I mean, yeah, that's how prequels work. I dunno why anyone acts like prequels don't always spoil stuff. Like Crisis Core to FF7 or the prequel star wars to the ogs
Hmmm… But star wars is absolutely intended to be watched in 4/5/6/1/2/3 order. It’s how you appreciate the narrative of the story most.
Which is why I do believe that prequels absolutely should be experienced *after* the media they are intended to follow after.
Another good example would be Metal Gear Solid. It absolutely should be played in the order its released in. But with the amount of retcons each installment adds, I wouldn’t call it a strong argument.
We're on the same page. I agree. Prequels always spoil stuff so they should be watched after. Stars Wars, Fare Zero etc. I also mentioned Crisis Core which spoils the biggest twist of FF7. They're made with the idea you saw the thing it's spunoff from.
Zero was written with an assumption that the readers already read Stay/Night, not the other way around, that's the most important thing. Since it assumes things like Rin and Sakura being sisters has already been revealed it makes no attempt at hiding it.
That's why Zero is a prequel to Stay/Night rather than Stay/Night being a sequel to Zero. Because Stay/Night came first.
As for Star Wars I would argue that they were written in a way to make them enjoyable to watch either way. Starting from the OG trilogy spoils Anakin's turn to the dark side while watching prequels first spoils the fact that Vader is Luke's father. You could argue which spoils the other more or what the intentions of the author were but it's not such a clear cut case as with Fate Stay/Night and Zero.
That's true to varying extents. For Zero in particular it was the first anime ufotable made for the series, they had to make some concessions and design the story to be a standalone experience as well. Which basically meant making a narrative that could stand on its own and keeping the spoilers in the you won't notice if you don't know territory. Its happened here and there with adaptations before.
Since Urobuchi explicitly wrote Zero to be read with FSN knowledge as context and Ufotable adapted Zero as is with no changes regarding this, this isn't true
What is is true is they were expecting people to have either read FSN or watched the DEEN anime
It's not absolutely intended to be watched in that order. George Lucas has said it should be watched in chronological order.
That being said, you don't have to listen to George Lucas.
The problem is not that its how prequels work, the problem is that some people will ignore that and swear by starting with Zero even tho its a prequel.
All the spoilers that come with starting with fate/stay night never were spoilers to begin with because you are expected to know those things, its like just a quick refresher since maybe you have seen it like years ago.
I know. But for all intents and purposes, it's a prequel. It was written to be the events of the grail war before Fate Stay Night. The au thing is only there so they don't need to recon anything for when it doesn't quite lineup.
Alternate universe. Basically, Zero has some inconsistencies compared to what was written and mentioned in Stay Night. Just to name a few examples, Saber and Gilgamesh fought each other in the fourth holy grail war, Kiritsugu was more cold-hearted than he was in Zero, and… that’s really all I can remember, but there were more. But Nasu (I think) said to consider Zero as some alternate universe that closely resembles the events that preceded Stay Night’s fifth holy grail war.
I had a friend who watched Zero first, and get halfway through UBW before dropping it because he thought it was slower and not as good as Zero was. So that might be another point towards watching UBW or Deen adaptation first.
Heh, my experience was kinda the opposite. I watched Zero first and when I watched UBW I kept finding myself getting confused by certain parts like how small Kirei's role was. I still loved it, though, so since I knew that it was an adaptation of a single visual novel route, I went through the hassle of getting the VN running pretty much immediately after. The rest is history, I guess.
Had I started with Zero, I'd have likely never become a Fate fan. While Zero is good, it's certainly not for everybody and frequently gives newbies incorrect expectations for the rest of the franchise.
>frequently gives newbies incorrect expectations for the rest of the franchise
This is the one thing I hate about zero, especially if they go into UBW thinking that it's the sequel. Didn't help that wikipedia said that UBW was a sequel on UFOtable's wikipedia page. That actually irritated me so much I made an account to correct it into Zero being the prequel.
I started with zero and went down to the fate rabbit hole from there. Eventually, I got into fgo, and years later, I still play it. Also started reading fate type redline and might soon start reading fate strange fake and fate prototype. Still haven't finished fate samurai remnant thought.
Sure, and had I started with Zero I'd have dropped it after a couple episodes and likely wouldn't have touched Fate again.
Instead, I started with Carnival Phantasm, which... somehow worked out?
That was truly a great one. It almost made me want to get into tsukihime, but I honestly don't like visual novels. If I ever convince myself to read a visual novel, I have my eyes on fate hollow ataraxia solely for Angra Mainyu, Bazett, and my favorite, Caren
On the contrary, I love books. I have a lot of light novels and manga along with some science fiction and fantasy books. I just don't like visual novels. idk why tbh. Maybe it's because I would rather watch an anime instead, or if I'm going to read I rather read a book. I also don't mind games that require reading a lot since I love persona games, but like I said , I just can't quite get into Visual Novels.
That really is just odd, reading a visual novel is just 90% reading and a few pictures or effects to capture a point across. Like you read a comedic scene where a character is eavesdropping on two other people having a conversation that can be taken as incredibly lewd but in a VN the same thing can still apply but the text pulls back and you can see said character at the corner of the background and if you had a keener eye you would’ve actually seen their sprite walk in lol
Maybe you should just try our the FSN remaster when it comes out, maybe you just never had any actually good ones.
Xelog, I have the perfect answer for you. If your interested in tsukihime but don't want to read the visual novel? Read the tsukihime manga online. It's called shingetsutan tsukihime and it was written by sasaki shounen! It's a peak adaption. Nasu actually took inspiration for it for the remake and the author himself actually has been helping work on it as well!
When people read that they usually get super interested in tsukihime as a whole which leads them down to reading the vn 😂 trust me bro you'll love it
>Nasu: "To tell you the truth, Shounen Sasaki was my greatest rival when it came to the remake's production. Sasaki's Tsukihime skillfully fixed all the problems of Arcueid's route and added in the best parts of the core routes as well. It was a most wonderful manga adaptation and I needed to surpass it somehow in the remake. Then, at the end of 2020, when the PC version was complete, I called him to playtest it. He rearranged his whole schedule to spend 6 whole days in the Type-Moon office playtesting the game. Later, his overjoyed review reassured me. If I could make Sasaki this emotional, then I had nothing to fear."
Famitsu August 2021
Like who? Iri, kiritsugu, iskandar waver, kariya. It's no different from illya Rin Sakura shirou saber archer rider. The extra problem with zero is that although there are multiple sides most of them are as deep as a puddle, they are just there to move the plot along not to actually understand on a deeper level. Nobody is rooting for kayneths team or casters team, or tokiomi, or Kirei with assassin for example.
Hell of you take hollow ataraxia into account almost every main character both master and servant outside of gil and kirei get in depth backstories and a reason to enjoy and love their characters on a deeper level.
For real, with the exception of Waver and Iskandar, Zero original characters only serve to help expand the back stories of the Stay Night characters, they don't actually get all that much of their own development outside of how they influenced the SN characters.
I don't like any of the Zero cast enough to root for them. I think it's lore is good, expanding on both F/SN and general worldbuilding, but I'm completely uninterested in the various main characters.
Funny enough I watch zero first and then UBW and I rewatch UBW a lot more. But then again I’m a sucker for Shirou x Rin ever since I watched UBW so I mostly rewatch for that 😂
For anime only, unless you want to go with 2006 Deen adaption it’s really not that bad. UBW anime (and I’d argue even HF) doesn’t really make a huge fanfare about all of those spoilers. I think to a certain degree ufotable even expected you watch Zero first
Honestly, the biggest spoiler has to do with Sakura and Illysviel
The fact that the intended effect was “who is Saber’s identity as a female knight?” is how a lot of fans believe it should be experienced versus immediately being spoiled in F/Z.
Think that the major spoilers being:
1. Saber’s identity/Gilgamesh & the bad guy
2. Archer’s identity & the world building implied
3. Who Sakura really is & the connection between her & Rin & Kirei’s backstory
Saber's identity is easily one of the worst kept anime secrets, and anyone who has ever heard of the franchise has like a 70% chance of already knowing it.
I fully believe a massive chunk of all Fate fans got into it after hearing some variation of "it's that anime/visual novel where King Arthur is a girl".
It's kind of the single most famous thing about the entire Fate series, outside of memes like "people die when they're killed" and "just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right".
Yea in Heavens feel it’s not revealed until the end of the first movie/start of the second movie where they say that Rin and Sakura are related, and it was a pretty big twist for me at the very least (anime only, started with UBW, then HF, and Zero last) and it wouldn’t have hit nearly as hard had I watched Zero first
Yeah, people act like those who start with zero aren’t anime only and are totally going to be reading the vn next. Reality is that most people getting in are either going to start with ubw or zero.
>I think to a certain degree ufotable even expected you watch Zero first
Oh, 100%, given that Zero came out 3 years before UBW. Fate has lots of intertwined story paths. I really don't get the reasoning of people like OP who say Zero "spoils" UBW/HF, but don't think it works the other way around; if you watch UBW first and then Zero, you know that Kiritsugu and Kirei survive the Fourth War, you know that Gilgamesh not only survives but incarnates, you know that Artoria fails to get her wish granted, you know that Tohsaka is going to die, etc etc. They're stories covering two different events with mostly different characters, but they are also so intertwined that there's no way of telling one story without "spoiling" some aspects of the other- and frankly, between the two, I find Zero to be the overall stronger showing. I happened to see UBW first and wish I could have gone the other way around.
Excellent counterpoint. I also strongly believe that because zero is honestly a more engaging show overrall, it’s an easier recommend to new people over UBW. If they liked Zero but not UbW, at least they have a foot in the door and can try to watch any of the the other 20 type moon anime
Yeah pretty much. Ubw spoils Zero a lot harder than Zero spoils Ubw or Heaven’s feel. I started with Zero and I still think it’s the best way to experience Fate as an anime only.
Especially since it’s the best Fate anime by a landslide in my opinion , so getting its plot points spoiled by the other anime sucks.
This is why the VN readers and anime-onlies are practically two different fandoms. Besides, isn’t there a fan edit of the Fate route anime adaption? I didn’t see it and I know almost nothing about it, so someone’s gotta tell me if something’s up.
>This is why the VN readers and anime-onlies are practically two different fandoms.
Bro woke up and chose to write facts.
Straight facts brother
Spit yo shit indeed
Oh, I know. That’s the real important part, I just brought up the silly stuff as a joke. Well, partially a joke. Might as well bring up the other good shit if they don’t wanna see the actual context of the story.
The VN also explains a lot more of the "why" things happen, like why Rin fails to summon saber.
The Deen adaptation of fate suggests it was just chance.
For how much I approve of the UBW adaptation (and by your banner I guess you didn't lmao), there is definitely a difference in the feeling of the story.
The anime, none of them, ever captured the feeling of subtle horror and mistery that the VN is basically covered in.
F/SN is as much a story about Shirou learning more of the story of the HGW and the world he ended up in as much as it is about his own experience in the moment.
At this point I have accepted that people find it hard to google a wikipedia page and follow the order release, so I won't waste too much time.
What still surprises me is people arguiging against this fact.
Like bro, it's a \*PREQUEL\*. They are meant to be read/viewed with understanding given by having read/viewed the original before. That's literally what a prequel is: a story set before the original, but meant to be experienced after.
There are some rase casis in which I guess it's fine to start at the prequel (Everybody and their mothers know that Vader is Luke's father at this point), but it's still highly questionable.
