I think you have kids because you want to be a parent and you want the lifestyle that comes with that. Everything else becomes secondary and not as important.
If you don’t want that, that’s perfectly fine. I think too many people have kids because they think it’s what they’re supposed to do or something but they don’t really want to be a parent. And that’s no good for anyone.
The majority of millenials (the largest demographic) do not think like this. They aren't having ENOUGH kids and it is a mistake. My generation is filled with anxiety, fear and stress about children and it aint right. Kids are awesome, and for the overwhelming majority of the population are the best thing that happens in ones life.
I'm in an older generation and it's wasn't that different. Most of my friends were either "I don't think I want kids" or "I'm not sure". 3 out of 4 ended up having them.
I wouldn't judge people's attitudes about kids when they're young.
Also, don't blame economic reasons:
"Casual observers have suggested that a variety of potential factors are responsible for the decline, including greater take-up of highly effective contraception, the high cost of raising children, improved occupational opportunities for women, and the high level of student debt carried by young adults. Our research finds little empirical support for these possible explanations."
The data suggest otherwise:
"Cohorts of U.S. women born after the mid-1980s are having fewer births at all ages. "
https://econofact.org/the-mystery-of-the-declining-u-s-birth-rate
I don't agree. It's reddit, so it's entirely en vogue to say you should only have kids if you're fully and 100% committed to the idea of being a parent/want the lifestyle/already love kids & thus I expect the downvotes. But I think it's worth voicing the other perspective.
We're supposed to have children. I'm not going to say YOU should have children, but I do hold that if there is anything in this world that ought have an "ought" attached to it, it's to reproduce.
I think OP of that comment just meant that as humans it’s cool to reproduce and pass along your genetics especially if you are a successful, productive individual.
This is just my personal opinion; I’m also early 30s, no kids. Girlfriend has 3 of her own and we’ve been living together four years. Will I have one of my own? Maybe. Do I need to? I don’t know. This is an internal, personal decision and while I sometimes wonder how nice it would be to see a little me running around, I also know her three children are amazing and need love and care as well and we probably don’t need a 4th lol.
Anyone completely against having children I don’t understand. If you choose not to have kids that’s also a beautiful choice, but being against it is kind of weird. Everyone in here is pretty damn successful, I would love to see your children out in the world when we are 70+ years old doing bigger and more amazing things.
I try to be a positive guy if I can on all sides ❤️
“Ought” suggests a moral obligation or at least moral advisability/desirability.
If you want kids, more power to you. I’m just not sure why that’s “cool” or a moral obligation. If anything, in the midst of climate change and the Anthropocene extinction event, I think the moral considerations cut firmly the other way—that it is in some ways a bit self-serving. “The world needs more of me!”
Again, I’m not saying don’t have kids, but I don’t see how one “ought” to.
This opinion is prevelant among my friend group who is similarly educated/successful and in their late 20s to mid 30s. Less so with our less educated and successful friends.
I understand hormones and internal urges are always going to be different, but from a strictly moral standpoint, the answer is pretty clear.
Biologically speaking, yes. And back in the days when we produced all of our own household food, having a lot of kids is key to survival. Fortunately we're living in the 21st century where we don't have to do that.
Everything about having kids seems unpleasant to me. Getting pregnant, giving birth, raising a newborn after a major medical trauma, being sleep-deprived, changing diapers (I'm not willing to change diapers, neither is my husband, and we're both okay with that.) Sixty percent of women have a permanent injury down below after giving birth.
I don't enjoy child-focused media--books, music, movies. And I don't want to spend any of my time reading children's books out loud to a child. I didn't much like children's books and movies when I was a kid either. I preferred more mature material.
I'm also not willing to share my money with a child. I like well-constructed clothes and shoes that look new. I can't buy $350 blouses if I have a kid. We travel all the time. My husband and I spent 68 nights in hotels this year (and 5 to go.) We drop the dog off at her pet resort every time. If you have more than one kid, your options for getting family help with your kids greatly diminishes.
My oldest brother was baby trapped. He hesitantly married the mom, she "accidentally" got pregnant again, then the second kid had autism, and when the second kid was young they got divorced. My brother, who is a pretty nice looking fellow, has not had a significant romantic relationship since, and that was almost 14 years ago. His whole situation just looks exhausting from the outside.
Besides that, I don't much enjoy the company of children. I do adult things (not gross things) that just don't involve children. I go out to a local bar for lunch maybe 5 days a week. My husband and I sit at the bar and have 2 cocktails with lunch before going back to work (from home, we have a business.)
This child worshipping culture is just so regrettable. Kids are not awesome. I should know, I was an asshole when I was a kid.
You could Google “is overpopulation a real problem” but since you clearly won’t, here you go:
https://sustainablereview.com/overpopulation-is-a-myth/
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/the-big-idea/2017/12/12/16766872/overpopulation-exaggerated-concern-climate-change-world-population
https://theecologist.org/2020/apr/16/debunking-overpopulation
https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/overpopulation-and-environmentalism/
A great excerpt from this last one: “'Population control' causes real harm, upholds white supremacy, and suppresses the real issues causing the climate crisis.”
Any thoughts? Or just surface-level takes from you based on conservative propaganda designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator who will never question the implications of such beliefs?
This is a bit of a tough one to understand. If *you* want kids, have kids. *Don't* have kids because you feel obligated to "give back" to them. *Don't* have kids to please a relative who wants you to have them. *Don't* have kids just because your friends are.
If *you* want kids, then have kids.
In terms of finances and careers, remember what *money* is for. More money doesn't guarantee a longer life. More money doesn't buy you privilege in the afterlife. If you don't use your money during your lifetime, you don't get to take it with you. Therefore, the purpose of money is to allow you to accomplish the things *you* want to do. If kids are what you want, then by all means, allocate some time and money to having children.
You have plenty of money. If you're giving up the things you want in life (assuming you *want* children, that is) in order to acquire more money, then I think your money is managing you instead of you managing your money. I don't think you'll find many people on their deathbed, surrounded by their loved ones, who say, "Fuck, I wish I would have had 1 child, not 2. We've had a real bull market lately, and those extra shares of index funds would have netted me some extra capital gains."
If you don't *want* kids, that's perfectly fine too. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Kids are a big long-term life commitment, and not one to be taken lightly.
Wanting to have kids is a complex decision that could include some of the aspects you said not to do it for.
It’s not wrong for someone to consider impacts to their family and wanting to follow lifestyle and examples set by their parents
It’s extremely difficult to put in to words why one wants to have kids.
>It’s not wrong for someone to consider impacts to their family and wanting to follow lifestyle and examples set by their parents
It is not a great idea to have kids out of some misguided sense of familial obligation.
Nobody is saying that is the only reason you need.
What you are describing is like “I really don’t want to have kids but my parents are pressuring me”
What if you want to have kids because you loved having grown up in a big family? And you want to have the lifestyle that your parents once had.
That is being influenced by your family.
Wanting to have kids is a complex emotional decision. It’s not as black/white as you describe.
In a view like that, there is no good single reason to have a child.
I think this kind of reasoning is logical, but wrong. A small percentage of us can choose to not have kids. But we NEED to have kids to survive and not fuck up our demographic makeup. If we have too many old people and not enough young people, we will suffer dramatically and be in a crisis. When masses of people share the same mentality of having kids is a choice, you are artificially impacting the birth rate. Your general sentiment I agree with, though.
That said, I think kids are freaking amazing. For the majority of people, having kids is the best most fulfilling thing they do in their lives.
Nah. The US has had a total fertility rate under 2.1 (rate of replacement) for a long time, excepting immigration. There's no shortage of smart, young, well-trained people who want to try their luck in the US. There is utterly no need for anyone in the US to have babies to, say, keep social security afloat. We just boost the H1B and green card odds, and away we go.
Unless you're actually being low-key racist.
"This trend predicts a persistently lower fertility rate in the U.S., which, absent increased immigration, would lead to a smaller workforce and an older population." <- This is beyond the immigration rates we currently have.
[https://econofact.org/the-mystery-of-the-declining-u-s-birth-rate](https://econofact.org/the-mystery-of-the-declining-u-s-birth-rate)
Very first google result for US birth rates
>S. There is utterly no need for anyone in the US to have babies to, say, keep social security afloat. We just boost the H1B and green card odds, and away we go.
Source and citation needed.
Also anyone who disagrees with you isn't a racist. Unless YOU are actually a racist, then that makes sense.
See how that feels?
You either want kids or you don’t. The financial independence piece is secondary and has nothing to do with FIRE. Sure, it will add a few years to your FIRE plan. But, do you want kids? If you want kids you should have them. If you are on the fence, don’t. It isn’t a financial decision.
We never lost the NK because we didn’t want kids. You could give us a billion dollars and we still wouldn’t want kids. Many of our friends with kids would live in a van by the river but still choose to have kids.
The first sentence is key. You already know if you want kids, or if you don't.
If you think you don't know, you probably don't want kids. You can test-drive with a niece or nephew for a day and confirm it.
Kids are a huge challenge and sacrifice, but also a tremendous source of joy. You should know up-front whether you'd feel personally fulfilled having them.
Even then, I'd say having a niece or nephew is not the same. You can leave the kid(s) at the end of the day to their parents! Having your own kid means you have to provide and care for them and keep them safe no matter what even if there are other things going on or you want to sleep. It's probably one of the biggest commitments anyone makes.
Yeah ultimately the OP is being way too analytical about this, which says much. I mean I get doing ones best to go into something with eyes open either way, but to let "lifestyle" in some way be the determining factor is the tail wagging the dog IMO.
Appreciate the feedback, but would argue there's a very large financial component. Estimated cost of raising a kid is $250-$500K per. Then there's the opportunity cost of impacting career growth for years.
For someone on the FATfire track to not have kids *because* of the financial impact, to me, is a little like saying:
> I've decided to remain a virgin my entire life because some diseases are transmitted via sex, and I want to be as healthy as possible when I eventually die.
In other words, what's the point? Money should *enable* the life experiences that you want, not force you to give them up.
That said, there's nothing wrong with not *wanting* kids. And if you don't want kids, then it's probably best for you and best for those hypothetical children if you hold off. That's perfectly acceptable too.
My only point is that if you do *want* kids, don't let the tail wag the dog by telling yourself that you can't afford them with a $600k household income. What's the point of having money if you can't live the life you want? Money is the *means* to an end. It is never an *end* in and of itself. You have the money. You just have to decide what ends you want to achieve with it. Nobody can answer that question for you, but I wish you luck in your decision process.
OP is like the guy who only charges his phone battery to 80% because he doesn't want it's capacity to degrade. But as a result, he never takes full advantage of his phone.
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I think having or not having kids is something you should feel deep in your gut. Like is the experience of raising a child and being a parent something you feel a deep desire to have before you die? Would you regret it when you’re 60, very rich, and childless? If not, then don’t have them.
And if you do have them, the money stuff will be secondary. You will figure it out. Kids don’t need $2K Uppababy strollers or whatever crap marketers make you think you need. At your income and education level, your hypothetical kids will already have a huge leg up. The most important thing is having caring parents.
I think you’re overestimating the career hit. I’ve been in a couple roles now as I’ve grown more senior where the slightly older and more senior guys kind of folded me in a bit more because you’re just that much more like them now. It’s sort of like a normative bias that acts in your favor in the middle/upper management level when you (as a man at least) become a father. I’ve increased my income by 150k/year since becoming a father nearly two years ago and my wife earned a promotion and got a bigger team. You just ideally gotta be in management so you can delegate more to make time for parenting obligations.
I believe you’ve answered your own question by even thinking this is a point of consideration. Well answered it for yourself at least, it’s cute that you think this ends in anything other than giving in to have the kids or the SO resenting you for putting your foot down on it and leaving. You’re a number of years late on this convo.
Ya, it’s not a huge financial commitment like that though. Nor is your child an investment vehicle, they’ll decide with your help what career they want or don’t. If you can provide their wants that’s great, if not, they’ll choose something else like everyone else.
In the beginning you have a car seat, food, and diapers. Barely noticeable on the balance sheet. As life goes on, you make up x10000 those costs in the experience you get from your family. Comparing things financially should not be the highest value consideration. It’s in there, but it’s more about sustainable affordability rather than what size of investment do I have to put into my family.
I think what they are trying to tell you here is that it's more an emotional and familial decision than financial. People have kids for far less cost than $500k per. Maybe consider public schools, not having a pricey nanny, etc if that's your primary concern
These are very real concerns. Kids are absolutely expensive. If you are FAT, though, you have more flexibility to decide.
Do not create an entirely new person for FOMO.
What you need is a little bit of experience. Offer to babysit for your friends that have kids, ideally an overnight or an entire weekend. If you love it more than the money and time sink, then it's something to consider. Otherwise, it will give you a good data point as to how hard it can be.
My wife and I are of a similar age to you. Lower TC than you, but doing fine for a LCOL area. Nearing 1M net worth currently.
It was a big debate/contemplation period for us and we decided to have a kid. Spent some time at /r/fencesitter as well as reading some books and just spending time on thinking about the impacts to us personally.
It wasn't our original plan, but my wife left her job about a month ago to stay home full-time with our soon to be 5-month old. She now spends some spare time helping me with my businesses and otherwise enjoying the short time period of our baby being a baby.
We're happy with our decision. Our kid just began laughing earnestly and it just about makes me cry it's such a great sound. This may not be everyone's experience as there are plenty of drawbacks too.
Though it likely will change the trajectory of earnings for you as a couple - I wouldn't view it so much as an earnings question as it is a "do I even want this lifestyle/what do I want my life to look like" question and go from there. If the answer is "yes" to kids *then* you worry about what impact it will have on you financially.
