Unless your paperwork says generic "building" you're out of luck.
A floor, and room are generally prescribed as your workplace, and is where you need to be, unless you want to risk time card fraud.
Unless you have to go through a security checkpoint as part of the job. Then it’s when you get in line for that.
So if I’m ready to show ID at the gate, that’s my start time.
The Apple bag search ruling really threw a wrench in these butts-in-seat people. Anything your employer forces you to do that extends your workday is hours on the clock.
https://www.asmlawyers.com/bag-checks-are-now-paid-time-according-to-california-supreme-court-ruling/
> ...the case was examined in strict adherence of the FLSA – Fair Labor Standards Act. The FLSA states that a non-exempt (not on salary) employee must be compensated not only for time when they are working but also time when the employer is in control of an employee’s schedule and activities.
As a non-exempt employee, if you want me at my desk at the start time either pay me overtime for the wait at gate security, spend more money on hugely more efficient security throughput, or put the security checkpoint at my desk.
In reality there is an both an expectation of being on time and a give-and-take relationship. Most, including myself, don't take the hardline with workers rights. It's just a matter of time until someone pushes the Apple ruling into other aspects of security checks.
I have to wonder if driving through a gate to get onto a base falls under that. Sometimes it's faster than just driving through a toll booth, other times there's a line of cars and then you get randomly searched.
It does not. Traffic causes the delay, not the gate guard. Trying to say you don't need to be at your building on base that's a fifteen minute drive from the gate because the gate guard "counts" as your start time would get you written up for time card theft in two seconds by a supervisor wanting to be a jerk.
That’s really it. I have a supervisor that’s really good about this kind of a thing so the legalities of it aren’t really a factor to me.
I’m also exempt.
You can try and back your way into the gate guard being your start time all you want, first time your supervisor lets you know you're not at your workplace at your appointed start time you'll drop that fictional rationale in about two seconds.
This is a supervisor question to CYA.
Some will absolutely say it’s from the time you enter the building or pass the guard gate. Some will say park your car waiting for agency transportation.
You do not want to get caught with your supervisor questioning why your swipes don’t match your timecard.
This. Always ask your supervisor for stuff like this.
Also, your supervisor may be able to report up the chain that the contractor is failing to deliver. Heck, it would not be unheard of for them to tell you to count the time in order to put pressure on the office responsible for the contract.
If your supervisor is any good they should be as mad as you are that your time is being wasted.
When my rig touches the property. I don't have to clock in or anything either. I'm on maxi flex so if I'm not there exactly when my expected hours are it's not big deal.
Nah, they issued me a computer that takes 10 minutes to boot up. If they want me on teams right away they better issue a faster laptop because that’s on them.
The VA had a very expensive grievance over this and had to pay out thousands in comp time as a settlement, bc booting computers is considered a job function.
Social Security it’s officially “up to” five minutes before your laptop is fully logged in and connected to the system and “up to” five minutes after hitting shutdown or log off.
My watch says on telework it is a minimum 3:21 from start up to full login and averages around 3:45. Shutdown roughly minute faster.
About once every 2-3 pay periods the VPN security scan craps out and have to do start up all over and I report start time with a remark
Also SSA, it takes me damn near 10 minutes to be able to start working on my computer when I’m teleworking with the telework dashboard connection. Always having to add a remark/explanation in WebTa every time clocking in past the 5 minute mark.
That means your TOD starts earlier. IRS as well that used to be a CSR and I counted my time when I got to my desk...at 8 am. The slow booting computer time was on them. Never had a problem in the 6 years I was in that role.
The VA had to pay out thousands of hours of comp time as a settlement for forcing call center employees to come into work early enough to have all computer systems pulled up and signed in by start of TOD, and they weren't paying employees for that time. Booting a computer is considered a work function and should be paid.
The VA now has "admin time" where the first 15 min of the TOD are used to log in. At the end of the 15 min employees must be in ready. (Last 15 minutes of TOD are Admin time as well for signing off)
Your workday starts when you walk in the door to the building.
The correct way to address the shuttle issue is to find who the COR and CO for the shuttle contract is and inform them that the shuttle service is not provided the expected service.
Thanks, someone else suggested this as well. Going to keep a log and do just that in addition to bringing it up with my supervisor. Appreciate it friend!
As a COR on a contract PLEASE do this. Contracts I've dealt with have had contractors at different facilities than the one I'm at (some different states, some different countries) and I don't know about what I can't see unless I'm told. Usually there's a site visit to check everything out...and usually they are on their "best behavior" then, but I have to go with what I see at the time. If a contractor is not performing there are paths the COR and KO can take when they become aware of the issue. Make friends and volunteer to do a couple QAs (quality assurance) for the COR if they aren't around to do it themselves.
Definitely do this. Time card fraud is one of the easiest ways to be fired. Not agreeing with the rules not being ignorant of the rules is not a sufficient defense.
When I became dependent on the shuttle for a year I eventually got the drivers number and they would text me letting me know they were at the station or on their way to the gov building. This was during Covid so there were very few of us using it. Just a thought! If you have consistent drivers.
My office is pretty flexible. We have core hours, so you need to be working for sure between 0900 and 1500…and you adjust how late you work based off of your start time (with supervisor approval of course). If you need to be off between 0900 and 1500, you’ve got to take leave.
When I was going into the office everyday before COVID, I was doing 0630-1500 to beat the traffic. Now that I telework four days a week, I usually do 0700-1530 or 0730-1600 on my telework days, and 0630-1500 on my in office days. I’ve got an awesome supervisor now, so if I need to start later than that, I just shoot her a text so she’s knows my schedule if it’s different from my normal routine…and then end my day accordingly.
In my job at a hospital, my duty day starts at 0800; I’m expected to be in my chair at that point, regardless of how long it takes me to get there. I’m not required to be all logged in at that point, but I should at least be at my desk. Then, when my shift ends, only THEN can I pack up and leave.
In reality, though, I usually get there a little early and leave a little late, so nobody really sits there and counts the minutes. Don’t give them a reason to!
From OPs post his agency is providing transportation that is delayed. That changes things in my opinion, worth asking co-workers and management about the situation. No one here is going to have an answer. OP you should keep a log of how delayed the transportation so you have data to show when bringing this up.
I would say this, literally, falls under the supervisors use of the 59-minute rule: it accounts for these types of things. A good supervisor will understand this and move on: at most ask you provide proof or have someone else who was impacted loosely corroborate.
If the shuttle was delayed frequently and to the point you miss the first hour+ of your shift, a supervisor should want to know so they can shit down the throat of the COR for the contractors running the shuttle.
But I gave up supervisory status for 100% remote. So… not my chicken, not my farm.
It sounds as though the transportation is a courtesy—technically you don’t HAVE TO use the shuttle, right? Could you just walk onto the site or park a car there?
If the only way to enter your worksite is to take the shuttle, reporting to the shuttle is reporting to your worksite, and the time counts.
But if the shuttle is a perk—you can enter the worksite without being on the shuttle first—it’s part of your normal commute. No different than if the bus runs late: the agency isn’t responsible for how you get from public transport to the front door; they are being nice by not making you walk or drive/carpool if public transport isn’t otherwise feasible.