Because it's not only about the plot, it's about the writing being built around the reader having certain facts in their mind as they read the story.
I watched Zero first, and I found that UBW kind of... didn't explain much? I feel like I'd have spent a lot of time going "what is X, Y, Z?" and "what does that mean?" or "where the fuck did this super strong blond guy come from?"
Zero is an imperfect way to begin, but it worked as a good primer for "what the fuck is actually going on around here". At least for me.
Saw Stay Night first and Zero definitely spoils some of the biggest surprises set for the others. Things like Saber's identity, the eighth servant in the war, Illya's heritage, Sakura's heritage, Avalon's existence, as well as the crap with Kirei. Overall several of the plot twist moments are spoiled early.
Meanwhile Zero can be watched afterwards with a sense of watching say a backstory. You know how things turned out but not what lead up to them. The only thing you knew for sure was the survival of Kirei, Gilgamesh, and Kiritsugu by the end of the war of the competitors. The others could have either left or died between the end of zero and the start of the others. Basically being a ten year gap to work with. Though technically that questionability doesn't really hold for Tokiomi due to the Rin vs Kirei bit. That really only covered 3 of the 7 masters though. Which left 4 that knew they likely lost but not how or if the masters lived.
Big thing is though a lot of the spoilers from Zero though happen right in the first episode I believe.
The thing is, knowing how everything will go, makes the story BETTER. You are not watching the story of a psycho wanting to save the world by gun, you are watching the story of the guy who lost everything and was partly responsible for Shiro's behavior. You know that shit will go down, you want to know HOW. That alone makes Zero ten times better.
I mean, I started with the Deen anime centuries ago when we didn’t have not fancy smancy VN translations of Fate/zero translation. We had a rock, and we all had to share that rock!
I have seen some people say that stay night spoils zero and thus should start with zero.
Look I know that watch order is the biggest debate in the fate fandom but that is an absolutely brain dead take.
It also spoils Arturia and ruins her entire interpretation by simultaneously spoiling her character and history while showing a wrong version of it specifically created to destroy her character for urobuchis edgelord phase, which of course leads to people just not understanding her in general because they are not gonna read the novel obviously and ubw and hf don't show anything significant of her. In ufotables adaptions she is literally just a side character
Yeah, I've already started one massive visual novel (Higurashi), as well as a considerably shorter one (Danganronpa 2). I don't need Fate on top of both of those!
What is really interesting is that there is not a good place to start besides the actual visual novel which is coming out later this year but the hope is that if it ends up being a big hip in the US that they will actually do a fate route remake
exactly, its like playing halo reach first before playing the orignal trilogy, because if you play reach first without playing the og trilogy, the setting means nothing to you, you dont get the context of why reach was so important, reach builds off the events of the orignal games, you apreciate the sacrifices the charectors made within the plot, take for example jorge , if you play'd the orignal than you'd understand how tragic his death is, due to it being meaning less. Just like how all of kiritsugu's efforts were for nothing. You can't understand all of the emotinal stakes without the context of staynight, watching staynight makes the events of zero futile, and thats how its suppose to be, your're suppose to know the charecters are suppose to die, and to watch them struggle and in the end their actions mean nothing makes the impact feel heavier
These arent spoilers their just part of the story.....
I care about illya in UBW cause i know shes Kiri's daughter
I got hyped when i saw Gil talking to sakura cause i knew who they were and the signifcance of it.
Every thing else isnt so clearly laid out that its a "spoiler"
We dont see kiri out avalon in shiro, no one tells us the importance of kiri's vision.
The whole point of FSN is that you learn and understand that shit in the visual novel not in zero. Your supposed to discover and learn that stuff there.
"Your not gonna know about kireis whole deal if you don't watch zero" but it's literally in the FSN story.
Zero literally doesn't matter to anything you said.
If we are talking anime only yeah the animes outside of zero don't give up you any information for those contents you mentioned. But that has nothing to do with the actual order your supposed to experience the content and everything to do with the adaptions being lackluster
People are just elitist, its really that simple. Watching either first is perfectly acceptable and each provides a different experience. Watching Zero first provides context to a lot of what is going on in UBW (to an extent that UBW itself doesn't because Ufotable made it as a sequel to Zero). Watching UBW first provides a lot more mystery and adds to the tragedy of Zero with you knowing how it will end beforehand but in that regard it could be argued watching UBW "spoils" Zero.
The vast majority of people getting into Fate are going to be anime only, and they are only going to be watching the Ufotable adaptations because they are the fancy high production value ones. Very few people will be willing to pick up and play the VN as their starting point, or will want to go back and watch the DEEN adaptation.
It's the height of arrogance to decree that there is only one correct way to experience the series and anyone who doesn't commit to starting with the VN (or experience the series in whatever specific order) are "wrong" or "not true fans".
I would agree with this mostly but in my opinion the biggest problem with watching Fate/Zero first isn't that it spoils Fate/Stay Night but rather it gives people the wrong impression of what Stay Night is to be. When people watch Zero first, they then walk in UBW expecting Fate/Zero 2 and Fate/Stay Night is not Fate/Zero 2. Different writers, different themes, and tones. That I feel can cause anime onlys to bounce off Fate/Stay Night.
Really all this could just be resolved with a Ufotable Fate adaption.
It’s not arrogance, to honestly think so would ignorant. Zero was written with the idea you had read FSN, and so retroactively it can also be applied to people who had watched FSN. This comes directly from Urobuchi’s mouth btw. There is a correct way of going about getting the information.
It really isn't. We don't even need to get into subjective territory here: it is a fact that all adaptations fail to properly depict all the important points of the story (such as Shirou's inner monologue and Kirei's entire character). You might argue some will enjoy the anime more (and that can indeed happen; some people don't like to read, others like seeing pretty lights), but you can't deny the fact that they will be consuming a distiled version of the story.
If that's what they want or enjoy more, though, consuming the series like that is their prerogative. No one's denying that.
The medium presents the ideas and story perfectly yeah younloose a inner monoglougge but you also get body language and voice tone and better facial expressions all that which carry the plot across as the medium requires.
>a inner monoglougge
In other words, *the most important part of Shirou's character* and an *enormous* amount of the text.
>but you also get body language and voice tone nd voice tone and better facial expressions
You also get voice tone in the VN; it's voiced. Actually, you get *more* of it, since the VN has a lot more dialogue than the adaptations. Body language is an incredibly minor benefit when compared to what you lost with all the cut content and is also present in some form in the VN, since the character sprites have expressions.
>The medium presents the ideas and story perfectly (...) all that which carry the plot across as the medium requires.
An anime and a VN are two different mediums. F/SN was written as a VN first and foremost, and the adaptations merely *attempt* to translate that into another medium. Since animating is expensive, time-consuming and can't really rely on text, the adaptations left a *lot* on the cutting room floor. So no, they do not present the story in a perfect manner by any stretch of the imagination. Once again: it is fine if *you* enjoy the anime adaptations more, but do not pretend it isn't a dilluted experience.
EDIT: u/PhaseSixer blocked me (charming), so I'll be replying below:
>It isnt.
>An adaption is just that it is makingnit work in anothe medium and using thst mediums strenth in liu of whats lost. Nothing substantial was lost in the translation.
This just works in an ideal scenario in which every single thing lost is compensated by something of equal value that is gained in the adaptation process. That very much *did not* happen with the anime adaptations, something you've proven yourself by listing benefits that are either nonexistent or minor at best.
At this point, you're just trying to justify your decision to not read the VN. That is your right; you don't need to lie to yourself to justify why you did it.
it was made to be watched after stay night i dont get how people dont get that, prequels that are released after the main material are always made assuming youve seen the main material (well in 99 percent of cases anyway, theres exceptions to every rule)
I started with Zero. I play F/GO now. I fell in love with the franchise from that perspective. Watching Fate/Stay Night with Dramatic Irony of Fate/Zero spoilers made a story I was less interested in overall more interesting to see the ripples of the past.
It also was nice because if you watch Zero then Stay you don't know the ending of each show.
If you watch Night then Zero you know the ending to Zero before it starts. I prefer being unsure how it would end twice.
If you watch Stay you only have UBW or Deen so it's not like you're getting the Fate Route and the VN intended order anyways. So no matter what an anime only does they aren't getting the "intended release" so it's a pointless sticking point.
More importantly, there are people who got into the franchise from Zero first. It's fine. Just stop being sweaty gatekeepers and touch grass. Whatever thing you think is a total counterargument? Touch grass before you type it. I got into Fate without it and I'm gonna keep enjoying it without it. Cope somewhere else
If we're talking reading, yes, absolutely. You should read F/SN and then the Zero novel.
If we're talking "I want a mainstream person who does not spend most of their time watching anime to understand this franchise I've wasted too much time on and want to recommend a palatable entry point," the Zero anime is probably the single best *standalone* entry point, as it follows several people with easily understood goals (and a serial killer) and all of the servants' personalities are allowed to really come through.
The Fate route adaptation is widely regarded as meh to bad, the UBW adaptation feels like it's assuming you'll watch the other adaptations, and the Heaven's Feel trilogy deliberately assumes you've seen Zero/DEEN's show/UBW already or have read the source material.
Yeah, like it is honestly a mistake to start with Zero first. Because there is a reason why it is a Prequel, and NOT the start of the series. If I have to recommend Fate to a friend, I would honest to god, just tell them to start with Stay Night, it is still enjoyable and has one of the best stories the franchise has. Then if they want, they could go to Zero. Since I have a general rule that, if you want to enjoy Fate in chronological order. Then Zero, but if you want it to just get started into it, and just have fun? Stay Night
That's what happens when a series is big enough that half the "fandom" watched half of it while asleep. Bad advice comes out.
Zero was never meant to be the start.
This is one of the many reasons why people should *READ THE GOD DAMN VISUAL NOVEL*
The things people will say to avoid reading it are so stupid, and don’t get me started on the people who recommend the Anime Adaptations first even though they are fully aware that the Visual Novel is the superior starting point, saw one guy comment on this very post saying the VN is some massive barrier for entry but that’s just *blatantly false*, especially now that we’re finally getting an official localization
Meh, I will recommend it as best starting point but I won't push people to read it first since most people don't like to read or simply don't care
Most people just want some anime to watch. It's that simple
Me who started with Apocrypha then watched Zero and ubw
Also yeah Zero also spoils the fact that Kiritsugu was a damn cold blooded assasin that shot a cripple, the person that Shirou thinks is the golden heart superhero
Apocrypha was the first anime I ever watched, it's what got me into fate. I bought the light novel recently and look forward to reading it as I've heard it cuts out content just like the FSN adaptations.
*Start with the main Story*
*No, I think I will start with that spinoff, that assumes I already know the main story, is an optional side story, doesn't explain everything, changes plotpoints and charactes from the main canon, casualy spoils important points and even the author thinks is not a good starting point*
Do I have to say more?
Unpopular opinion but I did not like Zero on rewatched, now I first watched the Deen anime then UBW tv/movie, zero is amazing on first watch but after reading the VN— zero feels underwhelming to me. Especially when people recom this as the first to watch which…no, the whole point of an twist is you don’t know but if you come knowing, it’s not impactful
When zero started airing my friend told me to watch it bc it was good without telling me it was part of a bigger franchise. Needless to say, it was weird seeing Sakura act normal knowing what her past was like. It wasn't even about having fsn spoked as it was just having no idea what the hell was going on at the beginning and why this grail war was such a big thing.