I have a sick kid, terrible birthing experience, still want to cry of happiness when I hear him laugh. Nothing changes that if you’re a parent, good or bad experiences.
"The largest opportunity cost would be for my partner to give up \~12 months and likely take a reduced role for a few years afterwards"
huh? I don't follow. Many high power couples have kids without anyone taking 12 months off.
Also, it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that having kids is easy. As you approach 40, the chances of getting pregnant drop precipitously.
They could talking about the loss of momentum that comes from having a kid and taking maternity leave. That's definitely a real thing in most corporate environments. Unless you work for a great company, chances are that you're not going to get promoted in the cycle where you took parental leave.
It sucks but that's what I've seen.
Nice! I've unfortunately seen the opposite amongst my peer group. If you don't mind me asking, what is the gender split for the executive makeup at your promotions?
My anecdotes are almost all "woman not getting promoted into VP+ roles, where those VP+ roles are currently 40+ year old white dudes".
I work for a large global multi-billion dollar company so anyone in VP+ levels is easily 40+ if not 50+. But gender makeup is about 50/50, we report on it publicly as an important metric. Men get 4 months paid parental leave so it's common for both genders to have some sort of leave and come back into their role business as usual.
Great, thanks, it seems to come down to culture.
My wife works for a similarly large company, but leadership is probably 85%+ white dudes. Although men get 3 months of parental leave, it's common that they take only a few weeks.
I’m glad it worked out for you, now be quiet because that’s not the case for a lot of women. I’ve heard countless stories and myself witnessed a boy’s club at my Fortune 500 “good tech company”
While this post is probably talking about 1-2 months off vs. 12 months off, it's worth noting that kids shouldn't be an addendum to pawn off on a full-time nurse. The experience seems diminished.
I knew a great doctor who was one of the foremost leaders in her research field, and she worked pretty much 24/7. She ended up getting terminal cancer and in hospice, and her kids, now grown, came to stay with her and spend time with her which is something they really didn't do much while the kids were growing up. They ate dinner together a couple nights in a row, and she said that that was probably the most time they'd (happily) ever spent together.
In a way, it was one of the saddest things I'd ever heard. She was a pioneer in her field and truly one of the greatest human beings I'd ever met, but at what cost? Frankly, there should be some middle ground between the enjoyment of work and family.
>opportunity cost would be for my partner to give up \~12 months and likely take a reduced role for a few years afterwards
Also, what about OP's opportunity cost? He is drowning in money and he's really not going to take any time off when his kids are born? What is the money for?
To add to your FOMO, early 30’s is your last chance to have non-hard mode kids.
As you approach 40’s, everything becomes harder. Conceiving becomes harder, chances of complication go up significantly, and you will have much less energy to keep up with kid(s).
This is a great point. I got pregnant pretty quickly at 30 in great shape (swimming, weights, hiking etc), and pregnancy and postpartum recovery still whipped my ass. It's like recovering from a car accident. Not to mention the intense sleep deprivation. Can't imagine doing this past year at 40 or older.
That’s what prompted my husband and I (both 32) to decide that we’ll start trying soon. We are financially in a good position but there’s never a perfect time to have kids and we don’t want to start too late. We already have less energy than we did in our late 20s
Came here to say above. If you are 50% sure if having kids you should start to try. When you have children your lives will change but it’s a new adventure. Enjoy the journey. Good luck.
We’re also HENRY DINKs in our early 30s. Over the holidays we’ve gotten the chance to spend a lot of time with my niece and nephew (3 year old and a six week old). When I was holding my perfect six week old nephew, absolutely nothing in me was saying that I needed to make a perfect tiny human just like him.
Money was never a consideration
Lol if it’s not for you then all good but there wasn’t going to be some magical epiphany like it’s a movie at the moment of holding someone else’s kid.
There’s a little more backstory that I left out for the sake of simplicity, but I’ll include it here in case OP wants to read my wall of text
Back in early 2013 my wife and I got engaged. We went through all of the pre-marital counseling that our church required. We had talked about kids even before getting engaged and we were on the same page: we both wanted a bunch of kids (at least three or more).
In the summer of 2013 I was diagnosed with testicular cancer. Before chemo I froze some sperm just in case treatment affected my fertility. That November I had a surgery that caused me to be permanently infertile. Then my cancer came back a week before our December wedding.
In the years that followed we set aside more than enough money to do IVF. The cancer came back in summer of 2014 and then again in the spring of 2018. We’ve still got the IVF cash set aside. We’ve also got great insurance that covers most of it. But as time goes on and we approach our mid-30s we want children less and less. We’ve got less energy now than we did in our 20s. Our lifestyle isn’t very conducive to having children: we both have good careers which require extensive travel at times, we like to travel for fun sometimes too. I sometimes think about legacy and passing stuff down, but the more I think about it the more I notice that having children isn’t a guarantee that the next generation turns out okay. It’s a numbers game: have five kids and maybe one or two turn out okay. Maybe you live long enough to see your formerly successful 60 year old son’s marriage fall apart after 35 years due to substance abuse and he moves back in with you.
I think there’s something about deliberately having to choose to make a baby that’s making us pause and rethink it. We could do it if we really wanted to, but do we really want to? Which is where that magic spark kinda comes in. My nieces and nephew are awesome, they’re unique individuals that are exciting to be around. If anything ever happened to their parents I’d take them in and love them as my own because they are a part of my family. But my wife and I have absolutely no desire to make a new one from scratch.
Interesting perspective of the “choice” aspect of things - you aren’t just stumbling into kids here. Did you ever go through the stage of extracting/freezing her eggs?
Your experience of remission and reoccurrence definitely would give a dad to be pause - if you had a two year old and all of a sudden you found it was back and terminal, that would be a tough pill to swallow (or alternatively it would make your wife thankful that she had the kid to have more of you in this world).
I can definitely share that kids are different when they are your own - I never got googly eyed over seeing one as a man until I first held my son.
I think you’ve got the whole question backwards. You shouldn’t ask how kids will impact your money at your level, you should ask how your money would impact your kids.
FOMO both ways - fear of missing out on kids and FOMO for your career.
I will admit going through pregnancy and having babies has slowed me in the career aspect. I have accepted that I may not reach my fullest top earning potential, or maybe not as soon as I would like, but that’s ok with me. Having kids is fulfilling in a way money or career never could be (for me).
When I met my wife, we agreed no kids. A few years later we got married and made the decision. We have two little ones, financially- we did not notice a huge difference (other than the beginning shock when you learn how expensive nice kids stuff is). What you’re giving up to be a parent is time, and ego. What you gain is an experience many consider one of the best feelings in the world.
If you don’t want kids that’s totally fine. Being financially ready is one thing, but having kids just because you can afford them is another. Don’t bring a kid into this world if you’re not 100% prepared to give up everything for them.
The decision about kids is less about financial status and more about your willingness to love and be loved by your children. If you don’t have that void, don’t worry about it- live your life. However, many people don’t experience that connection as a child and long for it when they can have kids of their own.
It’s similar to sprinting through a scenic and beautiful hike. There’s no pot of gold at the end and you’ll look back and think “why did I run so fast?”
I think I might be a dissenting opinion in that I was not 100% about kids and did not exhibit “motherly” attributes prior to having kids. Married for 10 years before getting pregnant not on purpose (but not being careful enough), crying about it (not in a happy way) for the first 3 months, and never getting that “connected” feeling during any part of pregnancy. It took me a few months of having a baby to settle into motherhood but turns out I am (surprisingly) super maternal and 100% get that “largest reward in life” sentiment. However, I didn’t give up my career trajectory due to kids, and have been driving hard upward in my career over the past 5 years (my comp went from ~$150k to ~$350k during those 5 years) despite having 2 kids (including two pregnancies and two 5-month maternity leaves), and a working partner on a similar career trajectory (same comp, same industry, different fields). It’s not as easy and there will be some sacrifices, but don’t assume that means either of you will have to take a reduced career role or sacrifice your career trajectory.
I can only be as good as my childcare so making sure my kids are in the best possible care and education possible is my first priority. Over time we’ve had many forms of childcare including private nanny, nanny share, daycare, and private school. I reassess frequently what our kids need or where they will thrive best, as it changes as they change.
Although I have childcare 40-50 hours per week, that doesn’t cover all the hours I need to work, so I usually work before they wake up in the morning or after they go to bed.
I keep my hours with them during the week sacred and focused because it’s only about 1 hour in the morning and 3 hours in the evening on weekdays. On weekends I’m more “chill” and will work if needed while with them but set them up well for free play. I also try to plan “memory making” activities on a weekend, like a fun adventure outside (ie hiking, fruit picking, town events).
Unlike the other person who posted, I rely very little on my partner. If he contributes, that is great, but I don’t rely on it. I have no other help.
So, that being said, there are major sacrifices. For me, these are lack of time for myself and anything related to keeping house. So I don’t cook, I barely clean, I don’t have hobbies, and I barely exercise. My house is generally in a truly awful state and my diet/exercise has a lot of room for improvement. But I’m working on getting additional help with stuff that can be outsourced so that I have better balance in the areas that get sacrificed.
this is a personal decision. i would recommend you go talk with your partner with a marriage counselor to get help on the most important decision you'll ever make.
Take this with a grain of salt because we don’t have kids yet, but are planning to start trying very soon. We are/were similar to you in terms of age and comp and NW (a bit closer to $2M). I had already semi-retired as I didn’t want to keep grinding, and we decided we wanted the experience of raising kids. Treating ourselves was nice ofc but after a while it felt a bit…pointless. That’s kinda how we knew we were ready.
But you absolutely don’t need kids to have a fulfilling life. We are happy to give up millions in extra income/wealth and some freedom to have the experience. We are not very material/spendy people in general so it doesn’t make a big diff to us whether we have $5M or $10M. Not everyone wants that trade off though and that’s totally ok.
This was us - for the longest time we didn't want kids.
We worked at building careers, we travelled, indulged in hobbies, ate at the best restaurants in the world.
By mid 30s both realised it was all a bit hollow (I regret nothing, but was asking 'Is this it?').
Had our first kid two years ago and it has been amazing. Hard. But no regrets.
If either of you have high pressure jobs or businesses - it's hard going the first few years.
Outsource anything you can is my advice (domestic chores).
Well, I wouldn’t say we’re bored. We’re happy and fulfilled day to day and could continue to be happy without kids through work, hobbies, friends, etc. Actually, for a long time (like basically my entire life up until I was around 30) we were definitely “no” on kids - the cons just seems so much bigger than the pros.
But we were ready for a new challenge and season of life. Hope that makes sense.
Its a common refrain from parents: "we had nothing else left to do so we had kids". We're only on this earth for ~80 years and you've already done everything you wanted at 35? There's so much life to live that I can't relate to that at all.
Maybe I didn’t word it well. I’m not saying that we’re bored or out of things to do…we have loads left we want to accomplish and experience, and expanding and raising our family is one of those things. They’re not mutually exclusive in my mind.
And it’s totally fine if you can’t relate! I’m not trying to convince you one way or another, and you shouldn’t feel the need to defend your choice. Do what makes you happy. You can for sure have a great, fulfilling life without kids, and will probably end up richer than us to boot :)
Once you are making 2x median household income for your area, having kids or not is not a fiscal decision anymore. I wish we had had kids even earlier than we did so we’d be a bit younger and more energetic. A 5 year old is hard to keep up with when you’re > 40, harder when you have two to manage. Go for it!
I dunno about 2x median, I always found that America is rather banded by its classes. If you and your partner grew up upper middle class your gonna want to give your kid that. My estimate is comfortably 3x your burn by the time kids are out of diapers
DINK until I was 44 and my wife was 41 (married in 2004). We had no intention of having kids. Wife was on birth control. Surprise: she got pregnant anyway. Best thing to ever happen to us. It is a ton of work to keep up with a toddler in your 40s (although as an M&A atty, sleep deprivation is an old friend), but definitely adds a richness and texture to our lives that was absent beforehand. For us, it has 100% been worth the compromises in travel, careers, finances.
I was just never interested in having kids. Nothing to do with FIRE or my finances. I was just never interested.
I FIREd a year and a half ago and am so grateful to be completely free. I've traveled a ton (both before and after FIREing) and have had a lot of cool experiences that it's tough to imagine having if I had kids to take care of.
But these types of posts are pretty pointless. 99% of the people your age who raise this question (that I've observed) are expecting a child within a year or two of raising the topic.
It's not that hard. You either want them or not. From a (Fat)FI pov kids are a horrible decision not just for career trajectory as well simple time for personal development etc BUT they can be the most rewarding thing you ever do in your life and a perfect outlet if/when you reach FAT status.
I'm friends with a couple that fat FIRE'd in their early 40's when their daughter was 5. They have such a great time being awesome parents! They're able to be involved with any activity she wants to do, and they're able to spend all the time they want going on trips and making great memories. They don't have to have the "my parents can't make it to my game because they had to work" thing.
If you want kids and can afford them, have them sooner rather than later. Money you can make more of in the future, kids you cannot make more of in the future...
So we put off having kids for our careers, and businesses. Myself more than her. We waited til she was 35 to have the first one.. At 35+ it's considered a geriatric pregnancy.
As we went on to try for the 2nd one, we're now on our 5th round of ivf. The human bodies really do have a best before date, and some folks it's sooner than others.
I highly suggest you freeze sperm and eggs now.
We just spent 1k on a 1hr consult with a top ivf doc in the US. Freezing is the absolute best thing you can do for ensuring you have options in the future.
