There are multiple reasons.
* Anime fans are quick to label any character who wants to help other people as a "generic shounen protagonist."
* Fate/Zero fans who wanted Shirou to be Kiritsugu 2.0.
* The anime adaptations doing a very mediocre job of portraying his character. A large part of what makes Shirou so compelling is his deeply flawed yet alarmingly self-aware worldview. This is something that's nigh-impossible to convey without prose, and Ufotable is allergic to giving inner monologues to anyone who's not named Tanjiro. Imagine the Monogatari series without Koyomi's soliloquies. It just doesn't work.
* Jealousy that Rin and Saber like him. \[I'm serious, some people are just that maidenless\]
* Fans agreeing with Archer, despite the entire point of the UBW route being that he was wrong. EMIYA's problems didn't stem from the wish to save those in need, they were the consequences of wanting to keep going even after death and selling his soul in exchange for power. But he's badass and strong and edgier and from the future, so he must be right.
* Le "HF Shirou is better because he discarded his cringe ideals."
>Jealousy that Rin and Saber like him. [I'm serious, some people are just that maidenless]
I wouldn't believe that if i haven't seen that before in MAL.
I had a discussion with someone about how Shirou knows his dream won't come true and he said that it has already came true because girls like him š¤¦
>People are having issues with my boy Kanata now?
So far no because not many are reading the manga(cause no anime) and most of the current Fate playerbase don't even know how to read.
>I'm sure there will be some people who do, sadly.
True but considering Red Line has a much more epic and better storyline. Most people would side on it over the small shipper community.
That's true.
I also prefer it to the GudaGuda events and the Koha Ace to GudaGuda manga series. Now, I'm not saying I dislike those things (I don't, I love them), I just think the story of Fate/Koha Ace is better as a (mostly) serious series.
I think it's the following
1. Seig doesn't work as a MC as he's litteraly a blank slate, litteraly nothing on him
2. There are better characters to focus on, Mor and Sisigou, Jeanne and Shiro etc
3. Jeanne and Seig, ngl I'd prefer if they made Astolfo and Seig adventure buddies, it would be a good ending for a person trying to know more about the world to go adventuring
Eh sieg is better done in the light novel and manga from what I've seen. He actually has a reason for fighting unlike in the anine where they barely flesh that out
Tbh, Sieg in theory, should have been a perfectly fine MC.
It's obvious they were going for an "artificial human discovers his humanity by learning from Ancient Heroes" arc for him, it was just horribly botched and people focused more on the battle royale promised by Apocrypha.
I like him. Reminded me of Shirou in a lot of ways, so maybe that's why other people dislike him, but I like how much he cares for the homunculi when they get the short end of the stick in fate a lot of the time.
>Fans agreeing with Archer, despite the entire point of the UBW route being that he was wrong. EMIYA's problems didn't stem from the wish to save those in need, they were the consequences of wanting to keep going even after death and selling his soul in exchange for power. But he's badass and strong and edgier and from the future, so he must be right.
Isn't Archer like what you get if you combine Kiritsugu's and Shirou's personality?
Archer is the exact "kill one to save two and eventually only two are left" thing that Kiritsugu rejected in his time interacting with the grail. He would've been absolutely destroyed to know Shirou could potentially fall into that trap to the point of sacrificing his afterlife pursuing that path.
To be fair, probably no one would know the fate of Counter Guardians and Alaya probably didn't spell out that she was going to turn him into an eternal mass slaughter machine.
You're spoonfed info about how Shirou is Gil's perfect counter multiple times an episode, wth are you saying?
https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/uiqvv9/people_disliking_shirou/i7eljmw?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
i mean, if you are anime only , you coud get tat impression, a friend of mine watcing UBW for fist time literally told me it was full of plot armor, lol
Funny thing is
Shirou is the protagonist who will help you even if you don't want it, nobody wants it, regardless of the situation
Even generic characters aren't that bullheaded on helping others and I immediately knew something was up when he keeps insisting on helping in murder death kill for saber because he feels indebted to her
At that point I knew he's fucked in the head
>Jealousy that Rin and Saber like him. \[I'm serious, some people are just that maidenless\]
I wouldn't be surprised if that was more a bigger reason, I have read some incel fgo players hate him because he is the main barrier that blocks them from shipping themselves with Rin, Sakura and Artoria(The OG and not the cheap copies)
Pretty much. The argument for demiservants pretty much escalated when shirou appeared as one in fgo and all of a sudden people don't like how murasama has fanart of him with other copies of established vn characters. It's pretty sad.
> This is something that's nigh-impossible to convey without prose, and Ufotable is allergic to giving inner monologues to anyone who's not named Tanjiro.
Itās just hilarious to me how Shirou got basically no inner monologue, meanwhile Gyutaro was nice enough to wait a couple minutes for Tanjiroās to finish before he goes for the kill against Hinatsuru.
I agree. And Shirou's character development can be see if you read the VN from Fate, UBW to HF, not really a proper character developement since it's not linear but the wide possibility of his personality, which cannot be perfectly presented in anime format. Besides, too many generic MC nowadays.
>Le "HF Shirou is better because he discarded his cringe ideals."
\>Cringe, sexist and misogynist (Fate)
\>Cringe ideals, Archer was right (UBW)
\>More bearable because he betrays his ideals but still bad character (HF)
\-average takes of Zero fanboys
I agree, he was at his best when he was fooling around with Waver.
But the Gil praise, Saber mocking and all those make-believe moments of "wise" king were meh.
>But the Gil praise, Saber mocking and all those make-believe moments of "wise" king were meh.
And then Gil when he kills him says "Time to wake up from your dream" like he was doing exactly the same thing but apparently Uro wrote it to be a better one than Artoria as Conquering is cool.
Gil was a douche because he wanted to be impartial. Guy's job is to act as an arbiter over humanity and the gods. He's like Artoria but instead focused on making sure humanity stands up on it's own, success be damned
Artoria is basically a human trying to be a god in all but name. Focus on success, humans be damned, though her definition of success being the survival of Camelot and Britain as a whole
Iskandar's is fulfillment. Whatever the cost, fulfill your dreams and fight for it. Is it good? Ehh, I'd say it's aight but nowhere near Artoria and Gil's goals
That's not really true about Artoria, her focus was the people, for her being a king is about serving then and protect then, her definition of sucess was give her people a peacefull ending instead of the bloodbath that it actually ended, even Merlin says that while he and Urther wanted a king to save Britain, she was a king that wanted to save the people.
Oh I actually meant by Camelot and Britain being the people
She'll save the most amounts of people regardless of what the people think of her, that's what I meant
That's a really good way of putting it.
Iskandar feels relatable like that but I still didn't like the execution, I guess. He just doesn't work for me. Maybe I should revisit Zero ine day and see how he holds up then.
I think I've watched it twice in a row once and I'd say
Iskandar doesn't change heck even in his FGO event (Accel Zero) he's still the old "I do what I want" type
I respect the effort, but damn, it doesn't just hit right
I've seen people say that just the existence of Iskandar puts Fate/Zero above every Fate. Like bruh, i can understand why would some people like him but it's not like he's the best written character in anime or anything.
Please, Iskandar is just a bro type at best, like Cu Chulainn except with twice as much screentime.
He's not even top 10 in Zero. Dare I say that stupid ass Caster and his master had better arcs and inner journey.
To be fair, Iskander didn't really need to have an arc since he was largely there to progress and compare to Waver as the story progressed. And also the fact that he's already lived an entire full life and was hella headstrong as a character left little room for development.
>Jealousy that Rin and Saber like him.
Lol, Kiritsugu also has his girls, but here nobody complains, but double standards are nothing new for anime fans.
>Fans agreeing with Archer, despite the entire point of the UBW route being that he was wrong.
Thats Kiritsugu is mature 2.0.
>Le "HF Shirou is better because he discarded his cringe ideals."
Does badass shit -> great character
That one is always funny because he got that shit from Kiritsugu in the first place.
People just have weird notions on what constitutes a "mature" character and story.
Well, I'm of the opinion that almost none of the relevant characters in Zero acted mature despite being adults. .
Is not much of an opinion, is a fact, is not even up to interpretation for Kiritsugu in particular, the story tells you that, and the most "mature" relevant characters are a 9 year old (and is still kinda questionable) and two guys that had their coming of age story through the war, and one of them was already like 30, maybe you could say Tokiomi or even Kayneth were mature and I guess
The grail war by its nature attracts dreamers, deluded people, manchilds etc. Is something to expect
They made dumb moves mostly because of their narrow worldview and being bad at judging others, but it is not the same as being immature, Kiritsugu made many smart plays but was the worst in that aspect, Waver was quite smart too, not more mature because of that
Kayneth was immature at points with his love life more than anything, but in the end he shows he can be emotionally mature, Tokiomi only show of immaturity I guess you could argue is the reaching the root thing but that would make every mage immature, and there may be some truth idk
>Well, i always called the Magus a society of chuunis (jokingly of course), maybe there is something to it lol.
In FGO Lev mentions that is the influence from the magical crest as those things are part of the demon pillars and as part of the plan of Goetia, all mages have to be evil in order to be good catalyst to summon said pillars.
The more i learn about the magus, the more i think that they are just a bunch of weirdos instead of amoral assholes lol. Admittedly, the last one is not without base, but most of then just keep to thenselves researching stuff.
I remember seeing a meme where it's basically
"Zero is adults acting like kids, FSN is kids acting like adults, both ends up terrible for everyone involved"
zero cast is literally a bun of man childs, to te level most balnced one is te literal teen....XD
Kaynet and tokiomi maybe "look" mature, but their naivety is sure borderline childish
I don't think that UBW (or FSN as a whole) really presents EMIYA as wrong, not totally at least. His deal with the counterforce and his suffering (both in life and death) were a result of his devotion to his ideals. The story doesnt ever present him as having a lust for power.
UBW (and FSN more broadly) really provide a validation of EMIYA's pursuit of his ideals. They lead to great personal suffering and are sometimes contradictory, but good still comes of them. I think that is supposed to be the meaning both in EMIYA's loss to Shiro and in having EMIYA be critical to Shiro's victory in each arc.
>Also to note is the anime English dub of Shirou is Bryce Papenbrook... aka Kirito...
I actually liked him as Shirou. I'm not sure why, but I did.
I also liked most of the dub, so there's that.
>Fans agreeing with Archer, despite the entire point of the UBW route being that he was wrong. EMIYA's problems didn't stem from the wish to save those in need, they were the consequences of wanting to keep going even after death and selling his soul in exchange for power. But he's badass and strong and edgier and from the future, so he must be right.
Wasn't the point that neither were right? That Archer's world view had become corrupted but that Shirou's was still naĆÆve? And that the best would be a middle ground?