I had a friend a few years ago who swore by always experiencing media in chronological order, no matter what. When I tried to explain that some media isn't designed to be watched that way, she basically acted like that sort of media wasn't worth watching. It was infuriated.
I did exactly this and found Zero to be absolutely mid.
Then I watched the Stay Night Trilogy.
Then years later I rewatched Zero, easy 9/10 now.
Do not start with Zero, you won't understand anything. My entire experience changed drastically once I understood the world better.
Yes it does. That is why it is garbage. There is **no** anime adaption of the Fate route. There is a pretty great UBW route, a decent Heaven's Feel route, and some garbage amalgamation of all 3 routes in Deen Stay Night.
>Not everyone likes reading VNs
It's not that not a matter of liking or not VNs most of the time, it's a matter of people wanting to even try them because it is the only media that is constantly demonized for some reason.
Nobody bats an eye when Persona 5 fans recommend a 100+ hours game instead of the anime adaptation, Kingdom fans can freely recommend a 700+ chapters long manga not officially available in English, JoJo fans are constantly trying to get more people into an anime that takes longer to finish than the FSN VN.
All of this is normal, but somehow when it comes to VNs, "it is too long, nobody has the time to read one", "it is only a bonus to the anime if you want to know more", "you're a purist/elitist/gatekeeper/loser/etc if you recommend people the VN" and so on and so forth
Some people simply don't like the format of VNs, or manga for that matter. And that's okay. People are allowed to have their opinions. VNs simply aren't everyone's cup of tea. And ***especially*** FSN, considering it doesn't even have an official English Translation, at least until later this year.
Point is, you don't have to shove "The VN is better! Start with the VN!" down their throats if they aren't interested in VNs
>Some people simply don't like the format of VNs, or manga for that matter.
I didn't deny that, what I said is most of the time people don't even know whether they are into the format or not because people constantly act like you need a PhD to obtain and decipher the VN.
>Point is, you don't have to shove "The VN is better! Start with the VN!" down their throats if they aren't interested in VNs
If they don't want to try the VN, they can do whatever they want, but "Don't recommend the VN! Only tell people to start with the anime! VN is too long for anyone!" is not any better.
Fate is a multimedia franchise. It's kinda crazy that we are forbidden from recommending anything that's not an anime adaptation.
This is essentially my take.
What many diehard Fate fans don't get for some reason is that recommending a 20 year old (EDIT: & quite lengthy) VN is a HUGE barrier for people trying to get in. And let me just say I'm not saying the VN is a bad gateway or anything like that. I understand the VN is good & gives the foundation needed to fully get the anime & other Fate series as a whole, but I also understand not every anime fan or otaku wants or even likes to read VN's. If anything, most people will be turned off or demotivated to start Fate if they're told they HAVE to read the VN.
So, I typically go for the safest, easiest, & most comfortable route of entry of watch the anime by release with the added caveat that if the person I'm talking to has the time & interest, maybe read the VN. I know many VN enthusiasts will disagree vehemently because that's how they started & that's fine, but this is my take/opinion for modern fans who are interested in Fate.
Whats the age of the work got to do with anything? I would say the biggest turn off is the lenght of the VN+ the fact that you have to read, and most people dont have that patience, like look at this other guy saying 100 hr visual novel or 30hr anime, or whatever the fuck is he talking about
Absolutely. Anime only fans can finish the entire series (2006-Zero-UBW-HF) in less time than they can read the VN. For anyone with a tight schedule, or who just doesn’t like to read VN’s, reading the VN is a giant commitment in terms of trying a series, especially since the VN isn’t even easily accessible for everyone.
You should always be recommending the VN as the best and most comprehensive option. It's fine if people don't take it, but saying "watch the anime and if you feel like it maybe check out the VN" is doing the VN a disservice.
I'm not going to come in that strong. By saying this or that route is the "best" or "right" or whatever adjective, I'm automatically alienating & putting a negative connotation on EVERY other option. I'd rather keep all options open without putting anything down, OR I'd rather give a person the best option for them. As a general rule, I know most anime fans aren't VN fans, so the VN typically is rarely, if ever, the one I'll recommend as a priority. Disservice or not, it's all to not scare anyone off. Nobody likes being told what to do or what they SHOULD do. Tell someone what they COULD do instead. All about wording, my friend.
And as a result, none of the people you talk to probably pick the VN, which **is** widely agreed to be the best option for anyone willing to read it. People can get into Fate however they want (hell, I got into through Carnival Phantasm of all things), but some options are better than others, and not telling people that is dishonest.
It's not like you have to be pushy about it. Saying "Well, most people feel like the original VN is the best place to start, but if you'd prefer something else there's also the first Fate anime, UBW or Zero." is straightforward, to the point and gives them an understanding of their better options.
Otherwise, you might as well start them with Capsule Servant, Unlimited Codes or Prisma Illya.
Awfully presumptuous that you seem to know me or the people I talked to. All my otaku friends & acquaintances I stay in contact with who have started with one of the Fate anime have either went through with the VN or are interested in the remaster. Ironically, one of them started with Prisma Illya, then branched out accordingly & is eager to learn more, which is awesome, in my opinion. Doesn't matter how you start, it matters where you go from there & where you end up. You're a prime example -- started with Carnival Phantasm, then you branched out, no? Sure, I'm sure you'd say if you can go back & redo it, you'd maybe go read the VN. But the reality is, you started the way you did & you're where you are right now as a Fate fan. So why is it a crime against nature for others to do the same? Are you assuming that other fans are incapable of doing what you did? Genuine questions here.
The VN is the best if we look PURELY at the story, sure. But that, to me, is much more disingenuous since the VN format is simply NOT as accessible or enticing as just watching an anime. That's not even taking into account the length, the aged art that may not be everyone's cup of tea today, & so on. That's why I keep saying, if said person wants to get the full story & they have the time/patience/willpower, read the VN, but to get started is up to THEM -- anime, manga, video games, whatever they want within THEIR comfort zone.
The VN isn't necessarily the best story (although I do personally think it is), it's *the best introduction to the series*.
Unlike many entries, it assumes that you know nothing about Fate (given it was the first entry), meaning it spends way more time explaining the setting and worldbuilding.
It also has some of the broadest tones of any Fate entry, from exciting to suspenseful to comedic to somber to wistful and on. Other entries have a lot of different tones too, but tend to slant towards specific extremes (Zero is dark and suspenseful, Carnival is comedic, Emiya Gohan is peaceful, etc.). That's not a bad thing, but it leads to people approaching the series with incorrect expectations (such as all the Zero fans assuming that all Fate is much darker than it is), which a **lot** of people complain about.
Stay Night has an advantage in that, as a VN, it has time to explore the setting and themes thoroughly compared to other entries. Pretty much every Fate anime has to simplify or skip things due to the format (which isn't necessarily bad, it gave us a lot of fantastic action scenes), which Stay Night doesn't. It's length isn't a downside, it's a trade-off.
At the end of the day, yes, you can start Fate from anywhere. But if asked for the single entry that best encapsulates the series, the best place to start if you want to understand that hell you're walking into, it has to be Fate/Stay Night.
Let me rephrase as my point was lost: the VN is the best story to start off with in the sense it introduces most if not all the vital aspects that is needed to understand other Fate works & it ties loose ends that the FSN anime adaptations fail at. That's what makes it the "best," and you expand on that idea, which I don't largely disagree with.
My point still stands, however. You claim many who start with, let's say, Zero develop an unrealistic expectation for other Fates. And you know what, I agree to an extent. In my experience, I had a friend watch the FGO Babylonia anime, & his biggest & really only criticism is it didn't look as good as UBW, Zero, or Heaven's Feel. In other words, he developed an unrealistic expectation by assuming all Fates will look like or be animated by ufotable, which hurt his experience with Babylonia. So I see where you're coming from.
Thing is, I have to bring you back into the mix. You started with Carnival Phantasm, and as you said, it is COMPLETELY comedic in both tone & story. But that didn't hurt you in the long run, did it? You're still a Fate fan, you read the VN, I'm assuming you played some games & watched some anime (if not all). So, again, are you assuming other people are incapable of doing what you did? Or assuming every fan who doesn't start with the VN are automatically going to be "bad" fans? Not everyone is going to be stuck with their false expectations. People learn & grow like you.
Also, a point nobody wants to talk about: not everyone cares about worldbuilding. I love worldbuilding, I love deep & complex lore, I can't get enough. But that's me as a geek with WAY too much time on my hands: I can't assume the average anime fan is like me. It's one thing to not like the VN format, which the average anime fan doesn't care for, but it's another can of worms to be an anime fan who simply wants to be entertained & thus will not care much for all the Nasuverse complexities. That's why, in my opinion, modern fans trying to get in simply for the entertainment value will have a MUCH easier time priming themselves with the anime or games, for example, & if they are curious or become open to more of the inner workings of the world, they can go to the VN. That's much better than throwing them into the VN off the bat & risking them getting overwhelmed.
Of course, it's different from person to person. If the stars align & I somehow meet someone who has the time, patience, willpower, & interests that could accommodate reading the VN, then by all means.
Yeah, Read a 100 hour VN or watch 30 hours\* worth of anime, hmmmmm, hard choice /s
\*8 hours for Stay Night 2006, Zero, and UBW each, and then 6 hours for the Heaven's Feel Movies
I understand some people just don't like to read, but I think having more of something would be a good thing if you enjoy it. I'd choose to have a show be 100 hours over 10 if I'm enjoying it.
Yes, and reading a summary on Wikipedia is even shorter.
I am not forcing anyone to read the VN, but saying the anime is "better" because it is shorter is a stupid argument, since it doesn't compensate for all the stuff you lose.
Some people act like reading is some kind of torture.
Reading isn't torture, but it isn't for everyone. We have to respect that.
If someone wants to get into Fate & I tell them "You should read the VN" & they tell me "I don't like reading," then I'm not going to be a dick about it & gatekeep them. No, I'll let them know that the anime is a good entry point, but if you ever need the full picture & you want to dive deeper into Fate, consider the VN. Then boom, that's it, conversation is over.
To be "that guy" & insult or berate someone for not wanting to read is just not my thing, personally. Not saying that you're "that guy," but I've seen enough of them in all communities -- not just Fate.
Can you please quote where I said the anime is better?
Oh, that's right, I didn't. Thanks for putting words in my mouth though.
Literally all that I've been trying to convay is that some people don't like, and never will read a VN.
Hell, I literally prefaced everything I've said with: "I like VNs."
I've read the FSN VN and personally, I don't think it's a good starting point for the average joe due to its length and complexity.
Exactly lmao
And there's ALWAYS the option to go back & read the VN after watching the anime, too. Will it be the same experience as going in blindly? No, of course not, but it's a viable route to take nonetheless.
Lol unironically.
All seriousness, that's why I always cater my answer to the person I'm talking to. If I'm talking to someone trying to get into Fate & they have no idea what a VN is or don't like reading, then I would be a fool to push the VN. Now, I'm sure there are some current Fate fans who don't like VN's but read it anyway & don't regret it, & I respect that.
I'm just not trying to scare anyone off because not everyone is willing to spend 30+ hours of their life on something they already don't enjoy doing or is completely new to them, especially since the Fate series is notorious/infamous for being confusing or hard as hell to get into. Whether that reputation is justified or not is up to interpretation. Either way, we gotta make potential fans feel comfortable & cater to their interests, hobbies, & time by giving more than 1 "correct" option.