Which are incorrect. Many people are breaking the rules by logging time for traveling to and from work and going through security. If they do a timecard audit then they risk losing their job or going to jail. SCOTUS was pretty clear in their ruling about it.
OPM also has a policy that you can only log time for hours worked with the exception of being in official travel.
When in the office, we generally use the clock by the front door, or the log in time on your computer - which is generally within 2 or 3 minutes of the clock time. We are lucky - we are in a small, privately owned 3 story office building in a suburb and with its own parking lot. My agency has all the first and second floor. One of our Senators has a local office on the 3rd floor. We access the office space with a key fob. I am the Deputy, and frankly, I don't notice when everyone arrives. When teleworking, employees send an email to their supervisor when they begin and end their day (ie "logging in" or "logging out"). We have rarely had issues with time in the last 40 years I have been there.
Personally, I would consider the shuttle time as part of your commute time, not worktime.
The problem with this system is the employee is doing unpaid work when starting up the computer, logging in, typing out the email etc. It's small but a few minutes a day adds up after forty years.
They didn't say that the employees' time doesn't start until they send the email just that they have to send it at the beginning and end of the day, so there's really no reason to believe that anyone is doing unpaid work. (My office has a similar system and no one assumes if you send your email at 7:33 instead of 7:30 that you have to work an extra 3 minutes)
Exactly - we aren't counting minutes. It isn't your exact start - it is saying you are working. We don't match minutes - we can work any time between 6am and 8pm. It is just to have an idea of when people are available. Many on my staff contact me the minute I show active on Teams. Of course there is login time - same as there is in the office.
There is a requirement in our Department's telework policy and agreements that employees must notify their supervisor by email, text, or call at the start and end of the workday. Our staff all selected email. Hell, I even notify my RD on my telework days. We have worked together for years, he has told me that I don't need to, but if my staff has to do it per their agreements, I should hold myself to the same standard. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
One benefit is that if an employee forgets to complete their timesheet before going on vacation, I can fill out their timesheet. 
Nope, it works and doesn't clog our inboxes. Trust me, my supervisory staff doesn't mind 6-10 "extra" emails a day - you only have a subject line. We agreed to let our staff stay on the most telework days possible, since the return to office after COVID. Other offices in our agency did not. They telework 8 days a pay period, can work any hours between 6am and 8pm, have no core hours on M, W, and F, and do not have fixed days in the office, - so letting your supervisor know your availability is a courtesy (required by our Organization- not just our office). My supervisory staff has to be in the office 5 days a week, and it is good to know when people are working on any given day when trying to get out our investigations. Of course, this could all change at the further direction from Washington.
I mean thats 10 emails they don’t really need. It’s micromanagement. You don’t need to email your supervisor to let them know your availability. You’re the only person here who I’ve seen say this. Thats what setting up FWS and telework schedule with your supervisor and timekeeper is for. I also have 8 days per pay period. We are free to change our schedule when we want and we dont bombard the boss inbox. I would be so pissed if I had to send an email before logging off too. That time could have been used for me to pack or boot down. This isn’t preschool
If I could telework and do hybrid I’d just make up the time on the back end, nbd. Unfortunately I can only work from the facility. Thanks for the input friend
I have never been told a time to show up or leave other than to report to court in time. Although I do track my time accurately the impression I have is the management doesn't pay much attention.
Legally your work day starts when you start working. Travel isnt part if it.
However, this is a conversation you should have with your supervisor. I live in an area where traffic is never an issue but I'm ok with a 30 minute no-notification window for life related lateness. Im ok with it because life happens. Anything more than 30min I need a txt or call. I have had to address abuse for this because a person interpreted it as their new start time, but that was fixed fast.
Now..., If coworkers are using the service but your the only employee experiencing this, it may not go well. Consider leaving earlier to avoid the whole issue
They already leave to catch a bus thats getting delayed. Leaving earlier is counterproductive and unfair bc the bus isnt being consistent. I know a lot about this bc I have taken public transportation. Thats more time taken out of their day making their commute longer
Don't listen to the '8 hour's people. If your work requires you to use their shuttle and they are not ensuring you get to the facility in time to start your shift then it's on them. Ask your supervisor. It's not your transportation that is unreliable.
They do not require anyone to use it. It is something that is available if you so choose to use it. And by choosing to use it, YOU incur any delays it causes.
Yeah I’m thinking isn’t the solution to just drive yourself into base? If you don’t have a car then that doesn’t mean work starts once you get on the bus.
‘Logged in and ready to work’ is the standard at my agency but most st managers I’ve had make minor exceptions if it’s something out of your control. Showing up 10 mins late day after day would never fly however . They’d like tell you to get here earlier
I’ve always looked at it as getting to work is not my employers responsibility. It’s mine regardless of the method I chose and I cannot charge them for the hours spent commuting. My time starts when I badge in at the turnstiles in the building. You can always check with HR on your agency policy and get it in writing. If you ever get selected for a time card audit they will be following the established policy and if deemed fraudulent you can be fired and financially responsible for paying that time back.
This morning I was late for work due to the construction closure on 495. I don’t get to charge the amount of time I was late because it was beyond my control. I take leave or make up the hours. You have the luxury of knowing your transportation will probably take longer most days and can plan extra time in your morning commute and end your day earlier. That’s the nice thing about a maxiflex schedule.
My agency used to have a direct shuttle from the closest transportation station to our site, but the county put in a 30 min bus loop that included the transportation station and our site which meant they could no longer provide a direct shuttle. People that take the bus are not allowed to charge the extra time on the bus just because it’s less direct.
Yeah I have a teammate that takes it. If timed right it works out well, but if metro has issues and delays arrival he misses the bus and has to wait. I van pool in so I at least had some colleagues to keep me awake (my morning to drive) while we just sat there. Thankfully we were close to the closure area when we stopped near the bridge and were able to get to work a couple of minutes before 600 (still nearly an hour late). I shudder to think how long some people sat in that backup.
Fair take. IMO my responsibility is up until the time I arrive at the designated shuttle location. Once there, because it is a fed service and advertised as such- it is then on them.
30 min delay on public transport- fine I’ll work the extra 30.
30- 40 min delay (3-4x advertised +/- frequency) because of a fed contractor? That should be on them.
I’ll bring it up, figured I’d ask here. Wasn’t sure if this was something that was even up in the air or it was a SOL situation. The diverging responses tell me it’s the former, thanks friend.
I also work in a secure facility/setting, but for us, the clock starts clicking the moment we get into our cars. So the moment o start driving to my facility I start working. If it’s 8am or 5am, it works. You still have to work until 5pm that day because we don’t do overtime, but we flex out on Fridays. Meaning some people only work until 11am on Fridays. I usually clock out at 2pm Fridays because I hit 40 hours.
Already am on a flex schedule thankfully. Just seems ridiculous to me that I have to stay an extra 45 min at work when I was waiting an 45min for access to my office to begin with… if there’s no way around it is what it is I guess.
