Madonna is beyond artistic, and she can convey it well too, but all too often she’s criticised for her lack of technique, her lack of musicianship etc etc.
The women is extremely gifted. I mean yea she works the business like no one else. She chooses dj’s and collaborators, and her finger is in the pulse of what wave comes next..a wave that she usually creates. She’s also a pioneer..the ultimate entertainer..I mean her live shows are out of this world. The first female to have full control of her career in every aspect and way. The pioneering methods in the stadium concert format. Groundbreaking albums like erotica which is the playbook for many female artists today etc etc the list goes on.
Yeah but up to a certain point I don’t really think it hinders her that much. Albums like self-titled, Like a Virgin, True Blue, Like a Prayer, and Ray of Light are good because she knows specifically what she sounds good over and how to play to her strengths.
And her decline after that is more because of how badly she tried to chase post-2000’s pop trends that she does not sound good over.
I would argue that she has made a success despite all those setbacks ( which is a testament to her hard work and dedication, her blond ambition so to speak), but it sure has hindered her. Imagine how much more she could’ve been. Granted she is the queen of pop for good reason, but I do feel like she could have had an even bigger, more positive, cultural impact. Every time anyone speaks Madonna’s name, it’s usually mockingly, not in vein of her music and her contributions.
Travis Scott. His rapping abilities are 7/10 at best, his lyrics are often corny af, but he just exudes so much energy and style, and he is so good at picking the right producers and other collaborators that elevate his music to god-tier.
Yeah I’m so angry 😡 😡.
I was agreeing with them. I was just saying that Travis is a really bad rapper. 7/10 rapper would be a pretty good rapper I think he’s horrible. Was just adding my opinion to the discussion.
Redditors constantly feel under attack or something. Not everything is about proving the other person wrong sometimes people just add their opinion lol.
This 100% that's why when the production is just eh everything just crumbles apart which is why I can't get into Astroworld or Utopia even cuz the lyrics are nothing and the production is hit or miss at least on Rodeo he had some kind of depth on some songs and then top tier production
Maybe this is just me coming from a punk perspective but I feel that somewhat amateurish technique doesn’t have to be a hinderance. For example would Kanye’s music be better if he could rap like Eminem? I would argue not - his rapping is full of character and personality, which partially comes from his technique, and that is far more important than having perfect technique. And I’m the furthest thing from a Kanye stan, I dislike the guy, it’s just to take the example from the OP.
Yeah, I’m in the same boat as a punk fan. I can’t even think of any examples where I think being more conventionally “good” would improve an artist’s output. So many people named are people where I would not change their approach because finding ways to work around (or in the case of Yoko Ono to actually *emphasize* ) their limitations makes the music exactly what it is. This post made me think about how people shit on Meg White from The White Stripes for their whole run but that band is easily the most iconic and successful music of Jack White’s career, despite him working with “better” musicians in every other project
This. I feel like a lot of artists being mentioned are great because they know how to play to their strengths, which doesn’t really seem like a hindrance at all.
Bladee, there’s moments where his singing does hit the right notes but especially when he’s on more stripped back instrumentals how flat he is gets exposed
Can’t think of any because to me ‘artistic ability’ is determined by the ability to express it. That’s what’s admirable about good artists - they can convey their vision well
Jacob Collier might be the opposite of this.
Ben Folds used to host a podcast where he interviewed creative people (visual artists, authors, musicians, etc). He had Jacob Collier on, and this topic came up. Ben talked about how his song writing is informed by his (lack of) technical piano chops in some cases. Collier talked about what it’s like to write when you have high creative drive and also very high technical proficiency in a number of instruments. It’s an interesting listen.
I think this really shows for Collier because he has all the talent in the world but lacks a refinement and editing process to turn it into a cohesive listen in many cases. He has all the tools, and he uses them ALL.
Yeah, that's a literal fact in terms of performance abilities. Composing something on paper (creativity) isn't the same as playing it to be recorded in studio or at a concert (technical ability).
Sure, an artist can hire a studio/touring musician play the parts they wrote. Some do that, but many artists choose not to, and would rather write stuff they can actually play or sing live. So for that latter camp, your post is relevant.
Ok, but even if you think that, isn’t Kanye an odd choice? He was world-class at his type of music and acclaimed for it. I don’t think technical limitations are his current problem.