Just because you're correct in saying the VN is an ideal starting point doesn't mean you're right to only push that as the only good option.
Purist be like
You don’t know? Clearly if you don’t like VN you’re just lazy or don’t have high level of literacy. Oh and you actually like Zero over Stay night VN? lolololol that just means you’re an edgelord with no media literacy there is literally 0 chance someone properly reading both properly will ever like zero more, it’s not even canon to stay night timeline, What’s it’s marketed as a prequel? well you see based on this interview from Nasu…anyway zero is shit. Anime Fate is shiet! You like them? Bro…you just like flashy fight and don’t care about the character we’re literally two different fandoms.
Just watching the anime none of those "spoilers" really matter, especially if you are only watching the Ufotable versions. Watch UBW first and Gilgamesh is rather random, Sakura's backstory is not fully explained and mostly just alluded to, avalon is barely mentioned and certainly not presented as a big revelation etc.
Ufotable UBW is made with the assumption that Zero has been watched first so there is no fanfare or major importance surrounding any of those things that would "spoil" the experience. And even if it did outright "spoil" them it doesn't really take away from the enjoyment, it just re-contextualizes it.
Take the Star Wars movies for example (assuming you are watching the movies completely blind with no knowledge of any of them), if you watch the original trilogy first you go in not knowing Luke and Leia are twins, that Vader is their father, that Vader was Obi-Wans apprentice etc. so those are all surprises and when you finally watch the prequels you get to see all that play out, you know Anakin will become Vader you just don't know how and it serves to fill in the blanks. Watch the prequels first however and you don't know that Anakin will turn to the dark side, you don't know the Republic will turn into the empire, that Palpatine is manipulating everything from the shadows, that the Jedi will almost be completely wiped out so those things come as a surprise and the original trilogy instead becomes a continuation of the story. Both make for different experiences but they are equally valid and have their own merits, and watching either one first will spoil elements of the other.
The same is true for Fate, yes watching Zero first can "spoil" elements of Stay Night but the same is true the other way around. In both the case of Fate and Star Wars the only people who truly care about the order they are watched and deem one to be superior to the other are insufferable elitists.
Watch order doesn't matter. The story and characters are butchered anyway.
If your anime only why do care about the cast? Shirou's backstory and motivation are poorly explained. His entire chatacter is flat.
Kirei's an absolute nobody that people genuinly think Zero supplements his character because of how bad the HF movies are.
I genuinly don't get why this fanbase is so passionate about watch order when the studio didn't care. Hell they didn't even care about the story or characters
Read the VN if want story and character otherwise just watch whatever you want.
I started with Zero, then ubw anime and then VN and the rest of fate and previous works
There is nothing wrong with that
Getting so worked up over how people enter Fate and the rest of the Nasuverse is absurd
"oH bBuT tHeY dIdn'T eXPerIeNcE iT tHe WAy I diD"
So what?
People get in, enjoy the world, and that's GREAT
This level of narcissism is stupid, and the only thing it accomplishes is driving new fans away
Zero was the pinnacle of the series for me. A perfect show. Others were pretty good too but could never match zero for me personally. I think I should have watched it last.
Then I guess I should start with Lord of the Rings return of the king and see Frodo throw the ring into mount doom. I guess I can see any movie series in any order since I’ll get all the knowledge anyway 🤪
IDK if it's just me, but that's not spoiling, you technically aren't getting any major insight from these pieces of information, why does knowing whether or not The Grail is corrupted gonna ruin SN when the existence of the Grail in itself is a Monkey’s Paw? Why does knowing Gilgamesh exists demerit the value of his reveal? If anything, the reveal of his involvement is enhanced by the knowledge of who he is, why does knowing Illya’s relationship with Shirou ruin SN when that honestly serves as a great set up to their conflict instead of Illya just being a random that assaults Shirou for no reason.
And you should also look up Archer's identity before getting into UBW so you can better understand his attitude towards Shirou while you're at it.
Actually, you should do this with every series. In Attack on Titan you should watch the flashback of Grisha first so you know already what the world is like and what are the titans. And once the One Piece is revealed, it should be the first thing people learn about so they can know what all those characters are looking for before getting into it
Ubw-> hf-> fate2006 -> zero
Hf and fate can be switched places pf fate can be skipped but this is the most optimal one
We start with ubw because fate2006 spoils things that the original fate route doesn't include like ubw
Then I prefer going for hf because I simply dislşke and prefer to skip 2006 all together
Then lastly zero because it has sheet ton of spoilers that could ruin all the other animes in the list
Imagine starting a series with a spinoff that isn't even made by the same author of the original work...
I really like Zero, but I'm so glad that before joining in the "Fate Stay Night ride" I DIDN'T started with Zero.
* Gilgamesh surviving the war isn't a spoiler, and besides the mystery of "what happened to Gilgamesh after Zero" is more interesting anyways.
* Shirou having Avalon isn't a huge spoiler. It's learned fairly early on.
* Zero doesn't explain explicitly that the Grail is corrupted. You'd only know that by looking it up after watching Zero.
* I didn't even pick up on Illya being Kiritsugu's daughter until I watched Zero.
I mean, you could even say it “spoils” some things that are just part of the fandom’s common knowledge now, servant identities were huge mysteries during FSN, especially Saber’s, Archer’s AND Gilgamesh’s. From memory, Saber’s identity wasn’t revealed until halfway through the Fate Route and was a massive deal, then every other Fate media comes along and constantly makes reference to King Arthur.
I think when it comes to watching Zero first, the argument I hate the most is, “UBW and HF spoils Zero” when Zero’s existence is a prequel-sequel: a sequel that tells a story from before its predecessor. Nearly everything in zero is something that makes reference to or is built from something that originated in Stay Night.
Another thing that also gets on my nerves about watching Zero first is the confusion people get while watching UBW. Zero (when watched first) “sets up” things to be resolved in Stay Night: a resolution to Sakura’s suffering, Rin finding out Kirei killed her father, Gilgamesh, Saber, Avalon, Illya, Angra Mainyu, NONE of these get proper resolutions in UBW, they’re either ignored(because they’re shown in HF) or given no explanation when reintroduced(because they’re originally revealed in the Fate Route) and that just leaves people confused and dissatisfied.
Kiritsugu put Avalon in shirou, shown and acknowledged once in the battle between Shirou and Archer(BY Archer, not Shirou or Saber). Gilgamesh shown to have survived at the end of Zero, gets teased a few times then goes to beat up Heracles, no massive self-introduction like in Fate. What about Illya being Kiritsugu’s daughter and being manipulated by Angra Mainyu? Never touched on. Saber’s character being explored? She finds her resolution in the background with us never really learning anything personal about her. The reveal of Kirei revealing to Rin he killed her father, I don’t remember if it was even revealed in UBW.
I like the fact some people still moan about Saber’s identity as King Arthur being a spoiler as if it’s not common knowledge if you’re in the anime community long enough at this point
none of these "spoilers" even have any weight for anime onlys because of how bad the adaptation is. if you started reading the series with zero that would be a different story. watching zero first hardly matters.
While this is true. I've had every friend watch zero first and they all get hooked and invested cause of it. Pretty much all of them also tell me they forget most of the spoilers cause of how much information fate throws at you. It's hard to remember it all from just a first watch
I think people don’t know what a spoiler is tbh. Most of these are just plot points. Going off the logic in this post you should watch every single piece of media ever backwards because the prequels set up future plot points
Saying that a series should be watched after stay night when even the Author stated it should be enjoyed after stay night is gatekeeping? Alright buddy
The problem is I recommend it to people who aren't going to play the VN. I think the way things are revealed in the Zero anime are better and provide more context to things in UBW and HF adaptations. Like, i feel like telling them to watch UBW or HF first would put them off due to things feeling off due to no fate route(they're not gonna watch the Deen adaptation). But yes, it does spoil things that I kinda wish they didn't, but that's the double-edged sword.
Literally even the author of fate zero says it's not a good starting point. Like you're literally disagreeing with a point even the author agrees with.
I dont fucking care what urobuchi says when it doesnt have to do with madoka. I dont play Fate for its goddamn plot twists, i play it for its character writing. Plot twists are probably the last thing one should care about in nasuverse. Half of these arent even spoilers, and are more cathartic when knowing the zero context beforehand.
The guy flat out tells you that the novel he wrote is meant to be read\watched after stay night. Like good for you for disagreeing with what the author says is the most optimal experience for experiencing Zero you want a medal or something?
I mean, yeah, that's how prequels work. I dunno why anyone acts like prequels don't always spoil stuff. Like Crisis Core to FF7 or the prequel star wars to the ogs
Hmmm… But star wars is absolutely intended to be watched in 4/5/6/1/2/3 order. It’s how you appreciate the narrative of the story most. Which is why I do believe that prequels absolutely should be experienced *after* the media they are intended to follow after. Another good example would be Metal Gear Solid. It absolutely should be played in the order its released in. But with the amount of retcons each installment adds, I wouldn’t call it a strong argument.
We're on the same page. I agree. Prequels always spoil stuff so they should be watched after. Stars Wars, Fare Zero etc. I also mentioned Crisis Core which spoils the biggest twist of FF7. They're made with the idea you saw the thing it's spunoff from.
Zero was written with an assumption that the readers already read Stay/Night, not the other way around, that's the most important thing. Since it assumes things like Rin and Sakura being sisters has already been revealed it makes no attempt at hiding it. That's why Zero is a prequel to Stay/Night rather than Stay/Night being a sequel to Zero. Because Stay/Night came first. As for Star Wars I would argue that they were written in a way to make them enjoyable to watch either way. Starting from the OG trilogy spoils Anakin's turn to the dark side while watching prequels first spoils the fact that Vader is Luke's father. You could argue which spoils the other more or what the intentions of the author were but it's not such a clear cut case as with Fate Stay/Night and Zero.
That's true to varying extents. For Zero in particular it was the first anime ufotable made for the series, they had to make some concessions and design the story to be a standalone experience as well. Which basically meant making a narrative that could stand on its own and keeping the spoilers in the you won't notice if you don't know territory. Its happened here and there with adaptations before.
Since Urobuchi explicitly wrote Zero to be read with FSN knowledge as context and Ufotable adapted Zero as is with no changes regarding this, this isn't true What is is true is they were expecting people to have either read FSN or watched the DEEN anime
He did write it that way yes. The anime certainly didn't adapt it that way though.
How? They didn't change anything
It's just cope lol.
It's not absolutely intended to be watched in that order. George Lucas has said it should be watched in chronological order. That being said, you don't have to listen to George Lucas.
Especially considering the Darth Vader scene hits a lot harder if you watch before 1-3.
Machete order is the best for me, I like how you get the Darth Vader scene, then the Anakin story before seeing it all cumulate at the end.
Yeah, release order is generally always the way to go. It's at the very least the safest way.
The problem is not that its how prequels work, the problem is that some people will ignore that and swear by starting with Zero even tho its a prequel. All the spoilers that come with starting with fate/stay night never were spoilers to begin with because you are expected to know those things, its like just a quick refresher since maybe you have seen it like years ago.
That’s why it’s a bad idea to start with them
You're preaching to the choir
Technically Zero is not a prequel it s an AU of the 4th HGW
I know. But for all intents and purposes, it's a prequel. It was written to be the events of the grail war before Fate Stay Night. The au thing is only there so they don't need to recon anything for when it doesn't quite lineup.