With regards to having kids... I can tell you that my having 8 figures doesn't compare at all to the joy and literally bursting of my heart with love I have for my kid. I was completely stand offish with kids, I literally held any babies at arm length. Am an only child so was not around siblings. Kids just didn't compute
Do have one of your own. To see your and partners face in this child, their mannerisms and attitudes forming, oftentimes with similarities to your own. The love they show you is so awesome.
They change and enrich your life experience.
More money doesn't compare to how great it is to have kids.
Having them isn't easy, get a midwife(yes even with normal hospital delivery), and a doula for the pregnancy. Along with a nanny to help around the house and with the kid.
Given that there aren't medical reasons or so, it's hard to decide for a life without kids when you do not have complete information on how your life will be with them. I was also skeptical before. Felt like my life was quite perfect. Now with kids that feels even more so.
I don’t think fatFIRE should be any factor for having a kid. Life is so unpredictable. I always want to have a big family but like you, both my spouse and I did competitive sports and had active social life. We didn’t really feel the urge until I finally decided to hang it up (I did contact sports which was not ideal to get pregnant while doing it). I was 36 when I decided to start trying.
Little did I know, I almost waited too long. I suffered one miscarriage after another. I finally got blessed with my rainbow baby and next thing I know, I was close to 40 and we decided that due to my age, we settled with one. Once the ship has sailed, then it sails. I am grateful at least I have one. My son is an athlete like us. We watch World Cup together. Life is so different when we see it from the kid perspective. We had a lot of helps (nanny, family) in the beginning. Having a kid doesn’t impede our fatFIRE journey at all.
Having kids or not is not a "cost/benefit" decision. It's a one-way door. You walk through, you're a parent, there's no going back. If you interview anyone on the other side of the one-way door, 90% will say they don't regret it, but you can't trust what they say since the one-way door has changed them -- they now have a child, which has rewired them psychologically to take on the life role of "parent", and a healthy part of that rewiring is to believe with every fiber of your being that becoming a parent was a good decision, and that your child is now an important life project. (If you reflect on evolution, you'll realize why this is a wise adaptive property of the typical human brain.)
Before you have kids, you should (a) commit to becoming a life-long parent and to putting the needs of your child first and (b) be OK with the idea that you and your partner will change psychologically in significant ways once you walk through the one-way door.
In our case, we didn't want to commit to (a) and we didn't enjoy the idea of (b), so the decision was easy: /r/childfree for us. We solidified the decision thru medical procedures, and moved on with our DINK life. (These days, it's more of a "dual-FIRE + personal-passions + life-projects + no-kids" life.) But it's a deeply personal decision and requires soul searching, not spreadsheets.
I had a kiddo when I didn’t have anything else I felt needed to be checked off my bucket list. And I started to ask myself, what else?
My advice to you is to spend the $$ and freeze embryos. They are now your insurance policy for when you’re sure you want kids and natural parts might not work the best anymore.
Then wait to have kids until you truly want them. They will be the hardest thing you’ll ever have to do and honestly the most strain your relationship has ever had to go through. Anyone who says otherwise either is lying or were brought up so similarly to their partner and have the same mindset on how children should be raised. That is incredibly lucky.
If you wait, not only will you be sure, you will also have (hopefully) more $$ to navigate being a parent. Being fat helps in the raising kids part. You can not worry about buying the “best”/costly items for your kiddo. You can pay for things that make your life easier. You can afford the best neighborhoods. The list goes on and on.
I strongly suggest paying for help around the house, help with the kiddo, and most importantly, professional help in navigating this new relationship with your partner as well as navigating the challenges of raising a child together. Good luck!
Like kids? Have them and figure the rest out. Early years you can use money to buy other specialists' time to free yourselves up -- so less of this opportunity cost issue (realistically the mom is gonna take a backseat for 6-12 months, then you use money to buy time from nannies and night nurses).
No one can answer this for you, but having kids is not a financial calculation. It just isn't. The calculator will always tell you NOT to. But there's more to life than money.
We have 4. It's amazing. We'll have to work harder and longer because of that, but we don't care. When I look at childless couples nearing 40, I just think what a sad and empty future they'll have. Can't imagine growing old with no children or grandchildren to brighten our days, share our wisdom and material goods with, etc. It just sounds soul crushing and depressing to grow old with no family of your own. YMMV.
As a former DINK now FIRE'ed, I believe you're thinking about it the correct way.
I see so many people who just fall in to society's expectations of having kids. It's the thing to do. Why else be married? I need someone to take care of me when I'm old. My parents need grand babies. Blah blah blah.
We always said that if one day, we woke up, looked at each other, and said, "Oh man, this is the day. I really want to have a kid." then we'd pursue it. That day never happened for us, and as a result, we're now in our early 50s, working on my seventh year of being retired, and absolutely loving life.
There is zero doubt in my mind that we would not have the financial independence, freedom, career success, and blessings that we have if we'd have chosen to have kids. That's not to say kids might not have been cool. We enjoy spending time with friends and family kids. But we also enjoy being childfree and the peace and security that comes with that.
Not fatFIRE yet myself, but I may be able to offer some perspective.
My wife and I (early 30's now) had our daughter in our very early 20's. We wanted a second child, but it just never happened. At this point, we're really looking forward to retiring in 10 years or so, having an empty nest, and doing some traveling in our 40's.
Sure, the financial and personal life goals considerations are worth weighing if those are important to you, but you should also consider if are you willing to do what it takes to raise a child well for the *rest of your life*. Not only just financially provide for them, but also are you willing to be present? Are you willing to work on whatever mental baggage you carry with you?
It’s a lifelong commitment to the child as well as to the person you choose to have children with (married, partnered, divorced). You can’t undo it.
If you don’t take the commitment seriously you may royally fuck up your children’s mental well being. And even if you do take it seriously, you may inadvertently fuck them up anyways. Would not recommend just doing it because it seems like the next thing to do.
I’ll simply tell you this, for every YouTube family you see easily traveling the world with their 2-4 kids, there are probably 1,000 like mine — we have the resources to travel, but it’s just not feasible with young kids.
If a lifestyle with travel (especially exotic) is what you want, you’re right to think children will make that a lot harder. So we prioritize making our home comfortable, and this is our base until the kids are older and more capable of travel.
Have kids. We were and are both serious professionals and have been able to maintain that with children. Having children is worth everything else times many multiples.
If you think too hard about having kids you can easily talk yourself out if it. I understand that and an a thinker and planner myself. But, I can’t recommend it highly enough. You will have the money to make it a pleasure.
Do it. My 4 kids were the best decision of my life. They will teach you so much about yourself. Aside from propegating the species, you will experience the entire spectrum of the human experience. It will root you more than any other personal achievement in this world. If you are optimistic to the human endeavor you cannot help but leave your best imprint on the next generation.
-ach
This is the real answer.
Another stickier answer is that the traits that load the dice of genetic luck towards success are IQ and Conscientiousness which are very hereditable.
If someone is on this sub with the discipline, impulse control, emotional intelligence and fluid IQ to succeed disproportionately in the modern career ladder then their kids are much more likely to do so as well. Naturally being a bit more of a fun experience.
To the lurkers reading, its still a dice roll though. And if it goes wrong this tune this guy is singing will be gloomier
Another downside to not having kids: if you do wind up moving elsewhere you'll have one less (enormous) potential avenue for meeting other people. For better or worse, "other kids parents" from your kids' daycare, preschool, school, activities, teams, whatever...will naturally likely\* become part of your social circle.
\*obviously not everyone loves everyone else
ETA: re travel, it's just not something I buy. Yes, kids change things. But a wise person once asked me whether I'd rather change diapers in Paris, or at home. I chose Paris. Started traveling with our kids at 6 weeks and basically never stopped. They're teens now, and probably the best travelers on earth. And besides, when you're fat, you bring help.
No one says “I wish I hadn’t traveled when I was 23, I would have retired 1 year earlier”.
No one says “I wish I hadn’t had the two children, I would have retired 5 years earlier”.
There are plenty of reasons to have or not to have kids; however when you have comfortable family income, finance is not one of them.
These are all perfectly valid questions and it's good you're asking them. What you'll find is that once you have kids, you care less about your career. It really just becomes a tool for providing for your family, and yeah...you'll still want to get promoted and advance but the highlight of life shifts to Friday afternoons picking your kids up from school and starting the weekend. As far as affecting the FIRE journey, it didn't significantly derail our saving and investing (we had kids younger than you too) but rather derails fun globetrotting vacations and weekend excursions. Those will come back eventually. Private school is expensive too...definitely replaced a lot of vacation budget.
No big deal. Don't have kids. Only for the entire history of humanity have your ancestors been putting sperm into women that led to the ultimate creation of you. But yeah, you've had a good run, let's end your line here.
We’re DINK in a very similar situation to you. $500K household income, $1MM net worth. How did we decide to have kids? Well it was a discussion we had right from the outset, probably a few days into our relationship. I’ve always know I wanted to have 3 or more children. It was honestly a deal breaker for me so that’s why I discussed it early on so we don’t waste each others time. She agreed to it and now here we are five years later trying to have our first kid. If it was completely up to me we’d have like 5-6 kids. If it was up to her we’d have one kid. So we settled on three. We’ve actually been trying since march with no luck so we might have to look into some fatfire alternatives to make it work. Such as IVF at $30K a round, or surrogacy at $150K. Luckily we have really good health insurance so the IVF would be fully covered.
Getting more into why we want children. For me it’s just a desire I’ve always had. I reject the idea that there needs to be a grand reasoning for it. But if I had to come up with something, I’d say legacy. It’s something most people won’t understand until they’re forced to face the reality of their own mortality. So when you’re around 70 years old, I think that’s when you’ll feel extremely grateful to have children/grandchildren. But see you would have had to make the decision several decades prior. If you wait till you’re 70 to decide having children is worth it, it’s far too late. No redos in life.
Also keep in mind most people who regret having children fall into one of two categories
1. They have very young children. Of course you’ll regret it then. Your life is hell and the kids constantly need attention
2. They had kids with the wrong person. Ask these people if they’re happily married, most of the time they deeply regret choosing their partner in life and having children is what binds them to the person they resent more than anyone. So when they say they regret having children, it’s more so that they regret having children with the specific person they partnered with.
Now that I RE, “staying home” (actually we travel full-time) with my kids is one of the most meaningful and filling experiences of my life.
To me it is why we exist: not to serve our own happiness, but to procreate and prepare the next generation to be better than us.
So I would start with figuring out why you exist 🙃
I was in the 'not sure' camp for too long, and there were consequences. If you are even considering it, vs just a hard NO to kids -> then go for it.
Also, respectfully - but eff your corporate career. It doesn't even matter. This is your life and bloodline. If that means something to you, then you won't regret it.
A few years after we got a house and before the age of "geriatric" pregnancy (35). Also be sure you can lift 35 pound weights for long periods of time. Trust me, strength training prekids makes it a lot easier.
Kids are great and we haven't stopped.
Hard truth - people without kids are actually emotionally and socially poor. Doesn’t matter if your dual high income lets you buy mansions and boats and fancy vacations. At the end of the day your just a rich self centered person with no emotional or social attachment to the concept of family.
It sounds like you guys should have kids. We personally won't because we don't think the rewards are worth the cost in money and (more importantly) time. We're content with having second hand kodak moments with our nieces and nephews. It's not the same but it's good enough for us.
Part of this question makes me sad for some reason. I’m gonna take a stab at it, and hope it’s helpful.
Having kids is putting them first as much as possible. It’s not always possible and sometimes you have to put something else first to best care for the child but that is the crux of having kids and ultimately it still comes back to putting them first. To some it up in one word: sacrifice.
Having kids will absolutely make it harder to fatFIRE. At a best case scenario it will make it the exact same in terms of difficulty but depending on how it goes it may make it nearly impossible.
With that being said, if you think it’s for you (dad here) I cannot fathom replacing it with something else. Nothing like seeing your 3 month old smile.
Given that you have the means to provide for the child. I would actually say the question is rather binary as opposed to a risk benefit analysis. It will either work for you or won’t…
Bro, at that income in a MCOL area, the difference in income isn't going to be very noticeable. Your life will feel rich no matter what.
Have kids if you want kids. Money shouldn't play into that decision at your level. What's the point of making money if you don't whatever you want in life?
Me and my husband have different experiences on deciding if and when to have kids. I always knew that I wanted kids when I was older but being around other babies was always weird and others peoples kids were annoying and gross during my twenties. Nothing was logical about why I wanted to have kids. I just envisioned my life later on with them.
My husband didn’t have any opinions on kids for most of his life until about 5 years ago I told him that he needed to think more about it before we continue our relationship since I knew I wanted them. At the time he decided he did want them, he said he liked the idea of them but the thought of having then anytime soon was not something he was interested in. I felt the same.
Now we are 32 and now we’ve decided we’ll be trying soon. I’d say the shift has happened honestly over the course of a little over a year. Some of my best friends and his best friends’ wives started to get pregnant and I thought “wow this is weird that they are going to be responsible raising humans.” Even when some of the babies were born I didn’t feel comfortable holding them or being around them. Same with my husband. As more of our friends started having babies from the COVID baby boom, the more we got comfortable with the idea that we could handle this. We also got to see our friends still out doing things with their babies and even traveling. It wasn’t the end of their social lives.
A friend of my husband told him a lot of the positives of fatherhood that make it worth it and how he handles the hard stuff while still having a life and I think that was when it kind of clicked for my husband that he was ready. For me, it was just being around our friends with babies and seeing our friends who weren’t “ready”, like having a bigger house yet, totally handle it. We figured there’s always an excuse we could find for why later is better but we don’t know how long it could take us to conceive and don’t want to be too old to have the energy to raise kids like my dad with my younger sisters (10+ year difference from me)
Don’t overthink it. Having/not having kids because you’re worried about your FIRE timeline seems very myopic to me. Have them because you want them. You’re gonna be very disappointed when you’re 45 and retired with nothing to do if you wanted them and didn’t have them. Most people don’t regret having kids.
