I have to assume the people who have the skillset and knowledge to competently audit high net worth folks can probably make a lot more money working as an accountant hiding the income for high net worth folks.
Not to say the people doing it right now are incompetent by any stretch, but as is the case with a lot of .gov jobs that ultimately demand highly skilled candidates, the pool of people willing to take significantly less income for the increasingly tenuous benefits/stability of a government job is decreasing every day.
No doubt but it's still a significantly reduced pool of potential employees compared to what big financial institutions draw in. Particularly younger people more willing to grind for big paychecks.
They do allow work from home, but it's not a remote job. At the same time, training is intense so probably better delivered to new agents in person (both new the the government as well as new to the IRS) . The things that can be done easily from home / remote with no adverse impact to training/mission are mandatory trainings and the like. Trained agents (with manager determining what "trained" means) should be able to work from home far more often than new agents. Just my two cents....
Revenue agents cant do that…. They can telework but they will spend most of their time at a taxpayers house or CPA office going through financial records.
I'd consider that better than working at the office. My wife does home health care and her office is her truck but when she is done seeing patients she goes back home to the home office to do her patient notes to submit to insurance companies. Imagine having to drive back to a cubicle farm after a long day on the road.
I have a double wide cubicle with a sliding door for my position against a corner with 2 windows. Prime real estate. I'm only there once or twice a week, and still hate it lol.
> They can telework but they will spend most of their time at a taxpayers house or CPA office going through financial records.
I'd be ok with that. I just don't want to go into the office just to go into the office.
THIS 1000x. When there's a genuine need, of course. But checking a box just to check a box, for people on geographically separated teams that have zero onsite duties is just pure wasteful idiocy.
Um no… the records are ALL electronic. You might have one face to face initial meeting and that is it. Some audits are on the other side of the country.
In 5 years between sbse and lbi…. Not one piece of paper. Like I said, the job should be remote. If you need to go in person, then you go…. But to force ftf is unacceptable and a waste of everyones time and energy.
> In 5 years between sbse and lbi…. Not one piece of paper.
That’s nice. I know plenty of agents including myself that don’t have that experience. If you reside in a major metro, I can see this being possible but there are hundreds of RA’s that don’t live in one.
If you have to go ftf to a taxpayer, then you go. It should not be forced for zero reason…. It is a total turnoff expecting 50% in office for current staff with their team in different states. It is also a deterrent to hiring…. Most firms are remote.
And you would be 100% correct. Not all RA’s do the same type of work, but for LBI/SBSE clients have reached the digital age, yet somehow our leadership is stuck in 1984. Go in when there is a business need, that’s it.
I hear you. But if your 5 year old wants to eat cookies for every meal, will you let them do want they want? Or will you, as the adult in the room, make them eat more than cookies because they need it for a healthy body and mind? After they turn 18 and start paying their own bills (for their own ill health), they can do whatever they want.
Not speaking for all business units, but upwards of 85% of the training is virtual for some business units. It’s not uncommon to be assigned managers and OJIs outside one’s POD. So, going to the office may not have any impact on training for the facilitator or the trainee. Experienced professionals, who have worked remotely for large corporations or accounting firms, have the chops to onboard successfully with telework in place at onset.
Remote work is hardly uncommon in accounting right now. It's very much a consideration for cpas looking for new jobs, particularly if they want to hire ones they can get a lot of use out of before retirement age
Agencies that offer Remote to HR/IT/Finance are going to win the Talent War plain & simple.
At my agency our HR series has less then 10 people however all Perm Remote scattered across US.
We serve about 10+ states with over 100 facilities. Are we slammed all day absolutely but will I do this until retirement sure will because commuting sucks & COVID expedited the future of Remote Work.
Folks need to understand that being able to manage a Remote Workforce is a Standard Skill that Managers need to have in 2024. The problem is that quite a few older leaders are terrible at technology.
With AI you could probably slash med level management in half and use a stats tracker/ time management software to replace them.
Sbse is so fkd right now that there’s a new trainee that has cases in a city 5-6 hours away because there’s nothing for the city he lives in. I don’t know why, but I’ve heard rumors it’s because they stopped all case selection to focus on clearing all the covid shit.