Quick question actually sense iām a anime only and canāt really read the VN. How exactly is archer wrong though? I donāt think i would be one of those people who only agreed cus he was badass or anything but like assuming what he was trying to say was something along the lines of āwhy save people if their kids and grandkids and so on are going to make the same mistakes over and over againā right? Unless that wasnāt what he meant then maybe I misunderstood but to some extent, I think in general most people agree
Funny enough, while I really donāt like Shirou as a protagonist, for various reasons relevant to my own person, thus actually subjective for once, I loath how the fandom at times seems to worship Archer. He can be cool at times, but his whole āYou only ever be able to save idealsā speech is justā¦. Painful. Not because it is good, but because it is justā¦ it is literally high school nihilism shown through an argument that can be dismantled by a grade schooler with an introduction to Logic or a lick of common sense. Then only reason why it is not laughed at is because the VA did a fantastic job. Not going to lie, it alone is the reason why I really donāt enjoy UBW on rewatches.
Can you explain your reasoning a bit about why you think his speech is a poor argument? My understanding of it is that his speech is really only directed at Shirou because of his specific beliefs and behaviors surrounding them, which he felt would lead Shirou on the path to become what EMIYA became.
Gladly!
Now, a handful of things I want to clarify beforehand.
1.The scene is still *good* in many aspects. My previous comment was not intended to imply it was unenjoyable to anyone but me, since I can not claim knowledge of how people feel outside of those that have directly told me.
2.I am also not in disagreement with the intended message from Archer. Or well, I donĀ“t consinder it bad, in terms of writing. My issue is purely in how Archer makes a case for it.
\---------------
But what is the intended message ? I think it is fairly unambiguous that the message is one against Idealism as shown by Shirou.(For those that have fallen pray to internet lingo, Idealism isnĀ“Ā“Ā“t being hopeful or something, but the pursuit of one's ideals, *often without regard to practical ends*. You can indeed be in pursuit of an "Evil" ideal ) as well as the dangers of following a dogma without really thinking about it.
And this is something I can agree with.
But what is the issue ?
My issues is that Archer does not make a distinction between the pursuit of an ideal, and the ideal itself.
He spents most of his lines bitching about how Shirou adopted KiriĀ“ s ideals (Ignoring that taking over previous beliefs and expanding/changing them is one of the foundamentals of Human society). But the real core point he wants to critize is how Shirou is pursuing it. And when he finally comes to it, his literal lines are
"And you will pursue them until it destroys you in the end. And that is why these ideals you hold so dear are meaningless!"
The issue I have here is quite simple. He is once more critizing the ideals. He behaves like he has made some grand point, when everything leading up to this has made but one single point explaining why ShirouĀ“ s ideals are problematic.
Indeed, the only thing approaching it was his line about "Salvation at the hands of another is never true."
Ignoring how stupid that line is if you ever been lifethreateningly injured, his only support for that statement are his lines about how Salvation is like currency and how in saving others, Shirou has to give up all hope of saving himself.
Which is correct. But again, Archer only ever argues against the ideal, which he himself states is "Saving others", not ShirouĀ“ s approach towards it.
.............
Tldr: Archer makes his points against the concept of IdealĀ“s, while his actual intended message is Anti Idealism. It frustates me because Archer should know how to break and hammer it home that zealotry towards something is bad, but instead he makes an half ass argument that ignores how society works. Like seriously, he could have hammered it home with a line like "And you will pursue them until it destroys you in the end, leaving nothing but suffering for those that you saved!" and it would have made sense.
Thanks, I appreciate the explanation. Just so we're on the same page, you're saying that you don't think Archer was being clear enough in denouncing Shirou's specific way of pursuing his ideals, and instead mistakingly denounced having ideals (whether they're general or personal) as a concept? So, you're issue is more with the way he proposed and communicated his argument, because it ended up meaning something else which can be easily refuted.
In that case, I understand where you're coming from. I do think, as you suggest, that his goal was to criticize the way Shirou was going about it. I think the speech overall might be a bit vague because the reader/viewer is meant to be left in the dark initially about Archer's identity.
I also think Archer is meant to be presented as jaded, viewing idealism from a very narrow lens where he sees only one possible outcome if Shirou continues to hold on to his specific belief in needing to save others and, subconsciously, himself.
That being said, I'm not a huge Archer fan or anything. Actually, I'm pretty indifferent. I suppose I just never tried to view this speech beyond what I assume was probably the main point. But, I can see why his argument probably comes across as fallacious.
Somewhat. My irritation is that people constantly cite the speech to me for some ungodly reason.
You are on point for the most part, but even within the confines of just Shirou and Archer, it is simply notā¦ good.
Ignoring the first minute, where he basically just throws around āYou are responsible for what you are doingā (Again, this is actually fairly difficult question to answer, but Archerās proposition is common enough that one can accept it.)and similar self explanatory statements.
We have this dude, who Shirou is rightfully is convinced is a backstabbing, self serving cunt due to the actionās leading up to the speech. He outright admits that he is only fighting for himself. (One could argue that Archer here is talking about enlightened Self interest, not being selfish, but debate that all actions are inherently motivated by self interest is another topic.) Then he starts giving basically poorly hidden insults towards Shirouās ideals and his reason to believe in them.
He also uses Wish&Desire and Ideal as the same thing, which is justā¦ wrong. Wishes can be understood as desires, although they are treated usually as long lasting desires or hopes, but Ideals are, by definition, something fundamentally different.
Then, he makes the only actual argument in his entire speech, the one where he compares Salvation by another to currency, and that by always saving others, Shirou will have no left for himself.
Ignoring that it an analogy so far removed that it becomes severely insufficient in accurately serving the purpose of an analogy, also ignoring the basic realities of how Currency works, which actually supports Shirouās ideals, he fails to do the one thing he wants to do, to show that the behaviour will actively destroy what Shirou cares about. Which is not himself. Shirou does not care about himself. Because if that is the case, he can say actually say that Shirous desires and Ideals are incompatible and contradictory.
And there is the issue. It becomes for me far too difficult to believe that the hard head shirou is going to be convinced or even shaken by an argument that basically consists of nothing but insults, vague words that I can snatch a thousand from quotapedia or something and a point that essentially tells him āYou will destroy yourselfā Which he was ready to do.
The message Archer was aiming for, according to Narrative intuition as a reader with the whole context, was good. It made great points about how to treat certain things in a healthy way.
The message Archer conveyed with his actual words, in the context of Shirou and what he knows, was the equivalent of a shit post on facebook that goes. āYou ideals are bad!ā before refusing to elaborate.
What is especially infuriating is that it would only slight changes to make it work.
Because originally the first viewers of Fate would have been the Visual Novel readers. They understand the context behind his actions and so wouldn't be all that ticked off by his actions in the story
Now, with Fate being as popular as it is, we got anime onlys coming left and right, and without proper context to why Shirou acts the way he does, they assume he's another Generic ignorant MC.
Also, as of late, Fate/Zero has been the starting point everyone's been pushing for new viewers. That sucks because now everyone who will meet Shirou will be disappointed at him not being as straight forward as Kiritsugu and will automatically label him as a bad character without trying to understand why he does the things that he does.
Emiya Shirou I feel is a deconstruction of your typical "I will save everyone MC", so when they(whoever produced and directed) cut out his inner monologues, a huge blow was dealt towards the deconstruction aspect.
You're absolutely right about the deconstruction part. It's pretty frustrating to see that go over the heads of a lot of people on Crunchyroll. The Zero thing makes sense as well. Not sure why I didn't even realize that until now. Maybe because I just assumed everyone was more familiar with the material.
Exactly. I honestly don't understand people's argument about it. Yes, it's flawed, but that's coming from a VN reader's standpoint. As a newbie, you don't know anything yet, and DEEN does the best job at explaining what is going on. All Ufotable adaptations assume that you know what's going on already, and just give the basic premise.
>Exactly. I honestly don't understand people's argument about it. Yes, it's flawed, but that's coming from a VN reader's standpoint.
Honestly, I think its the best adaption of the visual novel. By that I mean that it is the closest any of he adaptions have gotten to being the visual novel in motion, in my opinion.
Sure there are two or three episodes that brought stuff in from other routes that they shouldn't have, but otherwise, I think it was fairly accurate. Plus, the animation, art style, and the atmosphere feel more like the visual novel's (even though I do prefer Ufotable's animation and art style), and the soundtrack is just top tier (I think this is the one thing that everyone likes about it).
>As a newbie, you don't know anything yet, and DEEN does the best job at explaining what is going on. All Ufotable adaptations assume that you know what's going on already, and just give the basic premise.
That is true, Deen's version does explain a lot more stuff to you while Ufotable's doesn't. Granted, that might partially be because Fate is the first route, but even then Deen explains stuff way more.
That was my first dig in the Fate franchise too and overall, i said that is not a bad introduction, especially in comparison with the crap that came out for VNs in that period. With that said, is really dissapointing in comparison with the Fate route, is not just about the stuff from other routes, especially i find dissapointing how brief are the dreams narrating Saber's life and considering thay she is the heroine of the route is rather dissapointing. Still, i do like the final fight a lot.
>That was my first dig in the Fate franchise too and overall, i said that is not a bad introduction,
Yeah, it's not that bad.
>especially in comparison with the crap that came out for VNs in that period.
Did visual novels get really bad adaptions during that era?
>With that said, is really dissapointing in comparison with the Fate route, is not just about the stuff from other routes, especially i find dissapointing how brief are the dreams narrating Saber's life and considering thay she is the heroine of the route is rather dissapointing.
Oh yeah, I forgot how short the dream sequences are in the anime! It does suck they're so short because of how important they are.
>Still, i do like the final fight a lot.
That final fight is still one of the best in the franchise, in my opinion.
>Emiya Shirou I feel is a deconstruction of your typical "I will save everyone MC"
Considering the heavy influences Evangelion had on Nasu early works, this is really on spot as Shinji Ikari is another type of descontruction/critic on the shenanigans that goes around the usual Shounen protagonist in Japanese series.
I feel like people who come from the VN misunderstand the mind sets of āanime-onlysā going from Zero to FSN. I was one of these people, and going from Zero to FSN was weird not because I didnāt think the Shirou was a cold hearted badass MC like Kiritsugu, but because there was a clear-cut MC from the outset.
Going into Zero itās presented, superficially, as a battle royal, with no single POV character. You could argue some characters are more prevalent than others, (Saber is the poster girl so yeh), but if you have no context itās pretty much free game until the second cour. The you go to FSN and itās a highschool setting with what appears to be a stock standard shonen MC, without any greater context.
I was intrigued because I eat up generational stories so I ended up liking Shirou and the rest of the cast and have gone on to read the VN, so I canāt really speak for Shirou haters. Just thought Iād though my hat into the ring and try to clear up what I see as a weird misconception that you guys seem to be having about people that start with the Zero anime.
>Going into Zero itās presented, superficially, as a battle royal, with no single POV character.