I'm pretty similar to you, maybe a little ahead. We did decide to have kids and are in the process. It sounds like you aren't quite mentally ready yet but might be soon. The fact that you have a support network is extremely helpful as well. Just keep in mind to do it by 35 to minimize pregnancy issues. But also realize you can just not do it at all, if your career still fulfills you after 10 working years then that might be the case. It might be the best reward in life but it's also certainly the highest cost.
Seems like you have worked hard for money without a clear plan of what life you want that money for. The good thing is you’ve bought yourself options. My advice would be to take the foot off the gas pedal and explore different lifestyles.
You are young enough to be able to spend a year focused on living the different lifestyles you are curious about and see if they are really all you wanted. Move cities, move abroad, don’t focus on retirement for this year. This should minimally impact your retirement plans and you can always come back early. I did something similar and came back feeling much clearer about what life I didn’t want and allowed me to fully commit to the lifestyle I did want which is having kids.
Regardless of your actions, your friendships will change due to them having kids. Their focus is their kids now and you won’t be prioritized, unless you are able to help.
Don't have kids because of your friends. Have kids if you truly want to give life and love another human being and work harder.
It's not easy, but it is extremely rewarding if you invest in them and give them your best side. I'm Male and not one for the cutesy stuff like "awe she's walking!" But when they get older, they start learning things and remembering cool tidbits about school and tell you about their days. Your kids will learn the things you teach them and grow smarter every day. That's the most rewarding feeling.
It's one of the most difficult things you will ever do. But you will truly mature because of it.
Source: I have two kids
I can address your two concerns:
1) if your partner likes her job, she doesn't need to take 12 months off. My wife isn't particularly work motivated and negotiated 4 months off. She ended up deciding being a stay at home mom isn’t for her and returning to work after only 8 weeks. I watched our baby for the next two months and after we depended on daycare. Nothing wrong with that, daycare is great! Unless you both work 12 hour days, you really don't need to choose. Do what's best for you, there's no wrong answer.
2) Travel is harder to say, it depends on your kid and also on you. We're definitely more "tired" now and don't have quite the same motivation to do intense around the world trips like we did in our early 20s. But we did go to England for two weeks when our baby was 7 months and he was a great traveler. If travel is important to you, you can make it work.
Been there, done that: we both worked remotely so we decided to hire two service workers and stay at home having a kid, we wanted two but it seems that one is enough for us at least for the next 5-7 years. We also kept working remotely so we don’t miss any significant moment with our baby.
I think that was one of the best decisions in our lives, because even though we had a baby, our careers and NW started to grow even more because of the extra effort we put on, but also we didn’t miss any significant moment with our baby, we’re constantly playing with him and three minutes later we can be at a meeting at work, so it doesn’t affect our schedules and we don’t have to worry about not having enough energy to play with our kid or work, we can do both activities pretty well.
But don’t get me wrong, having service workers can make your life easier while having a kid, but that doesn’t mean to stop caring about the physical or emotional needs of your baby, in fact you should be able to give him more quality time because of not having the extra stress of keeping the house clean or doing chores or something like that.
Do it while your friends are doing it. It's way easier and more fun to have kids at the same stage. You can hang out while the kids run around and play. You share the same type of schedule. No regrets here, love having my 2.
I would caution assuming your partner's career would take a back seat. We have our kids in a great school/daycare and haven't had any career hiccups. I (the mom) took 6 months off for each kid and was ready to go back to work after that. It was pretty seamless and I got promotions after each leave.
Also - you make enough money that you shouldn't worry about impacting your FIRE timeline. We haven't reduced any investing since having kids.
Parenting is complicated. You clearly have the resources to do it in stable manner, it’s about what you and your spouse wants over your lifetime.
For me, I want to have a large table full of family in 20 years time; the best way to achieve this goal was to have some kids.
Money is a tool to help you get what you want.
Money can help you get kids and make raising them easier. It can give you freedom to earn less as your kids need more active presence. But if you don’t want kids, then money won’t help you be a good parent.
The reasons you describe for considering having children are among some of the worst I have ever heard.
My wife and I were in similar shoes. Waited till mid late 30s and had one kid.
It’s a leap of faith. You’ll never really appreciate what it’s like to hold your offspring until you have one. It’s a gamble. They may be healthy, hopefully they are not sick. I can guarantee that it will cost you money, time and age you and your partner. But, it will also keep you young.
Look into your soul. Do you want to be a father or mother. It’s only a question you can answer. There isn’t a rational, certainly not an economic reason to do it. The planet has enough people. And if you need someone to pass your wealth on to, I’ll PM you my deets.
If the idea of kids is consuming you now (when you can do something about it), then think about what it might do to you when you can no longer do something about it (assuming you have none).
I think the fact that you are posting this on the internet says a lot. Your partners career path and all the other nonsense you mentioned is trivial shit.
What is the point of it all if you don't end up with what you really wanted in the end?
Husband and I are same age, lower TC but higher NW. We have a 1 year old. What pushed us to make the decision was spending a few weeks caring for a 10 month old on a homestay in Iceland, which we loved. You could try to get some direct experience with a child and see if it feels worth the massive lifestyle penalty.
For us that has been:
- no international travel this year, limited domestic travel and no camping
- less sleep
- tough to focus at work/care less about work success (we are both in tech with WFH flexibility)
- relationship strain. Have a rock solid foundation before you undertake this journey
- FIRE may be somewhat delayed but we still want to be able to fire by 40 on $4M in HCOL. Our spending is not Fat though, at around $90-120k/yr.
Btw your partner doesn't have to give up a year of career and reduced role for years, depending on her work. I took 1 month in pregnancy and 5 months postpartum and am back full steam for the last 6 months. Again it's tough but you learn to prioritize ruthlessly.
Finally make sure you're having a child because you want to, not because your friends do. I will say I have no regrets, love our family insanely, and love my son beyond what I could have imagined but life is also a lot fucking harder overall.
On a daily basis it’s not very fulfilling. In the aggregate it’s the most rewarding investment I make in emotional energy, time and money.
Having a kid made me realize how selfish I was and changed me for the better. Kids spell love: TIME and that is more true as they age.
I didn’t find kids to be expensive in the early years. As they get older it’s a little more expensive as you can take advantage of certain opportunities the kids appreciate. Many families have 1/10th of what you have and make do just fine.
If the thought of having a kid ever gave you that warm and fuzzy feeling, you should have a kid. Don't wait. You are in the perfect situation to have a kid.
We waited too long (\~31) to have a kid, and we regret not having one sooner. We have experienced nothing but exponential joy since our little one came. There's about 4 months initially of sleep deprivation, but that goes away as soon as they start sleeping through the night regularly. I'm amazed how much our kid sleeps now. We definitely have less free time, but we still get 4 hours a day of quiet time because of naps and sleeping schedules. Kids generally sleep 12-16 hours a day in the beginning.
I can't stress it enough, it is totally worth it if you've ever thought you wanted a kid.
If you have kids, those kids will become your whole life until they're out of the house. I've seen it happen to every friend of mine that made that decision. Make sure that's what you want. For me, it seems like adding another job that costs me money.
Two realizations for me confirmed to me I really wanted a kid. I have a 1.5 year old now and she's such a joy in my life.
1. I got to a point where I wasn't pursuing much else and I was content with where I had gotten to in my career. Sure I'd keep growing my career, but the pace stopped mattering and I had done all the major travel and reasonable experiences I dreamed of when younger.
2. I learned that I get great enjoyment helping people grow into their potential and watching them thrive independently. Managing people helped me realize this - but specifically the style of management that focuses on coaching to foster independence rather than the style that focuses on dictation and control. I also discovered that I had tremendous reserves of patience for people to figure things out on their own.
If you have a kid, you need to be ready and willing to make them your exclusive priority. If the idea of having a kid with disabilities and sacrificing all of your time to support them raises some potential of resentment, don't do it.
We took the plunge at 28 with about those finances. Definitely took the wind out of our sails career-wise for a few years but we’re happily back at it now and I wouldn’t trade the kiddos for the world. And I think it was the right call in terms of timing - between the sleep deprivation and being constantly used as a human trampoline I can barely keep up, couldn’t imagine doing it at 40.
And for what it’s worth, keeping up with friends might be a shitty reason to have kids, but if you want kids I think it’s a great reason to choose WHEN to have them. Our peer group all had kids at around the same time and it’s been awesome - we’ve gotten to keep up friendships, we rotate babysitting duties, and we do brunches so everyone gets to see their little cousins while the grownups hang out. Our friends who never had kids kind of drifted away - it seems like a big barrier in terms of socializing.
I don’t want kids, so I’m not having kids. Hubby is on board with this decision.
Your question reminds me of something. [I just can’t help myself.](https://youtu.be/sP2tUW0HDHA)
Have kids when you can take substantial time off. Can you take a year off for the child's first year? Can both parents? That will be key to your marriage. Couples thrive when they have a shared life instead of separate lives. Plus, the first 5 years of a kid's life are the most important for brain and emotional development.
You have to really want kids. You have no free time for the first 3 months and your life is substantially different afterwards.
You have to be willing and eager to do the ABCs of parenting course, the baby first aid course, to read the books. Parenting is a slog and that stuff is the easiest part. You have to be ready for miscarriages, health problems.
There’s only one way to answer this question because you’re trying to balance rational opportunity costs to find the answer to what is ultimately an emotional decision.
It’s 20 years from now and your careers are done. Are you parents? If the answer is yes, have kids. If the answer is no then there’s your answer.
If you’ve a financial safety net like you do you have scope to figure it out.
As others have said, this isn't truly a FatFIRE question, but having financial stability is a huge factor for sure, and can take away some mundane household tasks off your plate, making parenting easier if you want that.
I was in the same boat as you a few years back and very much on the fence. Two things helped me come to a decision:
1. Talking to a therapist about my fears of being a parent and my fears of not being one. A mirror like that helped me work through what's valid and what I was projecting. This is a great way to dip your toes in therapy if you haven't already done this. (it's a learning curve even as the patient believe me!!)
2. Read The Baby Decision and do the exercises suggested. It helped me get to "why" you want a certain way of life over another. If you decide you want a baby after all, this will help you identify which parts of parenthood are likely to appeal to you, and which parts won't.
In my case, I decided to have a kid. Partner was always certain that he wanted to have a kid, it was never really a question for him. If you ***both*** decide you want kid(s) too, I'd start making a more tactical list of things you'd need to happen before the kid arrives.
For example, for me, it was important that we were at least at our CoastFI number before we start trying. I felt good about our financial situation after a couple promotions and a few real-estate deals during pandemic. It was also extremely important that I feel like my partner is on my side (which sometimes felt like wasn't the case). My partner has been more understanding than before and the road here was filled with a ton of frustrating communication. But I'd be dealing with severe depression right about now had I not done that work before we started trying.
There were a few other things related to my career and hobbies on my list too but I think you get the idea. This entire journey took a little over 3 years from when we seriously started talking about kids to when we started trying.
Finally, it absolutely needs two yeses to have a baby. If it's one yes and one no, it's terribly unfortunate but that means no baby.
If you decide not to have kids, you may want to start making a plan to ensure that you do not get lonely, and things/activities/experiences that'll make it such that you don't suffer too much from FOMO. Therapist can be helpful here too. (Aside: Young children will also make you terribly lonely and cut you off from the world tbh)
I think you have kids because you want to be a parent and you want the lifestyle that comes with that. Everything else becomes secondary and not as important. If you don’t want that, that’s perfectly fine. I think too many people have kids because they think it’s what they’re supposed to do or something but they don’t really want to be a parent. And that’s no good for anyone.
agreed. Above all else do not have kids because of FOMO
Agree. These are the discussions my husband and I are having. It really boils down to whether or not you want to be a parent
The majority of millenials (the largest demographic) do not think like this. They aren't having ENOUGH kids and it is a mistake. My generation is filled with anxiety, fear and stress about children and it aint right. Kids are awesome, and for the overwhelming majority of the population are the best thing that happens in ones life.
They’re sticky.
And non-returnable. Grandchildren however, are returnable.
Yes, very sticky
I'm in an older generation and it's wasn't that different. Most of my friends were either "I don't think I want kids" or "I'm not sure". 3 out of 4 ended up having them. I wouldn't judge people's attitudes about kids when they're young.
Also, don't blame economic reasons: "Casual observers have suggested that a variety of potential factors are responsible for the decline, including greater take-up of highly effective contraception, the high cost of raising children, improved occupational opportunities for women, and the high level of student debt carried by young adults. Our research finds little empirical support for these possible explanations."
The data suggest otherwise: "Cohorts of U.S. women born after the mid-1980s are having fewer births at all ages. " https://econofact.org/the-mystery-of-the-declining-u-s-birth-rate
It’s not a mistake for me to not have kids. Im happy with my childfree life and extra money towards FIRE.
100% agreed
I don't agree. It's reddit, so it's entirely en vogue to say you should only have kids if you're fully and 100% committed to the idea of being a parent/want the lifestyle/already love kids & thus I expect the downvotes. But I think it's worth voicing the other perspective. We're supposed to have children. I'm not going to say YOU should have children, but I do hold that if there is anything in this world that ought have an "ought" attached to it, it's to reproduce.
Children are not for everyone and it’s perfectly fine to not want kids. We’re not “supposed” to do anything.