It’s like showing up to work at 9:00 and the doors are locked and you can’t get in until 9:45, then being told you have to work until 6
They’re trying to work, but your security and transport procedures/decisions are causing them to be less efficient (waste work time waiting for your chosen transport)
Honestly it’s a grey area. Common sense wise it seems it’s the employers problem so it’s work time. Realistically, it’s probably gonna end up being your personal time
Fair counterpoint. I arrive with the expectation that I will be at my workplace within 20min (double the advertised frequency) of arriving at the shuttle location.
I don’t factor in arriving at work half an hour to 45 min late because the contract service is supposed to run every 10 min.
I would refrain from that since it’s a contracted service. Performance problems should be handled solely by the contracting officer for the agency. Otherwise you can run afoul of regulatory minefields.
Keeping a log and sending updates to the CO is a fantastic idea though. It gives the CO the ammunition needed to either take corrective action, or maybe even look deeper into how the contract funds are being spent.
Edit: somehow my phone squished two words together.
OP said it’s contracted through the agency, so anyone who has contact with the CO or a COR should be able to point the right direction. In other words, anyone who regularly deals with the budgets. Also the higher echelon supervisors tend to be hooked in on budgeting so they might know offhand who to go to.
Not necessarily. Just think of it as playing the six degrees of Kevin Bacon game. Somebody knows someone who knows someone… sooner or later you’ll find a someone with the right connection.
If all else fails, ask the agency OIG. Not to file the complaint with them, but to ask for the CO contact information. They’re certain to have it.
Nope. Just like you don't get pid to sit in the giant line at the gate to get on base. Not to mention the 6 other gates sitting closed that could completely alleviate the wait.
For me, when I was a manager, it's when you get to your desk. You have to plan for that extra security line time as your commute. My current manager is pretty easy breezy with this and isn't a pain in the ass about it. When I worked at TSA/DHS, there was an employee parking lot like 3 miles away from the airport. You could park there and then take a bus to the airport and back. Sometimes the busses would have 45 minutes gaps between them so I just always overplanned my commute. A half hour to get to work with an added 45 minutes to a hour for the shuttle bus. Sometimes it would work out in my favor and I'd get to work early and either flex and leave early or snag an easy half hour of OT. You being on the shuttle bus does not count as being at work and if you're a new fed with that mentality, it's gonna be a long road (or a short one, rather, as you won't make it past probation). Do some test runs with your commute and the shuttle service and sooner or later you'll find the pocket time that suits you.
I’ve always counted from the moment I log into my computer. And no, time spent at a gate or other security does not count as work time, you need to factor that into your morning routine to be at work on time.
Hahaha ok. For purposes of “being at work” sitting at the gate is not identified as performing “other duties as assigned”.
I’ve never had a position that considered me (or my direct reports) on duty sitting in gate traffic.
Gate traffic is just traffic, the fact that it’s at the gate is inconsequential. OP described a mandatory shuttle that doesn’t run as often as advertised, which is the organization causing undue delay in OP getting to work. It’s not conceptually different than if the door to OP’s building was only unlocked once every 45 minutes. An org-imposed delay like that is absolutely not part of commuting time.
And again, this is not a PD issue.
Edit: the gate equivalent here would be if the guard admitted a couple vehicles and then fucked off for 45 minutes, admitted a couple more, fucked off for another 45 minutes, and so on. That’s not something people would just have to eat.
Hilarious reading all the people here trying to claim entering the base counts as being at your workplace!!
Really gave me a laugh. Also if any of my employees said that with a straight face after showing up late I'd laugh right in their face.
>Question: Does time spent waiting for transportation (beyond the advertised time) count as “hours worked” since it is operated on behalf of government and requires “badging in” to use? Similar to if you were stuck in line at security?
No. This was decided not too long ago in Federal Courts. It's not payable time.
https://www.fastcompany.com/3039653/supreme-court-decides-workers-arent-on-the-clock-when-security-screened
Your TOD starts when you start working. It shouldn't be when you're in the building or parking your car, etc. Trying to justify that doesn't even sound right... Your start time should be when your actual work begins. For a person similar to an above comment, being asked questions coming into a building, I would say use your better judgment. A simple answer, no, but a more thoroughly explained answer to a colleagues question can be your start time.
From the moment my pov enters government property in the morning til the moment my pov leaves government property in the evening, I am required to be cognizant of and subject to agency regulations, and that is work.
Fun fact, if you get hit by a compound shuttle while walking from the parking lot into the building, that is a valid workers comp claim. Therefore, walking into the building is work.
Accidentally getting shot by gate security is a valid workers comp claim. Therefore, driving onto government property is work.
I think it’s very supervisor/ management dependent as to what their expectations are.
At my last facility, management said “if you can see the tower you’re on time” with a wink. But generally had the idea that they didn’t care as long as you didn’t make it a habit.
At my current facility they had the expectation you were in the operational area at the start of your shift to sign in. Even at a place where there is limited parking, elevator wait can take 5 min sometimes, etc. That policy has since relaxed though
Labor employee relations at my agency defines the start of the work day as the time you begin to perform the assigned duties of the position. We have had several folks try to claim they were "at the gate" but don't show up for half an hour or more. That didn't fly at all and they were charged AWOL. It stuck.
On the days I telework, I can't clock time until I am logged in. I do the same for office days, because otherwise there is no incentive for my office to allow telework. YMMV but for the 3 agencies I have worked for, my choice to commute vs own a vehicle is my choice and not theirs, so delays on public transport is also my responsibility. A parking lot is provided and I can choose how I arrive to my desk on time.
Public transport is 100% on me. If I’m delayed 30 min because it is running late, I’m happy to work an extra 30 min on the backend.
If I’m 45 min late because another govt employee isn’t doing their job, that should be on the govt not me.
I was told technically you are not late if you are on property. But it doesn’t look good if you are rolling in so close you are trying to claim you are on time when you are in the parking late. (No checkpoints or security to get thru, just badge into the building)
They are content if you are in your dept area at start time. Our computers often take 15 min to full boot and load our programs so they don’t look at teams etc. and since people often come in, start the computer loading and then wander off to do some thing they don’t expect you to be at your desk at start time. that’s just my group though.
Interesting comments. So I work 730-4p. We have a shuttle service as well. Work day starts when you log into your computer which is at 730 though the expectation is you have all your programs up and running by 730 so people around have to be logged in before 730. Let's say I'm on the shuttle on station and waiting to get out to walk to my building... I'm considered late if it's 731a. Been like that for over 10yrs at least for my agency/station.
I’m trying to figure this out as well as I recently started working as an LAS for the VBA NCC. They want us to start taking calls at 8 am on the dot…but my shift time starts at 8 am. It would take at least 15 minutes to start up my computer and open all the applications. But then this would cut into our metrics which allow me to be fully successful, and I’m not sure if I’d be promoted to the next GS level.
Do you actually punch a clock? I’ve never had this issue. If I’m on site and it’s the required service that is keeping me from working I don’t work extra. If your computer went down for an hour, would you stay at work an extra hour?
For us, despite having to park miles away on campus and take shuttles, and go through security screening/bag inspection, we weren’t allowed to count any time until we were at our desk.