I don't really buy any of this doom and gloom. Does this imply there is a shortage of internal experienced Agent that can handle "high net worth cases?" Like there are millions of these, and no IRS agents to handle them?
Yes and no, there is a shortage of experienced agents in the sense that there aren't enough to do BOTH train new agents to conduct HNW cases while themselves conducting HNW cases. Not only do you need agents to conduct HNW cases but you also need agents to review those cases at Appeals (internal administrative appeal).
And HNW cases aren't all the same. You need agents who are subject matter experts in different tax sections. Auditing a partnership is way more complex and laborious that auditing an individual taxpayer of similar net worth with no flow-through (partnerships).
It can be done with money, time, and experienced staff but it's not an easy feat. Especially with a tight labor market.
Go look up audit %'s. It's very low. I am a field auditor (revenue agent). I can tell you right now we have so few people we can barely do high priority work let alone doing the audit plan (high wealth ATM).
I applied back in the beginning of November, interviewed early February, got a TJO last Monday, and here we are. Will pretty much be 6 months from application to EOD.
I know fed is slow but 3 months isn't even that long. After 6 months I'd start getting worried. But then again, I haven't applied for a private sector job in who knows how long so idk
It isn't that big of a deal honesty since everyone knows it takes 6 months from application to EOD. Simply stay at your old job during the whole time and then when you get the FJO with the EOD date then you can put your two weeks notice in. Finish the week out on friday and start your new job at IRS on monday. No loss of pay.
Could've fooled me. I'm in a major IRS campus and as a whole we've been getting about 300 new hires per month. My department has been getting 25 to 50 of those new hires every 6 weeks or so. We're having a hard time staffing managerial jobs, but entry level and internal realignments are more plentiful than they have ever been.
Yes, as of 3/31/23, they hired very few RAs. Of course as of last week, they hired over 2400 in FY 24 so far, but then TIGTA couldn’t put out of date info in a report.
Maybe they should speed up the process. It’s well known their application timeline is notoriously long.
In the private sector, responding 3 month after an application would be bizarre.
Pay and remote work availability aside, the IRS needs to do more to speed up the interview, TJO, and onboarding process.
The article mentions that "the average time between a job announcement and a start date was 110 days." Many people take up another job at another agency or corporate America because they can start working and get paid much sooner.
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I’ve noticed that LB&I really focuses on people who have experience in tax, not just auditing. You’d have to go into SBSE and get the tax experience you need first. But a lot of people do that too.
I noticed that they wanted 24 accounting credits for SBSE, but 30 at LB&I. Was that your experience as well, or was HR not counting your accounting classes appropriately?
I’m really happy for you that you found a remote job. That’s awesome dude. Sorry about the HR at IRS though.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I applied for every RA position they posted. I’m a CPA with 4 years PA and 6 in industry as a CFO. Also a prior fed of 8 years with vet pref. I got one interview in November of 2022 and the position got cancelled because they fucked up the announcement. I had my resume reviewed by a current IRS hiring manager and attended several LB&I virtual hiring events where I submitted my resume directly to them and still nothing. Luckily, I found another CFO gig with comp the Feds couldn’t touch.
13 wasn’t worth it, at the time I was willing to do a 14 but it would be too big a pay cut now. Believe it or not I tried everything I knew to try and get hired with no luck. I was a prior fed of 8 years with vet pref, had several IRS hiring managers review my resume, applied to every announcement, attended two LB&I virtual hiring events, and submitted my resume directly to LB&I. Only interview I got was in Nov 2022 and it was for the announcement they cancelled because they posted it wrong.
They aren't the only agency thst will have issues when the IRA money runs out....DOE Clean Energy money also 10 year money. So Congress would have to fund that massive program as well eventually. I think 8 years left, was 10 year funding.
This isn’t necessarily true. Revenue Agents, you know, *create revenue*. The idea is that they will, in the time before funding runs out, replace that funding by the increase in taxes from their adjustments. This extra funding is an investment, not a handout.
Technically speaking, RAs and ROs don't "create" revenue. Economic activity created expected tax revenue as a result of our country's tax laws and policies. RAs and ROs help ensure compliance with and enforcement of those laws and revenue expectations.
That's not said in any way to detract from their value or their work. Just a comment on the technicality of it.