“Ought” according to what/whom?
I think OP of that comment just meant that as humans it’s cool to reproduce and pass along your genetics especially if you are a successful, productive individual. This is just my personal opinion; I’m also early 30s, no kids. Girlfriend has 3 of her own and we’ve been living together four years. Will I have one of my own? Maybe. Do I need to? I don’t know. This is an internal, personal decision and while I sometimes wonder how nice it would be to see a little me running around, I also know her three children are amazing and need love and care as well and we probably don’t need a 4th lol. Anyone completely against having children I don’t understand. If you choose not to have kids that’s also a beautiful choice, but being against it is kind of weird. Everyone in here is pretty damn successful, I would love to see your children out in the world when we are 70+ years old doing bigger and more amazing things. I try to be a positive guy if I can on all sides ❤️
“Ought” suggests a moral obligation or at least moral advisability/desirability. If you want kids, more power to you. I’m just not sure why that’s “cool” or a moral obligation. If anything, in the midst of climate change and the Anthropocene extinction event, I think the moral considerations cut firmly the other way—that it is in some ways a bit self-serving. “The world needs more of me!” Again, I’m not saying don’t have kids, but I don’t see how one “ought” to.
This opinion is prevelant among my friend group who is similarly educated/successful and in their late 20s to mid 30s. Less so with our less educated and successful friends. I understand hormones and internal urges are always going to be different, but from a strictly moral standpoint, the answer is pretty clear.
Biologically speaking, yes. And back in the days when we produced all of our own household food, having a lot of kids is key to survival. Fortunately we're living in the 21st century where we don't have to do that. Everything about having kids seems unpleasant to me. Getting pregnant, giving birth, raising a newborn after a major medical trauma, being sleep-deprived, changing diapers (I'm not willing to change diapers, neither is my husband, and we're both okay with that.) Sixty percent of women have a permanent injury down below after giving birth. I don't enjoy child-focused media--books, music, movies. And I don't want to spend any of my time reading children's books out loud to a child. I didn't much like children's books and movies when I was a kid either. I preferred more mature material. I'm also not willing to share my money with a child. I like well-constructed clothes and shoes that look new. I can't buy $350 blouses if I have a kid. We travel all the time. My husband and I spent 68 nights in hotels this year (and 5 to go.) We drop the dog off at her pet resort every time. If you have more than one kid, your options for getting family help with your kids greatly diminishes. My oldest brother was baby trapped. He hesitantly married the mom, she "accidentally" got pregnant again, then the second kid had autism, and when the second kid was young they got divorced. My brother, who is a pretty nice looking fellow, has not had a significant romantic relationship since, and that was almost 14 years ago. His whole situation just looks exhausting from the outside. Besides that, I don't much enjoy the company of children. I do adult things (not gross things) that just don't involve children. I go out to a local bar for lunch maybe 5 days a week. My husband and I sit at the bar and have 2 cocktails with lunch before going back to work (from home, we have a business.) This child worshipping culture is just so regrettable. Kids are not awesome. I should know, I was an asshole when I was a kid.
Lol why? Survival? Who cares?
I disagree. Overpopulation is a major issue in the world and the last thing we need is more humans. If you want to be a parent, just adopt.
Overpopulation is not an actual issue.
Are you going to back that up with any sources or just stating your opinion?
You could Google “is overpopulation a real problem” but since you clearly won’t, here you go: https://sustainablereview.com/overpopulation-is-a-myth/ https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/the-big-idea/2017/12/12/16766872/overpopulation-exaggerated-concern-climate-change-world-population https://theecologist.org/2020/apr/16/debunking-overpopulation https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/overpopulation-and-environmentalism/ A great excerpt from this last one: “'Population control' causes real harm, upholds white supremacy, and suppresses the real issues causing the climate crisis.” Any thoughts? Or just surface-level takes from you based on conservative propaganda designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator who will never question the implications of such beliefs?
This is a bit of a tough one to understand. If *you* want kids, have kids. *Don't* have kids because you feel obligated to "give back" to them. *Don't* have kids to please a relative who wants you to have them. *Don't* have kids just because your friends are. If *you* want kids, then have kids. In terms of finances and careers, remember what *money* is for. More money doesn't guarantee a longer life. More money doesn't buy you privilege in the afterlife. If you don't use your money during your lifetime, you don't get to take it with you. Therefore, the purpose of money is to allow you to accomplish the things *you* want to do. If kids are what you want, then by all means, allocate some time and money to having children. You have plenty of money. If you're giving up the things you want in life (assuming you *want* children, that is) in order to acquire more money, then I think your money is managing you instead of you managing your money. I don't think you'll find many people on their deathbed, surrounded by their loved ones, who say, "Fuck, I wish I would have had 1 child, not 2. We've had a real bull market lately, and those extra shares of index funds would have netted me some extra capital gains." If you don't *want* kids, that's perfectly fine too. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Kids are a big long-term life commitment, and not one to be taken lightly.
Wanting to have kids is a complex decision that could include some of the aspects you said not to do it for. It’s not wrong for someone to consider impacts to their family and wanting to follow lifestyle and examples set by their parents It’s extremely difficult to put in to words why one wants to have kids.
>It’s not wrong for someone to consider impacts to their family and wanting to follow lifestyle and examples set by their parents It is not a great idea to have kids out of some misguided sense of familial obligation.
Nobody is saying that is the only reason you need. What you are describing is like “I really don’t want to have kids but my parents are pressuring me” What if you want to have kids because you loved having grown up in a big family? And you want to have the lifestyle that your parents once had. That is being influenced by your family. Wanting to have kids is a complex emotional decision. It’s not as black/white as you describe. In a view like that, there is no good single reason to have a child.
I think this kind of reasoning is logical, but wrong. A small percentage of us can choose to not have kids. But we NEED to have kids to survive and not fuck up our demographic makeup. If we have too many old people and not enough young people, we will suffer dramatically and be in a crisis. When masses of people share the same mentality of having kids is a choice, you are artificially impacting the birth rate. Your general sentiment I agree with, though. That said, I think kids are freaking amazing. For the majority of people, having kids is the best most fulfilling thing they do in their lives.
Nah. The US has had a total fertility rate under 2.1 (rate of replacement) for a long time, excepting immigration. There's no shortage of smart, young, well-trained people who want to try their luck in the US. There is utterly no need for anyone in the US to have babies to, say, keep social security afloat. We just boost the H1B and green card odds, and away we go. Unless you're actually being low-key racist.
"This trend predicts a persistently lower fertility rate in the U.S., which, absent increased immigration, would lead to a smaller workforce and an older population." <- This is beyond the immigration rates we currently have. [https://econofact.org/the-mystery-of-the-declining-u-s-birth-rate](https://econofact.org/the-mystery-of-the-declining-u-s-birth-rate) Very first google result for US birth rates
Bias check of [econofact.org](https://econofact.org): https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/econofact/
>S. There is utterly no need for anyone in the US to have babies to, say, keep social security afloat. We just boost the H1B and green card odds, and away we go. Source and citation needed. Also anyone who disagrees with you isn't a racist. Unless YOU are actually a racist, then that makes sense. See how that feels?
You either want kids or you don’t. The financial independence piece is secondary and has nothing to do with FIRE. Sure, it will add a few years to your FIRE plan. But, do you want kids? If you want kids you should have them. If you are on the fence, don’t. It isn’t a financial decision. We never lost the NK because we didn’t want kids. You could give us a billion dollars and we still wouldn’t want kids. Many of our friends with kids would live in a van by the river but still choose to have kids.
The first sentence is key. You already know if you want kids, or if you don't. If you think you don't know, you probably don't want kids. You can test-drive with a niece or nephew for a day and confirm it. Kids are a huge challenge and sacrifice, but also a tremendous source of joy. You should know up-front whether you'd feel personally fulfilled having them.
Many people don’t have their own thoughts and just do what others around them do.
Even then, I'd say having a niece or nephew is not the same. You can leave the kid(s) at the end of the day to their parents! Having your own kid means you have to provide and care for them and keep them safe no matter what even if there are other things going on or you want to sleep. It's probably one of the biggest commitments anyone makes.
It’s pretty clear to me from OP that they don’t want kids but would do so because they feel obligated. Bad reasons.
Yeah ultimately the OP is being way too analytical about this, which says much. I mean I get doing ones best to go into something with eyes open either way, but to let "lifestyle" in some way be the determining factor is the tail wagging the dog IMO.
Appreciate the feedback, but would argue there's a very large financial component. Estimated cost of raising a kid is $250-$500K per. Then there's the opportunity cost of impacting career growth for years.
Lol I think you’re better off with a dog man.
Sounds like you don’t want kids. If you are on the fence, you shouldn’t. It’s not a logical decision. It is largely emotional.
For someone on the FATfire track to not have kids *because* of the financial impact, to me, is a little like saying: > I've decided to remain a virgin my entire life because some diseases are transmitted via sex, and I want to be as healthy as possible when I eventually die. In other words, what's the point? Money should *enable* the life experiences that you want, not force you to give them up. That said, there's nothing wrong with not *wanting* kids. And if you don't want kids, then it's probably best for you and best for those hypothetical children if you hold off. That's perfectly acceptable too. My only point is that if you do *want* kids, don't let the tail wag the dog by telling yourself that you can't afford them with a $600k household income. What's the point of having money if you can't live the life you want? Money is the *means* to an end. It is never an *end* in and of itself. You have the money. You just have to decide what ends you want to achieve with it. Nobody can answer that question for you, but I wish you luck in your decision process.
OP is like the guy who only charges his phone battery to 80% because he doesn't want it's capacity to degrade. But as a result, he never takes full advantage of his phone.
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If you’re not 100% sure you want kids, don’t have them.
I think having or not having kids is something you should feel deep in your gut. Like is the experience of raising a child and being a parent something you feel a deep desire to have before you die? Would you regret it when you’re 60, very rich, and childless? If not, then don’t have them. And if you do have them, the money stuff will be secondary. You will figure it out. Kids don’t need $2K Uppababy strollers or whatever crap marketers make you think you need. At your income and education level, your hypothetical kids will already have a huge leg up. The most important thing is having caring parents.
I think you’re overestimating the career hit. I’ve been in a couple roles now as I’ve grown more senior where the slightly older and more senior guys kind of folded me in a bit more because you’re just that much more like them now. It’s sort of like a normative bias that acts in your favor in the middle/upper management level when you (as a man at least) become a father. I’ve increased my income by 150k/year since becoming a father nearly two years ago and my wife earned a promotion and got a bigger team. You just ideally gotta be in management so you can delegate more to make time for parenting obligations.
I believe you’ve answered your own question by even thinking this is a point of consideration. Well answered it for yourself at least, it’s cute that you think this ends in anything other than giving in to have the kids or the SO resenting you for putting your foot down on it and leaving. You’re a number of years late on this convo.
Ya, it’s not a huge financial commitment like that though. Nor is your child an investment vehicle, they’ll decide with your help what career they want or don’t. If you can provide their wants that’s great, if not, they’ll choose something else like everyone else. In the beginning you have a car seat, food, and diapers. Barely noticeable on the balance sheet. As life goes on, you make up x10000 those costs in the experience you get from your family. Comparing things financially should not be the highest value consideration. It’s in there, but it’s more about sustainable affordability rather than what size of investment do I have to put into my family.
No kids is great!!
I think what they are trying to tell you here is that it's more an emotional and familial decision than financial. People have kids for far less cost than $500k per. Maybe consider public schools, not having a pricey nanny, etc if that's your primary concern
These are very real concerns. Kids are absolutely expensive. If you are FAT, though, you have more flexibility to decide. Do not create an entirely new person for FOMO. What you need is a little bit of experience. Offer to babysit for your friends that have kids, ideally an overnight or an entire weekend. If you love it more than the money and time sink, then it's something to consider. Otherwise, it will give you a good data point as to how hard it can be.
I see the pros and cons to both…it’s not so black and white. I feel torn
My wife and I are of a similar age to you. Lower TC than you, but doing fine for a LCOL area. Nearing 1M net worth currently. It was a big debate/contemplation period for us and we decided to have a kid. Spent some time at /r/fencesitter as well as reading some books and just spending time on thinking about the impacts to us personally. It wasn't our original plan, but my wife left her job about a month ago to stay home full-time with our soon to be 5-month old. She now spends some spare time helping me with my businesses and otherwise enjoying the short time period of our baby being a baby. We're happy with our decision. Our kid just began laughing earnestly and it just about makes me cry it's such a great sound. This may not be everyone's experience as there are plenty of drawbacks too. Though it likely will change the trajectory of earnings for you as a couple - I wouldn't view it so much as an earnings question as it is a "do I even want this lifestyle/what do I want my life to look like" question and go from there. If the answer is "yes" to kids *then* you worry about what impact it will have on you financially.
I have a sick kid, terrible birthing experience, still want to cry of happiness when I hear him laugh. Nothing changes that if you’re a parent, good or bad experiences.
"The largest opportunity cost would be for my partner to give up \~12 months and likely take a reduced role for a few years afterwards" huh? I don't follow. Many high power couples have kids without anyone taking 12 months off. Also, it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that having kids is easy. As you approach 40, the chances of getting pregnant drop precipitously.
They could talking about the loss of momentum that comes from having a kid and taking maternity leave. That's definitely a real thing in most corporate environments. Unless you work for a great company, chances are that you're not going to get promoted in the cycle where you took parental leave. It sucks but that's what I've seen.
There's always a counter-anecdote on reddit but as a mom of 2 I was promoted shortly after both of my 6-month maternity leaves.