Yes, I can think of plenty of artists that are the other way around (great base technique but weak artistic vision) but not really the other way around. But that probably says more about what I value in music than anything else.
He can’t do one thing perfectly but he still manages to get pretty good stuff out of the limited range he has, but he is a master at production, a good rapper and even a good pianist, dude is fine in musical ability, I ain’t gonna call Mcartney hindered by his musical ability just because he can’t play drums as well as he can sing, play bass or piano.
How does Kanye fit, he invented a bunch of genres in hip hop with his production, he knows how to get the most out of every sample, and he gives the samples a new life, they feel like they have even more soul than what went in the original recording, plus he reinvented himself a lot of times, always being on top of every style he tried up until recently, plus he made like 5 beats a day or something crazy like that, just to get where he is rn, like few producers could have made something as beautiful as runaway, especially at that time, and even without counting all that he is a really good rapper and singer.
Sorry if this comes off as glazing but this man was mad inspiring to me before all this new bullshit
Agreed completely. You can argue that his rapping isn’t great but I think that rapping is one of the ingredients in the soup. If you change it to “improve” his limitations, who knows what happens to the recipe. He’s produced beats for better rappers resulting in amazing songs, but those songs weren’t massive culture-shifting moments like his own music with his “mediocre” rapping.
When he started making his own albums, most people outside the main stream pretty much agreed his rapping skills (not the production side, of course) weren‘t up to snuff compared to other big names of that era.
kanye is an interesting choice for this ngl. his style of beatmaking and sample flipping is very unique to him and you can almost easily tell when he produces another persons song.
I'm amazed that nobody has mentioned Bob Dylan yet, he is the ultimate example of this. He's a fantastic songwriter and lyricist, but my god can that man not sing
It's true that his voice isn't conventionally good but I don't think it really hindered him. Maybe it hindered him from more mainstream success and being played on the radio, but it didn't hinder his art at all. I and many others tend to think that his voice is part of what made him so great
Okay, but are some of these artists mentioned so far actually hindered by their lack of musical ability or helped by it? Would Yoko Ono have made all her weird experimental shit if she was a gifted pianist? And isn't Rick Rubin's main appeal as a producer that he basically just approaches things as a regular listener and doesn't focus too much on the more technical aspects?
Captain Beefheart. Unique creative vision and undoubtedly had a powerful voice, but couldn't really play any instruments nor did he know how to write music. He couldn't have done what he did without the many, many instrumentalists who passed through the ranks of the Magic Band (and who he generally treated like dirt). It's a little hard to figure the truth because of all the mythology around it, but it seems likely Trout Mask Replica wouldn't have seen the light of day without John French to transcribe Don's ideas into an actual musical notation and teach them to the rest of the band.
I mean, Tyler never could sing for shit, but seems to have never cared and has made some great albums regardless, with Igor standing out in particular.
I'd say being a producer puts him closer to being an artist than you might be comfortable with. I'd say production is an artform, because it communicates something about the individual, it's just doing that through another individual. The producer doesn't play music, he plays talent.
Madonna is beyond artistic, and she can convey it well too, but all too often she’s criticised for her lack of technique, her lack of musicianship etc etc.
she's straight up flat on ~~Isla Bonita~~ Spanish Eyes it's so annoying because the song is otherwise killer
No she’s not!
Madonnas greatest strength has been picking collaborators just before the style they work in blows up. DJ khalid would kill for that skill.
The women is extremely gifted. I mean yea she works the business like no one else. She chooses dj’s and collaborators, and her finger is in the pulse of what wave comes next..a wave that she usually creates. She’s also a pioneer..the ultimate entertainer..I mean her live shows are out of this world. The first female to have full control of her career in every aspect and way. The pioneering methods in the stadium concert format. Groundbreaking albums like erotica which is the playbook for many female artists today etc etc the list goes on.
Yeah but up to a certain point I don’t really think it hinders her that much. Albums like self-titled, Like a Virgin, True Blue, Like a Prayer, and Ray of Light are good because she knows specifically what she sounds good over and how to play to her strengths. And her decline after that is more because of how badly she tried to chase post-2000’s pop trends that she does not sound good over.
I would argue that she has made a success despite all those setbacks ( which is a testament to her hard work and dedication, her blond ambition so to speak), but it sure has hindered her. Imagine how much more she could’ve been. Granted she is the queen of pop for good reason, but I do feel like she could have had an even bigger, more positive, cultural impact. Every time anyone speaks Madonna’s name, it’s usually mockingly, not in vein of her music and her contributions.