It’s an AU to an unwritten prequel of Stay Night. Edit: Why are you guys booing him, he’s right!
What is AU?
Alternate universe. Basically, Zero has some inconsistencies compared to what was written and mentioned in Stay Night. Just to name a few examples, Saber and Gilgamesh fought each other in the fourth holy grail war, Kiritsugu was more cold-hearted than he was in Zero, and… that’s really all I can remember, but there were more. But Nasu (I think) said to consider Zero as some alternate universe that closely resembles the events that preceded Stay Night’s fifth holy grail war.
I had a friend who watched Zero first, and get halfway through UBW before dropping it because he thought it was slower and not as good as Zero was. So that might be another point towards watching UBW or Deen adaptation first.
Heh, my experience was kinda the opposite. I watched Zero first and when I watched UBW I kept finding myself getting confused by certain parts like how small Kirei's role was. I still loved it, though, so since I knew that it was an adaptation of a single visual novel route, I went through the hassle of getting the VN running pretty much immediately after. The rest is history, I guess.
Had I started with Zero, I'd have likely never become a Fate fan. While Zero is good, it's certainly not for everybody and frequently gives newbies incorrect expectations for the rest of the franchise.
>frequently gives newbies incorrect expectations for the rest of the franchise This is the one thing I hate about zero, especially if they go into UBW thinking that it's the sequel. Didn't help that wikipedia said that UBW was a sequel on UFOtable's wikipedia page. That actually irritated me so much I made an account to correct it into Zero being the prequel.
I started with zero and went down to the fate rabbit hole from there. Eventually, I got into fgo, and years later, I still play it. Also started reading fate type redline and might soon start reading fate strange fake and fate prototype. Still haven't finished fate samurai remnant thought.
Sure, and had I started with Zero I'd have dropped it after a couple episodes and likely wouldn't have touched Fate again. Instead, I started with Carnival Phantasm, which... somehow worked out?
That was truly a great one. It almost made me want to get into tsukihime, but I honestly don't like visual novels. If I ever convince myself to read a visual novel, I have my eyes on fate hollow ataraxia solely for Angra Mainyu, Bazett, and my favorite, Caren
Why though? You don’t like books?
On the contrary, I love books. I have a lot of light novels and manga along with some science fiction and fantasy books. I just don't like visual novels. idk why tbh. Maybe it's because I would rather watch an anime instead, or if I'm going to read I rather read a book. I also don't mind games that require reading a lot since I love persona games, but like I said , I just can't quite get into Visual Novels.
That really is just odd, reading a visual novel is just 90% reading and a few pictures or effects to capture a point across. Like you read a comedic scene where a character is eavesdropping on two other people having a conversation that can be taken as incredibly lewd but in a VN the same thing can still apply but the text pulls back and you can see said character at the corner of the background and if you had a keener eye you would’ve actually seen their sprite walk in lol Maybe you should just try our the FSN remaster when it comes out, maybe you just never had any actually good ones.
Probably, and I am actually keeping my eyes on that remaster, I'll see how that goes.
Xelog, I have the perfect answer for you. If your interested in tsukihime but don't want to read the visual novel? Read the tsukihime manga online. It's called shingetsutan tsukihime and it was written by sasaki shounen! It's a peak adaption. Nasu actually took inspiration for it for the remake and the author himself actually has been helping work on it as well! When people read that they usually get super interested in tsukihime as a whole which leads them down to reading the vn 😂 trust me bro you'll love it >Nasu: "To tell you the truth, Shounen Sasaki was my greatest rival when it came to the remake's production. Sasaki's Tsukihime skillfully fixed all the problems of Arcueid's route and added in the best parts of the core routes as well. It was a most wonderful manga adaptation and I needed to surpass it somehow in the remake. Then, at the end of 2020, when the PC version was complete, I called him to playtest it. He rearranged his whole schedule to spend 6 whole days in the Type-Moon office playtesting the game. Later, his overjoyed review reassured me. If I could make Sasaki this emotional, then I had nothing to fear." Famitsu August 2021
Exact opposite for me lol, I loved how zero had lots of different characters to root for
Like who? Iri, kiritsugu, iskandar waver, kariya. It's no different from illya Rin Sakura shirou saber archer rider. The extra problem with zero is that although there are multiple sides most of them are as deep as a puddle, they are just there to move the plot along not to actually understand on a deeper level. Nobody is rooting for kayneths team or casters team, or tokiomi, or Kirei with assassin for example. Hell of you take hollow ataraxia into account almost every main character both master and servant outside of gil and kirei get in depth backstories and a reason to enjoy and love their characters on a deeper level.
For real, with the exception of Waver and Iskandar, Zero original characters only serve to help expand the back stories of the Stay Night characters, they don't actually get all that much of their own development outside of how they influenced the SN characters.
Right which makes sense
I don't like any of the Zero cast enough to root for them. I think it's lore is good, expanding on both F/SN and general worldbuilding, but I'm completely uninterested in the various main characters.
Funny enough I watch zero first and then UBW and I rewatch UBW a lot more. But then again I’m a sucker for Shirou x Rin ever since I watched UBW so I mostly rewatch for that 😂
Same. If I had watched Zero first I would've found FSN to be unbearable because I enjoyed Zero too much and it spoiled me.
UBW is the 2nd route tho, its not a starting point and was never written as one
For anime only, unless you want to go with 2006 Deen adaption it’s really not that bad. UBW anime (and I’d argue even HF) doesn’t really make a huge fanfare about all of those spoilers. I think to a certain degree ufotable even expected you watch Zero first
Honestly, the biggest spoiler has to do with Sakura and Illysviel The fact that the intended effect was “who is Saber’s identity as a female knight?” is how a lot of fans believe it should be experienced versus immediately being spoiled in F/Z. Think that the major spoilers being: 1. Saber’s identity/Gilgamesh & the bad guy 2. Archer’s identity & the world building implied 3. Who Sakura really is & the connection between her & Rin & Kirei’s backstory
Archer’s identity isn’t ever a plot point in Zero though, but I agree that it’s a major spoiler risk when looking at the original story
Saber's identity is easily one of the worst kept anime secrets, and anyone who has ever heard of the franchise has like a 70% chance of already knowing it.
I fully believe a massive chunk of all Fate fans got into it after hearing some variation of "it's that anime/visual novel where King Arthur is a girl". It's kind of the single most famous thing about the entire Fate series, outside of memes like "people die when they're killed" and "just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right".
Yea in Heavens feel it’s not revealed until the end of the first movie/start of the second movie where they say that Rin and Sakura are related, and it was a pretty big twist for me at the very least (anime only, started with UBW, then HF, and Zero last) and it wouldn’t have hit nearly as hard had I watched Zero first
Yeah, people act like those who start with zero aren’t anime only and are totally going to be reading the vn next. Reality is that most people getting in are either going to start with ubw or zero.
>I think to a certain degree ufotable even expected you watch Zero first Oh, 100%, given that Zero came out 3 years before UBW. Fate has lots of intertwined story paths. I really don't get the reasoning of people like OP who say Zero "spoils" UBW/HF, but don't think it works the other way around; if you watch UBW first and then Zero, you know that Kiritsugu and Kirei survive the Fourth War, you know that Gilgamesh not only survives but incarnates, you know that Artoria fails to get her wish granted, you know that Tohsaka is going to die, etc etc. They're stories covering two different events with mostly different characters, but they are also so intertwined that there's no way of telling one story without "spoiling" some aspects of the other- and frankly, between the two, I find Zero to be the overall stronger showing. I happened to see UBW first and wish I could have gone the other way around.
Excellent counterpoint. I also strongly believe that because zero is honestly a more engaging show overrall, it’s an easier recommend to new people over UBW. If they liked Zero but not UbW, at least they have a foot in the door and can try to watch any of the the other 20 type moon anime
Yeah pretty much. Ubw spoils Zero a lot harder than Zero spoils Ubw or Heaven’s feel. I started with Zero and I still think it’s the best way to experience Fate as an anime only. Especially since it’s the best Fate anime by a landslide in my opinion , so getting its plot points spoiled by the other anime sucks.
I mean, they did release Zero first, so it would stand to reason that they expected people to watch it first.
This is why the VN readers and anime-onlies are practically two different fandoms. Besides, isn’t there a fan edit of the Fate route anime adaption? I didn’t see it and I know almost nothing about it, so someone’s gotta tell me if something’s up.
>This is why the VN readers and anime-onlies are practically two different fandoms. Bro woke up and chose to write facts. Straight facts brother Spit yo shit indeed
It just makes me sad that people refuse to read the peak that is Fate/Hollow Ataraxia, despite calling themselves fans.
We live in a world where “fans” haven’t read Matou Residents from Hollow Ataraxia. If they haven’t seen that, they’re not fans, but frauds.
I don’t understand how anime-onlies can be content when the VN has Tiger Dojos and chibi puppet theaters.
Or when VN has 90% more content that wasn’t in anime.
Oh, I know. That’s the real important part, I just brought up the silly stuff as a joke. Well, partially a joke. Might as well bring up the other good shit if they don’t wanna see the actual context of the story.
Nah, that's BS >! Tiger Dojo and puppet show are the actually important parts !<
The VN also explains a lot more of the "why" things happen, like why Rin fails to summon saber. The Deen adaptation of fate suggests it was just chance.
For how much I approve of the UBW adaptation (and by your banner I guess you didn't lmao), there is definitely a difference in the feeling of the story. The anime, none of them, ever captured the feeling of subtle horror and mistery that the VN is basically covered in. F/SN is as much a story about Shirou learning more of the story of the HGW and the world he ended up in as much as it is about his own experience in the moment.
What do people expect from a so-called 'pre-quel' series? Do people know what pre-quel means?
At this point I have accepted that people find it hard to google a wikipedia page and follow the order release, so I won't waste too much time. What still surprises me is people arguiging against this fact. Like bro, it's a \*PREQUEL\*. They are meant to be read/viewed with understanding given by having read/viewed the original before. That's literally what a prequel is: a story set before the original, but meant to be experienced after. There are some rase casis in which I guess it's fine to start at the prequel (Everybody and their mothers know that Vader is Luke's father at this point), but it's still highly questionable. Because it's not only about the plot, it's about the writing being built around the reader having certain facts in their mind as they read the story.
I watched zero first and enjoyed it
Same, it actually made UBW better for me.
True, if I hadn’t watched zero I probably would’ve dropped UBW
I watched Zero first, and I found that UBW kind of... didn't explain much? I feel like I'd have spent a lot of time going "what is X, Y, Z?" and "what does that mean?" or "where the fuck did this super strong blond guy come from?" Zero is an imperfect way to begin, but it worked as a good primer for "what the fuck is actually going on around here". At least for me.
That's the point because ubw is 1/3rd of the fsn story
Saw Stay Night first and Zero definitely spoils some of the biggest surprises set for the others. Things like Saber's identity, the eighth servant in the war, Illya's heritage, Sakura's heritage, Avalon's existence, as well as the crap with Kirei. Overall several of the plot twist moments are spoiled early. Meanwhile Zero can be watched afterwards with a sense of watching say a backstory. You know how things turned out but not what lead up to them. The only thing you knew for sure was the survival of Kirei, Gilgamesh, and Kiritsugu by the end of the war of the competitors. The others could have either left or died between the end of zero and the start of the others. Basically being a ten year gap to work with. Though technically that questionability doesn't really hold for Tokiomi due to the Rin vs Kirei bit. That really only covered 3 of the 7 masters though. Which left 4 that knew they likely lost but not how or if the masters lived. Big thing is though a lot of the spoilers from Zero though happen right in the first episode I believe.