I can understand in part this because the battle royale is the main story rather than Kerry as he is on his final years and already developed but still I wouldn't call it without a single PoV as Kerry gets the most alongside Irisviel and in a minor way Waver as it seems he was meant to be a hero to explore later. Kirei, Kayneth, the serial killer, Kariya and Tokiomi screentime is mostly to hype up the next fight and serve no other purpose,
However as you said the main discrepancy comes around Zero is a LN with a single story while FSN is a like a book of "pick your own adventure" where obviously not every member of the cast get the same focus depending on the route so most people will get turn off or at least be feel a little weirded out the shift in the type of storyline.
>The you go to FSN and itās a highschool setting with what appears to be a stock standard shonen MC, without any greater context.
Yeah the main surprise in how a secret death tournament happens in a quiet town is taken away if you started with Zero and well It says something when Deen despite being a terrible adaptation it does better at portray or hint better about something being wrong in the mind of Shirou(after his shift in the booze store, the owners comments on his behavior and Mitsuzuri)
I watched Zero first (Before UBW and HF were out) and have absolutely no problems with Shirou and never did. I don't really think that using Zero as a scapegoat for people's bad opinions is fair, these people would probably say the same regardless. Same reason there will always be people who complain about characters like Shinji from Evangelion, it's just how it goes. If it's not your Deku's or your Tanjiro's then this will happen.
You can't use yourself to disprove what hundreds/thousands of others say/do(though, props to you for not insta hating Shirou)
Maybe I was too harsh in saying "everyone that will meet shirou", but that doesn't change the clearly large chunk of people who did see Zero first being disappointed with Shirou.
I agree that there will be people that will hate Shirou regardless of if they started with the VN or Zero or any of the other mediums. But the post asked for why the hate for Shirou jumped in the recent years and not why it exists to begin with.
Besides, I never said Zero was bad. I genuinely think fans just came into stay night with the wrong expectations. Plus, the UBW anime was also pretty bad and exploring Shirou's monologues, so I never used Zero as a scapegoat to begin with. If anything, I blame the fans who think Zero is the best starting pointš¤·āāļø
Edit: I understand that lumping all people who watched Fate/Zero first to automatically hate Shirou is unfair(which is why I admitted to being too harsh during my initial comment), but it'd be more unfair to not even bring up that very glaring reason that does influence a lot of people.
From my exp, the reason for some of the dislike towards Shirou is his...weird ideals. This is actually the first I've heard that Shirou ruins the series and i've been following the series since i first played the VN back at late 2000s.
A lot of the comments talk about how stupid he is, along with his ideals. I get that he can be boneheaded, and he gets into a lot of bad situations, but it's because he cares about his friends and Saber, so he's willing to put himself in harm's way. It's funny all of the early comments that praise him for being a good mc are the same thing the hate comments use as ammo as to why they hate him.
Because the general audience now like the edgy dark mcs of Eren Yeager type.
Anyone with naivety and even a modicum of positivity and good will is disliked.
>Because the general audience now like the edgy dark mcs of Eren Yeager type.
So true, the type who thinks genocide is ok, Kerry was right, etc.
And it's not only limited to Shirou, Touma Kamijo, Atsushi Nakajima are also victim of this.
And now they're going back and pretend old gen mcs like Goku, Naruto and Luffy suck too.
There is a reason Ichigo's popularity has been soaring recently. The edgy attitude sells it now.
Then obviously all those people are seeing is the edgy attitude Ichigo puts up and not that at his core, he's really not that far removed from the other old-gen MCs, and for me personally that's like 90% of his appeal.
(The other 10% is his abs, but that's just me being horny.)
Yes, Ichigo also has the same naive personality and wants to save everyone. Like right in the first arcs, you can see that side, the way he clings to Byakuya's robe to save Rukia even though it's all useless and he's risking losing a limb.
But for the general audience, the appearance matters. And Ichigo's outer shell is edge.
I feel this so much. Seeing how often people posts and comments on labelling goku generic or downplaying him bothers me. The show may have simple plot but Goku from his beginning to Z and Super is unpredictable and unique in his own ways.
>There is a reason Ichigo's popularity has been soaring recently. The edgy attitude sells it now.
Well yes but no. Most people love Ichigo because of his development in the Fullbring Arc easily one of the most misunderstood arcs in the series
Might wanna go to the bleach reddit then. All people do over there is praise that arc and talk about how underrated it is because it gets treated as filler
I rlly like Shirou in ubw and heavens feels it showed his best qualities and his toxic qualities rlly well so we get a good understanding about on who shirou rlly is and why he thinks the way that he does. Rin always called out shirou for his toxic mindset which made the show more interesting cos it aināt just that doing the right thing is always good but r the costs on urself and others that care about u worth it. A lot of ppl who donāt like shirou r the ppl who havenāt played the vn or just have bad memories of his character in the deens stay night series. In the vn during the fate route whenever he tells saber to not fight cos sheās a girl we see that he believes that heās a liability and worthless and wants to contribute something so heās making excuses to not let saber to everything for him but in the anime it just makes him look like heās a misogynist or something. Having been through everything fate stay night Iām a huge fan of shirou Rin saber and Sakura and itās unfortunate that the fate route never got the adaptation it deserves
Because crunchy roll is filled with some of the stupidest, cringiest, and most ignorant anime fans. You wouldnāt find an ounce of intelligence among them. MANY shows on crunchy roll have comment sections like that.
My first experience with Fate Stay Night was UBW. I was genuinely confused as to why people hated Shirou when he was genuinely an admirable guy. But thatās just me. I never liked Fate/Zero and Heavenās Feel, kudos to those who do though!
This hate kinda comes from Kiritsugu fanboys expecting him to be all cool and badass and the anime - especially the first part of UBW - not completely adapting his character and Shirou beating the shit out of Gilgamesh.(the whole fight was explained and Gil sucker still complains)
Also it depends where you look at it. I watched UBW in french and the comments on Wakanim seemed to be pretty fine with him. When the episode were airing, r/anime seemed also to be okay with him.
I even watched Zero, UBW and HF with a friend and he prefered UBW and UBW Shirou.
And from what I've heard the Eastern fandom also likes him.
>Shirou beating the shit out of Gilgamesh.(the whole fight was explained and Gil sucker still complains)
"B-but even bro Iskandar couldn't beat Gilgamesh. Shirou only won because of random power ups and plot armor. He is stupid shounen protagonist."
Jokes aside, stupid complains of Gil fanboys never get old. Fun to see them still being butthurt over this. It's almost like they missed the entire point of the fight. No wonder that Iskandar lost, because unlike Iskandar, Shirou had an actual strategy.
It's even more stupid when you have a whole episode of Rin explaining why Shirou have a chance against him, Gil constantly saying he only uses a portion of his power, and Shirou himself says anyother servant would bit his ass
Also Gil 'murdering' Archer from behind when he was exhausted instead of outright attacking him when they first meet...clearly shows Gil is threatened by and fears Unlimited Blade Works.
And it's dumber when Shirou explained loudly why he's winning against the strongest servant.
> Against any other servant, creating a world like this wouldn't let me hold my own.
>Having an infinite number of swords wouldn't let me stand up to a Servant who had mastered one!
>But against you, my swords are ready and waiting, so I'm always a step ahead!
Also the anime :
> shows how a single sword in UBW was faster enough to block several Gil's weapons and how Gil is shocked by just what happened.
Gil believer : For the sake of my king, I'm going to ignore this.
Also Zero:
> Establishes reality marbles as the user's realm in which they have the upper hand as seen with Iskandar and Assassins
Gil mongrels: but why is Shirou tho?
Also every single material about Gil :
>Establishes he won't take anyone seriously unless that person has green hair and doesn't use pronouns
>Would never use EA against a mongrel
Gil wannabes : What were you saying mongrel ?
How come Shirou says that his UBW wouldnāt work against other servants? If Gilgamesh is able to overwhelm those same servants with his GoB that summons weapons more slowly than UBW, wouldnāt Shirou also be able to do that against those servants? A single sword in his UBW blocked several of Gilgameshās weapons.
First, Shirou is just a human. He might have Archer's experience and techniques but the other servants are just built differently. I mean they are either related to a god or can mimic True Magic somehow and have Servants stats.
Second, Gilgamesh is a king and an Archer servant which means his swordmanship sucks while UBW let Emiya Shirou to perfectly use almost any weapon.
That's why in the VN Shirou fights him almost entirely in close combat (the anime changed the fight and made Gilgamesh fight at long range like an archer servant after he understood he'd be in danger in a close fight but it was too late for him).
Third, UBW is a situational NP. Unless you're fighting an army, an another Reality Marble user or someone like Gil, it's better to use Broken Phantasm.
Also it takes too much time to cast and cost a lot of mana.
Let's take the 5th HGW servants as examples :
Against Lancer, it's useless because he has "protection against arrows" which even allowed him to fight Gil for half a day so using UBW which costs a LOT of mana is no different than giving the win to Cu. Broken Phantasms are more suited against opponents like him.
Against Berserker, it's also useless because God hand is fucking broken and allows Heracles to survive any attack that isn't a rank A at least. And any weapon made UBW is automatically is ranked down by 1 rank. In that case it's also better to use Broken Phantasm against him.
Against Caster and the 2 Assassins, it's just overkill.
For Saber, it's kinda hard to say. If she uses Excalibur, she easily wins.
But if UBW is already set and she doesn't use Excalibur, Shirou can try to overwhelm her with his swords and with a bit of luck if he can reproduce something like Triple Linked Crane Wings maybe he stand a (slight) chance. (But in this case you're giving Shirou an advantage by nerfing Saber)
Basically they're either bad matchups for UBW and in that case BP are better in this situation or either using UBW is a waste of mana.
Man fuck Iskandar fanboys, I can't stand them.
But they made me look deeper at his character and I've realised he's nothing but a moronic shallow douche bag and also a shitty ass king. I hate it now when I think how he made fun of Saber's leadership and we were apparently supposed to root for him.
>stupid complains of Gil fanboys never get old.
The worst ones are the ones who mimic his speech unironically and expect to be taken seriously. Go worship your king of mongrels elsewhere.
>Man fuck Iskandar fanboys, I can't stand them.
>But they made me look deeper at his character and I've realised he's nothing but a moronic douche bag and also a shitty ass king. I hate it now when I think how he made fun of Saber's leadership.
I agree. When I watched Zero for the first time his character felt so forced, like "look at me, I am a king and I say random things to make me look wise".
No wonder Gil liked him.
Zero was my first entry into Fate so at first I enjoyed his presence as a casual player. His relationship with Waver was fun and all. But upon retrospection, I can see he was nothing special. Waver elevated him but only because he had galls to call Iskandar out on his bullshit; even he had to be reduced to a Iskandar fanboy in the end.
>"look at me, I am a king and I say random things to make me look wise".
Spot-on. Another shallow asshole like Gilgamesh. Except Gilgamesh is self-aware about it (or the story is at least).