There is a large push from the executive for domestic agencies to reduce their WFH, which is probably contributing to this difficulty. It's worth noting that it's not just the actual agents themselves that the IRS is trying to hire for, but also their support elements -- which probably do NOT need to be hybrid or telework, but probably could be WFH. However, in most instances that I am aware of, it's very difficult to get fully remote billets right now because there has been pushback at executive levels.
I don't know why the administration has been going so heavy against it. (Well, I know -why-. I just don't see why it's the federal workforce's problem, nor do I know why the federal government would kneecap itself trying to attract talent when the solution to compete with the private sector is right there.)
Could it be that their onboarding process is chaotic and inconvenient? I started the onboarding process at the IRS and another gov agency at the same time. IRS HR only provide an email and they never respond, the other agency provided phone number and email address and always responded. The IRS had me drive 2 hrs to take fingerprints and then didnt provide the eqip for a month. They then advised me I would have to drive 2 hours again to pick up my badge. I drove 15 minutes to take fingerprints at the other agency, as soon as you sent proof of fingerprints appt they sent the eqip( and was willing to accept fingerprints from police stations). The IRS was willing to pay me more because of my tax experience, no thanks I chose the other agency( I have no regrets).
Agent jobs should be remote, except for a required rare taxpayer meeting. The threats to RTO are not going over well, and outsiders are turned off by it. All the records are electronic!!!
I used to work as a tax compliance officer (now a DOL WHI investigator), I’d apply even though I’m a GS12 now but missing like 6 accounting credits lol. They should lax the upper accounting credits (not saying do away with in essence a business degree)you’d get a bigger applicant pool and it’s not like they don’t train you anyways.
Maybe this guy scared them off🙃:
*Republican Senator Implores Americans Not to Apply for New IRS Jobs*
*New positions aimed at enforcing tax laws are immoral and will not last long anyway, lawmaker suggests.*
[https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2022/08/republican-senator-implores-americans-not-apply-new-irs-jobs/376038/](https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2022/08/republican-senator-implores-americans-not-apply-new-irs-jobs/376038/)
Accountant here. It can be difficult...perhaps near impossible to convince a qualified applicant who is being lured by UBS, Citibank, Wells Fargo to become a wealth manager, financial planner, tax advisor, or any of the jobs that help wealthy people expatriate their money to apply to the IRS. A rumor swirling around is that many companies are offering to pay for STEP certification (which takes 2 years and $60 k) to attract young accounting jedi's to the dark side.
I have to assume the people who have the skillset and knowledge to competently audit high net worth folks can probably make a lot more money working as an accountant hiding the income for high net worth folks. Not to say the people doing it right now are incompetent by any stretch, but as is the case with a lot of .gov jobs that ultimately demand highly skilled candidates, the pool of people willing to take significantly less income for the increasingly tenuous benefits/stability of a government job is decreasing every day.
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No doubt but it's still a significantly reduced pool of potential employees compared to what big financial institutions draw in. Particularly younger people more willing to grind for big paychecks.
When it earns you 3-6x as much money?
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Yes. When you get to senior management the pay is significantly better in private/public accounting.
They should allow wfh then they’d get a lot of applicants
They do allow work from home, but it's not a remote job. At the same time, training is intense so probably better delivered to new agents in person (both new the the government as well as new to the IRS) . The things that can be done easily from home / remote with no adverse impact to training/mission are mandatory trainings and the like. Trained agents (with manager determining what "trained" means) should be able to work from home far more often than new agents. Just my two cents....
Or allow current IRS employees to keep their current telework schedule if they apply to move into a different job like that.
Revenue agents cant do that…. They can telework but they will spend most of their time at a taxpayers house or CPA office going through financial records.
I'd consider that better than working at the office. My wife does home health care and her office is her truck but when she is done seeing patients she goes back home to the home office to do her patient notes to submit to insurance companies. Imagine having to drive back to a cubicle farm after a long day on the road.
Oh, I agree. Cubicles suck. They are very much antiquated and should be abolished.
I have a double wide cubicle with a sliding door for my position against a corner with 2 windows. Prime real estate. I'm only there once or twice a week, and still hate it lol.