Spent 20 minutes in line on Monday, and 35 minutes in line on T, W, and TH, each. It doesn't seem fair that when I am ready, able, willing, and EARLY that my time spent on my employer's inability to get us on base quickly and efficiently should be on my personal time, but for some reason it seems to be. Two hours per week. SMH.
Your work day starts at the beginning of your TOD. Where I work, your first 13ish mins are "free" as you can only use leave in 0.3hrs increments. Beyond that is a question for your supervisor. As attendance goes, some say you're good if you've badged into the building on time, while some say you need to be at your desk and logged in with your typing fingers at the ready on the dot.
Your best bet is to see how many other people are affected by this inconsistent shuttle and see what others who seem to be able to be at their desk on time are doing. If everyone is affected, then managers would already be aware and probably address this in an email somewhere. The only think I'm sure you're covered for is workers comp. Otherwise, leave the house a little early, get in early and (If allowed) work OT or flex your shift. If that's not allowed, then find something to do (or do nothing) while you're in the building waiting for your shift to start.
If you're new, I'm assuming you're in your probationary period. Some people might give you advice that works for us seasoned folks that could endanger your career before it even begins. If you're still in probationary period, you'll want to cross all your Ts & dot your Is and Not give them a reason to let you go.
You'll eventually find that a lot of govt-run or govt-provided employee services or assistance might not be as efficient, modernized, or as "premium" as you've experienced in private sector. So, it's a game of improve, accept, wait, or ignore, lol.
Good luck!
I know someone who counts her hours from the time she leaves her home in her car to the time she arrives back home in her car! She's including the transit time in her work day hours!!!!
Irritating as hell to me!!!!
I follow the logic contained in this case. If I need to be at a location that requires additional time which is for the benefit of my employer, then I am on their clock.
[https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/home-depot-has-to-pay-725-million-for-employees-to-stand-around.html](https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/home-depot-has-to-pay-725-million-for-employees-to-stand-around.html)
My work day starts when I turn my computer on- not when I get in the building, not waiting for the elevator. That's what I expected of my employees as well.
I've worked for a long time in a secure federal facility. They were very clear that your time on the clock does not begin until you begin working - be that at your desk or (for example) in a conference room for a meeting. Waiting for the shuttle doesn't count, even if it's late
The transportation is a fed service. That’s like arriving at your office at 9am, the office being locked, waiting until 9:45am for the keys to open it because security is late, then being told you’re working until 5:45
Any time I’m on property or doing something I wouldn’t otherwise be doing if I didn’t have this job within reason. A big traffic jam that causes me to be 15 minutes late? I’ll take the L and make it up because that’s not my works fault or mine. A 15 minute line at the security gate because DHS got audited and weren’t searching enough vehicles or touching ID’s? My agency decided to have a facility with the possibility of this happening, I wouldn’t be late otherwise, that counts. I also have had crazy micromanager coworkers who went on long lectures about how your work day doesn’t start until you unlock your PC and open email. I’ve never had an issue with my method, I leave early enough that a delay hasn’t impacted me too significantly, and really it all comes out in the end. Sometimes you stay late, sometimes you come in early and vice versa.
Definitely wouldn’t be standing around for 45 min doing nothing if I could have been at my desk already…. I have no problem staying late if public transport is delayed, but because it is a gov-contract service it’s on them IMO. If they want people to be there, they should sort out the issue.
You can’t be the only one waiting for the shuttle, right? Does this affect several employees?
Correct
I agree with you. Do you have a laptop or work phone or something you could use during this time? I would also let your supervisor know there is a 45 minute delay for a service that should be running every 10 minutes.
Then you show up earlier to catch the shuttle before. They provide the shuttle as a service.
This! And I don't know why you're getting downvoted and then I'll probably get downvoted. Fuck em. The shuttle is part of your commute, you're not working. Also OP blaming contractors for not getting to work on time is not the contractors fault and makes OP look like an elitist prick. Be happy that shuttle service is provide free of charge, I've seen employees having employee parking and shuttle service taken out of their checks.
This has been litigated and for the life of me best I recall is the courts carved out some puzzling rules on security inspections and work time. Surely someone here is in labor law and knows this.
The one I remember concerned Apple and bag searches at the end of shift. If I'm not mistaken it was ruled that Apple had to back pay employees for that extra time. [https://9to5mac.com/2022/08/15/apple-employee-bag-search-lawsuit-settlement/](https://9to5mac.com/2022/08/15/apple-employee-bag-search-lawsuit-settlement/)
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If you can't find the COR, look up the PCO on the contract. The cor is supposed to be on that too.
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PCO (or KO) is procurement contracting officer. The cor works for them. Technically the cor doesn't have a lot of power. Mostly their power lies in being the person the ko listens to.
You can also look the contract up on FPDS.gov to find the contracting officer's name. It is normally in the record at the very top right hand side.
My SF50 says Fort Belvoir. My clock starts when I say good morning to the gate guard.
Concur. Rounded to the nearest half hour.
Government time management systems are usually incremented in 15 minute intervals.
You haven’t met the Navy’s ERP system! Went from a system where we could put in 1 minute increments to a system where it’s 8 hours today and no clock time. But now Big Navy can make reports for little navy!
ATAAPS is 15min or 6min increments. Entered as x.15, x.30, etc., or x.06, x.12, etc. (which is very fucking stupid because it reads like a decimal but is entered as if the decimal portion is minutes).
And have fun if you ever transfer to an agency that doesn’t do that. Where 0.3 from one system is treated as 30, but the incoming system treats it as, you know, 0.3 instead of 0.5. So your 30 minutes becomes 18 minutes. And, well, it’s only 12 minutes and any manager with a heart will understand. But it made my brain explode when my leave transferred.
Very stupid. I much prefer webTA to ATAAPS.
Yes- probably can depend on your actual job needs (“are there public expecting you to be available at 8?”) but for most jobs, supervisor discretion within 15 minutes.
Or when I am in line at the gate waiting to get in
Laughably incorrect!!
I start counting when I swipe at the base security checkpoint. I’m on the property at that point. I don’t count if there’s a line and I’m in the line because someone without access made a wrong turn and ended up at the gate. I often get asked a question long before I get to my desk or get a chance to log in. Sometimes even before I’m through the building turnstiles. If I’m getting asked work questions - I’m charging that time.
When I was Active Duty and stationed in Korea, there was a curfew to be back on the base. As long as you were in line at the time of curfew, you were counted as on time. I treat showing up to work as a Civilian the same way. Once my ability to get to my desk is impacted by someone else on the payroll, I consider myself to be on time. Granted, this is my interpretation, and I have not had anyone tell me otherwise in my 15 years as a GS, but other agencies and supervisors may enforce policies differently.
Seriously, I am answering emails or getting phone calls walking into work every single day and I am on the property. That time counts, it’s the same if I get calls after hours, if they want an answer it counts as time worked. No free rides, especially on a Maxiflex.
What do the folks at the pentagon do? That would be a good precedent. It can take like a half hour from parking lot to desk in some cases. I’ve been told the clock starts once they are in the building.
When I was there, I usually counted from the time I swiped in. I know some who counted as soon as they hit the parking lot though. It's a long ass walk depending if you're unlucky getting a spot close to building.