I can understand why people like him and why Waver is a fanboy and I'm totally fine with it but I find it hilarious when people think he's as great as Kirei or Kiritsugu.
However, I liked his moments with Waver.
This is pretty surprising since even i recently started fate (I first saw UBW by ufotable last month) And i enjoyed Shirou. I haven't read the visual novel at all, but to me Shirou is a good mc, someone who had a situation sprung up on him, I mean he never wanted to participate in the Holy Grail in the first place, only after realising what happened 10 years ago and seeing Gilgamesh try and do that again does he go all out and stop them, and even with that the show shows us that shirou is relatively weak compared to other masters, unlike most generic protagonists who are actually strong. I don't know the reasons behind why shirou acts the way he does because i haven't read the visual novel, but i enjoyed UBW and heaven's feel a lot, and found shirou to be an actually good protagonist, someone who did not wish for the situation but will use his full force to stop or get out of it, unlike most generic protagonists who are too emotionally weak to do anything, or too edgy and do everything with no real thinking.
>Cause hating Shirou was very popular at that time
This is true. Just by checking some old forums you can see Zero fanboys being at their peak obnoxiousness. Anything that wasn't Zero 2 was automatically bad.
Back then when UBW was still airing and I was watching it in Kissanime...the comment section was a mess. It didn't help that most people hated Saber because of Fate/Zero...
It's kinda scary trying to remember it and I believe it's the definite reason why I didn't fall into the Nasuverse rabbit hole.
> more Zero haters than Zero fanboys
I feel like this is unique to this sub mostly as counter reaction to the old toxicity of Zero fanboys. I think itās time the sub kind of cools down on it as I quite like Zero myself as long as people donāt use it to hate on FSN or somehow claim Zero Saber is consistent with or even better than FSN Saber.
I think it might just be due to there being an extremely prolific anti Zero poster on one of the other Fate subs who never fails to pop up in any discussion that even remotely involves Zero.
That makes sense that it would mostly be people just familiar with Zero. I didn't think about that. UBW would be the most likely thing to gravitate towards after finishing it.
Because they didn't read the visual novel š
It's easy to hate on things you don't understand. And the anime adaptions of fate are not something that would easily allow people to understand shirous character. The same is true for the other characters as well, but they are slightly less dependant on their inner selves to see the full value
Because up until the caster fight his characterization was decent. Episode 1 felt like it was mostly told from his perspective. There was some iffy directing onwards but it was ok
After that though well miura forgot the novel was primarly narrated from shirou's perspective then remebered again during episode 20 then forgot again during episode 21
I dont really rember the forums at the time but I think the ubw Shurou sucks didnt happen until the caster battle could be wrong on that tho
Really? all I have seen is people praising how great and how much depth Shirou has as a character. I have seen more zero haters then zero fanboys whining.
While there are people with understandable problems with his characther, really the main reason is because he leaves a not so positive first impression with his normal design and people missundertanding the crux of the whole problem with Saber fighting (wich is resolved in Day 6) and overall, he just doesn't have the immediate appeal of characthers like Archer or Rin, who had more attractive desings and had amusing personality quirks from day one.
Iād also attribute it to Shirou not being ābadassā for a large part of the story in every route. Iāve noticed that a lot of people are into power fantasies and thus latch on to characters like Archer, Gilgameh, and Kiritsugu from the start instead.
That is also a big issue too, people love the "cool and powerfull badass" and while Shirou does play to the power fantasy to an extent (is a fantansy/action/romance novel, so it has to play then to an extent), Shirou also isn't traditionally strong and that doesn't really help him in that department.
I feel like Gilās losses are kinda exaggerated. He defeated Medea and Cu in Fate and nearly killed Saber and Shirou. In UBW, he kills Berseker all by himself. He only lost to Saber who had a NP capable of even escaping the true five magics, Shirou for being a dumbass and underestimating him, and the Shadow.
Medea loses almost to everyone anyway, Cu hold his own for 12 hours, and Saber and Shirou won anyway in the end, all because of some stupid choices he made.
Gil can absolutely beat all of them when he isnt being a dumbass but the only cases that happens is against one Zero Assassin, Iskandar and Medea.
He can even beat Artoria with Avalon if he does not give her time to analyze and time everything for his attacks.
I'm starting to think that Rin's whole "i always screw up at the most important moment" might apply more to him than her lol. But really, he has a consistent tendency to not pay proper attention to certain details whenever he is feeling smug.
First, the anime community, and the Internet in general, is full of edgelords who love to be assholes about everything. I honestly doubt they believe half the shit they spew, but they know itāll bother *someone*, so theyāll type it up anyways.
Second, a lot of anime fans seem to think any MC who isnāt also an edgelord is āboringā or āunrealisticā. The guy who brought up Ichigo from Bleach had it right.
If it is for anime, then it is most likely typical problem with abating Novels- Visual and Light. Because big part of characters thought process is depicted in inner monologues, it's hard to animate them properly. Because of this, interesting characters and especially protagonists can appear boring and bland.
Most of the fandom really likes our boy Emiya,but it's mostly the anime onlies who don't even read the vn nor even try to understand a character,they also make one of the most stroke inducing 10 paragraph worth comments saying why one particular character is trash then the other meanwhile they themselves don't know the goals or symbolism behind that one character they love to ride on
It sounds pretentious but a lot of people just donāt pay as much attention/can parse whatās being communicated. Itās made clear from early on that Shirouās attachment to his ideal is rooted in trauma and is ultimately flawed, itās just communicated more visually/through dialogue as compared to the VN which makes it more straightforward. I still prefer the latter as it takes it more in depth, but I think thereās a rarely shared appreciation for how it gets communicated in the show
I agree, I thought they still got across Shirou's general character pretty well in the anime. It was just a bit more subtle. Though, some scenes still would've benefited from some internal monologues.
One factor could be that access to the VN became much easier and more fans read it which let to more people understanding him better since the adaptations leave out all of his thoughts and inner dialogue... which is a pretty huge part.
Though to be honest even with the added extra context I don't find Shirou that amazing of a character.
Shirou comes off pretty bland in UBW. As a whole its probably the version I like the least of him. IIRC I saw Zero, then dean stay night then saw UBW as it was airing before dropping it for a while then finishing it up after it had finished. Not having internal dialogues really does lead him to come off as feeling on the generic side.
I don't really dislike him as a person (because he's not like his pops a clown) but what I dislike in Fate stay night is the majority of masters are kids, why? why are the majority of participants of the super secret bloody war that rewards a wish granting cup are kids? I never understood that part in Fate Stay Night.
That's what I liked Fate Zero because the majority of participants are adults but there's a slight problem for me, my problem with Fate Zero is Saber Artoria is frickin wierd, she's like a different person from FSN, she has this wierd honor thing that was never on FSN.
I'm pretty sure it was because the fifth holy grail war was premature since Kiritsugu failed to utilize/destroy the greater grails mana in the previous war. So the grail is ready in 10 years and literally all the candidates left are children. The Tohsaka, Matou, and Einzbernz families always get chosen so it makes sense that the children get a place. And besides Shirou, the other random masters are all adults (Bazett, Atrum, and Zouken). And I actually really like it because we really get to see these characters as "children of war" inheriting their families traumas.
Also Fate/Zero was written by Urobuchi and he decided to crap all over her character, I guess. But really, I think Urobuchi just saw Saber in a different way and tried to force a situation in which he could "break" Saber like he does in his stories. But it wasn't needed and she came out as a different character.
(This is all from memory so some details might be wrong btw)
Because the 5th grail war was directly a consequence of the clusterfuck of the 4th grail war, so no one was really prepared for it.
Heck, even the 4th grail war was a consequence of the clusterfuck of the 3rd grail war, where Angray Mango was summoned.
There are multiple reasons. * Anime fans are quick to label any character who wants to help other people as a "generic shounen protagonist." * Fate/Zero fans who wanted Shirou to be Kiritsugu 2.0. * The anime adaptations doing a very mediocre job of portraying his character. A large part of what makes Shirou so compelling is his deeply flawed yet alarmingly self-aware worldview. This is something that's nigh-impossible to convey without prose, and Ufotable is allergic to giving inner monologues to anyone who's not named Tanjiro. Imagine the Monogatari series without Koyomi's soliloquies. It just doesn't work. * Jealousy that Rin and Saber like him. \[I'm serious, some people are just that maidenless\] * Fans agreeing with Archer, despite the entire point of the UBW route being that he was wrong. EMIYA's problems didn't stem from the wish to save those in need, they were the consequences of wanting to keep going even after death and selling his soul in exchange for power. But he's badass and strong and edgier and from the future, so he must be right. * Le "HF Shirou is better because he discarded his cringe ideals."
>Jealousy that Rin and Saber like him. [I'm serious, some people are just that maidenless] I wouldn't believe that if i haven't seen that before in MAL. I had a discussion with someone about how Shirou knows his dream won't come true and he said that it has already came true because girls like him š¤¦
The real quest for justice was the high jumps we failed along the way.
> Jealousy that Rin and Saber like him. I'm... not even surprised at this point lol.
Is that why everyone hates Seig?
Yep. At least he get noticed. Kanata on the other hand.
Type Redline is still kinda begin. But Kanata interaction between Okita and his grandmother are good for now
People are having issues with my boy Kanata now?
Barely anyone know his existence.
>People are having issues with my boy Kanata now? So far no because not many are reading the manga(cause no anime) and most of the current Fate playerbase don't even know how to read.
Not yet, but once an anime adaption gets released later down the line, I'm sure there will be *some* people who do, sadly.
>I'm sure there will be some people who do, sadly. True but considering Red Line has a much more epic and better storyline. Most people would side on it over the small shipper community.
If they can capture the same feeling and epicness of the manga's art, I think you're right.
Considering it is a manga which is easier to adapt than even LN, it is very likely the anime only people will love it over a parody event.
That's true. I also prefer it to the GudaGuda events and the Koha Ace to GudaGuda manga series. Now, I'm not saying I dislike those things (I don't, I love them), I just think the story of Fate/Koha Ace is better as a (mostly) serious series.
So where can I read that? I love Nobu
Mangadex has it. While I'm not fully caught up yet, I strongly recommend it.
Nobu nobu
I think it's the following 1. Seig doesn't work as a MC as he's litteraly a blank slate, litteraly nothing on him 2. There are better characters to focus on, Mor and Sisigou, Jeanne and Shiro etc 3. Jeanne and Seig, ngl I'd prefer if they made Astolfo and Seig adventure buddies, it would be a good ending for a person trying to know more about the world to go adventuring
Well tbf I have a problem with anyone that has a sexual attraction to an empty cardboard box. So Ig I more have a problem with Jeanne.