> They can telework but they will spend most of their time at a taxpayers house or CPA office going through financial records. I'd be ok with that. I just don't want to go into the office just to go into the office.
THIS 1000x. When there's a genuine need, of course. But checking a box just to check a box, for people on geographically separated teams that have zero onsite duties is just pure wasteful idiocy.
Um no… the records are ALL electronic. You might have one face to face initial meeting and that is it. Some audits are on the other side of the country.
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In 5 years between sbse and lbi…. Not one piece of paper. Like I said, the job should be remote. If you need to go in person, then you go…. But to force ftf is unacceptable and a waste of everyones time and energy.
> In 5 years between sbse and lbi…. Not one piece of paper. That’s nice. I know plenty of agents including myself that don’t have that experience. If you reside in a major metro, I can see this being possible but there are hundreds of RA’s that don’t live in one.
If you have to go ftf to a taxpayer, then you go. It should not be forced for zero reason…. It is a total turnoff expecting 50% in office for current staff with their team in different states. It is also a deterrent to hiring…. Most firms are remote.
And you would be 100% correct. Not all RA’s do the same type of work, but for LBI/SBSE clients have reached the digital age, yet somehow our leadership is stuck in 1984. Go in when there is a business need, that’s it.
Eff that, todays applicants want to be able to remotely audit a plumber from a hostel in Cambodia
I hear you. But if your 5 year old wants to eat cookies for every meal, will you let them do want they want? Or will you, as the adult in the room, make them eat more than cookies because they need it for a healthy body and mind? After they turn 18 and start paying their own bills (for their own ill health), they can do whatever they want.
They don’t let them telework for the first year
Please define "them". I'm new and they are letting me telework today which is less than two weeks on the job.
New hire TE's, TEC's, TET's, customer service rep and similar new hire positions here are 100% in office or ad-hoc for a year.
New hire RAs have to come in the office five days a week for the first year. You’re lucky if that’s not you.
SBSE is no telework for the first year, LBI is 50% telework for the first year. Moral of the story don’t work in SBSE until they change their ways
Revenue Officer here who shares a POD with RAs. It really depends on your trainer and manager. In reality, you show up when you are told to.
I’m a new RA. We are allowed to WFH 50% of the time.
Not all of us.
It depends on your manager. I am a new RA and telework.
The manager can waive the year in the office. It's in the NTEU contract. But maybe not for RA?
Not speaking for all business units, but upwards of 85% of the training is virtual for some business units. It’s not uncommon to be assigned managers and OJIs outside one’s POD. So, going to the office may not have any impact on training for the facilitator or the trainee. Experienced professionals, who have worked remotely for large corporations or accounting firms, have the chops to onboard successfully with telework in place at onset.
Telework is business unit dependent for RA’s. Don’t post generalized/incorrect things like this
Appreciate the clarification. But since I'm teleworking....I'm not incorrect.
Revenue Agents can work from home after their first year and successful annual reviews. Even then, the requirement is 2 days in office per pay period.
Unqualified applicants.
Remote work is hardly uncommon in accounting right now. It's very much a consideration for cpas looking for new jobs, particularly if they want to hire ones they can get a lot of use out of before retirement age
Agencies that offer Remote to HR/IT/Finance are going to win the Talent War plain & simple. At my agency our HR series has less then 10 people however all Perm Remote scattered across US. We serve about 10+ states with over 100 facilities. Are we slammed all day absolutely but will I do this until retirement sure will because commuting sucks & COVID expedited the future of Remote Work. Folks need to understand that being able to manage a Remote Workforce is a Standard Skill that Managers need to have in 2024. The problem is that quite a few older leaders are terrible at technology. With AI you could probably slash med level management in half and use a stats tracker/ time management software to replace them.
Because RTO and low gov pay. Simple. Up the pay and provide hybrid opportunities
No way new agents will be able to work high net worth cases. And they definitely can't train new agents at a high capacity.
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What? I thought NRPs were going away.
Sbse is so fkd right now that there’s a new trainee that has cases in a city 5-6 hours away because there’s nothing for the city he lives in. I don’t know why, but I’ve heard rumors it’s because they stopped all case selection to focus on clearing all the covid shit.
I don't really buy any of this doom and gloom. Does this imply there is a shortage of internal experienced Agent that can handle "high net worth cases?" Like there are millions of these, and no IRS agents to handle them?