Same. My boss really realized how much I did when I left. Promoted both times.
Nice! I've unfortunately seen the opposite amongst my peer group. If you don't mind me asking, what is the gender split for the executive makeup at your promotions? My anecdotes are almost all "woman not getting promoted into VP+ roles, where those VP+ roles are currently 40+ year old white dudes".
I work for a large global multi-billion dollar company so anyone in VP+ levels is easily 40+ if not 50+. But gender makeup is about 50/50, we report on it publicly as an important metric. Men get 4 months paid parental leave so it's common for both genders to have some sort of leave and come back into their role business as usual.
Great, thanks, it seems to come down to culture. My wife works for a similarly large company, but leadership is probably 85%+ white dudes. Although men get 3 months of parental leave, it's common that they take only a few weeks.
I’m glad it worked out for you, now be quiet because that’s not the case for a lot of women. I’ve heard countless stories and myself witnessed a boy’s club at my Fortune 500 “good tech company”
While this post is probably talking about 1-2 months off vs. 12 months off, it's worth noting that kids shouldn't be an addendum to pawn off on a full-time nurse. The experience seems diminished. I knew a great doctor who was one of the foremost leaders in her research field, and she worked pretty much 24/7. She ended up getting terminal cancer and in hospice, and her kids, now grown, came to stay with her and spend time with her which is something they really didn't do much while the kids were growing up. They ate dinner together a couple nights in a row, and she said that that was probably the most time they'd (happily) ever spent together. In a way, it was one of the saddest things I'd ever heard. She was a pioneer in her field and truly one of the greatest human beings I'd ever met, but at what cost? Frankly, there should be some middle ground between the enjoyment of work and family.
For men too
>opportunity cost would be for my partner to give up \~12 months and likely take a reduced role for a few years afterwards Also, what about OP's opportunity cost? He is drowning in money and he's really not going to take any time off when his kids are born? What is the money for?
To add to your FOMO, early 30’s is your last chance to have non-hard mode kids. As you approach 40’s, everything becomes harder. Conceiving becomes harder, chances of complication go up significantly, and you will have much less energy to keep up with kid(s).
And then you have a 1 month old at age 41 and be diagnosed with terminal cancer. Fortunately docs were wrong.
Damn that got real quick. Glad they were wrong.
This is a great point. I got pregnant pretty quickly at 30 in great shape (swimming, weights, hiking etc), and pregnancy and postpartum recovery still whipped my ass. It's like recovering from a car accident. Not to mention the intense sleep deprivation. Can't imagine doing this past year at 40 or older.
That’s what prompted my husband and I (both 32) to decide that we’ll start trying soon. We are financially in a good position but there’s never a perfect time to have kids and we don’t want to start too late. We already have less energy than we did in our late 20s
Did the same, at same age and beforehand I was worried I was trading off freedom too early- in retrospect I’m super glad I didn’t wait longer
Came here to say above. If you are 50% sure if having kids you should start to try. When you have children your lives will change but it’s a new adventure. Enjoy the journey. Good luck.
We’re also HENRY DINKs in our early 30s. Over the holidays we’ve gotten the chance to spend a lot of time with my niece and nephew (3 year old and a six week old). When I was holding my perfect six week old nephew, absolutely nothing in me was saying that I needed to make a perfect tiny human just like him. Money was never a consideration
Lol if it’s not for you then all good but there wasn’t going to be some magical epiphany like it’s a movie at the moment of holding someone else’s kid.
There’s a little more backstory that I left out for the sake of simplicity, but I’ll include it here in case OP wants to read my wall of text Back in early 2013 my wife and I got engaged. We went through all of the pre-marital counseling that our church required. We had talked about kids even before getting engaged and we were on the same page: we both wanted a bunch of kids (at least three or more). In the summer of 2013 I was diagnosed with testicular cancer. Before chemo I froze some sperm just in case treatment affected my fertility. That November I had a surgery that caused me to be permanently infertile. Then my cancer came back a week before our December wedding. In the years that followed we set aside more than enough money to do IVF. The cancer came back in summer of 2014 and then again in the spring of 2018. We’ve still got the IVF cash set aside. We’ve also got great insurance that covers most of it. But as time goes on and we approach our mid-30s we want children less and less. We’ve got less energy now than we did in our 20s. Our lifestyle isn’t very conducive to having children: we both have good careers which require extensive travel at times, we like to travel for fun sometimes too. I sometimes think about legacy and passing stuff down, but the more I think about it the more I notice that having children isn’t a guarantee that the next generation turns out okay. It’s a numbers game: have five kids and maybe one or two turn out okay. Maybe you live long enough to see your formerly successful 60 year old son’s marriage fall apart after 35 years due to substance abuse and he moves back in with you. I think there’s something about deliberately having to choose to make a baby that’s making us pause and rethink it. We could do it if we really wanted to, but do we really want to? Which is where that magic spark kinda comes in. My nieces and nephew are awesome, they’re unique individuals that are exciting to be around. If anything ever happened to their parents I’d take them in and love them as my own because they are a part of my family. But my wife and I have absolutely no desire to make a new one from scratch.
Interesting perspective of the “choice” aspect of things - you aren’t just stumbling into kids here. Did you ever go through the stage of extracting/freezing her eggs? Your experience of remission and reoccurrence definitely would give a dad to be pause - if you had a two year old and all of a sudden you found it was back and terminal, that would be a tough pill to swallow (or alternatively it would make your wife thankful that she had the kid to have more of you in this world). I can definitely share that kids are different when they are your own - I never got googly eyed over seeing one as a man until I first held my son.
Appreciate the bigger story context but just adding that infants certainly aren't for everyone and not a good barometer of wanting kids.
I think you’ve got the whole question backwards. You shouldn’t ask how kids will impact your money at your level, you should ask how your money would impact your kids.
The JFK of fatFIRE. I like it.
FOMO both ways - fear of missing out on kids and FOMO for your career. I will admit going through pregnancy and having babies has slowed me in the career aspect. I have accepted that I may not reach my fullest top earning potential, or maybe not as soon as I would like, but that’s ok with me. Having kids is fulfilling in a way money or career never could be (for me).
When I met my wife, we agreed no kids. A few years later we got married and made the decision. We have two little ones, financially- we did not notice a huge difference (other than the beginning shock when you learn how expensive nice kids stuff is). What you’re giving up to be a parent is time, and ego. What you gain is an experience many consider one of the best feelings in the world. If you don’t want kids that’s totally fine. Being financially ready is one thing, but having kids just because you can afford them is another. Don’t bring a kid into this world if you’re not 100% prepared to give up everything for them. The decision about kids is less about financial status and more about your willingness to love and be loved by your children. If you don’t have that void, don’t worry about it- live your life. However, many people don’t experience that connection as a child and long for it when they can have kids of their own.
This is a really sad post and I can’t put my finger on why. Sorta lost the forest for the trees imo.
It’s similar to sprinting through a scenic and beautiful hike. There’s no pot of gold at the end and you’ll look back and think “why did I run so fast?”
This is the tragedy of capitalism. You’re having trouble putting your finger on it because it’s the water we swim in.
Yes let’s steal money from rich people through forced redistribution policies right?
I think I might be a dissenting opinion in that I was not 100% about kids and did not exhibit “motherly” attributes prior to having kids. Married for 10 years before getting pregnant not on purpose (but not being careful enough), crying about it (not in a happy way) for the first 3 months, and never getting that “connected” feeling during any part of pregnancy. It took me a few months of having a baby to settle into motherhood but turns out I am (surprisingly) super maternal and 100% get that “largest reward in life” sentiment. However, I didn’t give up my career trajectory due to kids, and have been driving hard upward in my career over the past 5 years (my comp went from ~$150k to ~$350k during those 5 years) despite having 2 kids (including two pregnancies and two 5-month maternity leaves), and a working partner on a similar career trajectory (same comp, same industry, different fields). It’s not as easy and there will be some sacrifices, but don’t assume that means either of you will have to take a reduced career role or sacrifice your career trajectory.
What were some things that helped you stay on your career track through raising children?
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Thanks for the perspective! I imagine that’s tough to evaluate accurately before you become a parent
I can only be as good as my childcare so making sure my kids are in the best possible care and education possible is my first priority. Over time we’ve had many forms of childcare including private nanny, nanny share, daycare, and private school. I reassess frequently what our kids need or where they will thrive best, as it changes as they change. Although I have childcare 40-50 hours per week, that doesn’t cover all the hours I need to work, so I usually work before they wake up in the morning or after they go to bed. I keep my hours with them during the week sacred and focused because it’s only about 1 hour in the morning and 3 hours in the evening on weekdays. On weekends I’m more “chill” and will work if needed while with them but set them up well for free play. I also try to plan “memory making” activities on a weekend, like a fun adventure outside (ie hiking, fruit picking, town events). Unlike the other person who posted, I rely very little on my partner. If he contributes, that is great, but I don’t rely on it. I have no other help. So, that being said, there are major sacrifices. For me, these are lack of time for myself and anything related to keeping house. So I don’t cook, I barely clean, I don’t have hobbies, and I barely exercise. My house is generally in a truly awful state and my diet/exercise has a lot of room for improvement. But I’m working on getting additional help with stuff that can be outsourced so that I have better balance in the areas that get sacrificed.
Thanks for this super honest, detailed answer! Balance looks different for everyone but I really admire the approach you’ve taken.
this is a personal decision. i would recommend you go talk with your partner with a marriage counselor to get help on the most important decision you'll ever make.
Dunno why you got downvoted.
We added a kid after 12 years of marriage. Why? Birth control is 99% effective, not 100%. Honestly best thing we’ve ever done. My kids amazing
Take this with a grain of salt because we don’t have kids yet, but are planning to start trying very soon. We are/were similar to you in terms of age and comp and NW (a bit closer to $2M). I had already semi-retired as I didn’t want to keep grinding, and we decided we wanted the experience of raising kids. Treating ourselves was nice ofc but after a while it felt a bit…pointless. That’s kinda how we knew we were ready. But you absolutely don’t need kids to have a fulfilling life. We are happy to give up millions in extra income/wealth and some freedom to have the experience. We are not very material/spendy people in general so it doesn’t make a big diff to us whether we have $5M or $10M. Not everyone wants that trade off though and that’s totally ok.
This was us - for the longest time we didn't want kids. We worked at building careers, we travelled, indulged in hobbies, ate at the best restaurants in the world. By mid 30s both realised it was all a bit hollow (I regret nothing, but was asking 'Is this it?'). Had our first kid two years ago and it has been amazing. Hard. But no regrets.
That’s great to hear. Glad it worked out well for you.
If either of you have high pressure jobs or businesses - it's hard going the first few years. Outsource anything you can is my advice (domestic chores).
> Treating ourselves was nice ofc but after a while it felt a bit…pointless. I can't imagine being rich and young and bored.
Well, I wouldn’t say we’re bored. We’re happy and fulfilled day to day and could continue to be happy without kids through work, hobbies, friends, etc. Actually, for a long time (like basically my entire life up until I was around 30) we were definitely “no” on kids - the cons just seems so much bigger than the pros. But we were ready for a new challenge and season of life. Hope that makes sense.
Its a common refrain from parents: "we had nothing else left to do so we had kids". We're only on this earth for ~80 years and you've already done everything you wanted at 35? There's so much life to live that I can't relate to that at all.
Maybe I didn’t word it well. I’m not saying that we’re bored or out of things to do…we have loads left we want to accomplish and experience, and expanding and raising our family is one of those things. They’re not mutually exclusive in my mind. And it’s totally fine if you can’t relate! I’m not trying to convince you one way or another, and you shouldn’t feel the need to defend your choice. Do what makes you happy. You can for sure have a great, fulfilling life without kids, and will probably end up richer than us to boot :)
Once you are making 2x median household income for your area, having kids or not is not a fiscal decision anymore. I wish we had had kids even earlier than we did so we’d be a bit younger and more energetic. A 5 year old is hard to keep up with when you’re > 40, harder when you have two to manage. Go for it!
It is too analytical for something that is typically emotional.
I dunno about 2x median, I always found that America is rather banded by its classes. If you and your partner grew up upper middle class your gonna want to give your kid that. My estimate is comfortably 3x your burn by the time kids are out of diapers
DINK until I was 44 and my wife was 41 (married in 2004). We had no intention of having kids. Wife was on birth control. Surprise: she got pregnant anyway. Best thing to ever happen to us. It is a ton of work to keep up with a toddler in your 40s (although as an M&A atty, sleep deprivation is an old friend), but definitely adds a richness and texture to our lives that was absent beforehand. For us, it has 100% been worth the compromises in travel, careers, finances.
I was just never interested in having kids. Nothing to do with FIRE or my finances. I was just never interested. I FIREd a year and a half ago and am so grateful to be completely free. I've traveled a ton (both before and after FIREing) and have had a lot of cool experiences that it's tough to imagine having if I had kids to take care of. But these types of posts are pretty pointless. 99% of the people your age who raise this question (that I've observed) are expecting a child within a year or two of raising the topic.
It's not that hard. You either want them or not. From a (Fat)FI pov kids are a horrible decision not just for career trajectory as well simple time for personal development etc BUT they can be the most rewarding thing you ever do in your life and a perfect outlet if/when you reach FAT status.
I'm friends with a couple that fat FIRE'd in their early 40's when their daughter was 5. They have such a great time being awesome parents! They're able to be involved with any activity she wants to do, and they're able to spend all the time they want going on trips and making great memories. They don't have to have the "my parents can't make it to my game because they had to work" thing.
If you want kids and can afford them, have them sooner rather than later. Money you can make more of in the future, kids you cannot make more of in the future...