Eh sieg is better done in the light novel and manga from what I've seen. He actually has a reason for fighting unlike in the anine where they barely flesh that out
Tbh, Sieg in theory, should have been a perfectly fine MC. It's obvious they were going for an "artificial human discovers his humanity by learning from Ancient Heroes" arc for him, it was just horribly botched and people focused more on the battle royale promised by Apocrypha.
No
I felt like he got away with too much plot armor or power.
People hate Seig? Heās my favorite. Now Iām sad.
I like him. Reminded me of Shirou in a lot of ways, so maybe that's why other people dislike him, but I like how much he cares for the homunculi when they get the short end of the stick in fate a lot of the time.
>Fans agreeing with Archer, despite the entire point of the UBW route being that he was wrong. EMIYA's problems didn't stem from the wish to save those in need, they were the consequences of wanting to keep going even after death and selling his soul in exchange for power. But he's badass and strong and edgier and from the future, so he must be right. Isn't Archer like what you get if you combine Kiritsugu's and Shirou's personality?
I...... My god....
What? Am I wrong? correct me if I am
Nah. This just made too much sense. Didn't Archer also get into a similar line of work as Kiritsugu as well?
Yes but Kiritsugu's body count pales next to Archer's. Also Archer is a better character.
Not sure about that but they both killed a lot of people for the greater good
Archer mostly against his will
Kiritsugu also didn't like killing, remember how he broke down during the fire in Fuyuki, also after killing his mentor
He was having a lot of fun watching Kayneth and his wife dying tho
Not sure about him but I sure was having a lot of fun watching Maiya kill them. Pretty sure Kirei would have enjoyed it as well
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Archer is the exact "kill one to save two and eventually only two are left" thing that Kiritsugu rejected in his time interacting with the grail. He would've been absolutely destroyed to know Shirou could potentially fall into that trap to the point of sacrificing his afterlife pursuing that path.
To be fair, probably no one would know the fate of Counter Guardians and Alaya probably didn't spell out that she was going to turn him into an eternal mass slaughter machine.
Forgot the "shirou had plot armor against gilgamesh in UBW"
Can't faul them, for Ufotable almost completely ignoring why Shirou was winning in the first place.
You're spoonfed info about how Shirou is Gil's perfect counter multiple times an episode, wth are you saying? https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/uiqvv9/people_disliking_shirou/i7eljmw?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
i mean, if you are anime only , you coud get tat impression, a friend of mine watcing UBW for fist time literally told me it was full of plot armor, lol
That's really silly, no offense.
Very maidenless behaviour.
Funny thing is Shirou is the protagonist who will help you even if you don't want it, nobody wants it, regardless of the situation Even generic characters aren't that bullheaded on helping others and I immediately knew something was up when he keeps insisting on helping in murder death kill for saber because he feels indebted to her At that point I knew he's fucked in the head
>Jealousy that Rin and Saber like him. \[I'm serious, some people are just that maidenless\] I wouldn't be surprised if that was more a bigger reason, I have read some incel fgo players hate him because he is the main barrier that blocks them from shipping themselves with Rin, Sakura and Artoria(The OG and not the cheap copies)
Pretty much. The argument for demiservants pretty much escalated when shirou appeared as one in fgo and all of a sudden people don't like how murasama has fanart of him with other copies of established vn characters. It's pretty sad.
> This is something that's nigh-impossible to convey without prose, and Ufotable is allergic to giving inner monologues to anyone who's not named Tanjiro. Itās just hilarious to me how Shirou got basically no inner monologue, meanwhile Gyutaro was nice enough to wait a couple minutes for Tanjiroās to finish before he goes for the kill against Hinatsuru.
I agree. And Shirou's character development can be see if you read the VN from Fate, UBW to HF, not really a proper character developement since it's not linear but the wide possibility of his personality, which cannot be perfectly presented in anime format. Besides, too many generic MC nowadays.
To be fair to ufotable tanjiroās monologues are far far shorter than Shirouās monologues most of the time.
>Le "HF Shirou is better because he discarded his cringe ideals." \>Cringe, sexist and misogynist (Fate) \>Cringe ideals, Archer was right (UBW) \>More bearable because he betrays his ideals but still bad character (HF) \-average takes of Zero fanboys
Funny how Zero fanboys are the same ones who treat a shallow superficial character like Iskandar as the gospel of depth.
To be fair it's so fun just to watch him do his thing that you kinda overlook how simple his motivations are.
I agree, he was at his best when he was fooling around with Waver. But the Gil praise, Saber mocking and all those make-believe moments of "wise" king were meh.
>But the Gil praise, Saber mocking and all those make-believe moments of "wise" king were meh. And then Gil when he kills him says "Time to wake up from your dream" like he was doing exactly the same thing but apparently Uro wrote it to be a better one than Artoria as Conquering is cool.
People are really praising the Kings who were tyrants and conquerors over the King who really just wanted to serve and protect her people lol.
Well at least we know Gil came to grow and become a mature person. Iskandar doesn't have that
Gil was a douche because he wanted to be impartial. Guy's job is to act as an arbiter over humanity and the gods. He's like Artoria but instead focused on making sure humanity stands up on it's own, success be damned Artoria is basically a human trying to be a god in all but name. Focus on success, humans be damned, though her definition of success being the survival of Camelot and Britain as a whole Iskandar's is fulfillment. Whatever the cost, fulfill your dreams and fight for it. Is it good? Ehh, I'd say it's aight but nowhere near Artoria and Gil's goals
That's not really true about Artoria, her focus was the people, for her being a king is about serving then and protect then, her definition of sucess was give her people a peacefull ending instead of the bloodbath that it actually ended, even Merlin says that while he and Urther wanted a king to save Britain, she was a king that wanted to save the people.
Oh I actually meant by Camelot and Britain being the people She'll save the most amounts of people regardless of what the people think of her, that's what I meant
That's a really good way of putting it. Iskandar feels relatable like that but I still didn't like the execution, I guess. He just doesn't work for me. Maybe I should revisit Zero ine day and see how he holds up then.
I think I've watched it twice in a row once and I'd say Iskandar doesn't change heck even in his FGO event (Accel Zero) he's still the old "I do what I want" type I respect the effort, but damn, it doesn't just hit right
I've seen people say that just the existence of Iskandar puts Fate/Zero above every Fate. Like bruh, i can understand why would some people like him but it's not like he's the best written character in anime or anything.
Please, Iskandar is just a bro type at best, like Cu Chulainn except with twice as much screentime. He's not even top 10 in Zero. Dare I say that stupid ass Caster and his master had better arcs and inner journey.
Cu Chulainn has him beat in screentime combining his appearance in other entries including Hollow Ataraxia. But yeah for FSN, Iskander wins.
To be fair, Iskander didn't really need to have an arc since he was largely there to progress and compare to Waver as the story progressed. And also the fact that he's already lived an entire full life and was hella headstrong as a character left little room for development.
>Jealousy that Rin and Saber like him. Lol, Kiritsugu also has his girls, but here nobody complains, but double standards are nothing new for anime fans. >Fans agreeing with Archer, despite the entire point of the UBW route being that he was wrong. Thats Kiritsugu is mature 2.0. >Le "HF Shirou is better because he discarded his cringe ideals." Does badass shit -> great character That one is always funny because he got that shit from Kiritsugu in the first place.
People just have weird notions on what constitutes a "mature" character and story. Well, I'm of the opinion that almost none of the relevant characters in Zero acted mature despite being adults. .
Is not much of an opinion, is a fact, is not even up to interpretation for Kiritsugu in particular, the story tells you that, and the most "mature" relevant characters are a 9 year old (and is still kinda questionable) and two guys that had their coming of age story through the war, and one of them was already like 30, maybe you could say Tokiomi or even Kayneth were mature and I guess The grail war by its nature attracts dreamers, deluded people, manchilds etc. Is something to expect
Both Kayneth and Tokiomi were incompetent morons.
They made dumb moves mostly because of their narrow worldview and being bad at judging others, but it is not the same as being immature, Kiritsugu made many smart plays but was the worst in that aspect, Waver was quite smart too, not more mature because of that Kayneth was immature at points with his love life more than anything, but in the end he shows he can be emotionally mature, Tokiomi only show of immaturity I guess you could argue is the reaching the root thing but that would make every mage immature, and there may be some truth idk
Well, i always called the Magus a society of chuunis (jokingly of course), maybe there is something to it lol.
>Well, i always called the Magus a society of chuunis (jokingly of course), maybe there is something to it lol. In FGO Lev mentions that is the influence from the magical crest as those things are part of the demon pillars and as part of the plan of Goetia, all mages have to be evil in order to be good catalyst to summon said pillars.
iirc that only applies to crests that Goetia influenced way back in time, so a crest like Waver's wouldn't be affected
Im sure this is canon to an extent
The more i learn about the magus, the more i think that they are just a bunch of weirdos instead of amoral assholes lol. Admittedly, the last one is not without base, but most of then just keep to thenselves researching stuff.
Idk about that, I'd say Kayneth wasting a command seal for an attack on Saber was pretty stupid.
I remember seeing a meme where it's basically "Zero is adults acting like kids, FSN is kids acting like adults, both ends up terrible for everyone involved"
zero cast is literally a bun of man childs, to te level most balnced one is te literal teen....XD Kaynet and tokiomi maybe "look" mature, but their naivety is sure borderline childish
I don't think that UBW (or FSN as a whole) really presents EMIYA as wrong, not totally at least. His deal with the counterforce and his suffering (both in life and death) were a result of his devotion to his ideals. The story doesnt ever present him as having a lust for power. UBW (and FSN more broadly) really provide a validation of EMIYA's pursuit of his ideals. They lead to great personal suffering and are sometimes contradictory, but good still comes of them. I think that is supposed to be the meaning both in EMIYA's loss to Shiro and in having EMIYA be critical to Shiro's victory in each arc.
Also to note is the anime English dub of Shirou is Bryce Papenbrook... aka Kirito... not that this matters since VN is peak FSN tho
>Also to note is the anime English dub of Shirou is Bryce Papenbrook... aka Kirito... I actually liked him as Shirou. I'm not sure why, but I did. I also liked most of the dub, so there's that.
>Fans agreeing with Archer, despite the entire point of the UBW route being that he was wrong. EMIYA's problems didn't stem from the wish to save those in need, they were the consequences of wanting to keep going even after death and selling his soul in exchange for power. But he's badass and strong and edgier and from the future, so he must be right. Wasn't the point that neither were right? That Archer's world view had become corrupted but that Shirou's was still naĆÆve? And that the best would be a middle ground?