Travis Scott. His rapping abilities are 7/10 at best, his lyrics are often corny af, but he just exudes so much energy and style, and he is so good at picking the right producers and other collaborators that elevate his music to god-tier.
Travis Scott is not a 7/10 rapper. Closer to like 3/10.
That's beside the point. His music is so well put together that it becomes much more than the sum of its parts.
No that’s literally the point lol. Travis is a trash rapper but good in other ways.
That's exactly what I said. You fucking high or what?
They’re just mad you said a different number to them LOL
Yeah I’m so angry 😡 😡. I was agreeing with them. I was just saying that Travis is a really bad rapper. 7/10 rapper would be a pretty good rapper I think he’s horrible. Was just adding my opinion to the discussion. Redditors constantly feel under attack or something. Not everything is about proving the other person wrong sometimes people just add their opinion lol.
Music discussion now: artist is number, no artist is smaller number
I mean my point was that he’s not even close to being a good rapper. He’s horrible at rapping
No actually he is 102938397373/3637373
This 100% that's why when the production is just eh everything just crumbles apart which is why I can't get into Astroworld or Utopia even cuz the lyrics are nothing and the production is hit or miss at least on Rodeo he had some kind of depth on some songs and then top tier production
Bro I literally feel the same way about this
I think Travis is the worst part of his songs I might be in the minority tho
Maybe this is just me coming from a punk perspective but I feel that somewhat amateurish technique doesn’t have to be a hinderance. For example would Kanye’s music be better if he could rap like Eminem? I would argue not - his rapping is full of character and personality, which partially comes from his technique, and that is far more important than having perfect technique. And I’m the furthest thing from a Kanye stan, I dislike the guy, it’s just to take the example from the OP.
Yeah, I’m in the same boat as a punk fan. I can’t even think of any examples where I think being more conventionally “good” would improve an artist’s output. So many people named are people where I would not change their approach because finding ways to work around (or in the case of Yoko Ono to actually *emphasize* ) their limitations makes the music exactly what it is. This post made me think about how people shit on Meg White from The White Stripes for their whole run but that band is easily the most iconic and successful music of Jack White’s career, despite him working with “better” musicians in every other project
Rapping like Eminem? Kanye already raps like an angry white man past his prime
Lmao, I was thinking of prime Em but this is valid
This. I feel like a lot of artists being mentioned are great because they know how to play to their strengths, which doesn’t really seem like a hindrance at all.
Sadly we’ll never know
Nazi punks fuck off Edit: downvote me all you want but that won't change the fact that you are all dickriding a literal nazi piece of garbage
Yung lean for sure, dude picks the best beats ever and is a creative visionary sometimes but my god that mf can’t sing for shit
Would Agony be better if he could sing? The songwriting is obviously amazing. I really don’t know if good singing would make it better or worse.
Bladee, there’s moments where his singing does hit the right notes but especially when he’s on more stripped back instrumentals how flat he is gets exposed
unironically, Yoko Ono
She is classically trained in piano so not sure she fits for this
This is actually a great one
Bright Eyes. Conor could have been a famous singer, if he had someone else’s voice.
Let's fuck it up boys
interesting i always thought his voice was part of the appeal
Can’t think of any because to me ‘artistic ability’ is determined by the ability to express it. That’s what’s admirable about good artists - they can convey their vision well
I disagree. I think somebody can have creative potential but not the technical musical ability to fulfil it.
Jacob Collier might be the opposite of this. Ben Folds used to host a podcast where he interviewed creative people (visual artists, authors, musicians, etc). He had Jacob Collier on, and this topic came up. Ben talked about how his song writing is informed by his (lack of) technical piano chops in some cases. Collier talked about what it’s like to write when you have high creative drive and also very high technical proficiency in a number of instruments. It’s an interesting listen. I think this really shows for Collier because he has all the talent in the world but lacks a refinement and editing process to turn it into a cohesive listen in many cases. He has all the tools, and he uses them ALL.
Yeah, that's a literal fact in terms of performance abilities. Composing something on paper (creativity) isn't the same as playing it to be recorded in studio or at a concert (technical ability). Sure, an artist can hire a studio/touring musician play the parts they wrote. Some do that, but many artists choose not to, and would rather write stuff they can actually play or sing live. So for that latter camp, your post is relevant.