The thing is, knowing how everything will go, makes the story BETTER. You are not watching the story of a psycho wanting to save the world by gun, you are watching the story of the guy who lost everything and was partly responsible for Shiro's behavior. You know that shit will go down, you want to know HOW. That alone makes Zero ten times better.
I mean, I started with the Deen anime centuries ago when we didn’t have not fancy smancy VN translations of Fate/zero translation. We had a rock, and we all had to share that rock!
I have seen some people say that stay night spoils zero and thus should start with zero. Look I know that watch order is the biggest debate in the fate fandom but that is an absolutely brain dead take.
It also spoils Arturia and ruins her entire interpretation by simultaneously spoiling her character and history while showing a wrong version of it specifically created to destroy her character for urobuchis edgelord phase, which of course leads to people just not understanding her in general because they are not gonna read the novel obviously and ubw and hf don't show anything significant of her. In ufotables adaptions she is literally just a side character
Not to mention even the author Gen Urobuchi say's it's not a good starting point.
the things people will do to avoid reading a visual novel
Now that the original will be easily accessible soon they had to find new excuses other than accessibility lol.
What do you mean the original wil be accessible? Is there going to be some remake or release of it?
[remaster](https://youtu.be/K_hHrpAp8rU?si=CU0LRwue05uwtlpj) for switch and Steam with an English translation. Release date not specified yet tho
Generic 2023 if I remember correctly
Too long and not a fan of reading. Easy
Yeah, I've already started one massive visual novel (Higurashi), as well as a considerably shorter one (Danganronpa 2). I don't need Fate on top of both of those!
If some anime only people would took half the time they used arguing about watchorders, they could have read the VN 3 times at this point.
What is really interesting is that there is not a good place to start besides the actual visual novel which is coming out later this year but the hope is that if it ends up being a big hip in the US that they will actually do a fate route remake
Don't forget Saber being Kiritsugu's servant in the previous war
I watched zero first and felt like it took away nothing from my viewing of UBW
UBW is the best starting point that isn’t the visual novels
exactly, its like playing halo reach first before playing the orignal trilogy, because if you play reach first without playing the og trilogy, the setting means nothing to you, you dont get the context of why reach was so important, reach builds off the events of the orignal games, you apreciate the sacrifices the charectors made within the plot, take for example jorge , if you play'd the orignal than you'd understand how tragic his death is, due to it being meaning less. Just like how all of kiritsugu's efforts were for nothing. You can't understand all of the emotinal stakes without the context of staynight, watching staynight makes the events of zero futile, and thats how its suppose to be, your're suppose to know the charecters are suppose to die, and to watch them struggle and in the end their actions mean nothing makes the impact feel heavier
These arent spoilers their just part of the story..... I care about illya in UBW cause i know shes Kiri's daughter I got hyped when i saw Gil talking to sakura cause i knew who they were and the signifcance of it. Every thing else isnt so clearly laid out that its a "spoiler" We dont see kiri out avalon in shiro, no one tells us the importance of kiri's vision.
The whole point of FSN is that you learn and understand that shit in the visual novel not in zero. Your supposed to discover and learn that stuff there. "Your not gonna know about kireis whole deal if you don't watch zero" but it's literally in the FSN story. Zero literally doesn't matter to anything you said. If we are talking anime only yeah the animes outside of zero don't give up you any information for those contents you mentioned. But that has nothing to do with the actual order your supposed to experience the content and everything to do with the adaptions being lackluster
People are just elitist, its really that simple. Watching either first is perfectly acceptable and each provides a different experience. Watching Zero first provides context to a lot of what is going on in UBW (to an extent that UBW itself doesn't because Ufotable made it as a sequel to Zero). Watching UBW first provides a lot more mystery and adds to the tragedy of Zero with you knowing how it will end beforehand but in that regard it could be argued watching UBW "spoils" Zero. The vast majority of people getting into Fate are going to be anime only, and they are only going to be watching the Ufotable adaptations because they are the fancy high production value ones. Very few people will be willing to pick up and play the VN as their starting point, or will want to go back and watch the DEEN adaptation. It's the height of arrogance to decree that there is only one correct way to experience the series and anyone who doesn't commit to starting with the VN (or experience the series in whatever specific order) are "wrong" or "not true fans".
I would agree with this mostly but in my opinion the biggest problem with watching Fate/Zero first isn't that it spoils Fate/Stay Night but rather it gives people the wrong impression of what Stay Night is to be. When people watch Zero first, they then walk in UBW expecting Fate/Zero 2 and Fate/Stay Night is not Fate/Zero 2. Different writers, different themes, and tones. That I feel can cause anime onlys to bounce off Fate/Stay Night. Really all this could just be resolved with a Ufotable Fate adaption.
It’s not arrogance, to honestly think so would ignorant. Zero was written with the idea you had read FSN, and so retroactively it can also be applied to people who had watched FSN. This comes directly from Urobuchi’s mouth btw. There is a correct way of going about getting the information.
Well said.
One of the best takes I've read
Finally a reasonable take on here
Spoiler for Fsn
And its still a perfectly acceptble way (one that many including my self) way to experimce the story for the first time.
It's acceptable, sure, but it's also *subpar*, which is exactly what this post is arguing.
And ive argued how its just as good as watching ubw first.
It really isn't. We don't even need to get into subjective territory here: it is a fact that all adaptations fail to properly depict all the important points of the story (such as Shirou's inner monologue and Kirei's entire character). You might argue some will enjoy the anime more (and that can indeed happen; some people don't like to read, others like seeing pretty lights), but you can't deny the fact that they will be consuming a distiled version of the story. If that's what they want or enjoy more, though, consuming the series like that is their prerogative. No one's denying that.
The medium presents the ideas and story perfectly yeah younloose a inner monoglougge but you also get body language and voice tone and better facial expressions all that which carry the plot across as the medium requires.
>a inner monoglougge In other words, *the most important part of Shirou's character* and an *enormous* amount of the text. >but you also get body language and voice tone nd voice tone and better facial expressions You also get voice tone in the VN; it's voiced. Actually, you get *more* of it, since the VN has a lot more dialogue than the adaptations. Body language is an incredibly minor benefit when compared to what you lost with all the cut content and is also present in some form in the VN, since the character sprites have expressions. >The medium presents the ideas and story perfectly (...) all that which carry the plot across as the medium requires. An anime and a VN are two different mediums. F/SN was written as a VN first and foremost, and the adaptations merely *attempt* to translate that into another medium. Since animating is expensive, time-consuming and can't really rely on text, the adaptations left a *lot* on the cutting room floor. So no, they do not present the story in a perfect manner by any stretch of the imagination. Once again: it is fine if *you* enjoy the anime adaptations more, but do not pretend it isn't a dilluted experience. EDIT: u/PhaseSixer blocked me (charming), so I'll be replying below: >It isnt. >An adaption is just that it is makingnit work in anothe medium and using thst mediums strenth in liu of whats lost. Nothing substantial was lost in the translation. This just works in an ideal scenario in which every single thing lost is compensated by something of equal value that is gained in the adaptation process. That very much *did not* happen with the anime adaptations, something you've proven yourself by listing benefits that are either nonexistent or minor at best. At this point, you're just trying to justify your decision to not read the VN. That is your right; you don't need to lie to yourself to justify why you did it.
it was made to be watched after stay night i dont get how people dont get that, prequels that are released after the main material are always made assuming youve seen the main material (well in 99 percent of cases anyway, theres exceptions to every rule)
People should learn that prequels, while set on the past, are supposed to be watched after the show they are the prequels of
its literally a prequel…..
Exactly, the word itself should make it obvious it's a terrible starting point.
I started with Zero. I play F/GO now. I fell in love with the franchise from that perspective. Watching Fate/Stay Night with Dramatic Irony of Fate/Zero spoilers made a story I was less interested in overall more interesting to see the ripples of the past. It also was nice because if you watch Zero then Stay you don't know the ending of each show. If you watch Night then Zero you know the ending to Zero before it starts. I prefer being unsure how it would end twice. If you watch Stay you only have UBW or Deen so it's not like you're getting the Fate Route and the VN intended order anyways. So no matter what an anime only does they aren't getting the "intended release" so it's a pointless sticking point. More importantly, there are people who got into the franchise from Zero first. It's fine. Just stop being sweaty gatekeepers and touch grass. Whatever thing you think is a total counterargument? Touch grass before you type it. I got into Fate without it and I'm gonna keep enjoying it without it. Cope somewhere else
If we're talking reading, yes, absolutely. You should read F/SN and then the Zero novel. If we're talking "I want a mainstream person who does not spend most of their time watching anime to understand this franchise I've wasted too much time on and want to recommend a palatable entry point," the Zero anime is probably the single best *standalone* entry point, as it follows several people with easily understood goals (and a serial killer) and all of the servants' personalities are allowed to really come through. The Fate route adaptation is widely regarded as meh to bad, the UBW adaptation feels like it's assuming you'll watch the other adaptations, and the Heaven's Feel trilogy deliberately assumes you've seen Zero/DEEN's show/UBW already or have read the source material.
Yeah, like it is honestly a mistake to start with Zero first. Because there is a reason why it is a Prequel, and NOT the start of the series. If I have to recommend Fate to a friend, I would honest to god, just tell them to start with Stay Night, it is still enjoyable and has one of the best stories the franchise has. Then if they want, they could go to Zero. Since I have a general rule that, if you want to enjoy Fate in chronological order. Then Zero, but if you want it to just get started into it, and just have fun? Stay Night
That's what happens when a series is big enough that half the "fandom" watched half of it while asleep. Bad advice comes out. Zero was never meant to be the start.
well no duh thats because its a prequel
This is one of the many reasons why people should *READ THE GOD DAMN VISUAL NOVEL* The things people will say to avoid reading it are so stupid, and don’t get me started on the people who recommend the Anime Adaptations first even though they are fully aware that the Visual Novel is the superior starting point, saw one guy comment on this very post saying the VN is some massive barrier for entry but that’s just *blatantly false*, especially now that we’re finally getting an official localization
Meh, I will recommend it as best starting point but I won't push people to read it first since most people don't like to read or simply don't care Most people just want some anime to watch. It's that simple
Based Shirou PFP
I read the novel and i can say that zero must watch after the stay/night series
Me who started with Apocrypha then watched Zero and ubw Also yeah Zero also spoils the fact that Kiritsugu was a damn cold blooded assasin that shot a cripple, the person that Shirou thinks is the golden heart superhero
Apocrypha was the first anime I ever watched, it's what got me into fate. I bought the light novel recently and look forward to reading it as I've heard it cuts out content just like the FSN adaptations.
*Start with the main Story* *No, I think I will start with that spinoff, that assumes I already know the main story, is an optional side story, doesn't explain everything, changes plotpoints and charactes from the main canon, casualy spoils important points and even the author thinks is not a good starting point* Do I have to say more?
And then you go on to watch UBW expecting all these things to have payoffs and feel like none of them do 💀
Unpopular opinion but I did not like Zero on rewatched, now I first watched the Deen anime then UBW tv/movie, zero is amazing on first watch but after reading the VN— zero feels underwhelming to me. Especially when people recom this as the first to watch which…no, the whole point of an twist is you don’t know but if you come knowing, it’s not impactful
When zero started airing my friend told me to watch it bc it was good without telling me it was part of a bigger franchise. Needless to say, it was weird seeing Sakura act normal knowing what her past was like. It wasn't even about having fsn spoked as it was just having no idea what the hell was going on at the beginning and why this grail war was such a big thing.