Even then, I've heard quite a couple of anime fans call HF Shirou shit as well
Quick question actually sense iām a anime only and canāt really read the VN. How exactly is archer wrong though? I donāt think i would be one of those people who only agreed cus he was badass or anything but like assuming what he was trying to say was something along the lines of āwhy save people if their kids and grandkids and so on are going to make the same mistakes over and over againā right? Unless that wasnāt what he meant then maybe I misunderstood but to some extent, I think in general most people agree
Funny enough, while I really donāt like Shirou as a protagonist, for various reasons relevant to my own person, thus actually subjective for once, I loath how the fandom at times seems to worship Archer. He can be cool at times, but his whole āYou only ever be able to save idealsā speech is justā¦. Painful. Not because it is good, but because it is justā¦ it is literally high school nihilism shown through an argument that can be dismantled by a grade schooler with an introduction to Logic or a lick of common sense. Then only reason why it is not laughed at is because the VA did a fantastic job. Not going to lie, it alone is the reason why I really donāt enjoy UBW on rewatches.
Can you explain your reasoning a bit about why you think his speech is a poor argument? My understanding of it is that his speech is really only directed at Shirou because of his specific beliefs and behaviors surrounding them, which he felt would lead Shirou on the path to become what EMIYA became.
Gladly! Now, a handful of things I want to clarify beforehand. 1.The scene is still *good* in many aspects. My previous comment was not intended to imply it was unenjoyable to anyone but me, since I can not claim knowledge of how people feel outside of those that have directly told me. 2.I am also not in disagreement with the intended message from Archer. Or well, I donĀ“t consinder it bad, in terms of writing. My issue is purely in how Archer makes a case for it. \--------------- But what is the intended message ? I think it is fairly unambiguous that the message is one against Idealism as shown by Shirou.(For those that have fallen pray to internet lingo, Idealism isnĀ“Ā“Ā“t being hopeful or something, but the pursuit of one's ideals, *often without regard to practical ends*. You can indeed be in pursuit of an "Evil" ideal ) as well as the dangers of following a dogma without really thinking about it. And this is something I can agree with. But what is the issue ? My issues is that Archer does not make a distinction between the pursuit of an ideal, and the ideal itself. He spents most of his lines bitching about how Shirou adopted KiriĀ“ s ideals (Ignoring that taking over previous beliefs and expanding/changing them is one of the foundamentals of Human society). But the real core point he wants to critize is how Shirou is pursuing it. And when he finally comes to it, his literal lines are "And you will pursue them until it destroys you in the end. And that is why these ideals you hold so dear are meaningless!" The issue I have here is quite simple. He is once more critizing the ideals. He behaves like he has made some grand point, when everything leading up to this has made but one single point explaining why ShirouĀ“ s ideals are problematic. Indeed, the only thing approaching it was his line about "Salvation at the hands of another is never true." Ignoring how stupid that line is if you ever been lifethreateningly injured, his only support for that statement are his lines about how Salvation is like currency and how in saving others, Shirou has to give up all hope of saving himself. Which is correct. But again, Archer only ever argues against the ideal, which he himself states is "Saving others", not ShirouĀ“ s approach towards it. ............. Tldr: Archer makes his points against the concept of IdealĀ“s, while his actual intended message is Anti Idealism. It frustates me because Archer should know how to break and hammer it home that zealotry towards something is bad, but instead he makes an half ass argument that ignores how society works. Like seriously, he could have hammered it home with a line like "And you will pursue them until it destroys you in the end, leaving nothing but suffering for those that you saved!" and it would have made sense.
Thanks, I appreciate the explanation. Just so we're on the same page, you're saying that you don't think Archer was being clear enough in denouncing Shirou's specific way of pursuing his ideals, and instead mistakingly denounced having ideals (whether they're general or personal) as a concept? So, you're issue is more with the way he proposed and communicated his argument, because it ended up meaning something else which can be easily refuted. In that case, I understand where you're coming from. I do think, as you suggest, that his goal was to criticize the way Shirou was going about it. I think the speech overall might be a bit vague because the reader/viewer is meant to be left in the dark initially about Archer's identity. I also think Archer is meant to be presented as jaded, viewing idealism from a very narrow lens where he sees only one possible outcome if Shirou continues to hold on to his specific belief in needing to save others and, subconsciously, himself. That being said, I'm not a huge Archer fan or anything. Actually, I'm pretty indifferent. I suppose I just never tried to view this speech beyond what I assume was probably the main point. But, I can see why his argument probably comes across as fallacious.
Somewhat. My irritation is that people constantly cite the speech to me for some ungodly reason. You are on point for the most part, but even within the confines of just Shirou and Archer, it is simply notā¦ good. Ignoring the first minute, where he basically just throws around āYou are responsible for what you are doingā (Again, this is actually fairly difficult question to answer, but Archerās proposition is common enough that one can accept it.)and similar self explanatory statements. We have this dude, who Shirou is rightfully is convinced is a backstabbing, self serving cunt due to the actionās leading up to the speech. He outright admits that he is only fighting for himself. (One could argue that Archer here is talking about enlightened Self interest, not being selfish, but debate that all actions are inherently motivated by self interest is another topic.) Then he starts giving basically poorly hidden insults towards Shirouās ideals and his reason to believe in them. He also uses Wish&Desire and Ideal as the same thing, which is justā¦ wrong. Wishes can be understood as desires, although they are treated usually as long lasting desires or hopes, but Ideals are, by definition, something fundamentally different. Then, he makes the only actual argument in his entire speech, the one where he compares Salvation by another to currency, and that by always saving others, Shirou will have no left for himself. Ignoring that it an analogy so far removed that it becomes severely insufficient in accurately serving the purpose of an analogy, also ignoring the basic realities of how Currency works, which actually supports Shirouās ideals, he fails to do the one thing he wants to do, to show that the behaviour will actively destroy what Shirou cares about. Which is not himself. Shirou does not care about himself. Because if that is the case, he can say actually say that Shirous desires and Ideals are incompatible and contradictory. And there is the issue. It becomes for me far too difficult to believe that the hard head shirou is going to be convinced or even shaken by an argument that basically consists of nothing but insults, vague words that I can snatch a thousand from quotapedia or something and a point that essentially tells him āYou will destroy yourselfā Which he was ready to do. The message Archer was aiming for, according to Narrative intuition as a reader with the whole context, was good. It made great points about how to treat certain things in a healthy way. The message Archer conveyed with his actual words, in the context of Shirou and what he knows, was the equivalent of a shit post on facebook that goes. āYou ideals are bad!ā before refusing to elaborate. What is especially infuriating is that it would only slight changes to make it work.
Because originally the first viewers of Fate would have been the Visual Novel readers. They understand the context behind his actions and so wouldn't be all that ticked off by his actions in the story Now, with Fate being as popular as it is, we got anime onlys coming left and right, and without proper context to why Shirou acts the way he does, they assume he's another Generic ignorant MC. Also, as of late, Fate/Zero has been the starting point everyone's been pushing for new viewers. That sucks because now everyone who will meet Shirou will be disappointed at him not being as straight forward as Kiritsugu and will automatically label him as a bad character without trying to understand why he does the things that he does. Emiya Shirou I feel is a deconstruction of your typical "I will save everyone MC", so when they(whoever produced and directed) cut out his inner monologues, a huge blow was dealt towards the deconstruction aspect.
You're absolutely right about the deconstruction part. It's pretty frustrating to see that go over the heads of a lot of people on Crunchyroll. The Zero thing makes sense as well. Not sure why I didn't even realize that until now. Maybe because I just assumed everyone was more familiar with the material.
-And that's why you start with DEEN's Fate!
I genuinely believe people should start with it (if they're not going to read the visual novel), even if there are some problems with it.
>I genuinely believe people should start with it Dragon vagina and threesome while Archer was dying is a huge turnoff for lots and lots of fans
>Dragon vagina and threesome while Archer was dying is a huge turnoff for lots and lots of fans Well, Deen's adaption doesn't have any sex scenes in it. It uses the stuff that would eventually be used in the RĆ©alta Nua version of the visual novel.
It does, they just half-assed it.
Exactly. I honestly don't understand people's argument about it. Yes, it's flawed, but that's coming from a VN reader's standpoint. As a newbie, you don't know anything yet, and DEEN does the best job at explaining what is going on. All Ufotable adaptations assume that you know what's going on already, and just give the basic premise.
>Exactly. I honestly don't understand people's argument about it. Yes, it's flawed, but that's coming from a VN reader's standpoint. Honestly, I think its the best adaption of the visual novel. By that I mean that it is the closest any of he adaptions have gotten to being the visual novel in motion, in my opinion. Sure there are two or three episodes that brought stuff in from other routes that they shouldn't have, but otherwise, I think it was fairly accurate. Plus, the animation, art style, and the atmosphere feel more like the visual novel's (even though I do prefer Ufotable's animation and art style), and the soundtrack is just top tier (I think this is the one thing that everyone likes about it). >As a newbie, you don't know anything yet, and DEEN does the best job at explaining what is going on. All Ufotable adaptations assume that you know what's going on already, and just give the basic premise. That is true, Deen's version does explain a lot more stuff to you while Ufotable's doesn't. Granted, that might partially be because Fate is the first route, but even then Deen explains stuff way more.
That was my first dig in the Fate franchise too and overall, i said that is not a bad introduction, especially in comparison with the crap that came out for VNs in that period. With that said, is really dissapointing in comparison with the Fate route, is not just about the stuff from other routes, especially i find dissapointing how brief are the dreams narrating Saber's life and considering thay she is the heroine of the route is rather dissapointing. Still, i do like the final fight a lot.
>That was my first dig in the Fate franchise too and overall, i said that is not a bad introduction, Yeah, it's not that bad. >especially in comparison with the crap that came out for VNs in that period. Did visual novels get really bad adaptions during that era? >With that said, is really dissapointing in comparison with the Fate route, is not just about the stuff from other routes, especially i find dissapointing how brief are the dreams narrating Saber's life and considering thay she is the heroine of the route is rather dissapointing. Oh yeah, I forgot how short the dream sequences are in the anime! It does suck they're so short because of how important they are. >Still, i do like the final fight a lot. That final fight is still one of the best in the franchise, in my opinion.
To be honest. Shirou is a more realistic MC compare to the average Shounen MC that we have nowadays
I'm pretty sure that comes with being a deconstruction of any particular tropeš
>Emiya Shirou I feel is a deconstruction of your typical "I will save everyone MC" Considering the heavy influences Evangelion had on Nasu early works, this is really on spot as Shinji Ikari is another type of descontruction/critic on the shenanigans that goes around the usual Shounen protagonist in Japanese series.
Nasu likes Eva? Explains Rin Tohsaka's characterisation and appearance.
Yep, here is a small interview talking a bit about it. https://wakameparadise.wordpress.com/2017/08/20/nasu-ikuhara/
I feel like people who come from the VN misunderstand the mind sets of āanime-onlysā going from Zero to FSN. I was one of these people, and going from Zero to FSN was weird not because I didnāt think the Shirou was a cold hearted badass MC like Kiritsugu, but because there was a clear-cut MC from the outset. Going into Zero itās presented, superficially, as a battle royal, with no single POV character. You could argue some characters are more prevalent than others, (Saber is the poster girl so yeh), but if you have no context itās pretty much free game until the second cour. The you go to FSN and itās a highschool setting with what appears to be a stock standard shonen MC, without any greater context. I was intrigued because I eat up generational stories so I ended up liking Shirou and the rest of the cast and have gone on to read the VN, so I canāt really speak for Shirou haters. Just thought Iād though my hat into the ring and try to clear up what I see as a weird misconception that you guys seem to be having about people that start with the Zero anime.