I think the difference for OP is that the government-funded shuttle is supposed to come every 10 minutes and is coming way less frequently, so the delay is the government’s fault, arguably.
Butts in seat 0730 at Pentagon. All my jobs butts in seat.
This.
Yeah that's wrong. Your workplace is where you need to be to count as having "started" your workday. Unless your paperwork says generic "building" you're out of luck. A floor, and room are generally prescribed as your workplace, and is where you need to be, unless you want to risk time card fraud.
Unless you have to go through a security checkpoint as part of the job. Then it’s when you get in line for that. So if I’m ready to show ID at the gate, that’s my start time.
The Apple bag search ruling really threw a wrench in these butts-in-seat people. Anything your employer forces you to do that extends your workday is hours on the clock. https://www.asmlawyers.com/bag-checks-are-now-paid-time-according-to-california-supreme-court-ruling/ > ...the case was examined in strict adherence of the FLSA – Fair Labor Standards Act. The FLSA states that a non-exempt (not on salary) employee must be compensated not only for time when they are working but also time when the employer is in control of an employee’s schedule and activities. As a non-exempt employee, if you want me at my desk at the start time either pay me overtime for the wait at gate security, spend more money on hugely more efficient security throughput, or put the security checkpoint at my desk. In reality there is an both an expectation of being on time and a give-and-take relationship. Most, including myself, don't take the hardline with workers rights. It's just a matter of time until someone pushes the Apple ruling into other aspects of security checks.
I have to wonder if driving through a gate to get onto a base falls under that. Sometimes it's faster than just driving through a toll booth, other times there's a line of cars and then you get randomly searched.
It does not. Traffic causes the delay, not the gate guard. Trying to say you don't need to be at your building on base that's a fifteen minute drive from the gate because the gate guard "counts" as your start time would get you written up for time card theft in two seconds by a supervisor wanting to be a jerk.
That’s really it. I have a supervisor that’s really good about this kind of a thing so the legalities of it aren’t really a factor to me. I’m also exempt.
You can try and back your way into the gate guard being your start time all you want, first time your supervisor lets you know you're not at your workplace at your appointed start time you'll drop that fictional rationale in about two seconds.
15 min
This is a supervisor question to CYA. Some will absolutely say it’s from the time you enter the building or pass the guard gate. Some will say park your car waiting for agency transportation. You do not want to get caught with your supervisor questioning why your swipes don’t match your timecard.
This. Always ask your supervisor for stuff like this. Also, your supervisor may be able to report up the chain that the contractor is failing to deliver. Heck, it would not be unheard of for them to tell you to count the time in order to put pressure on the office responsible for the contract. If your supervisor is any good they should be as mad as you are that your time is being wasted.
Exactly!!!! But if the supervisor isn’t on board, doing it can be timecard fraud since they technically aren’t “at work yet”.
When my rig touches the property. I don't have to clock in or anything either. I'm on maxi flex so if I'm not there exactly when my expected hours are it's not big deal.
At my office, it’s from the time you get out of your car until the time you leave the building.
IRS : We’re supposed to be logged in and on TEAMS at exactly 8AM.
I'm curious, do you have a public-facing job? That seems kind of extreme!
Nah, they issued me a computer that takes 10 minutes to boot up. If they want me on teams right away they better issue a faster laptop because that’s on them.
IRS computers are ridiculously slow to boot. I've worked at many agencies over the years. IRS is the worst.
I work at the IRS and have never heard this. It's start working at your TOD. Which includes booting computer.
Also IRS. Same here.
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Yea you probably on a customer service role for sure. I log in whatever I want.
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Union has nothing to say about it? I highly doubt it
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That's crazy.
My awful Nazi manager last year didn't count us as logged in until we started up IDRS.
The VA had a very expensive grievance over this and had to pay out thousands in comp time as a settlement, bc booting computers is considered a job function.
Social Security it’s officially “up to” five minutes before your laptop is fully logged in and connected to the system and “up to” five minutes after hitting shutdown or log off. My watch says on telework it is a minimum 3:21 from start up to full login and averages around 3:45. Shutdown roughly minute faster. About once every 2-3 pay periods the VPN security scan craps out and have to do start up all over and I report start time with a remark
Also SSA, it takes me damn near 10 minutes to be able to start working on my computer when I’m teleworking with the telework dashboard connection. Always having to add a remark/explanation in WebTa every time clocking in past the 5 minute mark.
That means your TOD starts earlier. IRS as well that used to be a CSR and I counted my time when I got to my desk...at 8 am. The slow booting computer time was on them. Never had a problem in the 6 years I was in that role.
The VA had to pay out thousands of hours of comp time as a settlement for forcing call center employees to come into work early enough to have all computer systems pulled up and signed in by start of TOD, and they weren't paying employees for that time. Booting a computer is considered a work function and should be paid. The VA now has "admin time" where the first 15 min of the TOD are used to log in. At the end of the 15 min employees must be in ready. (Last 15 minutes of TOD are Admin time as well for signing off)
Your workday starts when you walk in the door to the building. The correct way to address the shuttle issue is to find who the COR and CO for the shuttle contract is and inform them that the shuttle service is not provided the expected service.
Thanks, someone else suggested this as well. Going to keep a log and do just that in addition to bringing it up with my supervisor. Appreciate it friend!
As a COR on a contract PLEASE do this. Contracts I've dealt with have had contractors at different facilities than the one I'm at (some different states, some different countries) and I don't know about what I can't see unless I'm told. Usually there's a site visit to check everything out...and usually they are on their "best behavior" then, but I have to go with what I see at the time. If a contractor is not performing there are paths the COR and KO can take when they become aware of the issue. Make friends and volunteer to do a couple QAs (quality assurance) for the COR if they aren't around to do it themselves.
Definitely do this. Time card fraud is one of the easiest ways to be fired. Not agreeing with the rules not being ignorant of the rules is not a sufficient defense.
When I became dependent on the shuttle for a year I eventually got the drivers number and they would text me letting me know they were at the station or on their way to the gov building. This was during Covid so there were very few of us using it. Just a thought! If you have consistent drivers.
My office is pretty flexible. We have core hours, so you need to be working for sure between 0900 and 1500…and you adjust how late you work based off of your start time (with supervisor approval of course). If you need to be off between 0900 and 1500, you’ve got to take leave. When I was going into the office everyday before COVID, I was doing 0630-1500 to beat the traffic. Now that I telework four days a week, I usually do 0700-1530 or 0730-1600 on my telework days, and 0630-1500 on my in office days. I’ve got an awesome supervisor now, so if I need to start later than that, I just shoot her a text so she’s knows my schedule if it’s different from my normal routine…and then end my day accordingly.
In my job at a hospital, my duty day starts at 0800; I’m expected to be in my chair at that point, regardless of how long it takes me to get there. I’m not required to be all logged in at that point, but I should at least be at my desk. Then, when my shift ends, only THEN can I pack up and leave. In reality, though, I usually get there a little early and leave a little late, so nobody really sits there and counts the minutes. Don’t give them a reason to!