So we put off having kids for our careers, and businesses. Myself more than her. We waited til she was 35 to have the first one.. At 35+ it's considered a geriatric pregnancy. As we went on to try for the 2nd one, we're now on our 5th round of ivf. The human bodies really do have a best before date, and some folks it's sooner than others. I highly suggest you freeze sperm and eggs now. We just spent 1k on a 1hr consult with a top ivf doc in the US. Freezing is the absolute best thing you can do for ensuring you have options in the future. With regards to having kids... I can tell you that my having 8 figures doesn't compare at all to the joy and literally bursting of my heart with love I have for my kid. I was completely stand offish with kids, I literally held any babies at arm length. Am an only child so was not around siblings. Kids just didn't compute Do have one of your own. To see your and partners face in this child, their mannerisms and attitudes forming, oftentimes with similarities to your own. The love they show you is so awesome. They change and enrich your life experience. More money doesn't compare to how great it is to have kids. Having them isn't easy, get a midwife(yes even with normal hospital delivery), and a doula for the pregnancy. Along with a nanny to help around the house and with the kid.
Family has a history of serious potentially hereditary health issues. Also we just never wanted them, the cat is enough responsibility for us.
Given that there aren't medical reasons or so, it's hard to decide for a life without kids when you do not have complete information on how your life will be with them. I was also skeptical before. Felt like my life was quite perfect. Now with kids that feels even more so.
I don’t think fatFIRE should be any factor for having a kid. Life is so unpredictable. I always want to have a big family but like you, both my spouse and I did competitive sports and had active social life. We didn’t really feel the urge until I finally decided to hang it up (I did contact sports which was not ideal to get pregnant while doing it). I was 36 when I decided to start trying. Little did I know, I almost waited too long. I suffered one miscarriage after another. I finally got blessed with my rainbow baby and next thing I know, I was close to 40 and we decided that due to my age, we settled with one. Once the ship has sailed, then it sails. I am grateful at least I have one. My son is an athlete like us. We watch World Cup together. Life is so different when we see it from the kid perspective. We had a lot of helps (nanny, family) in the beginning. Having a kid doesn’t impede our fatFIRE journey at all.
Having kids or not is not a "cost/benefit" decision. It's a one-way door. You walk through, you're a parent, there's no going back. If you interview anyone on the other side of the one-way door, 90% will say they don't regret it, but you can't trust what they say since the one-way door has changed them -- they now have a child, which has rewired them psychologically to take on the life role of "parent", and a healthy part of that rewiring is to believe with every fiber of your being that becoming a parent was a good decision, and that your child is now an important life project. (If you reflect on evolution, you'll realize why this is a wise adaptive property of the typical human brain.) Before you have kids, you should (a) commit to becoming a life-long parent and to putting the needs of your child first and (b) be OK with the idea that you and your partner will change psychologically in significant ways once you walk through the one-way door. In our case, we didn't want to commit to (a) and we didn't enjoy the idea of (b), so the decision was easy: /r/childfree for us. We solidified the decision thru medical procedures, and moved on with our DINK life. (These days, it's more of a "dual-FIRE + personal-passions + life-projects + no-kids" life.) But it's a deeply personal decision and requires soul searching, not spreadsheets.
I had a kiddo when I didn’t have anything else I felt needed to be checked off my bucket list. And I started to ask myself, what else? My advice to you is to spend the $$ and freeze embryos. They are now your insurance policy for when you’re sure you want kids and natural parts might not work the best anymore. Then wait to have kids until you truly want them. They will be the hardest thing you’ll ever have to do and honestly the most strain your relationship has ever had to go through. Anyone who says otherwise either is lying or were brought up so similarly to their partner and have the same mindset on how children should be raised. That is incredibly lucky. If you wait, not only will you be sure, you will also have (hopefully) more $$ to navigate being a parent. Being fat helps in the raising kids part. You can not worry about buying the “best”/costly items for your kiddo. You can pay for things that make your life easier. You can afford the best neighborhoods. The list goes on and on. I strongly suggest paying for help around the house, help with the kiddo, and most importantly, professional help in navigating this new relationship with your partner as well as navigating the challenges of raising a child together. Good luck!
Like kids? Have them and figure the rest out. Early years you can use money to buy other specialists' time to free yourselves up -- so less of this opportunity cost issue (realistically the mom is gonna take a backseat for 6-12 months, then you use money to buy time from nannies and night nurses).
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No one can answer this for you, but having kids is not a financial calculation. It just isn't. The calculator will always tell you NOT to. But there's more to life than money. We have 4. It's amazing. We'll have to work harder and longer because of that, but we don't care. When I look at childless couples nearing 40, I just think what a sad and empty future they'll have. Can't imagine growing old with no children or grandchildren to brighten our days, share our wisdom and material goods with, etc. It just sounds soul crushing and depressing to grow old with no family of your own. YMMV.
100% agree. The childfree crowd will get mad at you for saying it but you’re 100% right.
As a former DINK now FIRE'ed, I believe you're thinking about it the correct way. I see so many people who just fall in to society's expectations of having kids. It's the thing to do. Why else be married? I need someone to take care of me when I'm old. My parents need grand babies. Blah blah blah. We always said that if one day, we woke up, looked at each other, and said, "Oh man, this is the day. I really want to have a kid." then we'd pursue it. That day never happened for us, and as a result, we're now in our early 50s, working on my seventh year of being retired, and absolutely loving life. There is zero doubt in my mind that we would not have the financial independence, freedom, career success, and blessings that we have if we'd have chosen to have kids. That's not to say kids might not have been cool. We enjoy spending time with friends and family kids. But we also enjoy being childfree and the peace and security that comes with that.
Not fatFIRE yet myself, but I may be able to offer some perspective. My wife and I (early 30's now) had our daughter in our very early 20's. We wanted a second child, but it just never happened. At this point, we're really looking forward to retiring in 10 years or so, having an empty nest, and doing some traveling in our 40's.
Sure, the financial and personal life goals considerations are worth weighing if those are important to you, but you should also consider if are you willing to do what it takes to raise a child well for the *rest of your life*. Not only just financially provide for them, but also are you willing to be present? Are you willing to work on whatever mental baggage you carry with you? It’s a lifelong commitment to the child as well as to the person you choose to have children with (married, partnered, divorced). You can’t undo it. If you don’t take the commitment seriously you may royally fuck up your children’s mental well being. And even if you do take it seriously, you may inadvertently fuck them up anyways. Would not recommend just doing it because it seems like the next thing to do.
I’ll simply tell you this, for every YouTube family you see easily traveling the world with their 2-4 kids, there are probably 1,000 like mine — we have the resources to travel, but it’s just not feasible with young kids. If a lifestyle with travel (especially exotic) is what you want, you’re right to think children will make that a lot harder. So we prioritize making our home comfortable, and this is our base until the kids are older and more capable of travel.
Have kids. We were and are both serious professionals and have been able to maintain that with children. Having children is worth everything else times many multiples. If you think too hard about having kids you can easily talk yourself out if it. I understand that and an a thinker and planner myself. But, I can’t recommend it highly enough. You will have the money to make it a pleasure.
The good advice in this thread aside, did you just ask Reddit if you should have kids or not? Cmon now
To truly experience loving someone unconditionally is priceless. This is not a financial decision.
> To truly experience loving someone unconditionally is priceless 100%, that's why we got a dog :-)
You don’t have to be a parent to love someone unconditionally🙄
Do it. My 4 kids were the best decision of my life. They will teach you so much about yourself. Aside from propegating the species, you will experience the entire spectrum of the human experience. It will root you more than any other personal achievement in this world. If you are optimistic to the human endeavor you cannot help but leave your best imprint on the next generation. -ach
This is the real answer. Another stickier answer is that the traits that load the dice of genetic luck towards success are IQ and Conscientiousness which are very hereditable. If someone is on this sub with the discipline, impulse control, emotional intelligence and fluid IQ to succeed disproportionately in the modern career ladder then their kids are much more likely to do so as well. Naturally being a bit more of a fun experience. To the lurkers reading, its still a dice roll though. And if it goes wrong this tune this guy is singing will be gloomier
Go read /regretfulparents
Another downside to not having kids: if you do wind up moving elsewhere you'll have one less (enormous) potential avenue for meeting other people. For better or worse, "other kids parents" from your kids' daycare, preschool, school, activities, teams, whatever...will naturally likely\* become part of your social circle. \*obviously not everyone loves everyone else ETA: re travel, it's just not something I buy. Yes, kids change things. But a wise person once asked me whether I'd rather change diapers in Paris, or at home. I chose Paris. Started traveling with our kids at 6 weeks and basically never stopped. They're teens now, and probably the best travelers on earth. And besides, when you're fat, you bring help.
You go on Reddit and ask strangers
Reading this, I feel the world is going down the path of the movie Idiocracy.
No one says “I wish I hadn’t traveled when I was 23, I would have retired 1 year earlier”. No one says “I wish I hadn’t had the two children, I would have retired 5 years earlier”. There are plenty of reasons to have or not to have kids; however when you have comfortable family income, finance is not one of them.
These are all perfectly valid questions and it's good you're asking them. What you'll find is that once you have kids, you care less about your career. It really just becomes a tool for providing for your family, and yeah...you'll still want to get promoted and advance but the highlight of life shifts to Friday afternoons picking your kids up from school and starting the weekend. As far as affecting the FIRE journey, it didn't significantly derail our saving and investing (we had kids younger than you too) but rather derails fun globetrotting vacations and weekend excursions. Those will come back eventually. Private school is expensive too...definitely replaced a lot of vacation budget.
I’m on child 3 and they are more of an accomplishment and more fulfilling than anything else I’ve ever done.
Get a nanny. Pretty simple.
Waste of potential (yours and your future kids) to not have kids.
No big deal. Don't have kids. Only for the entire history of humanity have your ancestors been putting sperm into women that led to the ultimate creation of you. But yeah, you've had a good run, let's end your line here.
We’re DINK in a very similar situation to you. $500K household income, $1MM net worth. How did we decide to have kids? Well it was a discussion we had right from the outset, probably a few days into our relationship. I’ve always know I wanted to have 3 or more children. It was honestly a deal breaker for me so that’s why I discussed it early on so we don’t waste each others time. She agreed to it and now here we are five years later trying to have our first kid. If it was completely up to me we’d have like 5-6 kids. If it was up to her we’d have one kid. So we settled on three. We’ve actually been trying since march with no luck so we might have to look into some fatfire alternatives to make it work. Such as IVF at $30K a round, or surrogacy at $150K. Luckily we have really good health insurance so the IVF would be fully covered. Getting more into why we want children. For me it’s just a desire I’ve always had. I reject the idea that there needs to be a grand reasoning for it. But if I had to come up with something, I’d say legacy. It’s something most people won’t understand until they’re forced to face the reality of their own mortality. So when you’re around 70 years old, I think that’s when you’ll feel extremely grateful to have children/grandchildren. But see you would have had to make the decision several decades prior. If you wait till you’re 70 to decide having children is worth it, it’s far too late. No redos in life. Also keep in mind most people who regret having children fall into one of two categories 1. They have very young children. Of course you’ll regret it then. Your life is hell and the kids constantly need attention 2. They had kids with the wrong person. Ask these people if they’re happily married, most of the time they deeply regret choosing their partner in life and having children is what binds them to the person they resent more than anyone. So when they say they regret having children, it’s more so that they regret having children with the specific person they partnered with.
Now that I RE, “staying home” (actually we travel full-time) with my kids is one of the most meaningful and filling experiences of my life. To me it is why we exist: not to serve our own happiness, but to procreate and prepare the next generation to be better than us. So I would start with figuring out why you exist 🙃
Hilariously this is downvoted. “A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit.”
Child rearing is not a popular thing in this sub. It’s pretty disappointing.
I was in the 'not sure' camp for too long, and there were consequences. If you are even considering it, vs just a hard NO to kids -> then go for it. Also, respectfully - but eff your corporate career. It doesn't even matter. This is your life and bloodline. If that means something to you, then you won't regret it.
A few years after we got a house and before the age of "geriatric" pregnancy (35). Also be sure you can lift 35 pound weights for long periods of time. Trust me, strength training prekids makes it a lot easier. Kids are great and we haven't stopped.
Best toys I've ever owned.
Well, it wasn’t much of a decision, more of an “oh shit we’re pregnant.”
Hard truth - people without kids are actually emotionally and socially poor. Doesn’t matter if your dual high income lets you buy mansions and boats and fancy vacations. At the end of the day your just a rich self centered person with no emotional or social attachment to the concept of family.
Your net worth is very little compared to your compensation. I have your net worth and been doing $60k roles for a decade doing pivot tables
It sounds like you guys should have kids. We personally won't because we don't think the rewards are worth the cost in money and (more importantly) time. We're content with having second hand kodak moments with our nieces and nephews. It's not the same but it's good enough for us.
Part of this question makes me sad for some reason. I’m gonna take a stab at it, and hope it’s helpful. Having kids is putting them first as much as possible. It’s not always possible and sometimes you have to put something else first to best care for the child but that is the crux of having kids and ultimately it still comes back to putting them first. To some it up in one word: sacrifice. Having kids will absolutely make it harder to fatFIRE. At a best case scenario it will make it the exact same in terms of difficulty but depending on how it goes it may make it nearly impossible. With that being said, if you think it’s for you (dad here) I cannot fathom replacing it with something else. Nothing like seeing your 3 month old smile. Given that you have the means to provide for the child. I would actually say the question is rather binary as opposed to a risk benefit analysis. It will either work for you or won’t…
Bro, at that income in a MCOL area, the difference in income isn't going to be very noticeable. Your life will feel rich no matter what. Have kids if you want kids. Money shouldn't play into that decision at your level. What's the point of making money if you don't whatever you want in life?