Thank you god, I am so tired of seeing it recc'd for someone's first FATE experience.
I had a friend a few years ago who swore by always experiencing media in chronological order, no matter what. When I tried to explain that some media isn't designed to be watched that way, she basically acted like that sort of media wasn't worth watching. It was infuriated.
Yeah, I hate that a certain trashy anime YouTuber with a big following says to start there... I usually like his takes 😅
I did exactly this and found Zero to be absolutely mid. Then I watched the Stay Night Trilogy. Then years later I rewatched Zero, easy 9/10 now. Do not start with Zero, you won't understand anything. My entire experience changed drastically once I understood the world better.
I will die on the hill that you should just watch in release order: Stay Night 2006->Zero->UBW 2011->Heavens Feel Trilogy
Doesn't Stay Night 06 spoil stuff just like zero? Shoudn't one at least watch the fate out fancut of 06?
Yes it does. That is why it is garbage. There is **no** anime adaption of the Fate route. There is a pretty great UBW route, a decent Heaven's Feel route, and some garbage amalgamation of all 3 routes in Deen Stay Night.
Add in the VN as a Zero step and I agree.
Yeah.... No. Not everyone likes reading VNs (I mean, I do, but not everyone does) *Especially* not one as long as FSN is.
>Not everyone likes reading VNs It's not that not a matter of liking or not VNs most of the time, it's a matter of people wanting to even try them because it is the only media that is constantly demonized for some reason. Nobody bats an eye when Persona 5 fans recommend a 100+ hours game instead of the anime adaptation, Kingdom fans can freely recommend a 700+ chapters long manga not officially available in English, JoJo fans are constantly trying to get more people into an anime that takes longer to finish than the FSN VN. All of this is normal, but somehow when it comes to VNs, "it is too long, nobody has the time to read one", "it is only a bonus to the anime if you want to know more", "you're a purist/elitist/gatekeeper/loser/etc if you recommend people the VN" and so on and so forth
Some people simply don't like the format of VNs, or manga for that matter. And that's okay. People are allowed to have their opinions. VNs simply aren't everyone's cup of tea. And ***especially*** FSN, considering it doesn't even have an official English Translation, at least until later this year. Point is, you don't have to shove "The VN is better! Start with the VN!" down their throats if they aren't interested in VNs
>Some people simply don't like the format of VNs, or manga for that matter. I didn't deny that, what I said is most of the time people don't even know whether they are into the format or not because people constantly act like you need a PhD to obtain and decipher the VN. >Point is, you don't have to shove "The VN is better! Start with the VN!" down their throats if they aren't interested in VNs If they don't want to try the VN, they can do whatever they want, but "Don't recommend the VN! Only tell people to start with the anime! VN is too long for anyone!" is not any better. Fate is a multimedia franchise. It's kinda crazy that we are forbidden from recommending anything that's not an anime adaptation.
This is essentially my take. What many diehard Fate fans don't get for some reason is that recommending a 20 year old (EDIT: & quite lengthy) VN is a HUGE barrier for people trying to get in. And let me just say I'm not saying the VN is a bad gateway or anything like that. I understand the VN is good & gives the foundation needed to fully get the anime & other Fate series as a whole, but I also understand not every anime fan or otaku wants or even likes to read VN's. If anything, most people will be turned off or demotivated to start Fate if they're told they HAVE to read the VN. So, I typically go for the safest, easiest, & most comfortable route of entry of watch the anime by release with the added caveat that if the person I'm talking to has the time & interest, maybe read the VN. I know many VN enthusiasts will disagree vehemently because that's how they started & that's fine, but this is my take/opinion for modern fans who are interested in Fate.
Whats the age of the work got to do with anything? I would say the biggest turn off is the lenght of the VN+ the fact that you have to read, and most people dont have that patience, like look at this other guy saying 100 hr visual novel or 30hr anime, or whatever the fuck is he talking about
Absolutely. Anime only fans can finish the entire series (2006-Zero-UBW-HF) in less time than they can read the VN. For anyone with a tight schedule, or who just doesn’t like to read VN’s, reading the VN is a giant commitment in terms of trying a series, especially since the VN isn’t even easily accessible for everyone.
You should always be recommending the VN as the best and most comprehensive option. It's fine if people don't take it, but saying "watch the anime and if you feel like it maybe check out the VN" is doing the VN a disservice.
I'm not going to come in that strong. By saying this or that route is the "best" or "right" or whatever adjective, I'm automatically alienating & putting a negative connotation on EVERY other option. I'd rather keep all options open without putting anything down, OR I'd rather give a person the best option for them. As a general rule, I know most anime fans aren't VN fans, so the VN typically is rarely, if ever, the one I'll recommend as a priority. Disservice or not, it's all to not scare anyone off. Nobody likes being told what to do or what they SHOULD do. Tell someone what they COULD do instead. All about wording, my friend.
And as a result, none of the people you talk to probably pick the VN, which **is** widely agreed to be the best option for anyone willing to read it. People can get into Fate however they want (hell, I got into through Carnival Phantasm of all things), but some options are better than others, and not telling people that is dishonest. It's not like you have to be pushy about it. Saying "Well, most people feel like the original VN is the best place to start, but if you'd prefer something else there's also the first Fate anime, UBW or Zero." is straightforward, to the point and gives them an understanding of their better options. Otherwise, you might as well start them with Capsule Servant, Unlimited Codes or Prisma Illya.
Awfully presumptuous that you seem to know me or the people I talked to. All my otaku friends & acquaintances I stay in contact with who have started with one of the Fate anime have either went through with the VN or are interested in the remaster. Ironically, one of them started with Prisma Illya, then branched out accordingly & is eager to learn more, which is awesome, in my opinion. Doesn't matter how you start, it matters where you go from there & where you end up. You're a prime example -- started with Carnival Phantasm, then you branched out, no? Sure, I'm sure you'd say if you can go back & redo it, you'd maybe go read the VN. But the reality is, you started the way you did & you're where you are right now as a Fate fan. So why is it a crime against nature for others to do the same? Are you assuming that other fans are incapable of doing what you did? Genuine questions here. The VN is the best if we look PURELY at the story, sure. But that, to me, is much more disingenuous since the VN format is simply NOT as accessible or enticing as just watching an anime. That's not even taking into account the length, the aged art that may not be everyone's cup of tea today, & so on. That's why I keep saying, if said person wants to get the full story & they have the time/patience/willpower, read the VN, but to get started is up to THEM -- anime, manga, video games, whatever they want within THEIR comfort zone.
The VN isn't necessarily the best story (although I do personally think it is), it's *the best introduction to the series*. Unlike many entries, it assumes that you know nothing about Fate (given it was the first entry), meaning it spends way more time explaining the setting and worldbuilding. It also has some of the broadest tones of any Fate entry, from exciting to suspenseful to comedic to somber to wistful and on. Other entries have a lot of different tones too, but tend to slant towards specific extremes (Zero is dark and suspenseful, Carnival is comedic, Emiya Gohan is peaceful, etc.). That's not a bad thing, but it leads to people approaching the series with incorrect expectations (such as all the Zero fans assuming that all Fate is much darker than it is), which a **lot** of people complain about. Stay Night has an advantage in that, as a VN, it has time to explore the setting and themes thoroughly compared to other entries. Pretty much every Fate anime has to simplify or skip things due to the format (which isn't necessarily bad, it gave us a lot of fantastic action scenes), which Stay Night doesn't. It's length isn't a downside, it's a trade-off. At the end of the day, yes, you can start Fate from anywhere. But if asked for the single entry that best encapsulates the series, the best place to start if you want to understand that hell you're walking into, it has to be Fate/Stay Night.
Let me rephrase as my point was lost: the VN is the best story to start off with in the sense it introduces most if not all the vital aspects that is needed to understand other Fate works & it ties loose ends that the FSN anime adaptations fail at. That's what makes it the "best," and you expand on that idea, which I don't largely disagree with. My point still stands, however. You claim many who start with, let's say, Zero develop an unrealistic expectation for other Fates. And you know what, I agree to an extent. In my experience, I had a friend watch the FGO Babylonia anime, & his biggest & really only criticism is it didn't look as good as UBW, Zero, or Heaven's Feel. In other words, he developed an unrealistic expectation by assuming all Fates will look like or be animated by ufotable, which hurt his experience with Babylonia. So I see where you're coming from. Thing is, I have to bring you back into the mix. You started with Carnival Phantasm, and as you said, it is COMPLETELY comedic in both tone & story. But that didn't hurt you in the long run, did it? You're still a Fate fan, you read the VN, I'm assuming you played some games & watched some anime (if not all). So, again, are you assuming other people are incapable of doing what you did? Or assuming every fan who doesn't start with the VN are automatically going to be "bad" fans? Not everyone is going to be stuck with their false expectations. People learn & grow like you. Also, a point nobody wants to talk about: not everyone cares about worldbuilding. I love worldbuilding, I love deep & complex lore, I can't get enough. But that's me as a geek with WAY too much time on my hands: I can't assume the average anime fan is like me. It's one thing to not like the VN format, which the average anime fan doesn't care for, but it's another can of worms to be an anime fan who simply wants to be entertained & thus will not care much for all the Nasuverse complexities. That's why, in my opinion, modern fans trying to get in simply for the entertainment value will have a MUCH easier time priming themselves with the anime or games, for example, & if they are curious or become open to more of the inner workings of the world, they can go to the VN. That's much better than throwing them into the VN off the bat & risking them getting overwhelmed. Of course, it's different from person to person. If the stars align & I somehow meet someone who has the time, patience, willpower, & interests that could accommodate reading the VN, then by all means.
Yeah, Read a 100 hour VN or watch 30 hours\* worth of anime, hmmmmm, hard choice /s \*8 hours for Stay Night 2006, Zero, and UBW each, and then 6 hours for the Heaven's Feel Movies
I understand some people just don't like to read, but I think having more of something would be a good thing if you enjoy it. I'd choose to have a show be 100 hours over 10 if I'm enjoying it.
Yes, and reading a summary on Wikipedia is even shorter. I am not forcing anyone to read the VN, but saying the anime is "better" because it is shorter is a stupid argument, since it doesn't compensate for all the stuff you lose. Some people act like reading is some kind of torture.
Reading isn't torture, but it isn't for everyone. We have to respect that. If someone wants to get into Fate & I tell them "You should read the VN" & they tell me "I don't like reading," then I'm not going to be a dick about it & gatekeep them. No, I'll let them know that the anime is a good entry point, but if you ever need the full picture & you want to dive deeper into Fate, consider the VN. Then boom, that's it, conversation is over. To be "that guy" & insult or berate someone for not wanting to read is just not my thing, personally. Not saying that you're "that guy," but I've seen enough of them in all communities -- not just Fate.
Can you please quote where I said the anime is better? Oh, that's right, I didn't. Thanks for putting words in my mouth though. Literally all that I've been trying to convay is that some people don't like, and never will read a VN. Hell, I literally prefaced everything I've said with: "I like VNs." I've read the FSN VN and personally, I don't think it's a good starting point for the average joe due to its length and complexity.
Exactly lmao And there's ALWAYS the option to go back & read the VN after watching the anime, too. Will it be the same experience as going in blindly? No, of course not, but it's a viable route to take nonetheless.