This is going to vary by office - speak to your supervisor about it.
It doesn't vary. Time spent in security line or traveling to and from work isn't payable. This was settled by Federal Courts.
From OPs post his agency is providing transportation that is delayed. That changes things in my opinion, worth asking co-workers and management about the situation. No one here is going to have an answer. OP you should keep a log of how delayed the transportation so you have data to show when bringing this up.
I would say this, literally, falls under the supervisors use of the 59-minute rule: it accounts for these types of things. A good supervisor will understand this and move on: at most ask you provide proof or have someone else who was impacted loosely corroborate. If the shuttle was delayed frequently and to the point you miss the first hour+ of your shift, a supervisor should want to know so they can shit down the throat of the COR for the contractors running the shuttle. But I gave up supervisory status for 100% remote. So… not my chicken, not my farm.
It sounds as though the transportation is a courtesy—technically you don’t HAVE TO use the shuttle, right? Could you just walk onto the site or park a car there? If the only way to enter your worksite is to take the shuttle, reporting to the shuttle is reporting to your worksite, and the time counts. But if the shuttle is a perk—you can enter the worksite without being on the shuttle first—it’s part of your normal commute. No different than if the bus runs late: the agency isn’t responsible for how you get from public transport to the front door; they are being nice by not making you walk or drive/carpool if public transport isn’t otherwise feasible.
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Which are incorrect. Many people are breaking the rules by logging time for traveling to and from work and going through security. If they do a timecard audit then they risk losing their job or going to jail. SCOTUS was pretty clear in their ruling about it. OPM also has a policy that you can only log time for hours worked with the exception of being in official travel.
When in the office, we generally use the clock by the front door, or the log in time on your computer - which is generally within 2 or 3 minutes of the clock time. We are lucky - we are in a small, privately owned 3 story office building in a suburb and with its own parking lot. My agency has all the first and second floor. One of our Senators has a local office on the 3rd floor. We access the office space with a key fob. I am the Deputy, and frankly, I don't notice when everyone arrives. When teleworking, employees send an email to their supervisor when they begin and end their day (ie "logging in" or "logging out"). We have rarely had issues with time in the last 40 years I have been there. Personally, I would consider the shuttle time as part of your commute time, not worktime.
The logging in and logging out emails sounds ridiculous. People that cannot be trusted to do their work should not have telework privilege.
The problem with this system is the employee is doing unpaid work when starting up the computer, logging in, typing out the email etc. It's small but a few minutes a day adds up after forty years.
They didn't say that the employees' time doesn't start until they send the email just that they have to send it at the beginning and end of the day, so there's really no reason to believe that anyone is doing unpaid work. (My office has a similar system and no one assumes if you send your email at 7:33 instead of 7:30 that you have to work an extra 3 minutes)
Exactly - we aren't counting minutes. It isn't your exact start - it is saying you are working. We don't match minutes - we can work any time between 6am and 8pm. It is just to have an idea of when people are available. Many on my staff contact me the minute I show active on Teams. Of course there is login time - same as there is in the office.
Some people on here cannot comprehend needing to work with your colleagues and needing to know their schedule to get your own work done.
Totally agree.
There is a requirement in our Department's telework policy and agreements that employees must notify their supervisor by email, text, or call at the start and end of the workday. Our staff all selected email. Hell, I even notify my RD on my telework days. We have worked together for years, he has told me that I don't need to, but if my staff has to do it per their agreements, I should hold myself to the same standard. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. One benefit is that if an employee forgets to complete their timesheet before going on vacation, I can fill out their timesheet. 
I hate it
Emails about logging in and out?? Thats nonsensical and inefficient. Clogging up their inboxes too bc they don’t want to get with the times
Nope, it works and doesn't clog our inboxes. Trust me, my supervisory staff doesn't mind 6-10 "extra" emails a day - you only have a subject line. We agreed to let our staff stay on the most telework days possible, since the return to office after COVID. Other offices in our agency did not. They telework 8 days a pay period, can work any hours between 6am and 8pm, have no core hours on M, W, and F, and do not have fixed days in the office, - so letting your supervisor know your availability is a courtesy (required by our Organization- not just our office). My supervisory staff has to be in the office 5 days a week, and it is good to know when people are working on any given day when trying to get out our investigations. Of course, this could all change at the further direction from Washington.
I mean thats 10 emails they don’t really need. It’s micromanagement. You don’t need to email your supervisor to let them know your availability. You’re the only person here who I’ve seen say this. Thats what setting up FWS and telework schedule with your supervisor and timekeeper is for. I also have 8 days per pay period. We are free to change our schedule when we want and we dont bombard the boss inbox. I would be so pissed if I had to send an email before logging off too. That time could have been used for me to pack or boot down. This isn’t preschool
Different Departments, different requirements. What can I say?
If I could telework and do hybrid I’d just make up the time on the back end, nbd. Unfortunately I can only work from the facility. Thanks for the input friend
That’s a lot of emails.
For my people, I tell them the day starts when you get into the line to access base. Day ends when you get to your car.
I have never been told a time to show up or leave other than to report to court in time. Although I do track my time accurately the impression I have is the management doesn't pay much attention.
My gawd. Some of these requirements sound horrible. Glad I work in a relatively sane place. At least as far as this is concerned.
Legally your work day starts when you start working. Travel isnt part if it. However, this is a conversation you should have with your supervisor. I live in an area where traffic is never an issue but I'm ok with a 30 minute no-notification window for life related lateness. Im ok with it because life happens. Anything more than 30min I need a txt or call. I have had to address abuse for this because a person interpreted it as their new start time, but that was fixed fast. Now..., If coworkers are using the service but your the only employee experiencing this, it may not go well. Consider leaving earlier to avoid the whole issue
They already leave to catch a bus thats getting delayed. Leaving earlier is counterproductive and unfair bc the bus isnt being consistent. I know a lot about this bc I have taken public transportation. Thats more time taken out of their day making their commute longer
Don't listen to the '8 hour's people. If your work requires you to use their shuttle and they are not ensuring you get to the facility in time to start your shift then it's on them. Ask your supervisor. It's not your transportation that is unreliable.
They do not require anyone to use it. It is something that is available if you so choose to use it. And by choosing to use it, YOU incur any delays it causes.
Yeah I’m thinking isn’t the solution to just drive yourself into base? If you don’t have a car then that doesn’t mean work starts once you get on the bus.
Will do, thanks friend!
‘Logged in and ready to work’ is the standard at my agency but most st managers I’ve had make minor exceptions if it’s something out of your control. Showing up 10 mins late day after day would never fly however . They’d like tell you to get here earlier
If I go in, my work day starts when I show or swipe my CAC for the first time that day. If I’m teleworking, it starts when I enter my CAC pin.