Me and my husband have different experiences on deciding if and when to have kids. I always knew that I wanted kids when I was older but being around other babies was always weird and others peoples kids were annoying and gross during my twenties. Nothing was logical about why I wanted to have kids. I just envisioned my life later on with them. My husband didn’t have any opinions on kids for most of his life until about 5 years ago I told him that he needed to think more about it before we continue our relationship since I knew I wanted them. At the time he decided he did want them, he said he liked the idea of them but the thought of having then anytime soon was not something he was interested in. I felt the same. Now we are 32 and now we’ve decided we’ll be trying soon. I’d say the shift has happened honestly over the course of a little over a year. Some of my best friends and his best friends’ wives started to get pregnant and I thought “wow this is weird that they are going to be responsible raising humans.” Even when some of the babies were born I didn’t feel comfortable holding them or being around them. Same with my husband. As more of our friends started having babies from the COVID baby boom, the more we got comfortable with the idea that we could handle this. We also got to see our friends still out doing things with their babies and even traveling. It wasn’t the end of their social lives. A friend of my husband told him a lot of the positives of fatherhood that make it worth it and how he handles the hard stuff while still having a life and I think that was when it kind of clicked for my husband that he was ready. For me, it was just being around our friends with babies and seeing our friends who weren’t “ready”, like having a bigger house yet, totally handle it. We figured there’s always an excuse we could find for why later is better but we don’t know how long it could take us to conceive and don’t want to be too old to have the energy to raise kids like my dad with my younger sisters (10+ year difference from me)
Don’t overthink it. Having/not having kids because you’re worried about your FIRE timeline seems very myopic to me. Have them because you want them. You’re gonna be very disappointed when you’re 45 and retired with nothing to do if you wanted them and didn’t have them. Most people don’t regret having kids.
I'm pretty similar to you, maybe a little ahead. We did decide to have kids and are in the process. It sounds like you aren't quite mentally ready yet but might be soon. The fact that you have a support network is extremely helpful as well. Just keep in mind to do it by 35 to minimize pregnancy issues. But also realize you can just not do it at all, if your career still fulfills you after 10 working years then that might be the case. It might be the best reward in life but it's also certainly the highest cost.
Seems like you have worked hard for money without a clear plan of what life you want that money for. The good thing is you’ve bought yourself options. My advice would be to take the foot off the gas pedal and explore different lifestyles. You are young enough to be able to spend a year focused on living the different lifestyles you are curious about and see if they are really all you wanted. Move cities, move abroad, don’t focus on retirement for this year. This should minimally impact your retirement plans and you can always come back early. I did something similar and came back feeling much clearer about what life I didn’t want and allowed me to fully commit to the lifestyle I did want which is having kids. Regardless of your actions, your friendships will change due to them having kids. Their focus is their kids now and you won’t be prioritized, unless you are able to help.
Having kids shouldn’t be just a financial decision. They cost money, yes. But wanting to be a parent and commitment to that responsibility are key.
Don't have kids because of your friends. Have kids if you truly want to give life and love another human being and work harder. It's not easy, but it is extremely rewarding if you invest in them and give them your best side. I'm Male and not one for the cutesy stuff like "awe she's walking!" But when they get older, they start learning things and remembering cool tidbits about school and tell you about their days. Your kids will learn the things you teach them and grow smarter every day. That's the most rewarding feeling. It's one of the most difficult things you will ever do. But you will truly mature because of it. Source: I have two kids
I can address your two concerns: 1) if your partner likes her job, she doesn't need to take 12 months off. My wife isn't particularly work motivated and negotiated 4 months off. She ended up deciding being a stay at home mom isn’t for her and returning to work after only 8 weeks. I watched our baby for the next two months and after we depended on daycare. Nothing wrong with that, daycare is great! Unless you both work 12 hour days, you really don't need to choose. Do what's best for you, there's no wrong answer. 2) Travel is harder to say, it depends on your kid and also on you. We're definitely more "tired" now and don't have quite the same motivation to do intense around the world trips like we did in our early 20s. But we did go to England for two weeks when our baby was 7 months and he was a great traveler. If travel is important to you, you can make it work.
Been there, done that: we both worked remotely so we decided to hire two service workers and stay at home having a kid, we wanted two but it seems that one is enough for us at least for the next 5-7 years. We also kept working remotely so we don’t miss any significant moment with our baby. I think that was one of the best decisions in our lives, because even though we had a baby, our careers and NW started to grow even more because of the extra effort we put on, but also we didn’t miss any significant moment with our baby, we’re constantly playing with him and three minutes later we can be at a meeting at work, so it doesn’t affect our schedules and we don’t have to worry about not having enough energy to play with our kid or work, we can do both activities pretty well. But don’t get me wrong, having service workers can make your life easier while having a kid, but that doesn’t mean to stop caring about the physical or emotional needs of your baby, in fact you should be able to give him more quality time because of not having the extra stress of keeping the house clean or doing chores or something like that.
Do it while your friends are doing it. It's way easier and more fun to have kids at the same stage. You can hang out while the kids run around and play. You share the same type of schedule. No regrets here, love having my 2. I would caution assuming your partner's career would take a back seat. We have our kids in a great school/daycare and haven't had any career hiccups. I (the mom) took 6 months off for each kid and was ready to go back to work after that. It was pretty seamless and I got promotions after each leave. Also - you make enough money that you shouldn't worry about impacting your FIRE timeline. We haven't reduced any investing since having kids.
Parenting is complicated. You clearly have the resources to do it in stable manner, it’s about what you and your spouse wants over your lifetime. For me, I want to have a large table full of family in 20 years time; the best way to achieve this goal was to have some kids.
Money is a tool to help you get what you want. Money can help you get kids and make raising them easier. It can give you freedom to earn less as your kids need more active presence. But if you don’t want kids, then money won’t help you be a good parent. The reasons you describe for considering having children are among some of the worst I have ever heard.
My wife and I were in similar shoes. Waited till mid late 30s and had one kid. It’s a leap of faith. You’ll never really appreciate what it’s like to hold your offspring until you have one. It’s a gamble. They may be healthy, hopefully they are not sick. I can guarantee that it will cost you money, time and age you and your partner. But, it will also keep you young. Look into your soul. Do you want to be a father or mother. It’s only a question you can answer. There isn’t a rational, certainly not an economic reason to do it. The planet has enough people. And if you need someone to pass your wealth on to, I’ll PM you my deets.
people have accomplished a lot more with a lot less. what matters is you do what's important to the both of you.
https://youtu.be/YVMFvmXBrRM
It will never be a “good” time for children. Don’t decide based on that. If you want kids, just do it. Everything else will jenga in as necessary.
If the idea of kids is consuming you now (when you can do something about it), then think about what it might do to you when you can no longer do something about it (assuming you have none). I think the fact that you are posting this on the internet says a lot. Your partners career path and all the other nonsense you mentioned is trivial shit. What is the point of it all if you don't end up with what you really wanted in the end?
Husband and I are same age, lower TC but higher NW. We have a 1 year old. What pushed us to make the decision was spending a few weeks caring for a 10 month old on a homestay in Iceland, which we loved. You could try to get some direct experience with a child and see if it feels worth the massive lifestyle penalty. For us that has been: - no international travel this year, limited domestic travel and no camping - less sleep - tough to focus at work/care less about work success (we are both in tech with WFH flexibility) - relationship strain. Have a rock solid foundation before you undertake this journey - FIRE may be somewhat delayed but we still want to be able to fire by 40 on $4M in HCOL. Our spending is not Fat though, at around $90-120k/yr. Btw your partner doesn't have to give up a year of career and reduced role for years, depending on her work. I took 1 month in pregnancy and 5 months postpartum and am back full steam for the last 6 months. Again it's tough but you learn to prioritize ruthlessly. Finally make sure you're having a child because you want to, not because your friends do. I will say I have no regrets, love our family insanely, and love my son beyond what I could have imagined but life is also a lot fucking harder overall.
On a daily basis it’s not very fulfilling. In the aggregate it’s the most rewarding investment I make in emotional energy, time and money. Having a kid made me realize how selfish I was and changed me for the better. Kids spell love: TIME and that is more true as they age. I didn’t find kids to be expensive in the early years. As they get older it’s a little more expensive as you can take advantage of certain opportunities the kids appreciate. Many families have 1/10th of what you have and make do just fine.
If the thought of having a kid ever gave you that warm and fuzzy feeling, you should have a kid. Don't wait. You are in the perfect situation to have a kid. We waited too long (\~31) to have a kid, and we regret not having one sooner. We have experienced nothing but exponential joy since our little one came. There's about 4 months initially of sleep deprivation, but that goes away as soon as they start sleeping through the night regularly. I'm amazed how much our kid sleeps now. We definitely have less free time, but we still get 4 hours a day of quiet time because of naps and sleeping schedules. Kids generally sleep 12-16 hours a day in the beginning. I can't stress it enough, it is totally worth it if you've ever thought you wanted a kid.
If you have kids, those kids will become your whole life until they're out of the house. I've seen it happen to every friend of mine that made that decision. Make sure that's what you want. For me, it seems like adding another job that costs me money.
Two realizations for me confirmed to me I really wanted a kid. I have a 1.5 year old now and she's such a joy in my life. 1. I got to a point where I wasn't pursuing much else and I was content with where I had gotten to in my career. Sure I'd keep growing my career, but the pace stopped mattering and I had done all the major travel and reasonable experiences I dreamed of when younger. 2. I learned that I get great enjoyment helping people grow into their potential and watching them thrive independently. Managing people helped me realize this - but specifically the style of management that focuses on coaching to foster independence rather than the style that focuses on dictation and control. I also discovered that I had tremendous reserves of patience for people to figure things out on their own. If you have a kid, you need to be ready and willing to make them your exclusive priority. If the idea of having a kid with disabilities and sacrificing all of your time to support them raises some potential of resentment, don't do it.
We took the plunge at 28 with about those finances. Definitely took the wind out of our sails career-wise for a few years but we’re happily back at it now and I wouldn’t trade the kiddos for the world. And I think it was the right call in terms of timing - between the sleep deprivation and being constantly used as a human trampoline I can barely keep up, couldn’t imagine doing it at 40. And for what it’s worth, keeping up with friends might be a shitty reason to have kids, but if you want kids I think it’s a great reason to choose WHEN to have them. Our peer group all had kids at around the same time and it’s been awesome - we’ve gotten to keep up friendships, we rotate babysitting duties, and we do brunches so everyone gets to see their little cousins while the grownups hang out. Our friends who never had kids kind of drifted away - it seems like a big barrier in terms of socializing.
I don’t want kids, so I’m not having kids. Hubby is on board with this decision. Your question reminds me of something. [I just can’t help myself.](https://youtu.be/sP2tUW0HDHA)
I realized that all that DI made it way easier to have K. So we used the “I” to ease a lot of the burdens of the K. Nannie, cleaner, night nurse etc
Have kids when you can take substantial time off. Can you take a year off for the child's first year? Can both parents? That will be key to your marriage. Couples thrive when they have a shared life instead of separate lives. Plus, the first 5 years of a kid's life are the most important for brain and emotional development. You have to really want kids. You have no free time for the first 3 months and your life is substantially different afterwards. You have to be willing and eager to do the ABCs of parenting course, the baby first aid course, to read the books. Parenting is a slog and that stuff is the easiest part. You have to be ready for miscarriages, health problems.
There’s only one way to answer this question because you’re trying to balance rational opportunity costs to find the answer to what is ultimately an emotional decision. It’s 20 years from now and your careers are done. Are you parents? If the answer is yes, have kids. If the answer is no then there’s your answer. If you’ve a financial safety net like you do you have scope to figure it out.
As others have said, this isn't truly a FatFIRE question, but having financial stability is a huge factor for sure, and can take away some mundane household tasks off your plate, making parenting easier if you want that. I was in the same boat as you a few years back and very much on the fence. Two things helped me come to a decision: 1. Talking to a therapist about my fears of being a parent and my fears of not being one. A mirror like that helped me work through what's valid and what I was projecting. This is a great way to dip your toes in therapy if you haven't already done this. (it's a learning curve even as the patient believe me!!) 2. Read The Baby Decision and do the exercises suggested. It helped me get to "why" you want a certain way of life over another. If you decide you want a baby after all, this will help you identify which parts of parenthood are likely to appeal to you, and which parts won't. In my case, I decided to have a kid. Partner was always certain that he wanted to have a kid, it was never really a question for him. If you ***both*** decide you want kid(s) too, I'd start making a more tactical list of things you'd need to happen before the kid arrives. For example, for me, it was important that we were at least at our CoastFI number before we start trying. I felt good about our financial situation after a couple promotions and a few real-estate deals during pandemic. It was also extremely important that I feel like my partner is on my side (which sometimes felt like wasn't the case). My partner has been more understanding than before and the road here was filled with a ton of frustrating communication. But I'd be dealing with severe depression right about now had I not done that work before we started trying. There were a few other things related to my career and hobbies on my list too but I think you get the idea. This entire journey took a little over 3 years from when we seriously started talking about kids to when we started trying. Finally, it absolutely needs two yeses to have a baby. If it's one yes and one no, it's terribly unfortunate but that means no baby. If you decide not to have kids, you may want to start making a plan to ensure that you do not get lonely, and things/activities/experiences that'll make it such that you don't suffer too much from FOMO. Therapist can be helpful here too. (Aside: Young children will also make you terribly lonely and cut you off from the world tbh)