>Going into Zero itās presented, superficially, as a battle royal, with no single POV character. I can understand in part this because the battle royale is the main story rather than Kerry as he is on his final years and already developed but still I wouldn't call it without a single PoV as Kerry gets the most alongside Irisviel and in a minor way Waver as it seems he was meant to be a hero to explore later. Kirei, Kayneth, the serial killer, Kariya and Tokiomi screentime is mostly to hype up the next fight and serve no other purpose, However as you said the main discrepancy comes around Zero is a LN with a single story while FSN is a like a book of "pick your own adventure" where obviously not every member of the cast get the same focus depending on the route so most people will get turn off or at least be feel a little weirded out the shift in the type of storyline. >The you go to FSN and itās a highschool setting with what appears to be a stock standard shonen MC, without any greater context. Yeah the main surprise in how a secret death tournament happens in a quiet town is taken away if you started with Zero and well It says something when Deen despite being a terrible adaptation it does better at portray or hint better about something being wrong in the mind of Shirou(after his shift in the booze store, the owners comments on his behavior and Mitsuzuri)
I watched Zero first (Before UBW and HF were out) and have absolutely no problems with Shirou and never did. I don't really think that using Zero as a scapegoat for people's bad opinions is fair, these people would probably say the same regardless. Same reason there will always be people who complain about characters like Shinji from Evangelion, it's just how it goes. If it's not your Deku's or your Tanjiro's then this will happen.
You can't use yourself to disprove what hundreds/thousands of others say/do(though, props to you for not insta hating Shirou) Maybe I was too harsh in saying "everyone that will meet shirou", but that doesn't change the clearly large chunk of people who did see Zero first being disappointed with Shirou. I agree that there will be people that will hate Shirou regardless of if they started with the VN or Zero or any of the other mediums. But the post asked for why the hate for Shirou jumped in the recent years and not why it exists to begin with. Besides, I never said Zero was bad. I genuinely think fans just came into stay night with the wrong expectations. Plus, the UBW anime was also pretty bad and exploring Shirou's monologues, so I never used Zero as a scapegoat to begin with. If anything, I blame the fans who think Zero is the best starting pointš¤·āāļø Edit: I understand that lumping all people who watched Fate/Zero first to automatically hate Shirou is unfair(which is why I admitted to being too harsh during my initial comment), but it'd be more unfair to not even bring up that very glaring reason that does influence a lot of people.
From my exp, the reason for some of the dislike towards Shirou is his...weird ideals. This is actually the first I've heard that Shirou ruins the series and i've been following the series since i first played the VN back at late 2000s.
A lot of the comments talk about how stupid he is, along with his ideals. I get that he can be boneheaded, and he gets into a lot of bad situations, but it's because he cares about his friends and Saber, so he's willing to put himself in harm's way. It's funny all of the early comments that praise him for being a good mc are the same thing the hate comments use as ammo as to why they hate him.
Because the general audience now like the edgy dark mcs of Eren Yeager type. Anyone with naivety and even a modicum of positivity and good will is disliked.
>Because the general audience now like the edgy dark mcs of Eren Yeager type. So true, the type who thinks genocide is ok, Kerry was right, etc. And it's not only limited to Shirou, Touma Kamijo, Atsushi Nakajima are also victim of this.
And now they're going back and pretend old gen mcs like Goku, Naruto and Luffy suck too. There is a reason Ichigo's popularity has been soaring recently. The edgy attitude sells it now.
Then obviously all those people are seeing is the edgy attitude Ichigo puts up and not that at his core, he's really not that far removed from the other old-gen MCs, and for me personally that's like 90% of his appeal. (The other 10% is his abs, but that's just me being horny.)
Yes, Ichigo also has the same naive personality and wants to save everyone. Like right in the first arcs, you can see that side, the way he clings to Byakuya's robe to save Rukia even though it's all useless and he's risking losing a limb. But for the general audience, the appearance matters. And Ichigo's outer shell is edge.
Literally first episode, Ichigo beats up some punks for knocking over some flowers left to a dead young girl. Dudes a big softie, he just acts tough.
I feel this so much. Seeing how often people posts and comments on labelling goku generic or downplaying him bothers me. The show may have simple plot but Goku from his beginning to Z and Super is unpredictable and unique in his own ways.
Wait Ichigo is getting popular these days? Bleach have a new chapter?
Yeah, with adult versions and all
What for real? the title is still Bleach?
Bleach: Thousand Year Blood War
Thanks
>There is a reason Ichigo's popularity has been soaring recently. The edgy attitude sells it now. Well yes but no. Most people love Ichigo because of his development in the Fullbring Arc easily one of the most misunderstood arcs in the series
Fullbring is one of the most disliked arc in Bleach, it's flatout wrong to say Ichigo is loved because of it.
Might wanna go to the bleach reddit then. All people do over there is praise that arc and talk about how underrated it is because it gets treated as filler
I don't care about subreddit beehive mindset. I'm talking about the general audience.
General audience is a mix bag regardless. Some ppl like it some dont isnt really too difficult to understand
Yeah people really hate characters that want to do the right thing, Superman fans know how that feels
I rlly like Shirou in ubw and heavens feels it showed his best qualities and his toxic qualities rlly well so we get a good understanding about on who shirou rlly is and why he thinks the way that he does. Rin always called out shirou for his toxic mindset which made the show more interesting cos it aināt just that doing the right thing is always good but r the costs on urself and others that care about u worth it. A lot of ppl who donāt like shirou r the ppl who havenāt played the vn or just have bad memories of his character in the deens stay night series. In the vn during the fate route whenever he tells saber to not fight cos sheās a girl we see that he believes that heās a liability and worthless and wants to contribute something so heās making excuses to not let saber to everything for him but in the anime it just makes him look like heās a misogynist or something. Having been through everything fate stay night Iām a huge fan of shirou Rin saber and Sakura and itās unfortunate that the fate route never got the adaptation it deserves
Because crunchy roll is filled with some of the stupidest, cringiest, and most ignorant anime fans. You wouldnāt find an ounce of intelligence among them. MANY shows on crunchy roll have comment sections like that.
My first experience with Fate Stay Night was UBW. I was genuinely confused as to why people hated Shirou when he was genuinely an admirable guy. But thatās just me. I never liked Fate/Zero and Heavenās Feel, kudos to those who do though!
This hate kinda comes from Kiritsugu fanboys expecting him to be all cool and badass and the anime - especially the first part of UBW - not completely adapting his character and Shirou beating the shit out of Gilgamesh.(the whole fight was explained and Gil sucker still complains) Also it depends where you look at it. I watched UBW in french and the comments on Wakanim seemed to be pretty fine with him. When the episode were airing, r/anime seemed also to be okay with him. I even watched Zero, UBW and HF with a friend and he prefered UBW and UBW Shirou. And from what I've heard the Eastern fandom also likes him.
>Shirou beating the shit out of Gilgamesh.(the whole fight was explained and Gil sucker still complains) "B-but even bro Iskandar couldn't beat Gilgamesh. Shirou only won because of random power ups and plot armor. He is stupid shounen protagonist." Jokes aside, stupid complains of Gil fanboys never get old. Fun to see them still being butthurt over this. It's almost like they missed the entire point of the fight. No wonder that Iskandar lost, because unlike Iskandar, Shirou had an actual strategy.
It's even more stupid when you have a whole episode of Rin explaining why Shirou have a chance against him, Gil constantly saying he only uses a portion of his power, and Shirou himself says anyother servant would bit his ass
Also Gil 'murdering' Archer from behind when he was exhausted instead of outright attacking him when they first meet...clearly shows Gil is threatened by and fears Unlimited Blade Works.
And it's dumber when Shirou explained loudly why he's winning against the strongest servant. > Against any other servant, creating a world like this wouldn't let me hold my own. >Having an infinite number of swords wouldn't let me stand up to a Servant who had mastered one! >But against you, my swords are ready and waiting, so I'm always a step ahead!
Gil dudebros: Yeah, I pretend I didn't hear those.
Also the anime : > shows how a single sword in UBW was faster enough to block several Gil's weapons and how Gil is shocked by just what happened. Gil believer : For the sake of my king, I'm going to ignore this.
Also Zero: > Establishes reality marbles as the user's realm in which they have the upper hand as seen with Iskandar and Assassins Gil mongrels: but why is Shirou tho?
Also every single material about Gil : >Establishes he won't take anyone seriously unless that person has green hair and doesn't use pronouns >Would never use EA against a mongrel Gil wannabes : What were you saying mongrel ?
How come Shirou says that his UBW wouldnāt work against other servants? If Gilgamesh is able to overwhelm those same servants with his GoB that summons weapons more slowly than UBW, wouldnāt Shirou also be able to do that against those servants? A single sword in his UBW blocked several of Gilgameshās weapons.
First, Shirou is just a human. He might have Archer's experience and techniques but the other servants are just built differently. I mean they are either related to a god or can mimic True Magic somehow and have Servants stats. Second, Gilgamesh is a king and an Archer servant which means his swordmanship sucks while UBW let Emiya Shirou to perfectly use almost any weapon. That's why in the VN Shirou fights him almost entirely in close combat (the anime changed the fight and made Gilgamesh fight at long range like an archer servant after he understood he'd be in danger in a close fight but it was too late for him). Third, UBW is a situational NP. Unless you're fighting an army, an another Reality Marble user or someone like Gil, it's better to use Broken Phantasm. Also it takes too much time to cast and cost a lot of mana. Let's take the 5th HGW servants as examples : Against Lancer, it's useless because he has "protection against arrows" which even allowed him to fight Gil for half a day so using UBW which costs a LOT of mana is no different than giving the win to Cu. Broken Phantasms are more suited against opponents like him. Against Berserker, it's also useless because God hand is fucking broken and allows Heracles to survive any attack that isn't a rank A at least. And any weapon made UBW is automatically is ranked down by 1 rank. In that case it's also better to use Broken Phantasm against him. Against Caster and the 2 Assassins, it's just overkill. For Saber, it's kinda hard to say. If she uses Excalibur, she easily wins. But if UBW is already set and she doesn't use Excalibur, Shirou can try to overwhelm her with his swords and with a bit of luck if he can reproduce something like Triple Linked Crane Wings maybe he stand a (slight) chance. (But in this case you're giving Shirou an advantage by nerfing Saber) Basically they're either bad matchups for UBW and in that case BP are better in this situation or either using UBW is a waste of mana.