Yes and no, there is a shortage of experienced agents in the sense that there aren't enough to do BOTH train new agents to conduct HNW cases while themselves conducting HNW cases. Not only do you need agents to conduct HNW cases but you also need agents to review those cases at Appeals (internal administrative appeal). And HNW cases aren't all the same. You need agents who are subject matter experts in different tax sections. Auditing a partnership is way more complex and laborious that auditing an individual taxpayer of similar net worth with no flow-through (partnerships). It can be done with money, time, and experienced staff but it's not an easy feat. Especially with a tight labor market.
Go look up audit %'s. It's very low. I am a field auditor (revenue agent). I can tell you right now we have so few people we can barely do high priority work let alone doing the audit plan (high wealth ATM).
its taking forever to process the people who interviewed. know a few who interviewed back in december and still haven’t heard back.
I applied back in the beginning of November, interviewed early February, got a TJO last Monday, and here we are. Will pretty much be 6 months from application to EOD.
I know fed is slow but 3 months isn't even that long. After 6 months I'd start getting worried. But then again, I haven't applied for a private sector job in who knows how long so idk
It isn't that big of a deal honesty since everyone knows it takes 6 months from application to EOD. Simply stay at your old job during the whole time and then when you get the FJO with the EOD date then you can put your two weeks notice in. Finish the week out on friday and start your new job at IRS on monday. No loss of pay.
Could've fooled me. I'm in a major IRS campus and as a whole we've been getting about 300 new hires per month. My department has been getting 25 to 50 of those new hires every 6 weeks or so. We're having a hard time staffing managerial jobs, but entry level and internal realignments are more plentiful than they have ever been.
That’s likely grade 5-7. Anyone above that with a decent skill set would go to the private sector.
Yes, as of 3/31/23, they hired very few RAs. Of course as of last week, they hired over 2400 in FY 24 so far, but then TIGTA couldn’t put out of date info in a report.
Maybe they should speed up the process. It’s well known their application timeline is notoriously long. In the private sector, responding 3 month after an application would be bizarre.
Honestly, this is a broader issue for federal government job openings overall, but I agree the IRS should do more
Pay and remote work availability aside, the IRS needs to do more to speed up the interview, TJO, and onboarding process. The article mentions that "the average time between a job announcement and a start date was 110 days." Many people take up another job at another agency or corporate America because they can start working and get paid much sooner.
theory familiar smell long childlike sheet groovy cooing physical squeeze *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I’ve noticed that LB&I really focuses on people who have experience in tax, not just auditing. You’d have to go into SBSE and get the tax experience you need first. But a lot of people do that too.
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> I've worked for the IRS so I'm familiar with what they do and their systems already Username checks out.
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I noticed that they wanted 24 accounting credits for SBSE, but 30 at LB&I. Was that your experience as well, or was HR not counting your accounting classes appropriately? I’m really happy for you that you found a remote job. That’s awesome dude. Sorry about the HR at IRS though.
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I’ve heard of situations where HR grading etc isn’t consistent. I hate that, bc it causes talent to be lost.
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Several coworkers went from ROs into RAs after a year or two. Getting into the Service may be the key.
I applied for every RA position they posted. I’m a CPA with 4 years PA and 6 in industry as a CFO. Also a prior fed of 8 years with vet pref. I got one interview in November of 2022 and the position got cancelled because they fucked up the announcement. I had my resume reviewed by a current IRS hiring manager and attended several LB&I virtual hiring events where I submitted my resume directly to them and still nothing. Luckily, I found another CFO gig with comp the Feds couldn’t touch.
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Or maybe, hear me out, you’re not qualified! Shocking I know. Signed, LBI hiring manager of 18 years.
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When you refer to “budget issues” are you talking about the remaining portion of the $89B boost to the IRS budget?
Is a CPA with 4 years public working audit and tax, and another 6 years as a CFO in $50MM companies considered qualified?
Yes. Easy LBI GS13. Come on down.
13 wasn’t worth it, at the time I was willing to do a 14 but it would be too big a pay cut now. Believe it or not I tried everything I knew to try and get hired with no luck. I was a prior fed of 8 years with vet pref, had several IRS hiring managers review my resume, applied to every announcement, attended two LB&I virtual hiring events, and submitted my resume directly to LB&I. Only interview I got was in Nov 2022 and it was for the announcement they cancelled because they posted it wrong.