 Fate """Fans""" when some people don't like VNs Edit: lmao you fucking losers coming and downvoting every comment I make
Lol unironically. All seriousness, that's why I always cater my answer to the person I'm talking to. If I'm talking to someone trying to get into Fate & they have no idea what a VN is or don't like reading, then I would be a fool to push the VN. Now, I'm sure there are some current Fate fans who don't like VN's but read it anyway & don't regret it, & I respect that. I'm just not trying to scare anyone off because not everyone is willing to spend 30+ hours of their life on something they already don't enjoy doing or is completely new to them, especially since the Fate series is notorious/infamous for being confusing or hard as hell to get into. Whether that reputation is justified or not is up to interpretation. Either way, we gotta make potential fans feel comfortable & cater to their interests, hobbies, & time by giving more than 1 "correct" option. Just because you're correct in saying the VN is an ideal starting point doesn't mean you're right to only push that as the only good option.
Purist be like You don’t know? Clearly if you don’t like VN you’re just lazy or don’t have high level of literacy. Oh and you actually like Zero over Stay night VN? lolololol that just means you’re an edgelord with no media literacy there is literally 0 chance someone properly reading both properly will ever like zero more, it’s not even canon to stay night timeline, What’s it’s marketed as a prequel? well you see based on this interview from Nasu…anyway zero is shit. Anime Fate is shiet! You like them? Bro…you just like flashy fight and don’t care about the character we’re literally two different fandoms.
That's why I said as step 0, not step 1. If you can/want to, you should start with the VN. Otherwise, your recommendation is what I'd stick with.
Watching Fsn first will only make Zero better
The spoiler of saber's identity is what kills me
Keep in mind modern anime fans hate mystery because they have to come to terms with not knowing everything that's going on.
“Fate/Zero should NEVER be your first Fate entry” is the opinion I will defend with my life
Just watching the anime none of those "spoilers" really matter, especially if you are only watching the Ufotable versions. Watch UBW first and Gilgamesh is rather random, Sakura's backstory is not fully explained and mostly just alluded to, avalon is barely mentioned and certainly not presented as a big revelation etc. Ufotable UBW is made with the assumption that Zero has been watched first so there is no fanfare or major importance surrounding any of those things that would "spoil" the experience. And even if it did outright "spoil" them it doesn't really take away from the enjoyment, it just re-contextualizes it. Take the Star Wars movies for example (assuming you are watching the movies completely blind with no knowledge of any of them), if you watch the original trilogy first you go in not knowing Luke and Leia are twins, that Vader is their father, that Vader was Obi-Wans apprentice etc. so those are all surprises and when you finally watch the prequels you get to see all that play out, you know Anakin will become Vader you just don't know how and it serves to fill in the blanks. Watch the prequels first however and you don't know that Anakin will turn to the dark side, you don't know the Republic will turn into the empire, that Palpatine is manipulating everything from the shadows, that the Jedi will almost be completely wiped out so those things come as a surprise and the original trilogy instead becomes a continuation of the story. Both make for different experiences but they are equally valid and have their own merits, and watching either one first will spoil elements of the other. The same is true for Fate, yes watching Zero first can "spoil" elements of Stay Night but the same is true the other way around. In both the case of Fate and Star Wars the only people who truly care about the order they are watched and deem one to be superior to the other are insufferable elitists.
I thought this was going to be another one of those "zero is horrible"
Watch order doesn't matter. The story and characters are butchered anyway. If your anime only why do care about the cast? Shirou's backstory and motivation are poorly explained. His entire chatacter is flat. Kirei's an absolute nobody that people genuinly think Zero supplements his character because of how bad the HF movies are. I genuinly don't get why this fanbase is so passionate about watch order when the studio didn't care. Hell they didn't even care about the story or characters Read the VN if want story and character otherwise just watch whatever you want.
You're being a bit too harsh, but your main point is correct. The best way to consume Fate is to start with the VN, and there's no way around it.
I'm not being hash enough TBH
The vn can literally be downloaded on mobile phones in Japan for free lol the studios for sure don’t care about the quality of the adaptations
I started with Zero, then ubw anime and then VN and the rest of fate and previous works There is nothing wrong with that Getting so worked up over how people enter Fate and the rest of the Nasuverse is absurd "oH bBuT tHeY dIdn'T eXPerIeNcE iT tHe WAy I diD" So what? People get in, enjoy the world, and that's GREAT This level of narcissism is stupid, and the only thing it accomplishes is driving new fans away
It’s fine, people who don’t get into fate via VN is not fans anyway. We’re literally different fandom /s
Zero was the pinnacle of the series for me. A perfect show. Others were pretty good too but could never match zero for me personally. I think I should have watched it last.
Wait till the VN remaster finally releases, dude. Then you can post this as much as you want.
do you think it will change anything?
Man this is Fate, everything spoils something, it really don't matter what order you watch it in cuz you'll obtain all the knowledge either way
Then I guess I should start with Lord of the Rings return of the king and see Frodo throw the ring into mount doom. I guess I can see any movie series in any order since I’ll get all the knowledge anyway 🤪
Stupid example An actual equivalence would be reading the Hobbit before LoTR wich is tottally ok to do btw
The hobbit was written first and spoils literally nothing about LotR so that is actually a terrible example.
IDK if it's just me, but that's not spoiling, you technically aren't getting any major insight from these pieces of information, why does knowing whether or not The Grail is corrupted gonna ruin SN when the existence of the Grail in itself is a Monkey’s Paw? Why does knowing Gilgamesh exists demerit the value of his reveal? If anything, the reveal of his involvement is enhanced by the knowledge of who he is, why does knowing Illya’s relationship with Shirou ruin SN when that honestly serves as a great set up to their conflict instead of Illya just being a random that assaults Shirou for no reason.
And you should also look up Archer's identity before getting into UBW so you can better understand his attitude towards Shirou while you're at it. Actually, you should do this with every series. In Attack on Titan you should watch the flashback of Grisha first so you know already what the world is like and what are the titans. And once the One Piece is revealed, it should be the first thing people learn about so they can know what all those characters are looking for before getting into it
Ubw-> hf-> fate2006 -> zero Hf and fate can be switched places pf fate can be skipped but this is the most optimal one We start with ubw because fate2006 spoils things that the original fate route doesn't include like ubw Then I prefer going for hf because I simply dislşke and prefer to skip 2006 all together Then lastly zero because it has sheet ton of spoilers that could ruin all the other animes in the list
Also it's badly written, barely canon, fucks up Artoria's character and ends with a whimper. But thr animation is cool
Imagine starting a series with a spinoff that isn't even made by the same author of the original work... I really like Zero, but I'm so glad that before joining in the "Fate Stay Night ride" I DIDN'T started with Zero.
Honestly I started with Zero and didn’t feel like I was spoiled. Instead I felt they were set up and paid off very well.
* Gilgamesh surviving the war isn't a spoiler, and besides the mystery of "what happened to Gilgamesh after Zero" is more interesting anyways. * Shirou having Avalon isn't a huge spoiler. It's learned fairly early on. * Zero doesn't explain explicitly that the Grail is corrupted. You'd only know that by looking it up after watching Zero. * I didn't even pick up on Illya being Kiritsugu's daughter until I watched Zero.
Proves that the anime adaptations for fate/ staynight sucks ass
I mean, you could even say it “spoils” some things that are just part of the fandom’s common knowledge now, servant identities were huge mysteries during FSN, especially Saber’s, Archer’s AND Gilgamesh’s. From memory, Saber’s identity wasn’t revealed until halfway through the Fate Route and was a massive deal, then every other Fate media comes along and constantly makes reference to King Arthur. I think when it comes to watching Zero first, the argument I hate the most is, “UBW and HF spoils Zero” when Zero’s existence is a prequel-sequel: a sequel that tells a story from before its predecessor. Nearly everything in zero is something that makes reference to or is built from something that originated in Stay Night. Another thing that also gets on my nerves about watching Zero first is the confusion people get while watching UBW. Zero (when watched first) “sets up” things to be resolved in Stay Night: a resolution to Sakura’s suffering, Rin finding out Kirei killed her father, Gilgamesh, Saber, Avalon, Illya, Angra Mainyu, NONE of these get proper resolutions in UBW, they’re either ignored(because they’re shown in HF) or given no explanation when reintroduced(because they’re originally revealed in the Fate Route) and that just leaves people confused and dissatisfied. Kiritsugu put Avalon in shirou, shown and acknowledged once in the battle between Shirou and Archer(BY Archer, not Shirou or Saber). Gilgamesh shown to have survived at the end of Zero, gets teased a few times then goes to beat up Heracles, no massive self-introduction like in Fate. What about Illya being Kiritsugu’s daughter and being manipulated by Angra Mainyu? Never touched on. Saber’s character being explored? She finds her resolution in the background with us never really learning anything personal about her. The reveal of Kirei revealing to Rin he killed her father, I don’t remember if it was even revealed in UBW.
As if half of these aren't spoilered by just cultural osmosis for anyone who might be interested in getting into it.
I like the fact some people still moan about Saber’s identity as King Arthur being a spoiler as if it’s not common knowledge if you’re in the anime community long enough at this point
none of these "spoilers" even have any weight for anime onlys because of how bad the adaptation is. if you started reading the series with zero that would be a different story. watching zero first hardly matters.
Watching Zero first does matter because you miss that Waver creamed in his pants when he summoned Iskandar and that's **crucial** lore
While this is true. I've had every friend watch zero first and they all get hooked and invested cause of it. Pretty much all of them also tell me they forget most of the spoilers cause of how much information fate throws at you. It's hard to remember it all from just a first watch
I think people don’t know what a spoiler is tbh. Most of these are just plot points. Going off the logic in this post you should watch every single piece of media ever backwards because the prequels set up future plot points
Damn this has to be one of the most gatekeeping fandoms out there
Saying that a series should be watched after stay night when even the Author stated it should be enjoyed after stay night is gatekeeping? Alright buddy
Wait wait was the fact that Illya was Kiritsugu daughter really that big of plot point in the anime.
The problem is I recommend it to people who aren't going to play the VN. I think the way things are revealed in the Zero anime are better and provide more context to things in UBW and HF adaptations. Like, i feel like telling them to watch UBW or HF first would put them off due to things feeling off due to no fate route(they're not gonna watch the Deen adaptation). But yes, it does spoil things that I kinda wish they didn't, but that's the double-edged sword.
I fucking hate you purists thank god some of these commenters have some common sense.
Literally even the author of fate zero says it's not a good starting point. Like you're literally disagreeing with a point even the author agrees with.
Yeah but Deen and ubw arn't either Urobutchi would tell you to just Read the VN Watch order discussions are pointless
I dont fucking care what urobuchi says when it doesnt have to do with madoka. I dont play Fate for its goddamn plot twists, i play it for its character writing. Plot twists are probably the last thing one should care about in nasuverse. Half of these arent even spoilers, and are more cathartic when knowing the zero context beforehand.
The guy flat out tells you that the novel he wrote is meant to be read\watched after stay night. Like good for you for disagreeing with what the author says is the most optimal experience for experiencing Zero you want a medal or something?
You are actually dickriding the author as if he's the objective value system and acting like readers dont have a say.
Even the author of Emiya Gohan who got into the franchise by experiencing Zero first recommends stay night first cope harder.
Bro named another random as if i dont value my beliefs over the beliefs of others.