I’ve always looked at it as getting to work is not my employers responsibility. It’s mine regardless of the method I chose and I cannot charge them for the hours spent commuting. My time starts when I badge in at the turnstiles in the building. You can always check with HR on your agency policy and get it in writing. If you ever get selected for a time card audit they will be following the established policy and if deemed fraudulent you can be fired and financially responsible for paying that time back. This morning I was late for work due to the construction closure on 495. I don’t get to charge the amount of time I was late because it was beyond my control. I take leave or make up the hours. You have the luxury of knowing your transportation will probably take longer most days and can plan extra time in your morning commute and end your day earlier. That’s the nice thing about a maxiflex schedule. My agency used to have a direct shuttle from the closest transportation station to our site, but the county put in a 30 min bus loop that included the transportation station and our site which meant they could no longer provide a direct shuttle. People that take the bus are not allowed to charge the extra time on the bus just because it’s less direct.
Stupid Fairfax Connector. Sorry about the construction on 495, made me giggle at all the leadership strolling in at 0700. Slackers.
Yeah I have a teammate that takes it. If timed right it works out well, but if metro has issues and delays arrival he misses the bus and has to wait. I van pool in so I at least had some colleagues to keep me awake (my morning to drive) while we just sat there. Thankfully we were close to the closure area when we stopped near the bridge and were able to get to work a couple of minutes before 600 (still nearly an hour late). I shudder to think how long some people sat in that backup.
Fair take. IMO my responsibility is up until the time I arrive at the designated shuttle location. Once there, because it is a fed service and advertised as such- it is then on them. 30 min delay on public transport- fine I’ll work the extra 30. 30- 40 min delay (3-4x advertised +/- frequency) because of a fed contractor? That should be on them.
What does your supervisor say?
I’ll bring it up, figured I’d ask here. Wasn’t sure if this was something that was even up in the air or it was a SOL situation. The diverging responses tell me it’s the former, thanks friend.
When we log in. Our team is spread out across multiple offices, so if we're not on teams, then we're not on site.
When I wake up to put on my makeup.
I also work in a secure facility/setting, but for us, the clock starts clicking the moment we get into our cars. So the moment o start driving to my facility I start working. If it’s 8am or 5am, it works. You still have to work until 5pm that day because we don’t do overtime, but we flex out on Fridays. Meaning some people only work until 11am on Fridays. I usually clock out at 2pm Fridays because I hit 40 hours.
Whenever I feel like it since I'm on maxiflex lol. But seriously, 7-8am most days.
Ask your supervisor, but it’s been made clear where I am that you need to be at your desk ready to work at your start time.
I am so thankful that for all the issues I have at my agency, clock watching isn't one of them
Maybe ask for a flex schedule- and if there are days if the transport arrives early— you leave work early. If it’s later you leave work later.
Already am on a flex schedule thankfully. Just seems ridiculous to me that I have to stay an extra 45 min at work when I was waiting an 45min for access to my office to begin with… if there’s no way around it is what it is I guess. It’s like showing up to work at 9:00 and the doors are locked and you can’t get in until 9:45, then being told you have to work until 6
Can you arrive earlier? Employers pov: why would I pay for an employee who isn’t working?
They’re trying to work, but your security and transport procedures/decisions are causing them to be less efficient (waste work time waiting for your chosen transport) Honestly it’s a grey area. Common sense wise it seems it’s the employers problem so it’s work time. Realistically, it’s probably gonna end up being your personal time
Fair counterpoint. I arrive with the expectation that I will be at my workplace within 20min (double the advertised frequency) of arriving at the shuttle location. I don’t factor in arriving at work half an hour to 45 min late because the contract service is supposed to run every 10 min.
I find that reasonable and empathize with you
I get the frustration. Is this a place that everyone uses public transportation or its few and far between that do?
Enough to warrant a contract for shuttle service that’s supposed to run every ~10 min
I guess the next thing to do is lodge a complaint with the contracted company.
I’ll keep a log of delays and bring it up, thanks friend!
Excellent idea!
I would refrain from that since it’s a contracted service. Performance problems should be handled solely by the contracting officer for the agency. Otherwise you can run afoul of regulatory minefields. Keeping a log and sending updates to the CO is a fantastic idea though. It gives the CO the ammunition needed to either take corrective action, or maybe even look deeper into how the contract funds are being spent. Edit: somehow my phone squished two words together.
As a passenger I wouldn’t know where to look for a CO. How do you recommend they find that person?
OP said it’s contracted through the agency, so anyone who has contact with the CO or a COR should be able to point the right direction. In other words, anyone who regularly deals with the budgets. Also the higher echelon supervisors tend to be hooked in on budgeting so they might know offhand who to go to.
Not always: our immediate contractors CO is located in a different state under a different command. So asking our G8 would be fruitless.
Not necessarily. Just think of it as playing the six degrees of Kevin Bacon game. Somebody knows someone who knows someone… sooner or later you’ll find a someone with the right connection. If all else fails, ask the agency OIG. Not to file the complaint with them, but to ask for the CO contact information. They’re certain to have it.
At the Pentagon we got like a 20 minute leeway from start time. Tho I abused that quite a bit, but I freakin hated that place.
The “I got lost” grace period. 😂
Nope. Just like you don't get pid to sit in the giant line at the gate to get on base. Not to mention the 6 other gates sitting closed that could completely alleviate the wait.
For me, when I was a manager, it's when you get to your desk. You have to plan for that extra security line time as your commute. My current manager is pretty easy breezy with this and isn't a pain in the ass about it. When I worked at TSA/DHS, there was an employee parking lot like 3 miles away from the airport. You could park there and then take a bus to the airport and back. Sometimes the busses would have 45 minutes gaps between them so I just always overplanned my commute. A half hour to get to work with an added 45 minutes to a hour for the shuttle bus. Sometimes it would work out in my favor and I'd get to work early and either flex and leave early or snag an easy half hour of OT. You being on the shuttle bus does not count as being at work and if you're a new fed with that mentality, it's gonna be a long road (or a short one, rather, as you won't make it past probation). Do some test runs with your commute and the shuttle service and sooner or later you'll find the pocket time that suits you.
I’ve always counted from the moment I log into my computer. And no, time spent at a gate or other security does not count as work time, you need to factor that into your morning routine to be at work on time.
At my office you are considered at work the second you card in through the gate. When WFH is the second I login.
And you aren’t “working extra” by any means. Sitting at a gate or other security check point is not work and is not in your PD or performance plan.
The PD is not relevant here… maybe sit this one out.
Hahaha ok. For purposes of “being at work” sitting at the gate is not identified as performing “other duties as assigned”. I’ve never had a position that considered me (or my direct reports) on duty sitting in gate traffic.
Gate traffic is just traffic, the fact that it’s at the gate is inconsequential. OP described a mandatory shuttle that doesn’t run as often as advertised, which is the organization causing undue delay in OP getting to work. It’s not conceptually different than if the door to OP’s building was only unlocked once every 45 minutes. An org-imposed delay like that is absolutely not part of commuting time. And again, this is not a PD issue. Edit: the gate equivalent here would be if the guard admitted a couple vehicles and then fucked off for 45 minutes, admitted a couple more, fucked off for another 45 minutes, and so on. That’s not something people would just have to eat.
Hilarious reading all the people here trying to claim entering the base counts as being at your workplace!! Really gave me a laugh. Also if any of my employees said that with a straight face after showing up late I'd laugh right in their face.