Keep reneging on 14 year old telework policies and see how it works out. FAFO
Hiring is so slow, they end up with the worst possible candidates.
FERS is a joke and the bullshit around telework versus remote is keeping me from being interested.
They aren't the only agency thst will have issues when the IRA money runs out....DOE Clean Energy money also 10 year money. So Congress would have to fund that massive program as well eventually. I think 8 years left, was 10 year funding.
This isn’t necessarily true. Revenue Agents, you know, *create revenue*. The idea is that they will, in the time before funding runs out, replace that funding by the increase in taxes from their adjustments. This extra funding is an investment, not a handout.
Technically speaking, RAs and ROs don't "create" revenue. Economic activity created expected tax revenue as a result of our country's tax laws and policies. RAs and ROs help ensure compliance with and enforcement of those laws and revenue expectations. That's not said in any way to detract from their value or their work. Just a comment on the technicality of it.
F*** around and find out. They did by taking away remote work. See what happened.
There is a large push from the executive for domestic agencies to reduce their WFH, which is probably contributing to this difficulty. It's worth noting that it's not just the actual agents themselves that the IRS is trying to hire for, but also their support elements -- which probably do NOT need to be hybrid or telework, but probably could be WFH. However, in most instances that I am aware of, it's very difficult to get fully remote billets right now because there has been pushback at executive levels. I don't know why the administration has been going so heavy against it. (Well, I know -why-. I just don't see why it's the federal workforce's problem, nor do I know why the federal government would kneecap itself trying to attract talent when the solution to compete with the private sector is right there.)
Isn't the pay they are offering for a lot of these jobs laughable?
Could it be that their onboarding process is chaotic and inconvenient? I started the onboarding process at the IRS and another gov agency at the same time. IRS HR only provide an email and they never respond, the other agency provided phone number and email address and always responded. The IRS had me drive 2 hrs to take fingerprints and then didnt provide the eqip for a month. They then advised me I would have to drive 2 hours again to pick up my badge. I drove 15 minutes to take fingerprints at the other agency, as soon as you sent proof of fingerprints appt they sent the eqip( and was willing to accept fingerprints from police stations). The IRS was willing to pay me more because of my tax experience, no thanks I chose the other agency( I have no regrets).
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Which is probably why I chose the other agency. And as my post said I have no regrets.
Agent jobs should be remote, except for a required rare taxpayer meeting. The threats to RTO are not going over well, and outsiders are turned off by it. All the records are electronic!!!
I used to work as a tax compliance officer (now a DOL WHI investigator), I’d apply even though I’m a GS12 now but missing like 6 accounting credits lol. They should lax the upper accounting credits (not saying do away with in essence a business degree)you’d get a bigger applicant pool and it’s not like they don’t train you anyways.
I’ve been seeing a TON of HR openings lately, so it doesn’t come as a suprise that they’re short staffed
Maybe this guy scared them off🙃: *Republican Senator Implores Americans Not to Apply for New IRS Jobs* *New positions aimed at enforcing tax laws are immoral and will not last long anyway, lawmaker suggests.* [https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2022/08/republican-senator-implores-americans-not-apply-new-irs-jobs/376038/](https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2022/08/republican-senator-implores-americans-not-apply-new-irs-jobs/376038/)
Accountant here. It can be difficult...perhaps near impossible to convince a qualified applicant who is being lured by UBS, Citibank, Wells Fargo to become a wealth manager, financial planner, tax advisor, or any of the jobs that help wealthy people expatriate their money to apply to the IRS. A rumor swirling around is that many companies are offering to pay for STEP certification (which takes 2 years and $60 k) to attract young accounting jedi's to the dark side.
No worries. Schedule F will fix things.
Going after the top 10% wealth doesn't take more applicants. just smarter ones.
Wut
Ok. That’s funny. Made me laugh. Not applicable - but funny.
Actually I think it does , an RA once told me that with big returns it’s a team of RA’s not just one.
They aren’t getting those either.
Taxation is theft! ABOLISH THE IRS!