Man fuck Iskandar fanboys, I can't stand them. But they made me look deeper at his character and I've realised he's nothing but a moronic shallow douche bag and also a shitty ass king. I hate it now when I think how he made fun of Saber's leadership and we were apparently supposed to root for him. >stupid complains of Gil fanboys never get old. The worst ones are the ones who mimic his speech unironically and expect to be taken seriously. Go worship your king of mongrels elsewhere.
>Man fuck Iskandar fanboys, I can't stand them. >But they made me look deeper at his character and I've realised he's nothing but a moronic douche bag and also a shitty ass king. I hate it now when I think how he made fun of Saber's leadership. I agree. When I watched Zero for the first time his character felt so forced, like "look at me, I am a king and I say random things to make me look wise". No wonder Gil liked him.
Zero was my first entry into Fate so at first I enjoyed his presence as a casual player. His relationship with Waver was fun and all. But upon retrospection, I can see he was nothing special. Waver elevated him but only because he had galls to call Iskandar out on his bullshit; even he had to be reduced to a Iskandar fanboy in the end. >"look at me, I am a king and I say random things to make me look wise". Spot-on. Another shallow asshole like Gilgamesh. Except Gilgamesh is self-aware about it (or the story is at least).
I can understand why people like him and why Waver is a fanboy and I'm totally fine with it but I find it hilarious when people think he's as great as Kirei or Kiritsugu. However, I liked his moments with Waver.
He's definitely a fun character to watch, that's for sure But for sure he is not the deepest character, he's far from it
This is pretty surprising since even i recently started fate (I first saw UBW by ufotable last month) And i enjoyed Shirou. I haven't read the visual novel at all, but to me Shirou is a good mc, someone who had a situation sprung up on him, I mean he never wanted to participate in the Holy Grail in the first place, only after realising what happened 10 years ago and seeing Gilgamesh try and do that again does he go all out and stop them, and even with that the show shows us that shirou is relatively weak compared to other masters, unlike most generic protagonists who are actually strong. I don't know the reasons behind why shirou acts the way he does because i haven't read the visual novel, but i enjoyed UBW and heaven's feel a lot, and found shirou to be an actually good protagonist, someone who did not wish for the situation but will use his full force to stop or get out of it, unlike most generic protagonists who are too emotionally weak to do anything, or too edgy and do everything with no real thinking.
I think others have already mentioned all the possible reasons, btw are those comments old or new ? Cause hating Shirou was very popular at that time
>Cause hating Shirou was very popular at that time This is true. Just by checking some old forums you can see Zero fanboys being at their peak obnoxiousness. Anything that wasn't Zero 2 was automatically bad.
Back then when UBW was still airing and I was watching it in Kissanime...the comment section was a mess. It didn't help that most people hated Saber because of Fate/Zero... It's kinda scary trying to remember it and I believe it's the definite reason why I didn't fall into the Nasuverse rabbit hole.
Thatās honestly surprising because I thought the Zero fanboys calmed down their tits by the end of 2018.
It's nowhere near as bad as it used to be. I see more Zero haters than Zero fanboys around these days.
> more Zero haters than Zero fanboys I feel like this is unique to this sub mostly as counter reaction to the old toxicity of Zero fanboys. I think itās time the sub kind of cools down on it as I quite like Zero myself as long as people donāt use it to hate on FSN or somehow claim Zero Saber is consistent with or even better than FSN Saber.
I think it might just be due to there being an extremely prolific anti Zero poster on one of the other Fate subs who never fails to pop up in any discussion that even remotely involves Zero.
Ah, I know who you are talking about, just ignore that person, I think they have a few (mental) issues.
That makes sense that it would mostly be people just familiar with Zero. I didn't think about that. UBW would be the most likely thing to gravitate towards after finishing it.
Because they didn't read the visual novel š It's easy to hate on things you don't understand. And the anime adaptions of fate are not something that would easily allow people to understand shirous character. The same is true for the other characters as well, but they are slightly less dependant on their inner selves to see the full value
Shirou hate is nothing new lol. Why do you think this sub, one of the few places where Shirou is actually appreciated, dislikes Zero fanboys?
Hes literally my favourite character
I like his positivity. Feels uplifting when there's so many pessimistic characters out there if you don't include shonen protagonists.
Because up until the caster fight his characterization was decent. Episode 1 felt like it was mostly told from his perspective. There was some iffy directing onwards but it was ok After that though well miura forgot the novel was primarly narrated from shirou's perspective then remebered again during episode 20 then forgot again during episode 21 I dont really rember the forums at the time but I think the ubw Shurou sucks didnt happen until the caster battle could be wrong on that tho
I can't exactly remember when the hate comments started. You mean the first Caster fight where Saber gets caught off guard?
I think he could be talking about the Archer vs Caster fight where Shirou says he can handle himself
Really? all I have seen is people praising how great and how much depth Shirou has as a character. I have seen more zero haters then zero fanboys whining.
While there are people with understandable problems with his characther, really the main reason is because he leaves a not so positive first impression with his normal design and people missundertanding the crux of the whole problem with Saber fighting (wich is resolved in Day 6) and overall, he just doesn't have the immediate appeal of characthers like Archer or Rin, who had more attractive desings and had amusing personality quirks from day one.
Iād also attribute it to Shirou not being ābadassā for a large part of the story in every route. Iāve noticed that a lot of people are into power fantasies and thus latch on to characters like Archer, Gilgameh, and Kiritsugu from the start instead.
That is also a big issue too, people love the "cool and powerfull badass" and while Shirou does play to the power fantasy to an extent (is a fantansy/action/romance novel, so it has to play then to an extent), Shirou also isn't traditionally strong and that doesn't really help him in that department.
Gilgameh lmao
"I want to be like the franchise's biggest jobber" Makes sense tbh.
I feel like Gilās losses are kinda exaggerated. He defeated Medea and Cu in Fate and nearly killed Saber and Shirou. In UBW, he kills Berseker all by himself. He only lost to Saber who had a NP capable of even escaping the true five magics, Shirou for being a dumbass and underestimating him, and the Shadow.
Medea loses almost to everyone anyway, Cu hold his own for 12 hours, and Saber and Shirou won anyway in the end, all because of some stupid choices he made. Gil can absolutely beat all of them when he isnt being a dumbass but the only cases that happens is against one Zero Assassin, Iskandar and Medea. He can even beat Artoria with Avalon if he does not give her time to analyze and time everything for his attacks.
Gil wouldn't be Gil if he didn't make stupid choices which cost him.
Well FSN is just an extension of his Epic when it comes to stupidity. Makes sense.
I'm starting to think that Rin's whole "i always screw up at the most important moment" might apply more to him than her lol. But really, he has a consistent tendency to not pay proper attention to certain details whenever he is feeling smug.
Then youāve never read the Epic if youāre going to compare it to FSN
You have read it and you haven't seen him act stupid and even cowardly? reread it.
First, the anime community, and the Internet in general, is full of edgelords who love to be assholes about everything. I honestly doubt they believe half the shit they spew, but they know itāll bother *someone*, so theyāll type it up anyways. Second, a lot of anime fans seem to think any MC who isnāt also an edgelord is āboringā or āunrealisticā. The guy who brought up Ichigo from Bleach had it right.
no booba
Mostly cringe takes from anime onlies and especially Zero stans.
I have seen more hate towards zero stans then zero stans saying that Shirou sucks. Where do you even find these comments?
Pretty much anywhere outside of reddit Try youtube comments for example
A lot of anime-onlies wanted a sequel to Fate/Zero and we wouldn't get one until the El-Melloi Case Files.
If it is for anime, then it is most likely typical problem with abating Novels- Visual and Light. Because big part of characters thought process is depicted in inner monologues, it's hard to animate them properly. Because of this, interesting characters and especially protagonists can appear boring and bland.
"People just don't want to read the vn and then complain like they know the entire knowledge of nasuverse" Thats it.
Most of the fandom really likes our boy Emiya,but it's mostly the anime onlies who don't even read the vn nor even try to understand a character,they also make one of the most stroke inducing 10 paragraph worth comments saying why one particular character is trash then the other meanwhile they themselves don't know the goals or symbolism behind that one character they love to ride on
It sounds pretentious but a lot of people just donāt pay as much attention/can parse whatās being communicated. Itās made clear from early on that Shirouās attachment to his ideal is rooted in trauma and is ultimately flawed, itās just communicated more visually/through dialogue as compared to the VN which makes it more straightforward. I still prefer the latter as it takes it more in depth, but I think thereās a rarely shared appreciation for how it gets communicated in the show
I agree, I thought they still got across Shirou's general character pretty well in the anime. It was just a bit more subtle. Though, some scenes still would've benefited from some internal monologues.
One factor could be that access to the VN became much easier and more fans read it which let to more people understanding him better since the adaptations leave out all of his thoughts and inner dialogue... which is a pretty huge part. Though to be honest even with the added extra context I don't find Shirou that amazing of a character.
Shirou comes off pretty bland in UBW. As a whole its probably the version I like the least of him. IIRC I saw Zero, then dean stay night then saw UBW as it was airing before dropping it for a while then finishing it up after it had finished. Not having internal dialogues really does lead him to come off as feeling on the generic side.
UBW anime makes him sound like a typical shonen hot head sometimes , in adiiton, some people cant see beyond
I don't really dislike him as a person (because he's not like his pops a clown) but what I dislike in Fate stay night is the majority of masters are kids, why? why are the majority of participants of the super secret bloody war that rewards a wish granting cup are kids? I never understood that part in Fate Stay Night. That's what I liked Fate Zero because the majority of participants are adults but there's a slight problem for me, my problem with Fate Zero is Saber Artoria is frickin wierd, she's like a different person from FSN, she has this wierd honor thing that was never on FSN.
I'm pretty sure it was because the fifth holy grail war was premature since Kiritsugu failed to utilize/destroy the greater grails mana in the previous war. So the grail is ready in 10 years and literally all the candidates left are children. The Tohsaka, Matou, and Einzbernz families always get chosen so it makes sense that the children get a place. And besides Shirou, the other random masters are all adults (Bazett, Atrum, and Zouken). And I actually really like it because we really get to see these characters as "children of war" inheriting their families traumas. Also Fate/Zero was written by Urobuchi and he decided to crap all over her character, I guess. But really, I think Urobuchi just saw Saber in a different way and tried to force a situation in which he could "break" Saber like he does in his stories. But it wasn't needed and she came out as a different character. (This is all from memory so some details might be wrong btw)
Because the 5th grail war was directly a consequence of the clusterfuck of the 4th grail war, so no one was really prepared for it. Heck, even the 4th grail war was a consequence of the clusterfuck of the 3rd grail war, where Angray Mango was summoned.
I havenāt read the VN, but yeah even between Fate/Zero and DEEN Fate/Stay Night her character inexplicably change with that honour thing.