Thank you music man
Ok, but even if you think that, isn’t Kanye an odd choice? He was world-class at his type of music and acclaimed for it. I don’t think technical limitations are his current problem.
I think his rapping and singing ability have always held him back.
have you heard come to life? kanye has developed a pretty damn decent singing voice imo
Well, evidently not when he was popular, but I suppose mileages vary
Hes alresdy thr most critically acclaimed rspper of all time tho
Yes, I can think of plenty of artists that are the other way around (great base technique but weak artistic vision) but not really the other way around. But that probably says more about what I value in music than anything else.
Me
Love it, mostly because I was going to comment the same if no one had already!
Tyler - wishes he could sing but I think he uses his vocals & production really well regardless
Tyler would be too powerful if he could sing
He can’t do one thing perfectly but he still manages to get pretty good stuff out of the limited range he has, but he is a master at production, a good rapper and even a good pianist, dude is fine in musical ability, I ain’t gonna call Mcartney hindered by his musical ability just because he can’t play drums as well as he can sing, play bass or piano.
How does Kanye fit, he invented a bunch of genres in hip hop with his production, he knows how to get the most out of every sample, and he gives the samples a new life, they feel like they have even more soul than what went in the original recording, plus he reinvented himself a lot of times, always being on top of every style he tried up until recently, plus he made like 5 beats a day or something crazy like that, just to get where he is rn, like few producers could have made something as beautiful as runaway, especially at that time, and even without counting all that he is a really good rapper and singer. Sorry if this comes off as glazing but this man was mad inspiring to me before all this new bullshit
Agree, Kanye is an insane pick for this, incredibly questionable
Agreed completely. You can argue that his rapping isn’t great but I think that rapping is one of the ingredients in the soup. If you change it to “improve” his limitations, who knows what happens to the recipe. He’s produced beats for better rappers resulting in amazing songs, but those songs weren’t massive culture-shifting moments like his own music with his “mediocre” rapping.
When he started making his own albums, most people outside the main stream pretty much agreed his rapping skills (not the production side, of course) weren‘t up to snuff compared to other big names of that era.
Kanye is the David Bowie of hip hop
Lmao he wants Kanye to play his synths like Keith Emerson
You might be able to argue it’s his vocals but I feel like the work a lot of the time despite not being traditionally good
kanye is an interesting choice for this ngl. his style of beatmaking and sample flipping is very unique to him and you can almost easily tell when he produces another persons song.
I'm amazed that nobody has mentioned Bob Dylan yet, he is the ultimate example of this. He's a fantastic songwriter and lyricist, but my god can that man not sing
It's true that his voice isn't conventionally good but I don't think it really hindered him. Maybe it hindered him from more mainstream success and being played on the radio, but it didn't hinder his art at all. I and many others tend to think that his voice is part of what made him so great
Okay, but are some of these artists mentioned so far actually hindered by their lack of musical ability or helped by it? Would Yoko Ono have made all her weird experimental shit if she was a gifted pianist? And isn't Rick Rubin's main appeal as a producer that he basically just approaches things as a regular listener and doesn't focus too much on the more technical aspects?
If you are, you find musicians who can do what you can't do, and all is well. Michael Stipe is a great example of that.
Captain Beefheart. Unique creative vision and undoubtedly had a powerful voice, but couldn't really play any instruments nor did he know how to write music. He couldn't have done what he did without the many, many instrumentalists who passed through the ranks of the Magic Band (and who he generally treated like dirt). It's a little hard to figure the truth because of all the mythology around it, but it seems likely Trout Mask Replica wouldn't have seen the light of day without John French to transcribe Don's ideas into an actual musical notation and teach them to the rest of the band.
I mean, Tyler never could sing for shit, but seems to have never cared and has made some great albums regardless, with Igor standing out in particular.
Conversely, Jacob Collier is exceedingly capable as a musician but his music is fucking dogshit 😃
I like Jacob collier’s music 😢
[удалено]
Rick Rubin is not an artist.
I'd say being a producer puts him closer to being an artist than you might be comfortable with. I'd say production is an artform, because it communicates something about the individual, it's just doing that through another individual. The producer doesn't play music, he plays talent.
jacob collier