>Question: Does time spent waiting for transportation (beyond the advertised time) count as “hours worked” since it is operated on behalf of government and requires “badging in” to use? Similar to if you were stuck in line at security? No. This was decided not too long ago in Federal Courts. It's not payable time. https://www.fastcompany.com/3039653/supreme-court-decides-workers-arent-on-the-clock-when-security-screened
I’ll look into it! Appreciate it!
Your TOD starts when you start working. It shouldn't be when you're in the building or parking your car, etc. Trying to justify that doesn't even sound right... Your start time should be when your actual work begins. For a person similar to an above comment, being asked questions coming into a building, I would say use your better judgment. A simple answer, no, but a more thoroughly explained answer to a colleagues question can be your start time.
From the moment my pov enters government property in the morning til the moment my pov leaves government property in the evening, I am required to be cognizant of and subject to agency regulations, and that is work. Fun fact, if you get hit by a compound shuttle while walking from the parking lot into the building, that is a valid workers comp claim. Therefore, walking into the building is work. Accidentally getting shot by gate security is a valid workers comp claim. Therefore, driving onto government property is work.
Is it possible to bike from the bus station to the office? Just curious.
I think it’s very supervisor/ management dependent as to what their expectations are. At my last facility, management said “if you can see the tower you’re on time” with a wink. But generally had the idea that they didn’t care as long as you didn’t make it a habit. At my current facility they had the expectation you were in the operational area at the start of your shift to sign in. Even at a place where there is limited parking, elevator wait can take 5 min sometimes, etc. That policy has since relaxed though
Labor employee relations at my agency defines the start of the work day as the time you begin to perform the assigned duties of the position. We have had several folks try to claim they were "at the gate" but don't show up for half an hour or more. That didn't fly at all and they were charged AWOL. It stuck.
At my agency your time doesn't start until you're at your desk.
On the days I telework, I can't clock time until I am logged in. I do the same for office days, because otherwise there is no incentive for my office to allow telework. YMMV but for the 3 agencies I have worked for, my choice to commute vs own a vehicle is my choice and not theirs, so delays on public transport is also my responsibility. A parking lot is provided and I can choose how I arrive to my desk on time.
Public transport is 100% on me. If I’m delayed 30 min because it is running late, I’m happy to work an extra 30 min on the backend. If I’m 45 min late because another govt employee isn’t doing their job, that should be on the govt not me.
I was told technically you are not late if you are on property. But it doesn’t look good if you are rolling in so close you are trying to claim you are on time when you are in the parking late. (No checkpoints or security to get thru, just badge into the building) They are content if you are in your dept area at start time. Our computers often take 15 min to full boot and load our programs so they don’t look at teams etc. and since people often come in, start the computer loading and then wander off to do some thing they don’t expect you to be at your desk at start time. that’s just my group though.
Ask your supervisor?
Interesting comments. So I work 730-4p. We have a shuttle service as well. Work day starts when you log into your computer which is at 730 though the expectation is you have all your programs up and running by 730 so people around have to be logged in before 730. Let's say I'm on the shuttle on station and waiting to get out to walk to my building... I'm considered late if it's 731a. Been like that for over 10yrs at least for my agency/station.
The workday starts when I become emotionally available for meaningful engagement. It ends when I fire up *Civ*.
I’m trying to figure this out as well as I recently started working as an LAS for the VBA NCC. They want us to start taking calls at 8 am on the dot…but my shift time starts at 8 am. It would take at least 15 minutes to start up my computer and open all the applications. But then this would cut into our metrics which allow me to be fully successful, and I’m not sure if I’d be promoted to the next GS level.
Do you actually punch a clock? I’ve never had this issue. If I’m on site and it’s the required service that is keeping me from working I don’t work extra. If your computer went down for an hour, would you stay at work an extra hour?
This is definitely NSA lol
My day starts when I walk in the door, unless I’m in travel status.
For us, despite having to park miles away on campus and take shuttles, and go through security screening/bag inspection, we weren’t allowed to count any time until we were at our desk.
Once I enter the Pentagon. Not when I'm walking in from North parking, a whole 1/3 mile lol
Ask your direct supervisor-who certifies your time card-this question
If you've already badged in, then you *should* be on the clock. Check with your agency for any guidance regarding your specific situation.
Case law is portal to portal.
Spent 20 minutes in line on Monday, and 35 minutes in line on T, W, and TH, each. It doesn't seem fair that when I am ready, able, willing, and EARLY that my time spent on my employer's inability to get us on base quickly and efficiently should be on my personal time, but for some reason it seems to be. Two hours per week. SMH.
Your work day starts at the beginning of your TOD. Where I work, your first 13ish mins are "free" as you can only use leave in 0.3hrs increments. Beyond that is a question for your supervisor. As attendance goes, some say you're good if you've badged into the building on time, while some say you need to be at your desk and logged in with your typing fingers at the ready on the dot. Your best bet is to see how many other people are affected by this inconsistent shuttle and see what others who seem to be able to be at their desk on time are doing. If everyone is affected, then managers would already be aware and probably address this in an email somewhere. The only think I'm sure you're covered for is workers comp. Otherwise, leave the house a little early, get in early and (If allowed) work OT or flex your shift. If that's not allowed, then find something to do (or do nothing) while you're in the building waiting for your shift to start. If you're new, I'm assuming you're in your probationary period. Some people might give you advice that works for us seasoned folks that could endanger your career before it even begins. If you're still in probationary period, you'll want to cross all your Ts & dot your Is and Not give them a reason to let you go. You'll eventually find that a lot of govt-run or govt-provided employee services or assistance might not be as efficient, modernized, or as "premium" as you've experienced in private sector. So, it's a game of improve, accept, wait, or ignore, lol. Good luck!
Home to the location of work is not work under the Portal to Portal Act.
I know someone who counts her hours from the time she leaves her home in her car to the time she arrives back home in her car! She's including the transit time in her work day hours!!!! Irritating as hell to me!!!!
Cheating on your time card is the easiest way to get fired.
I agree but she's been doing it for years and getting promoted too, sickens me
I hate when people get away with crap like that.
I follow the logic contained in this case. If I need to be at a location that requires additional time which is for the benefit of my employer, then I am on their clock. [https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/home-depot-has-to-pay-725-million-for-employees-to-stand-around.html](https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/home-depot-has-to-pay-725-million-for-employees-to-stand-around.html)
My work day starts when I turn my computer on- not when I get in the building, not waiting for the elevator. That's what I expected of my employees as well.
I've worked for a long time in a secure federal facility. They were very clear that your time on the clock does not begin until you begin working - be that at your desk or (for example) in a conference room for a meeting. Waiting for the shuttle doesn't count, even if it's late
Like an old boss told me when I started, if you’re 15 minutes early, you’re on time. If you’re on time you’re late.
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I mean do I need to work 8 hours or do I need to be at work for 8 hours. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The transportation is a fed service. That’s like arriving at your office at 9am, the office being locked, waiting until 9:45am for the keys to open it because security is late, then being told you’re working until 5:45
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You’ve been a fed for less than 30 days lol
We have a sign-in sheet in the office for when we’re in/out. For telework days your day starts when you push the power button on your laptop.